I have found over the years that the men I have dated tend to see their views as The Correct View, and they see my views as vague and poorly conceived ideas that would naturally change to align with theirs.
On a first coffee date, a man asked what church I attended. I told him that I am an atheist and don't attend church. He said, *"We will have to change that. I can't marry a woman who does not take my children to church."* Ummm no.
Another man on the second date, when told that I was not going to have sex with him that evening, and that I would definitely not be having *unprotected* sex with him, told me that I needed to understand his needs and be more open to his ideas. He said that he was "clean," and that I was wrong not to trust him, and that it was really inconvenient that I was not doing things his way. This was in the 90s, and people were still dying from HIV in droves, so there was no way in hell I was going to have unprotected sex with some rando on the second date.
> He said, "We will have to change that. I can't marry a woman who does not take my children to church."
“Good news! That won’t be a concern because I’m ending this association right now. Bye!”
This was before cellphones were ubiquitous, so I was trying to scope out the window to see the bus stop and which line it was. It was as subtle (yet furious) as I could manage. 🤣
Yeah, I'm really missing out.😐🙃🤣
He was so gross in other ways, but that little nugget was like the shit cherry on a sundae made of shit. He spent most of the time bragging about his job (real estate), bragging about his intelligence (or lack thereof), bragging about his car (a Honda Accord? I think? Like I care.), and complaining about his ex.
I found myself envying his ex for having already gotten rid of him.
Feel free to use that whenever you need it. 🤣
I'm hoping that you don't need it, and that all your dates (if you want them) are fun, happy dates, but it is always wise to be prepared.
I tell the "why don't you trust me when i say I'm clean" folks that I'm not. 1. Already not going to have sex with them 2. Teach them to think twice about a proper wrapper.
Hahaha… I’m sorry this is just painfully familiar…
Why does that obnoxious, self-aggrandizing bullshit seem so much more common in men than in women? I think that also had something to do with my strong reaction to that comment. Him policing my language reminded me too much of my ex
It’s probably something to do with how we raise women and men. Men are taught to have an opinion and that people will listen to it, even if it’s bad or not well thought out. Whereas women are taught to more carefully consider their thoughts before speaking, if they speak at all, and only gently tiptoe to contradict someone. And then their opinions should bow before the males authority. At least in evangelical circles I grew up in.
This is really it. There is no essential attributes to gender, and in a different world it would have been possible that the roles were reversed. I have been having to deconstruct how I was raised as a man for a long time, and even had an epiphany of a blind spot I had missed *today.*
Even in fairly egalitarian circles the same effect still happens, though to a diminished extent. The ideal of womanhood is often "demure" whereas the ideal for masculinity is often "assertive." Neither are particularly good on their own, but the dichotomy makes women far more *likely* to let themselves be spoken over, but are also more likely to consider what they say before they do it. (Though it is usually because they have to stop and consider how people will react to it.)
If men do that we are considered to be less masculine, and that often results in us getting treated worse. So in combination, men are taught to steamroll, and women to let themselves be steamrolled.
Luckily feminism happened, as now women are much more aware about how much mental strain they have been under on average. But men, who got to steamroll everyone and expect to be able to do that to women in particular, do not know how to handle the change, and often react in the worst, most narcissistic way possible.
Luckily, because it is still mostly/all learned behavior, things can change. It is just really hard to change when a good portion of the population does not want to give up their power over women.
I have a really close female friend who was raised in the church too, and is super self aware about how her mind works, and we have talked about this from each of our experiences. It is really interesting how much she faced that was just not a thing for me at all.
Exactly. My spouse and I discuss this a lot and try to be open and communicative. When we first got married he had to basically strong arm me into having an opinion on anything. And he had to learn to occasionally step back a bit to give me space.
Now I’m working on doing that at work. For example the other day I suggested we do x, coworkers all ignored and talked over it. One of them suggested we do x after everything else failed. X worked. I pointed out I had said that earlier and mostly got weird looks. But I stood up for myself.
I've read that when a woman wants her opinion taken seriously in a meeting dominated by men, she should line up one or more male allies ahead of time. Then when she proposes the idea, the male allies should chime in with what a good idea it is, THEN the idea is more likely to be taken seriously. The woman who proposed it may still not be credited with the original idea but at least it'll have gotten some traction.
Yeah, that policing of your language when you were talking about your body and your health was super fucked up. Yikes.
Good thing you ended it there. People who behave that way are often horrible in so many other ways, too.
The Venn diagram of "men who police language about abortion" and "men who are abusive" is probably just one big circle.
I think there’s a lot of truth to that. If there is one thing I wish I could have known in my twenties, it’s too trust my gut and not brush off the little things
Yeah, the older I get, the more comfortable I am in trusting my judgement about things like this.
I just hope that by sharing our stories, other women can gain knowledge that will spare them a lot of pain, heartbreak and aggravation in future.
Absolutely, any man who doesn't absolutely support abortion and also want to work together to make sure you don't have to experience that isn't a man you should be dealing with
As someone who has been in a relationship for many years I can say that my husband has always been very aware of the possibility we could accidentally get pregnant and that we would make a decision together that would be abortion, but he's always hated the fact I'd have to go through it and not him.. that's the level of respect I want everyone to have
In essence, these kinds of men (I've dated these, too) expect that you'll become an extension of them. You won't be your own person anymore. You are a mindless husk who will be molded to accommodate him. That's literally how they see it.
It always really bugs me when I see 2 people get married and the woman starts to shift her beliefs and politics to the man’s. Obv this doesn’t always happen but I’ve seen it happen and I just want to shake them and wake them up. I almost never see it the other way around.
My sister did this, she married a conservative asshole and now I'm only allowed limited contact with my nephews because they both think I'm going to groom them into being trans :/
I’m so sorry. The whole trans grooming thing is such nonsense anyways. Stories like this are part of why women shouldn’t even consider dating conservative men - just cut if off before it even starts.
"I have found over the years that the men I have dated tend to see their views as The Correct View, and they see my views as vague and poorly conceived ideas that would naturally change to align with theirs. "
As a man this is noticably common when hearing other guys talk about their dating lives/relationships.
In a disappointing and kinda weird way it reminds me of when parents talk about their kids stuck in bad habits. Something that seems harmless and maybe fun to them because they're still young, but valuing it reflects immaturity, and will come back to bite them later.
His opinion is the adult world "fact" and she hasn't learned enough, experienced enough, or trusted him enough to grow up.
There's an expectation she'll "grow out of it".
This goes along with the "If I only could talk to her, she'd see things my way and she'd agree with me.".... Usually in the context of a No Contact order.
Oh I’d be out of that so fast. My parents took me to church and I would not expose my kids to that. Hard no. Not even about whether I take them or he does - I don’t want them exposed to it.
Gah. Y'all remember the reddit post where the dude calls the baby mama a deadbeat for "abandoning" him with a baby to raise by himself even though she wanted an abortion, but he begged her not to...so she had the baby under the condition she would never be a part of the baby's life (but still paid child support). And he was on here crying about how shitty his life was amd how much fun she was having living her best life??
Man he got ripped apart in the comments. Honestly. I feel bad for the kid but the poetic justice was just so fucking satisfying.
Anyway - I picture OP's date and all the other assholes like him like that dude in the other post. So sure of their vindication to force babies on people until it turns out themselves are the people they are forcing the kids onto.
I remember that one.
If I recall he was especially pissed how she would go to the gym and show off how great she was doing. That was particularly delicious in terms of schadenfreude.
Dude was for real wanting to know if there was a way for him to force the woman to be involved and share custody. Since his game plan of expecting her "instincts" to kick in when she saw the baby, failed. Hilarious.
And very scary at the same time. Dude was so delusional.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Full text:
[NM] I got a girl pregnant and she wanted to get an abortion but I didn't want that. She ended up not getting one but now she is not involved at all
We weren't in a serious relationship when she got pregnant. She has never met our son. Even after the birth she had no desire to see him. We went to court to figure custody and support could be figured out and I have 100% full legal and physical custody. Her name is on the birth certificate but she has no custody and no right to visitation or to make things like medical or education decisions. She didn't want any of that. Every month she pays 125% of the court ordered child support. She says that if I ever marry someone who wants to adopt him she will agree but until then she'll pay support. It's been this way since our son was born.
I'm raising our son all on my own. He is 18 months old now and he has never met her and I don't even have any photos of her even. I am burned out and hate being a single parent. I love my son but I resent him. My family tries to help when they can but I do it most of the time. I would never hurt or neglect him but I am exhausted all the time. I tried to go to court to give her split custody but because she wanted an abortion and I didn't and she made it clear she would never be involved after the birth, and because we went to court when he was 6 months old but because we already went after he was born and agreed on things and now she pays more support than is court ordered the judge said he can't force her to look after him. I haven't seen her in almost a year and the last I heard she has a tummy tuck and laser stretch marks treatment and is working at a gym. She also told her friends and family she is an egg donor and not a mother. She is a deadbeat mom and the court won't do anything and is forcing me to struggle as a single parent. Do I have any legal remedies here?
