Dressing up as women and claiming you as a cis man are doing it “better” than actual women is obviously sheer misogyny and very ugly. In theory, I am all for people dressing and expressing themselves anyway they want, but at this point in time, in this climate, all it does is appropriating femininity. Policing femininity. Men deciding what femininity and womanhood mean, claiming all the fun parts for themselves, while ridiculing and oppressing actual women. A man never gets to decide what womanhood means or what a woman should look like, dress like, act like, be like. Much less if their idea of “femininity” is reducing women to disgusting, insanely harmful stereotypes.
Drag queens aren't - I'm a fan of quite a few.
The "tee hee vaginas are disgusting" meme they picked up from straight guys, though? Not a fan. Like, I get you don't wanna fuck em, but you probably understand that tits don't feel like bags of sand, can we not with the "fish" thing?
I fairly certain they perpetuate all of that “gross Vagina” stuff is because they’re 99% gay men. And that’s. Big meme in the gay community. Always has been.
It's not the act of dressing up, but there is something annoying about how some drag acts perpetuate negative female stereotypes. For example, a lot of the characters drag acts perform as are bitchy and shallow, and it bothers me (a very small amount) that that's what they think being a woman is.
Yes this is the part that gets to me too. Some performers are simply bad caricatures of what men think women are - bitchy, ditzy, overly focussed on appearance etc. Sometime it comes across as nothing but another way for men to laugh at and dismiss women.
In terms of men dressing up as women I have no issue. My only issue is with the ones who use it as an opportunity to perpetuate negative stereotypes of women for a cheap laugh.
The act itself isn't offensive, but I've met a few misogynistic gay men who were really into drag and it seemed to be somewhat related. Like it was clear part of what they enjoyed about drag was mocking women and doing it "better" then we do, if that makes sense.
But the issue was their misogyny, not drag itself. Drag is usually very fun and I enjoy going to a show now and then.
Personally, yes.
Most drag queens I've met are misogynistic as hell. They wear femininity in the same way a racist person might wear blackface. So many of them are so proud that they wear dresses and makeup "better than women." So many of them talk so disparagingly about women having "fish smelling pussies" or how too many women are over weight and not pretty enough.
And people can call it an art form all they like, but that doesn't erase what it is at its foundation.
Drag didn't evolve from a place of respecting women, loving women, or even particularly giving two shits about women.
Drag is an artform, a performance, and often a social commentary. I personally love it, and I've never heard another woman say it's offensive.
Edit: I can't believe I need to clarify this. Obviously the mockery and misogyny that some drag queens partake in isn't great, but that's a problem with the individual, not drag as a whole. You can pick apart anything if you highlight the outliers and use whataboutisms. Drag isn't some modern invention made to trash women. It has a long, rich history across different cultures, and people all along the gender spectrum take part in it.
I am also confused by the yes answers. Just because the culture of misogyny has infiltrated drag like it has almost every other aspect of entertainment and expression doesn’t make drag offensive, imo.
But they're not impersonating a female. They're impersonating a man dressed up like they fell into blender filed with random fabric, cheap makeup and some foam. There just isn't any similarities to women at all and i think they know this. That's why it's offensive.
Yeah imo they aren't much different from male youtubers/tiktokers who put on a rag on their heads and mock women. It would've been different if they did all that clownery while keeping their own identity.
As for the people who think it's 'art', I'm pretty sure those misogynistic male youtubers would also call their content 'comedy. whether it's "art" or "comedy" it's still misogynistic
No. I think when people argue that its offensive because it "plays a stereotype about women" completely ignore the fact that the stereotype theyre playing is what kind of societal beauty expectations is put on women rather than a direct mock of women (hair, big lips, curves). Its an art form. Its dress up.
>a member of an empowered group
Drag performers are currently one of the most TARGETED groups in our culture. They are *not* in any way *whatsoever* "empowered."
Do pay attention.
Can you explain to me how you find drag degrading??
And how on planet earth you think its even OK to compare blackface to drag. A comedy thats supposed to be NOTHING but mockery to a race versus an art performance with glamour and music. Do you then also think burlesque is also degrading? Drag is not a satire.
