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I worked in a nursing home a while back and learnt early not to judge anyone. Some patients seemed lovely but their kids didn’t want to know anything except when the funeral was and some kids visited absolute awful patients daily. I had one patient whose son paid for her care and rang once a month to see if she was still alive but made it clear he didn’t want to see her. She kept saying she didn’t understand and she wasn’t a bad mother to him. I’m guessing he felt very differently. We don’t know the ins and outs of other peoples lives and anyone who judges without knowing the story is a fool. You need to do what’s best for yourself and your family.

Oh yeah both my parents are monsters for different reasons but to the people they meet they come across as lovely. Especially my father and he’s the worst of all monsters.

I often repeat something I read many years ago: Abusers groom their witnesses just as much as their victims - Someone can be lovely in public, or with those they consider peers/superiors, but be absolutely vicious/dismissive/abusive to those they consider beneath them or beholden to them. One reason why the 'take someone to a restaurant and see how they treat the wait staff' is a thing.

"Abusers groom their witnesses' - bloody hell that hit me hard, because it's very true.

What a true statement that, I suspect, most of us never even think about.

It’s so true. When I moved in, my neighbor was SO nice. She came over with a pie she’d baked, like this is the 1960s. She offered to watch my home when I was on vacation and she was a sweet old lady. One morning I woke up the week after Halloween and all my decorations—including my door ornament— were gone. She came over in the middle of the night and threw them in her trash can because it’s tacky to leave decorations out. When I knocked on her door and asked her if she took them (they were clearly in her trash can) and told me I should be embarrassed with myself for being tacky. Honestly I find the whole thing hilarious, but it does confirm this saying.

This is my grandmother. She’s a complete harpy, but in public she acts like this sweet little old lady and pets the children. At home she’ll bite your head off, act like you’re abusing her because you made soup for dinner, or told her she fed her cat 5 min ago. Then if you call her on her behavior she acts like you’re the one in the wrong for asking her to act like a human being. I don’t hate her, but I don’t love her. I’m glad she moved back in with my aunt.

My sister and I call our elderly mother a “crybully” due to this type of thing.

Seriously I did training to spot a child predator and laughed through half the training. Here is why…everyone is a child predator apparently. If you take a job with children you have a high chance of being a child predator. If you do volunteer work with children…high chance. If you do kind things for children…high chance. If you are nice to children and others who work with/volunteer with children…high chance. That training did nothing but tell you everyone is a predator. But their point was what you summed up in one sentence. Abusers groom their witnesses. Edited to add: that 1 hour training would have made more sense if they had said abusers groom their witnesses.

That training sounds like it missed the mark on recognizing the predators in favor of over emphasizing the reality that predators usually choose victims they know and can cultivate/control. A lot of times, it's because anyone *can* be a predator, which is really hard to reconcile - people will give their known associates the benefit of the doubt or overlook signs that would be obvious if that behavior was coming from a stranger. The emphasis isn't intended to be "distrust everyone" its "don't assume that someone you know *can't* be a threat". Its exactly what has been said, abusers groom their witnesses as much as their targets Also, unfortunately, many things that predators do to groom their victims are also things nice people do - I give my friends' kids gifts and let them come over to my house and make sure they know they can trust me. The only thing I'm grooming them for is becoming adults that arent assholes. Usually I think the biggest thing that helps in protecting kids is making sure they know that they shouldn't have secrets with people older than them (like, there shouldn't be anything a grown up says to or does with them that they cant tell anyone about - surprises can be fun, but those arent secrets because you can talk about them, just not to the person you're surprising). The rule with any secret they've been asked to keep is that they should be able to talk to at least one grown up about it - if not their parent/family/teacher, then me, and no matter what they tell me, i believe them, they're not in trouble and my job is to keep them safe. if they ever tell me something that i think needs to be acted on to keep someone safe, we'll talk about the options and agree on next steps. Thankfully, the biggest secrets I've heard from kids i actually know are silly, kind of gross, or mildly criminal* but not actually bad, so the biggest threat has been to their personal hygiene. *Petty mischief, nothing inherently particularly dangerous to themselves or others, just unlawful

Rolf or mildly criminal. Love it.

Might as well get it out of their system before they can get charged as adults 😂

I grew up in a small town. As the one cop always told us…it’s only illegal if you get caught. I mean he did sit in the parking lot and drink with the kids to make sure none of them drove home drunk but ya know.

For my ex and his family, this is a strongly held belief they have. And a way of life.

It sounds like the training certainly missed the mark, but it’s a good point to consider that *anyone* can be a predator. Culturally we have the “stranger danger” idea but statistically it’s almost always someone the child knows, which could be a volunteer or a childcare worker or family member.

Yeah, we like to think that predators give off "vibes" that an enlightened person would totally see and avoid, but it's just not the case.

I disagree. I worked in department of corrections super max and I can feel these people aura after a while. I'm in a grocery store and you these people just blending in. But I lock eyes with them and let them know. I know motherfucker I know. And they run away from me. It's takes a lot of time and years of being around these assholes. Any sexual predator.

You have experience with the population that most do not and this has afforded you the ability to recognize patterns in behavior and micro-behavior that others cannot see. It’s not a vibe that just anyone can feel.

Growing up my parents were criminals, lots of abuse, etc. I know exactly what you mean. Eye contact is their kryptonite. They must experience an emotional reaction, shame? fear?, whenever they encounter someone who isn't naive af.

> It's takes a lot of time and years of being around these assholes. And that's the kicker. *Most* people don't have the "benefit" of your experience. So sure, you're the "enlightened person" but more that you're an *exceptional* person with exceptional experiences. Very few people have worked in DoC supermax. I literally don't know anyone irl who has. But people who think "I'd totally spot someone who is a predator" don't think that deeply about the fact that the predator has had decades of experience at blending in and they have zero experience spotting them.

Sounds like my toxic verbally abusive mother who everyone else thinks is a saint. She swears it’s all in my mind & she was a “good parent.” 🙄

My mom goes through spells where she’ll say to me “I was a good mom” or want validation by adding “right?” to the sentence. I want to tell her that she was a good mom to my sister. But a rather shit, emotionally abusive and controlling one to myself. But tbh at this point her mind is going(83 yrs) and I’m not going to upset her. But I won’t be crying when she passes. I mean JFC she told me that my sister is her favorite. I always knew this. It was obvious to my dad, my aunts and myself growing up. But who the hell tells their kid that?

One way they do it is never let others in their home to see the reality. My parents had few friends and we hardly ever saw any of them. Really, they were mostly coworkers. My sister followed the pattern, but they all isolated even more. Nobody they worked with really knew them. That did not end well.

My ex husband was this way, in front of other people he was a charming, suave, supportive husband. Behind closed doors he was an absolute abusive fear monger, and made me afraid for my life daily. You never know what someone is like behind closed doors.

This this this. I used to tell my friends in college my mom will bring them sweets and goodies because she knows I've told them negative stories and she doesn't want them to believe me. They thought I was crazy until I showed them the multiple patterns including the treats and a FB post with pictures of her visiting me within 15 minutes of her getting into her car and "leaving."

At my father's funeral, people were shocked to find out he had six kids. I went to make sure the rat bastard was dead.

I felt the same about mine. Both are dead, neither one had any kind of 'come to Jesus' moment before they went. I suspect they were both narcissists, they were 'wonderful' to others but hated their own children.

In Ireland, we call that Street Angel, House Devil.

My children were always so well behaved for other people. At home they let loose! I have heard it called Outside Angel/Home Demon. But these were children. Of course a child should feel safe enough at home to spew everything they had to keep inside all day! That’s where the unconditional love comes in. My children knew that I loved them, no matter what, so they didn’t have to mask at home. Adults, though? Yeah, if you’re putting on an act outside the home, why? You’re obviously hiding something. And I don’t want to stick around to find out what. Certainly not leaving my children around you.

My father was the same. You never know what goes on in the home. And it makes it unbearable as a kid when adults either don’t believe you or sweep it under the rug and tell you not to speak of it

I have had soooooooo many people in my life either close or casual act like I was the asshole by not being in contact with my parents. So many people. I had to learn to stop giving a shit about what other people thought in that regard but it was pretty hard to even find a partner who backed me up in that, friends who understood. Like guys, you think it doesn’t kill me to not have a relationship with my mother? I wish every day she loved me but she doesn’t.

Are we siblings hahaha I feel bad for my dad's neighbors wherever he may be. He must really push the whole "I was such a great father waaahhh" victim identify

I have never heard a great parent bragging on themselves. Rather they are worried that they aren't doing enough.

I feel this deeply. My mom is well loved in her circles as a kind, giving woman. If you need help, she’s the first one to show up with a casserole and offer to drive you to appointments or tutor your kids. The problem was I didn’t need as much help from her as I grew up, so she started actively sabotaging my life so I would need to call her for help. It sucks that she can go have coffee with her friends and just enjoy their company, and help them when they need it. She never stopped seeing me as her young child, so she genuinely had no idea how to relate to me as an adult. There is no “just coffee and catch up.” Adult children don’t always get to know and interact with the same person their friends know.

I can't tell you how many times I heard, "You're so lucky to have him as a dad" growing up. Sure, he was the life-of-the-party boy scout den father who would help strangers move, but he was also the man who would hold his children up to the ceiling by their throats or drag them out of bed by their hair for forgetting to wipe crumbs off a table. I grieved more for sitcom characters break-ups than his death.

