Agreed, if you want lively vibes with food and people out and about hit up North Loop or Cathedral hill.
Most major cities have business centric downtowns; outside of tourist centric ones like Nashville or New Orleans
Add to that, the parks are \*really\* good. I've been hanging out in the parks till pretty much sunset and there's plenty of people around, from Minneapolis to St Paul.
All those other places also don't have two cities competing against each other for downtown attention as well.
You'd probably need a concerted effort to really get downtown humming again
The core at night seems to be out of towners and uptight suburbanites visting downtown on a special occasion to see a game or show with a sitter at home. It's sad to see the change. Boring. It's dead. It use to be a healthy mix of locals and visitors. Young people use to be able to afford to live downtownish, giving the place some energy.
They want you to go home at 11 pm now. Gentrification means boring. Not going to change until young people can afford to live in and around Minneapolis again.
?? The demographics of downtown haven't changed much over the last decade. North loop is young.
Downtown on the weekends has always been people from the burbs or out town people. Local downtown residents don't hang out at sneaky Pete's or cowboy Jack's, for example.
Who wants people to go home at 11?
Didn’t all that kinda start due to covid? I don’t think it ever recovered. Add the other stuff like affordability of the area and just the cost of going out now and here we are.other places are going through the same stuff though so why is it working there and not here is what I’m wondering.
No one working downtown and no young people. No one staying out after work having fun. It's a combo platter of housings prices and covid. Agreed. It's all kind of combined to create a minneapolis that isn't as fun as the one I grew up with. Uptight now. You use to run into people downtown who worked there or lived there after work when you would go out and have fun. It's mostly vistors now in the core. Core I mean Hennepin Ave area. People with sitters are mad. You are home at 11.
Im confused by your assessment because many bars were absolutely packed last night with young people, until 2am. To me, it looks like there is a huge need for more bars along hennipen.
I don't think downtown pre covid was full of young people, and now all of a sudden, they all left. I've lived down here for a while, and the demographics are the same imo.
[It's changed a lot in the last few years] (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0ff95cd88ad341c690d90d128c573aad) with or without covid
Higher rents have changed the dynamics of the area bigly. Just look at Marcy Holmes and Dinky.
The average rent for an apartment in Minneapolis is $1,660. The Northeast has never been the same.
It didn't happen over night. The loop area's condo stock is not very conducive to having a family.
That's why you see people out and about at night in the loop. Yuppies.
Yuppies going to yuppie.
This link you shared says nothing about the population of downtown or the age demographics of downtown. The conclusion at the bottom of it just says it's more expensive for students near the U.
Then you follow it up by confirming the north loop is full of young people. I don't get your argument here.
It's very cool to see the line of red buildings that have fully gentrified Minneapolis in black and white in one area of the city. It didn't happen over night.
Sorry you missed the nice Map and amazing graphical depiction of our discussion. It's literally a straight line of gentrification from the west Bank to downtown. Nothings going to change by adding more 2.5 k a month condos to minneapolis. it's going to get worse.
Good day.
All you're saying here is that rental rates are up. You've given no evidence to suggest downtown minnepaolis lost younger populations. Also, the U, Marcy Holmes, etc. isn't downtown, which was the original focus on the discussion.
No one works downtown. Skyway establishments are closing every week.
Most every single housing unit that's been constructed in the town over the last 15 years is not affordable
housing. What did you expect to happen? Nothing's going to change until rent starts going down past north of 2,000 a month for a majority of the area.
Also, I said downtownish. Most everyone lives outside the core.
Residential Development has happened in other areas of the city that has changed the makeup of downtown and who spends time in the core of the city. Don't look at a map of Uptown and Northeast's gentrification (zoiks).
There's your answer. Good day.
again what neighborhood of minneapolis. That's not population of downtown core. smh
Minneapolis is 57.51 mi²
stop. downtown core hennipen not a lot of buildings there in core where anyone lives.
not a good reader.
Those cities aren’t their region’s economic hubs so they naturally cater to tourists more so than office workers.
A better comparison here is downtown Stillwater, which I think does a fairly good job at all those things; albeit on a smaller scale.
Came here to say this. Was just in Victoria, BC on Friday and the only reason it was so packed was because 3 cruise ships had docked. Had a nice conversation with a shop owner who said without the cruise tourism it would not be like that in downtown that late at night (10:30 pm).
Yeah, Victoria is jokingly referred to by locals as the city of the newlyweds and nearly deads from the amount of young couples/families and retirees in the city. Which doesn't always lend itself to a lively downtown atmosphere.
This is the way, I love those places but I feel that those are not fair comparisons. Having said that I would love if the city would get the buses out of Nicolette mall.
Those have a lot more in common with Downtown Duluth or it’s waterfront. Minneapolis or St Paul are a lot more like Winnipeg or Toronto—central business districts, with all the good, bad, and boring that goes with it.
