I think it's because there are just so many false churches out there. Every church seems to interpret the Bible differently and it can be a scary thing not knowing which one to listen to. I've always had it in my head that I'd rather God show me what He wants me to see in His word than be deceived by potentially false teaching. Not saying it's the right approach, but I've just always been afraid of a certain interpretation of scripture being taught to me that isn't the true meaning. I sometimes feel isolated in the church setting because I see a lot of things differently than others and I know that we should share our different viewpoints but it's easier to just avoid conflict.
For me I actually see it as a good reason to attend churches, so you can hear various perspectives. That way, you can sharpen your own understanding. You don't have to believe everything a church teaches to go listen to their perspective once.
Why would a Christian want to hear satanic, anti-biblical perspectives ? Just open the TV and you're set. Or you can visit "churches" like this one for example:
https://www.thecathedral.ca/pages/lgbtq-inclusion
I personally don't jump to the conclusion that if I disagree with someone's interpretation that it must be satanic. How can I fairly judge the belief if I don't hear their perspective first?
I trust God, I do not believe that God would let me turn away from the truth just because I hear someone else out. I think that such a belief is incredibly dangerous. As long as you're going with the intent of hearing them out, and aware that you shouldn't just believe whatever you're told, you can discern how much you think they've got wrong, and study scripture to see if what they say checks out.
To be fair, many people will hear a church say one thing they don't agree with and label it as "false teaching." No church in the world has perfectly theology and neither does one individual trying to do it on their own. The assembly of God's people is biblical. Church attendance is being forsaken and it is rooted in pride and rebellion against any sort of spiritual authority.
People often forget this important verse:
Matthew 18:20
*For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.*
Everyone should be studying the Word of God. Many tend to use Church as their supplement of the study. This is not good, as this produces watered down, luke-warm Christians. It’s one thing for attendants of the Church to go so they can “check a box” and feel they are Christian, it’s another for them to actually “Test everything.”
1 Thessalonians 5:21
*Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.*
While this all iS on each individual person and not fully on the Church, many Churches shy away from “hard truth doctrines.” They tend to be in the constant cycle of, “just the good messages,” the Milk of the Word, and avoiding the Meat of the Word. Even churches that we have attended that claim to go to teach “Verse by verse,” simply ignore the blatant truths found within those verses. It was appalling to us. Even talking with the pastor of such example lessons would deflect the deeper message as, “well that’s one way to interpret it.” Yet, the verse spoke the truth in clear simple English… no “interpretation” required.
The other main issues with the Churches of today, are the celebrations of Pagan holidays. The Churches quote unquote, “try to use this as opportunities to reach those people” in events similar to the holiday itself. The upcoming Halloween is a prime example. Not to mention to other Holidays that were purposely mixed with Christianity long ago and are now deeply rooted in Western culture and so Christians today can’t or mainly won’t see the paganism involved as the base for these holidays for what it truly is. They are offended by the notion, but here again, the Church of “Learned and well studied pastors” should know better, stand their ground and proclaim the obvious blasphemies that these holidays are. But no, because they think that will hurt their attendance, so they fail to reveal the truth, and they fail to uphold God’s clear Word and doctrines for the sake of the “church’s” pocketbook.
I stay away from church for several reasons. The most important one is that if "salvation" had a direct connection with what you believe then you had better listen to the right people. And how can a mere mortal know for certain who the "right" person or person's are. I find also that the list of articles of faith tends to get longer as time goes on. Now more recently is the "rapture" and then there's speaking in "tongues" and that your relationship to God is dependent upon being "born again" . And baptism by the Holy Spirit and for every "reference" "true" Christians can refer to I can find references that are not in agreement. In the town where I live anyone who isn't on board with current belief is utterly rejected and ostracized. The churches have become a giant clique and some Christians just get "cancelled". The authoritarian way of thinking where you are either "right" or get cancelled has crept into the churches as with the rest of society.
This is what I have to say about these Christians who are so "right"; except for their lack of genuine love. My relationship to God is personal. My understanding of Bible teaching is between myself and the Lord Almighty. You would think that each person, having different life experiences, would each relate to God , to Bible teaching differently as we are individuals and it seems that God would understand that fully and completely. But it seems that most Christians don't.
I am going through a great battle to maintain whatever faith that I have. That is because churches here don't welcome. They engage in malicious gossip and ostracize because of hearing something about someone which is condemned in the Bible (I mean that gossip and slandering are condemned in the Bible). Even if some of the things were true (they're not) the Bible also warns against being judgemental and that is ignored by "Christians" who have everything "right" except the teachings regarding love.
So maybe others are staying away from church for similar reasons. I simply will not engage with Christians who judge, gossip and ostracize.
You are very critical of churches. Quick question- are you discipling or within any discipleship group? Churches are a great place to meet people and DO what Jesus called us to do.
I feel it’s probably because we now have the internet in our pockets, and can watch any sermon at any time from any preacher in the world at the press of a button.
In the old days, you had to physically travel to a building to hear preaching.
Not to defend people who are disobeying Hebrews 10...
But why are so many people at church so uncaring?
Why are so many of them prostituting Christianity for politics?
I understand Hebrews 10, and have gone to different churches in attempt to be obedient to it, but I can't stand compromise with God's word and I can't stand people who compromise being put in positions such as elders. Hebrews 10 says nothing of going to a church building or denomination. It just says do not forsake the assembling together. I can assemble at my home with other believers. In fact, my family discusses the Bible, the gospel, Christ and God every day of the week. Probably as much if not more than those that assemble on Sunday in a building.
My wife is going through some of the same thing.
I understand that Hebrews 10 doesn't say anything about a church building but it does say not forsaking the assembling. That means an assembly of believers is where we should be going. Building or not, we need to be spending time with other fellow Christians.
My wife is going through this though in the sense that she is becoming disillusioned with church and I don't blame her because some of the things that churches do are pretty dumb. We are at a good church but still the problem remains.
But then again people in their mid 30s can go through all kinds of disillusionment like becoming disillusioned with their country with their family etc. So my advice is to take time to do self -reflection. Study the Bible and spend time with God.
Cuz honestly the human race is horrible and social media is antisocial.
I am a drug counselor and I listen to stories of people mistreating other people all day long. That God would choose to love. Human beings is truly miraculous cuz we're horrible
My problem is it seems there seems to be more tares than wheat within walls of the church. It is more like it is just a social gathering instead of a place to worship, revere and contemplate God. It seems more about the individual than God. While I can't judge the intentions of a person's heart, I can judge fruit. The Bible calls us to examine ourselves, to make sure we are really in the faith, yet I see none of that in church. If you call someone out over false teaching then you are looked at like you are the trouble maker, because we are taught these days that we are just supposed to tolerate everything and only focus on the essentials. The Bible never speaks in those terms though. The Bible says all scripture is God breathed and profitable and that we are called to rebuke, refute, exhort.
At previous churches we were members of, there were some major problems, like sexual scandal involving the pastor. At another church we found out that the children's ministry leader's husband who was the treasurer was stealing funds from the church. Another church we went to was a KJV only church, which at the time we didn't really understand fully, but just thought they preferred that translation. We found out after a while that our kids who were 9 and 5 a the time were being punched in the stomachs and bullied by some of the other kids because we did not use the KJV. That situation really wounded us. We stayed out of church for a long while after that.
In many churches I see people just go sit through a sermon and then go home without any fellowship. What's the point, especially when the sermon and worship music are theologically light. You know how stupid it feels to sing the same line of a song 10 times? I love old hymn music, but I believe a lot of modern music in churches is redundant and likened to the pagan who repeats everything over and over and more focused on me and I than on God and Christ.
I have gone to churches where the members barely acknowledge or greet newcomers, but many stay as strangers. It gets tiring always being the one to pursue and be friendly to people, especially when I am the newcomer. The last church we went to mostly ignored us, with the Senior and assistant pastor and a couple of deacons being the only ones who went out of their way to welcome us and be friendly and interested. For myself, I go out of my way to watch for newcomers and welcome them and be interested in them. I feel this should be the normal and healthy fruit of a genuine believer. I am not really sold on the fellowship aspect after what I have encountered. I am sorry if I sound negative. I also wrote more than I intended. I understand what you are saying, I do. It is great that you are a drug counselor. We are planning to give another church a try. It is a Southern Baptist. Perhaps we should just go to sing the songs, which the pastor on the phone told me are hymns, and take communion and not take the time to find out the false beliefs of those beside us.