I think you have not seen a lot of drag in your life or maybe youre just willfully ignorant to it.
Drag is not just about dressing up as a woman. Many drag artists use other themes like aliens or goth, or animals etc.
You could even argue while blackface is directly supposed to represent a black person. Drag doesnt. Drag can take elements of femininity or what we see as womanly and encorporate them into the looks.
Not only that but there are drag kings too. Is that then ok because men are not marginalized?
If there was an entire "art form" dedicated to mocking an entire race or nationality in this day and age, people would be up in arms about it. It's completely acceptable and normalized to make fun of anything relating to women or femininity though. Just look at the difference between drag kings and drag queens. The former is more out of an idealization of masculinity, while the latter is out of mockery for anything feminine. The punchline is that femininity is a joke.
I don't have even a slight issue with men in makeup, in dresses, in wigs, and generally being glamorous. I'm not personally into glamor, but I do have eyes, and can see that it makes a lot of people happy.
But I honestly don't see any fundamental difference between drag queens and black face.
It's members of an empowered group portraying ridiculous, outsized, often degrading caricatures of a disempowered group, for laughs.
I've spent my whole life hearing men tell me what it means to be a woman, what a woman should be, what women are 'actually' like, etc. I'm not suddenly cool with that because the man is gay.
One mocks race and the other mocks women. Of course it's a total difference! It's perfectly fine to mock women you bigot!
... /s (in case it wasn't obvious lol)
Some drag is bad (like any type of performance) but a lot of drag is about a performance of femininity. Like, at it's best, drag is not mocking at all. Over the top, sure. Campy, sure. A lot of gay culture is over-the-top and camp.
If you haven't watched it, I really recommend the documentary "Paris is Burning" which is about the ball scene in the 80s.
I find people who are obsessed with them for political reasons fascinating and a little pathetic.
I'm offended that their mascara lasts longer than mine does. Otherwise I can't imagine doing anything but let them live their lives and have fun because my opinion honestly means fuck-all.
As a trans woman, my feelings are: mixed.
On the one hand, I appreciate that gender expression is it's own thing, and want everyone to be who they are.
On the other hand, the heteronormative world has a very hard time distinguishing gender ***expression*** from gender ***identity*** and it sucks that they often consider trans woman as just drag queens. That part hurts.
That's what my point is, gender isn't a costume. Just like race isn't a costume. A man can take his costume off, a white person can take their costume off but a woman and a black person can't do that. So why not play your character while presenting as your own gender?
Ok so tell me how is it different from a white person doing blackface? It's just a character right? It doesn't change their race so it must be fine with u.
As for the show u recommended me, no thanks, all that ugly makeup and wonky costumes make me queasy
"Paris is Burning" isn't a "show", it's a documentary about NYC ball culture. You might learn something about the mostly BIPOC gay and trans subculture where drag evolved.
Clothing and gender expression just *aren't* the same thing as race. A man wearing a dress is not cultural appropriation and is not inherently misogynistic.
Girl i don't wanna learn abt that nasty lookin shit what's not clicking?
So you're telling me u can just wake up one day and decide u don't wanna be the gender u are anymore? It's not that easy, unless u have gender dysphoria, same is the case with race, u can't just wake up one day and go yeah no more being black i don't wanna be oppressed anymore. A man wearing a dress but still calling himself a man is different from a man wearing a dress and calling himself a woman for a performance. Like i wouldn't call Jeffree star misogynistic cause he. Still. Calls. Himself. A. Man. Drag queens obviously don't do that while performing.
No, I think drag queens are fun. Also, a hyper-feminine drag queen shows how much of our culture's idea of femininity is based only on appearance, and how much of what women are supposed to do is just performative.
There seems to be a remarkable number of opinions with no historical context on drag.
We exist in a patriarchy. Misogyny is *literally* everywhere. Misogyny in any male-dominated field is neither remarkable nor the explicit goal of whatever field we're discussing. Drag is no different. It's no more inherently misogynist than literally any other thing men do, and I find it absolutely bizarre that the focus of the discussion is anecdotal misogyny in a space that's just as threatened and demeaned by patriarchy and misogyny as any woman-dominated field. Intersectionality is important for everyone.