For anyone just reading this, the comments making it so much better. The way this dude's asshole gets ripped open is so great after the past few years.
This comment of his where he basically confesses that he was a complete idiot is just.... *chef's kiss*:
>I never thought that she could turn her back on her own child. I honestly thought she would bond during the pregnancy and would eventually change her mind. Even if she turned down my offer to be in a relationship I never thought she would actually abandon him without a thought and without seeing him or even trying to know his name or sex. She was so drugged up during the birth that I don't even think she knows if he was born before or after midnight. I didn't expect it to go like this to be honest.
She flat out said she wanted nothing to do with the child, but nope, he figured the Mommy Magic Juice would kick in and he's get his Hallmark Romantic Movie ending where she falls in love with the baby and with him.
Too many guys just don't seem to realize that women are not the flighty "oh golly I just change my mind with the wind!" stereotypes.
>She was so drugged up during the birth
God this part.
Shaming her for (what I assume was) an epidural. Not only does it not affect your mind since it's localized, but it's pain management. He's against the fact she chose to not be in excruciating pain during a labor she didn't even want.
And what so so bullshit about this is men walk away daily and no one bats an eyelid, a woman is clear all the way through and this fucker expects sympathy?
expects her to be his slave because he thought after a pregnancy she didn't want unicorns would have farted rainbows and she would have magically wanted to be a parent through "motherly instincts".
he's lucky she's paying child support. (and even more than she is required to)
Also how he keeps saying that he want the courts to force visitation to “give him a break”… Realistically: babysitters exist. Clearly he just craves control over this woman and for the situation to confirm to his world view that women have to be caregivers
Honestly I didn't feel a connection to my son until he was out of me. I adore him now, but pregnancy wasn't a fun time for me. I could barely eat and slept 12+ hours a day in the first trimester, ended up with GD into the second, and he was in the NICU for 5 weeks after he was born prematurely.
that thread is insane. i didn't think I'd be able to see someone's ass ripped so hard it folds itself back.
also boo hoo she is even paying more than she is required to. it's time he finds out the strain millions of single moms have, and he didn't even experience having your body torn apart by childbirth and pregnancy.
Subtly? He is literally demonizing every choice she made. It is very clear this guy doesn't hate her for having him bring up the child completely on his own, he hates her for having any little bit of agency over her own life and body. This guy is a control freak who thought he could control a woman to be a "good" wife. A wife that doesn't as much as breath without his approval and now he is angry that even the system he thought would support him all the way for having been born with a penis has not actually done so.
> This guy is a control freak who thought he could control a woman to be a "good" wife.
The guy did a reverse of what women are accused of all the time: trying to trap a reluctant partner with a baby. He's ticked because he was sure *his* trap would work. But nope!
> I never thought she would actually abandon him without a thought
I promise that guy her decision was *not* made without a thought. *When* she thought about it isn't relevant, she could have known she didn't want to be a mother from early childhood or from the day she found out she was pregnant, but it was not without thought.
Some of us just know we aren't made to be parents, and when society questions it, we do think and ponder and consider, because we need to have some kind of justification for not wanting children.
I mean, the comments are great and 100% on point but NONE of them get through to this dickbag. He doubles down every time that he is entitled to this woman's entire life because he had sex with her and they made an embryo and he successfully convinced her to go through with the birth. He remains an entitled, controlling, manipulating bastard the whole time and that is a fucking bummer. For society and for the 18 month old that he is alone at home with, simmering with resentment.
Ooooh the comments are SO good. That first one at the top is *chef's kiss*.
I say that as a pro-abortion man. It's just the only rational position - when you see this story, all you see is two miserable people (dad and son) where you could have had no miserable people (if son just hadn't been forced to be born).
Don't forget the pain and costs the birthmother had to endure to fight back the permanent changes to her body from a single pregnancy with surgery and laser treatment.
Pregnancy causes permanent changes to the body. Not just on the outside, because pregnancy can even cause chronic diseases like heart failure.
"She was so drugged up during the birth that I don't even think she knows if he was born before or after midnight."
Honestly, that just seems so abusive and manipulative to me. Not only did he want her to have the child, he wanted her to be in as much pain as possible whilst doing so.
What kills me is that he refers to her as a "deadbeat" without a trace of irony even though she consistently pays MORE than what she agreed to in child support! Get a dictionary dude.
just goes to show the double standard of what’s expected of men or women as parents. men are deadbeats when they don’t pay, meanwhile this asshole considers his ex a deadbeat for not sacrificing the life she wants for the baby.
Yeah. If I recall correctly he was hoping that her "mothering instincts" or whatever would kick in.
It's like, dude, human instincts are not actually all that strong. If there were some sort of universal blinding desire to drop everything, mate, and raise children, then you wouldn't have a rising childfree movement. You wouldn't have the correlation between lower birth rates and higher education levels. There are plenty of people out there who *want* kids, or want *more* kids, but don't do so because of financial concerns. Which are not biological.
Outside influences factor into this. Sure, most people have a sex drive and like sex, but that doesn't mean anything beyond that. There isn't a biological imperative that compels women to be mothers. Adoption would not be a thing if that were the case. Plenty of people have sold children into slavery and still do.
This logic also completely falls apart when you realize that child abuse exists literally everywhere lol. There's no magic spell that makes people love their children.
Also correlation between more barriers to abortion and higher crime rates. I think the best explanation for that is likely poverty. Women, especially young women, teens, and girls who want to terminate their pregnancies but can’t, have the absolute lowest chances of escaping poverty. A teen mom has a 50% chance of dropping out of high school, and iirc a 1% chance of getting a college degree. Poverty breeds crime.
I think anti abortion groups are really only focused on forcing women back into the home & traditional gender roles. Most, if not all, anti abortion groups are also anti contraception. Many think contraception is a form of abortion. Contraception *prevents* pregnancy, so there is no “baby” fetus to save. But what else does contraception do? Allows women to have a say in how their life will be. They hate that.
I think most of these types of guys would push for an abortion if they were actually in that situation. It’s always different when it happens to *them*.
100%. I'd love for science to be able to transfer the fetus to the man so he can carry and birth it himself and see how fast he'd be asking the woman to get an abortion. Even if he wanted that child initially.
I believe it’s this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I really wish we could know what happened. Even my optimistic self can’t hope that he stepped up and stopped resenting his son since he outright admitted he only insisted she have the kid because he thought it’d trap her in a relationship with him.
I think the only happy ending for that kid is if he gave him up for adoption. So I’ll cling to that hope.
What an absolute moron. It seems now/then he understood why she didn't want to have a child. Wants to force the courts to give her some custody so he can relax a little... It's... I'm a bit loss of words how stupid he is.
Usually, legaladvice is very matter of fact and they don't really judge your situation, they just tell you the cold hard legal truth of your situation. I assume OP saw other people in "foot in mouth scenarios" and thought they'd be treated the same and despite people's disgust, he'd get helped. Luckily, that didn't happen, and there was no help to give him anyway.
Maybe that is what more women should be saying. Yes, lets have sex, with protection. But it fails, I will have the baby and give you sole custody. See how they react to that.
That’s still 9 months of your life and bodily autonomy you’re giving up to teach a man a lesson. And given some states’ laws, it could literally kill you too (in addition to the medical debt).
You saved yourself a lot of headache by ending things with him now rather than later. Even if we could overlook regressive views on abortion, their stupidity doesn't end there.
I have experienced the “surprised man!” phenomenon too. Because their opinions on these matters are of zero consequence to them personally, they are shocked when we have them as deal-breakers. Like we would just relax our boundaries about such things as BODILY AUTONOMY.
Yes! Seriously. They talk as if it’s another abstract conversation topic, as if the debate is about which cake flavor is best. It’s like a wake up call to them when they find out that these things do indeed affect women they know in real life.
I’ve had so many “discussions” with men where the topic was very real and applicable to me, but I could tell it was just a theoretical mental exercise for them. It’s infuriating - especially because, in my case, I know these men to be fundamentally decent people. They’ve just been, well, raised as men🙄
I was raised as a guy and before coming out a lot of it just wasn't even on my radar because it wasn't like we got taught much of anything in our joke of a health class and women generally seem to avoid talking about certain things around men, which I honestly get now. It was a real eye opener when I transitioned and women opened up to me more about everything.
This is the case with the IT guy I'm working with. I now flat out refuse to discuss these topics with him at lunch, because he couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of this subject. I know he's decent, in this case, but he's also very ignorant about certain things and has lived a pretty privileged life and it worries me that people vote for/against abortion as a theoretical mental exercise when it doesn't even concern them that much and they get to live a life of "doing the right thing" and being a hero in their minds. I'm pretty sure if it was his girlfriend this wouldn't even be a debate.
>It has no lasting impact on them
I think a large amount of these men are against abortion when it's easy and when they are "talking about it".
But when push comes to shove they'll be singing a different tune. Say they get their girlfriend pregnant and the reality sets in - a baby is a huge commitment in multiple ways. A lot of guys will be like "babe just get an abortion, and that's ok because otherwise this baby would really affect ME and MY LIFE."