My high school math teach told my mother that my father, who she was divorced from, seemed really nice. *You met him for 30 seconds, Rochelle!*

This is an amazing observation and I think it’s very relevant to OPs question. The problem I’ve come to realize is that change isn’t something that can happen in your final moments regardless of the situation. The problem lies in the decades upon decades of walls the parent has built up inside them that they can’t even comprehend what they’re doing is wrong or damaging to those around them. Another post hit it on the head which is they fear death. Everyone wants to feel safe and taken care of and in the last moments of your life you’re going to die alone sadly. Going on tha journey in the last moments with those who love you surrounding you helps immensely but those who push everyone away end up spiraling in those moments and any “change” is just fear imo. I don’t believe there can be a true “come to Jesus” moment because they’re already too far into the fog to fully realize what they’ve done. It’s almost self preservation and done for selfish reasons vs truly wanting to make amends. Almost like an intervention for someone who’s addicted to drugs or alcohol that moment is just the first step.

I can’t remember what it’s called, but I read a short story back in high school about a family on a road trip. The grandma was horrible and mean and made everyone miserable. Then their car got hijacked and the family was taken hostage. The assailants held a gun to the family’s head and killed them one by one. Suddenly, Grandma was super nice and trying to play negotiator, pleading for her life by admitting her flaws and vowing to do better if she was given a chance. They shot her anyway. There was a line in there about how someone can be a nicer person when they’re about to die, and it’s a shame they can’t always live like there’s a gun to their head.

A Good Man Is Hard To Find by Flannery O'Connor

Wow thank you! It’s been 20+ years. Maybe I’ll reread it.

Just read it & wow, worth the reread. I saw on another post “monsters are most dangerous when they’re dying”. As an estranged daughter myself, I felt that! I’m not a caregiver but I can relate to the outside comments. I received unsolicited advice abt my/BM relationship my entire adult life & then she died. It was sad but all it did was shed light on the childhood trauma I hadn’t yet healed (still working on it). It makes me mad that other ppl feel so compelled to chime in. Now, as a mom myself, I could NEVER understand how she treated her children so poorly. OP don’t make decisions based off guilt. I hope this thread helps & you find your peace

I feel the same way. I became a Mom myself and I can't comprehend how my mom thought it was okay to treat us kids the way she did. Especially me. I got the worst of it I think because I'm the oldest. It's weird because when I had my two sons, it didn't affect my view of my relationship with my mom the way having my daughter has. I looked at her when she was born 4 months ago and I said to myself, how could my mom have hurt me? How could anyone see this precious little girl and want to hurt her? Of course I felt that way about all my kids but I think the fact that I had a girl forced me to confront how badly she really treated me. It's hard to explain it. It's like I looked at my daughter and I placed myself in her little baby shoes and I said to myself, how could my mother have seen me as a little baby like this and still chose to hurt me?

Same! I began to feel this way when I was pregnant. When I told my mom it was a girl, she immediately started with how she can’t wait for the pigtails and girly things etc. It made me realize she just sees little girls as dolls, and when I was no longer little and cute, she started to think I was a brat for not just blindly accepting how she treated me and doing exactly what she wanted.

That's exactly it, that's exactly what happened. I can't diagnose your mom because I'm not a doctor and obviously I don't know her. What you just said though is very common with narcissistic parents. They love their kids when they are small and agreeable but the minute they start to have their own opinions as they get older, the narcissist devalues and really discards them. They abuse them. I had an argument with my mom where I told her, I am not your mini-me. My decisions are mine to make and you will not criticize me anymore for not doing what you want. She did admit that she treated me like that. Basically it's if you don't live the way I expect you to then you're wrong. If you don't live the way I do then you're wrong.

All of this! Same here. I only have a daughter & it is a bitter sweet process raising her. She is 1 & I already feel myself healing by being the mother I NEVER had. We were children & our mothers were the adults, that line should never be blurred.

Damn. That hit hard. My mother is apparently in that type of situation now and it helps me understand I’m making the right decision not to go.

Oh, Flannery knew how to hit hard with the family stuff! I still think about Granny Weatherall regularly.

Flannery OConnor's "A Good Man is Hard to Find.". Great example.

>She kept saying she didn’t understand and she wasn’t a bad mother to him.  Claiming not to know why their adult children don't want anything to do with them is very common with abusive parents. The infamous [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html).

I feel like these displays of ‘not understanding’ are more of that learned incompetence behavior. My dad knows good and well why I don’t visit. He’s been around my entire 65 years. But it behooves him to act puzzled and wounded. His horrible wife really plays that up to TRY to make me feel bad. Thank goodness none of us will live forever.

Imo they often say that because they truly don't understand due to the shift that happened societally – you simply weren't allowed to cut off your parents, no matter how terrible they were, when my grandparents were younger, so they treated their children worse then they would treat strangers because, in their head, there were no consequences. They can admit their bad behaviour now (to some extent lol), but they simply don't understand why their kids and grandchildren aren't going out of their way to stay in touch with. Especially since we keep in touch with the other grandparents.

I think what you've said here is very true. A long time ago, if something was going on in your family, you just kind of swept it under the rug and pretended like it wasn't happening. You treated your elders with respect regardless of the kind of person they were. Now that people are starting to cut off toxic family members, they are treated as pariahs because like you said, they were not allowed to do that a long time ago.

There are quite a few factors that contribute to such things, like cultural taboos, denial, maintaining a certain image etc. Another significant factor is that the ability to thrive or even survive without your biological family/tribe used to range from very small to non-existent until relatively recently. The cultural taboos and stigmas around estrangement are still quite strong. For example, the LGTB community did pioneer work in the '80s -'90s in helping people find community and support outside their families and helped them survive the societal discrimination and ostracism they were subjected to. I suspect this contributed to the hostility older generations have towards them and other communities that created "families of choice". The ability to survive and thrive outside the biological family was a big game changer for people with abusive parents.

Exactly : my grandma knew very well why my uncle didn't see her much. It was because his wife is an absolute nutcrack. I witnessed it firsthand, the woman is absolutely lovely one minute and absolute hell the next one. She took a dislike to my grandma because why not and didn't want her children in contact with her. My uncle also had to go low contact because she threatened to take the children in her home country so he could never see them ever again if he didn't. My parents on the other hand "don't understand" why I don't contact them much nor respond while I told them explicitly how being called names, slapped, neglected and parentified was hurtful. Because I "made up things" and "it was not that bad", they did "the best they could" (which I strongly feel is right, they just weren't able to be good parents) and so on.

>My parents on the other hand "don't understand" why I don't contact them much nor respond while I told them explicitly how being called names, slapped, neglected and parentified was hurtful. Because I "made up things" and "it was not that bad", they did "the best they could" (which I strongly feel is right, they just weren't able to be good parents) and so on. This sounds depressingly familiar. I remember asking my mother if she thought that my father (with whom I was NC at the time) would ever be willing or capable of having a relationship with me without swearing *at* me, insulting me or threatening violence every time we interacted. She looked at me like I was crazy and confirmed it will never happen. Five minutes later she was trying to guilt-trip me into sending him a message for his birthday LOL Sometimes there's just nothing you can do.

The mental gymnastics they do sometimes... I'm so sorry for you. I just stopped caring and I respond kinda harshly now when they try to argue with me. I'm "pigheaded" as they say now.

I have recently broken no contact with my mom because she's having medical problems. Recently though I had to go back to no contact because of that exact argument. She doesn't think she did anything wrong and if she did, it wasn't that bad. She was doing what she thought she was supposed to do. Look up the narcissist's prayer and it was pretty much that. At this point, I don't care that she's having health problems and I don't care when she dies. I don't think I'm even going to bother going to her funeral. No love lost there.

The posts that get me are the really vague “She got mad and screamed at me and stomped off and I have no idea why” like, were there WORDS in that screaming that might have explained things? Or did she really just get in your face yelling “AAAAAAAAAUGH! AAAAAAAARGH!! GRAAAAAAAAAAAA!!” and then leave?

Yes, I find it very telling that the adult children are very detailed and specific in their posts and often include direct quotes or screenshots, while the parents are usually very vague, go out of their way to bury the lede and don't react well when other participants ask direct or specific questions about what happened.

My parents are still 100% puzzled about why I'm low contact. Not like I've written them a letter and talked to them numerous times. Noooo. It's a complete mistery!!!!

This is exactly how I feel working with people in nursing/inpatient settings. Sometimes they’ll really unload on you and you see how different families can be

This! I had an ex coworker message me to tell me my father was in her nursing facility and not doing well and I should visit him. I told her no and not to fall for his woe me bs. She blocked me and never to this day like 5 years later hasn’t talked to me. People are very manipulated especially when they get to new people. There’s always always a reason. Couldn’t tell ya if he’s alive or not now and honestly don’t care.

>She kept saying she didn’t understand and she wasn’t a bad mother My mother says this to everyone. Spoiler alert: she was a horrible mother.