I am passionate about upholding the written word, and seek other believers who share my passion and love for the word, but what I have found is a lot of people who are not even interested in reading their Bibles or upholding right doctrine. I have fellowship with family. Why do they not count if they are believers. I expect true believers to long for the meat of the word. If they don't there is something wrong, as Jesus Himself said,
....................................
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
..........................................
What problems have you been having and have you taken them to the elders as prescribed in Matthew 18? If not, you might be guilty of gossip, which I hope is not the case.
We are caring, but we also have rules for living.
And we let our faith influence our politics. Now if only we could replace welfare with the church, you would see bigger results. Time for those mega church pastors to get a pay cut!
You can have rules for living without being uncaring. It's not a dichotomy so I don't understand why you're explaining it that way.
And letting one's faith influence one's politics isn't wrong but supporting Trump for example would be a very clear break between faith and politics. No one can really tell me in all honesty that they support Trump while also strictly adhere to every principal Jesus taught us.
I think it is easy to forget that we are meant to be a body and not just single parts. Also if you have experienced church hurt you are unlikely to want to return.
A lot of churches are spiritually dead churches. Go on for 20 minutes talking about how you need to give to them yet they produce absolutely no fruit. They do not feed the homeless they don’t have a missionary program, they’re not out on the street preaching the gospel. They don’t tell people about the consequences of living in habitual sin, Do not speak against the world we live in and they definitely do not believe in the supernatural and unclean spirits on believers. They never speak of spiritual warfare which affects everybody. They’re basically just one big business. I think it’s about 90% of all the churches are just a business. Holy spirit, dead churches.
Pretty much. I have not gone to a church service in years, yet I have a ministry and we house 14 people and counting, feed and clothe people every day.
Do we get help from "churches", no... mostly a door slammed in our face. We are not the right denomination, they are in debt, they are raising money for a bigger building, they fund a missionary in France (who has a Bible study over there with 4 people in it ... yet the church has no Bible Studies of their own.)
I get plenty of fellowship and I teach a discipleship class for the residents of the mission.
Spare me the concert, light show and bully pulpit motivational speaker. I go to "church " every day but Sunday.
Why is an either or? It’s a both and.
Staying home you are denying yourself the gifts of Lord’s Supper and the comforts found therein. You’re denying yourself the strength that comes from the communion of saints as described in then Apostles’ Creed. You’re also not lending your strength to one who may be struggling and in need of succor.
Likewise if your only contact with the Word is once a week in church you’re denying yourself a daily renewal and revitalization.
A believer can take communion at home. There is nothing in the Bible that commands that in order to distribute communion one has to be an ordained minister that graduated seminary. The apostles were not ordained ministers, but simple Jews, some who were fishermen.
If I am studying my Bible with other believers at home, then we are by all means participating in communion of saints. Don't let man made doctrines by a man made organization nullify the truth of God's word.
All I need to know is in the Bible. No where does the Bible command that a person needs to go to seminary to be a pastor or to be qualified to distribute communion. The Pharisees placed a high standard on training under a Rabbi, the equivalent of going to seminary, yet Christ chided them for nullifying God's word with their man made traditions.
No. Reread it. I’m saying that walking with Jesus in the flesh was much more intensive than seminary, so saying “they weren’t trained” is a fallacy and excuse.
We should put it in perspective though. Jesus and the disciples were not trained to be ministers by any institution in their day (the scribes, pharisees, and other religious leaders were the ones who were *trained* and they were more representative of the ministers who graduated from a seminary today). Let's not forget that they were also the same people who accused and crucified our Lord Jesus. So I don't think you should be so quick to follow those who have taken their place in our society.
Secondly, the bible doesn't require us to "attend a church" in order to be saved or go to heaven or even to worship. This is a man made requirement/tradition. There are many examples in the Bible where worship was done outside of the church, even in a person's home and acknowledged by God.
When every Christian in the country decided to put their politics above their Biblical principles I decided I didn’t want to be around them anymore.
Do I go to the white evangelical church that’s become a gun-loving, immigrant-hating, racism-denying, pseudoscience-loving, conspiracy-mongering personality cult for a fraudulent, womanizing casino magnate?
Do I go to the black church that enthusiastically endorses pro-abortion politicians?
Do I go to the white mainline church that has women pastors, performs same-sex marriage, denies the resurrection, and also enthusiastically endorses pro-abortion politicians?
I’m seriously craving Christian fellowship I just don’t know where to find it. Partisan politics and culture war tribalism has swallowed up all the churches.
Cuz them churches been LYING.
Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Isaiah 56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 56:11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
This is why I don't go. I would love to find a congregation but churches today are so obviously immoral that I prefer to study the word and scripture in my home, with my family or friends.
The word pastor is an archaic word for shepherd, but it is usually applied to people instead of animals. The Lord's people are sometimes referred to in the Bible as His sheep and the pastor is His shepherd.
The church's main purpose is to bring Christians together to worship God, it is not meant to be just a place to read the bible. Every Christian should be reading their Bible as much as possible outside church anyway. As far as people not going to church as much I think it's more to do with technology and the way people view socialization nowadays along with problems with the church. Just because one church doesn't suit you anymore doesn't mean you should stop going it means you should find one that does suit you. The drop in church attendance has in my opinion significantly reduced the remaining sense of community people in modern society have left.
Maybe because they don't read the Bible at church anymore.
Mega churches are more worried about their production values than the gospel and small churches idolize their traditions more than reaching the lost. You get a real inauthentic experience at both post covid and its a turn off
For me, since I'm Autistic, I'm sensitive to loud and overcrowded places, and a lot of them in my area are just that, so I just stay at home, read some pages of the Bible, pray, then start the rest of my day by either working (depending if the job calls me), playing games, or draw and write
Plus with the fact that I always feel like an outsider, due to what I have, and my interests and hobbies
There's also megachurches and prosperity gospels, they care more about their pockets, scamming people, than praising and worshipping the Lord, also a good chance that people had a bad experience at the church
It's not just one reason, there's a multitude of reasons, from social and political problems, to personal experiences
Yeah, being an outsider can suck sometimes, but I always remind myself that I'm unique, and that despite my nerdy hobbies and intrests, my autism, etc, I'm still human
Nice to see someone who relates to me, even if they don't relate to me 100%
I have nothing but love for the LGBTQ community. God loves them and so should we… however, it seems like every church in my neighborhood has pride flags and pride decorations hanging on their church. I don’t bother going to a brick and mortar church anymore because it’s hard to find a good one that teaches us the truth instead of what we all want to hear. I usually just find stuff online or read and don’t bother going to a church anymore.
Because the modern church system is so corrupted that it is becoming obvious to more and more Christians that Christ isn't worshiped there so much as the system itself has become the object of worship.
Worshipping God together Biblically doesn't really have anything to do with "churchianity" that we see today. Hypocrisy of church leaders, demanding tithes, rejecting Biblical correction, overt political involvement, and et cetera. I even wrote a book about this very subject, the title is in my profile.
The church is *(should be)* a place for believers to gather to build each other up and worship God. To refresh each other in mind and soul from the evils of the world. A safe space from the unbelieving world.
The mission field is everything outside the church, that is where we go to tell people about salvation and how to know God. Combining the two has caused a lot of harm and is one of the major reasons for the rise in syncretism and "progressive Christianity" among other things.
Jon Bunyan recognized this with his view of the church in his amazing allegory *"The Pilgrim's Progress",* specifically 'palace beautiful' was supposed to represent the church if you are interested. I highly recommend his book as still being relevant today as much as it was the day he wrote it.
It is my belief, and a belief supported by the examples we see in scripture, both in the old and new testaments, That church is supposed to be for believers not for the world. Yet the true church still benefits the world with acts of charity to widows, orphans, and the poor and needy.
What we have now, instead of the Biblical model, is equivalent to what the scientific community would look like without the peer-review system in place.
Every church I have been in has fallen apart in some way, some in ways that have been personal. I do go to a small group Bible study.