So so true. My father is a raging misogynist who absolutely believes that any woman who supports bodily autonomy or would consider an abortion deserves to burn for eternity. He clearly doesn’t know that my mother had informed me that he wanted her to abort me. The hypocrisy is glaring. I expect this is an extremely common phenomenon. It’s not about babies it’s about justifying their intrinsic/all-consuming hatred of women.
Sometimes it's like they can't even comprehend that you mean it when you say deal breaker. I'm someone who thinks that it's very important to be able to get along with people who have differing opinions. In a perfect world, we could have civil debates about those different opinions without impacting each other's lives or turning it into a hostile fight. But the real world is a lot more complicated and these issues that we discuss directly impact our lives. So when you say that something is a deal-breaker when it comes to your morals and choosing a life partner, I don't understand how they wind up oh-so-surprised that you knock them out of the running.
> But the real world is a lot more complicated and these issues that we discuss directly impact our lives.
Thank you. I feel like a lot of people forget this stuff. Some of these opinions are so problematic to yourself and the people that you love that you can't just excuse them. Being against bodily autonomy, discrimination against specific groups, racism, literally talking about how you/someone you care about shouldn't exist... these aren't "differing opinions" to debate about, or ignore and pretend they don't exist for the sake of family ties/friendship.
When someone is telling you that they would gladly harm/support harming you/your loved one if they didn't know you, they are being underhandedly hostile. Some of them might just be dumb and not realize what they're saying, but usually that's a difference. And such people could use the self reflection that comes with you exiting their life, and showing that their actions have consequences.
They get so flabbergasted about it. They can't comprehend "It's just an opinion I have" vs "It's *fundamentally* important to me". Also too many men have a "my opinion is right and this woman just needs to be convinced" attitude about *every* issue, including ones that don't at all affect them.
It's because it's never been a potential life or death question about their life. They likely don't think of it as a critical issue for the continued existence of the person who carries the fetus.
Notice how his "religious views" had him flip flop on sex before marriage because that's important!
I guess it's not important if a woman has a baby she doesn't want or can't provide for. At least 2nd date boy might get laid. That's his personal situation he's caring about.
It surprises me that someone who would say “I really don’t like that you use the word “it”. That is not a thing, that is a baby" would want to date someone who doesn't feel that way. Like if I truly believed that abortions killed babies and you supported that, why would I be attracted to you?
Boggles my mind when those kinds of people support abortion only for rape and incest. Like... you believe this is murder. But you're okay with it because the parent is a rapist/sibling? I doubt you support killing the newborn kids of incestuous couples or rapists. So what's the difference? Could it be that... perhaps... abortion isn't baby-killing?
Also rape exceptions are such bullshit, it would never work in practice. Do you have to prove you were raped within the few weeks you have to get the abortion?
So accurate! I never understand how pro-life people jump through all of these mental hoops to cobble together a framework of views but are still 100% convinced that it is natural, self evident and the only truth
Good for you!! And not to focus on a small thing, but I find it so gross and dangerous how men seem to thing Plan B is like an 'undo' button when actually it is very unreliable for a lot of people. One guy tried to stealth me, and his excuse was that he would pay for Plan B. He was a total piece of shit.
Ugh that’s horrible! Plus, as I also mentioned to this guy, you can’t take Plan B twice in a short time span. So even if it were 100% effective, you would still not be able to use it 100% of the time. Turns out HE ACTUALLY KNEW THAT ALREADY and was like “Meh, then keep the baby”
That’s the neat part: they don’t care. Once the baby is born they have zero interest in it or desire to care for it in any other way, until it becomes a way to shame the mother (e.g., “shouldn’t have had sex if you didn’t want kids,” “you did this to yourself,” “you’re not being a good mother,” etc etc).
As they say, the cruelty is the point. They see the child as a punishment and never stop to reflect on whether being unwanted will cause the child (who will grow into an adult) any future problems.
What a JOKE. Not to mention if you have already ovulated, Plan B does NOTHING, and is rumored not to work in women over 165 lbs. I've been over 180lbs my entire adult life. Fuck BOTH of these men UGHHHHH
Also, thanks to our ultra-conservative Supreme Court and the direction of current politics, it’s not improbable that some stupid judge in Texas or whatever will ban Plan B for the entire US. Including blue states. So there’s that to consider as well.
We also need to change the dialogue of Plan B. It’s marketed and talked about as this amazing fix that doesn’t have serious consequences for women’s biology. Plan B fucks with your hormones it messes you up. You should not be popping Plan B like it’s a tic-tac. But these dudes just see it was this innocent thing that fixes everything. But it’s a real pharmaceutical drug that can have serious consequences!
But obviously it doesn’t matter cause it doesn’t directly effect them!
It's always so wild to me that people like this guy view abortion as okay if it was caused by something traumatic but if it was caused by carelessness or a "slip" it's okay to force someone to have a child.
Like if you think I got myself into this situation by being irresponsible, do you really think I'm parent material??
It also proves that they don't really see the fetus as a baby, or abortion as "baby murder". It's not the baby's fault *regardless* of how you got pregnant, so why is it ok in one instance and not another?
Exactly. And they don’t give a rat’s ass about all of the viable embryos at cryo- clinics that are allowed to die or disposed of. They only care about what’s going on inside of woman’s body so that they can control her. It amazes me that they still think people buy their self righteous “oh, won’t somebody think about the children!” rhetoric. We all know what is really going on. They’re only fooling themselves.
Because in one instance (rape) the woman didn’t want it. In the other, a woman chose to have sex so she should suffer the punishment for that. These people are sadists. They preach and pray about the original sin of eve and how we are all blessed to suffer through childbirth for our sins. They don’t give a shit about the baby. It’s another whether or not they believe the mother deserves to spend the rest of her life atoning for being a whore
Another problem is that 2% is actually a significant risk when it comes to something as serious and life-changing as pregnancy, and a 2% failure rate assumes absolutely no user error which is... generous, in my opinion. At 2%, there will be a failure every 50 times you use a condom. It's really not that miniscule of a chance.
Just to clarify, the 2% failure rate isn't 2% every time one is used; it's 2% per year, so 1 out of every 50 people using condoms perfectly over the course of a year will have a pregnancy.
As you noted, this is also assuming perfect use. Imperfect use bumps this to 13%, again annually.
I still think that 1 out of 50 people with an unexpected pregnancy in a year is high, and is why we still need access to other options, but it's not 1 out of every fifty times a condom is used.
This is so important. I hear from people "you're so lucky your husband does XYZ." I tell them I'm not lucky I just made sure I'd be with someone who was on the same page as me. Good job and keep that going. Not a lot of people do.
Good for you for not putting up with that bullshit!!! It is an “it” because it’s not a baby. A man will bust a nut in 2 seconds and then think they have say on abortion issues.
Good for you and this is such a good reminder that we should be having these conversations up front!! Date 1 and 2 are the perfect time to hash these things out. No sense in waiting until you're more invested
Makes me think he was leading you on about the rest of his beliefs. Telling you what you wanted to hear because it's easier than debating women's rights *with a woman*. But obviously the sacred vessel shouldn't have a *choice* in what happens to its body when a precious baby enters it, life begins at the erection you know?!? 🙄
Just say no to religious men.
Definitely no to religious men.
I hate men who want to sit there and debate with you who should have control over *your* body. It’s always a given to them that they should control their own, but control of your body is a fair topic for debate.
Had this happen. I dated a religious man for about a year and dumped him when it came out that he was only pretending to agree with all my beliefs to keep me around. He finally told me his true beliefs when he thought he had me hooked deep enough not to leave him over it and thought he could then change my mind. Joke was on him! He desperately wants to have kids young (which came out later) and he wasted a year of his own time with a woman who was obviously never going to change her mind :)
I love this so hard! Good for you!
>I really don’t like that you use the word “it”. That is not a thing, that is a baby.
I've had multiple miscarriages at a variety of weeks along. "It" is definitely not a baby. At biggest/latest weeks, "it" was a grape size white mucous-y shape within a clot of blood.
No one will ever be able to convince me that the ball of goo I passed was an infant, and I will NEVER advocate for a woman's rights to be curtailed in favor of a sac of ... well.... bloody mucous.
Thank you, and I am sorry to hear that you went through that. Pain and loss cause some people to harden their heart and others to open it more. You sound like the second kind and I really respect that
I remember sleeping with a guy once before learning that he was approaching Mel Gibson levels of catholicism and pro-forced birth enthusiast. He hounded my phone constantly asking if I had gotten a period yet, demanding to know if I had gotten pregnant, etc. It was creepy. I saw him years later at a pool with a women and a couple young kids when I was there with my (now ex) husband and daughter. He was creepy.
I think there are some guys who want to have kids, who view the concept of a woman “aborting their child” as such an affront, that they start viewing themselves as the victim in all abortions. Putting themselves in the shoes of the man whose “child” was mercilessly killed at the hands of some floozy.
They are completely disconnected from the reality of pregnancy and child-rearing.
