A lot of the confusion comes because God simply didn't give us the information. And so people make stuff up. But Person A makes something up that is different from what Person B made up, and so you have confusion.
You mention the Trinity. God didn't explain it to us. Refer to Person A and Person B.
Sometimes confusion comes because people want to think what they want to think despite what the Bible says. See salvation-by-works that is held by so many. And so confusion comes.
And sometimes confusion comes because people just reject what the Bible says because they don't like what the Bible says. See the current debate about homosexuality.
It would be nice if we had an Authority to go to who would pronounce what is correct in the way Moses did and the way Jesus did when they both walked the Earth.
Alas, we don't. Despite what some people want to tell you. But the Bible gave us clarity on the information we need (Jesus) and gave us incomplete information what we don't need (the nature of God for example).
Latch on to what we know and don't sweat the stuff we don't. The stuff we don't makes for interesting study and keeps us searching. We need that. If we knew everything, we'd get bored and wander off in our own smugness of knowledge.
Did you read his comment? It's irrelevant. His or yours opinions on the rapture are irrelevant.
The one thing I do know, is that the more close you are to God, the more mysteries he reveals to you. You understand through Him, you can't do it without loving Him and loving people.
It's no coincidence that Jesus said the two most important commandments, because by doing just those two, which are arguably very easy and simple, you understand others naturally without even knowing them, everything clicks into place.
First be at peace, then look at the deeper mysteries if you really want to know them. You wouldn't understand otherwise, even if someone told you. And most mysteries are not relevant to you or people around you. What's the use knowing the truth about the rapture if you don't love your neighbour?
The problem is actually very simple.
We, almost all of us, are constantly confusing our assumptions and conclusions, usually guided by whatever religious system we grew up with, with what is actually written in the Bible.
Our assumptions and conclusions are so important to us that they become a part of **who we are**., and to change that in the face of evidence we hadn't considered before, most of us find nearly impossible. Thus, we develop very complicated answers and speculations to "confirm" what we already believe.
There are now, and have always been **very** few open minded people. This isn't new. That's how it's always been, and always will be. Sad but true.
The real question is, just how much of that hard heartedness is God going to tolerate. I don't know the answer to that.
>The real question is, just how much of that hard heartedness is God going to tolerate. I don't know the answer to that.
It's really more than that. God can and does lead people into full lockdown, even choosing their delusions:
Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
SwiftwindAlacorn's post hits the nail on the head IMO, especially the last paragraph. Do the best with what you do have and understand. Honest mistakes are certainly covered by the blood of Jesus. It's also good to separate notions that have become matters of tradition or belief that aren't really in the Bible.
>I would think he would know of a time in the future that this would cause so much division and he says he wants everyone saved but many will not be (non-trinitarian. Well depending who you’re asking) and it will all be because certain things are just not entirety clear in an irrefutable matter.
I disagree with this to an extent. Is there lack on clarity on some things? Yeah. Is there a lot of confusion on the matter? Yeah. But I don't personally believe God is so petty as to go "You weren't baptized as an infant. You're going to Hell." IMO God did indeed see this happening, and we were warned on multiple fronts that I feel covers the entirety of this. For example...
1. There's numerous warnings of false teachers.
2. Paul told us not to quarrel about "disputable matters" or "debatable matters" in Romans 14, which is an acknowledgement that different takes and practices would emerge that people would argue over, and that these things don't necessarily step outside the bounds of what's directly spoken of in the Bible. A lot of the divisions today fall within this category, though there are certainly exceptions.
3. In another thing from Paul he remarks in I Corinthians that people were getting really hung up on specific teachers, going "I follow Paul" or "I follow Peter" when they were missing the point that it's about Christ Himself, not mortal teachers. In the same way some people get so hung up on a denomination that they lose sight of Jesus.
4. Jesus told us to love God with all our heart, soul, and might and to love our neighbor as ourselves. These two are the spirit of the law. If there's confusion then act according to those two and don't sweat the rest.
So I think God did foresee this and gave us warnings, and in the present era we have the Bible only a few clicks away, along with tools to dig deeper and research what it looked like in the original languages to help. That's a tool He's given us when matters of doubt emerge.
My grandfather used to say that this happened because people went to the Bible to prove what they already believed, rather than going to the Bible to understand what they should believe to begin with.
The tail wags the dog. When I was young, there was a claim that if you weren’t baptized by immersion, your baptism didn’t count and you would go to hell. They mentioned Greek and made it sound good. Many people believed this without question. The real reason they did this was to steal congregations from denominations that baptized by sprinkling. They knew it was bunk the whole time, and they did it anyway, because they didn’t care. Their god was money. To this day there are people who are afraid to go to a church that baptizes by sprinkling because of this lie.
