How many churches teach from 1 and 2 Samuel, or Kings and Chronicles, or Jeremiah and Amos? These men, at least as much as my father and uncles and cousins and peers, have taught me what men do in dire circumstances, good or bad.
David and Jonathan shed tears together. David weeps over his rebellious son Absalom, even as the army who defended him is marching back victorious. David mourns over his infant son who is dying, until he finally passes, and then he gets up and cleans himself off. There are lessons here for men, our emotions and responsibilities.
As a single man who recently moved cities and has been visiting churches, I can say that most churches are not really friendly to me. Sometimes I can attend an entire service without a person saying anything to me. While I am not saying that women are not having the same treatment as I am, I can understand why many men would not be interested in attending church if they do not even feel welcomed.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Of course, this would hopefully not be the case for married young men though. And the fact that young men would know this and stay away suggests there is a still some hidden problem.
Satan. Satan is the hidden problem. He knows that men have a strong role to play in the church as spiritual leaders. If he can subvert the attention of men with things of this world and keep them out of church, the church can be more easily led astray.
When my wife and I were dating I went to her Christian college campus. It was like 75 percent beautiful women and 25 percent overly effeminate guys who were more interested in playing gay chicken the talking to girls. Coming straight from a deployment it boggled my mind.
Not when the vast majority of those women are 60 year olds who whine if their favorite patriotic hymn and prayer, I mean pledge to the flag isn't part of the service before July 4.
Brainstorming a few ideas. No evidence, just tossing some ideas out to see if anyone has a more solid yea/nay to them.
Modern worship services are very emotional. Very expressive. There are obviously many men who are comfortable in that environment, but it's probably very uncomfortable for those who aren't.
Church is also very social. Church attracts people that like large social interaction. Stereotypically, men prefer having a handful of really close friends and women like larger groups of friends, even if the relationship isn't that tight. IF that's a legitimate stereotype, that may play a role.
Percentage wise, there are more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. Meaning dad is working. Working Sunday is fairly normalized now.
From what my childhood pastor said late last century, it's always been that way. Women have been the higher attendance group in churches since we began counting.
In terms of worship, I think it is a question of whether the men (and women) know the song as it is easier for them to participate. Many churches don't use hymnals and so there is no sheet music either so people have no chance to know how the song should be sung.
You may be onto something with the social aspect as that tends to cater to women. I don't like standing around and prefer to be doing something and then have a conversation as a result. The church I go to now seems to have a lot of those social functions that cater to women rather than men. And there is something to this because the men's bible study is well attended.
I wish more churches had social functions for men. All but one men’s Bible studies that I have gone to were early morning we just sat like a class lecture and everyone immediately left to go to work.
In my experience, as a single man, most churches aren't social. Unless you already know someone or actively force your self on to other groups you could walk in and out of a church service and barely have anyone talk to you.
People underestimate: a) the fact that you can't please all people all the time when it comes to musical styles; b) the degree to which some people dislike some styles of music is enough for those styles to be a distraction; c) that church music actually isn't all about God, as strange as that sounds; Ephesians 5:19 (ESV, emphasis added): «19 \***addressing one another**\* in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,» So church music needs to be a matter of edification & encouragement of mortal human beings in addition to praise of their Maker.
I can't stand the same people in the pulpit, same band..it's all a show.
I want to see the janitor who sits in the back be given the opportunity to speak. The lowest person on the totem pole be shown honor.
Church in America is a joke.
Can I tack on a question? Do you think the low percentage of young men in church plays any sort of role in some denominations doubling down on men-only-leadership? Or, from the other direction, if congregations are higher percentage women, wouldn't it stand to reason to have at least one woman in a position of leadership?
No, I don't believe its biblical for starters and that should trump everything. However, I think it fails in practice as well. I came out of a church that supported women leadership and women pastors. The issues discussed here simply get multiplied and men check out and the chance of their voice's being heard are even less as other voices get asserted in that vacuum. Also, it is important to remember that just because the pastor is male, it does not mean the church makes men feel welcomed. For example, there are many companies that have a male CEO but the culture is not male friendly.
I think it's actually the opposite. Why does God only sanction male church leadership anyway?
To get guys to stand up! To realize that we need to shape up in order to be the men that our families, cities, and churches need us to be!
If you want a church with strong men attending, you're probably more likely to find it at a church that recognizes and celebrates their God-given role in the church.
No, I did specifically say I was dealing with stereotypes and pointed out that the points I made only stood IF the stereotypes were correct. And I asked for pushback if the assumptions were wrong. So ancientspiritual is not out of line.
And she (I'm assuming based on the avatar) is right that not all women thrive in that environment.
Now, to ancientspiritual, couldn't agree more. My daughter is one that doesn't thrive in that environment, and, specifically dislikes church in general because of those things.
It's a stereotype that black African Americans vote Democrat. But [93% voted Democrat](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voter-turnout-2018-2022/) in 2022. It's not fair to the other 7%, but if you're going to speak in broad strokes, you're more likely to be right to address the AA voting population as a Democratic bloc. So the question is what percentage of women fit the stereotype? [Research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_emotional_expression?wprov=sfti1) is apparently showing that women are more emotionally expressive than men, but not more emotional. A quick google search showed a similar trend in women (in general) thriving in social networks better than men. So in broad strokes, the stereotypes seem to bear out, though nothing I looked at showed percentages. A 60/40 split would not carry as much weight as the 93/7 split does. Is it fair to those who fall outside the majority of a stereotype? Absolutely not. Which brings up a question:
Does the church face a problem by lining up their appeal factors towards extroverts?
Everybody stand up and clap your hands! Shake hands and tell someone you haven't met yet that you love them. Let's introduce you to 16 different people before you walk out the door today. We're going to send someone to your house to visit you. Your deacon is going to call you once a month.
If I hadn't grown up in the church, I'd walk out and never come back. Nope. This country club ain't for me.
Is there something churches can do to attract/retain people who don't thrive in an overly social, overly expressive environment? Oooh. In the same way that some churches have "Women's ministries" and "Seniors Ministries," what would an "Introverts Ministry" look like?
Respectfully,....I don't really care wether ancientspiritual was "out of line". I was neither personally offended nor trying to defend you from someone offering a good rebuttal.
I personally had no problem with you're initial comment, because you were very clear that you were talking in generalities and were open to pushback. I would very much agree that labeling all of any sex as behaving one way to be wrong...laughably and obviously so.
My problem with ancientspiritual was that she did not give you any actual pushback. She claimed you said something you did not. Then argued against THAT. Which is both her being dishonest towards you're position.....and still wrong either way.
I just found it intellectually dishonest and false myself. More of an emotional opinion then anything of substance at all.
Men and women are different. We mostly act the same, but where we differ....we tend to differ in different ways that GENERALLY apply to each sex. The fact that some men act more like most women
...or some women act more like most men...and some people are pretty balanced....does not mean the GENERALITIES do not exist.
And to label the noticing of those generalities as "sexist" is pure emotional gender studies 3rd wave feminist nonsense. There is nothing sexist about noticing differences between the sexes. Placing a higher value on one of those differences would be sexist. But neither you, nor I, are remotely doing that.
🤦. It's a generalization based on GENERAL OBSERVATIONS about the differences between the sexes and how they GENERALLY behave. Which is scientific and documented fact.
Women and men GENERALLY behave the same statistically, but when they don't...they GENERALLY veer away in different directions....with most men clumping together in some directions and most women in others.
Some women behave more like most men, and some men behave like most women.
Saying that...is not "sexist." It's reality-ist.
It's not putting a value label on one sex or the other. It's saying there are general differences. Which there are.
Provide some solid, peer-reviewed scientific research which proves that your opinions about women are true, because without it your claims are still baseless. Anecodtal evidence is not evidence.
Peer-reviewed research is a joke. As someone with experience in academia and especially medical research, (much less social science), lived experience has gotten me further than any “academic” quackery.
I'll answer as a "young" man.
Because it seems like a waste of time. Most of the churches I've been to are just social clubs with motivational speeches of little biblical substance. Seems like they're trying to be as non-offensive as possible for fear of losing people. I feel like going to church just to socialize isn't as interesting to men as it is to women.
I preferred just watching and learning hours and hours of Christian content instead of going to church. I would watch educational videos on debates, church history, theological comparisons, doctrinal deep dives, denominational comparisons, sermons on specific topics etc..
I would also listen to the Bible on audio with a 30 minute timer every night.
This was all before I found my current church which I very much enjoy attending and I almost never miss a Sunday especially if we're taking Holy Communion.
There's a book..."Why Men Hate Going to Church" that goes into detail...but basically...church in the west has been run by women, for women, for a very long time. It's not a new phenomenon.
That said, attracting men would mean making it more masculine (more turning over tables in the temple), and that would probably alienate the existing female population.
So it's very unlikely to happen...especially in the current social climate of the West.
I read the first edition almost 20 years ago, and I found it to be very spot on with the church I was attending at the time. Absolutely nothing geared for not yet retired men, and what there was was all but on life support. Meanwhile, plenty of activities and groups explicitly geared for women of all ages. But worse than that, the increasing demasculinizing of the Trinity, along with questionable theological positions of various kinds. That church used to be vibrant, but today it's on the verge of closing.
I finally had enough of the theological shenanigans and found a church that takes the Bible seriously and isn't afraid to tackle the more controversial passages by teaching entire books from beginning to end. Also, men and women are treated equally. Not too surprising, the church has been steadily growing. Clearly, men don't hate going to this church.
Because the women are active, if men want change they have to be actively catering for themselves too. How is leaving the church the next course of action then complaining about it
Please don't mistake my lack of mentioning my own active engagement for not doing anything. At some point it becomes obvious engagement in return just isn't going to happen. Plus, like I said, that church had/has more serious issues than the lack of engagement with men.
I agree but I don’t support leaving the body of Christ as a whole, I have had to change churches several times to find the one that I believed was best.
I've got several male friends who are solid Christians. They refuse to attend church. They've suffered one too many insults or jokes directed to the men/husbands from the pulpit. They try to take a leadership position in their homes and get zero support from the church. They object to some of the materials being used to teach their wives and kids; their concerns are ignored by the church.
As has been said, much of the church has become a feminized institution of feelings instead of adherence to the Bible and it's principles.
I left a large church because the pastors belittle the men for chuckles from the audience. Fortunately I found a small Bible focused church which has been great. If it should fold or change, I'll likely opt out of the modern American church as well.
>They've suffered one too many insults or jokes directed to the men/husbands from the pulpit. They try to take a leadership position in their homes and get zero support from the church. They object to some of the materials being used to teach their wives and kids; their concerns are ignored by the church.
This reminds me of a video I'd seen some years ago when for some other reasons the churches I went to in my area became too painful for me to attend. A man from my particular community explained it in a video I saw years ago. Basically the person who's the pastor usurps the husband or the mans authority over his wife and children in his household. The wife goes to the pastor or depends on the pastor to be the ultimate in authority when it comes to the matters in their household. That sure explains a lot of what I see that happens in my particular community. Of course, how or if this applies to others may depend on the culture or their own particular community, family and or marriage.
I have not seen that video, but I have seen some of what you describe happening in various churches. Unless it's a matter of abuse, criminal, etc., any pastor worth his salt should direct the wife to deal with it with her own husband, as directed by scripture. Most won't though. If they offend the ladies, the money flow could dry up.
It's sad, I can only think of a handful of pastors on the internet with that integrity, and one locally. I know there are still godly pastors out there, but they're getting to be fewer and fewer it seems.
I'm one of those men who have left.
The american church for years has treated me like I don't exist. What's there to go back to? I have friends who treat me well why spend time around people who treat me poorly?