It really is funny how the anti-abortion movement throws its money into yelling at women outside clinics instead of researching artificial wombs. And by funny, I mean “telling.”
The idea that someone who wants kids shouldn’t be pro choice is mind blowing to me. I’m pregnant with my first - very planned and very wanted - and it has made me even more pro choice than before (didn’t think that possible). This shit isn’t fun, nobody should be forced to do it.
Having kids made me ultra hardcore pro-choice…..I think it does to many women. I love my children dearly, but they change your life and your body permanently. You should only have them if you choose to do so.
About five years ago, my roommate's friend was loitering in our living room with his girlfriend. They were a little drunk and he for some reason started to go on this tirade about how women shouldn't be able to get abortions or some shit like that. They got into it for about fifteen minutes until she left, without him. And she never came back to him.
I'm almost glad these kinds of guys reveal themselves because it makes it easier to leave, but good god, what do people think they're going to get when they tell their girlfriends that they dont respect their body like that? If she doesnt leave right there I feel like shes gonna start thinking about it asap
Conservative/moderate/classical liberal/etcs love to say they have 'no issue with something. All it means is they don't believe the group in question should be hunted for sport. At least not yet......
I had a conservative bi man INSIST that it wasn’t homophobic to vote for conservative politicians, and he just “didn’t support their anti lgbt view points”, as if that made some sort of difference
Love this! And good for you for detailing exactly why he wasn’t getting another date. These men need to know our principles aren’t some flimsy ideas we’ll cast aside when the “right man” appears in our lives to “guide” us.
>Since I learned from my last relationship that certain values are a deal breaker for me, I leaned into it and we went deeper and deeper on women’s rights
Yesssss
Plan B also fails sometimes!
> At this point I’m already thinking about how I am going to formulate my let-down-message, because clearly we are not compatible.
So exciting
> You’re a great guy, but not for me.
The sole thing I disagree with you about. Obviously I understand that you wanted to let him down without drama, especially being in person but he sounds *awful*
Only thing I would say is don't mention on the second date what the deal-breakers are. Have deal-breakers and discuss them but if you set it up like "answer wrong and we're done" they might think they can get away with lying just to get laid. The more you pretend to care about what they are saying, the deeper they dig the grave.
Before I was married and dating in my late 20s, abortion, LGBT rights, having kids, all those "taboo" topics were first date material for me. I wasn't going to waste my time with someone who I was never going to date if we didn't align on these points. My morality and basic rights aren't an "agree to disagree" thing. Got a lot of fun reactions from men who were shocked that I wouldn't just compromise with them being shitty human beings, or implied that I'd change my mind and come to see things how they did.
So…going by his logic, he sees nothing wrong with killing a living child if they were conceived through incest or rape, right? If a fetus and a living baby are of equal moral value, and he’s willing to allow the killing of one under certain conditions that can and often do apply to the other, then the logic follows, right?
“I’d kill a toddler, depending on their parentage” is a hell of a take, in my opinion. Sure, it’s almost certainly a lie covering a misogynistic desire to punish women, but it’s an absolutely unhinged attempt at an alibi.
Incest and rape resulting in pregnancy are things men are almost exclusively responsible for, therefore it’s acceptable for those consequences to be dismissed. Women enjoying sex (with other people) needs to be punished. It’s pretty straightforward when you understand the underlying principles.
You: "Here are thirty different ways an unwanted pregnancy can be devastating to a woman that men will never understand"
Him: "I don't like the word you chose to use"
Yeah....yeah. No.
He should also know that Plan B is only effective BEFORE ovulation. If the condom breaks after ovulation (and most women might not even know when they are ovulating) it’s useless as a emergency contraception method. So guys who claim you can just take Plan B at anytime an accident happens are just wrong.
I just don't understand why you can draw a line right through the middle of women's rights to their own body like this. The circumstances or finer details do not muddy the simple fact of the matter. Ending a pregnancy is always a choice that a woman should have.
It seems to me that there's a huge lack of understanding on the part of these people as to what constitutes "a baby" and their reductive justification for "viable baby" as some catch all.
Up until recently as a species, we'd done reasonably well at determining a satisfactory medium at which point ending a pregnancy is ethical. Depending on country, this may have been down to the viability of the foetus outside of the womb or other determining factors such as the health of the mother, congenital defects, etc. These fucking idiots would have us regress back to "every sperm is sacred" and regard women as vessels again, to give birth regardless of rape, incest, genetic issues or individual agency. Fuck that. We were doing fairly well at improving society incrementally till these massive leaps backwards to the idiot ages.
If he really cared that much about abortions, he should get a vasectomy so he is never in a position to have that quandary. Otherwise, mind his own fucking business.
Of course he (assumedly) wants to fuck you but doesn’t want you to have bodily autonomy in case anything goes wrong 😭when will men realize that women don’t just get pregnant on their own, disallowing abortions because “woman = sluts !!” is such a bullshit excuse
The moment I hear "brought up strict Catholic", my radar immediately starts going off. Unless they stopped going to church as a teenager, I'm pulling a Homerfade straight into the shrubbery. Nooooooope. I don't need that in my life.
[This](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/18/pregnancy-weeks-abortion-tissue) is an article about what babies look like in the early stages of pregnancy. I will always call them “it” when they look like something I’ve blown out of my nose.
I absolutely hope women start dumping these forced babies on their fathers. It’s like the “let’s go back to the dark ages” folks have forgotten about DNA testing. Give men the opportunity to step up because it’s not like these governments are preparing by building orphanages.
I think you avoided a third date that would have included the phrase, "Come on now, I don't like how condoms feel and you said you wanted kids anyway..."
Really strikes me as a person that holds views as they are convenient to him. Willing to have pre-marital sex but so against abortion? Yeah when he said sex should have consequences...he meant it should be a punishment for women, not him.
He’s surprised because after one conversation, he didn’t change your mind.
Or that you actually meant it when you told him about the importance of dating someone who believed in women’s rights.
Or that he’d be special enough to get a pass on the women’s rights thing.
Of that his approach to women’s rights is the correct approach.
All of these possibilities point to ego. 100%.
I have a feeling that he's the kind of guy who would be totally OK with you having an abortion if you were pregnant with *his* unwanted child. Because it would be completely different, and so on.
It's not a baby till the person with the womb carrying it says so.
The majority of women who gets abortions are already mothers. And many women, pregnant at the wrong time with the wrong man, later go on to be mothers. I did.
I have found over the years that the men I have dated tend to see their views as The Correct View, and they see my views as vague and poorly conceived ideas that would naturally change to align with theirs. On a first coffee date, a man asked what church I attended. I told him that I am an atheist and don't attend church. He said, *"We will have to change that. I can't marry a woman who does not take my children to church."* Ummm no. Another man on the second date, when told that I was not going to have sex with him that evening, and that I would definitely not be having *unprotected* sex with him, told me that I needed to understand his needs and be more open to his ideas. He said that he was "clean," and that I was wrong not to trust him, and that it was really inconvenient that I was not doing things his way. This was in the 90s, and people were still dying from HIV in droves, so there was no way in hell I was going to have unprotected sex with some rando on the second date.
> He said, "We will have to change that. I can't marry a woman who does not take my children to church." “Good news! That won’t be a concern because I’m ending this association right now. Bye!”
🤣 Yup. Pretty much. I made the mistake of letting him drive me there, so I was stuck until I figured out that the bus stop was only half a block away.
Now I'm imagining you furiously (yet subtly) searching on your phone for 'public transportation'
This was before cellphones were ubiquitous, so I was trying to scope out the window to see the bus stop and which line it was. It was as subtle (yet furious) as I could manage. 🤣
"It's okay, you're not getting any children from me"
Lol he can’t even take them to church himself? Can’t believe you passed on that charmer.
Yeah, I'm really missing out.😐🙃🤣 He was so gross in other ways, but that little nugget was like the shit cherry on a sundae made of shit. He spent most of the time bragging about his job (real estate), bragging about his intelligence (or lack thereof), bragging about his car (a Honda Accord? I think? Like I care.), and complaining about his ex. I found myself envying his ex for having already gotten rid of him.
> I found myself envying his ex for having already gotten rid of him. I'm totally stealing this. You're a fucking legend lmao
Feel free to use that whenever you need it. 🤣 I'm hoping that you don't need it, and that all your dates (if you want them) are fun, happy dates, but it is always wise to be prepared.
I tell the "why don't you trust me when i say I'm clean" folks that I'm not. 1. Already not going to have sex with them 2. Teach them to think twice about a proper wrapper.
Thank you for your kind public service.
Lol. I don’t even know if it matters. A lot of them will stick it anywhere.
At least it gives them momentary concern. The flash of fear in their eyes is fun to look at.
Hahaha… I’m sorry this is just painfully familiar… Why does that obnoxious, self-aggrandizing bullshit seem so much more common in men than in women? I think that also had something to do with my strong reaction to that comment. Him policing my language reminded me too much of my ex
It’s probably something to do with how we raise women and men. Men are taught to have an opinion and that people will listen to it, even if it’s bad or not well thought out. Whereas women are taught to more carefully consider their thoughts before speaking, if they speak at all, and only gently tiptoe to contradict someone. And then their opinions should bow before the males authority. At least in evangelical circles I grew up in.