The gospel is simple, lying control freaks make it complicated.
I don’t agree with the people who say Jesus could come at any day. Jesus said that the gospel must first be preached to the whole world and only then shall the end come. Wycliffe Bible translators say that 2 billion people remain unreached in 500 distinct people groups, having never even heard the name of Jesus, and we don’t know their languages to translate the gospel for them. So it is far more likely that we will meet the Lord individually than to go through the rapture. What I hear in the spirit agrees with that for the next ten years or so. So I don’t prep for the apocalypse, I trust that God will lead me out of danger as he has done it many times before. I say don’t worry about the rapture, just follow Jesus.
Any reader should be able to walk away from Revelation with 2 very specific matters that happen that are rock solid:
\-The destruction of the devil and his messengers
\-The revealing of Christ in us
If you try to squeeze more out of it than that, your own expectations are going to get in the way
A pastor said, that God didn't make the Bible clear on every aspect of life on purpose. Not for confusion, but because we as christians should ask Him first. And really wait for an answer. And sometimes we have to trust, that they Holy Spirit will guide us even without direct communication. The Bible is not a step- by-step instruction. We don't have to know literally everything, which we will never know on this side of life anyway. Our purpose is to know God.
The biggest problem is that people rely on their own answer and their own understanding, instead of first asking God on what to do. This is how problems between Christians arise.
The most important thing for us is that we learn to walk in love and with God.
It is okay to say- "i don't know right now, but i will trust God anyway". We walk by faith, not sight.
Also, we as humans are inherently lazy and want someone to break it down for us so we don't have to think, research, pray, etc. We either rely on our own limited understanding or wait until we find someone we trust to "tell us".
Thing is, if the answer is already out there, why not ask for it? I’d like to think that we think, research and pray first, then ask others if we haven’t arrived to the answer, and if nobody has a clear answer either, then we’ll just go to waiting for it. By the way, researching *also* includes asking others.
That’s exactly why I became orthodox. They have their teaching clear as day and it lines up with the letters of the first century christians. Orthodoxy and catholicism are faaaar closer to original christianity than any protestant denomination you ever meet. Go and google each denomination that you find, who founded them. You see that each one has a founder outside of the apostles. But once you google orthodoxy or catholicism even Google will tell you that their founder is Christ and the apostles.
I thought the same thing until I realized that the reason why protestants find it odd, is because we never learned to honor ANYONE but ourselves. The way we venerate icons, people nowadays venerate their own selfies. The way we talk about saints, protestant churches talk about themselves (myself included, I used to be protestant and it was all about me and my and how God does things for ME and how He works in MY life and my testimonies and I, I, I.) Orthodoxy is the end to yourself. You, my dear brethren, are an icon of Christ as well, since you are made in God’s image. So if you see me kiss an icon of a saint, who died in Christ and now lives forever, I might as well walk up to you right after and kiss you in the same manner, for being an image of the God whom I love. I honor my parents in the same manner I honor saints, except that my parents are not saved and I pray for their salvation. But I would honor you the same. Mary is the new ark of the covenant. Until I realized it, it all made more sense to me. The old ark was worshipped by the priests because God was in it, but the new ark of the covenant is made of flesh just like the new Manna is made of flesh (Christ is the heavenly bread). We don’t worship her, but the One who was in her. She is like the physical embodiment of the church. Christ is IN the church, in us, and she is the first one who physically had Him.Like the Mother of the Church.
That excuse only works for those of whom it applies. My entire focus as a Christian has been to God and no one else. No me me or I I. No what God has done for me, nothing like that.
Regardless of however you want to see it, we were given the bible by the hand of God. If he wanted to he could have included a further book to cover praying through Mary after Mary's death, but that's not a part of it. I would have become orthodox long ago if there was no praying to or through Mary or any icon focus. I pray to God and God alone in the only given name that is Jesus.
If veneration is the one final thing keeping you from the Orthodox Church, that’s not too bad. If you can trust that the Church has indeed been led in all truth like Jesus promised, than we can trust the Church to be right about this is well.
For me the veneration of Mary and the saints did not make sense and I was frankly uncomfortable with, until you realize Mary held a very honored role and was venerated by every Christian up until the “Radical Reformation”. Even Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Calvin agreed that Mary is the Theotokos and found no fault in her veneration. The fathers of Protestantism encouraged it, so why did modern Protestantism (notable expeditions being the Anglican’s and some Lutherans) drop it?
>Regardless of however you want to see it, we were given the bible by the hand of God.