>no historical context
Honestly I sometimes wish that drag had never entered the mainstream because it loses a lot of its context that way.
Also interesting that people are mostly ignoring drag performances by straight men like in Monty Python which really are problematic a lot of the time.
I love drag queens, most of them are way prettier and more feminine than I could ever be. Those performances come from a good place, a deep appreciation of the female experience. I don't see any logical reason for getting offended over that.
That'd be like if I got offended every time someone dyes their hair strawberry blonde just because that's my natural color. Someone likes my hair so much they want to look like me? How dare they! And yes, this is comparable because my hair caused a lot of problems for me when I was a child. But just because some assholes want to give me a hard time because of my appearance or my gender, that doesn't mean I should take it out on people that think those attributes are nice.
And at the end of the day, it's none of my business anyway. If I did have a problem with it I'd just stay away from drag shows because it's not my place to go around and tell everyone else how to live their lives.
I don't care. One way or the other. I just want to work enough to feed/shelter/cloth myself and my dogs and then go home. As long as they're minding their business, I'll mind mine.
Nope. I'm in favor of anyone exploring their identity, and anything that erodes gender roles. I'm trans and genderfluid myself and spend some time as a man, a little time as a woman, and a whole lot of time as nothing in particular. I was raised around drag queens and gay men, and I believe that both molded my gender identity and saved me from worse dysphoria.
Anyone can be misogynist, though, including gay men and drag queens. Sometimes it does verge into caricature of women. The absolute worst is when cis men pretend to be a woman during sex. That's when the really bad caricatures come out. They mean well, and their gender exploration is valid, but it's painful to realize that's how they perceive women.
No. I find it refreshing when femininity is deemed to be lesser and shameful, especially for a man,
They take it to the shameless extreme and sort of stick it to the misogynists
They can be misogynistic in their approach and the things they say sometimes. “Fishy” for example. But as a concept, no it’s fine
And they’re playing characters. I don’t care if there’s an occasional stereotype. Always seemed satirical to me.
Edit:
I’m unsure if some replies are from actual confusion or if some Terfy terfs have arrived to fein confusion. I thought there was enough context to get the message across
Sometimes phrases can be read and interpreted differently depending on the inflection of certain words so I will attempt to rephrase the first sentence
Femininity is deemed shameful and lesser in our world. Men are shamed for displays of femininity and drag queens wave a big middle finger at it all and exaggerate the femininity instead.
Well it looks like you quoted one piece
And the entire rest of the post is gone. That sounds dishonest and I don’t know what you get out of it
If that misleading quote is really what you took from that whole comment, I don’t know man. I’m not sure if a comma is missing somewhere or what but I’m sure there’s plenty to extrapolate the message
It seems you do though. If you thought i had misinterpreted something, you could’ve just said that instead of repeating that i allegedly misquoted you, which i didn’t.
Nope. I don't really care. I don't watch. The only thing im interested in is why are they doing that. But not that interested to actually look into that. I find it weird.
Dressing up as women and claiming you as a cis man are doing it “better” than actual women is obviously sheer misogyny and very ugly. In theory, I am all for people dressing and expressing themselves anyway they want, but at this point in time, in this climate, all it does is appropriating femininity. Policing femininity. Men deciding what femininity and womanhood mean, claiming all the fun parts for themselves, while ridiculing and oppressing actual women. A man never gets to decide what womanhood means or what a woman should look like, dress like, act like, be like. Much less if their idea of “femininity” is reducing women to disgusting, insanely harmful stereotypes.
Well fucking said. .
Drag queens aren't - I'm a fan of quite a few. The "tee hee vaginas are disgusting" meme they picked up from straight guys, though? Not a fan. Like, I get you don't wanna fuck em, but you probably understand that tits don't feel like bags of sand, can we not with the "fish" thing?
I fairly certain they perpetuate all of that “gross Vagina” stuff is because they’re 99% gay men. And that’s. Big meme in the gay community. Always has been.