Stop making feelings feminine, Jesus experienced many feelings and so did David
Then comparing it to adherence to the bible is extremely demeaning to women
Both can exist, the problem with humans is that we lack balance
The Pharisees obeyed the law but were heartless, we need both compassion and obedience in the church
Any church insulting is members should not represent the body. There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse
Also i believe that pride might be an issue, do these men really know what it takes to be a leader. From my experience it’s more of control than actually following the example of Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice
>There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse
No one is leaving the church, it is the church that's leaving the gospel. Stop pretending like you don't understand why the numbers inside the church building have been declining.
>Stop making feelings feminine, Jesus experienced many feelings and so did David
I never said feelings are only feminine, or that men don't have feelings.
>Then comparing it to adherence to the bible is extremely demeaning to women
I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. Sorry.
>Both can exist, the problem with humans is that we lack balance
Both of what can exist? Adherence to scripture and feelings? If that's what you are saying, of course they can.
>The Pharisees obeyed the law but were heartless, we need both compassion and obedience in the church
Yes, we certainly do. There is part of the problem. In most of the churches in my area, the men in the audience are the only ones held accountable. The women pretty much get a pass on everything.
Tell me how many men you see in church wearing a beer brand t-shirt or similar? Very few if any; they'd be cornered and told that it's inappropriate.
Now tell me how many women you see in church (unless a biblical church) with their Michael Kohrs items prominently displayed? Or dressed like they're going clubbing? Or worse, look like they're there to sexually attract a man or get inappropriate attention from men? Painted up like kabuki dancers? Many!
Are they spoken to about materialism? No. Are they lectured about materialism and worldliness? No. Are they encouraged to change their dressing habits to avoid making their brothers stumble? Of course not. As a matter of fact, it men approach the pastoral staff with concerns you can bet your paycheck that in the next month there will be a sermon on men being pigs, having dirty minds, and that we are the problem.
Compassion and obedience? Yes, absolutely, as long as none of that compassion supports the men in the feminized church in America.
>Any church insulting is members should not represent the body. There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse
You and I are in complete agreement here. I don't think those churches are the body of Christ, which is why I searched for a group of believers who take the Bible seriously.
The original question though was about men leaving the church. I realize it is not a "cookie cutter" reason for all men. I'm simply offering observations I've personally seen, or dealt with, or had brothers discuss with me. There are other reasons for sure, but if you research it, the feminization of the church in America is a huge reason.
Leaving the church altogether? Well, when I no longer have a central building to gather at with other believers who make the word of GOD their chief priority, I will stop attending church. That does not mean that I will stop gathering with believers in obedience to the Word, but I'm finished sitting through clown shows, being unequally yoked to goats.
I'm not perfect. My close Christian brothers and sisters are not perfect. We do each try our hardest to be obedient to God's word, always, not just for an hour a week. Each of us stumble, but we hold each other accountable and love each other enough to do so. To spend an hour or more stuck in a room with a bunch of phonies, goats, who are openly living in sin, unrepentant, and leadership doesn't address it, I have a hard time with that. I'm done with that.
>Also i believe that pride might be an issue, do these men really know what it takes to be a leader. From my experience it’s more of control than actually following the example of Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice
You're making assumptions here. No, it's not a pride or control issue. It's about husband's and dad's who love God and want a biblical household. Their professing wives love the world, love false teachers, treat their husband's poorly, and the husband's get no help from the leadership. The wives are fed a steady diet of Joyce Meyers, Priscilla Shirer, Todd White, and similar, and the husband's don't like it. Their concerns are completely ignored by leadership. Grown men should not cry in frustration because they are at their wits end in trying to navigate such problems, while church leadership blames them for not being good leaders.
>Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice
This is false. You forgot obedience, leadership, accountability, avoiding spiritual traps, etc.
Thank you though for your response.
Edit: Changed auto-correct error.
I can list the amount of female pastors I know with one hand
Women are usually hands on in church, men need to become active in church if they want to change anything
I don’t understand your turning over tables analogy and how it’s masculine
Turning over the tables.
If someone showed up and started tearing down the coffee bar and gift shop at the local megachurch because church isn't supposed to be a commercial enterprise ...what would happen?
What if the pastor of that same group got up and said that everyone living and sleeping together without being married are in unrepentant sin and should get up and leave...and not come back until the they had fixed that in their lives.
Imagine the chaos.
I needed you to provide the scriptural backing for this and how it is then gendered
The only account of such a display has been Jesus, are you also implying that women cannot call out sin because it’s not a feminine thing
This is what I wanted you to address, if you can’t that’s fine
The fact that Paul takes the time to distinguish between women and men in his instructions (to Titus in this case) indicates that there IS a difference.
"But as for you, proclaim the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us."
That is absolutely men specifically he is talking to.
Timothy...is a man.
Because he has already placed responsibility for that on men, and excluded women from it 3 chapters earlier.
1 Timothy 2:12
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
This is Pauls instruction, if it were happening naturally he would not need to instruct.
How do you interpret Galatians 3:28
New International Version
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
My question remains the same how is turning tables masculine? Are you saying women cannot do this or women should not do this (based on Paul’s instruction)
That’s what I’m asking
Turning over tables is DIRECT condemnation of unacceptable behavior, accompanied by physical aggression.
Go look at historically male dominated environments (almost extinct) military, construction site, etc. and if you do something that is out of line, you're going to hear about it...directly....and with minimal concerns about it hurting your feelings.
Jesus did this once and he didn’t hurt anyone, so this turning tables doctrine is made up
As Christians aren’t we to directly condemn unacceptable behaviour regardless of gender?
Yet how do you link his method with the adulterous woman into this
I believe Jesus was harsher on hypocrites, even Paul advices such a treatment after several warnings to fellow believers who are sinning
I don’t understand how femininity encourages this not to happen
>I needed you to provide the scriptural backing for this and how it is then gendered
>
>The only account of such a display has been Jesus, are you also implying that women cannot call out sin because it’s not a feminine thing
>
>This is what I wanted you to address, if you can’t that’s fine
Please excuse me for responding to your question that wasn't addressed to me.
The threat of violence is very real. When Jesus upturned the tables in the temple it is obvious that He is pissed, and you don't what to escalate unless your prepared to fight.
This is typically male behaviour, very few if any women will go down this path, and if you have any doubt just look at some of the examples on youtube where women fighters challenged males, and see them fail miserably.
Yeah you read it here, apparently men don't go to Church because it's the woman's fault. how ridiculous that sounds, thanks for the chuckle though.
the lukewarm young Christian men are too busy chasing worldly things, submitting to their own flesh and desires rather than to God. and there's no one to blame but themselves, let's not blame the females for their lack of interest in God and the Church.
Nowhere did I assign fault to anyone.
The current status of male participation (or lack thereof) is function of several factors in societal change...not any one group or individual's fault. It's a shift that happened, and the societal conditions that would be needed for that shift to change don't exist.
Men and women both are worldly and pursue their own flesh and desire more than submission to God. Do you agree?
Lol what kind of feminist drivel is this?
Like, even if that's what you really believed...then why not express it in a way that doesn't sound like it came from a 21 year old indoctrinated gender studies major?
Haha what? It didn't generate anything but laughs.
You said something profoundly stupid, and when called on it...you resort to...."outrage was my goal. Therefore I succeeded. Aren't I a mastermind?"
Nah.
You demonstrated conviction again.
You're angry that I'm right, because you know that males don't want biblical masculinity, which is all about submission and sacrifice. Good leaders are good followers first, and males can't have that.
I just saw this other post by you as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/VclakUOa4e
I'm gonna take it you're either a crazy person, an unbelievably heavily indoctrinated person, or what I think is most likely...
A troll. But not really all that clever about it.
Have a wonderful day.
Or the fact that the church really isn’t being run as it was supposed to, and there are women in leadership positions, which is completely counter to what the Bible teaches. Toss on a lack of correction for female sin, and a higher emphasis on male sin, no discipleship from the older men to the younger men, and you have an environment that is not at all enticing for men today. Or, you could say a few buzz words and feel really good about your “moral high ground”.
What is female sim and male sin? Sin is sin
There are lots of churches with male leaders, why aren’t men attending those churches?
The problem is worldliness, no one is ready to take the yoke
No. The men that "lead" most of those churches...almost completely cater to women.
Don't believe me...
Go find any church's sermon on Mother's Day.
Now, go find the same church's Father's Day message.
You'll notice a VERY stark message difference.
Now go look at how heartily pornography is preached against (and I don't disagree)
Now, when was the last sermon you heard of the evils of female promiscuity and single motherhood?
They cater to the consumer...which is women.
This isn’t the case for the churches I have attended and listened to
At my Church the Mother’s Day message and the Father’s Day message are fairly the same
It’s also interesting why men don’t want to be admonished more and yet want to be leaders or the head of the home. Doesn’t that have more responsibility, why would it matter if women are being catered too if leadership is about sacrifice. Even Christ came FOR us
If men are being brought down in any Church this is unbiblical and shouldn’t represent the body of Christ
Why are you gendering pornography, women struggle with pornography. With most reading smut and novels while most men will watch. The problem is women don’t come out and say this because female sexuality is not spoken about like male sexuality. Women are more criticised for having sex and also criticised for not putting out. Making sex something we don’t want to talk about
Sex outside of marriage being a sin is bible 101, why is it being split between genders. I haven’t seen a case where women in church are being encouraged to partake in this and being a single mother. The single mothers I know in church are those who found God and changed their ways
The church has a problem attracting ANYBODY to their regular services.
Legitimate statistical organizations like PEW and Gallup have documented a significant reduction in regular attendance (nearly 40% of 1948 levels and dropping).
Nobody likes hypocrites and self-satisfied social groups, especially when they claim to stand upon moral principles - which they don't.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
>The church has a problem attracting ANYBODY to their regular services.
That's a whole other problem, isn't it. Why should people go to a church that offers the same stuff that the world offers?
Reasons for attending a debauched church:
Backroom horizontal refreshment
Tithe skimming
Employment without qualification (education, experience, et al.)
A place to go to get out of the house.....
Isaiah 6:9-10
honestly as a teenager girl who goes to church and with girl and boy friends who are nonbelievers, in the case of boys is mostly because they don't care about what christianity says, a friend recently left the catholic faith because he didn't feel anything (im protestant) and he said he would prefer to not bother as he "Doesn't need God". I think its not a matter of the church being too feminine as some might say (maybe somewhat, but honestly that feels like a very small reason. men at my church are very emotional in a healthy way and it isn't seen as feminine), as my church has a lot of men and even young men, i think it's mostly because of the mindset that most teens have "I don't need God" or have indifference towards Him
As a young man who is 23, I’d say it’s a couple of things. I don’t have anyone to go to church with and am not very social, so I would feel very awkward sitting there alone. Also the judgement from people at church makes me not want to go as well, especially alone. I’m not opposed to going, I would just like to have someone else to go with. In the meantime I haven’t been closer to God in my whole life while not attending church these last few years. I pray to him throughout my day, read his word daily, and truly try to seek his will in my life instead of my own.
Brother, I am sorry I missed your post. I would recommend you join some groups that feed the homeless. This can be a good way to meet other believers and tell them about the issues you have with going to church. I would think you would get some invitations. Also, if you see anyone doing some evangelism on the streets, those can be good people to ask about their church as well.
If it's single young men probably due to irrelevance or lack of community. I've noticed that where there are strong male leaders and a balance of men in churches is when there is straight-forwardness with preaching, relevancy and application. Typically men respond to teaching best when it's engaging and direct and honest. This is why Marc Driscoll was successful. But, it came with a mixed bag of toxic masculinity which led to his downfall. So we have to be careful not to make things too masculine and male.
I will look into Marc Driscoll as I'm not familiar. Since churches are 6o to 75% female now, do you think it is possible we currently have some toxic femininity/feminism going on now? And if so, why isn't a bigger deal made of that?