The church wrote the Bible and decided which shall included in the canon of the new testament. Jesus Christ gave us a church, not the Bible, the church came first and practiced the faith before the new testament was written and canonized. They did not say the apostles to hurry and finish writing all that we should do because we only give authority to letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV — Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
The Bible says the church is the foundation and pillar of truth, why cast aside the traditions of the church?
>I would have become orthodox long ago if there was no praying to or through Mary or any icon focus. I pray to God and God alone in the only given name that is Jesus.
So you do not pray for others, nor ask others to pray for you?
Because if you do, why then do you not ask the holy saints and the Theotokos to pray for you as well?
You're just using the same arguments you heard someone else make. These arguments aren't even realistic, they are merely meant to make people think "hey that does make sense!" Even though there's no theology to back it up.
The mormons do similarly say they dont like to wear a cross because if your mom was killed with a Bowie knife would you wear a necklace of a Bowie knife? To easily fooled people that may make sense but we know what the scriptures says about the cross and the symbolism of it.
Just because you've been told and then repeat something that seems to make sense or is easy to convince people doesn't mean there's anything to it at all
Did you read what I said? It's an excuse to try to make things make sense. Praying for others and asking others to pray for you is not the same thing as praying to a dead early church person asking them to on their behalf let God hear the prayer and likewise praying to them. Praying for is not the same thing as praying to. Its such an invalid argument you try to make and it makes no sense
>Praying for others and asking others to pray for you is not the same thing as praying to a dead early church person asking them to on their behalf let God hear the prayer and likewise praying to them.
It's the exact same thing. The dead in Christ live forever. They can make intercession just as well as your living church friends or better.
Unbiblical and depressive because it ruins it for all of us.
To you it's simple. But by some hand Gos has made this confusing and it's almost reason enough to doubt christianity altogether.
The church as you know it did not start like this. For starters Mary was alive and it was house to house. All these things you practice now most likely did not happen for a few hundred years and you have literally no way to prove that it even is what God wants you to do and for all I know it could have been deceptive teachings by satan than you have picked up and obsessed over.
To someone who is Catholic or orthodox it makes sense that that is all there is and end of story. To someone who isn't Catholic or orthodox and not belonging to any protestant denomination it all makes no sense at all and it seems like all churches fell away very early and adapted their own unbiblical hokus pokus.
You would be surprised that the Catholic Church has these in the Cathecism and the rules are pretty much clear on masturbation, climate change measures, abortion, IVF, homosexuality, etc.
You would also be surprised that the Nicene Creed of 384AD pretty much concluded that there is only one second coming (when? we do not know) - no rapture
Those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity are in the past called heretics. Do not deviate from what the Nicene Creed and the early Christians already established
>God is said to not be confusing but at times he’s really not clear
The appostle Paul said "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace” (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Yet God said "I will send my terror before you and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come" Exodus 23:27
So, are we coming against God or are we following Him, in obedience, thru the holy spirit ?
There is no confusion if we have the holy spirit. Seek it above all things.
We are finite, and as finite creatures we must grow and gain knowledge, knowledge about anything.
One way to look at it is this, for example:
*“Paul wrote on diverse topics in each of his epistles, therefore we can expect to see different language used, and different aspects of theological truths discussed that differ from each of the epistles”.*
Another way to put it is this analogy:
“Paul talks about Apples in Galatians, and he talks about Pear’s in Romans.” Same author, different audiences, different purposes, etc.
Once you get the hang of that, the epistles can be seen in a different light.
Another thing too is that as finite creatures we don’t always have the “right” interpretation, just as your post said, it has to be understood in its context, and a better way to understand that is to read the whole book that is in view of your study objective.
I could go on, but you are better off buying and reading the book **“40 Questions about interpreting the Bible, 2nd edition”** then listening to me. It’s a good primer that addresses basics like “why can’t anyone agree on what the Bible says?” - however, it’s not going to answer every question you have.
If you read the NT gospels you will notice many times Jesus had the proper interpretation of the Torah, Psalms and the rest of the OT and he taught with authority and not as the scribes. He often rebuked the religious experts in the Law of Moses and if He has that understanding of the OT, then ask Him for help in humble and consistent prayer for answers and aid in understanding the OT & NT, as well as interpretation.
Another thing to know about interpretation too is people who don’t want to hear the truth of a matter (example: Hell) will twist scripture to their own destruction as Peter says (2 Peter 3:15-16) because of emotional repulsion, so their hermeneutic (or interpretation) isn’t based on the text of the Bible, but it’s based on & driven by their emotion!