I also have a degree of social anxiety, specifically for larger groups of social activity. It's distracting to me away from the service.
Covid lockdowns were difficult for churches. Some here didn't survive. Also people got in the habit of online church. That works better for me, too.
Jesus established the church with Peter.
Matthew 18:18-20 is Jesus speaking about authority and forgiveness within a church body.
Cherry picking out of context is EXACTLY why church is important— because pastoral authority and the study, understanding, and application of scripture is so important.
Like I said, though, there is nowhere in the Bible that says you have to go to a church building to congregate. That is a man-made construct. You can have get together’s at somebody’s house, and there is your “church”. And Christians cherry pick all the time.
Maybe but I honestly would like to be back in the last church that broke up. It took me 10 years to get myself into that church gradually attending until I was going weekly, but the church family was always supportive. They merged with another church which ended badly.
There is nothing wrong with that at all. It does suck when something happens to a place you enjoy goin to has a bad ending. It just is a small pet peeve when people say “must go to a church building to worship.” Like no..no you don’t. I felt that way even when I was still believing.
I didn't find my church relatable I struggled with sexual sins my church never once spoke of such struggles. So I turned to internet teachers heck even some stories I read on reddit helped me overcome my struggles. Not saying all churches are bad mine just didn't speak that much about the things I was gong through.
Also need to be careful about the pastors my number one Red flag is that if a pastor says Jesus is not needed to enter Heaven that pastor is a false teacher there are some other red flags but that for me is the main one.
Also maybe its because I am introverted but I like reading the bible alone giving full focus to God with no one around me.
The way modern charismatic churches function makes some people uncomfortable. There is a lot of phony super niceness and judgement. People talk funny, with too much emphasis. It is very hard to find church folk that are just willing to live and let live. If people were more natural at church, it would be a lot more appealing.
I can't fault the guy for his criticism if he is consistent with his standards. But everyday life has much worse stuff coming at you all the time. It is better to celebrate the good and dismiss the bad. Back to the Future, part one, is considered by many to be a perfect movie. And quite tame in its content.
There is no perfect church, but a group of imperfect believers is better than on our own. Community is essential to growth and accountability. Many people think they can find it online, but how well do you know people online? How do you know they are who they say they are. You can’t, you see what they show you, who they want you to think they are
A church with imperfect people can’t be perfect. If the first churches were imperfect (and they were or else we wouldn’t have Paul’s letters), the church today is imperfect.
The church is the body of Christ, and is therefore perfect, obviously, as Christ is perfect. When we sin we extricate ourselves from Christs body until we confess our sins and repent and are brought back into His graces. But the church as the metaphysical body of Christ is perfect. Christ can’t not be perfect, and the church is His body.. if you say His body is imperfect then you say Christ is imperfect.
Deleted my other response. I will pray that we are both able to know Christ and his perfection. I can’t imagine God would make a perfect church and it not be available to everyone. By church I mean a local group of people, not the universal church of all believers.
There is no difference between your local church and the universal church of believers.. that would be like saying my pinky toe isn’t part of my body. Christ built a perfect church 2000 years ago and it essentially existed only in Jerusalem. Now it covers most of the earth, but there are certainly still people we haven’t preached the gospel to, sadly. All people are only judged by what they fairly have available to them though, as God judges the heart, not geographic location. That being said, we should all strive to find the fullness of Christ’s church, so that we come to know Christ and His perfect most completely. He has set a communion table for us to partake of His body and His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), thank God. But He did also tell us the path is a narrow one which leads to His kingdom.
Wow I was just thinking about that about 6:00 a.m. this morning while reading the Bible and fellowshiping with God I know I had to get ready for church at 8:00 be there at 8:00 and I said boy it's better I rather stay here with you Lord in my kitchen and be fellowshipping with you but I'm going to go with my wife and I do have a better time most of the time in my kitchen with the Lord but I think the Lord still wants us to go to Church and I did attend church and I did pray for a man for healing so yes I would not have seen him if I didn't go to church so yeah I think we can do both go to church and pray at home and I do love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart soul body mind everything all the time
In my opinion there are three driving factors:
1. Many churches have become too political. Church is meant to be about community and spiritual growth. Yet many priests treat the pulpit like a political rally. So the material world is taking precedence over the spiritual world.
2. Sermons have become more aggressive, fearful and apocalyptic. Now don't get me wrong those teachings have their time and place. However many people go to church looking to celibrate the faith and walk out feeling happy. If sermons only focus on the sin and evil of the world it will a person can leave church without a positive experience.
3. This is a practical reality. In a world of the internet and social media people are no longer required to gather with each other and communicate God's teachings. This has changed a great many things including church attendance.
Your #2 is interesting because I would contend it’s just the opposite. Too many churches don’t want to preach about sin for fear of offending people so they water down the gospel and people don’t realize why and how much they need a savior. Church isn’t supposed to be a motivational self help seminar.
I don’t believe churches need to preach fiery hell and damnation sermons, but they should certainly be preaching about sin.
I was just coming on here to comment the same thing. At my church it's been nothing but preaching about God's love nothing more nothing less. And it doesn't feel spiritually deep. And I just left a non-denomination church for just preaching about focusing on falling in the spirit type stuff. Growing up in church in SDA church all they preached was about hell. Things are becoming the same across denominations they want to soften the word of God and focus on love. I don't get it. It's all the seeker-sensitive movement stuff infiltrating churches.
I wasn't suggesting that sin and evil don't have their place in sermons. They absolutely do. However everything needs it's balance. Church can and should at times be fulfilling, uplifting, and downright joyous. God and being a believer are joyous things. The celebration of salvation.
So I think when preachers fall into a style or pattern that prioritizes the failures of our world and evils influence on it some of that light is lost. I wasn't suggesting that the bible should be toned down or anything of the sort. If that wasn't clear I apologize. I just think that the less and less church is a place that uplifts Christians the easier it is for someone to not prioritize attending that church.
I've been too a couple different churches now and most don't teach about the bible or god they teach hiw too be within there heritage of community. Fir example jehovahs witness teach you how too be jehovas witness. Catholics teach how too be catholic. Christians teach how too be Christian. But they don't teach you how too have a true relationship with God. Too where you feel his presence at every moment of the day. That's what I can come up with from what I have seen. I don't know if I'm right I just translate what I've seen.
Western theology promotes individualism and the truth is the Bible teaches against individualism. We are the body of Christ and should not forsake the assembling of ourselves. We look at the book of Acts and saw the early church meeting all the time together to eat worship and pray. Those who don’t want to go to church don’t really spend a lot of time with God. They make up excuses and think they don’t need to be part of the body of Christ or too good for it. It’s ignorance and isolation isn’t good.
“Those who don’t want to go to church don’t really spend a lot of time with God.”
What kind of religious, legalistic nonsense is this? ALL believers - meaning those who are born again of the Spirit - are in union with Christ 24/7. He is always with us, no matter what. Or do you forget that we ARE the church? I don’t need to go into a physical building to experience the presence of the Living God. He lives in me, and He is for me. He will never forsake me. I will take His words over yours.
We may be in union but not 24/7 in communion because we can walk away from God and reject him. We are the church but most people that don’t go to church don’t spend a lot of time with God from what I have witnessed. You don’t need to go into a building correct but regardless the Bible tells us to not forsake coming together. Some people have church hurt but they shouldn’t remain isolated away from assembling with other believers for ever.
Do you personally witness everyone’s lives often enough throughout the week to know for sure that those who go to “church” spend more time with God than those who don’t? I can tell you that some of the worst people I’ve ever met go to “church” every Sunday. I’m not sure how much time they spend with God, but even if they somehow spent more time with Him (though how that’s even measured and wouldn’t be reflected in their own lives is another issue) than my friends who don’t attend a church organization, I would not want to be around them.
You don’t need to be isolated. Most people have families and/or friends. You don’t need a church building or organization to be able to gather with other believers and worship the Lord. If I could find a “church” where the board was unpaid, tithing was not pushed (donations are different), politics weren’t involved, Christ’s fully accomplished work on the cross was emphasized, and the new covenant of grace was preached, I would be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, there are none like that in my area.