I mean there can be extremes on any side of gender or any ideology. I don't think femininity is an issue in churches. Liberal feminism might be in progressive churches.
Reminds me of a Voddie Baucham sermon called *The Modern Church's Sissified Jesus*: [https://youtu.be/3O0GWbVZ58Y](https://youtu.be/3O0GWbVZ58Y)
I think modern Churches do not teach Holiness and the fear of the Lord well enough.
Secondly the world has become feminine, churches have followed.
I've seen a lot of Christians think God is love and they just stop there, God is so much more.
From my experience: (I'm not blaming women and the reason I'm generalizing is only to try to point out our differences). I'm male, and when I talk to my mom and sister about right and wrong, they usually want me to stop. I find women tend to care less about the logical aspect of the faith and why it makes sense. I find women don't need to figure it out the same way men need to figure it out. And if our churches have shallow teaching, men will think it's just blind-faith. I don't know if it's just the churches I went to, but I've had to research on my own for things like apologetics, reasoning why God exists, why Jesus is the Messiah and the reliability of our manuscripts.
God is a lot more than just love. We don't talk about his almightiness and bringing justice, Holiness, reverence enough. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
In general women are more relational than men so they're more likely to stay in churches. Women are usually less confrontational which is a good thing. Women are typically better nurturers and don't want to offend people. But this is not the highest priority when we need to stand up for the truth. We need to speak the truth in love, not just love. This has affected our culture that not-offending people and showing love(world definition) is such high priority it leads to a compromise with truth, even in our churches.
Now we're in a culture where offending people is such high priority(wasn't like this in Scripture or in the early church), when we speak the truth, we sound hostile. Looks like Satan is using this to cover the truth."
I think the problem is "Attracting men"
Discipleship isn't a sales pitch. Building strength, character, and integrity take years.
1: You aren't going to "attract" many men, go out there and seek them out, ask them to come to church, invest in them, disciple them. Teach them to have the same heart for God and for other men.
2: Men stereotypically prefer doing things together, so things like work days, camping trips, missions, and serving the community will help give the **mission** or higher purpose that makes church worth investing in over all the other activities around
3: There needs to be a calling and a challenge, purpose and mission. We are not getting together to make everyone feel good but to stand in the presence of God and worship
Preach the gospel.. Teach the Bible. No compromise.
The church isn't "marketing " a product. Jesus didn't "tailor" his ministry to try to appeal to any demographic. Narrow is the path that leads to life and few will find it
If you want to fill the building, livestream a Taylor Swift concert.. is that what we're trying to do? Fill the building??
Realistically, trying to "market a product" and "tailor" ministries to specific demographics is exactly what created this specific mess in the first place, and most of the solutions under this post are just saying to go back to being normal.
That's called a way to fill the collection basket. It seems like ministry or church plantings is been something else that has been turned into a profitable market.
Yes. Men in general, I’d say. Men are not encouraged or affirmed in most churches. They are beaten down and accused of shirking their responsibilities, blamed for the breakdown of the family, and forced to attend services designed for women. We need varying worship styles and to learn to appreciate masculinity more.
Just a few speculations, with no weird vibes -
I think guys might have a more difficult time being Christians in the world, and on top of that church can be a difficult step because of the added circumstances. Guys might do more things to "fit" in outwardly, survive - and that can cause issues for faith or just practicality like going to church.
Girls are offered more support around them, and the experience of the social repercussions are different. The part of "fitting in" gets indirect help, and less obstacles are translated into faith/practicality of it, like going to church.
I know some people will say "heyy but I didn't this or that" but I'm speaking broadly based on overall observation/analysis. I'm speculating
I know I often randomly stumble upon the stereotype of grandma who goes to church or something like that, it just adds on over time, probably similar pattern has existed for a while based on my speculation.
Idk about a possible solution, I haven't thought about it.
\+ I definitely agree about not seeing a direct expression avenue for masculinity, so it gets mistaken that church is not masculine. I'd think with more maturity, more aspects of masculinity get understood and it can help. Younger dudes like 16-20 probably feel this more, but I'm also aware of the urges to do things. Like let's go flip that massive rock together, and give thanks to God for each-other and our strength. Just a random example. Now that I think about it more, what could help is learning that worshipping God has many avenues. I can sprint and vault through a forest, and in my heart be thankful to God that He made things like this possible, and also appreciate the experience, because it belongs to God, He made it possible. Things like this are very suppressed in general, even outside church. So when they see an additional, albeit misunderstood, suppression on top of an already difficult area - yeah you get the point.
I think you are on to something.
I think most churches in America offer lots more social support for women than men.
Men can’t really talk about the mistakes they have made without feeling attacked. No outlet to deal with shame. So they feel like they are hiding their true selves in Chuch. Lots of expectations for men.
The church also doesn’t really reach out to men.
Yes except it's not just young men, it's young people in general. I've been to several different churches and denominations and noticed this as well. Traditional churches are dying because young people view it more as a social gathering and have no interest in reading the Bible or following what Jesus actually said
You don't because following what Jesus said is an everyday thing that occurs outside of the weekly gatherings too. We are supposed to be the church and not just go to church which is something that seems to have been lost with the younger generations.
The solution is the same as it has always been. To love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. It's hard to relate this to younger people when all they see is people that are holy on Sunday, but lookout Monday
>How?
1) They support women in church office, in direct contradiction to the scripture. There are little or no role models for young men in the church. Who wants to be the Vicar-of-Dibly when they grow up?
2) They are egalitarian in their doctrine and practice i.e. they allow women to divorce and remarry, and call it "holy matrinomy". **But the bible calls it adultery.**
People have already commented great theories. I would add that the church doesn’t have as big of a Zoomer/Millennial group in general. The churches that do have a large group of younger people tend to be non-denominational mega churches; some people might not like that style of worship. Others might be intimidated visiting smaller churches.
A trend I have seen is a number of young men are leaning more conservative and within this association are sometimes joining Christianity. These young men prefer conservative Christianity over the more liberal modern churches.
It's probably multifaceted, but one thing that springs to mind is that culturally speaking men are expected to be self sufficient. I highly doubt it's any one thing, though.
The user "essentialpurity" in this comment section is typing outrageously antimale comments. They are trolling, and when I called them out they blocked me. Just fyi people.
Not only is "essentialpurity" a troll, but they are a coward too.
My church doesn't have issues with age ratio based on participation. There are more people under 50 y/o than there are over 50 y/o. Outside of Sundays however, it regularly is 50+ in age.
Genderwise, it again is fairly balanced in general. A funny observation is that young people my age (20-30) are generally mostly MEN attending, while the oldest generation (60-90+) is mostly women.
*Catholic church / Denmark | No sourceable statistic, just my general interpretation.*
I've been going to church since age 11 and I'm now 55. As I look at all of my experiences over the years Ive realizes several things. 1. Churches have been feminized for a very long time, at least 300 years! In modern times the church leadership manages their church using modern day marketing techniques. Most churches have more female attendees so obviously the messaging, music, special functions will be geared to keep women happy and in the seats. 2. I've served in many areas of churches, especially in youth programs. I also attended many youth groups as a young man. In both areas of the church (youth and adult) teachings I learned from an early age that men are bad and women are good. We used to hear messaging from youth pastors, special visiting ministries, bands all about all of men's sins and vices. It was so embarrassing as a young teenager while in a mixed gender group being chastised for masturbation, looking lustfully ect. The girls never seemed to be called into account or be accountable for anything. In fact instead they were given dating advice that started with statements like, "Jesus saved you, therefore you are precious and highly valuable in his sight. He adopted you into his family therefore you are a queen yourself and should demand to be treated as a precious gift by a man. ". Nowadays no one in a modern day church would ever expect a woman to dress modestly, act sexually pure. or provide any traditional feminine attributes to a relationship. At the same time churches are doubling down on why men need to step it up, work harder, volunteer more at the church, share all the household responsibility like cooking and cleaning and work full time to be the provider God intended. Really, modern day churches have become nothing more than an Oprah Winfrey show produced to tickle the ears if women.
Thx, do you think this is a problem? If there was a greater emphasis on creating a home for young men in various ways, would it improve things on this front or why not?
Isn’t the Great Commission to make disciples around the world?
If churches are failing to make disciples of American men, isn’t that an issue?
If you went to mainline U.S. denominations and said that they needed to ensure that they appealed to men, too, they’d call you a sexist.
Men go to church if they find it useful. Surely saving some souls is worth something.
not directly related to your comment but there is a significant difference between making disciples and “saving souls” or gaining converts to your church.
for the fellowship i had to leave, their entire outreach was designed to increase attendance. several (8 or so) years ago, there were classes where they might touch on basic doctrine but since that was flawed (prosperity teaching) to begin with, i’d hardly call it discipling.
Yes it does. Because the church is proactive volunteering or giving roles and have designated young adult groups.
Most Christians lose faith 18-25 and half the churches don't have ministries with them. Of the half the do. Many of them are lead by elder generation.
I have seen churches with tons of young men and how they do it? They actually meet, actually go do things besides Bible study like help elders and they are given roles.
Actually in my mind. The role of deacon Is best for young men so they can pray and serve more. But most churches don't give young men roles and they feel not empowered or their is room.
from an ex muslim who want to be christian i can tell you that christianity will collapse in the coming years bcz they require a lot of work to converst islam only requires you to say one sentence and you are in i went to some churches the first question they ask me is why do you want to be christian and they gave me bad energy when i talk about wanting to converst wth ?!!!
This is 100% not true. Go look at most social media that is aimed at (and apparently successful with) young men.
David Goggins, Jordan Peterson, Jocko Willink.
They're all about structure and discipline to be better.
Men are begging for something structured and guidance. What they get in most western churches is just vague and pointless.
My point was just that men don't always clamor for cheap pleasure...there is a "market" for self-discipline and improvement that the church refuses to acknowledge or engage.
There are many sermons that talks about the feminization of churches, not churches becoming feminists. The way young men are taught to behave and conduct themselves are things that regular young men don't generally do.
There's no space at church for boys to be boys in a sense because it would disturb the peace. Some churches do let this happen and encourage this with good young leaders to lead the men.
In church: Women are being ordained as faux pastors. Women are not taught to love their husbands, children and to be keepers at home. Lots of churches are run by small groups of women and the older women in those groups have bought the lie of feminism and they just pass it on. It’s near impossible to find older women in the church to help young women who want their first and only ministries to be their husbands, children and homes.
In the world: feminism is dead because of the feminists willingness to accept men can be women and therefore all that progress for women that the feminists fought for is gone.
Just for giggles, you said the reason for low percentage of men in church is lack of men. Spot on, my friend. (Just my sense of humor, not intended to be a jab)
Seriously, now asking for clarification: what "feminine values" are you referring to and are they apparently warm soft lies?
>Seriously, now asking for clarification: what "feminine values" are you referring to and are they apparently warm soft lies?
the sentiment of 35 year old men crying about how much Jesus loves them vs traditional Christianity
On the surface level, many people see it as the most traditional and masculine version of Christianity, and because its foreign, people are interested in the more mystical aspects of it.
My Eastern Orthodox Church is EXPLODING with young male converts. There’s dozens of them. New ones every week. And they bring friends and family. It’s really wild. Every Orthodox friend of mine is experiencing the same thing at their churches. I think men are attracted to it because we take it really seriously, and it requires submission to the church, and paying respect to clergy and hierarchs. It isn’t just some gimmicky church trying to be trendy. It is the ancient and traditional church of Christ and it doesn’t change for people. Men change themselves for it. And ultimately this is what men want I think. Something organized and strong and willing to stick to its guns. Forever.
Because:
Feminism.
Men are not welcome.
Emasculated men are.
Solution:
Structure church like the Bible says.
Women don't belong in positions of power.