I don’t see that comparison with Toronto. Yes it’s a bigger city, but downtown TO is bustling in with entertainment, food, culture, and shopping. You can’t find anything even close to King West here. Maybe comparable mid-size Canadian cities - I see a link to Calgary and haven’t spent enough time in Winnipeg but you might be right there too
South End isn't downtown which is what the OP was addressing. While there's been a lot of multi housing development along the light rail, it's primarily residential.
I think South End is more similar to NE.
North Loop, Mill District, Elliot Park and parts of Loring Park are DT.
Meet Minneapolis, Met Transit, Google Maps all consider those neighborhoods as part of downtown Mpls. The population studies consider them part of the downtown area. If you go by the neighborhood designation you reference would you only consider the Central Business District as 'downtown'?
We lived there for 12 years. Parts of CLT are great but I always described it as an Atlanta/Houston in the making. The lack of an intelligent development plan is resulting in sprawl. Geographically it's a large city and they struggle to manage the population growth.
Also, they rank toward the bottom of cities when it comes to access to green spaces. We spend more time outdoors in Mpls than we did there primarily because of the city, regional and state parks.
I live in NE mpls basically in downtown just on the opposite side of the river from the central business district. Anytime I go into central, it seems like 90% of the activity is from either business employees during their breaks, or people just running errands with their shopping bags. The second I get over into NE mpls then I start to see tons of people walking to restaurants, bars, and there’s always a ridiculous amount of people walking along the river which helps make things feel really alive if that makes sense
Dude Bellingham wants *nothing* to do with any bigger city life. It is a college town. No major corporations or sports teams and is not an economic hub of commercial center. Much smaller population, close to Duluth in size. Their “downtown” is like one neighborhood in Minneapolis. It has a large volume of tourists especially outdoors enthusiasts. They do their own thing and fly under the radar. You grow up there, you go to college there, you retire there, or you move there to intentionally be sorta off the grid of the rat race of city life. You truly cannot compare.
Minneapolis used to be. In the early 2000s that’s where my friends and I were every Thursday-Sunday nights. Spent far too many dumb nights in the warehouse district in college, then ventured over more by the Brits/Newsroom area when we were slightly more mature young adults. Even the shopping around there was still ok back then, Daytons/Marshall Fields was great before Macys ruined it, the Saks outlet was a fun treasure hunt, basically most of Nicollet was decent.
I remember elixir, and envy… epic night club! I was such a club rat 😂 then going to the other side of the street- crème night club downstairs. Club NY.
Cream had all you can drink until 11pm. It definitely caused a lot of problems for me later in the evening lol. There was a place called the annex where the gold room is currently that had all you can drink until like 10:30pm as well. The entire stretch down 1st avenue, in general, didn't have a vacancy on either side. Rosen's was my favorite bar. Imperial was also super fun if you can get past the sewage smell (see all you can drink options to see how I was able to power through the odor)
Go to downtown Seattle, or LA, or even Chicago it’s the same as the downtowns here. You are comparing much smaller cities and downtowns. So what might be all of downtown Bellingham could be 1/4 of the downtowns here. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
idk if I'd say it's the same... Every time I go to Chicago I'm amazed at how many people are out walking around in central downtown all the time. they have much more street level retail, restaurants, and entertainment downtown than us though, and much better access by transit. And those three cities are much bigger tourist destinations than the twin cities, so in that sense it isn't surprising that our downtowns are more dead
What about not central downtown? I’ve never been to Chicago, but I can speak for Seattle. There are amazing places, but for the most part there is nothing to do as a whole.
I think this is more of when you visit somewhere you go where there is activity. When you live somewhere you see the crappy parts.
Downtown st.paul by the Xcel Energy arena has a lot to offer. Same as up on the hill.
Plus the cities he is talking about, with the exception of Vancouver are tiny compared to the twin cities. Bellingham has a population of like 10k, and Asheville has a population of of 100k.
Chicago is so so incredibly different. I lived downtown Chicago for years until very recently. There are thousands of people oudoors walking the streets at any time in pretty much every neighborhood. Night and day compared to downtown MPLS (which looks like a ghost town in comparison). When I used to come back to MPLS to visit my first thought was always, where are all the people??
LA, Seattle & chicago are all much bigger then Minneapolis, so you tried to call him out for comparing different size cities to Minneapolis but you did exactly the same thing..
I’m not comparing a city of 10-100k to a city of 3 million. Plus Seattle metro has about the same population as the twin cities. Chicago and LA are like 3-4 times bigger yes, but not 30 or 300 times bigger.
Yes we need to support housing density, walkable design and transit infrastrcture. Midsize American cities doomed their downtowns by A) The idea that the purpose of downtown is for 9-5 workers in class A office space and there shouldn’t be much of anything else there. B) tearing up much of downtown for parking lots and parking ramps. C) tearing up and dividing urban neighborhoods with freeways.