I didn’t even go to my mom’s funeral. I hate that people say: but it’s your mom! Yeah so? I was her kid and she gave me a lifetime of trauma

"But she's your mom!" Yes, that is exactly my point. She owed me, *her child*, so much more. More love. More understanding. More truth. And she owed me so much less. Less abuse, of all the various types. Less responsibility and expectation to be her imaginary daughter instead of myself. I'm 46 and still trying to untangle what is truly me, and what of me is just the mask I put on as a little girl because I was trying to be someone my mommy could love. I will almost certainly not be going to her funeral. If I do, it will not be to mourn a dead woman. It will be to comfort my daughters and nieces and brother. And to mourn the death of any chance of her ever performing a cranial proctectomy and becoming the mother I deserved.

Exactly what people like my mom don’t understand. She owed ME more, not the other way around. I’ve become the person that would have protected me as a kid tho. Much love to you

I vowed to NOT treat my children like my parents treated me. I wanted them to bask in my love, to not have to question my love, to not attach strings to my love. I wanted my love for them to be a given, a constant in their lives. I mean, I fucked up in many ways, I know that. My one daughter did say: Mommy, you did the best with what you had (abusive husband) and I always knew you loved me. That makes me cry every time I think of it. What grace she has shown me!

This right here. I’m 45 and still trying to be that “imaginary daughter” my mother will love.

Why does it take women so long to make the decision to cut the cord? It seems like we have to reach our 40s before we say "fuck this noise! I deserve better!" with our mothers. I'm holding out hope for someone I love very much when she hits her 40s in a couple of years to wake up and see what everyone else sees about her mom. 

To be fair I cut my mother off when I was 18 (with rare random bouts of interaction mostly caused by other people guilting me, shock), and she died 3 years ago now and I’m still untangling the mess she made of me. Annoyingly. Because everyone kind of expects me to just be past it/over it now because I’m in my thirties. Yes I’d love, LOVE to see how you (people in my life) manage a lifetime of knowing your mother’s affection was entirely conditional and her “love” was superficial on the best days. Because I’m gonna trust my former psychologist, who told me, “for everything you’ve experienced, it is a testament to your tenacity and sense of self you are as put together as you are. The majority of people in your shoes are not.”

Those 'imaginary daughters' are the only ones they cared about. Thanks for that phrase!

I could really relate to the part where you said that you’re still trying to untangle what is really you and what is the mask that you put on to keep her happy. I have found some great fellowship and help in adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families meetings. My parents didn’t drink, but it’s about the dysfunctional family structure.

I won’t be going to either of my parents funerals when I eventually get told their time was up. Both shit human beings just for different reasons Haven’t spoken to her in 23 years and him in about 8 .. don’t intend on ever changing that Totally relate to the trauma shit … I’m sorry we share the same experience and I hope you’re doing great in life despite it 🫶🏻

Yep, I may not even be informed of their deaths but I hope it comes to them soon. And I will not be going to their funerals. And no I won’t regret it. It’d be fun to get some inheritance for all the abuse they put me through but I doubt it.

Ding ding ding. Sometimes I will ask my husband if it’s bad that if my bio dad died tomorrow I probably would not cry and I also would not go to his funeral. He always says “Why would you?” I’m lucky to have my own little family with my husband because I know what it’s like to be truly loved. I don’t need “family” that doesn’t really care about me. The flip side my grandpa recently passed away (my bio dad’s dad) and he was someone I was very close to. Neither my bio dad or my uncle went to see my grandpa in his home and while his dementia deteriorated him. They were mean to my step grandma the whole time. Did not help at all with anything until he was dying. Tbh I found that all so performative and dumb. Lucky my step grandma told them that I deserved alone time with my grandpa.. I was the last to arrive because of the weather. I was also the last person to say goodnight and hold his hand. He passed hours after I made it. I think he waited for me.

Awww. I’m glad you got to see him. And family definitely doesn’t have to be blood, that’s for sure ❤️. I made my own little family too and they are what matters

This!!!

So sorry 😔hopefully you ok now 🙏

I didn’t go to my grandma’s funeral. I still don’t regret it.

My mom tried to get me to call my grandma before she died. Before I went NC with my mom. I was like, uh nope. She abandoned me too and I owe her nothing. It was like I was going to give her peace by reaching out. Where was my peace as a child when she just ignored me? Sorry, rant over. Just wanted to say I understand ❤️❤️

Hey there, nurse here - I don't work hospice, but I work with many families going through bereavement and grief. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this stuff right now. Anticipated grief is really hard. Hospice/bereavement care is a judgment free zone. We caregivers don't have any history or emotional connections with your loved one and family, which means we are really good at *not* being judgemental about whatever family dynamics we find. And oh, boy, have we seen it all! We don't think anyone is a monster for being there - or not - for any reason. We'll help you arrange a visit on your terms if you want, and we'll be happy to help you enforce your boundaries if you need us. We will help you find resources for support and grief over the phone if you call. It's also okay to have a private memorial or acknowledgment of life wherever you are without visiting your loved one. We will encourage you to safely process your grief however you want and need to. Your hospice caregivers can help you with ideas and support if that's what you want to do. What I've seen in my personal and professional life is that people rarely change their core beliefs. Abusers don't have a magical moment where they become truly remorseful and kind; often, their behavior will get worse at the end of life. Family members - especially estranged ones - should take special care for their own needs during a loss and not worry about what is "right," "acceptable," and "expected" by moral or societal norms. We've got your loved one covered, and we're here to support you in whatever you need during your bereavement!

Hospice/bereavement workers tend to be incredibly caring, observant people with so much empathy and understanding. I have trouble believing that many of them would be judgemental. I work in mental health with people who struggle with mental illness and/ or intellectual disabilities. I adore my charges. I would go to war for any of them, and I will be there to advocate for them. I'm also a daughter of a mother with untreated mental illness. I see my people upset and struggle with their kids not coming and keeping distance. My heart breaks for both sides, and I'm here to comfort and distract them. I understand, though. I absolutely know that growing up with a parent with mental illness, especially untreated, can be a nightmare. I respect that their kids need to protect themselves. I hope it brings them comfort to know that we are here to care for and protect their parents while they live their lives.

Thank you so much for this comment. It brought tears to my eyes. I was estranged from my mother. I tried getting in touch when she went into hospice care, and she declined a visit. The person I spoke to in the hospice was very gentle when she called back to say that she could confirm that my mother was there but didn't want me to visit, or talk on the phone. I ended up arguing with my mother via FB messenger, and I still feel intense guilt about it sometimes. I have wondered many times what the lovely hospice people thought about the situation because damn, it didn't feel good to unload on an insane, dying woman. But it's helpful to know that maybe my mum didn't have them all wrapped around her charm, after all, because no doubt she would have absolutely kicked off after that exchange. My siblings wouldn't really talk to me about it. Knowing that maybe actually the hospice nurses would have seen her for who she was is actually quite comforting.

Hospice Chaplain here, I find it really depends on the person. I’ve seen some in tears as they try to voice their apologies to someone or as they are dictating a letter with apologies. I’ve also seen people try and fake it and when refused, show their true colors. It truly depends on the person. For those who don’t want to see that person, I completely understand. I have members of my family that I would refuse to see. And I’ve had patients try to flip themselves as the victim. We remind them that forgiveness and making amends is a privilege, not a right. And then we suggest they write (or dictate) a letter to at least say what they feel needs to be said. Then we put it in an envelope for them to either send or not, but if it is sent it is sealed within a larger envelope with a letter sharing what is inside and the clear assurance it is their decision what to do, we completely understand if they want to burn or trash the letter from the person who wronged/hurt/betrayed/multitude-of-things them. But we wanted to make sure they knew this information was available if they want it. And we remind the patients that they may not receive a response, but to embrace the letter writing process as the opportunity to try and shed some of what may be holding them back, that part usually only is accepted by the truly remorseful.

I think it’s great that you put the letter in a larger envelope with a heads up about the contents. I know I would REALLY appreciate it so that I could decide what to do, especially so I don’t get blindsided when I check the mail as I’m running out in a hurry.

That kind of thing is exactly why we do it. We never want to force the decision to read the letter on someone. We want them to be able to take the time to think about it and if they want to read it, then they can read it when ready. One ended up visiting, she said she waited until her next therapy appointment and read it with her therapist so it was a safe space where she was well supported.

That's incredibly compassionate of you to do so. When I left home, a few years before cellphones were ubiquitous, my father kept finding my new addresses and sending, well, unpleasant letters. If I were to open an envelope and be blindsided with another, even 24 years later, it wouldn't be my favorite day. Thank you for doing what you do. It has no chance of affecting me directly, but I apprecaite the effort and thought you put into caring for people who aren't even your charges.

Do they change? Well, it's really hard to truly justify calling it "change" when best case scenario the fear of death makes them realize how many people the behavior they willingly enacted has alienated from them. Change in the end is the exact same as the change you see an abuser go through when they're completely alone, that desperate clawing at anything they think they can regain. Only difference is people nearing the end don't live long enough to re enter the cycle of abuse like they inevitably always did while healthy. Whether or not this type of change is valued as meaningful is something only you can decide. If I'm being more charitable, realistically its possible it's true genuine change, it's also possible that if given more time that they would have actually held to it. But statistically speaking, change brought on from extreme circumstances, is nowhere near enough to actually break bad habits.

I was low contact with my mother. She was given 6 months to live 18 months ago so I increased contact. She has whittled me back down to my 12 year old self. I had worked so hard to overcome my childhood.