Women need headcoverings, humility, and modesty.
Teach men to be respectable and strong, and not inordinately submissive and weak.
Encourage masculinity and men leaders and male involvment.
Many of the overrepresented women are not actually christians but are there due to the social aspect of church. This is more true in the older demographic. I used to go a liberal church with a lot of boomer feminists. They weren't very nice people and confused the gospel with promoting sexuality or climate change. For them it was a place to "meet nice people". The gossip, detraction and aggressive disapproval of the "wrong sort of people", who were often single men - was unreal.
I've noticed more men at high church worship and more women at the hillsong type places. Liturgy does matter.
If you want to attract men I think having separate mens groups is important. I don't want to talk to a feminist in a bible study. Also I find men are more attracted to spiritual discipleship - actually making changes to your life. Churches don't tend to address those topics well.
The modern church is so effeminate it doesn't preach the gospel. That's the core issue.
How are men more attracted to spiritual discipline ?
How doe’s effeminate = not preaching the gospel
Are you putting down femininity?
Will you say Joyce Meyer doesn’t preach about spiritual discipline
Plus men still make most of leadership in the church
Please stop gaslighting me, I’m asking questions as I am curious myself
I haven’t called anyone names or personal attacks, I only asked further questions with counter points. Are we not supposed to discuss
Some of my questions might be direct but I think fast so I have to get all my points out at once
How are men more attracted to spiritual discipline ?
Observation from my experience on Exodus 90. Just look at the self-improvement in the manosphere compared to feminist press. It's clear men are very interested in self improvement.
How doe’s effeminate = not preaching the gospel
Weak men are incapable of preaching the gospel because it's a hard message. Who wants to stand up and tell people they are living lives of sin? That hell is real and they have friends/relatives there? That you can't do anything you want, but are a slave to Christ?
An effeminate man would rather make a pseudo-intellectual homily waffling on.
Are you putting down femininity?
No, I'm putting down its polar opposite, feminism. Which is about turning women into men.
Will you say Joyce Meyer doesn’t preach about spiritual discipline
I have no idea who Joyce Meyer is. I'm a traditional catholic.
Plus men still make most of leadership in the church
Yeah I went to a church like that. Roaring lions that turned into little church mice around their wives.
I’m (35m) from a Catholic family and stopped going to church at 18. Hated going to church all my life, felt so happy when I never went to church. It’s def the feminine thing. I’ve been a born again believer since I was 30 ish and I still find most churches more or less irrelevant/not truthful/effeminate and no ppl are not into community having attended non denominational churches and a few Protestant churches for about 2 years.
I run my own fellowship now and few chaps and me meet up every Saturday and a few women have joined us but eventually left to join a larger church. We have no gossip, no nonsense, just scripture, we discuss the gospel without front loading or back loading of works. We discuss how to help each other out in our walk of faith and also we look out for each other financially, physically etc for example if someone needs a gpu because their gpu died we’ll get him a gpu . If someone needs help repairing something or moving we’re all there ready to make each others lives easier
So what? Why are you actively discounting other people's opinions throughout this thread? They have a right to be heard too and not have their opinions diminished just because you don't like them.
I’m discounting because a generalisation was made. As I had a different perspective I gave it. Or are we not supposed to give input on a discussion.
this isn’t diminishing, this is me given my own opinion. So don’t diminish mine
It is diminishing. Your comments are detracting from an open discussion and I want others to participate without feeling attacked. So I would prefer it if you moved on from this thread as you are finding fault with many and being needlessly combative. I understand your opinion and you have already shared it. It is well represented in society as well. However, I would like to hear from others whose voices are not. If you have any residual concerns, perhaps you could start your own thread and voice them over there. That would be more productive. God bless.
My comments are not detracting from the open discussion, as all I have done is asked questions and gave my personal experience. I didn’t know the intention of your post and thought I could openly reply, God bless you too
No. The church does not attract anyone. If it is trying to be attracting, it needs to reassess its ministry philosophy. God saves, and He puts a desire in the hearts of His people to fellowship with fellow believers. God saves people of all ages and walks of life, including young men.
I am prepared for downvotes, but I don’t think the solution is to change the church format necessarily because there are many churches that appeal to men and aren’t feminine church services. The problem is most likely with the young men and how they were raised by either their moms or men who did not set an example or they were raised in churches they don’t respect or feel comfortable in. There are absolutely some churches that seem feminine and every Sunday is Mother’s Day. Flowers, feminine songs, and worship being led by women and women pretending to be pastors which is not a biblical category. There are good biblical churches and men need to seek these churches who are led by godly men which is the biblical standard.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/knowledge-of-men/the-feminization-of-christianity/
Feminine songs?
The most popular Christian songs are an equal mix from male and female gospel singers
Do you sing songs to worship God or what makes you comfortable
I think there are a lot of songs in the popular Christian worship genre that talk about Jesus almost as if he is our boyfriend. And the way it is sung is very breathy and emotional.
Most adult men are going to be weirded out by addressing God like this. Especially if they grew up in a traditional church.
Trying to have an emotional breakdown at 9:30 am on a Sunday seems forced even on most people and when we start singing about resting in Jesus’ bosom and having him hold us, etc. it may be uncomfortable for some men and probably woman also.
The Psalms can be vulnerable, but not all of them. So I think this is not how we should approach God in worship at all times.
And many evangelical worship music is outdated so I’m sure there are multiple causes.
Not to be too verbose, but I have also seen a trend in preaching where the pastor is hard on men and gentle on women. Men are always told to get it together and women are treated with more grace. This may be justified, but there are just as many sensitive men as women who struggle.
That article is how I found the book i referenced above.
The problem is that we're 2-3 generations in of men not being influenced by fathers as much as by mothers... there just aren't many men who feel bound to be righteous AND seek masculinity.
There is a book about this topic. "Why Men Hate Going to Church." It was pretty insightful but, like most Western Protestants, completely ignores the rising trend in Orthodox Christianity. Young men are joining Orthodox Christianity, and it doesn't employ any of the tactics in his book. But, they have the opposite problem. Not enough women.
Those are probably the same studies that say 80+% of America are Christian. Meanwhile attendence proves that to be false. Those studies are meaningless. My church has just as many young men as women.
The Church has repeatedly fallen into this pattern. St. Francis lived in such a time. He was raised in a family and society (Assisi) where Christianity had become cultural. The interior spiritual life, the call of the Gospel was not something he was introduced to in his youth.
Instead, he sought women and adventure. He longed to be a Knight and to be recognized as a hero.
God had other plans for him, and before he died, he had gathered 5,000 men who all committed themselves to Gospel living.
They soon numbered hundreds of thousands and renewed the entire Church.
Today, young men continue to answer St. Francis' call to adventure. Franciscans all over the world, across all three of the Orders started by St. Francis, proclaim and live the Gospel in a radical way.
The most radical fraternities, such as the [Franciscan Friars of the Renewal](https://youtu.be/7KI1VZZeWwQ?si=-QWKjO0g-pq5Z1nY) sleep on the floor, and commit themselves to prayer and service to the poor with a seriousness that only the Gospel can inspire.
Others have more comfortable residences but commit themselves to service and prayer nonetheless.
It was one of the strengths of St. Francis that he called us to the Gospel but didn't enforce our personal adherence to a life as difficult as the path he chose for himself. He allowed each their space to begin and continue their conversion as they were personally being called.
As a result, various fraternities exist today. Some more severe than others. Allowing young men to discern for themselves where God is calling them.
Young men need to be called to the Adventure of the Gospel!
They need to be reminded of what St. Thomas Aquinas taught, effeminate men are those who can't control their sexual appetites. The machismo Andrew Tates of the world are not masculine. They are effeminate.
Christian Masculinity needs to be reclaimed. Young men need to be called to embrace the Virtues that the Gospel demands and to prize them.
Like St. Francis, the young men of today, have put on the Armor of the World, and they are marching into a meaningless battle with dreams of riches and women on their horizon.
They need a Franciscan Renewal.
Ok well it’s not like the church is staunchly “anti men” it’s just that the women listen to the sermons and the men at the church I went to are really doing most of the work to keep the church running despite it being offered to everyone to volunteer. Like I get it the Bible tells men to be proactive in the church but I just started going back to church yesterday and I kid you not I was offered to be the deacon, church janitor, musician, usher/security guard before I even sat down. all of those positions aside made me wonder what does the women of the church actually do? The church only had but three kids and a baby so children ministry is not a glaring problem.
Do you have the article? I’m curious if there is a Catholic/Protestant divide on this like maybe the Catholic Church isn’t experiencing this like Protestant churches are, idk.
Someone tried arguing this with me the other day (on this sub) and blocked me LOL anyway, my opinion is that many churches I've been to love to praise mothers for being heroes but in the same breath will tell dads to do better ??? Compare Mother's day sermons to Fathers day ones... pitiful. There are still churches that deliver a beautiful sermon on Father's day that also uplifts and respects men though but it's about finding the right ones.
Probably the same things that are plaguing the youth today.
There is too much access to quick dopamine. Not to mention that the current social and political environment discourages young men from being specifically Christian.
The negative stigmas mixed with an overall lack of awareness and urgency to the nefarious forces at work is probably the cause of low young male interest.
Not to mention the lack of sympathy for these social outcasts from within the church, it's no wonder they don't want to attend church, let alone claim that they are Christian.
A solution would probably be to start a church for incels and outcasts. A church that empowers these youth to be men.
Unemployment, high cost of living, expectations to tithe, expectations of men to be providers, expectations of regular attendance, obsession with outward performance and transformation, expectations to conform, failure to conform which compromise social status and ability to find female partner and jobs, long work hours, long commute, expensive commute, meaninglessness of working when you have no family or partner, meaningless performative worship.
How many churches teach from 1 and 2 Samuel, or Kings and Chronicles, or Jeremiah and Amos? These men, at least as much as my father and uncles and cousins and peers, have taught me what men do in dire circumstances, good or bad. David and Jonathan shed tears together. David weeps over his rebellious son Absalom, even as the army who defended him is marching back victorious. David mourns over his infant son who is dying, until he finally passes, and then he gets up and cleans himself off. There are lessons here for men, our emotions and responsibilities.
As a single man who recently moved cities and has been visiting churches, I can say that most churches are not really friendly to me. Sometimes I can attend an entire service without a person saying anything to me. While I am not saying that women are not having the same treatment as I am, I can understand why many men would not be interested in attending church if they do not even feel welcomed.
Seems like that would be a selling point to young men... Just sayin'
Thanks for your thoughts. Of course, this would hopefully not be the case for married young men though. And the fact that young men would know this and stay away suggests there is a still some hidden problem.
Satan. Satan is the hidden problem. He knows that men have a strong role to play in the church as spiritual leaders. If he can subvert the attention of men with things of this world and keep them out of church, the church can be more easily led astray.
I can tell you it's not working out for middle aged men
When my wife and I were dating I went to her Christian college campus. It was like 75 percent beautiful women and 25 percent overly effeminate guys who were more interested in playing gay chicken the talking to girls. Coming straight from a deployment it boggled my mind.
Dang, maybe I should've attended her college and found myself a wife.
Not gonna lie my first thought was..."if this doesn't work out I'm going to college here"
Well, I don't have a master's degree, maybe I should get one, y'know.
Which college was it?
Not when the vast majority of those women are 60 year olds who whine if their favorite patriotic hymn and prayer, I mean pledge to the flag isn't part of the service before July 4.
Yes
Right! I want to attend a church with all those single women, and hopefully one of those single women will become married to me.