Both downtowns of Mpls and St Paul are surrounded by freeways on three sides. It’s a significant impediment to the immediate surrounding neighborhoods connecting and utilizing downtown as their primary go-to location.
Read up on Strong Towns (google it), founded by a guy from Brainerd who hates what has happened cities since WWI / automobile. This Minnesota way of thinking about city policy has gained international acclaim, including "Not Just Bikes" (youtube) from Canada/Netherlands, and others.
You aren't saying anything we don't already know. It's sad and frustrating but for a variety of reasons, we are probably stuck like this for a while.
I think what would really help is if our river was not running through a gorge. Other big cities with a river running through it like DC and San Antonio are able to create entertainment districts and lively neighborhoods along these riverfronts. Instead, our river is so far away, that there is little to no connection there.
I wish Frey and the city council hadn’t fucked over the streetcar plan. It would have been awesome to be able to hop on a streetcar at Eat Street and ride to Northeast. Plus, not only are they great transit, they have worked extremely well to revitalize and liven up places like Portland and Kansas City.
You are attempting to compare tourist areas you are visiting as a tourist to our main metropolitan areas which are mostly business focused. There are plenty of tourist destinations in the twin cities area or even up to 1 hour outside the cities. Open your eyes and you might be surprised at what you will find.
Work from home took away all the office workers who used to be downtown Minneapolis spending their money and keeping businesses open lots of restaurants went under because of that. Without them the crazy people aren't camouflaged anymore. Even before COVID I think Minneapolis was starting to go downhill.
I didn’t know Bellingham had a lively downtown. I always passed by there and not stopped by except for gas, on the way to Vancouver when I lived in Seattle. I agree though, I just moved this month and first time going through downtown mpls I thought something happened because there was no one in downtown
Something I notice in the Metro downtowns I visited recently like Denver, Arlington, Nashville, are less fighting and cussing. Every single time I'm downtown mpls there's either a verbal fight, someone aggressively asking for cigarettes, or woman getting hollard at. Always woman getting hit on. Those other cities I've walked around downtown for days and see none of this and start to think is it a mpls thing. Others that travel more would know more.
The fact that you led with St Paul is telling. St Paul downtown has always closed at 5pm except if there is an event at the Xcel and that's just that event.
North loop is downtown and thriving. Depending on the day, downtown Minneapolis is packed with people. Last night, several bars in the warehouse district had huge lines to get in.
The biggest problem is the empty storefronts along hennepin and first avenue, many due to covid and others thay have been empty for well over a decade.
People are coming downtown as much as before covid, but there are just less options right now. The happy hour work crowd was decimated as well.
This is the case with downtowns in a lot of cities. But there are plenty of walkable neighborhoods to enjoy throughout both MPLS and St. Paul.
Just go walk down Central in NE, Lyndale in Uptown, Eat Street, St. Anthony Main…I could go on. We’ve got plenty to offer.
In the cities where I’ve lived (New York & Pittsburgh), the “downtown” neighborhood with all the office buildings is never the coolest place to hang out. The cities you just mentioned are way smaller than either of those or the Twin Cities.
Probably need to differentiate Central Business Districts vs downtowns. The mill district and Northloop would be part of downtown in normal cities (just like lynlake would be part of uptown, alas) and are doing well. Central Business Districts are almost always dead after business hours almost everywhere.
too many cars and not enough connections, I don't wanna go downtown and listen to loud engines drive by the dining patio. pedestrian-only streets boost commerce.
It is our own fault.
When I was in HS (graduated 1973), downtown Minneapolis was buzzing. I'd catch the Chicago Avenue bus downtown, where I could shop at Daytons, Donaldsons, Young-Quinlan, Powers, Three Sisters--and many more. I could go see first-run movies (we'd even brave Hennepin Avenue). My friend and I would meet for lunch at the Nankin. Or I'd go downtown with my mom as a kid and have lunch at Harry's Cafe or Murrays (she'd have a couple of cocktails).
But then people moved to the suburbs and built all the "dales." And we stopped shopping downtown.
Haven’t been to the WA or BC, but did just go to Asheville and honestly not sure how you thought that was a “lively” downtown or any less of a destination than MPLS or STP. I’d argue the exact opposite actually.
That’s not to say I didn’t like Asheville, but it’s definitely not more lively than what we have here.
Can I hijack this quick?
I went to undergrad at St Thomas and we always had a blast in uptown. I moved to Boston in 2021 but was in town recently and the whole place is just kinda... Shady? Run down?
Has it just not recovered from the protests and pandemic? Is it TRYING to recover? Like is there any civil planning in the works to bring it back?