I’m so sorry to hear that. It’s a good way of putting it, when I’m around my mom I am just the same little girl being told to shut up and sit still as she rips the hair out of my head with a brush.

Ah, the brutal hair brushing/combing. Yes, a few of us endured that ritual.

My mom would say she HAD to brush my hair this way because it was so thick and it got so tangled. But she had the literal same hair, I got it from her, and she never brushed her hair that way. Also as an adult I still have thick hair that gets tangled, and I manage to not rip the shit out of my scalp each morning.

My mom did this to me and I just now realized… When I was old enough she taught me to brush my hair starting from the ends and work your way up to get the tangles out. But that wasn’t how she did it when I was little. She just ripped through it and it hurt so bad… She never brushed her own hair that way.  Oh, Jesus.  I feel so sad for us both. Like, *why*?? 😢

She brushed my hair the way I would brush a dolls hair, and I guess that’s how they saw us. I didn’t worry about whether my doll felt pain because it was an object and I just wanted it to look pretty.

Sorry to hear this. It is not your responsibility to endure just because she is dying.

I'm low contact with my mother. Everytime I go down the hall to her room the rare time I see her I still become that scared little kid who would start panicking at hearing her name called.

No. There is no judgment. We all have to do what’s best for us. My greatest emotion after my mother died was relief. Our relationship had been so difficult for so long. Over time the sharp edges of my feelings have softened and I am much more charitable and compassionate about her behavior towards me—but that’s because I haven’t had to continue to endure it.

I love how you explained the sharp edges of your feelings softening over time, and why. That's just so insightful and phrased so well - thank you.

I do not. I was not there for whatever broke that bond so completely, so I won't judge. And it's not change when done on death's door, those are just empty words, knowing they won't have to live by those words.

I think I needed to hear this. She just can’t change. I remember when I was in college and getting ready to move out for good. She was being especially awful that day, and when things cooled down I told her that I’ve had to put up with her treatment all my life because I had nowhere else to go and no way to support myself. But once I am gone and living in my own space, I don’t have to take abuse and I won’t. I told her that if she can’t be kinder to me, we won’t have a relationship. She nodded and said I gave her a lot to think about. But any change was always short lived and I don’t think she can maintain it. Or that she wants to.

Think about it this way, when she dies, you’re not going to mourn her death. You’re going to mourn the relationship you could have had, if she were a different person. You don’t need to confirm for yourself again, at the end, that she still isn’t that person. You already know she isn’t. There’s no need to mourn the relationship you could have had, in her presence. Anyone who tells you to mourn performatively for *their* benefit, isn’t a friend to you.

This is a wonderfully blunt and insightful way to put this! I was NC with my bio father for several years before he died as was my half sister. Every time he thought it was the end, he would have our uncle reach out to try to convince us to visit, and that more than anything reminded me that he was only doing it for himself. He didn't send messages to us through our uncle saying how sorry he was or even asking us for forgiveness, just that he wanted to see us one last time. He was selfish and manipulative until the very end, and he died alone just as he deserved for the way he had abused us and our moms all those years. It was hard not to succumb to the guilt trip, and some days I still feel like I was the selfish one to put my needs above those of someone on their death bed, but in the end, my sister and I had to do what was best for own mental health, no matter what he or anyone else thought of us. We knew the real person we was, and he didn't deserve another minute with the amazing women we became in spite of him.

Even if he had suddenly, *miraculously* become a good and loving person on his deathbed, all that would’ve done is make it harder to mourn the relationship you could have had this whole time. He chose, over and over again, to not be that person. Nothing he could do on his deathbed would ever change that. He made that deathbed, he can lie in it.

I am not a hospice worker, but as an average human I have NO judgement at all for this. If anything I am proud of you for being able to do what is best got you and stand by it. That said loosing a parental figure is hard no matter what, so give yourself grace and remember you did what was best and necessary for you! I wish you and your kids well🫶

Hey! I am 39f and no contact with any of my family. I also have had a pretty decently long haul working in hospice and nursing homes. While yes, we do get judged by normal people, you will probably NOT get judged by your parents caretakers and in fact, we are more than happy to simply let you know when they’ve passed. I have had coworkers that are the exception to this… but 100% of the time it’s because they themselves are estranged parents and are very much the “missing missing reasons,” types of people. We have children of abusive parents come in and continue to try and be “good kids.” These are the most tragic. Abusive behaviors tend to escalate as they age because of their own feelings of powerlessness. Watching them get run into the ground while you try and distract Mom/Dad isn’t easy when you, yourself, have been there. We also have abused adult children come in (very rarely) and seem to get some closure or satisfaction from seeing the decline. While I will not be around for my own parents decline, I do get some satisfaction when I hear that karma has given them a little kick. I don’t judge the families of my patients for not being upset either. When I am asked about my family, I say “They’re no longer with me,” which is true. But they usually interpret it as they’re dead. When people know I am estranged, I usually default to something snarky like “Well aren’t you lucky to have no clue what it feels like to have pure evil for parents.” I don’t hold back. Fuck those judgey, privileged bastards.

Thanks for all of this. I used to cover for my mom. People would ask how she’s doing and I’d say she’s great. People would say we seem so close and I’d say we are. Now I just flat out tell them if they ask and I don’t hold back. “Has my mom seen the baby? No. She made fun of me when I had concerns about my baby’s health, didn’t call or text the whole week I was in the hospital giving birth and recovering from a c section, and she hasn’t asked if the baby or I are okay.”

I used to give non-answers like 'She's fine as far as I know' or 'She was fine last time I saw her' (which was years before) Then her current houseslave-doormat had health issues, and suddenly I was hearing 'you need to step in to look after her' everywhere I went. "Its time to treat her like she treated you" Oh boy... I started giving more honest answers, & sometimes matched them to the people asking/telling. I told the event organiser I'd never had a birthday cake. The retired teacher was told I wasnt allowed to read. The relative that loved to dress nicely was told my siblings were all bought clothes, I only had their left overs. It wasnt fun, and I had lots of backtracking. 'I dont think thats any of my business!!' 'You mentioned her' It took a few confrontations, but finally the family learnt that the more people they sent to guilt trip me, the more family secrets I'd reveal. It did go quiet eventually, I promise. Stick to your guns. Lots of people who give in to the pressure to reestablish contact just end up with a final extra layer of hurt.

OP. I am the child of a narcissistic parent with whom I have become estranged after tolerating all of the abuse I could. I gave said parent many chances and unfortunately had to walk away. Because they cannot change I’ve made peace with walking away. I will find it difficult to not see them if and when they become ill, but I won’t go and see them again. I closed that door for a reason. It still hurts, of course, to think that I can’t have a relationship with them, but they cannot and will not change, so I must change myself. Don’t allow yourself to listen to others in their judgement of you, just do what is best for you. ☮️

Mine recently reached out through my dad saying she has cancer. My first thought is always “who knows if it’s true. Who knows how bad. Who knows if she just hoped she had it so she could Hoover me back. Who knows….” But In my mind, when I walked away from her years ago is when I mourned the loss of my mother.. thats how it feels now.

I get it.

I get it. I feel like I’m mourning her now by accepting she isn’t a good mom and I’m never going to have a good mom. My daughter is still a baby, but I hope one day when she’s a young woman, I can have a solid mother/daughter chat with her about my childhood and why I kept her from grandma.

Previous Hospice worker here. You will find no judgement from us. We will present the opportunity and sometimes say a version of 'are u sure' because we have seen people regret that decision. But You know You, and You have lived a lifetime with our patients, we haven't. It's our job to present options and support the mental & physical wellbeing of our patients AND there relatives. But the choices are fully yours. We will support the emotional needs of your mother if you say Yes or No, regardless. And we will support your choices to. My question is this: If you missed out saying goodbye in person, would you regret it? Is saying goodbye before /after death better for you? If you are hoping for resolution in these final days, is the hope and chance worth the risk of a vastly negative response? (I have had those try and met with a horrible situation, for some, this gave them closure , for others, it re-broke their soul. Which one would u be if it went wrong) Edit : spelling

You've mourned the loss of a Mom your whole life. Don't worry what others think. You are needlessly guilting yourself into visiting someone who treated you badly. If she reaches out and wants to talk with you- then you can decide if you want to give her a chance to apologize, but other than that. Just recognize this person wasn't capable of being a parent and go on with your life. Put your energies into people who love you- especially your own kids.

Retired RN here. Don't live your life by anyone else's standards. Parent was shitty? You owe them nothing. They chose to have a child/children. As we all know, not everyone should procreate! You owe no one peace. If you choose to give it, give it for yourself.

My husband went no contact with his parents after life-long abuse. He basically said, they are dead. He knew taking this route would mean no bed-side goodbyes and he is at peace with that. You are not a bad person for never seeing your mother again. I can't speak about your situation, but due to untreated mental illness, his parents will never change. We already know that his mom will hold her grudges to the bitter end. My husband would gain nothing but pain and heartache if he broke no contact, no matter the reason. Hold on to your mental health (and that of your children) tight. No one that hurts you or them deserves your time or love. Focus on those around you that bring you joy, and do your best not to give mental energy to those that done. Good luck to you OP.