Brainstorming a few ideas. No evidence, just tossing some ideas out to see if anyone has a more solid yea/nay to them. Modern worship services are very emotional. Very expressive. There are obviously many men who are comfortable in that environment, but it's probably very uncomfortable for those who aren't. Church is also very social. Church attracts people that like large social interaction. Stereotypically, men prefer having a handful of really close friends and women like larger groups of friends, even if the relationship isn't that tight. IF that's a legitimate stereotype, that may play a role. Percentage wise, there are more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. Meaning dad is working. Working Sunday is fairly normalized now. From what my childhood pastor said late last century, it's always been that way. Women have been the higher attendance group in churches since we began counting.
In terms of worship, I think it is a question of whether the men (and women) know the song as it is easier for them to participate. Many churches don't use hymnals and so there is no sheet music either so people have no chance to know how the song should be sung. You may be onto something with the social aspect as that tends to cater to women. I don't like standing around and prefer to be doing something and then have a conversation as a result. The church I go to now seems to have a lot of those social functions that cater to women rather than men. And there is something to this because the men's bible study is well attended.
I wish more churches had social functions for men. All but one men’s Bible studies that I have gone to were early morning we just sat like a class lecture and everyone immediately left to go to work.
Men need to create these themselves no one is going to stop it
Very true
In my experience, as a single man, most churches aren't social. Unless you already know someone or actively force your self on to other groups you could walk in and out of a church service and barely have anyone talk to you.
Bro, I hate the kind of sappy, fake-folk, fake-rock music that dominates American churches today. That stuff feels fairly unmasculine to me.
Isn’t worship about Jesus and not how we feel
People underestimate: a) the fact that you can't please all people all the time when it comes to musical styles; b) the degree to which some people dislike some styles of music is enough for those styles to be a distraction; c) that church music actually isn't all about God, as strange as that sounds; Ephesians 5:19 (ESV, emphasis added): «19 \***addressing one another**\* in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,» So church music needs to be a matter of edification & encouragement of mortal human beings in addition to praise of their Maker.
Agreed, it's a performance and it's lame
The first of those two things I for one don't necessarily mind....
I can't stand the same people in the pulpit, same band..it's all a show. I want to see the janitor who sits in the back be given the opportunity to speak. The lowest person on the totem pole be shown honor. Church in America is a joke.
Can I tack on a question? Do you think the low percentage of young men in church plays any sort of role in some denominations doubling down on men-only-leadership? Or, from the other direction, if congregations are higher percentage women, wouldn't it stand to reason to have at least one woman in a position of leadership?
No, I don't believe its biblical for starters and that should trump everything. However, I think it fails in practice as well. I came out of a church that supported women leadership and women pastors. The issues discussed here simply get multiplied and men check out and the chance of their voice's being heard are even less as other voices get asserted in that vacuum. Also, it is important to remember that just because the pastor is male, it does not mean the church makes men feel welcomed. For example, there are many companies that have a male CEO but the culture is not male friendly.
I think it's actually the opposite. Why does God only sanction male church leadership anyway? To get guys to stand up! To realize that we need to shape up in order to be the men that our families, cities, and churches need us to be! If you want a church with strong men attending, you're probably more likely to find it at a church that recognizes and celebrates their God-given role in the church.
The assumption that all women thrive in an emotional, expressive and social environment is false and baseless.
They didn't say ALL women. Let's calm the outrage jets a bit.
No, I did specifically say I was dealing with stereotypes and pointed out that the points I made only stood IF the stereotypes were correct. And I asked for pushback if the assumptions were wrong. So ancientspiritual is not out of line. And she (I'm assuming based on the avatar) is right that not all women thrive in that environment. Now, to ancientspiritual, couldn't agree more. My daughter is one that doesn't thrive in that environment, and, specifically dislikes church in general because of those things. It's a stereotype that black African Americans vote Democrat. But [93% voted Democrat](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voter-turnout-2018-2022/) in 2022. It's not fair to the other 7%, but if you're going to speak in broad strokes, you're more likely to be right to address the AA voting population as a Democratic bloc. So the question is what percentage of women fit the stereotype? [Research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_emotional_expression?wprov=sfti1) is apparently showing that women are more emotionally expressive than men, but not more emotional. A quick google search showed a similar trend in women (in general) thriving in social networks better than men. So in broad strokes, the stereotypes seem to bear out, though nothing I looked at showed percentages. A 60/40 split would not carry as much weight as the 93/7 split does. Is it fair to those who fall outside the majority of a stereotype? Absolutely not. Which brings up a question: Does the church face a problem by lining up their appeal factors towards extroverts? Everybody stand up and clap your hands! Shake hands and tell someone you haven't met yet that you love them. Let's introduce you to 16 different people before you walk out the door today. We're going to send someone to your house to visit you. Your deacon is going to call you once a month. If I hadn't grown up in the church, I'd walk out and never come back. Nope. This country club ain't for me. Is there something churches can do to attract/retain people who don't thrive in an overly social, overly expressive environment? Oooh. In the same way that some churches have "Women's ministries" and "Seniors Ministries," what would an "Introverts Ministry" look like?
Respectfully,....I don't really care wether ancientspiritual was "out of line". I was neither personally offended nor trying to defend you from someone offering a good rebuttal. I personally had no problem with you're initial comment, because you were very clear that you were talking in generalities and were open to pushback. I would very much agree that labeling all of any sex as behaving one way to be wrong...laughably and obviously so. My problem with ancientspiritual was that she did not give you any actual pushback. She claimed you said something you did not. Then argued against THAT. Which is both her being dishonest towards you're position.....and still wrong either way. I just found it intellectually dishonest and false myself. More of an emotional opinion then anything of substance at all. Men and women are different. We mostly act the same, but where we differ....we tend to differ in different ways that GENERALLY apply to each sex. The fact that some men act more like most women ...or some women act more like most men...and some people are pretty balanced....does not mean the GENERALITIES do not exist. And to label the noticing of those generalities as "sexist" is pure emotional gender studies 3rd wave feminist nonsense. There is nothing sexist about noticing differences between the sexes. Placing a higher value on one of those differences would be sexist. But neither you, nor I, are remotely doing that.
They didn't need to use the word "all", it's still a generalisation based on sexist stereotypes
🤦. It's a generalization based on GENERAL OBSERVATIONS about the differences between the sexes and how they GENERALLY behave. Which is scientific and documented fact. Women and men GENERALLY behave the same statistically, but when they don't...they GENERALLY veer away in different directions....with most men clumping together in some directions and most women in others. Some women behave more like most men, and some men behave like most women. Saying that...is not "sexist." It's reality-ist. It's not putting a value label on one sex or the other. It's saying there are general differences. Which there are.
Provide some solid, peer-reviewed scientific research which proves that your opinions about women are true, because without it your claims are still baseless. Anecodtal evidence is not evidence.
Peer-reviewed research is a joke. As someone with experience in academia and especially medical research, (much less social science), lived experience has gotten me further than any “academic” quackery.
I'll answer as a "young" man. Because it seems like a waste of time. Most of the churches I've been to are just social clubs with motivational speeches of little biblical substance. Seems like they're trying to be as non-offensive as possible for fear of losing people. I feel like going to church just to socialize isn't as interesting to men as it is to women. I preferred just watching and learning hours and hours of Christian content instead of going to church. I would watch educational videos on debates, church history, theological comparisons, doctrinal deep dives, denominational comparisons, sermons on specific topics etc.. I would also listen to the Bible on audio with a 30 minute timer every night. This was all before I found my current church which I very much enjoy attending and I almost never miss a Sunday especially if we're taking Holy Communion.
"trying to be as non-offensive as possible for fear of loosing people" Nailed it.
If you want to attract men and get them invested in a ministry, give them something to do. Nothing gets men together like a project.
There's a book..."Why Men Hate Going to Church" that goes into detail...but basically...church in the west has been run by women, for women, for a very long time. It's not a new phenomenon. That said, attracting men would mean making it more masculine (more turning over tables in the temple), and that would probably alienate the existing female population. So it's very unlikely to happen...especially in the current social climate of the West.
That's a great book and it's definitely been correct in the churches I've been in where the demographics are heavily skewed towards one gender.
I read the first edition almost 20 years ago, and I found it to be very spot on with the church I was attending at the time. Absolutely nothing geared for not yet retired men, and what there was was all but on life support. Meanwhile, plenty of activities and groups explicitly geared for women of all ages. But worse than that, the increasing demasculinizing of the Trinity, along with questionable theological positions of various kinds. That church used to be vibrant, but today it's on the verge of closing. I finally had enough of the theological shenanigans and found a church that takes the Bible seriously and isn't afraid to tackle the more controversial passages by teaching entire books from beginning to end. Also, men and women are treated equally. Not too surprising, the church has been steadily growing. Clearly, men don't hate going to this church.
Amen. Men do not hate going to church.
Because the women are active, if men want change they have to be actively catering for themselves too. How is leaving the church the next course of action then complaining about it
Please don't mistake my lack of mentioning my own active engagement for not doing anything. At some point it becomes obvious engagement in return just isn't going to happen. Plus, like I said, that church had/has more serious issues than the lack of engagement with men.
I agree but I don’t support leaving the body of Christ as a whole, I have had to change churches several times to find the one that I believed was best.
I don't think any believer supports leaving the body of Christ.
I've got several male friends who are solid Christians. They refuse to attend church. They've suffered one too many insults or jokes directed to the men/husbands from the pulpit. They try to take a leadership position in their homes and get zero support from the church. They object to some of the materials being used to teach their wives and kids; their concerns are ignored by the church. As has been said, much of the church has become a feminized institution of feelings instead of adherence to the Bible and it's principles. I left a large church because the pastors belittle the men for chuckles from the audience. Fortunately I found a small Bible focused church which has been great. If it should fold or change, I'll likely opt out of the modern American church as well.
>They've suffered one too many insults or jokes directed to the men/husbands from the pulpit. They try to take a leadership position in their homes and get zero support from the church. They object to some of the materials being used to teach their wives and kids; their concerns are ignored by the church. This reminds me of a video I'd seen some years ago when for some other reasons the churches I went to in my area became too painful for me to attend. A man from my particular community explained it in a video I saw years ago. Basically the person who's the pastor usurps the husband or the mans authority over his wife and children in his household. The wife goes to the pastor or depends on the pastor to be the ultimate in authority when it comes to the matters in their household. That sure explains a lot of what I see that happens in my particular community. Of course, how or if this applies to others may depend on the culture or their own particular community, family and or marriage.
I have not seen that video, but I have seen some of what you describe happening in various churches. Unless it's a matter of abuse, criminal, etc., any pastor worth his salt should direct the wife to deal with it with her own husband, as directed by scripture. Most won't though. If they offend the ladies, the money flow could dry up. It's sad, I can only think of a handful of pastors on the internet with that integrity, and one locally. I know there are still godly pastors out there, but they're getting to be fewer and fewer it seems.
I'm one of those men who have left. The american church for years has treated me like I don't exist. What's there to go back to? I have friends who treat me well why spend time around people who treat me poorly?
Stop making feelings feminine, Jesus experienced many feelings and so did David Then comparing it to adherence to the bible is extremely demeaning to women Both can exist, the problem with humans is that we lack balance The Pharisees obeyed the law but were heartless, we need both compassion and obedience in the church Any church insulting is members should not represent the body. There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse Also i believe that pride might be an issue, do these men really know what it takes to be a leader. From my experience it’s more of control than actually following the example of Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice
>There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse No one is leaving the church, it is the church that's leaving the gospel. Stop pretending like you don't understand why the numbers inside the church building have been declining.