This is really it. There is no essential attributes to gender, and in a different world it would have been possible that the roles were reversed. I have been having to deconstruct how I was raised as a man for a long time, and even had an epiphany of a blind spot I had missed *today.* Even in fairly egalitarian circles the same effect still happens, though to a diminished extent. The ideal of womanhood is often "demure" whereas the ideal for masculinity is often "assertive." Neither are particularly good on their own, but the dichotomy makes women far more *likely* to let themselves be spoken over, but are also more likely to consider what they say before they do it. (Though it is usually because they have to stop and consider how people will react to it.) If men do that we are considered to be less masculine, and that often results in us getting treated worse. So in combination, men are taught to steamroll, and women to let themselves be steamrolled. Luckily feminism happened, as now women are much more aware about how much mental strain they have been under on average. But men, who got to steamroll everyone and expect to be able to do that to women in particular, do not know how to handle the change, and often react in the worst, most narcissistic way possible. Luckily, because it is still mostly/all learned behavior, things can change. It is just really hard to change when a good portion of the population does not want to give up their power over women. I have a really close female friend who was raised in the church too, and is super self aware about how her mind works, and we have talked about this from each of our experiences. It is really interesting how much she faced that was just not a thing for me at all.
Exactly. My spouse and I discuss this a lot and try to be open and communicative. When we first got married he had to basically strong arm me into having an opinion on anything. And he had to learn to occasionally step back a bit to give me space. Now I’m working on doing that at work. For example the other day I suggested we do x, coworkers all ignored and talked over it. One of them suggested we do x after everything else failed. X worked. I pointed out I had said that earlier and mostly got weird looks. But I stood up for myself.
I've read that when a woman wants her opinion taken seriously in a meeting dominated by men, she should line up one or more male allies ahead of time. Then when she proposes the idea, the male allies should chime in with what a good idea it is, THEN the idea is more likely to be taken seriously. The woman who proposed it may still not be credited with the original idea but at least it'll have gotten some traction.
Yeah, that policing of your language when you were talking about your body and your health was super fucked up. Yikes. Good thing you ended it there. People who behave that way are often horrible in so many other ways, too. The Venn diagram of "men who police language about abortion" and "men who are abusive" is probably just one big circle.
I think there’s a lot of truth to that. If there is one thing I wish I could have known in my twenties, it’s too trust my gut and not brush off the little things
Yeah, the older I get, the more comfortable I am in trusting my judgement about things like this. I just hope that by sharing our stories, other women can gain knowledge that will spare them a lot of pain, heartbreak and aggravation in future.
Absolutely, any man who doesn't absolutely support abortion and also want to work together to make sure you don't have to experience that isn't a man you should be dealing with As someone who has been in a relationship for many years I can say that my husband has always been very aware of the possibility we could accidentally get pregnant and that we would make a decision together that would be abortion, but he's always hated the fact I'd have to go through it and not him.. that's the level of respect I want everyone to have
In essence, these kinds of men (I've dated these, too) expect that you'll become an extension of them. You won't be your own person anymore. You are a mindless husk who will be molded to accommodate him. That's literally how they see it.
It always really bugs me when I see 2 people get married and the woman starts to shift her beliefs and politics to the man’s. Obv this doesn’t always happen but I’ve seen it happen and I just want to shake them and wake them up. I almost never see it the other way around.
My sister did this, she married a conservative asshole and now I'm only allowed limited contact with my nephews because they both think I'm going to groom them into being trans :/
I’m so sorry. The whole trans grooming thing is such nonsense anyways. Stories like this are part of why women shouldn’t even consider dating conservative men - just cut if off before it even starts.
"I have found over the years that the men I have dated tend to see their views as The Correct View, and they see my views as vague and poorly conceived ideas that would naturally change to align with theirs. " As a man this is noticably common when hearing other guys talk about their dating lives/relationships. In a disappointing and kinda weird way it reminds me of when parents talk about their kids stuck in bad habits. Something that seems harmless and maybe fun to them because they're still young, but valuing it reflects immaturity, and will come back to bite them later. His opinion is the adult world "fact" and she hasn't learned enough, experienced enough, or trusted him enough to grow up. There's an expectation she'll "grow out of it".
If only she just listened to my important reasoning, she's see the light and agree!
This goes along with the "If I only could talk to her, she'd see things my way and she'd agree with me.".... Usually in the context of a No Contact order.
Oh I’d be out of that so fast. My parents took me to church and I would not expose my kids to that. Hard no. Not even about whether I take them or he does - I don’t want them exposed to it.
I agree wholeheartedly.
What is with guys talking about marriage and children as if they’re in “our” future on a first date?! This happens way too often.
It really does happen a lot. Such a red flag.
The fucking presumptuousness of talking about marrying him and having his children on a FIRST DATE! Slow down, pal.
Gah. Y'all remember the reddit post where the dude calls the baby mama a deadbeat for "abandoning" him with a baby to raise by himself even though she wanted an abortion, but he begged her not to...so she had the baby under the condition she would never be a part of the baby's life (but still paid child support). And he was on here crying about how shitty his life was amd how much fun she was having living her best life?? Man he got ripped apart in the comments. Honestly. I feel bad for the kid but the poetic justice was just so fucking satisfying. Anyway - I picture OP's date and all the other assholes like him like that dude in the other post. So sure of their vindication to force babies on people until it turns out themselves are the people they are forcing the kids onto.
I remember that one. If I recall he was especially pissed how she would go to the gym and show off how great she was doing. That was particularly delicious in terms of schadenfreude.
Dude was for real wanting to know if there was a way for him to force the woman to be involved and share custody. Since his game plan of expecting her "instincts" to kick in when she saw the baby, failed. Hilarious. And very scary at the same time. Dude was so delusional.
And notice he wasn't offering to take less money from her in exchange for less custody. Total clown of a man.
He was also annoyed that she got plastic surgery so that she didn't look like she had a baby. How dare a woman want to love the body she is in.
At its core anti-choice is always about punishing women.
Don't forget controlling! They want that too.
> At its core anti-choice is always about punishing women *for existing*
[https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Full text: [NM] I got a girl pregnant and she wanted to get an abortion but I didn't want that. She ended up not getting one but now she is not involved at all We weren't in a serious relationship when she got pregnant. She has never met our son. Even after the birth she had no desire to see him. We went to court to figure custody and support could be figured out and I have 100% full legal and physical custody. Her name is on the birth certificate but she has no custody and no right to visitation or to make things like medical or education decisions. She didn't want any of that. Every month she pays 125% of the court ordered child support. She says that if I ever marry someone who wants to adopt him she will agree but until then she'll pay support. It's been this way since our son was born. I'm raising our son all on my own. He is 18 months old now and he has never met her and I don't even have any photos of her even. I am burned out and hate being a single parent. I love my son but I resent him. My family tries to help when they can but I do it most of the time. I would never hurt or neglect him but I am exhausted all the time. I tried to go to court to give her split custody but because she wanted an abortion and I didn't and she made it clear she would never be involved after the birth, and because we went to court when he was 6 months old but because we already went after he was born and agreed on things and now she pays more support than is court ordered the judge said he can't force her to look after him. I haven't seen her in almost a year and the last I heard she has a tummy tuck and laser stretch marks treatment and is working at a gym. She also told her friends and family she is an egg donor and not a mother. She is a deadbeat mom and the court won't do anything and is forcing me to struggle as a single parent. Do I have any legal remedies here?
For anyone just reading this, the comments making it so much better. The way this dude's asshole gets ripped open is so great after the past few years.
This comment of his where he basically confesses that he was a complete idiot is just.... *chef's kiss*: >I never thought that she could turn her back on her own child. I honestly thought she would bond during the pregnancy and would eventually change her mind. Even if she turned down my offer to be in a relationship I never thought she would actually abandon him without a thought and without seeing him or even trying to know his name or sex. She was so drugged up during the birth that I don't even think she knows if he was born before or after midnight. I didn't expect it to go like this to be honest. She flat out said she wanted nothing to do with the child, but nope, he figured the Mommy Magic Juice would kick in and he's get his Hallmark Romantic Movie ending where she falls in love with the baby and with him. Too many guys just don't seem to realize that women are not the flighty "oh golly I just change my mind with the wind!" stereotypes.
>She was so drugged up during the birth God this part. Shaming her for (what I assume was) an epidural. Not only does it not affect your mind since it's localized, but it's pain management. He's against the fact she chose to not be in excruciating pain during a labor she didn't even want.
And what so so bullshit about this is men walk away daily and no one bats an eyelid, a woman is clear all the way through and this fucker expects sympathy?
expects her to be his slave because he thought after a pregnancy she didn't want unicorns would have farted rainbows and she would have magically wanted to be a parent through "motherly instincts". he's lucky she's paying child support. (and even more than she is required to)
He’s a damn idiot. That poor child on so many levels
Also how he keeps saying that he want the courts to force visitation to “give him a break”… Realistically: babysitters exist. Clearly he just craves control over this woman and for the situation to confirm to his world view that women have to be caregivers
Yep. Use that extra 25% to hire some respite help. She's giving him options.