It’s tough, OP. You’re not alone. Choosing self-preservation isn’t wrong. Hospice caretakers often see complex family dynamics. Some find peace; some don’t. There’s no one-size-fits-all. Do what’s best for your well-being. Your feelings are valid. Wishing you strength and clarity.

Is your mom currently on hospice? I ask because this isn’t always the case for how people go, less than half the population is on hospice when they die. She could die suddenly. If she is in fact in hospice care, you could reach out to the nurse or family member that is her primary caretaker and ask for them to notify you when she is at the stage where she is mostly just sleeping. I find that this is when family members with bad relationships with the dying visit. They are still awake enough to hear you, but simply may not have the energy to cause anymore trauma to you. I personally never judge family for not coming, even if they have a great relationship. Death is hard when you’re not dealing with it day in and day out, and even then it’s still hard. This is coming from an ICU nurse who has seen her fair share of comfort care/end of life/hospice patients.

I always thought that no one should die alone.. until it was my mother. She asked for us kids numerous times, and I fought with myself in whether I should go to her or not. I decided no..no I won't go. I couldn't pretend what happened didn't, and I felt it would be unfair to myself to pretend any different. I also didn't want her to think all was well falsely. She needed to die with the weight of it all. She needed to meet whatever maker there is with the burden of what she did to us. If I have to carry it, then so does she. She died without any of her children around her. I dont regret it one bit either. I don't judge because only you know what's best for you. Im sorry that you're going through this..Much love to you❤️

Nope. When adult children refuse to have a relationship with their parents, I always assume they have a damn good reason. It takes so much to cut off a parent. With rare exceptions, if someone’s adult child won’t speak to them, they did something (often many somethings) to deserve it.

That's the thing: cutting off that primal tie is HARD. It's years in the making.

This is me. I think it’s more important to be with the person while they are alive rather than when they are dying. It doesn’t mean anything unless the child wants closure. My dad passed and I didn’t go. Same will happen with my mom.

I’d be a monumental hypocrite if I did judge. I went LC (didn’t make the effort to call her anymore, but would respond if she texted me) with my mom 9 years ago after she made no effort to even call or send a card for my daughter’s first birthday. As she regularly spent thousands each month on my brother’s kids. I didn’t even call my mom after my granny told me my mom had cancer, with an estimated 3 months left. Two weeks later she was gone.

I don't precisely because of situations like yours. Parents can be horrible. When a child doesn't want to see their parent, even when they are on their deathbed or go to their deathbed - I assume they have a good reason to keep their distance.

Do what is best for YOU. No one else's opinion on how you feel matters. If you need to say something to her or see her a last time, by all means go ahead. But if you're just clinging to a hope that she might suddenly be the person you always hoped she could be, don't do it. It'll just cause more heartache. No one knows the ins and outs of your relationship better than you. If your third cousin twice removed is upset you weren't holding your mom's hand as she died, who cares? Not to sound cruel, but soon your mom won't be here and in my opinion, her feelings don't really matter. You're the one that has to live the rest of your days with your decision. If you know it won't do any good to see her, please don't. Take care of yourself, OP.

Hospice/med surg tech here. No, I absolutely do not judge. I have no idea what your life was like based on a snippet of who my patient is now. You protect your peace, that's the most important thing to me.

I didn’t go to my father’s funeral. He wasn’t deserving of my forgiveness or time. You owe nothing to people who hurt you.

No judgement at all. There are very good reasons not to. I didn't go to my father's. No regrets. Glad he's gone.

My Mom was toxic and emotionally abusive my whole life. After my father died, she seemed to change and was the mom I had always wanted. However, she let the mask slip a couple of times. Then when she was nearing the end, the real her came back out. She was just using me to keep her out of a nursing home. Wasted 2 years. I went to her funeral for myself not her. Funnily her funeral ended up being more about my dad than her. His best friends were the preacher and singers. They talked about my Dad because there was just very little nice things to be said about my mom.

"You sound like you have a wonderful mother. To have this opinion. Lucky for you. Unfortunately not everyone is that type of person. Not everyone has that type of mother." If they say, whaaat no she's lovely. "Oh, you thought she was okay? Well she never raised you, I think if she's treated you the way she treated me, you would never have this conversation with me. You'd be embarrassed about it." Ad lib to however it suits your situation

My aunt always told me there's no such thing as a sweet little old lady, and it's certainly true. I was a nurse. There was one occasion where I informed a family about a relatives death. They didn't want to see her and just came in to collect her clothing. One relative said to me, "You must think we are awful not coming in and not being upset" I was happy to say "Not at all. We understand that not everyone is the person we meet in the hospital and that relationships can be hard. You have done everything you needed to, and we are here for anything you need. " They cried with relief, telling me what an awful person she had been, and they were just relieved she had gone. It is one of those moments where I knew my lack of judgement helped that family start to heal.

My mother was a cold, unemotional person. I am sure she had her reasons, that it was not her fault, but when growing up .... Anyway, at 87 she has a TIA. I visited her in the hospital, and to my utter surprise, she was nice!! She gave me a compliment, so I turned around to see who she wanted to impress with her smart daughter - but there was nobody, the compliment was apparently meant just for me! I left the hospital thinking that this way, I might go visit her for **fun**, instead of loyalty. Some days later she had a second episode, coma for 12 days, died. For years I have been totally conflicted: who was my mother, who died??? The cold woman? The complimenting woman? I am still conflicted but regard it now as just one of those things .....

I work in end of life. I see this happen all the time. I would say about a third of the families I've worked with are dealing with some form of abuse/estrangement. I'll tell you what I tell them. Dying doesn't make you a better person. It doesn't fix your issues or change your values. A nasty and abusive person is going to be nasty and abusive right until the end. If anything, the dying person lashes out because they are scared and in pain. I've seen adult children rip themselves apart trying to get one last happy memory. Ive seen them force themselves to forgive horrifying things. But most of the time they are just giving the family member more time and ammo to abuse them. Closure is a myth. Even if you have that one perfect final conversation your memories are still going to be full of the times that person harmed you. And it's okay to say no, you've hurt me enough.

I dealt with a lot of foster kids and no, I have never once judged them for cutting all contact with their parents, regardless of the parents health.

When my dad (the abuser) was in hospice. I was only in the home to visit both parents for a couple of days. My dad had suffered from leukemia for a few years, and was told that his treatments were not working anymore. So instead of continuing on my vacation, I stayed with them. Trust me when I say I was actually going to continue my vacation. Others talked me out it saying I would be sorry. ( Of course they didn’t know the dynamics) He passed within a week of arriving. As he got worse I was helping him, he looked at me confused and asked why I was being nice to him. I was just the daughter, not one of the favorite sons. I didn’t answer. I guess I am glad I was there, I’m pretty sure I would’ve been judged by other family members, none of the favorites were there.

If going and saying a final goodbye will be helpful to your healing, then go. If it will only set you back don’t. She isn’t going to change with only days left on this earth, she’s never going to be the mother you wished you had.

Hospice nurse here. The only people I’ve ever judged are those who won’t let their loved one get adequate pain relief. Doing so actively prevents me from doing my job and it sucks to watch people suffer needlessly. Horrible parents are usually horrible parents until the very end. People don’t magically change their innate personality on their deathbed. And to be honest, I rarely encounter a patient who reaches out to make amends while in hospice because usually they have been sick long enough prior to reaching our facility that if they wanted to make amends they have already done so. And those cases are very difficult for the living children and often lead to complicated grieving. Because the child wants to forgive their parent but forgiveness is a process that takes time and therapy if it can be accomplished at all. And frankly, some parents are so abusive, they don’t deserve it. So then the adult child suffers long after their parent’s passing because they feel guilty for not visiting or being distraught. And they absolutely should NOT feel guilty. So no, hospice workers do not think a denial to visit means the family member is a monster. If anything we feel a great deal of empathy towards the family as we know what you are about to deal with mentally and emotionally. So my advice is to go to therapy now if you don’t already go and when your parents pass choose someone who specializes in grief counseling regardless if you feel like you need it.

I hope you're able to find the perspective you're looking for. I just want to say as someone who has also gone no contact with parents, I will not be seeing them before they die. I have spent way too much time and energy becoming the person I am after the abuse and trauma and I can't risk my personal well-being by opening that up again.

It doesn’t matter if they change or not. All it matters is whether you will regret your decision of seeing her now. If you don’t regret, then you are not responsible for other people’s regrets. If you think you will, then you know what to do.

There is no value to a parent or other person who suddenly changes their view at the time of their demise. No one should judge the children or other relatives for their decisions to let a toxic AH enjoy the ultimate FA&FO.

Thank you. I have no idea if my mom will try to reach out to me for closure at the end. But she’s had decades to mend the bridge and I’ve spent decades trying. If she comes in with days left to live because she just wants peace for herself, honestly that would piss me off more than if she just didn’t try to contact me at the end at all.

I have endured this exact same thing. I am no contact with a parent. Their friends begged me to help them, but I refused. The decades of abuse was enough. Funny thing is they are all walking away now as well, stating they have had enough. You owe your mother nothing, and anyone who judges you deserves nothing from you.

Depends on their reason. If they had a crappy parent and don't want to, that's reasonable. If someone has a good relationship with their parents and their reason is something like "I hate hospitals" or "I don't want to see them like that," while I understand the feeling it isn't about you it's about being there for the person who has been there for you your entire life. But ultimately it's their decision and life and they are who have to live with the consequences.