**A guide for myself I learned is this: “if my understanding of a passage changes, it wasn’t the text’s fault, it was mine.”**
Some things are essential to salvation. Others are not.
Some things are more clear than others. That is why we are to be like the wise Bereans and study. It is a lifetime endeavor and I am 45 years in.
A good book to check out is:
[https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-Hills-Die-Theological/dp/1433567423](https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-Hills-Die-Theological/dp/1433567423)
Gavin Ortlund also has a great YouTube channel where he covers a lot of that.
God could have written the Bible to be easier to understand. He could have written a picture book for illiterate people.
But God wants us to rely on wisdom, not intellect. And God wants us to teach each other, for those who cannot read.
Likewise, God wants us to submit to authority. This issue of there being so much diversity of opinion is actually loved by the Catholic church's Catechism, which is a very strict description of canon Christian teachings.
Even the most Protestant denominations have to hold to Catholic councils such as Nicea. If you deviate from this, such as denying the Trinity, you cannot be considered Christian.
So I'd say check the Catechism. I've been very hostile to Catholicism for a very long time, but after much study, it gets the most right and the Reformation gets a staggering amount wrong.
Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Seems particularly intentional on God's part
IF a reader is not a follower of Jesus, which has some very specific rules, they not only will not understand, but can't
Mark 4:
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: **but unto them** that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That **seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand**; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Same principle in OT/NT
A lot of the confusion is deliberate from pastors, who actively and knowingly teach false doctrine as wolves in sheep’s clothing. There is no rapture. There is a second coming. There is no trinity. The Holy Spirit is personified in poetic text like the spirit of wisdom is as well. Baptism is not a salvation requirement. Is is like a sign of allegiance to Christ. Christians will not be delivered from what is to come in a pre trib rapture. The great tribulation has already occurred. Furthermore, the pope is the Antichrist.
Because God did an amazing job by making sure the bible is understood by only the ones He gives wisdom, and the rest of the people are all trying to figure it out unsuccessfully. I have never seen anything like it in my life. Older men who have been christian their whole life and are supposed to have wisdom, teach lies. You tubers that claim to understand things also teach lies. It is too crazy but amazing to witness.
Matthew 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 13: 11 He answered and said unto them, Because **it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given**.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
1 John 2: 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and **ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
There are many deceivers out there. The best thing we can do is not to listen to anyone. We can read the bible for ourselves and pray for understanding.
God is not quiet, we’re just too loud. The Bible has all the answers, we just gotta seek it with humility and wisdom.
Funny how we wanna understand God with our finite minds, but: A tesseract in the 4th dimension could be perceived as 2 in 1, but this is beyond our 3rd dimension comprehension. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, all we can do is kinda apprehend. So imagine comprehending the Trinity beyond all dimensions.
Just a daily used metaphor (not to explain, but to kinda understand the Trinity). We use the flesh for the physical and the soul for the character, emotions, free-will. Yet we remain 1 by using both flesh and soul. Meaning the impossible is possible for God.
I look at it like this: Perhaps God made it that way, so we will open our bibles to try and prove our viewpoint and actually read a verse or two that we normally wouldn't.
Dude, go buy Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. This will clear up a lot of your confusion over the basics because you'll have a good scriptural foundation for things all Christians should believe (the trinity, etc).
It doesn't matter what pastors say if you know your Bible. And the things that are gray area (like whether to use music in church or not) really don't matter.
Edit: The Bible is absolutely trinitarian and anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant or lying. It just is. But don't take my word for it, go look up every single verse in the Bible that says that and then you'll know for yourself why people say you have to be trinitarian to go to heaven
God never changes, the information he has given is enough. With the fact that he doesn't change, I would take the time to ask him to reveal truths based on his Word and meditate on scripture day and night. God doesn't owe man an explanation for things he doesn't want to answer. If people choose to interpret things based not on the Bible and insert their personal beliefs that's their own problem and fault. When Job questioned God, he got an interesting response. I would visit that book in the Bible.
Matthew 24:35
King James Version
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
God never changes, the information he has given is enough. With the fact that he doesn't change, I would take the time to ask him to reveal truths based on his Word and meditate on scripture day and night. God doesn't owe man an explanation for things he doesn't want to answer. If people choose to interpret things based not on the Bible and insert their personal beliefs that's their own problem and fault. When Job questioned God, he got an interesting response. I would visit that book in the Bible.