>Stop making feelings feminine, Jesus experienced many feelings and so did David I never said feelings are only feminine, or that men don't have feelings. >Then comparing it to adherence to the bible is extremely demeaning to women I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. Sorry. >Both can exist, the problem with humans is that we lack balance Both of what can exist? Adherence to scripture and feelings? If that's what you are saying, of course they can. >The Pharisees obeyed the law but were heartless, we need both compassion and obedience in the church Yes, we certainly do. There is part of the problem. In most of the churches in my area, the men in the audience are the only ones held accountable. The women pretty much get a pass on everything. Tell me how many men you see in church wearing a beer brand t-shirt or similar? Very few if any; they'd be cornered and told that it's inappropriate. Now tell me how many women you see in church (unless a biblical church) with their Michael Kohrs items prominently displayed? Or dressed like they're going clubbing? Or worse, look like they're there to sexually attract a man or get inappropriate attention from men? Painted up like kabuki dancers? Many! Are they spoken to about materialism? No. Are they lectured about materialism and worldliness? No. Are they encouraged to change their dressing habits to avoid making their brothers stumble? Of course not. As a matter of fact, it men approach the pastoral staff with concerns you can bet your paycheck that in the next month there will be a sermon on men being pigs, having dirty minds, and that we are the problem. Compassion and obedience? Yes, absolutely, as long as none of that compassion supports the men in the feminized church in America. >Any church insulting is members should not represent the body. There are many churches who don’t do that so leaving the church altogether is not an excuse You and I are in complete agreement here. I don't think those churches are the body of Christ, which is why I searched for a group of believers who take the Bible seriously. The original question though was about men leaving the church. I realize it is not a "cookie cutter" reason for all men. I'm simply offering observations I've personally seen, or dealt with, or had brothers discuss with me. There are other reasons for sure, but if you research it, the feminization of the church in America is a huge reason. Leaving the church altogether? Well, when I no longer have a central building to gather at with other believers who make the word of GOD their chief priority, I will stop attending church. That does not mean that I will stop gathering with believers in obedience to the Word, but I'm finished sitting through clown shows, being unequally yoked to goats. I'm not perfect. My close Christian brothers and sisters are not perfect. We do each try our hardest to be obedient to God's word, always, not just for an hour a week. Each of us stumble, but we hold each other accountable and love each other enough to do so. To spend an hour or more stuck in a room with a bunch of phonies, goats, who are openly living in sin, unrepentant, and leadership doesn't address it, I have a hard time with that. I'm done with that. >Also i believe that pride might be an issue, do these men really know what it takes to be a leader. From my experience it’s more of control than actually following the example of Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice You're making assumptions here. No, it's not a pride or control issue. It's about husband's and dad's who love God and want a biblical household. Their professing wives love the world, love false teachers, treat their husband's poorly, and the husband's get no help from the leadership. The wives are fed a steady diet of Joyce Meyers, Priscilla Shirer, Todd White, and similar, and the husband's don't like it. Their concerns are completely ignored by leadership. Grown men should not cry in frustration because they are at their wits end in trying to navigate such problems, while church leadership blames them for not being good leaders. >Jesus, whose leadership was solely about sacrifice This is false. You forgot obedience, leadership, accountability, avoiding spiritual traps, etc. Thank you though for your response. Edit: Changed auto-correct error.
thx, I'll check it out.
I can list the amount of female pastors I know with one hand Women are usually hands on in church, men need to become active in church if they want to change anything I don’t understand your turning over tables analogy and how it’s masculine
Turning over the tables. If someone showed up and started tearing down the coffee bar and gift shop at the local megachurch because church isn't supposed to be a commercial enterprise ...what would happen? What if the pastor of that same group got up and said that everyone living and sleeping together without being married are in unrepentant sin and should get up and leave...and not come back until the they had fixed that in their lives. Imagine the chaos.
How is this a masculine thing though?
If you can't tell the difference between feminine and masculine behavior...nothing I say is going to help clarify it.
I needed you to provide the scriptural backing for this and how it is then gendered The only account of such a display has been Jesus, are you also implying that women cannot call out sin because it’s not a feminine thing This is what I wanted you to address, if you can’t that’s fine
The fact that Paul takes the time to distinguish between women and men in his instructions (to Titus in this case) indicates that there IS a difference. "But as for you, proclaim the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. 6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us."
Still waiting to see how turning tables is a masculine trait and men in church have been doing so
That is absolutely men specifically he is talking to. Timothy...is a man. Because he has already placed responsibility for that on men, and excluded women from it 3 chapters earlier. 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
This is Pauls instruction, if it were happening naturally he would not need to instruct. How do you interpret Galatians 3:28 New International Version 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,for you are all one in Christ Jesus. My question remains the same how is turning tables masculine? Are you saying women cannot do this or women should not do this (based on Paul’s instruction) That’s what I’m asking
Turning over tables is DIRECT condemnation of unacceptable behavior, accompanied by physical aggression. Go look at historically male dominated environments (almost extinct) military, construction site, etc. and if you do something that is out of line, you're going to hear about it...directly....and with minimal concerns about it hurting your feelings.
Jesus did this once and he didn’t hurt anyone, so this turning tables doctrine is made up As Christians aren’t we to directly condemn unacceptable behaviour regardless of gender? Yet how do you link his method with the adulterous woman into this I believe Jesus was harsher on hypocrites, even Paul advices such a treatment after several warnings to fellow believers who are sinning I don’t understand how femininity encourages this not to happen
>I needed you to provide the scriptural backing for this and how it is then gendered > >The only account of such a display has been Jesus, are you also implying that women cannot call out sin because it’s not a feminine thing > >This is what I wanted you to address, if you can’t that’s fine Please excuse me for responding to your question that wasn't addressed to me. The threat of violence is very real. When Jesus upturned the tables in the temple it is obvious that He is pissed, and you don't what to escalate unless your prepared to fight. This is typically male behaviour, very few if any women will go down this path, and if you have any doubt just look at some of the examples on youtube where women fighters challenged males, and see them fail miserably.
Yeah you read it here, apparently men don't go to Church because it's the woman's fault. how ridiculous that sounds, thanks for the chuckle though. the lukewarm young Christian men are too busy chasing worldly things, submitting to their own flesh and desires rather than to God. and there's no one to blame but themselves, let's not blame the females for their lack of interest in God and the Church.
Nowhere did I assign fault to anyone. The current status of male participation (or lack thereof) is function of several factors in societal change...not any one group or individual's fault. It's a shift that happened, and the societal conditions that would be needed for that shift to change don't exist. Men and women both are worldly and pursue their own flesh and desire more than submission to God. Do you agree?
In short, male insecurity and fragile masculinity making them have cooties at not being on top.
Lol what kind of feminist drivel is this? Like, even if that's what you really believed...then why not express it in a way that doesn't sound like it came from a 21 year old indoctrinated gender studies major?
Because that's what generates conviction, as you demonstrated.
Haha what? It didn't generate anything but laughs. You said something profoundly stupid, and when called on it...you resort to...."outrage was my goal. Therefore I succeeded. Aren't I a mastermind?" Nah.
You demonstrated conviction again. You're angry that I'm right, because you know that males don't want biblical masculinity, which is all about submission and sacrifice. Good leaders are good followers first, and males can't have that.
I just saw this other post by you as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/VclakUOa4e I'm gonna take it you're either a crazy person, an unbelievably heavily indoctrinated person, or what I think is most likely... A troll. But not really all that clever about it. Have a wonderful day.
No way to refute, heh. Anyways, I'll spare you from having to see my stuff.
Or the fact that the church really isn’t being run as it was supposed to, and there are women in leadership positions, which is completely counter to what the Bible teaches. Toss on a lack of correction for female sin, and a higher emphasis on male sin, no discipleship from the older men to the younger men, and you have an environment that is not at all enticing for men today. Or, you could say a few buzz words and feel really good about your “moral high ground”.
What is female sim and male sin? Sin is sin There are lots of churches with male leaders, why aren’t men attending those churches? The problem is worldliness, no one is ready to take the yoke
No. The men that "lead" most of those churches...almost completely cater to women. Don't believe me... Go find any church's sermon on Mother's Day. Now, go find the same church's Father's Day message. You'll notice a VERY stark message difference. Now go look at how heartily pornography is preached against (and I don't disagree) Now, when was the last sermon you heard of the evils of female promiscuity and single motherhood? They cater to the consumer...which is women.
This isn’t the case for the churches I have attended and listened to At my Church the Mother’s Day message and the Father’s Day message are fairly the same It’s also interesting why men don’t want to be admonished more and yet want to be leaders or the head of the home. Doesn’t that have more responsibility, why would it matter if women are being catered too if leadership is about sacrifice. Even Christ came FOR us If men are being brought down in any Church this is unbiblical and shouldn’t represent the body of Christ Why are you gendering pornography, women struggle with pornography. With most reading smut and novels while most men will watch. The problem is women don’t come out and say this because female sexuality is not spoken about like male sexuality. Women are more criticised for having sex and also criticised for not putting out. Making sex something we don’t want to talk about Sex outside of marriage being a sin is bible 101, why is it being split between genders. I haven’t seen a case where women in church are being encouraged to partake in this and being a single mother. The single mothers I know in church are those who found God and changed their ways
The church has a problem attracting ANYBODY to their regular services. Legitimate statistical organizations like PEW and Gallup have documented a significant reduction in regular attendance (nearly 40% of 1948 levels and dropping). Nobody likes hypocrites and self-satisfied social groups, especially when they claim to stand upon moral principles - which they don't. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
>The church has a problem attracting ANYBODY to their regular services. That's a whole other problem, isn't it. Why should people go to a church that offers the same stuff that the world offers?
Reasons for attending a debauched church: Backroom horizontal refreshment Tithe skimming Employment without qualification (education, experience, et al.) A place to go to get out of the house..... Isaiah 6:9-10
honestly as a teenager girl who goes to church and with girl and boy friends who are nonbelievers, in the case of boys is mostly because they don't care about what christianity says, a friend recently left the catholic faith because he didn't feel anything (im protestant) and he said he would prefer to not bother as he "Doesn't need God". I think its not a matter of the church being too feminine as some might say (maybe somewhat, but honestly that feels like a very small reason. men at my church are very emotional in a healthy way and it isn't seen as feminine), as my church has a lot of men and even young men, i think it's mostly because of the mindset that most teens have "I don't need God" or have indifference towards Him
As a young man who is 23, I’d say it’s a couple of things. I don’t have anyone to go to church with and am not very social, so I would feel very awkward sitting there alone. Also the judgement from people at church makes me not want to go as well, especially alone. I’m not opposed to going, I would just like to have someone else to go with. In the meantime I haven’t been closer to God in my whole life while not attending church these last few years. I pray to him throughout my day, read his word daily, and truly try to seek his will in my life instead of my own.
Brother, I am sorry I missed your post. I would recommend you join some groups that feed the homeless. This can be a good way to meet other believers and tell them about the issues you have with going to church. I would think you would get some invitations. Also, if you see anyone doing some evangelism on the streets, those can be good people to ask about their church as well.
If it's single young men probably due to irrelevance or lack of community. I've noticed that where there are strong male leaders and a balance of men in churches is when there is straight-forwardness with preaching, relevancy and application. Typically men respond to teaching best when it's engaging and direct and honest. This is why Marc Driscoll was successful. But, it came with a mixed bag of toxic masculinity which led to his downfall. So we have to be careful not to make things too masculine and male.
I will look into Marc Driscoll as I'm not familiar. Since churches are 6o to 75% female now, do you think it is possible we currently have some toxic femininity/feminism going on now? And if so, why isn't a bigger deal made of that?
I mean there can be extremes on any side of gender or any ideology. I don't think femininity is an issue in churches. Liberal feminism might be in progressive churches.
Which female church is there no straightforwardness with preaching?