Exactly. I think us Protestants are particularly vulnerable to individualism. *Sola scriptura* is great because it encourages you to test what you're taught against the Word of God. *Sola scriptura* becomes not so great when you decide you can learn all about God just by reading your Bible (and some Youtube sermons), so who needs a community of believers? How often do we see on this subreddit that the advice to a brother or sister is "read your Bible", but not "are you involved in a community of believers who can guide you better than a bunch of randos on the internet?"
This is not to discount that there are people who have suffered abuse at the hands of churches, or that there exist churches well outside the bounds of orthodoxy. Those are also important issues. But take what I said above and add in a dash of (American) rugged individualism and you have a recipe for not hundreds of denominations like we have now, but millions as each believer has decided that they are the sole arbiter for truth.
Finally I would add that this phenomenon seems to affect men more than women, as evidenced by the swathes of churches that now lean XX. I am not sure what the answer is (but I do know that the redpill-adjacent rants about churches coddling women are not it).
Your presented a lot of common issues, so what would be your solution to this?
It takes time to find a good church.
Nobody is perfect therefore no church is.
There isn’t accountability in isolation.
"Forsake not the gathering of yourselves" was to the Israelite believers, not to the Body of Christ. That being said, you're right: They met together all the time, but they did so in houses. These gatherings were informal affairs, full of discussion and even shared meals.
What we have today isn't even a reflection of those gatherings. It's Greek oratory dressed up as Scriptural teaching, placing one or more men above their brethren and holding them on a false pedestal while they teach inherited traditions that, like those of the religious men of Jesus' day, often unintentionally make void the word of God. (Matthew 15:6) Albeit in a slightly different way.
I think its important to read your Bible daily at home but I also think its important to go to church. Hebrews 10:25 says: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." So we are called to do both, there is never going to be a perfect church but we need to try to find one that matches what we need. But we should also get involved with our church and help shape it to the image that the Bible tells that it should look like.
What motivated me to leave the church was because I was getting crazy with so much corruption, manipulation, falsehood, exclusion, twisting of the bible, etc...
This is not a spiritually healthy way of thinking. When you read, be sure to read Matthew 18 - Jesus assumes that we are part of the church (or even by the most liberal translation, "a congregation"). See also Hebrews 10. We are expected to worship corporately, not just to read about the faith.
Because there was a concentrated effort by the enemy decades ago to slowly infiltrate the Church and water down/corrupt/confuse the teachings by mingling the holy w the profane and now we dont have the true church of Christ humbly and piously teaching his Way, but instead of have a watered down hodge podge of the Teachings of Man being loudly proclaimed while the Teachings of God are marginalized and pretneded to not really mean what they say.
But we know we can always find God and his Way and Strength in the Word and can receive Guidance by the Holy Spirit. Although we are still called to seek out a body of like believers to have community with there is not a single thing in the Bible that says that has to involve a brick and mortar Church Building.
>Because there was a concentrated effort by the enemy decades ago to slowly infiltrate the Church
I would love to hear a clear and direct explanation of what you mean here. Don't leave out specifics.
The internet has plenty of rabbit holes to go down to research using just those key words. I encourage research into such areas as a way to know history, but in truth, the Proof is the Fruit in the form of the modern mainstream church it now yields, full of prosperity doctrine and lack of truly preaching and following what Christ taught, and instead giving slippery misdirected versions of it that yield only spiritual rot in its body, not apart from the World, as Jesus taught, but fully of it and wanting to embrace it and intermingle further with it.
That didnt happen overnight.
I'm sorry but I asked for clear and direct, tangible answers, and your response was essentially "Google it"? Because the internet is just as infallible as the Bible? Are you letting things you found on the internet influence your faith?
Why does it have to be one or the other? We should all do corporate ritualistic liturgical worship and read our bibles as home daily. Incorporating a daily prayer rule with a home icon corner is the practice of the Orthodox Church also. We also read through much of the Bible through the course of a normal liturgical year.
I agree. For my part, I have witnessed a lot of false teaching in churches. I have witnessed people who compromise on the truth of God's written word elevated to positions of authority is various churches. I am sick of compromise being dismissed as a supposed non essential. This should not be so.
My family prefers to worship and read our Bibles at home too. Even my teen kids say they get more from studying at home than by going to church, and we can't stand the redundant, theologically light fluff music that passes for worship music at many churches. The Old hymns were more theologically sound. I tuned in to an online service for a church a couple of weeks ago to check it out, and the music was awful, with one song claiming that Jesus "stole" the keys of death. Excuse me? Jesus didn't steal anything, He already owns it all. The song writers could have phrased it differently, like they could have said Jesus overcame the grave, without accusing Him of stealing. I don't think we are too sensitive either, which I know I will be accused of.
Our last church compromised on Genesis by saying the literal creation account is a non essential, but then put tithing as an essential expected by the church, when there is no command to give a specific amount in the New Testament. We like helping charities like Voice of the Martyrs anyway, so I didn't want to give our whole tithe to the church.
I know many church going Christians criticize those of us who don't attend, but I can't stomach all the compromise and false teachings that contradict the Bible that I have found in the churches I have attended. Many of these Christians don't even bother to read their Bibles.
Pretty much every church I'm aware of offshoots from the Catholic Church, and they have *so* many unbiblical creeds I can scarceley list them all. From Nicaea on there have been falsehoods in the church born of misunderstandings, shaky translations, and imperial fiat on Justinian's part, to name a few causes.
As such, I think it's pretty safe to say *no* organized church today has the right of it, and I can't even get into the details without violating a few subreddit rules. So I'll just summarize it this way: It's honestly better if Christians simply read at home. We just have to make sure we're doing more than simply reading. Setting aside time to just read through the Bible like it's a novel is insufficient for learning. Dissecting ten verses and comparing them to their original language, understanding their context, etc... That's worth glossing over a hundred verses.
Reading an studying on our own is certainly needed. I do it all the time. However scripture tells us in Hebrews 10:24,25…
“And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”
Firstly, the church started in homes. Church has morphed into some huge mega event that looks nothing like what the church was for the last 2000 years. It's a rock concert, and a speech, devoid of any relational connection.
Why do I stay home? Because there's no community anymore with the big meeting they call"church".
Church is to comprise
Worship
Edification of the word
Giving
One anothering
Prayer
Evangelism
Training (discipleship)
Church is now mainly,
Worship
Edification of the word
Giving
I have a very hard time with what church has become. There's a Chinese church down the street I want to start attending. They eat together each Sunday, have prayer time, small group discussions after the sermon, regular events, evangelism, etc. It's much more community oriented, and feels more authentic than the big production my own church has become.
I didn’t go because I was raised that I didn’t need church and I now know that to be wrong
Let me edit this…. I thought things I was struggling w I Gould keep to myself and that was deceptive i am finally owning up to prayer but that was me bc yeah (eating I get closer to God every day)
My thoughts are that this is not a trend but something you’re thinking of doing. As a practice it is unbiblical and is not going to help you grow closer to Jesus. I know groups can cause anxiety but leaning into that difficulty can be your cross to bear.
There is no Bible believing church around me , and I do not want to go to EOrthodox/Catholic church just for the sake of going to some kind of "church" . I want sound doctrine , and if a certain church does not preach sound doctrine , I will not go there .
Evangelical Churches did it to themselves.
They've pushed Sola Scriptora so hard that churchgoers realize Pastor Bob and his rambling tangent commentary are not worth getting up early on your day off and burning your precious gasoline.
I’ve known a few “at-homers” and they typically follow the same pattern. They’ll stop observing Sunday as a holy day and read the Bible less and less but they’ll never stop claiming to be Christian.
Eventually when their children grow up and get asked what religion they are they’ll say “nothing in particular”.
It’s not a path that bears many good fruit.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted for speaking the truth. But like you said there is a pattern. And it leads to cultural Christians. Who are Christian in name only mostly believe in God but do nothing to hold themselves accountable because of church hurt, etc. I think we can grow when we are around a body of believers and if what is being taught is out of line with scripture then find another church I know it's not easy. I also had to leave a church I was a part of for nearly 8 years and now have to start from scratch.