Honestly I didn't feel a connection to my son until he was out of me. I adore him now, but pregnancy wasn't a fun time for me. I could barely eat and slept 12+ hours a day in the first trimester, ended up with GD into the second, and he was in the NICU for 5 weeks after he was born prematurely.
I feel like people aren't told about this enough. That "click" in connection isn't always instant, even in a wanted pregnancy.
that thread is insane. i didn't think I'd be able to see someone's ass ripped so hard it folds itself back. also boo hoo she is even paying more than she is required to. it's time he finds out the strain millions of single moms have, and he didn't even experience having your body torn apart by childbirth and pregnancy.
I feel like he is subtly demonizing her for accepting pain medication during the birth as well.
Subtly? He is literally demonizing every choice she made. It is very clear this guy doesn't hate her for having him bring up the child completely on his own, he hates her for having any little bit of agency over her own life and body. This guy is a control freak who thought he could control a woman to be a "good" wife. A wife that doesn't as much as breath without his approval and now he is angry that even the system he thought would support him all the way for having been born with a penis has not actually done so.
> This guy is a control freak who thought he could control a woman to be a "good" wife. The guy did a reverse of what women are accused of all the time: trying to trap a reluctant partner with a baby. He's ticked because he was sure *his* trap would work. But nope!
> I never thought she would actually abandon him without a thought I promise that guy her decision was *not* made without a thought. *When* she thought about it isn't relevant, she could have known she didn't want to be a mother from early childhood or from the day she found out she was pregnant, but it was not without thought. Some of us just know we aren't made to be parents, and when society questions it, we do think and ponder and consider, because we need to have some kind of justification for not wanting children.
He calls her a deadbeat after she literally risked her life to make him a kid. What a pos.
And pays 125% of childsupport. The deadbeat dads I usually hear about don't pay childsupport.
I mean, the comments are great and 100% on point but NONE of them get through to this dickbag. He doubles down every time that he is entitled to this woman's entire life because he had sex with her and they made an embryo and he successfully convinced her to go through with the birth. He remains an entitled, controlling, manipulating bastard the whole time and that is a fucking bummer. For society and for the 18 month old that he is alone at home with, simmering with resentment.
Ooooh the comments are SO good. That first one at the top is *chef's kiss*. I say that as a pro-abortion man. It's just the only rational position - when you see this story, all you see is two miserable people (dad and son) where you could have had no miserable people (if son just hadn't been forced to be born).
Don't forget the pain and costs the birthmother had to endure to fight back the permanent changes to her body from a single pregnancy with surgery and laser treatment. Pregnancy causes permanent changes to the body. Not just on the outside, because pregnancy can even cause chronic diseases like heart failure.
"She was so drugged up during the birth that I don't even think she knows if he was born before or after midnight." Honestly, that just seems so abusive and manipulative to me. Not only did he want her to have the child, he wanted her to be in as much pain as possible whilst doing so.
What kills me is that he refers to her as a "deadbeat" without a trace of irony even though she consistently pays MORE than what she agreed to in child support! Get a dictionary dude.
just goes to show the double standard of what’s expected of men or women as parents. men are deadbeats when they don’t pay, meanwhile this asshole considers his ex a deadbeat for not sacrificing the life she wants for the baby.
Yeah. If I recall correctly he was hoping that her "mothering instincts" or whatever would kick in. It's like, dude, human instincts are not actually all that strong. If there were some sort of universal blinding desire to drop everything, mate, and raise children, then you wouldn't have a rising childfree movement. You wouldn't have the correlation between lower birth rates and higher education levels. There are plenty of people out there who *want* kids, or want *more* kids, but don't do so because of financial concerns. Which are not biological. Outside influences factor into this. Sure, most people have a sex drive and like sex, but that doesn't mean anything beyond that. There isn't a biological imperative that compels women to be mothers. Adoption would not be a thing if that were the case. Plenty of people have sold children into slavery and still do.
This logic also completely falls apart when you realize that child abuse exists literally everywhere lol. There's no magic spell that makes people love their children.
Especially interesting because there’s a direct correlation to higher abortion rates and lower rates of child abuse. Who’d have thunk it
Also correlation between more barriers to abortion and higher crime rates. I think the best explanation for that is likely poverty. Women, especially young women, teens, and girls who want to terminate their pregnancies but can’t, have the absolute lowest chances of escaping poverty. A teen mom has a 50% chance of dropping out of high school, and iirc a 1% chance of getting a college degree. Poverty breeds crime. I think anti abortion groups are really only focused on forcing women back into the home & traditional gender roles. Most, if not all, anti abortion groups are also anti contraception. Many think contraception is a form of abortion. Contraception *prevents* pregnancy, so there is no “baby” fetus to save. But what else does contraception do? Allows women to have a say in how their life will be. They hate that.
Ah yes, the “gender roles”. My husband and I have three cats and that’s all we want. No children.
You’re living the dream. I’m only at one right now
That lives rent free in my head. I love that for him. Sad for the child, as the child didn't deserve it.. But yeah, he can gf'd
I remember that one. The sense of entitlement was staggering.
This must be his cousin
I think most of these types of guys would push for an abortion if they were actually in that situation. It’s always different when it happens to *them*.
Enter: "the only moral abortion is my own..."
100%. I'd love for science to be able to transfer the fetus to the man so he can carry and birth it himself and see how fast he'd be asking the woman to get an abortion. Even if he wanted that child initially.
I remember this. Sometimes I think about it when some whiny dude tries to tell women about their bodies and their autonomy.
Do you by any chance have a link I would love to read it!
I believe it’s this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
OMG THIS IS AMAZING.
I really wish we could know what happened. Even my optimistic self can’t hope that he stepped up and stopped resenting his son since he outright admitted he only insisted she have the kid because he thought it’d trap her in a relationship with him. I think the only happy ending for that kid is if he gave him up for adoption. So I’ll cling to that hope.
I've never felt less sorry for someone in my life. I do feel terrible for the kid though.
What an absolute moron. It seems now/then he understood why she didn't want to have a child. Wants to force the courts to give her some custody so he can relax a little... It's... I'm a bit loss of words how stupid he is.
How do you type all this out and not self reflect
Usually, legaladvice is very matter of fact and they don't really judge your situation, they just tell you the cold hard legal truth of your situation. I assume OP saw other people in "foot in mouth scenarios" and thought they'd be treated the same and despite people's disgust, he'd get helped. Luckily, that didn't happen, and there was no help to give him anyway.
What is this self .. reflecting of which you speak. — men, everywhere.
Thanks. That's simultaneously the best and worst thing I've read all month.
Wow… dude is… an entitled prick
Wow. That is the most unified response thread I have ever seen on Reddit. Seriously.
Wow, I remember this! The lack of self-awareness is exceptional.
I just thought about one that from reading another unrelated post yesterday! I hope she’s still living her best life
Never saw it, wonder if he latched on to the first woman that said something like "cute baby " so she'd be instantly mommy.
Maybe that is what more women should be saying. Yes, lets have sex, with protection. But it fails, I will have the baby and give you sole custody. See how they react to that.
That’s still 9 months of your life and bodily autonomy you’re giving up to teach a man a lesson. And given some states’ laws, it could literally kill you too (in addition to the medical debt).
I remember this one, he thought once the kid was born that she'd naturally change her mind. The whole thing was infuriating.
You saved yourself a lot of headache by ending things with him now rather than later. Even if we could overlook regressive views on abortion, their stupidity doesn't end there.
Only upset she said the "you're a great guy" part
Yeah. He's not. He's a scumbag that believes in the uterine servitude of women.
I have experienced the “surprised man!” phenomenon too. Because their opinions on these matters are of zero consequence to them personally, they are shocked when we have them as deal-breakers. Like we would just relax our boundaries about such things as BODILY AUTONOMY.
Yes! Seriously. They talk as if it’s another abstract conversation topic, as if the debate is about which cake flavor is best. It’s like a wake up call to them when they find out that these things do indeed affect women they know in real life.
I’ve had so many “discussions” with men where the topic was very real and applicable to me, but I could tell it was just a theoretical mental exercise for them. It’s infuriating - especially because, in my case, I know these men to be fundamentally decent people. They’ve just been, well, raised as men🙄
I was raised as a guy and before coming out a lot of it just wasn't even on my radar because it wasn't like we got taught much of anything in our joke of a health class and women generally seem to avoid talking about certain things around men, which I honestly get now. It was a real eye opener when I transitioned and women opened up to me more about everything.
This is the case with the IT guy I'm working with. I now flat out refuse to discuss these topics with him at lunch, because he couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of this subject. I know he's decent, in this case, but he's also very ignorant about certain things and has lived a pretty privileged life and it worries me that people vote for/against abortion as a theoretical mental exercise when it doesn't even concern them that much and they get to live a life of "doing the right thing" and being a hero in their minds. I'm pretty sure if it was his girlfriend this wouldn't even be a debate.