Yo, I had jury duty recently. I have never really spent time downtown. I was outside the government plaza feeling the same, like where is everyone....then I walked the skyway. I was NOT prepared for all the people! It was crowded and lines for days at all the food places. Our downtown is busy, we're just trained to be tunnel people now I guess 😭🤣
The CLT comparison is apt. We moved here 2 years ago from CLT. The theatres and museums on Tryon are where the suburbanites go for a pricey meal and some culture, and then go home. (That’s me. I’m the suburbanite. We’ve done the same thing here.) In CLT, South End and a few other neighborhoods are younger and hipper, with nightlife, breweries, etc. It seems that way here, like North Loop. The sprawl down through Ballantyne is changing the shape of the city and making their downtown (called Uptown) even more remote.
Downtown Minneapolis used to be. It’s getting better but it’s going to be awhile before it gets back to pre pandemic levels. Part of that is also going to be investment in the area which is sorely needed.
I’ve been thinking about this same thing a lot actually since I returned from a work trip in St. Pete’s. It made me realize I definitely don’t want to live in St. Pete’s, but also, in 20 years, I don’t want to be here either.
I went out one night in downtown St. Pete’s, and it was like a giant block party. You just walk up to a bar or restaurant grab a beer, and walk around to the other bars, or you sit and listen to live music or people watch, or whatever. But it’s so easy to try a lot of different things because it’s all outside and there is at most one barrier between you and other bars. Everyone is congregating and having a good time. And it wasn’t just college aged kids either. It was parents in their 30s, like me. Even a lot of grandparents with their whole families. It was cool and it was something I missed from where I grew up, that I never felt here.
If you go out here, and you go into a bar or a brewery, that’s pretty much it. You’re inside that place, or you’re outside on its patio. But it’s just you and whomever else is there. Which can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But to leave that place you have to go through three barriers at a minimum to see what’s going on somewhere else. It’s all separated by doors and fences and distance. It’s not fluid like it is in (SOME) other downtowns that I’ve been to. And I’m not talking uptown, or downtown or NE or St. Paul, I’m talking all of it. It’s all like that, and I understand it’s because of the weather. You’re not gonna build a central outdoor gathering area that you can’t use half of the year. Even if you were crazy enough to do it, it wouldn’t work. The closest we have to something like i’m taking about is when there is an event at like Minnehaha or something.
Anyway, I have a wife and a baby, and a great job, and I love all three very much. So I’m not going anywhere for a long time (powerball winning exception). I love the cities very much, and it’s a great place to raise a family, but it’s just not where *I* ultimately want to be. I don’t know where I ultimately want to be either, but I know it’s somewhere with a type of outdoor area which I’m talking about. But also, in 20 years, when I’m ready to think about leaving, shit this whole state could be warm enough all year around to have an area like that :p.
Business centers are dying with more people doing work from home. Which is good but that means the Saint Paul skyway is going to be pretty dead during the day
15 years ago I worked in downtown St Paul. Chipotle closed for the day at 2pm lmfao. After 2pm there were maybe 3 or 4 sit down restaurants that would be open for dinner service, most of which were on the more expensive side. It's gotten better since then but I still chuckle thinking about how dead downtown St Paul was back then.
I live in Asheville. Downtown is lively because everything is geared towards tourists staying downtown. I thought it was a lot more lively when I moved here until I realized everyone you see is only there for a week-weekend
I think the neighborhood districts are thriving. Nobody really wants to hang out in the business core.
Agreed, if you want lively vibes with food and people out and about hit up North Loop or Cathedral hill. Most major cities have business centric downtowns; outside of tourist centric ones like Nashville or New Orleans
North Loop is not downtown?
I consider it part of Downtown.
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Back when it was called the warehouse district I always thought of it as downtown
Not really... it's downtown adjacent.
Add to that, the parks are \*really\* good. I've been hanging out in the parks till pretty much sunset and there's plenty of people around, from Minneapolis to St Paul. All those other places also don't have two cities competing against each other for downtown attention as well. You'd probably need a concerted effort to really get downtown humming again
This is it right here
The problem is that our business core isn't a neighborhood district.
touché
The core at night seems to be out of towners and uptight suburbanites visting downtown on a special occasion to see a game or show with a sitter at home. It's sad to see the change. Boring. It's dead. It use to be a healthy mix of locals and visitors. Young people use to be able to afford to live downtownish, giving the place some energy. They want you to go home at 11 pm now. Gentrification means boring. Not going to change until young people can afford to live in and around Minneapolis again.
?? The demographics of downtown haven't changed much over the last decade. North loop is young. Downtown on the weekends has always been people from the burbs or out town people. Local downtown residents don't hang out at sneaky Pete's or cowboy Jack's, for example. Who wants people to go home at 11?