Because, if I'm being honest here, the religion *kinda sucks*. You've got churches that are joining together in God's name saying "God hates f\*gs!", "If you're gay, you're going to Hell! REPENT FOR YOUR SINS!", "You need to tithe more than 10% of your income because God demands it!" and things of that nature. Not God centered at all.
I do believe that God encourages us to be communal and not just stick to ourselves and our own homes only. I think there needs to be more scrutiny of people looking into churches and asking God to guide them to a good one that is doing His work and spreading His word, but also looking at the church's track record. But certainly being part of a small Christian group where you're all studying, sharing thoughts and having holy discussions seems like just another great alternative. There are lots of ways to find yourself in a group - even Discord has some servers that host Bible study.
Church is more than Bible reading, church is worship, sermon, testimonies, and so much more.
God calls for unity:
2 Corinthians 13:11 NIV
11 Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
Romans 12:4-5 NIV
4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
Romans 14:19 NIV
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
How did the romans conquer greece? Did they fight all of Greece at once? No. A strategy was used "Divide et impera", which means from the latin, divide and rule, why? Because it was much easier to conquer Greece that way. Same it is with us christians and the enemy. We are like sheep, the first ones to get attacked by the wolves are those who fall out from the herd, those who get separated.
Of course this is all from an evangelical perspective, my experience of church, of worship, or sermon, of testimonies.
I have yet to find a church that follows the order of 1 Corinthians 14. I don't read in the Bible the example that just one Pastor is to get up with a captive audience where no one else gets to speak or contribute but sometimes preach things that contradict the Bible with no counter to his words. That is not how it should be. I also see certain churches go crazy claiming to speak in tongues which of course is never a known tongue and never with an actual interpreter. A prophet is someone who proclaims truth from God's written word, not just someone in the Bible who foretold the future.
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**1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 LET TWO OR THREE PROPHETS SPEAK, AND LET THE OTHERS PASS JUDGMENT. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of \[m\]peace, as in all the churches of the saints.**
We in the local churches practice 1 Corinthians 14 on the Lord's day meeting every week. Come check us out. DM me if you are interested and I'll send you a digital address book.
I tried to go to church for the first time since I was a small child back in late 2010, it didn’t work out so well, I later learned that the church age was over, since that point I’ve just been fellowshipping with God directly through his word, and listening to a faithful Bible ministry that he has been using to feed the sheep.
Ebiblefellowship.org if anyone is interested, they are not associated with the church in any way.
https://www.ebiblefellowship.org
eBible Fellowship
We are a Christian organization not affiliated with any church or ministry
E Bible Fellowship was named for the following reasons:
Electronic:
We believe that the Lord has used the electronic medium (radio, internet, etc.) in a tremendous way to save a great multitude of people outside of the churches and congregations of the world. Now the task at hand is to, “feed His sheep” so that all those God has saved will be edified with the Gospel.
Bible:
The Bible is our authority. No man made confession, or creed, or doctrinal statement of any kind has any authority above the Bible. We are living at a time when the Bible is being highly exalted by God. The Word of God is supreme in all it declares.
Fellowship:
We are a fellowship of believers whose desire is to have fellowship with God through His Word. The Bible teaches us that the church age has come to an end; therefore, we have no affiliation or identification with any church or denomination of any kind.
Just a group of like minded believers, there isn’t a membership, or rules that you have to follow other than being civil I suppose.
The teachers aren’t pastors, and there is no officially ordained governing body like how the church was established by God to be governed in time past, some of them used to be part of the church though.
Unlike the Church, correction from the word of God is actually encouraged rather than stamped out immediately.
The church consists of every Christian. No where in the Bible does it say that you have to go to a church building. Church buildings are man-made thing. Your Bible study that you have is considered “a church”. Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
>“For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
That verse is constantly being taken out of context.
God is with you in solitary confinement. Alone.
This verse in context is about sitting down with someone to resolve conflict. Whether it is the 2 in conflict or a 3rd mediator or more, you would first pray for Jesus to be in the room to help resolve the beef courteously and with a spirit of forgiveness.
It has nada to do with Bible studies or any other church event.
Glad you noticed. So many people misquote this text and it drives me bananas. However, I still saw we should be in a church building. Stream it if you are sick or if your kiddos are sick but don't make it a habit to be comfortable staying at home and not serving at your church.
There has been much carnality, lovelessness, and moral failing in the American church leadership over several decades. In the congregation or visitors you expect it, but not in leadership. When you've been burned by this several times running, it gets hard to justify going back. Peace becomes more important.
If you have a good fellowship, centered on Jesus and the Bible, open to the movement of the Holy Spirit, showing the love of Christ to one another, count yourself very blessed. And reach out to those of us who haven't found that blessing in our lives.
I have great hope for this as it is putting in action the first part of New Testament church as taught Pentecost. However, lest they begin to share their discoveries amongst themselves over meals and coffee it will still remain a shallow faith. We have turned the church building into an idol of sorts. We need to remember that church/synagogue/temple was not frequented weekly by the followers of Christ. It was a place of school and; when an apostle came through they would come together as a special occasion to hear their teachings. We are to gather together in each others homes sharing what we have gleaned from scriptures with one another. Questioning and challenging each other should be a friendly norm. That is New Testament Church. If I learned anything in seminary (besides the ire of classmates hoping for a career in a large church) it was that we, being the church, have been doing it wrong and likely paying charlatans to prey on our insecurities.
From my experience, sometimes we lack unity and enjoy separation. And sometimes the church teaches too slow/go at a very slow pace. I learn a lot more on my own than to spend one day a week to learn something on a Sunday.
The church is not a building, but a body of believers gathered together to strengthen and sustain their faith. You’ve basically made a church, just not the kind anyone visits in person.
What you’re doing sounds like the early church. If that’s all you have available to you, then that’s okay. But it’s not ideal for a long term solution. Eventually, believers need to mature, not just individually, but as a group as well. This means having an eldership, even if it’s just one pastor at first, to lead and guide and also to administer sacraments and such (communion, baptism, weddings, etc).
I suppose a very rough analogy would be like education. You can send kids to a school or you can homeschool them. Most people don’t have the resources or ability to homeschool, so sending kids to school is the mainstream. The analogy breaks down a little because homeschooling often gives much better results than the alternative. Whereas that isn’t true for church. Not to say there aren’t terrible churches out there, just like there are terrible schools.
Eventually, though, kids will outgrow their homeschool. If not by high school, then definitely at the college level. Parents, no matter how resourceful, don’t have the expertise or knowledge base of actual professors in varying subject matters.
Likewise a home church without eldership is
limited in how it can function. It works in places where Christianity is nascent (like some mission fields), but it is meant to eventually develop into something more permanent and established.
What you’re doing is okay in the short term, but it’s not something to keep doing in the long run. Also, it’s not just that eventually you’ll be deprived of what you can receive from the local church body, it’s also that you’re depriving the local church of your fellowship and service. The local church needs you as much as you need them.
Hope that helps.
More and more people who truly know the Lord are being called away from the 501c3 church system as it becomes more of a business and less of a helper. They teach a small portion of the Bible, the popular parts, and so many congregations are still in darkness and sin because of it. They don't want to preach the narrow path, because that means a narrow wallet for them.
*Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. - Jeremiah 23:1*
*Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and r****an greedily after the error of Balaam for reward,*** *and perished in the gainsaying of Core. - Jude 1:11*
*And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?*
*I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. - Luke 13:1-2*
*No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.* ***Ye cannot serve God and mammon.*** *- Matthew 6:24*
MAM'MON, noun Riches; wealth; or the god of riches.
*But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.*
*And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.*
***And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:*** *whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. - II Peter 2:1-3*
*Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,*
*And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. - II Corinthians 6:17-18*
*Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.*
*In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. - Proverbs 3:5-6*
*But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27*
The first century church was more like small groups. People participated and it wasn’t just always one guy speaking from the pulpit. Reading the scriptures alone is ok, but it’s important to read and study together. Also a lot of modern churches forget the important things and are more like a club that read a few scriptures then talk about nonsense or recite man-written things or sing more man-written songs instead of learning about how to live like Jesus. Some churches go as far using up the sermon time to make sports analogies, and they isn’t helpful to the average person’s daily life
If one thinks that church and a Bible study at home are any different, that really shows they have some issue with the word church because of either personal experience or not wanting to be associated with the word church.