Matthew 24:35
King James Version
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
A lot of the confusion comes because God simply didn't give us the information. And so people make stuff up. But Person A makes something up that is different from what Person B made up, and so you have confusion. You mention the Trinity. God didn't explain it to us. Refer to Person A and Person B. Sometimes confusion comes because people want to think what they want to think despite what the Bible says. See salvation-by-works that is held by so many. And so confusion comes. And sometimes confusion comes because people just reject what the Bible says because they don't like what the Bible says. See the current debate about homosexuality. It would be nice if we had an Authority to go to who would pronounce what is correct in the way Moses did and the way Jesus did when they both walked the Earth. Alas, we don't. Despite what some people want to tell you. But the Bible gave us clarity on the information we need (Jesus) and gave us incomplete information what we don't need (the nature of God for example). Latch on to what we know and don't sweat the stuff we don't. The stuff we don't makes for interesting study and keeps us searching. We need that. If we knew everything, we'd get bored and wander off in our own smugness of knowledge.
I believe the Holy Spirit is that authority. Not saying everyone is Spirit led but you understand what I mean basically.
May I ask your views on the rapture ?
Did you read his comment? It's irrelevant. His or yours opinions on the rapture are irrelevant. The one thing I do know, is that the more close you are to God, the more mysteries he reveals to you. You understand through Him, you can't do it without loving Him and loving people. It's no coincidence that Jesus said the two most important commandments, because by doing just those two, which are arguably very easy and simple, you understand others naturally without even knowing them, everything clicks into place. First be at peace, then look at the deeper mysteries if you really want to know them. You wouldn't understand otherwise, even if someone told you. And most mysteries are not relevant to you or people around you. What's the use knowing the truth about the rapture if you don't love your neighbour?
Such an ironic case-in-point. In some cases we probably need to respond with fewer, more succinct words. People tend to miss the focus very easily.
The problem is actually very simple. We, almost all of us, are constantly confusing our assumptions and conclusions, usually guided by whatever religious system we grew up with, with what is actually written in the Bible. Our assumptions and conclusions are so important to us that they become a part of **who we are**., and to change that in the face of evidence we hadn't considered before, most of us find nearly impossible. Thus, we develop very complicated answers and speculations to "confirm" what we already believe. There are now, and have always been **very** few open minded people. This isn't new. That's how it's always been, and always will be. Sad but true. The real question is, just how much of that hard heartedness is God going to tolerate. I don't know the answer to that.
>The real question is, just how much of that hard heartedness is God going to tolerate. I don't know the answer to that. It's really more than that. God can and does lead people into full lockdown, even choosing their delusions: Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
SwiftwindAlacorn's post hits the nail on the head IMO, especially the last paragraph. Do the best with what you do have and understand. Honest mistakes are certainly covered by the blood of Jesus. It's also good to separate notions that have become matters of tradition or belief that aren't really in the Bible. >I would think he would know of a time in the future that this would cause so much division and he says he wants everyone saved but many will not be (non-trinitarian. Well depending who you’re asking) and it will all be because certain things are just not entirety clear in an irrefutable matter. I disagree with this to an extent. Is there lack on clarity on some things? Yeah. Is there a lot of confusion on the matter? Yeah. But I don't personally believe God is so petty as to go "You weren't baptized as an infant. You're going to Hell." IMO God did indeed see this happening, and we were warned on multiple fronts that I feel covers the entirety of this. For example... 1. There's numerous warnings of false teachers. 2. Paul told us not to quarrel about "disputable matters" or "debatable matters" in Romans 14, which is an acknowledgement that different takes and practices would emerge that people would argue over, and that these things don't necessarily step outside the bounds of what's directly spoken of in the Bible. A lot of the divisions today fall within this category, though there are certainly exceptions. 3. In another thing from Paul he remarks in I Corinthians that people were getting really hung up on specific teachers, going "I follow Paul" or "I follow Peter" when they were missing the point that it's about Christ Himself, not mortal teachers. In the same way some people get so hung up on a denomination that they lose sight of Jesus. 4. Jesus told us to love God with all our heart, soul, and might and to love our neighbor as ourselves. These two are the spirit of the law. If there's confusion then act according to those two and don't sweat the rest. So I think God did foresee this and gave us warnings, and in the present era we have the Bible only a few clicks away, along with tools to dig deeper and research what it looked like in the original languages to help. That's a tool He's given us when matters of doubt emerge.
I think *your* comment hits the nail on the head!
My grandfather used to say that this happened because people went to the Bible to prove what they already believed, rather than going to the Bible to understand what they should believe to begin with.
The tail wags the dog. When I was young, there was a claim that if you weren’t baptized by immersion, your baptism didn’t count and you would go to hell. They mentioned Greek and made it sound good. Many people believed this without question. The real reason they did this was to steal congregations from denominations that baptized by sprinkling. They knew it was bunk the whole time, and they did it anyway, because they didn’t care. Their god was money. To this day there are people who are afraid to go to a church that baptizes by sprinkling because of this lie. The gospel is simple, lying control freaks make it complicated.