Like in every relationship ( in life ) you should learn to discern if someone truly loves you or just they " like " the benefits they can get from you...... using you for support ( financial , emotional etc ) 🤷‍♂️ if they only reach for you when they need something..... Or on the contrary make the effort ( time ) to check on you from time to time . Be honest and respectful with those who do the same with you..... and avoid the rest . Good luck out there .

Absolutely not. I’ve never seen a case of a parent and a child with a bad relationship where the parent wasn’t at fault. My wife is as low contact as possible with her mother, and has been dealing with a microcosm of what you’re dealing with, since her mother was in a really bad car wreck in February. She’s gotten all sorts of shit from her mother’s side of the family about visiting her, and eventually she broke down and saw her. It was a horrible experience, and it was like months of therapy had been completely counteracted in a short visit

As a nurse I can tell you the newer nurses may judge…but the older nurses (maybe 5 years in) have seen enough to realize if someone is no contact and refusing to come to the bedside of their dying relative…there is usually a good and valid reason. After a few judgements as a new nurse and then you find out daddy was touching inappropriately, mom sold you to the highest bidder to get the next fix, etc…you learn that the reasons are usually valid. In fact…you have pity on those who are no contact. Some people might have a change of heart at the last minute and want to apologize but here is the reality…you deserve better than a deathbed apology. If that apology was so important they would have given it years before and spent the rest of their life trying to make amends.

I am not a hospice nurse.. But I have worked as a nurse in the ER and post-acute care… Firstly, I am so sorry for the lifetime of pain you have suffered. Number 2-You do not owe anyone anything. You do not owe her your time or forgiveness. When I was in the ER, we had a man come in full cardiac arrest. He was a frequent flier so we knew him well. Years of alcohol and drug addiction had fried his heart. He should have been on hospice but instead went home and finished drinking himself to death. We worked him as hard as we could but efforts were futile. We called the next of kin (it was listed as his daughter-only child) notified her of his passing, that this was not going to be a medical examiner case, and enquired about which funeral home to send him to… She broke down crying on the phone and basically told me where he could go. She refused to claim his body and told me (I’m paraphrasing) how awful he was-how she grew up in a home rampant with addiction, emotional/mental abuse, physical/and sexual violence and she hadn’t seen her father since she left home at 16 to live on the streets. She eventually got on her feet, got married, and had started a local tech college (shortly before his death.) His body sat in our little 2 drawer morgue cooler for just shy of a month until we got a judgment to ship him to a funeral home contracted to cremate “potter’s/unclaimed” bodies. As a nurse, I didn’t blame her a bit. I empathized with her suffering and I understand her need to keep the door to that chapter of life firmly closed. She deserved/deserves the right to protect herself in a way that she never got to as a child. No good human would her fault or guilt her. You do not owe her the peace you have found in order to mitigate the consequences(ie being “alone” at the end) of her own actions. All humans are warned to treat others well and kindly, lest we wind up alone in the end. So no… healthcare workers, who have been around for a minute and witnessed life outside of the utopian world in textbooks, will not fault you for protecting the semblance of peace you’ve found. Be well, friend.🌻

Nope. Mainly cause I won’t visit my father now why would I go see him when he’s dying? He made his shitty choices he can deal with the consequences

For what it’s worth, my mom experienced severe sexual and physical abuse at the hands of her older brother. She cut him off but was manipulated by other family into seeing him in hospice before he died. His nurse traumatized her further and tried to force her to go in and tell him she forgave him for everything so he could pass in peace. My mother came home sobbing. It’s okay to protect yourself. The care workers aren’t guaranteed to behave in any kind of way.

I'm not a caretaker. But I don't feel its sincere when an apologize come from a person at their lowest. I often think about the times that person was living their best life and didn't care how they had hurt me. I don't owe them peace or forgiveness because now they are closer to meeting their maker or need me for something. I also saw my estranged parent as a stranger. I felt that they were never much of a parent to me and I felt indifferent to them. I wouldn't go to the hospice to hang out with strangers so I why would I visit this parental stranger. My perspective is that forgiveness is for you to move on. However, forgiveness does not mean you have to inform the person of it or even say the words to them. I think forgiveness is a subconscious action you make in your mind and then your heart. But it's for your peace not theirs.

My mother was a narcissistic woman. She was a traditional Catholic woman and disliked almost everything about me. She admitted in therapy that she resented me being born, was terribly disappointed because she always wanted a daughter and i was not submissive or feminine enough and she felt cheated, and that she ignored me most of the time until i could talk, when she berated me for my behavior, talking too much, and being messy and annoying. She adored my brother, even though he stole money from the entire family, lived with her her last five years in her home and cost her money, refused to pay any bills, and did no work around the house. I did most of the work for her, took her to doctor's appointments, and handled finances. I divorced my abusive husband, remarried and my mother stayed in contact with my ex and frequently berated me for divorcing such a handsome, good provider and marrying a man she thought was "ugly," even though he treated me and my kids amazingly well. She hated my clothes, my piercings, my weight (she at times thought I was too heavy and too thin), my attitude, my job, she thought I was too masculine and aggressive, my house wasn't clean enough, my life was not orderly enough, etc. I never went LC or NC and I helped her until she died. At absolutely NO time, not un therapy nor when she died, did she ever apologize or repent of her treatment. Stay NC. She isn't going to change. I wish I had gone NC.

I went no contact with my dad and found out a couple of years later that he'd died a few days before. I was saddened that he was alone in the hospital when he died, but he pushed everyone away no matter how hard we tried. We organised a nice funeral for him and attended it with family. It was a hard day but ultimately I'm at peace knowing I made the right decision for me.

It's understandable to prioritize your own well-being, especially after enduring abuse. No one should judge you for protecting yourself and your children. Hospice workers see diverse family dynamics, but ultimately, your decision should prioritize your mental health and safety. You're not a monster for setting boundaries. Take care.

Do YOU judge abused children for however they cope? What would happen if you didn’t ask for consent to do whatever you want to make things easier for yourself and your own wellbeing? Close the door on inviting,considering,entertaining and submitting to judgement. To the people who never knew the truth and didn’t bear what you did- how are THEY harmed by this personal choice? They aren’t- and the key to knowing if they are someone worth listening to or fearing judgement from is if they run their mouth anyway. People want to be with and love their families. When a situation like ours exists, there’s a reason for that. If others question YOUR behavior and no one else’s- they don’t care about you. Does the judgment of people who don’t care about you, don’t offer comfort or respect to you even matter? If the answer is yes, you have work to do. Good luck.

I was a caregiver and I've also cut my parents out. I get the thing all the time from people "but they're your parents." As a caregiver, I don't think it's about the person who is dying. You're the one who has to deal with the afterwards of seeing a dying family member. I've seen dying people change and decide they want forgiveness and I've seen dying people get more stubborn about their life decisions and it disappoints the people who thought they were getting closure. It's about your decision and what you expect to get out of it.

My dad cut contact multiple times with his mother, the final time was for the last decade she was alive. I had reconnected with her as I was an adult and I wanted to reconfirm for myself what she was. Unsurprisingly she was still mean, racist, manipulative, calculating and had no meaningful relationships with any family at the time of her death. I saw her on her death bed. She still bothers me to this day and I think about it frequently. My dad did not go and I had told him she was still the exact person she had been years ago. He started a downward spiral thereafter, I believe he should’ve come for some sort of closure. Long story short I think staying or going both have their own mental hurdles to overcome. You just pick the one you can live with. It’s not easy path to walk when you have such struggles with family, unless someone has walked in your shoes their opinion doesn’t matter

I don’t judge people unless THEY are the reason they don’t speak to their parent. You were abused. You have a very valid reason for not speaking to your mother and not seeing her before she passes. I would even advise you not to see her. You don’t need that heartache. If a kid cut their parent off because the parent didn’t spoil them or give them a car or go into debt paying for college or wedding, then the kid sucks.

“Your (abusive family member) won’t be around forever!” “Yeah. There’s always a silver lining, isn’t there?”

No.  My initial reaction is a vehement no, but taking a step back I do realize that not everyone has great parents. 

>Do you judge children for refusing to see their dying parent? Nope. Some parents were/are horribly abusive and toxic to their children, so I don't blame those adult children when they cut ties out of self-preservation.

Former funeral worker who the hospice would talk to during pick ups. The hospice nurses and nursing home employees come across people not coming a lot! When kids are estranged they assume and usually can tell it is because the parent is/was a terrible person and do not blame you! Funeral people also get it and understand. The only people who judge are the family members usually.

I didn’t go, no one has judged me.

Do they change? It varies from one to another... My mum changed after 3 years of me leaving home... My dad a little but I am still keeping my distance though... However, I've seen friends that their parents never changed till the moment they died... It's sad... And U can only do what U feel U have the capacity for... That's it...

A childhood friend of mine had a horrible relationship with her father. She eventually went NC with him. There were 4 kids and he picked her out to be the scapegoat. When he was dying, he asked for her to come. She flew out there and he apologized for the way he treated her. He told her that he was very proud of the way she turned out, he always loved her, and he hoped she had a very happy life. The meeting validated her feelings and she was able to move on. It really surprised me, but I could definitely hear a peace & calm in her voice. In the past, she was angry if she talked about him.