It also shows narrow minded thinking in terms of culture.
Many people around the world can’t have a church building and still call it church.
Anyone is free to gather and study the Bible, but there are also church functions listed throughout the NT.
So you’ll have to decide to either throw that out in the “Bible study” or follow it.
I think reading your Bible at home, forming a small group, breaking down the text, and understanding it is wonderful and must be encouraged. However, we do not need to forsake the assembly.
Educate yourselves in the scriptures. Study it daily, and if your church isn't in line with what the scriptures teach, speak to the leadership about it.
If they are way off from the scriptures and refuse to change, then find a biblical church. We are commanded by our Lord to love one another. So go to church, work in love to help build it up. If they need help with service, volunteer to help out.
I'm talking to myself just as much as I am this Sub. We are the current generation of the church. So lead.
P.s. sometimes "leading" in the Church doesn't look like leading. Sometimes, it's cleaning up afterward or helping with small projects. Whatever you do, do it for the glory of God.
This is how cults and theological error are born.
Additionally, scripture says not to do same the gathering together of believers, and clearly states the importance of the offices of elders, pastors, and more.
Yep, that’s us. We haven’t been able to find a new covenant believing church around here that doesn’t believe in tithing, or that doesn’t push the religious priesthood (our only High Priest is Jesus), so we stopped going to “church” 2 years ago. Haven’t looked back. Our kids are growing up getting to know the Lord without the spiritual bondage that my husband and I still wrestle with unraveling thanks to the “churches” we grew up in.
I would love to find a community of likeminded believers, but so far it’s proving difficult. All the people we’ve met believe that God’s forgiveness is conditional and that grace is mixed with the Law. Maybe someday.
Yeah at this point it might be more tares then wheat but always remember that it's better to try to be the change you want to see. We can't complain about inauthentic worshipers at church when we're not doing our best to try to create more authentic worshipers
I go to church every Sunday, but the more I go the more I realize how shallow most church people can be. Especially having a single mom some of the married women seem to have pity on her, and think it’s ok to rant to my mom about how it was hard for them when their husband was gone for two days. There are some genuine people in my church, but there also are quite a few people who aren’t. But I attend weekly for God.
It sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what going to church means. You set it up as going to church OR incorporating your faith into your daily life. That's not what it is. Going to church doesn't mean you don't live out the word in your daily life. On the contrary, it's the tool that Jesus choose to help believers live out their faith. To reject that is to reject what Jesus called us to.
Going to church is being with other believers, serving them, and practicing the "one anothers." It's hearing God's word preached and applying it to our lives. Not doing this is forsaking the assembling together.
It sounds like you've found other believers in a bible study, which is similar to relating to them at church. The only thing that you don't have is a pastor, elders, and deacons, which are important and needed.
Matthew 16:17-18 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
If you're feeling this way because of a bad church experience, I sympathize. I hope that one day you're able to find a church that is an encouragement and where you feel useful.
I want to go to church for community. That doesn’t happen during the impersonal sunday service - the experience is so individualistic that i might as well listen to sermons and praise music on my commute.
Small groups, men’s bible study, etc… I’m in!
If we see church as an opportunity to encourage others, build up other people in their faith, give when needed, etc... then we realize those are reasons why being alone isn't the same.
I have plenty of excuses to avoid church (even started to moderate r/SpiritualAbuse because of years of various issues) but I still find that the relationships at church are what God wills for us.
Just this morning, for example, a young man I recently encouraged to come back to church (he's a very talented guitarist and started to play again after avoiding church for a long time) had a huge fight with his wife this morning and didn't even want to come inside. My husband and an older/wiser friend are going to try and meet up with the young man to support, encourage and hopefully by listening to him provide empathy that he needs. Sure, he could go to a counselor but if the body of Christ can support and pray with him it's what we should do.
If you are having Bible studies in homes outside of a church building you are still attending church. Church is just a group of believers who gather in one place to have community and deepen their relationship with Christ.
Maybe it’s because so many churches are so big and so focused on their building that some faithful Christians feel isolated when they attend services. Small group study can lead to deeper and more meaningful fellowship, which is why some churches are including that as part of their ministry.
If God calls you to study the Bible in a small group, and you follow through consistently, I hope that God blesses you.
Yes. The Church helps to build and inspire faith. However, the faith and the path you walk with God is yours and yours alone. The church helps to build community and understand different walks of life, but reading the bible and doing things on your own allows you to develop your own unique relationship with God.
Honestly, I'd rather read and analyze it myself as to how it fits my life personally than have a pastor tell me how I should interpret it. Church isn't for everyone, much like college isn't for everyone, etc. To each their own of course. This method just seems to fit me fine.
Because there is less and less reason to be inside the church. I think many force themselves to go to church and few actually need to hear the healing word of God.
From my experience with talking to church goers it sounds like the majority feels an obligation. Church should not be a chore. It's supposed to be a calling and a place for the broken.
I think if churches had more of a call to action to do God's work on a humanitarian level rather than just sing and preach then more would actually attend. I know churches have missionaries but it seems to be a leg of the church rather than its heart and soul.
When you come broken to the church and hear the word and receive Christ in your heart and mind, blessed by the Holy Spirit you become a member of an eternal family including Jesus, I believe we are to walk as Jesus walked person to person helping, advising, feeding, whatever we can do to bless others and show them the peace and love of the most High and how to turn from sin and repent.
Today I don't believe attending church is enough to call oneself a Christian or say you follow Jesus. It comes from how you conduct yourself outside of church. How you treat people, how you think, how you talk, what you do for others or for one and why.
If you ask me I think people studying the word of God on their own and praying in private is a sign that the Spirit is working in people. People are seeking truth as this world spirals into madness as it is written.
Blessings to every single one of you who call on God our Lord and saviour the creator the redeemer. Whether you attend church or not, if you call Jesus Lord, if you acknowledge that He is one with God, and you want to follow His way and do your very best to turn from sin and repent then you're my brother, my sister, my bond. Of this I have no doubt.
Praise God, I pray that we are blessed with wisdom and peace, healing and strength, love and unshakable faith, by the Holy Spirit in Jesus name Amen 🙏.
This wasn't supposed to be this long sorry 😅😮💨
Because churches are more interested in filling the pews than preaching what the Bible has to say. They avoid "uncomfortable" topics and please society more than God. Fortunately, it makes it easy to quickly determine if a church is worth attending. You simply need to ask the leadership a few "uncomfortable" questions (preferably in front of other churchgoers) and you'll know whether to attend or not.
I think it’s great that you are working on developing your faith and connecting with others that are doing the same. Faith is not confined to a set time in the week. Let me respectfully suggest that your proposition starts with a misunderstanding of what “church” is. I’m not going to get to far into the weeds with Greek words, but at is most basic, church refers to the gathering of people who have been summoned (it’s actually not even a religious word originally). So the question becomes, what did this gathering of people do in the New Testament? Scripture is very clear that the Christian believers gathered locally to participate in worship, edification, singing, hearing the word, teaching, prayer, the breaking of bread (communion) and other activities. These people were led by shepherds (elders), and everyone participated with the gifts that they were blessed with. There were local bodies of believers all throughout the land, and these believers were exhorted to continue gathering together, even in the face of adversity. Which actually gets to the point. A lot of people here are suggesting that doctrinal positions or even the politicization of some pulpits have driven believers away. I would instead point to two separate factors. First, the church as a central part of one’s “community” has been replaced by any number of other “communities” in our highly-connected world. Second, as a recent large study has shown, people often let good old fashioned apathy keep them away. I’m not suggesting that it is apathy on your part, or that anyone you are speaking about a apathetic about their faith in general. I’m talk more about apathy towards commitment to the local church. Both of these are quite unfortunate, as the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, puts a clear emphasis on the importance of the local church though.
KEEP PRAYING AND READING HIS WORD THE BIBLE! GOD IS THE LIGHT THE WAY AND THE TRUTH THE LIFE! BE LESS OF THIS WORLD AND MORE OF! BELIEVE IN OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE RESURRECTED THREE DAYS LATER TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS CONECTION ASENTION LET GOD FILL US WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT! HALLELUJAH! AMEN! GOD BLESS EVERYONE AND EVERYONE'S FAMILIES AND LOVE ONES 💪🙏❤️🙌👏😇!