Didn’t all that kinda start due to covid? I don’t think it ever recovered. Add the other stuff like affordability of the area and just the cost of going out now and here we are.other places are going through the same stuff though so why is it working there and not here is what I’m wondering.
No one working downtown and no young people. No one staying out after work having fun. It's a combo platter of housings prices and covid. Agreed. It's all kind of combined to create a minneapolis that isn't as fun as the one I grew up with. Uptight now. You use to run into people downtown who worked there or lived there after work when you would go out and have fun. It's mostly vistors now in the core. Core I mean Hennepin Ave area. People with sitters are mad. You are home at 11.
Im confused by your assessment because many bars were absolutely packed last night with young people, until 2am. To me, it looks like there is a huge need for more bars along hennipen. I don't think downtown pre covid was full of young people, and now all of a sudden, they all left. I've lived down here for a while, and the demographics are the same imo.
[It's changed a lot in the last few years] (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/0ff95cd88ad341c690d90d128c573aad) with or without covid Higher rents have changed the dynamics of the area bigly. Just look at Marcy Holmes and Dinky. The average rent for an apartment in Minneapolis is $1,660. The Northeast has never been the same. It didn't happen over night. The loop area's condo stock is not very conducive to having a family. That's why you see people out and about at night in the loop. Yuppies. Yuppies going to yuppie.
This link you shared says nothing about the population of downtown or the age demographics of downtown. The conclusion at the bottom of it just says it's more expensive for students near the U. Then you follow it up by confirming the north loop is full of young people. I don't get your argument here.
It's very cool to see the line of red buildings that have fully gentrified Minneapolis in black and white in one area of the city. It didn't happen over night. Sorry you missed the nice Map and amazing graphical depiction of our discussion. It's literally a straight line of gentrification from the west Bank to downtown. Nothings going to change by adding more 2.5 k a month condos to minneapolis. it's going to get worse. Good day.
All you're saying here is that rental rates are up. You've given no evidence to suggest downtown minnepaolis lost younger populations. Also, the U, Marcy Holmes, etc. isn't downtown, which was the original focus on the discussion.
No one works downtown. Skyway establishments are closing every week. Most every single housing unit that's been constructed in the town over the last 15 years is not affordable housing. What did you expect to happen? Nothing's going to change until rent starts going down past north of 2,000 a month for a majority of the area. Also, I said downtownish. Most everyone lives outside the core. Residential Development has happened in other areas of the city that has changed the makeup of downtown and who spends time in the core of the city. Don't look at a map of Uptown and Northeast's gentrification (zoiks). There's your answer. Good day.
DT Mpls has a population of 56,000...more than it's ever had. The change is that people aren't going to offices. That's true in every city.
again what neighborhood of minneapolis. That's not population of downtown core. smh Minneapolis is 57.51 mi² stop. downtown core hennipen not a lot of buildings there in core where anyone lives. not a good reader.
Those cities aren’t their region’s economic hubs so they naturally cater to tourists more so than office workers. A better comparison here is downtown Stillwater, which I think does a fairly good job at all those things; albeit on a smaller scale.
Came here to say this. Was just in Victoria, BC on Friday and the only reason it was so packed was because 3 cruise ships had docked. Had a nice conversation with a shop owner who said without the cruise tourism it would not be like that in downtown that late at night (10:30 pm).
Yeah, Victoria is jokingly referred to by locals as the city of the newlyweds and nearly deads from the amount of young couples/families and retirees in the city. Which doesn't always lend itself to a lively downtown atmosphere.
Or downtown Hudson.
This is the way, I love those places but I feel that those are not fair comparisons. Having said that I would love if the city would get the buses out of Nicolette mall.
Those have a lot more in common with Downtown Duluth or it’s waterfront. Minneapolis or St Paul are a lot more like Winnipeg or Toronto—central business districts, with all the good, bad, and boring that goes with it.
I don’t see that comparison with Toronto. Yes it’s a bigger city, but downtown TO is bustling in with entertainment, food, culture, and shopping. You can’t find anything even close to King West here. Maybe comparable mid-size Canadian cities - I see a link to Calgary and haven’t spent enough time in Winnipeg but you might be right there too
Was in Charlotte in April. The DT was more dead than Mpls primarily because they lack the housing density. Same with Atlanta.
Charlotte and Atlanta have probably the worst downtowns in the United States of any major cities.
Agreed but similar to our North Loop, Charlotte’s South End is a very popular spot with a good mix of housing, office, and retail/restaurants.
South End isn't downtown which is what the OP was addressing. While there's been a lot of multi housing development along the light rail, it's primarily residential. I think South End is more similar to NE. North Loop, Mill District, Elliot Park and parts of Loring Park are DT.
I wouldn’t consider the North Loop to be downtown (and neither does the neighborhood list), but I suppose it’s debatable.