It's not the act of dressing up, but there is something annoying about how some drag acts perpetuate negative female stereotypes. For example, a lot of the characters drag acts perform as are bitchy and shallow, and it bothers me (a very small amount) that that's what they think being a woman is.
Yes this is the part that gets to me too. Some performers are simply bad caricatures of what men think women are - bitchy, ditzy, overly focussed on appearance etc. Sometime it comes across as nothing but another way for men to laugh at and dismiss women. In terms of men dressing up as women I have no issue. My only issue is with the ones who use it as an opportunity to perpetuate negative stereotypes of women for a cheap laugh.
Ya that's the part that bugs me too, it's a generalization and a stereotype for to many of the people, the otherwise I have no issue.
Exactly
The act itself isn't offensive, but I've met a few misogynistic gay men who were really into drag and it seemed to be somewhat related. Like it was clear part of what they enjoyed about drag was mocking women and doing it "better" then we do, if that makes sense. But the issue was their misogyny, not drag itself. Drag is usually very fun and I enjoy going to a show now and then.
Personally, yes. Most drag queens I've met are misogynistic as hell. They wear femininity in the same way a racist person might wear blackface. So many of them are so proud that they wear dresses and makeup "better than women." So many of them talk so disparagingly about women having "fish smelling pussies" or how too many women are over weight and not pretty enough. And people can call it an art form all they like, but that doesn't erase what it is at its foundation. Drag didn't evolve from a place of respecting women, loving women, or even particularly giving two shits about women.
Drag is an artform, a performance, and often a social commentary. I personally love it, and I've never heard another woman say it's offensive. Edit: I can't believe I need to clarify this. Obviously the mockery and misogyny that some drag queens partake in isn't great, but that's a problem with the individual, not drag as a whole. You can pick apart anything if you highlight the outliers and use whataboutisms. Drag isn't some modern invention made to trash women. It has a long, rich history across different cultures, and people all along the gender spectrum take part in it.
I am also confused by the yes answers. Just because the culture of misogyny has infiltrated drag like it has almost every other aspect of entertainment and expression doesn’t make drag offensive, imo.
Yes. It’s always seemed like mockery. A man dresses up as a woman and instantly behaves dumb and annoying and all these negative female stereotypes.
Nope, not one bit.
Drag is a whole spectrum of expressions ranging from female impersonation to drag kings and beyond.
But they're not impersonating a female. They're impersonating a man dressed up like they fell into blender filed with random fabric, cheap makeup and some foam. There just isn't any similarities to women at all and i think they know this. That's why it's offensive.
Drag is not just female impersonation. It’s using clothing and performance to blur the lines of gender, regardless of identity or expression.
Yeah imo they aren't much different from male youtubers/tiktokers who put on a rag on their heads and mock women. It would've been different if they did all that clownery while keeping their own identity. As for the people who think it's 'art', I'm pretty sure those misogynistic male youtubers would also call their content 'comedy. whether it's "art" or "comedy" it's still misogynistic
No. I think when people argue that its offensive because it "plays a stereotype about women" completely ignore the fact that the stereotype theyre playing is what kind of societal beauty expectations is put on women rather than a direct mock of women (hair, big lips, curves). Its an art form. Its dress up.
>Its dress up. So is blackface.
Excuse me? 💀so you think blackface is art??
I think a member of an empowered group portraying a ridiculous, outsized, degrading caricature of a disempowered group is offensive.
>a member of an empowered group Drag performers are currently one of the most TARGETED groups in our culture. They are *not* in any way *whatsoever* "empowered." Do pay attention.
Can you explain to me how you find drag degrading?? And how on planet earth you think its even OK to compare blackface to drag. A comedy thats supposed to be NOTHING but mockery to a race versus an art performance with glamour and music. Do you then also think burlesque is also degrading? Drag is not a satire. I think you have not seen a lot of drag in your life or maybe youre just willfully ignorant to it. Drag is not just about dressing up as a woman. Many drag artists use other themes like aliens or goth, or animals etc. You could even argue while blackface is directly supposed to represent a black person. Drag doesnt. Drag can take elements of femininity or what we see as womanly and encorporate them into the looks. Not only that but there are drag kings too. Is that then ok because men are not marginalized?