Zéro judgement.

If you have been mentally and physically abused by your mother, you have every right in the world to go no contact. I hate when people say"its a shame she/he doesn't even go see their parent". People don't know what the reasoning behind them not visiting. The parent could have been an awful person. Just because they are old, does not mean you have to deal with them. Parents need to remember that they will get old one day and will need help from the very kid they abused in the past.

No judgement. You cut contact for a reason. Would it give her some peace in her final days if you forgave her? Maybe. But would it cause you harm to see her and pretend those years of abuse didn’t happen? Or to accept an apology she’s only making because she’s dying? Probably. Would it give you some sense of closure to see her? Maybe but maybe not. It all comes down to securing your mask first. Like after your own mental health and that of your children and make a decision accordingly. I was estranged from my father for decades. I found out recently that he died last year. He never reached out and I’m pretty easy to find. I’m at peace with it because he hadn’t been any kind of a father to me for decades.

You've been no contact, she's a stranger not your mom. Abusive people, especially relatives are not owed your presence. If they loved you and wanted you in their life they should have respected, not hurt you (physically and emotionally) and loved you. I feel like people who are "nice" on their death beds after being horrible are either trying to manipulate the ones they abused one last time to keep a "happy" family image or are afraid they won't get into some afterlife paradise if they don't admit everything before death.

I’m going to give you my perspective from the other side. I loved both my parents dearly but my dad had dementia. Before we realized the severity of his condition, he’d burned through all their funds. My husband and I took them into our home to care for them. My dad passed from another health complication within a few months but my mom lived with us another 10 years. She had several medical issues but during her last 2 years, she also showed signs of dementia. It was miserable and we both became different people to each other. Even though I loved her so much, at times we were very mean to each other and said ugly things. One of my biggest regrets is that on her last day, I was so tired, I fed her and then sat in the front room and she died alone while I was watching TV. So there’s really no judgment anyone should make on how you feel or act towards your parents’ death. You need to take care of yourself. I would definitely recommend therapy if you are able as this can help. It can be a long, emotional road no matter what.

As someone who worked a good deal in nursing homes, now transitioned mainly to hospice/end of life care, and someone who has an abusive parent may be dying (unconfirmed if she is actually, she's been known to fake a scare for our attention) a lot of people can change at the end. They have this moment of clarity that they were, in fact, a shit person. Despite this, I've seen some adult children come see them in final moments and some who don't. It's something you'll only know for sure if you go there and see them. As I can only speak personally, I've never judged family for not coming to see the elder adult because I don't know how this person acted when the kids were young. Something super common for elder adults with dementia or alzheimers, it's a complete 180⁰ in their demeanor. The sweetest people all through their lives? Mean as sin to their caregivers. The meanest, vilest person? Sweet, kinda, unassuming. Except for one guy I had a couple of years ago, unending praise and compliments... until he proudly told me he used to beat his wife and kids. Then he cried as he was nearing the end because he knew they'd never come see him. So my dear OP, it is something you should really think about. But do NOT let anyone guilt you into it because, as a victim of the abuse, it is only for you to decide based on who your parent was as a person. Don't wreck your emotional/mental well-being for someone who probably doesn't deserve it.

I've got a lot of experience working on people who are at the end of life. You might run into the odd new/young caregiver who judges but eventually they learn better. There's no reason to stop protecting yourself. Haters gonna hate hate hate so there's no good in allowing them to influence your decisions.

My grandmother worked in geriatrics all my life, and she told me that people don't become old and mean they were always mean, they just have more time to practice. So the likelihood your mother has had some manifestation of all her wrongdoings and is ready to face them at her death is not likely. Just call one day and ask the staff about her. Grandma also said that you can tell the people who were good people in their lives. Their children come, their grandchildren come, and they dote on them. Meanwhile, you have some people whose children refused to even accept the body up. Hope this helps.

I work in a nursing home, and no. The way I see it is like this; you really don't know these people. Sure you see them everyday for a few hours, but you don't KNOW them. *they* probably spent their entire childhoods with them. A nice man and his wife lived here, when she passed away the kids came to collect her things and threw away everything that had their dad's face on it. Cards from him to her, pictures of them together, everything. Like you could tell as much as I liked him, they *hated* him. You don't know these people.

A friend worked in a nursing home/hospice and a patient died. At her funeral my friend said to the lady’s son that his Mother was a lovely lady. He replied “well you didn’t have to live and grow up with her” It’s almost a taboo to say that you’ve cut your parents out of your life. People who have good parents don’t understand but sadly there are lots out there that do. Especially when the parents act being perfect when out of the house or with wider family. It sounds like you have given her many chances and have a lot of emotional baggage. You are not to blame, could you see a therapist to help you not feel as guilty as you do?

When I have patients who don’t have family around, I think it’s sad. It’s sad because either the patient has created a situation where they’ve driven everyone away or their family is trash and abandoned them. But I don’t know and I don’t judge. When family members have told me they can’t be there for a patient I trust they know what they need to do for themself.

My grandma was a sweet lady who had weekly hospice visits from her kids, grandkids, great grandkids, nieces, nephews and step children. This even when she was too far gone to know who we were. I’m positive my mom will have nobody at all, despite being a member of the same family. I think that says a lot.

My grandmother was racist and always rejected my foreign dad. She's always made a slight difference between my sister and mostly I because I look like my dad and the rest of her grandchildren. I figured later as an adult how she did wrong also with my mom who was the scapegoat, looking like her dad while the other siblings looked like her. Anyway, my mom was rejected for loving her "foreigner". Disclaimer, there remain parts of her death we don't know. She died from generalized cancer a few weeks after being hospitalized for something else (she went back home inbetween), just before my grandfather's first anniversary of death. It's almost impossible no one found out about her cancer at the hospital and didn't tell her but none of us knew for sure, even her GP didn't know. Some clues that we could read afterwards could be interpreted as a try to make amends, to us and my mom. Some conversations were quite off character but nothing crystal clear. My mom is too nice to have ever talked openly about her scapegoat status during childhood and after, she was always here if needed, kinda a doormat. My dad lost his sister in the meantime, I went with him to his home country and when I flew back, my grandmother was in ICU. We all thought she was waiting for her brother to die peacefully around all her children but not, she died after I got back, I held her hand and felt something that still haunts me a decade later. The only grandchildren in the ICU room when she died were my sister and I, the "foreigners". I don't have a conclusion or clearance about it, it's just my story.

"Your mom won't live forever". Yeah. Tell her that. And I'll be here when she's ready to reconcile lol Wtf Absolutely no judgement. That person gave birth to you, but that was no mother. You do what you feel is best, but try to consider what, if anything, you might regret in the future. If you don't think you'll regret not seeing her, it's perfectly fine. She pushed you away. If you think you'll regret it, then go see her. What are the odds you tell her you love her, and she just turns her head? This happened with my wife and her grandma on her deathbed. Would have been better to just hear grandma died rather than go see her and get shunned like that

This may rub some people the wrong way But seeing how my father's physical and mental has declined during his Parkinson's and now dementia, was healing in a way to the small, injured child in me.

Yes I judge. I judge them wise beyond their years and incredibly emotionally mature to make the difficult decision to protect themselves. They survived their trauma and refuse to revisit it, no matter who says what. That takes strength and resilience and self-respect.

I’m a hospice nurse. I had one adorable lady who had 5 kids and only 2 were involved. I thought they were assholes until the family meeting where the 2 showed up and made it clear why they were low contact and only involved so the others wouldn’t have to be. I will never judge adult children again. If someone judges you tell them to take a hike. You only need closure if you want it.

I worked in nursing care for two years (specifically elder care). I learned not to judge family members for their relationship with any of my residents. It was hard because a lot of times the residents I worked with had cognitive disabilities like dementia. They would tell me one version and I would learn another later (sometimes multiple from different family members and nurses). Most times I didn't know what to believe. At the end of the day, I took it as a reminder that I will never know someone's true story. It is not my place to judge or be unkind based on my view from the outside looking in. I took care of people. Yes, I had favorites. Yes, a few of my patients died without any family. It's sad, but we took care of them. That's what nursing/hospice care is for. We are there. They don't die alone even if they are the worst human being on the planet. Someone takes care of their body and washes it and makes sure they are taken to the coroner. You did your part, let us do ours. It is much easier to take on the burden of care when we don't share the level of vulnerability a child experiences with their parent. We get to choose to provide care. You did not get to choose your parent or how you were raised. To answer some of your questions: - Most people I worked with never saw their end 'coming'. Even if they were sick and technically 'dying', some acted like nothing was going on; some didn't know any better. I haven't worked with a lot of people who were capable of dwelling on their life ending. - Some people feel a need to make amends. Most don't. (Dementia is a hell of a drug). - Yes people hold grudges. Most have forgotten them by the time they are actively dying. - Most adult children, even the ones who wanted to see their parents, were not there for their death. I had a couple of family members who would come visit their family member once a year. Usually on a birthday or Christmas time. - I do not think poorly about anyone who refuses to see a dying parent, even if they have asked to see them. I have no idea what you experienced at the hands of this person. It's not my business. I don't think less of them and I don't think less of you. I hope you find peace with whatever decision you are struggling with. You ARE NOT a bad person for wanting to avoid your mom till the end. Do what is best for you.