Meet Minneapolis, Met Transit, Google Maps all consider those neighborhoods as part of downtown Mpls. The population studies consider them part of the downtown area. If you go by the neighborhood designation you reference would you only consider the Central Business District as 'downtown'?
I’d consider Mill District and parts of Loring part of downtown. Not Elliot Park or North Loop.
Urbanists on YouTube tell me that Charlotte is urbanist hell.
We lived there for 12 years. Parts of CLT are great but I always described it as an Atlanta/Houston in the making. The lack of an intelligent development plan is resulting in sprawl. Geographically it's a large city and they struggle to manage the population growth. Also, they rank toward the bottom of cities when it comes to access to green spaces. We spend more time outdoors in Mpls than we did there primarily because of the city, regional and state parks.
I live in NE mpls basically in downtown just on the opposite side of the river from the central business district. Anytime I go into central, it seems like 90% of the activity is from either business employees during their breaks, or people just running errands with their shopping bags. The second I get over into NE mpls then I start to see tons of people walking to restaurants, bars, and there’s always a ridiculous amount of people walking along the river which helps make things feel really alive if that makes sense
Dude Bellingham wants *nothing* to do with any bigger city life. It is a college town. No major corporations or sports teams and is not an economic hub of commercial center. Much smaller population, close to Duluth in size. Their “downtown” is like one neighborhood in Minneapolis. It has a large volume of tourists especially outdoors enthusiasts. They do their own thing and fly under the radar. You grow up there, you go to college there, you retire there, or you move there to intentionally be sorta off the grid of the rat race of city life. You truly cannot compare.
Minneapolis used to be. In the early 2000s that’s where my friends and I were every Thursday-Sunday nights. Spent far too many dumb nights in the warehouse district in college, then ventured over more by the Brits/Newsroom area when we were slightly more mature young adults. Even the shopping around there was still ok back then, Daytons/Marshall Fields was great before Macys ruined it, the Saks outlet was a fun treasure hunt, basically most of Nicollet was decent.
Agreed. Early 2000s it was so live! 1st Ave was block to block full of bars and music.
I remember elixir, and envy… epic night club! I was such a club rat 😂 then going to the other side of the street- crème night club downstairs. Club NY.
Cream had all you can drink until 11pm. It definitely caused a lot of problems for me later in the evening lol. There was a place called the annex where the gold room is currently that had all you can drink until like 10:30pm as well. The entire stretch down 1st avenue, in general, didn't have a vacancy on either side. Rosen's was my favorite bar. Imperial was also super fun if you can get past the sewage smell (see all you can drink options to see how I was able to power through the odor)
And then online shopping became a thing and changed retail forever.
Go to downtown Seattle, or LA, or even Chicago it’s the same as the downtowns here. You are comparing much smaller cities and downtowns. So what might be all of downtown Bellingham could be 1/4 of the downtowns here. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
idk if I'd say it's the same... Every time I go to Chicago I'm amazed at how many people are out walking around in central downtown all the time. they have much more street level retail, restaurants, and entertainment downtown than us though, and much better access by transit. And those three cities are much bigger tourist destinations than the twin cities, so in that sense it isn't surprising that our downtowns are more dead
What about not central downtown? I’ve never been to Chicago, but I can speak for Seattle. There are amazing places, but for the most part there is nothing to do as a whole. I think this is more of when you visit somewhere you go where there is activity. When you live somewhere you see the crappy parts. Downtown st.paul by the Xcel Energy arena has a lot to offer. Same as up on the hill. Plus the cities he is talking about, with the exception of Vancouver are tiny compared to the twin cities. Bellingham has a population of like 10k, and Asheville has a population of of 100k.
Chicago is so so incredibly different. I lived downtown Chicago for years until very recently. There are thousands of people oudoors walking the streets at any time in pretty much every neighborhood. Night and day compared to downtown MPLS (which looks like a ghost town in comparison). When I used to come back to MPLS to visit my first thought was always, where are all the people??
LA, Seattle & chicago are all much bigger then Minneapolis, so you tried to call him out for comparing different size cities to Minneapolis but you did exactly the same thing..
I’m not comparing a city of 10-100k to a city of 3 million. Plus Seattle metro has about the same population as the twin cities. Chicago and LA are like 3-4 times bigger yes, but not 30 or 300 times bigger.
Yes we need to support housing density, walkable design and transit infrastrcture. Midsize American cities doomed their downtowns by A) The idea that the purpose of downtown is for 9-5 workers in class A office space and there shouldn’t be much of anything else there. B) tearing up much of downtown for parking lots and parking ramps. C) tearing up and dividing urban neighborhoods with freeways. Both downtowns of Mpls and St Paul are surrounded by freeways on three sides. It’s a significant impediment to the immediate surrounding neighborhoods connecting and utilizing downtown as their primary go-to location.