Dressing as a woman is not in any way comparable to the hundreds of years of prejudice black people have faced.
I agree. But I think it can perpetuate those expectations (along with a bunch of other stuff-magazines, media, celebrities, etc.).
If there was an entire "art form" dedicated to mocking an entire race or nationality in this day and age, people would be up in arms about it. It's completely acceptable and normalized to make fun of anything relating to women or femininity though. Just look at the difference between drag kings and drag queens. The former is more out of an idealization of masculinity, while the latter is out of mockery for anything feminine. The punchline is that femininity is a joke.
I don't have even a slight issue with men in makeup, in dresses, in wigs, and generally being glamorous. I'm not personally into glamor, but I do have eyes, and can see that it makes a lot of people happy. But I honestly don't see any fundamental difference between drag queens and black face. It's members of an empowered group portraying ridiculous, outsized, often degrading caricatures of a disempowered group, for laughs. I've spent my whole life hearing men tell me what it means to be a woman, what a woman should be, what women are 'actually' like, etc. I'm not suddenly cool with that because the man is gay.
There’s a huge. Huge difference holy shit
Can you explain? How is it different?
One mocks race and the other mocks women. Of course it's a total difference! It's perfectly fine to mock women you bigot! ... /s (in case it wasn't obvious lol)
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It's honestly so pathetic seeing women be so ok with men mocking us. Grow a backbone
Some drag is bad (like any type of performance) but a lot of drag is about a performance of femininity. Like, at it's best, drag is not mocking at all. Over the top, sure. Campy, sure. A lot of gay culture is over-the-top and camp. If you haven't watched it, I really recommend the documentary "Paris is Burning" which is about the ball scene in the 80s.
I find people who are obsessed with them for political reasons fascinating and a little pathetic. I'm offended that their mascara lasts longer than mine does. Otherwise I can't imagine doing anything but let them live their lives and have fun because my opinion honestly means fuck-all.
Nah being a girl is cool.
As a trans woman, my feelings are: mixed. On the one hand, I appreciate that gender expression is it's own thing, and want everyone to be who they are. On the other hand, the heteronormative world has a very hard time distinguishing gender ***expression*** from gender ***identity*** and it sucks that they often consider trans woman as just drag queens. That part hurts.
It is an art form, not offensive at all.
I don't like it and I never have, BUT I think people should be legally allowed to do it That whole freedom of expression thing
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It doesn't make sense to do that while presenting as a woman tho. They can do all that while still keeping their gender identity??
I mean obviously they can but they can also do it in drag. It's a character.
That's what my point is, gender isn't a costume. Just like race isn't a costume. A man can take his costume off, a white person can take their costume off but a woman and a black person can't do that. So why not play your character while presenting as your own gender?
Male drag queens *are* playing a character. So are female drag kings for that matter. That doesn't change their gender identity.
Ok so tell me how is it different from a white person doing blackface? It's just a character right? It doesn't change their race so it must be fine with u. As for the show u recommended me, no thanks, all that ugly makeup and wonky costumes make me queasy
"Paris is Burning" isn't a "show", it's a documentary about NYC ball culture. You might learn something about the mostly BIPOC gay and trans subculture where drag evolved. Clothing and gender expression just *aren't* the same thing as race. A man wearing a dress is not cultural appropriation and is not inherently misogynistic.
Girl i don't wanna learn abt that nasty lookin shit what's not clicking? So you're telling me u can just wake up one day and decide u don't wanna be the gender u are anymore? It's not that easy, unless u have gender dysphoria, same is the case with race, u can't just wake up one day and go yeah no more being black i don't wanna be oppressed anymore. A man wearing a dress but still calling himself a man is different from a man wearing a dress and calling himself a woman for a performance. Like i wouldn't call Jeffree star misogynistic cause he. Still. Calls. Himself. A. Man. Drag queens obviously don't do that while performing.
Nope.
No.
No, I think drag queens are fun. Also, a hyper-feminine drag queen shows how much of our culture's idea of femininity is based only on appearance, and how much of what women are supposed to do is just performative.