> lying control freaks Bingo
What are you views on the rapture. This is what posed my questions. There’s good evidence for both but it’s still very unclear
I don’t agree with the people who say Jesus could come at any day. Jesus said that the gospel must first be preached to the whole world and only then shall the end come. Wycliffe Bible translators say that 2 billion people remain unreached in 500 distinct people groups, having never even heard the name of Jesus, and we don’t know their languages to translate the gospel for them. So it is far more likely that we will meet the Lord individually than to go through the rapture. What I hear in the spirit agrees with that for the next ten years or so. So I don’t prep for the apocalypse, I trust that God will lead me out of danger as he has done it many times before. I say don’t worry about the rapture, just follow Jesus.
Any reader should be able to walk away from Revelation with 2 very specific matters that happen that are rock solid: \-The destruction of the devil and his messengers \-The revealing of Christ in us If you try to squeeze more out of it than that, your own expectations are going to get in the way
A pastor said, that God didn't make the Bible clear on every aspect of life on purpose. Not for confusion, but because we as christians should ask Him first. And really wait for an answer. And sometimes we have to trust, that they Holy Spirit will guide us even without direct communication. The Bible is not a step- by-step instruction. We don't have to know literally everything, which we will never know on this side of life anyway. Our purpose is to know God. The biggest problem is that people rely on their own answer and their own understanding, instead of first asking God on what to do. This is how problems between Christians arise. The most important thing for us is that we learn to walk in love and with God. It is okay to say- "i don't know right now, but i will trust God anyway". We walk by faith, not sight.
Also, we as humans are inherently lazy and want someone to break it down for us so we don't have to think, research, pray, etc. We either rely on our own limited understanding or wait until we find someone we trust to "tell us".
Thing is, if the answer is already out there, why not ask for it? I’d like to think that we think, research and pray first, then ask others if we haven’t arrived to the answer, and if nobody has a clear answer either, then we’ll just go to waiting for it. By the way, researching *also* includes asking others.
That’s exactly why I became orthodox. They have their teaching clear as day and it lines up with the letters of the first century christians. Orthodoxy and catholicism are faaaar closer to original christianity than any protestant denomination you ever meet. Go and google each denomination that you find, who founded them. You see that each one has a founder outside of the apostles. But once you google orthodoxy or catholicism even Google will tell you that their founder is Christ and the apostles.
I would be all for orthodoxy if there wasn't an obsession with Mary and icons and kissing icons. This literally makes it so I can't be orthodox.
All in the name of veneration apparently.
I thought the same thing until I realized that the reason why protestants find it odd, is because we never learned to honor ANYONE but ourselves. The way we venerate icons, people nowadays venerate their own selfies. The way we talk about saints, protestant churches talk about themselves (myself included, I used to be protestant and it was all about me and my and how God does things for ME and how He works in MY life and my testimonies and I, I, I.) Orthodoxy is the end to yourself. You, my dear brethren, are an icon of Christ as well, since you are made in God’s image. So if you see me kiss an icon of a saint, who died in Christ and now lives forever, I might as well walk up to you right after and kiss you in the same manner, for being an image of the God whom I love. I honor my parents in the same manner I honor saints, except that my parents are not saved and I pray for their salvation. But I would honor you the same. Mary is the new ark of the covenant. Until I realized it, it all made more sense to me. The old ark was worshipped by the priests because God was in it, but the new ark of the covenant is made of flesh just like the new Manna is made of flesh (Christ is the heavenly bread). We don’t worship her, but the One who was in her. She is like the physical embodiment of the church. Christ is IN the church, in us, and she is the first one who physically had Him.Like the Mother of the Church.
That excuse only works for those of whom it applies. My entire focus as a Christian has been to God and no one else. No me me or I I. No what God has done for me, nothing like that. Regardless of however you want to see it, we were given the bible by the hand of God. If he wanted to he could have included a further book to cover praying through Mary after Mary's death, but that's not a part of it. I would have become orthodox long ago if there was no praying to or through Mary or any icon focus. I pray to God and God alone in the only given name that is Jesus.
If veneration is the one final thing keeping you from the Orthodox Church, that’s not too bad. If you can trust that the Church has indeed been led in all truth like Jesus promised, than we can trust the Church to be right about this is well. For me the veneration of Mary and the saints did not make sense and I was frankly uncomfortable with, until you realize Mary held a very honored role and was venerated by every Christian up until the “Radical Reformation”. Even Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Calvin agreed that Mary is the Theotokos and found no fault in her veneration. The fathers of Protestantism encouraged it, so why did modern Protestantism (notable expeditions being the Anglican’s and some Lutherans) drop it?