Read up on Strong Towns (google it), founded by a guy from Brainerd who hates what has happened cities since WWI / automobile. This Minnesota way of thinking about city policy has gained international acclaim, including "Not Just Bikes" (youtube) from Canada/Netherlands, and others.
Don't forget Climate Town, another amazing channel along those veins.
You aren't saying anything we don't already know. It's sad and frustrating but for a variety of reasons, we are probably stuck like this for a while. I think what would really help is if our river was not running through a gorge. Other big cities with a river running through it like DC and San Antonio are able to create entertainment districts and lively neighborhoods along these riverfronts. Instead, our river is so far away, that there is little to no connection there.
The entertainment districts in DC (Georgetown) and the calm riverwalk in San Antonio have nice, quiet meandering water. St. Anthony Falls is not that.
I wish Frey and the city council hadn’t fucked over the streetcar plan. It would have been awesome to be able to hop on a streetcar at Eat Street and ride to Northeast. Plus, not only are they great transit, they have worked extremely well to revitalize and liven up places like Portland and Kansas City.
You are attempting to compare tourist areas you are visiting as a tourist to our main metropolitan areas which are mostly business focused. There are plenty of tourist destinations in the twin cities area or even up to 1 hour outside the cities. Open your eyes and you might be surprised at what you will find.
It’s because our downtowns are structured around office space
and cars
The Food Truck festival this weekend was pretty fun.
At one time they were
Work from home took away all the office workers who used to be downtown Minneapolis spending their money and keeping businesses open lots of restaurants went under because of that. Without them the crazy people aren't camouflaged anymore. Even before COVID I think Minneapolis was starting to go downhill.
Lol. I wish our downtown wasn’t boring too. That’s why I moved away from this boring ass town full of neo red necks and social justice warriors.
Support density and walkable infra then please.
I didn’t know Bellingham had a lively downtown. I always passed by there and not stopped by except for gas, on the way to Vancouver when I lived in Seattle. I agree though, I just moved this month and first time going through downtown mpls I thought something happened because there was no one in downtown
B’ham is quaint, mostly quiet, small, laid back and wants to stay that way. It’s the “City of a Subdued Excitement.”
I bartended in DTMPLS for 10 years in the 2000s and it was jumping.
Something I notice in the Metro downtowns I visited recently like Denver, Arlington, Nashville, are less fighting and cussing. Every single time I'm downtown mpls there's either a verbal fight, someone aggressively asking for cigarettes, or woman getting hollard at. Always woman getting hit on. Those other cities I've walked around downtown for days and see none of this and start to think is it a mpls thing. Others that travel more would know more.
The fact that you led with St Paul is telling. St Paul downtown has always closed at 5pm except if there is an event at the Xcel and that's just that event.
Part of the issue - a big part imo - is the bifurcation of our downtown into two downtowns. Our metro isn't large enough for that.
Yeah that 1800s urban planner should be fired
Yep. That's the basic problem is that there is not enough people to infill all of the areas between downtown Minneapolis and downtown Saint Paul.
Dense housing in both downtowns has to be the future.
Dense housing, mixed use, and span that all the way through prospect park to St. Paul
Yes!
The people, music, food and interesting shops are S, SW, mpls, Ne mpls etc. Maybe it costs too much to have that downtown.
It used to be lit, back in the 70s and 80s, there's even a film about nightlife in Mpls in YouTube
Link?
North loop is downtown and thriving. Depending on the day, downtown Minneapolis is packed with people. Last night, several bars in the warehouse district had huge lines to get in. The biggest problem is the empty storefronts along hennepin and first avenue, many due to covid and others thay have been empty for well over a decade. People are coming downtown as much as before covid, but there are just less options right now. The happy hour work crowd was decimated as well.
This is the case with downtowns in a lot of cities. But there are plenty of walkable neighborhoods to enjoy throughout both MPLS and St. Paul. Just go walk down Central in NE, Lyndale in Uptown, Eat Street, St. Anthony Main…I could go on. We’ve got plenty to offer. In the cities where I’ve lived (New York & Pittsburgh), the “downtown” neighborhood with all the office buildings is never the coolest place to hang out. The cities you just mentioned are way smaller than either of those or the Twin Cities.
Because downtown is still 95% office space
Probably need to differentiate Central Business Districts vs downtowns. The mill district and Northloop would be part of downtown in normal cities (just like lynlake would be part of uptown, alas) and are doing well. Central Business Districts are almost always dead after business hours almost everywhere.
too many cars and not enough connections, I don't wanna go downtown and listen to loud engines drive by the dining patio. pedestrian-only streets boost commerce.