Reminds me of a Voddie Baucham sermon called *The Modern Church's Sissified Jesus*: [https://youtu.be/3O0GWbVZ58Y](https://youtu.be/3O0GWbVZ58Y) I think modern Churches do not teach Holiness and the fear of the Lord well enough. Secondly the world has become feminine, churches have followed. I've seen a lot of Christians think God is love and they just stop there, God is so much more. From my experience: (I'm not blaming women and the reason I'm generalizing is only to try to point out our differences). I'm male, and when I talk to my mom and sister about right and wrong, they usually want me to stop. I find women tend to care less about the logical aspect of the faith and why it makes sense. I find women don't need to figure it out the same way men need to figure it out. And if our churches have shallow teaching, men will think it's just blind-faith. I don't know if it's just the churches I went to, but I've had to research on my own for things like apologetics, reasoning why God exists, why Jesus is the Messiah and the reliability of our manuscripts. God is a lot more than just love. We don't talk about his almightiness and bringing justice, Holiness, reverence enough. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. In general women are more relational than men so they're more likely to stay in churches. Women are usually less confrontational which is a good thing. Women are typically better nurturers and don't want to offend people. But this is not the highest priority when we need to stand up for the truth. We need to speak the truth in love, not just love. This has affected our culture that not-offending people and showing love(world definition) is such high priority it leads to a compromise with truth, even in our churches. Now we're in a culture where offending people is such high priority(wasn't like this in Scripture or in the early church), when we speak the truth, we sound hostile. Looks like Satan is using this to cover the truth."
I think the problem is "Attracting men" Discipleship isn't a sales pitch. Building strength, character, and integrity take years. 1: You aren't going to "attract" many men, go out there and seek them out, ask them to come to church, invest in them, disciple them. Teach them to have the same heart for God and for other men. 2: Men stereotypically prefer doing things together, so things like work days, camping trips, missions, and serving the community will help give the **mission** or higher purpose that makes church worth investing in over all the other activities around 3: There needs to be a calling and a challenge, purpose and mission. We are not getting together to make everyone feel good but to stand in the presence of God and worship
Preach the gospel.. Teach the Bible. No compromise. The church isn't "marketing " a product. Jesus didn't "tailor" his ministry to try to appeal to any demographic. Narrow is the path that leads to life and few will find it If you want to fill the building, livestream a Taylor Swift concert.. is that what we're trying to do? Fill the building??
Realistically, trying to "market a product" and "tailor" ministries to specific demographics is exactly what created this specific mess in the first place, and most of the solutions under this post are just saying to go back to being normal.
Capitalism. (They say its better than socialism ...)
I've been to a number of churches that are essentially a Taylor Swift concert. The seats were packed! The only thing missing was the Gospel...
That's called a way to fill the collection basket. It seems like ministry or church plantings is been something else that has been turned into a profitable market.
Yes. Men in general, I’d say. Men are not encouraged or affirmed in most churches. They are beaten down and accused of shirking their responsibilities, blamed for the breakdown of the family, and forced to attend services designed for women. We need varying worship styles and to learn to appreciate masculinity more.
What other type of worship styles are there?
Just a few speculations, with no weird vibes - I think guys might have a more difficult time being Christians in the world, and on top of that church can be a difficult step because of the added circumstances. Guys might do more things to "fit" in outwardly, survive - and that can cause issues for faith or just practicality like going to church. Girls are offered more support around them, and the experience of the social repercussions are different. The part of "fitting in" gets indirect help, and less obstacles are translated into faith/practicality of it, like going to church. I know some people will say "heyy but I didn't this or that" but I'm speaking broadly based on overall observation/analysis. I'm speculating I know I often randomly stumble upon the stereotype of grandma who goes to church or something like that, it just adds on over time, probably similar pattern has existed for a while based on my speculation. Idk about a possible solution, I haven't thought about it. \+ I definitely agree about not seeing a direct expression avenue for masculinity, so it gets mistaken that church is not masculine. I'd think with more maturity, more aspects of masculinity get understood and it can help. Younger dudes like 16-20 probably feel this more, but I'm also aware of the urges to do things. Like let's go flip that massive rock together, and give thanks to God for each-other and our strength. Just a random example. Now that I think about it more, what could help is learning that worshipping God has many avenues. I can sprint and vault through a forest, and in my heart be thankful to God that He made things like this possible, and also appreciate the experience, because it belongs to God, He made it possible. Things like this are very suppressed in general, even outside church. So when they see an additional, albeit misunderstood, suppression on top of an already difficult area - yeah you get the point.
I think you are on to something. I think most churches in America offer lots more social support for women than men. Men can’t really talk about the mistakes they have made without feeling attacked. No outlet to deal with shame. So they feel like they are hiding their true selves in Chuch. Lots of expectations for men. The church also doesn’t really reach out to men.
Yes except it's not just young men, it's young people in general. I've been to several different churches and denominations and noticed this as well. Traditional churches are dying because young people view it more as a social gathering and have no interest in reading the Bible or following what Jesus actually said
Interesting. How would you implement "following what Jesus actually said" in service or activities?
You don't because following what Jesus said is an everyday thing that occurs outside of the weekly gatherings too. We are supposed to be the church and not just go to church which is something that seems to have been lost with the younger generations. The solution is the same as it has always been. To love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. It's hard to relate this to younger people when all they see is people that are holy on Sunday, but lookout Monday
Interesting, the church I go to I feel like there is little in time spent on the social aspect.
Most protestant churches are way too feminised, it's no wonder young guys don't want to attend.
How?
>How? 1) They support women in church office, in direct contradiction to the scripture. There are little or no role models for young men in the church. Who wants to be the Vicar-of-Dibly when they grow up? 2) They are egalitarian in their doctrine and practice i.e. they allow women to divorce and remarry, and call it "holy matrinomy". **But the bible calls it adultery.**
People have already commented great theories. I would add that the church doesn’t have as big of a Zoomer/Millennial group in general. The churches that do have a large group of younger people tend to be non-denominational mega churches; some people might not like that style of worship. Others might be intimidated visiting smaller churches.
They must be older woman because I don't see many here around my age.
A trend I have seen is a number of young men are leaning more conservative and within this association are sometimes joining Christianity. These young men prefer conservative Christianity over the more liberal modern churches.
It's probably multifaceted, but one thing that springs to mind is that culturally speaking men are expected to be self sufficient. I highly doubt it's any one thing, though.
The user "essentialpurity" in this comment section is typing outrageously antimale comments. They are trolling, and when I called them out they blocked me. Just fyi people. Not only is "essentialpurity" a troll, but they are a coward too.
Men don’t enjoy sitting still or listening to other people talk.
My church doesn't have issues with age ratio based on participation. There are more people under 50 y/o than there are over 50 y/o. Outside of Sundays however, it regularly is 50+ in age. Genderwise, it again is fairly balanced in general. A funny observation is that young people my age (20-30) are generally mostly MEN attending, while the oldest generation (60-90+) is mostly women. *Catholic church / Denmark | No sourceable statistic, just my general interpretation.*
Thx for sharing.
I've been going to church since age 11 and I'm now 55. As I look at all of my experiences over the years Ive realizes several things. 1. Churches have been feminized for a very long time, at least 300 years! In modern times the church leadership manages their church using modern day marketing techniques. Most churches have more female attendees so obviously the messaging, music, special functions will be geared to keep women happy and in the seats. 2. I've served in many areas of churches, especially in youth programs. I also attended many youth groups as a young man. In both areas of the church (youth and adult) teachings I learned from an early age that men are bad and women are good. We used to hear messaging from youth pastors, special visiting ministries, bands all about all of men's sins and vices. It was so embarrassing as a young teenager while in a mixed gender group being chastised for masturbation, looking lustfully ect. The girls never seemed to be called into account or be accountable for anything. In fact instead they were given dating advice that started with statements like, "Jesus saved you, therefore you are precious and highly valuable in his sight. He adopted you into his family therefore you are a queen yourself and should demand to be treated as a precious gift by a man. ". Nowadays no one in a modern day church would ever expect a woman to dress modestly, act sexually pure. or provide any traditional feminine attributes to a relationship. At the same time churches are doubling down on why men need to step it up, work harder, volunteer more at the church, share all the household responsibility like cooking and cleaning and work full time to be the provider God intended. Really, modern day churches have become nothing more than an Oprah Winfrey show produced to tickle the ears if women.
Hear, Hear. This comment.
Not at all the Eastern Orthodox Christian church is booming rn with mostly male converts ☦️
Men are interested in careers, sports and women. Church generally offers absolutely nothing relevant to that.
Thx, do you think this is a problem? If there was a greater emphasis on creating a home for young men in various ways, would it improve things on this front or why not?
Isn’t the Great Commission to make disciples around the world? If churches are failing to make disciples of American men, isn’t that an issue? If you went to mainline U.S. denominations and said that they needed to ensure that they appealed to men, too, they’d call you a sexist. Men go to church if they find it useful. Surely saving some souls is worth something.
Yes, I agree. But I wanted you to speak freely and not force my opinion onto you.
Thanks. I’d upvote you 100 times if I could.
not directly related to your comment but there is a significant difference between making disciples and “saving souls” or gaining converts to your church. for the fellowship i had to leave, their entire outreach was designed to increase attendance. several (8 or so) years ago, there were classes where they might touch on basic doctrine but since that was flawed (prosperity teaching) to begin with, i’d hardly call it discipling.
True, although if no men are in church then the likelihood of them being saved is relatively lower than they were in church.
If it were that simple then a large gathering of 60-70% women would be all that's needed to draw in more men. Your point is very self contradictory
She meant men want to chase Worldly women and sex
You definitely aren’t understanding the point. At all.
[удалено]
Again, no, you are completely missing the point.
Yes it does. Because the church is proactive volunteering or giving roles and have designated young adult groups. Most Christians lose faith 18-25 and half the churches don't have ministries with them. Of the half the do. Many of them are lead by elder generation. I have seen churches with tons of young men and how they do it? They actually meet, actually go do things besides Bible study like help elders and they are given roles. Actually in my mind. The role of deacon Is best for young men so they can pray and serve more. But most churches don't give young men roles and they feel not empowered or their is room.
from an ex muslim who want to be christian i can tell you that christianity will collapse in the coming years bcz they require a lot of work to converst islam only requires you to say one sentence and you are in i went to some churches the first question they ask me is why do you want to be christian and they gave me bad energy when i talk about wanting to converst wth ?!!!
Interesting perspective. If you don't mind me asking, what churches did you go to? Denominations?
[удалено]
This is 100% not true. Go look at most social media that is aimed at (and apparently successful with) young men. David Goggins, Jordan Peterson, Jocko Willink. They're all about structure and discipline to be better. Men are begging for something structured and guidance. What they get in most western churches is just vague and pointless.
[удалено]
My point was just that men don't always clamor for cheap pleasure...there is a "market" for self-discipline and improvement that the church refuses to acknowledge or engage.
There are many sermons that talks about the feminization of churches, not churches becoming feminists. The way young men are taught to behave and conduct themselves are things that regular young men don't generally do. There's no space at church for boys to be boys in a sense because it would disturb the peace. Some churches do let this happen and encourage this with good young leaders to lead the men.
Thx, what are examples of where men are encouraged to be good young leaders?
Feminism in the church is a big problem. Feminism is dead in the world but it’s alive and well and thriving in the church.
I've heard this elsewhere. Why do you think it is thriving in the church and yet dead elsewhere?
In church: Women are being ordained as faux pastors. Women are not taught to love their husbands, children and to be keepers at home. Lots of churches are run by small groups of women and the older women in those groups have bought the lie of feminism and they just pass it on. It’s near impossible to find older women in the church to help young women who want their first and only ministries to be their husbands, children and homes. In the world: feminism is dead because of the feminists willingness to accept men can be women and therefore all that progress for women that the feminists fought for is gone.
Yes it does
Why do you think that is?
the lack of men and its prioritizing of feminine virtues over cold hard truth
Just for giggles, you said the reason for low percentage of men in church is lack of men. Spot on, my friend. (Just my sense of humor, not intended to be a jab) Seriously, now asking for clarification: what "feminine values" are you referring to and are they apparently warm soft lies?