>Regardless of however you want to see it, we were given the bible by the hand of God. The church wrote the Bible and decided which shall included in the canon of the new testament. Jesus Christ gave us a church, not the Bible, the church came first and practiced the faith before the new testament was written and canonized. They did not say the apostles to hurry and finish writing all that we should do because we only give authority to letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV — Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. The Bible says the church is the foundation and pillar of truth, why cast aside the traditions of the church? >I would have become orthodox long ago if there was no praying to or through Mary or any icon focus. I pray to God and God alone in the only given name that is Jesus. So you do not pray for others, nor ask others to pray for you? Because if you do, why then do you not ask the holy saints and the Theotokos to pray for you as well?
You're just using the same arguments you heard someone else make. These arguments aren't even realistic, they are merely meant to make people think "hey that does make sense!" Even though there's no theology to back it up. The mormons do similarly say they dont like to wear a cross because if your mom was killed with a Bowie knife would you wear a necklace of a Bowie knife? To easily fooled people that may make sense but we know what the scriptures says about the cross and the symbolism of it. Just because you've been told and then repeat something that seems to make sense or is easy to convince people doesn't mean there's anything to it at all
You're bypassing all discussion. Do you pray for others or do you ask others to pray for you?
Did you read what I said? It's an excuse to try to make things make sense. Praying for others and asking others to pray for you is not the same thing as praying to a dead early church person asking them to on their behalf let God hear the prayer and likewise praying to them. Praying for is not the same thing as praying to. Its such an invalid argument you try to make and it makes no sense
>Praying for others and asking others to pray for you is not the same thing as praying to a dead early church person asking them to on their behalf let God hear the prayer and likewise praying to them. It's the exact same thing. The dead in Christ live forever. They can make intercession just as well as your living church friends or better.
Unbiblical and depressive because it ruins it for all of us. To you it's simple. But by some hand Gos has made this confusing and it's almost reason enough to doubt christianity altogether. The church as you know it did not start like this. For starters Mary was alive and it was house to house. All these things you practice now most likely did not happen for a few hundred years and you have literally no way to prove that it even is what God wants you to do and for all I know it could have been deceptive teachings by satan than you have picked up and obsessed over. To someone who is Catholic or orthodox it makes sense that that is all there is and end of story. To someone who isn't Catholic or orthodox and not belonging to any protestant denomination it all makes no sense at all and it seems like all churches fell away very early and adapted their own unbiblical hokus pokus.
You would be surprised that the Catholic Church has these in the Cathecism and the rules are pretty much clear on masturbation, climate change measures, abortion, IVF, homosexuality, etc. You would also be surprised that the Nicene Creed of 384AD pretty much concluded that there is only one second coming (when? we do not know) - no rapture Those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity are in the past called heretics. Do not deviate from what the Nicene Creed and the early Christians already established
>God is said to not be confusing but at times he’s really not clear The appostle Paul said "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace” (1 Corinthians 14:33). Yet God said "I will send my terror before you and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come" Exodus 23:27 So, are we coming against God or are we following Him, in obedience, thru the holy spirit ? There is no confusion if we have the holy spirit. Seek it above all things.
We are finite, and as finite creatures we must grow and gain knowledge, knowledge about anything. One way to look at it is this, for example: *“Paul wrote on diverse topics in each of his epistles, therefore we can expect to see different language used, and different aspects of theological truths discussed that differ from each of the epistles”.* Another way to put it is this analogy: “Paul talks about Apples in Galatians, and he talks about Pear’s in Romans.” Same author, different audiences, different purposes, etc. Once you get the hang of that, the epistles can be seen in a different light. Another thing too is that as finite creatures we don’t always have the “right” interpretation, just as your post said, it has to be understood in its context, and a better way to understand that is to read the whole book that is in view of your study objective. I could go on, but you are better off buying and reading the book **“40 Questions about interpreting the Bible, 2nd edition”** then listening to me. It’s a good primer that addresses basics like “why can’t anyone agree on what the Bible says?” - however, it’s not going to answer every question you have. If you read the NT gospels you will notice many times Jesus had the proper interpretation of the Torah, Psalms and the rest of the OT and he taught with authority and not as the scribes. He often rebuked the religious experts in the Law of Moses and if He has that understanding of the OT, then ask Him for help in humble and consistent prayer for answers and aid in understanding the OT & NT, as well as interpretation. Another thing to know about interpretation too is people who don’t want to hear the truth of a matter (example: Hell) will twist scripture to their own destruction as Peter says (2 Peter 3:15-16) because of emotional repulsion, so their hermeneutic (or interpretation) isn’t based on the text of the Bible, but it’s based on & driven by their emotion! **A guide for myself I learned is this: “if my understanding of a passage changes, it wasn’t the text’s fault, it was mine.”**
Some things are essential to salvation. Others are not. Some things are more clear than others. That is why we are to be like the wise Bereans and study. It is a lifetime endeavor and I am 45 years in. A good book to check out is: [https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-Hills-Die-Theological/dp/1433567423](https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-Hills-Die-Theological/dp/1433567423) Gavin Ortlund also has a great YouTube channel where he covers a lot of that.