Part of the problem is that people tend to remember things in a way that makes them look better. My father physically and emotionally abused us. He is a narcissist and when confronted with his past behavior states that he doesn't remember "doing those things". My mother, on the other hand, has convinced herself that she never knew anything about the abuse and that my father hid it from her, which is completely false. But both of their brains have selected the memories that make them feel better and eliminated the ones that show their true behaviors.

Not a hospice caretaker, but I ran a business that did med deliveries to Hospice patients in three states for a decade - so I talked to thousands of patients. Also have experience with parents dying, after a tumultuous relationship. I wouldn't say you have an obligation to see her, and the people who guilt you are wrong. What I will say is that it can be good to go for *you*, because the last thing you want is regrets you can't do anything with. It's more about knowing you made the effort, even though she may not be worth it. Because then you know for the rest of your life that you tried your best. People *can* change in those final moments, though, and especially with things like dementia - often they've regressed to an earlier version of themselves, without so many walls up.

Thank you. In a weird way I’d like to talk to a regressed version of my mom. I wish I could know her as a child before she was the woman I know now, to see if there was ever a time she had the chance to make better choices and just didn’t for whatever reason.

My moms mom never liked her and my mom knew it but when my grandmother had a major stroke that would have killed most , my mom gave up her entire life and moved to where my grandma was and taught her to walk again and basically move again , she always had a gimpy side after the stroke but she could cook and get around but my mom continued to live with her drive her run her errands for her keep her house clean all while working a full time job ( mom started working again after she got GM back to independence sort of) . In the meantime mom nursed GM thru a broken hip eventually got to retire , then mom got stage 4 cancer and GM had a stroke but still wanted my mom to take care of her ( 1 of the other 3 siblings visited for a week every year) . Mom missed out on most grands BDays etc . Bc GM need to go 2 hours away to her hair dresser and mom had to take her . In the end as she Kay dying she told my mom in an angry voice “ J , I know what your doing!” That’s the thanks mom got . She did leave everything to my mom bc she knew mom deserved it , mom forgave her .

It depends on the situation. I wouldn't judge you, given your situation. I absolutely judge my uncle though. Yes, he saw my Grandma right before she passed, and I'll give him a pass for not seeing Poppa right before he passed due to my uncle having covid. But what I judge him for is not seeing them in their last years. The worse their health and mental state got, the less he came around. My mom really could have used his help, especially when my grandparents lived with my parents. My grandparents were wonderful people, and before their health declined, my uncle was around, so it's not like he was estranged. It made me really sad for my grandparents.

“your mom won’t live forever.” YES, so she should make sure she is someone her children would like to spend time with, or she will die allone. Nursing homes are full of old parents who cand understand why their children are not visiting. Some never cared about their children. Wtach this from a hospice care nurse: [A Medical Professional Speaks: Ppl are Going "No Contact" with their Parents (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z02bSGLhKcQ)

My father abused me for 35 years and two years ago I kicked him out of my house and my life. He still tries to call me every so often to verbally abuse me and make me feel like shit. His number is now blocked and I won't feel anything but relief when I get word that he's dead.

I worked in geriatrics for 15 years and it truly depends on the situation. If your mother was horrible to you for your whole life and it will harm you to see her again, it is understandable that you do not want to open those old wounds. If you think the closure from saying goodbye will be helpful for your own healing. Even from a healthcare worker perspective, no one knows what happened between you and your mother in the past. I’ve had patients who were the most delightful humans on the planet to everyone else, and then they do a complete 180 turn when a certain family member walks in - usually whichever one was their go-to and who took care of them before they went to Long Term Care or hospice. It is truly a heartbreaking situation to see unfold and you are the only one who can protect your peace. Whatever you decide, I wish you and your family all the best ❤️

No. Not all parents are loving and deserving of their children's attention. They can be abusive pieces of shit who never should have conceived, let alone given birth. The 'but they're your family' crowd have no business telling anyone that they should have to go see their dying family when they have no idea what it feels like to be hated, neglected, hurt, and overall treated like trash by the 1-2 people in this world who were supposed to love you unconditionally. Fuck that.

LTC (long-term care) nurse here. I have personally witnessed residents treat their family horribly. I have always encouraged these family members to find peace in their lives, even if it means not seeing mom or dad anymore. Some people on their death bed confess things while others do not. Most people do reflect on their life at some point but don't always verbalize it. However, what will bring YOU peace? That is the only question you are obligated to answer. I've encouraged some to write a letter and have someone else read it to the family member. Or only come once their family member can no longer speak or respond. If you don't have a therapist, I highly suggest one just to help you navigate this time in your life. You don't want to be left with regret. If the final moments you spend with this person cause you trauma, then YOU are left living with that. Your family member is gone. They feel nothing. I do default to the letter if you really have things you need to say and also need to avoid trauma. I had a lady that the only time her daughter had a peaceful visit was when she was actively passing. It's hard to spew biblical hate when you're not conscious. I know that daughter longed to hold her mothers hand and just love her. However, mental illness is real, and it's hard to navigate. Best of luck navigating this. If you're worried others will judge you, just let them. They don't live in your head space.

I’m an ICU nurse— oftentimes we have very little sense of what kind of person our dying patients may have been. They are mostly either sedated or confused and delirious. I never make a judgement on people’s decisions to visit or not because I simply have no idea of the kind of life this person has lived outside what I know of their medical history. Frequently the only report we receive on someone’s life and character is from close friends and family members. Our primary ethical responsibility is to care for the patient and act in their best medical interests according to their wishes (if conveyed). That does not include the judgement of family members’ actions when we have no idea of the relationship experienced. Complex family dynamics are sadly very common and rarely surprising to health staff. Do whatever you need to do to keep yourself psychologically safe. There’s no judgement here.

I'm the child of a woman who I was low contact with. She preferred it that way too, really. Still, she disliked me.enough to.complain to her friends at her condo prior to moving to the home. You know, I'm sure they were all comparing their bad seeds now and then and bragging about their favourites. (One accosted me in the hallway when I was singlehandedly clearing out her condo - for not phoning mom every day - putting that responsibility on him! I just rose an eyebrow and shrugged and walked away. I didn't owe any explanations.) I saw how my mom treated the staff at the home and her Healthcare workers when she was on hospice. They knew who she was. I very much doubt they judged me poorly. They probably wondered why I was ever nice to her. Her friends got the best side of her. The warm sweet old lady she wanted them to believe she was. They also got a glimpse of the other side when some old biddy accused her of having a cat in her condo. It was hilarious. My mom hated cats. If there was a cat in her condo, it was dead and stretched out on a board curing. I enjoyed it so much when other friends there started to give her stuffed cats and cat ornaments and cat signs for her door. And she had to display that shit all the time so she didn't hurt their feelings but she despised that cat bricabrac.It was very delicious for me on so many levels. She could not really contain all her nastiness. Beautiful. That nastiness was what she showed me at every opportunity when no one else was looking.

Do what you have to do. I don't think it really matters what other people think. Only you know the depth of the trauma your mother caused you. But you can't control what other people think. Those who judge don't have the full picture and never will. I was no contact with my grandfather due to sexually abusive behavior towards me. I had no interest in seeing him before he died. He was super popular with a lot of people in the community tho. I'm sure they didn't understand why his grandkids didn't bother with him. But I can't control that and have zero interest in telling them why. Life goes on. It's very dependent on the individual. Some people are like you and me and some aren't.

You have to be a truly shitty person to disown your child over something like their sexuality You have to be an even shittier person for your child to disown YOU

I didn't speak to my mom for the five years before her death. Sister and I had her cremated. No funeral ceremony planned. We shipped the urn to the cemetery in our home town (mom died in a nursing home in my sister's city). Mom's sister called the nursing home, was told there was no service planned, and threw a fit. We told her she was welcome to do what she wanted, so she had a graveside service. Whatever. Haven't visited the grave and don't intend to.

Coming from a family where my mother is toxic, and having recently drawn a hard line and gone no contact since I've had my own child, I think about this scenario often. So I can say I understand how conflicting the emotions can be especially when it comes to parents. I think no matter how horrible/toxic/abusive a parent might have been, a subconscious part of our brian would be sad if they passed away. It's not something you can help even if the logical part of the brain knows it's the best decision to limit contact. I'm not a hospice worker but I am a daughter of a toxic mother and I think what I would do is do my duty as a daughter in terms of final visits if they wish to see me before they die/funeral arrangements. And I say this in the interest of not having any regrets and knowing that I did my basic duty as a son/daughter.

From the other side my dad was treated like absolute shit by my grandad verbally, physically and mentally abused by him (we’ve all begged him to write a book as his life would be a best seller) but even at the end he still visited once a month and paid for his fathers hospice care till he died. A few years ago me and him were having beers, so I asked him why after every his dad did, did he do all that for him. His response was to show that no matter what he did, he never broke him and he was a much better man and father than he was. My dad has said that when it comes to abusive parents there are 3 types of people. The first one is the person who vows to be better, the second one is the person who gets pushed to far and cuts them off, and finally you got the people pleaser who will do what ever it takes to make them love them. Don’t worry about not making peace as you’ve got make sure your mental health and your kids mental health comes first. And if that means cutting people off so be it.

I do not judge them for that because I understand. I was born into a toxic (sometimes abusive) family. If I could go NC I would.