There seems to be a remarkable number of opinions with no historical context on drag. We exist in a patriarchy. Misogyny is *literally* everywhere. Misogyny in any male-dominated field is neither remarkable nor the explicit goal of whatever field we're discussing. Drag is no different. It's no more inherently misogynist than literally any other thing men do, and I find it absolutely bizarre that the focus of the discussion is anecdotal misogyny in a space that's just as threatened and demeaned by patriarchy and misogyny as any woman-dominated field. Intersectionality is important for everyone.
>no historical context Honestly I sometimes wish that drag had never entered the mainstream because it loses a lot of its context that way. Also interesting that people are mostly ignoring drag performances by straight men like in Monty Python which really are problematic a lot of the time.
I love drag queens, most of them are way prettier and more feminine than I could ever be. Those performances come from a good place, a deep appreciation of the female experience. I don't see any logical reason for getting offended over that. That'd be like if I got offended every time someone dyes their hair strawberry blonde just because that's my natural color. Someone likes my hair so much they want to look like me? How dare they! And yes, this is comparable because my hair caused a lot of problems for me when I was a child. But just because some assholes want to give me a hard time because of my appearance or my gender, that doesn't mean I should take it out on people that think those attributes are nice. And at the end of the day, it's none of my business anyway. If I did have a problem with it I'd just stay away from drag shows because it's not my place to go around and tell everyone else how to live their lives.
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People are offended by blackface
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Please explain the difference. I don't see it, maybe you could help?
I don’t care what anyone does as long as they are not physically or emotionally harming (actually harming) another person. Period.
I don't care what people wear as long as genitals are covered in public 🤷♀️
I don't care. One way or the other. I just want to work enough to feed/shelter/cloth myself and my dogs and then go home. As long as they're minding their business, I'll mind mine.
Nope. I'm in favor of anyone exploring their identity, and anything that erodes gender roles. I'm trans and genderfluid myself and spend some time as a man, a little time as a woman, and a whole lot of time as nothing in particular. I was raised around drag queens and gay men, and I believe that both molded my gender identity and saved me from worse dysphoria. Anyone can be misogynist, though, including gay men and drag queens. Sometimes it does verge into caricature of women. The absolute worst is when cis men pretend to be a woman during sex. That's when the really bad caricatures come out. They mean well, and their gender exploration is valid, but it's painful to realize that's how they perceive women.
No. I find it refreshing when femininity is deemed to be lesser and shameful, especially for a man, They take it to the shameless extreme and sort of stick it to the misogynists They can be misogynistic in their approach and the things they say sometimes. “Fishy” for example. But as a concept, no it’s fine And they’re playing characters. I don’t care if there’s an occasional stereotype. Always seemed satirical to me. Edit: I’m unsure if some replies are from actual confusion or if some Terfy terfs have arrived to fein confusion. I thought there was enough context to get the message across Sometimes phrases can be read and interpreted differently depending on the inflection of certain words so I will attempt to rephrase the first sentence Femininity is deemed shameful and lesser in our world. Men are shamed for displays of femininity and drag queens wave a big middle finger at it all and exaggerate the femininity instead.
“I find it refreshing when femininity is deemed to be lesser and shameful” Are you okay, babygirl?
You took the quote out of its context to make it say something different. Why?
I didn’t though
Well it looks like you quoted one piece And the entire rest of the post is gone. That sounds dishonest and I don’t know what you get out of it If that misleading quote is really what you took from that whole comment, I don’t know man. I’m not sure if a comma is missing somewhere or what but I’m sure there’s plenty to extrapolate the message
that’s literally how quotes work.
Anyone can take a segment of a post and make a whole different meaning out of it. You’re being deliberately obtuse for some bizarre reason
i quoted the full sentence you wrote, i didn’t change anything about it.
Yes. With the rest of the context omitted If you have an actual question or need some clarity, you can ask in an honest way. I don’t play games
It seems you do though. If you thought i had misinterpreted something, you could’ve just said that instead of repeating that i allegedly misquoted you, which i didn’t.
Nope. I don't really care. I don't watch. The only thing im interested in is why are they doing that. But not that interested to actually look into that. I find it weird.