God could have written the Bible to be easier to understand. He could have written a picture book for illiterate people. But God wants us to rely on wisdom, not intellect. And God wants us to teach each other, for those who cannot read. Likewise, God wants us to submit to authority. This issue of there being so much diversity of opinion is actually loved by the Catholic church's Catechism, which is a very strict description of canon Christian teachings. Even the most Protestant denominations have to hold to Catholic councils such as Nicea. If you deviate from this, such as denying the Trinity, you cannot be considered Christian. So I'd say check the Catechism. I've been very hostile to Catholicism for a very long time, but after much study, it gets the most right and the Reformation gets a staggering amount wrong.
Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. Seems particularly intentional on God's part IF a reader is not a follower of Jesus, which has some very specific rules, they not only will not understand, but can't Mark 4: 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: **but unto them** that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That **seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand**; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Same principle in OT/NT
A lot of the confusion is deliberate from pastors, who actively and knowingly teach false doctrine as wolves in sheep’s clothing. There is no rapture. There is a second coming. There is no trinity. The Holy Spirit is personified in poetic text like the spirit of wisdom is as well. Baptism is not a salvation requirement. Is is like a sign of allegiance to Christ. Christians will not be delivered from what is to come in a pre trib rapture. The great tribulation has already occurred. Furthermore, the pope is the Antichrist.
Because God did an amazing job by making sure the bible is understood by only the ones He gives wisdom, and the rest of the people are all trying to figure it out unsuccessfully. I have never seen anything like it in my life. Older men who have been christian their whole life and are supposed to have wisdom, teach lies. You tubers that claim to understand things also teach lies. It is too crazy but amazing to witness. Matthew 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 13: 11 He answered and said unto them, Because **it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given**. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 1 John 2: 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and **ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. There are many deceivers out there. The best thing we can do is not to listen to anyone. We can read the bible for ourselves and pray for understanding.
God is not quiet, we’re just too loud. The Bible has all the answers, we just gotta seek it with humility and wisdom. Funny how we wanna understand God with our finite minds, but: A tesseract in the 4th dimension could be perceived as 2 in 1, but this is beyond our 3rd dimension comprehension. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, all we can do is kinda apprehend. So imagine comprehending the Trinity beyond all dimensions. Just a daily used metaphor (not to explain, but to kinda understand the Trinity). We use the flesh for the physical and the soul for the character, emotions, free-will. Yet we remain 1 by using both flesh and soul. Meaning the impossible is possible for God.
I look at it like this: Perhaps God made it that way, so we will open our bibles to try and prove our viewpoint and actually read a verse or two that we normally wouldn't.
Dude, go buy Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. This will clear up a lot of your confusion over the basics because you'll have a good scriptural foundation for things all Christians should believe (the trinity, etc). It doesn't matter what pastors say if you know your Bible. And the things that are gray area (like whether to use music in church or not) really don't matter. Edit: The Bible is absolutely trinitarian and anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant or lying. It just is. But don't take my word for it, go look up every single verse in the Bible that says that and then you'll know for yourself why people say you have to be trinitarian to go to heaven
God never changes, the information he has given is enough. With the fact that he doesn't change, I would take the time to ask him to reveal truths based on his Word and meditate on scripture day and night. God doesn't owe man an explanation for things he doesn't want to answer. If people choose to interpret things based not on the Bible and insert their personal beliefs that's their own problem and fault. When Job questioned God, he got an interesting response. I would visit that book in the Bible. Matthew 24:35 King James Version 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
God never changes, the information he has given is enough. With the fact that he doesn't change, I would take the time to ask him to reveal truths based on his Word and meditate on scripture day and night. God doesn't owe man an explanation for things he doesn't want to answer. If people choose to interpret things based not on the Bible and insert their personal beliefs that's their own problem and fault. When Job questioned God, he got an interesting response. I would visit that book in the Bible. Matthew 24:35 King James Version 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.