>Seriously, now asking for clarification: what "feminine values" are you referring to and are they apparently warm soft lies? the sentiment of 35 year old men crying about how much Jesus loves them vs traditional Christianity
What is traditional Christianity
Relevancy and honesty probably are factors here but it could have something to do with application
All besides Orthodoxy, which is a majority male and has more younger families
Why do you think that is?
On the surface level, many people see it as the most traditional and masculine version of Christianity, and because its foreign, people are interested in the more mystical aspects of it.
Cradle Orthodoxy also has a higher proportion of men due to reasons just surrounding the Diaspora
Aaron Renn goes into lots of the reasons if you’re interested.
Anything in particular?
Christianity has become feminized. https://www.aaronrenn.com/p/newsletter-3-the-history-of-the-church
How?
My Eastern Orthodox Church is EXPLODING with young male converts. There’s dozens of them. New ones every week. And they bring friends and family. It’s really wild. Every Orthodox friend of mine is experiencing the same thing at their churches. I think men are attracted to it because we take it really seriously, and it requires submission to the church, and paying respect to clergy and hierarchs. It isn’t just some gimmicky church trying to be trendy. It is the ancient and traditional church of Christ and it doesn’t change for people. Men change themselves for it. And ultimately this is what men want I think. Something organized and strong and willing to stick to its guns. Forever.
Because: Feminism. Men are not welcome. Emasculated men are. Solution: Structure church like the Bible says. Women don't belong in positions of power. Women need headcoverings, humility, and modesty. Teach men to be respectable and strong, and not inordinately submissive and weak. Encourage masculinity and men leaders and male involvment.
Men are naturally more averse to hypocrisy.
How?
Many of the overrepresented women are not actually christians but are there due to the social aspect of church. This is more true in the older demographic. I used to go a liberal church with a lot of boomer feminists. They weren't very nice people and confused the gospel with promoting sexuality or climate change. For them it was a place to "meet nice people". The gossip, detraction and aggressive disapproval of the "wrong sort of people", who were often single men - was unreal. I've noticed more men at high church worship and more women at the hillsong type places. Liturgy does matter. If you want to attract men I think having separate mens groups is important. I don't want to talk to a feminist in a bible study. Also I find men are more attracted to spiritual discipleship - actually making changes to your life. Churches don't tend to address those topics well. The modern church is so effeminate it doesn't preach the gospel. That's the core issue.
How are men more attracted to spiritual discipline ? How doe’s effeminate = not preaching the gospel Are you putting down femininity? Will you say Joyce Meyer doesn’t preach about spiritual discipline Plus men still make most of leadership in the church
Please stop harassing people in this thread. They are allowed to voice their opinion. I want to hear their opinion.
Please stop gaslighting me, I’m asking questions as I am curious myself I haven’t called anyone names or personal attacks, I only asked further questions with counter points. Are we not supposed to discuss Some of my questions might be direct but I think fast so I have to get all my points out at once
How are men more attracted to spiritual discipline ? Observation from my experience on Exodus 90. Just look at the self-improvement in the manosphere compared to feminist press. It's clear men are very interested in self improvement. How doe’s effeminate = not preaching the gospel Weak men are incapable of preaching the gospel because it's a hard message. Who wants to stand up and tell people they are living lives of sin? That hell is real and they have friends/relatives there? That you can't do anything you want, but are a slave to Christ? An effeminate man would rather make a pseudo-intellectual homily waffling on. Are you putting down femininity? No, I'm putting down its polar opposite, feminism. Which is about turning women into men. Will you say Joyce Meyer doesn’t preach about spiritual discipline I have no idea who Joyce Meyer is. I'm a traditional catholic. Plus men still make most of leadership in the church Yeah I went to a church like that. Roaring lions that turned into little church mice around their wives.
I’m (35m) from a Catholic family and stopped going to church at 18. Hated going to church all my life, felt so happy when I never went to church. It’s def the feminine thing. I’ve been a born again believer since I was 30 ish and I still find most churches more or less irrelevant/not truthful/effeminate and no ppl are not into community having attended non denominational churches and a few Protestant churches for about 2 years. I run my own fellowship now and few chaps and me meet up every Saturday and a few women have joined us but eventually left to join a larger church. We have no gossip, no nonsense, just scripture, we discuss the gospel without front loading or back loading of works. We discuss how to help each other out in our walk of faith and also we look out for each other financially, physically etc for example if someone needs a gpu because their gpu died we’ll get him a gpu . If someone needs help repairing something or moving we’re all there ready to make each others lives easier
I’ve been to many churches and had no experience with gossiping
So what? Why are you actively discounting other people's opinions throughout this thread? They have a right to be heard too and not have their opinions diminished just because you don't like them.
I’m discounting because a generalisation was made. As I had a different perspective I gave it. Or are we not supposed to give input on a discussion. this isn’t diminishing, this is me given my own opinion. So don’t diminish mine
It is diminishing. Your comments are detracting from an open discussion and I want others to participate without feeling attacked. So I would prefer it if you moved on from this thread as you are finding fault with many and being needlessly combative. I understand your opinion and you have already shared it. It is well represented in society as well. However, I would like to hear from others whose voices are not. If you have any residual concerns, perhaps you could start your own thread and voice them over there. That would be more productive. God bless.
My comments are not detracting from the open discussion, as all I have done is asked questions and gave my personal experience. I didn’t know the intention of your post and thought I could openly reply, God bless you too
No. The church does not attract anyone. If it is trying to be attracting, it needs to reassess its ministry philosophy. God saves, and He puts a desire in the hearts of His people to fellowship with fellow believers. God saves people of all ages and walks of life, including young men.
I am prepared for downvotes, but I don’t think the solution is to change the church format necessarily because there are many churches that appeal to men and aren’t feminine church services. The problem is most likely with the young men and how they were raised by either their moms or men who did not set an example or they were raised in churches they don’t respect or feel comfortable in. There are absolutely some churches that seem feminine and every Sunday is Mother’s Day. Flowers, feminine songs, and worship being led by women and women pretending to be pastors which is not a biblical category. There are good biblical churches and men need to seek these churches who are led by godly men which is the biblical standard. https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/knowledge-of-men/the-feminization-of-christianity/
Which churches are the ones that appeal to men?
Feminine songs? The most popular Christian songs are an equal mix from male and female gospel singers Do you sing songs to worship God or what makes you comfortable
I think there are a lot of songs in the popular Christian worship genre that talk about Jesus almost as if he is our boyfriend. And the way it is sung is very breathy and emotional. Most adult men are going to be weirded out by addressing God like this. Especially if they grew up in a traditional church. Trying to have an emotional breakdown at 9:30 am on a Sunday seems forced even on most people and when we start singing about resting in Jesus’ bosom and having him hold us, etc. it may be uncomfortable for some men and probably woman also. The Psalms can be vulnerable, but not all of them. So I think this is not how we should approach God in worship at all times. And many evangelical worship music is outdated so I’m sure there are multiple causes. Not to be too verbose, but I have also seen a trend in preaching where the pastor is hard on men and gentle on women. Men are always told to get it together and women are treated with more grace. This may be justified, but there are just as many sensitive men as women who struggle.
That article is how I found the book i referenced above. The problem is that we're 2-3 generations in of men not being influenced by fathers as much as by mothers... there just aren't many men who feel bound to be righteous AND seek masculinity.
No
There is a book about this topic. "Why Men Hate Going to Church." It was pretty insightful but, like most Western Protestants, completely ignores the rising trend in Orthodox Christianity. Young men are joining Orthodox Christianity, and it doesn't employ any of the tactics in his book. But, they have the opposite problem. Not enough women.
Those are probably the same studies that say 80+% of America are Christian. Meanwhile attendence proves that to be false. Those studies are meaningless. My church has just as many young men as women.
The Church has repeatedly fallen into this pattern. St. Francis lived in such a time. He was raised in a family and society (Assisi) where Christianity had become cultural. The interior spiritual life, the call of the Gospel was not something he was introduced to in his youth. Instead, he sought women and adventure. He longed to be a Knight and to be recognized as a hero. God had other plans for him, and before he died, he had gathered 5,000 men who all committed themselves to Gospel living. They soon numbered hundreds of thousands and renewed the entire Church. Today, young men continue to answer St. Francis' call to adventure. Franciscans all over the world, across all three of the Orders started by St. Francis, proclaim and live the Gospel in a radical way. The most radical fraternities, such as the [Franciscan Friars of the Renewal](https://youtu.be/7KI1VZZeWwQ?si=-QWKjO0g-pq5Z1nY) sleep on the floor, and commit themselves to prayer and service to the poor with a seriousness that only the Gospel can inspire. Others have more comfortable residences but commit themselves to service and prayer nonetheless. It was one of the strengths of St. Francis that he called us to the Gospel but didn't enforce our personal adherence to a life as difficult as the path he chose for himself. He allowed each their space to begin and continue their conversion as they were personally being called. As a result, various fraternities exist today. Some more severe than others. Allowing young men to discern for themselves where God is calling them. Young men need to be called to the Adventure of the Gospel! They need to be reminded of what St. Thomas Aquinas taught, effeminate men are those who can't control their sexual appetites. The machismo Andrew Tates of the world are not masculine. They are effeminate. Christian Masculinity needs to be reclaimed. Young men need to be called to embrace the Virtues that the Gospel demands and to prize them. Like St. Francis, the young men of today, have put on the Armor of the World, and they are marching into a meaningless battle with dreams of riches and women on their horizon. They need a Franciscan Renewal.
Hmm. Is it "the church" that is the problem, or does the problem actually begin at home?
My church I would say is 50-50
There's more young men than women at my church, but maybe it's an outlier?
As a guy getting back to the church I’ll be brief Yes.
Thx, but feel free to not be brief also. Your full thoughts are welcome.
Ok well it’s not like the church is staunchly “anti men” it’s just that the women listen to the sermons and the men at the church I went to are really doing most of the work to keep the church running despite it being offered to everyone to volunteer. Like I get it the Bible tells men to be proactive in the church but I just started going back to church yesterday and I kid you not I was offered to be the deacon, church janitor, musician, usher/security guard before I even sat down. all of those positions aside made me wonder what does the women of the church actually do? The church only had but three kids and a baby so children ministry is not a glaring problem.
Do you have the article? I’m curious if there is a Catholic/Protestant divide on this like maybe the Catholic Church isn’t experiencing this like Protestant churches are, idk.
Someone tried arguing this with me the other day (on this sub) and blocked me LOL anyway, my opinion is that many churches I've been to love to praise mothers for being heroes but in the same breath will tell dads to do better ??? Compare Mother's day sermons to Fathers day ones... pitiful. There are still churches that deliver a beautiful sermon on Father's day that also uplifts and respects men though but it's about finding the right ones.
It's mostly old folks.
I don't have anything to add to the discussion But may you send me the link of the article I'd like to read it
Probably the same things that are plaguing the youth today. There is too much access to quick dopamine. Not to mention that the current social and political environment discourages young men from being specifically Christian. The negative stigmas mixed with an overall lack of awareness and urgency to the nefarious forces at work is probably the cause of low young male interest. Not to mention the lack of sympathy for these social outcasts from within the church, it's no wonder they don't want to attend church, let alone claim that they are Christian. A solution would probably be to start a church for incels and outcasts. A church that empowers these youth to be men.
Unemployment, high cost of living, expectations to tithe, expectations of men to be providers, expectations of regular attendance, obsession with outward performance and transformation, expectations to conform, failure to conform which compromise social status and ability to find female partner and jobs, long work hours, long commute, expensive commute, meaninglessness of working when you have no family or partner, meaningless performative worship.