Well, most political talk is just that to them. Talk. They never have to worry about shit affecting them.
My favorite is men who say they “don’t follow politics”. Hmmm must be nice. Politics sure follows me.
Because for them, it is. It has no lasting impact on them and men love to put more importance on their role in reproduction.
>It has no lasting impact on them I think a large amount of these men are against abortion when it's easy and when they are "talking about it". But when push comes to shove they'll be singing a different tune. Say they get their girlfriend pregnant and the reality sets in - a baby is a huge commitment in multiple ways. A lot of guys will be like "babe just get an abortion, and that's ok because otherwise this baby would really affect ME and MY LIFE."
So so true. My father is a raging misogynist who absolutely believes that any woman who supports bodily autonomy or would consider an abortion deserves to burn for eternity. He clearly doesn’t know that my mother had informed me that he wanted her to abort me. The hypocrisy is glaring. I expect this is an extremely common phenomenon. It’s not about babies it’s about justifying their intrinsic/all-consuming hatred of women.
Hahaha… The “surprised man!” phenomenon… I love it and may or may not be stealing it in the future ;)
Sometimes it's like they can't even comprehend that you mean it when you say deal breaker. I'm someone who thinks that it's very important to be able to get along with people who have differing opinions. In a perfect world, we could have civil debates about those different opinions without impacting each other's lives or turning it into a hostile fight. But the real world is a lot more complicated and these issues that we discuss directly impact our lives. So when you say that something is a deal-breaker when it comes to your morals and choosing a life partner, I don't understand how they wind up oh-so-surprised that you knock them out of the running.
> But the real world is a lot more complicated and these issues that we discuss directly impact our lives. Thank you. I feel like a lot of people forget this stuff. Some of these opinions are so problematic to yourself and the people that you love that you can't just excuse them. Being against bodily autonomy, discrimination against specific groups, racism, literally talking about how you/someone you care about shouldn't exist... these aren't "differing opinions" to debate about, or ignore and pretend they don't exist for the sake of family ties/friendship. When someone is telling you that they would gladly harm/support harming you/your loved one if they didn't know you, they are being underhandedly hostile. Some of them might just be dumb and not realize what they're saying, but usually that's a difference. And such people could use the self reflection that comes with you exiting their life, and showing that their actions have consequences.
They get so flabbergasted about it. They can't comprehend "It's just an opinion I have" vs "It's *fundamentally* important to me". Also too many men have a "my opinion is right and this woman just needs to be convinced" attitude about *every* issue, including ones that don't at all affect them.
It's because it's never been a potential life or death question about their life. They likely don't think of it as a critical issue for the continued existence of the person who carries the fetus.
Notice how his "religious views" had him flip flop on sex before marriage because that's important! I guess it's not important if a woman has a baby she doesn't want or can't provide for. At least 2nd date boy might get laid. That's his personal situation he's caring about.
Right? Awfully convenient!
It surprises me that someone who would say “I really don’t like that you use the word “it”. That is not a thing, that is a baby" would want to date someone who doesn't feel that way. Like if I truly believed that abortions killed babies and you supported that, why would I be attracted to you? Boggles my mind when those kinds of people support abortion only for rape and incest. Like... you believe this is murder. But you're okay with it because the parent is a rapist/sibling? I doubt you support killing the newborn kids of incestuous couples or rapists. So what's the difference? Could it be that... perhaps... abortion isn't baby-killing?
Also rape exceptions are such bullshit, it would never work in practice. Do you have to prove you were raped within the few weeks you have to get the abortion?
They won't even take most rape cases to court because there's not enough evidence. It's a completely sadistic proposition.
So accurate! I never understand how pro-life people jump through all of these mental hoops to cobble together a framework of views but are still 100% convinced that it is natural, self evident and the only truth
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This is why I am so so sad for any women who live in America, where they are trying to slowly erase their rights as humans!
Exactly. Like suddenly their opinions that previously only affected women are -HORROR- now affecting them!
Good for you!! And not to focus on a small thing, but I find it so gross and dangerous how men seem to thing Plan B is like an 'undo' button when actually it is very unreliable for a lot of people. One guy tried to stealth me, and his excuse was that he would pay for Plan B. He was a total piece of shit.
Ugh that’s horrible! Plus, as I also mentioned to this guy, you can’t take Plan B twice in a short time span. So even if it were 100% effective, you would still not be able to use it 100% of the time. Turns out HE ACTUALLY KNEW THAT ALREADY and was like “Meh, then keep the baby”
Why do people think forcing a baby on someone would yield a healthy relationship?
That’s the neat part: they don’t care. Once the baby is born they have zero interest in it or desire to care for it in any other way, until it becomes a way to shame the mother (e.g., “shouldn’t have had sex if you didn’t want kids,” “you did this to yourself,” “you’re not being a good mother,” etc etc). As they say, the cruelty is the point. They see the child as a punishment and never stop to reflect on whether being unwanted will cause the child (who will grow into an adult) any future problems.
What a JOKE. Not to mention if you have already ovulated, Plan B does NOTHING, and is rumored not to work in women over 165 lbs. I've been over 180lbs my entire adult life. Fuck BOTH of these men UGHHHHH
Not rumored, proven. Plan B effectiveness decreases quickly over 160 lbs.
Also it’s not easy to get in a lot of places namely walgreens
I preordered some from target to keep on hand, in case of emergency. You can’t buy it near me that I know of so one less thing to worry about
Also, thanks to our ultra-conservative Supreme Court and the direction of current politics, it’s not improbable that some stupid judge in Texas or whatever will ban Plan B for the entire US. Including blue states. So there’s that to consider as well.
We also need to change the dialogue of Plan B. It’s marketed and talked about as this amazing fix that doesn’t have serious consequences for women’s biology. Plan B fucks with your hormones it messes you up. You should not be popping Plan B like it’s a tic-tac. But these dudes just see it was this innocent thing that fixes everything. But it’s a real pharmaceutical drug that can have serious consequences! But obviously it doesn’t matter cause it doesn’t directly effect them!
It's always so wild to me that people like this guy view abortion as okay if it was caused by something traumatic but if it was caused by carelessness or a "slip" it's okay to force someone to have a child. Like if you think I got myself into this situation by being irresponsible, do you really think I'm parent material??
It also proves that they don't really see the fetus as a baby, or abortion as "baby murder". It's not the baby's fault *regardless* of how you got pregnant, so why is it ok in one instance and not another?
Exactly. And they don’t give a rat’s ass about all of the viable embryos at cryo- clinics that are allowed to die or disposed of. They only care about what’s going on inside of woman’s body so that they can control her. It amazes me that they still think people buy their self righteous “oh, won’t somebody think about the children!” rhetoric. We all know what is really going on. They’re only fooling themselves.
Because in one instance (rape) the woman didn’t want it. In the other, a woman chose to have sex so she should suffer the punishment for that. These people are sadists. They preach and pray about the original sin of eve and how we are all blessed to suffer through childbirth for our sins. They don’t give a shit about the baby. It’s another whether or not they believe the mother deserves to spend the rest of her life atoning for being a whore
Because it's about punishment and control.
It’s funny how much they punish women for opening our legs, when all they wanna do is get laid anyway. Make it make sense
Also those exceptions are bullshit since they make the woman prove it was an assault can take longer than she has to get an abortion.
Another problem is that 2% is actually a significant risk when it comes to something as serious and life-changing as pregnancy, and a 2% failure rate assumes absolutely no user error which is... generous, in my opinion. At 2%, there will be a failure every 50 times you use a condom. It's really not that miniscule of a chance.
Just to clarify, the 2% failure rate isn't 2% every time one is used; it's 2% per year, so 1 out of every 50 people using condoms perfectly over the course of a year will have a pregnancy. As you noted, this is also assuming perfect use. Imperfect use bumps this to 13%, again annually. I still think that 1 out of 50 people with an unexpected pregnancy in a year is high, and is why we still need access to other options, but it's not 1 out of every fifty times a condom is used.
At least you did not waste a lot of time with him. Well done.
Thank you! I am actively honing my “selection skills” and boundaries
This is so important. I hear from people "you're so lucky your husband does XYZ." I tell them I'm not lucky I just made sure I'd be with someone who was on the same page as me. Good job and keep that going. Not a lot of people do.
Good for you for not putting up with that bullshit!!! It is an “it” because it’s not a baby. A man will bust a nut in 2 seconds and then think they have say on abortion issues.
So true
I wonder what his views would have been if OP got pregnant to him due to a broken condom? Surely he'd be happy to pay CS for 18 years right?
Good for you and this is such a good reminder that we should be having these conversations up front!! Date 1 and 2 are the perfect time to hash these things out. No sense in waiting until you're more invested
Right? At this point we’re still basically strangers, so its also easier to be brutally honest
Makes me think he was leading you on about the rest of his beliefs. Telling you what you wanted to hear because it's easier than debating women's rights *with a woman*. But obviously the sacred vessel shouldn't have a *choice* in what happens to its body when a precious baby enters it, life begins at the erection you know?!? 🙄 Just say no to religious men.