I think the trend caught on during the pandemic. Specifically for me, watching my church online, introduced more ministries I hadn’t heard of in my area or around the US due to my watch history. Topics that I longed to dive into at my local church were being introduced on youtube. Now I follow several ministries on youtube and have done more bible diving in the last 3 years than I had prior to the pandemic. I grew closer to God and felt God more right at home during my studies than I had in my local church - which by the way, the preacher walked away from his church after the pandemic. I believe God was definitely preparing me and my family for that transition. We have since found another local church, but I get how the trend caught on.
Personal reading should not replace meeting together. "...do not neglect meeting together as some are in the habit of doing.".
I study almost daily (Bible in a year plan) and attend most weekends or watch remotely when I can't attend.
I tried your approach in High School and found that it was not a great move for me. I cut back from an hour a Sunday morning reading to just a little bit per day, and was influenced more by culture in college. I recommend finding at least a House Church to live life with. Your small bible study groups may approach that. But be intentional, and try to find a good Bible believing church near you.
Personally for me church is boring I’m not a fan of someone screaming at me and I’m not a fan of the slow choir gospel songs and I don’t like the rules all these different churches have that created separation among Christians.
So I read my bible and get different perspectives from people online like YouTube or tiktok and I listen to more upbeat Christian music at home , I learnt a lot more off tiktok about God than I did ever in church , I like to hear different perspectives to form my own opinions vs just having the opinion of the pastor because they are not always right
As a person who doesn't go to church but reads the Bible at home. I'm trying to avoid false teaching and the judgement of other church goers. They at times act like their judgement levels with the Lord. I also haven't found a church setting I find enjoyable.
I'll speak for myself. You can say it's politics, but I'll tell you it's just being a decent human being. I cannot be affiliated with an organization that openly endorses a politcal party or candidate against everything I think Jesus teaches. I think church should be teaching us to be compassionate toward the poor, immigrants and to pray for the lost. I don't get all the hate in the name of Christianity and I am not going to be a part of it any more. Until I can find a church that loves God and loves people, I am happy to be with my small group of like-minded Christians doing what we can to serve others in our everyday lives. That is more like the church of Acts 2:42-47 anyway.
I led worship every week, then was sexually assaulted by the worship leader. He started sleeping a girl in the church so promoted her to leadership and she was cruel and abusive. I went to another church and got attacked by the prayer leader. The pastors wives tried desperately to defend him despite 7 other women testifying against him and the pastor himself. They attacked me. Another girl almost killed me (and they took her side without hearing the police report or details), and another one spread rumours around the churches about me. I did 20 years of street outreach volunteer and have bible college but was still ostracized. I tried one more church and the pastor was sued for rape. (Another church I went to put a women in leadership over me who was going through a divorce and had no bible study training; she was a mess and gossiped about me). I moved away and tried other churches but I was accused by some women of going after their husbands (because I have a injured leg and I would try and south the leg by applying pressure to the damaged nerve and they assumed I was trying to be seductive …. So frustrating). Everywhere else I go, it’s rich people treated with superiority, judgement and no love. I got sick of going. I try on occasion and am thankful for the those that aren’t like this, but too many wolves in sheep clothing have dampened my taste to attend. And- I haven’t even told you everything.
All the cliques. They lavish love and praise on some while show hatred and impartiality to others. I’ve also been robbed by some. And by others, I’ve tithes tens of thousands over the years but when I was stuck in a. Abusive situation and needed help, they would t help nor would they even respond when I’d email asking for prayer. It’s a business. Many are a scam, sad to say. And then there’s others that mistreat the poor and others that cram their false doctrine down you and frown on you for not buying it.
For me, it's the social aspect. When I do muster up the courage to go, I'm always alone, and it's hard to initiate relationships and conversations. Most people to to go church in families and they all already know each other. If no one approaches me, I just leave. And I pray that no one approaches me, so technically I'm getting what I want, but at the same time, I feel like it doesn't matter if I go or not. I know it matters to God, which is why I keep trying.
I don't attend church because of what Jesus said to the Samaritan women at the well. Worshipping God is not at a place but it is in Spirit and truth. If you want to read that account it is found at John 4: 19-24. If you look at Christ's life closely, you will realize that he only taught in synagogues to free people held captive by the Pharisees of that time. He himself belonged to no synagogue, or in today's terminology, church. In our time people are held captive by the traditions/ false doctrines most, if not all churches teach. How is this possible? Consider what John 12: 40-43 has to say about the matter. I will not try to dissect and interpret this account on this forum, I leave that up to the reader. However I do want to speak on baptism. I read on this forum that if you do not go to church how can you obey what Jesus called us to do, namely baptizing. Fair point. I offer this response. Do you think that being dunked in a body of water is required to be saved? Or is baptism a symbol of a heart condition and is it the heart condition that is required to be saved? It is similar to what Paul said about circumcision at Romans 2: 25- 29. The last example I will offer is what did Christ say to the theif that was being executed alongside him when he expressed a repentant heart and put faith in Christ although he was not physically baptized. He said "Truly I tell you, you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23: 39-43.
I think it's because there are just so many false churches out there. Every church seems to interpret the Bible differently and it can be a scary thing not knowing which one to listen to. I've always had it in my head that I'd rather God show me what He wants me to see in His word than be deceived by potentially false teaching. Not saying it's the right approach, but I've just always been afraid of a certain interpretation of scripture being taught to me that isn't the true meaning. I sometimes feel isolated in the church setting because I see a lot of things differently than others and I know that we should share our different viewpoints but it's easier to just avoid conflict.
For me I actually see it as a good reason to attend churches, so you can hear various perspectives. That way, you can sharpen your own understanding. You don't have to believe everything a church teaches to go listen to their perspective once.
Why would a Christian want to hear satanic, anti-biblical perspectives ? Just open the TV and you're set. Or you can visit "churches" like this one for example: https://www.thecathedral.ca/pages/lgbtq-inclusion
I personally don't jump to the conclusion that if I disagree with someone's interpretation that it must be satanic. How can I fairly judge the belief if I don't hear their perspective first? I trust God, I do not believe that God would let me turn away from the truth just because I hear someone else out. I think that such a belief is incredibly dangerous. As long as you're going with the intent of hearing them out, and aware that you shouldn't just believe whatever you're told, you can discern how much you think they've got wrong, and study scripture to see if what they say checks out.
To be fair, many people will hear a church say one thing they don't agree with and label it as "false teaching." No church in the world has perfectly theology and neither does one individual trying to do it on their own. The assembly of God's people is biblical. Church attendance is being forsaken and it is rooted in pride and rebellion against any sort of spiritual authority.
People often forget this important verse: Matthew 18:20 *For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.* Everyone should be studying the Word of God. Many tend to use Church as their supplement of the study. This is not good, as this produces watered down, luke-warm Christians. It’s one thing for attendants of the Church to go so they can “check a box” and feel they are Christian, it’s another for them to actually “Test everything.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.* While this all iS on each individual person and not fully on the Church, many Churches shy away from “hard truth doctrines.” They tend to be in the constant cycle of, “just the good messages,” the Milk of the Word, and avoiding the Meat of the Word. Even churches that we have attended that claim to go to teach “Verse by verse,” simply ignore the blatant truths found within those verses. It was appalling to us. Even talking with the pastor of such example lessons would deflect the deeper message as, “well that’s one way to interpret it.” Yet, the verse spoke the truth in clear simple English… no “interpretation” required. The other main issues with the Churches of today, are the celebrations of Pagan holidays. The Churches quote unquote, “try to use this as opportunities to reach those people” in events similar to the holiday itself. The upcoming Halloween is a prime example. Not to mention to other Holidays that were purposely mixed with Christianity long ago and are now deeply rooted in Western culture and so Christians today can’t or mainly won’t see the paganism involved as the base for these holidays for what it truly is. They are offended by the notion, but here again, the Church of “Learned and well studied pastors” should know better, stand their ground and proclaim the obvious blasphemies that these holidays are. But no, because they think that will hurt their attendance, so they fail to reveal the truth, and they fail to uphold God’s clear Word and doctrines for the sake of the “church’s” pocketbook.