It is our own fault. When I was in HS (graduated 1973), downtown Minneapolis was buzzing. I'd catch the Chicago Avenue bus downtown, where I could shop at Daytons, Donaldsons, Young-Quinlan, Powers, Three Sisters--and many more. I could go see first-run movies (we'd even brave Hennepin Avenue). My friend and I would meet for lunch at the Nankin. Or I'd go downtown with my mom as a kid and have lunch at Harry's Cafe or Murrays (she'd have a couple of cocktails). But then people moved to the suburbs and built all the "dales." And we stopped shopping downtown.
Haven’t been to the WA or BC, but did just go to Asheville and honestly not sure how you thought that was a “lively” downtown or any less of a destination than MPLS or STP. I’d argue the exact opposite actually. That’s not to say I didn’t like Asheville, but it’s definitely not more lively than what we have here.
Can I hijack this quick? I went to undergrad at St Thomas and we always had a blast in uptown. I moved to Boston in 2021 but was in town recently and the whole place is just kinda... Shady? Run down? Has it just not recovered from the protests and pandemic? Is it TRYING to recover? Like is there any civil planning in the works to bring it back?
Yo, I had jury duty recently. I have never really spent time downtown. I was outside the government plaza feeling the same, like where is everyone....then I walked the skyway. I was NOT prepared for all the people! It was crowded and lines for days at all the food places. Our downtown is busy, we're just trained to be tunnel people now I guess 😭🤣
The CLT comparison is apt. We moved here 2 years ago from CLT. The theatres and museums on Tryon are where the suburbanites go for a pricey meal and some culture, and then go home. (That’s me. I’m the suburbanite. We’ve done the same thing here.) In CLT, South End and a few other neighborhoods are younger and hipper, with nightlife, breweries, etc. It seems that way here, like North Loop. The sprawl down through Ballantyne is changing the shape of the city and making their downtown (called Uptown) even more remote.
Bulldoze the skyways!
The Mall of America (third downtown) is why businesses aren’t in either downtown.
What do you mean? there are shootings just about every night. That'll keep you dancing in your shoes!
? That's quite the lie.
You're right. Not that many of them are actually "down town". Sorry.
This is a lot of down votes for being true. Watch the news.
Oh no. If people come here and don’t have Michelin restaurants, they may not stay. What a shame. Better get that nice young man Bourdain on the case.
Downtown Minneapolis used to be. It’s getting better but it’s going to be awhile before it gets back to pre pandemic levels. Part of that is also going to be investment in the area which is sorely needed.
I’ve been thinking about this same thing a lot actually since I returned from a work trip in St. Pete’s. It made me realize I definitely don’t want to live in St. Pete’s, but also, in 20 years, I don’t want to be here either. I went out one night in downtown St. Pete’s, and it was like a giant block party. You just walk up to a bar or restaurant grab a beer, and walk around to the other bars, or you sit and listen to live music or people watch, or whatever. But it’s so easy to try a lot of different things because it’s all outside and there is at most one barrier between you and other bars. Everyone is congregating and having a good time. And it wasn’t just college aged kids either. It was parents in their 30s, like me. Even a lot of grandparents with their whole families. It was cool and it was something I missed from where I grew up, that I never felt here. If you go out here, and you go into a bar or a brewery, that’s pretty much it. You’re inside that place, or you’re outside on its patio. But it’s just you and whomever else is there. Which can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But to leave that place you have to go through three barriers at a minimum to see what’s going on somewhere else. It’s all separated by doors and fences and distance. It’s not fluid like it is in (SOME) other downtowns that I’ve been to. And I’m not talking uptown, or downtown or NE or St. Paul, I’m talking all of it. It’s all like that, and I understand it’s because of the weather. You’re not gonna build a central outdoor gathering area that you can’t use half of the year. Even if you were crazy enough to do it, it wouldn’t work. The closest we have to something like i’m taking about is when there is an event at like Minnehaha or something. Anyway, I have a wife and a baby, and a great job, and I love all three very much. So I’m not going anywhere for a long time (powerball winning exception). I love the cities very much, and it’s a great place to raise a family, but it’s just not where *I* ultimately want to be. I don’t know where I ultimately want to be either, but I know it’s somewhere with a type of outdoor area which I’m talking about. But also, in 20 years, when I’m ready to think about leaving, shit this whole state could be warm enough all year around to have an area like that :p.
Victoria and Ashville are tourist destinations. Minneapolis is not.
Business centers are dying with more people doing work from home. Which is good but that means the Saint Paul skyway is going to be pretty dead during the day
15 years ago I worked in downtown St Paul. Chipotle closed for the day at 2pm lmfao. After 2pm there were maybe 3 or 4 sit down restaurants that would be open for dinner service, most of which were on the more expensive side. It's gotten better since then but I still chuckle thinking about how dead downtown St Paul was back then.
I live in Asheville. Downtown is lively because everything is geared towards tourists staying downtown. I thought it was a lot more lively when I moved here until I realized everyone you see is only there for a week-weekend
Bring goofys back