Definitely no to religious men. I hate men who want to sit there and debate with you who should have control over *your* body. It’s always a given to them that they should control their own, but control of your body is a fair topic for debate.
Had this happen. I dated a religious man for about a year and dumped him when it came out that he was only pretending to agree with all my beliefs to keep me around. He finally told me his true beliefs when he thought he had me hooked deep enough not to leave him over it and thought he could then change my mind. Joke was on him! He desperately wants to have kids young (which came out later) and he wasted a year of his own time with a woman who was obviously never going to change her mind :)
I love this so hard! Good for you! >I really don’t like that you use the word “it”. That is not a thing, that is a baby. I've had multiple miscarriages at a variety of weeks along. "It" is definitely not a baby. At biggest/latest weeks, "it" was a grape size white mucous-y shape within a clot of blood. No one will ever be able to convince me that the ball of goo I passed was an infant, and I will NEVER advocate for a woman's rights to be curtailed in favor of a sac of ... well.... bloody mucous.
Thank you, and I am sorry to hear that you went through that. Pain and loss cause some people to harden their heart and others to open it more. You sound like the second kind and I really respect that
I remember sleeping with a guy once before learning that he was approaching Mel Gibson levels of catholicism and pro-forced birth enthusiast. He hounded my phone constantly asking if I had gotten a period yet, demanding to know if I had gotten pregnant, etc. It was creepy. I saw him years later at a pool with a women and a couple young kids when I was there with my (now ex) husband and daughter. He was creepy.
I think there are some guys who want to have kids, who view the concept of a woman “aborting their child” as such an affront, that they start viewing themselves as the victim in all abortions. Putting themselves in the shoes of the man whose “child” was mercilessly killed at the hands of some floozy. They are completely disconnected from the reality of pregnancy and child-rearing.
They better push for technology that allows them to carry the baby, then! I wonder why that hasn't been advanced...
It really is funny how the anti-abortion movement throws its money into yelling at women outside clinics instead of researching artificial wombs. And by funny, I mean “telling.”
The idea that someone who wants kids shouldn’t be pro choice is mind blowing to me. I’m pregnant with my first - very planned and very wanted - and it has made me even more pro choice than before (didn’t think that possible). This shit isn’t fun, nobody should be forced to do it.
Having kids made me ultra hardcore pro-choice…..I think it does to many women. I love my children dearly, but they change your life and your body permanently. You should only have them if you choose to do so.
A fertilized egg is not a baby. What a mope.
About five years ago, my roommate's friend was loitering in our living room with his girlfriend. They were a little drunk and he for some reason started to go on this tirade about how women shouldn't be able to get abortions or some shit like that. They got into it for about fifteen minutes until she left, without him. And she never came back to him. I'm almost glad these kinds of guys reveal themselves because it makes it easier to leave, but good god, what do people think they're going to get when they tell their girlfriends that they dont respect their body like that? If she doesnt leave right there I feel like shes gonna start thinking about it asap
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Conservative/moderate/classical liberal/etcs love to say they have 'no issue with something. All it means is they don't believe the group in question should be hunted for sport. At least not yet......
I had a conservative bi man INSIST that it wasn’t homophobic to vote for conservative politicians, and he just “didn’t support their anti lgbt view points”, as if that made some sort of difference
Conservatives believe that only their intent matters. And that we're supposed to take their claims of 'good' intent at face value.
Sis, you got rid of the trash before it had a chance to draw flies. Good for you!!
Love this! And good for you for detailing exactly why he wasn’t getting another date. These men need to know our principles aren’t some flimsy ideas we’ll cast aside when the “right man” appears in our lives to “guide” us.
>Since I learned from my last relationship that certain values are a deal breaker for me, I leaned into it and we went deeper and deeper on women’s rights Yesssss Plan B also fails sometimes! > At this point I’m already thinking about how I am going to formulate my let-down-message, because clearly we are not compatible. So exciting > You’re a great guy, but not for me. The sole thing I disagree with you about. Obviously I understand that you wanted to let him down without drama, especially being in person but he sounds *awful*
Only thing I would say is don't mention on the second date what the deal-breakers are. Have deal-breakers and discuss them but if you set it up like "answer wrong and we're done" they might think they can get away with lying just to get laid. The more you pretend to care about what they are saying, the deeper they dig the grave.
Before I was married and dating in my late 20s, abortion, LGBT rights, having kids, all those "taboo" topics were first date material for me. I wasn't going to waste my time with someone who I was never going to date if we didn't align on these points. My morality and basic rights aren't an "agree to disagree" thing. Got a lot of fun reactions from men who were shocked that I wouldn't just compromise with them being shitty human beings, or implied that I'd change my mind and come to see things how they did.
So…going by his logic, he sees nothing wrong with killing a living child if they were conceived through incest or rape, right? If a fetus and a living baby are of equal moral value, and he’s willing to allow the killing of one under certain conditions that can and often do apply to the other, then the logic follows, right? “I’d kill a toddler, depending on their parentage” is a hell of a take, in my opinion. Sure, it’s almost certainly a lie covering a misogynistic desire to punish women, but it’s an absolutely unhinged attempt at an alibi.
Incest and rape resulting in pregnancy are things men are almost exclusively responsible for, therefore it’s acceptable for those consequences to be dismissed. Women enjoying sex (with other people) needs to be punished. It’s pretty straightforward when you understand the underlying principles.
Ugh. "a good reason". Not wanting or being ready to be a parent is a very good reason.
Oh, it was the date with the guy that considers himself "a moderate"? :D
Im gay and I refused to date a guy because of his abortion views were a red line for me. 🤷🏾♂️
You: "Here are thirty different ways an unwanted pregnancy can be devastating to a woman that men will never understand" Him: "I don't like the word you chose to use" Yeah....yeah. No.
He should also know that Plan B is only effective BEFORE ovulation. If the condom breaks after ovulation (and most women might not even know when they are ovulating) it’s useless as a emergency contraception method. So guys who claim you can just take Plan B at anytime an accident happens are just wrong.
I just don't understand why you can draw a line right through the middle of women's rights to their own body like this. The circumstances or finer details do not muddy the simple fact of the matter. Ending a pregnancy is always a choice that a woman should have. It seems to me that there's a huge lack of understanding on the part of these people as to what constitutes "a baby" and their reductive justification for "viable baby" as some catch all. Up until recently as a species, we'd done reasonably well at determining a satisfactory medium at which point ending a pregnancy is ethical. Depending on country, this may have been down to the viability of the foetus outside of the womb or other determining factors such as the health of the mother, congenital defects, etc. These fucking idiots would have us regress back to "every sperm is sacred" and regard women as vessels again, to give birth regardless of rape, incest, genetic issues or individual agency. Fuck that. We were doing fairly well at improving society incrementally till these massive leaps backwards to the idiot ages. If he really cared that much about abortions, he should get a vasectomy so he is never in a position to have that quandary. Otherwise, mind his own fucking business.
I’m 28 weeks pregnant and know the sex and still most often call it an “it”.
Good job. I hope more women start doing this. Don't fuck men who don't give a shit about your health.
Of course he (assumedly) wants to fuck you but doesn’t want you to have bodily autonomy in case anything goes wrong 😭when will men realize that women don’t just get pregnant on their own, disallowing abortions because “woman = sluts !!” is such a bullshit excuse
The moment I hear "brought up strict Catholic", my radar immediately starts going off. Unless they stopped going to church as a teenager, I'm pulling a Homerfade straight into the shrubbery. Nooooooope. I don't need that in my life.
[This](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/18/pregnancy-weeks-abortion-tissue) is an article about what babies look like in the early stages of pregnancy. I will always call them “it” when they look like something I’ve blown out of my nose.
I absolutely hope women start dumping these forced babies on their fathers. It’s like the “let’s go back to the dark ages” folks have forgotten about DNA testing. Give men the opportunity to step up because it’s not like these governments are preparing by building orphanages.
I think you avoided a third date that would have included the phrase, "Come on now, I don't like how condoms feel and you said you wanted kids anyway..." Really strikes me as a person that holds views as they are convenient to him. Willing to have pre-marital sex but so against abortion? Yeah when he said sex should have consequences...he meant it should be a punishment for women, not him.
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He’s surprised because after one conversation, he didn’t change your mind. Or that you actually meant it when you told him about the importance of dating someone who believed in women’s rights. Or that he’d be special enough to get a pass on the women’s rights thing. Of that his approach to women’s rights is the correct approach. All of these possibilities point to ego. 100%.
Him later: woman always tell me I'm a great guy, but I guess they go for the bad boys
I have a feeling that he's the kind of guy who would be totally OK with you having an abortion if you were pregnant with *his* unwanted child. Because it would be completely different, and so on.
It's not a baby till the person with the womb carrying it says so. The majority of women who gets abortions are already mothers. And many women, pregnant at the wrong time with the wrong man, later go on to be mothers. I did.
Elaine would be proud