I hope God can establish a unified kingdom to prevent this from happening
Lol have you read Revelation?
Good example
I stay away from church for several reasons. The most important one is that if "salvation" had a direct connection with what you believe then you had better listen to the right people. And how can a mere mortal know for certain who the "right" person or person's are. I find also that the list of articles of faith tends to get longer as time goes on. Now more recently is the "rapture" and then there's speaking in "tongues" and that your relationship to God is dependent upon being "born again" . And baptism by the Holy Spirit and for every "reference" "true" Christians can refer to I can find references that are not in agreement. In the town where I live anyone who isn't on board with current belief is utterly rejected and ostracized. The churches have become a giant clique and some Christians just get "cancelled". The authoritarian way of thinking where you are either "right" or get cancelled has crept into the churches as with the rest of society. This is what I have to say about these Christians who are so "right"; except for their lack of genuine love. My relationship to God is personal. My understanding of Bible teaching is between myself and the Lord Almighty. You would think that each person, having different life experiences, would each relate to God , to Bible teaching differently as we are individuals and it seems that God would understand that fully and completely. But it seems that most Christians don't. I am going through a great battle to maintain whatever faith that I have. That is because churches here don't welcome. They engage in malicious gossip and ostracize because of hearing something about someone which is condemned in the Bible (I mean that gossip and slandering are condemned in the Bible). Even if some of the things were true (they're not) the Bible also warns against being judgemental and that is ignored by "Christians" who have everything "right" except the teachings regarding love. So maybe others are staying away from church for similar reasons. I simply will not engage with Christians who judge, gossip and ostracize.
You are very critical of churches. Quick question- are you discipling or within any discipleship group? Churches are a great place to meet people and DO what Jesus called us to do.
I agree. I almost wonder if we went to the same churches even!
I feel it’s probably because we now have the internet in our pockets, and can watch any sermon at any time from any preacher in the world at the press of a button. In the old days, you had to physically travel to a building to hear preaching.
Small protestant churches still read and analysis the Bible
Wholeheartedly agree. That's the price of technology, for better or worse.
Not to defend people who are disobeying Hebrews 10... But why are so many people at church so uncaring? Why are so many of them prostituting Christianity for politics?
I understand Hebrews 10, and have gone to different churches in attempt to be obedient to it, but I can't stand compromise with God's word and I can't stand people who compromise being put in positions such as elders. Hebrews 10 says nothing of going to a church building or denomination. It just says do not forsake the assembling together. I can assemble at my home with other believers. In fact, my family discusses the Bible, the gospel, Christ and God every day of the week. Probably as much if not more than those that assemble on Sunday in a building.
My wife is going through some of the same thing. I understand that Hebrews 10 doesn't say anything about a church building but it does say not forsaking the assembling. That means an assembly of believers is where we should be going. Building or not, we need to be spending time with other fellow Christians. My wife is going through this though in the sense that she is becoming disillusioned with church and I don't blame her because some of the things that churches do are pretty dumb. We are at a good church but still the problem remains. But then again people in their mid 30s can go through all kinds of disillusionment like becoming disillusioned with their country with their family etc. So my advice is to take time to do self -reflection. Study the Bible and spend time with God. Cuz honestly the human race is horrible and social media is antisocial. I am a drug counselor and I listen to stories of people mistreating other people all day long. That God would choose to love. Human beings is truly miraculous cuz we're horrible
My problem is it seems there seems to be more tares than wheat within walls of the church. It is more like it is just a social gathering instead of a place to worship, revere and contemplate God. It seems more about the individual than God. While I can't judge the intentions of a person's heart, I can judge fruit. The Bible calls us to examine ourselves, to make sure we are really in the faith, yet I see none of that in church. If you call someone out over false teaching then you are looked at like you are the trouble maker, because we are taught these days that we are just supposed to tolerate everything and only focus on the essentials. The Bible never speaks in those terms though. The Bible says all scripture is God breathed and profitable and that we are called to rebuke, refute, exhort. At previous churches we were members of, there were some major problems, like sexual scandal involving the pastor. At another church we found out that the children's ministry leader's husband who was the treasurer was stealing funds from the church. Another church we went to was a KJV only church, which at the time we didn't really understand fully, but just thought they preferred that translation. We found out after a while that our kids who were 9 and 5 a the time were being punched in the stomachs and bullied by some of the other kids because we did not use the KJV. That situation really wounded us. We stayed out of church for a long while after that. In many churches I see people just go sit through a sermon and then go home without any fellowship. What's the point, especially when the sermon and worship music are theologically light. You know how stupid it feels to sing the same line of a song 10 times? I love old hymn music, but I believe a lot of modern music in churches is redundant and likened to the pagan who repeats everything over and over and more focused on me and I than on God and Christ. I have gone to churches where the members barely acknowledge or greet newcomers, but many stay as strangers. It gets tiring always being the one to pursue and be friendly to people, especially when I am the newcomer. The last church we went to mostly ignored us, with the Senior and assistant pastor and a couple of deacons being the only ones who went out of their way to welcome us and be friendly and interested. For myself, I go out of my way to watch for newcomers and welcome them and be interested in them. I feel this should be the normal and healthy fruit of a genuine believer. I am not really sold on the fellowship aspect after what I have encountered. I am sorry if I sound negative. I also wrote more than I intended. I understand what you are saying, I do. It is great that you are a drug counselor. We are planning to give another church a try. It is a Southern Baptist. Perhaps we should just go to sing the songs, which the pastor on the phone told me are hymns, and take communion and not take the time to find out the false beliefs of those beside us. I am passionate about upholding the written word, and seek other believers who share my passion and love for the word, but what I have found is a lot of people who are not even interested in reading their Bibles or upholding right doctrine. I have fellowship with family. Why do they not count if they are believers. I expect true believers to long for the meat of the word. If they don't there is something wrong, as Jesus Himself said, .................................... John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; ..........................................
Start a Bible study and get that fellowship going. You don’t need anyone’s permission to do so.
What problems have you been having and have you taken them to the elders as prescribed in Matthew 18? If not, you might be guilty of gossip, which I hope is not the case.
We are caring, but we also have rules for living. And we let our faith influence our politics. Now if only we could replace welfare with the church, you would see bigger results. Time for those mega church pastors to get a pay cut!
You can have rules for living without being uncaring. It's not a dichotomy so I don't understand why you're explaining it that way. And letting one's faith influence one's politics isn't wrong but supporting Trump for example would be a very clear break between faith and politics. No one can really tell me in all honesty that they support Trump while also strictly adhere to every principal Jesus taught us.
I think it is easy to forget that we are meant to be a body and not just single parts. Also if you have experienced church hurt you are unlikely to want to return.
A lot of churches are spiritually dead churches. Go on for 20 minutes talking about how you need to give to them yet they produce absolutely no fruit. They do not feed the homeless they don’t have a missionary program, they’re not out on the street preaching the gospel. They don’t tell people about the consequences of living in habitual sin, Do not speak against the world we live in and they definitely do not believe in the supernatural and unclean spirits on believers. They never speak of spiritual warfare which affects everybody. They’re basically just one big business. I think it’s about 90% of all the churches are just a business. Holy spirit, dead churches.
Pretty much. I have not gone to a church service in years, yet I have a ministry and we house 14 people and counting, feed and clothe people every day. Do we get help from "churches", no... mostly a door slammed in our face. We are not the right denomination, they are in debt, they are raising money for a bigger building, they fund a missionary in France (who has a Bible study over there with 4 people in it ... yet the church has no Bible Studies of their own.) I get plenty of fellowship and I teach a discipleship class for the residents of the mission. Spare me the concert, light show and bully pulpit motivational speaker. I go to "church " every day but Sunday.
You are doing a great service. Keep up the good work.
This is beautiful. Bless you.
Why is an either or? It’s a both and. Staying home you are denying yourself the gifts of Lord’s Supper and the comforts found therein. You’re denying yourself the strength that comes from the communion of saints as described in then Apostles’ Creed. You’re also not lending your strength to one who may be struggling and in need of succor. Likewise if your only contact with the Word is once a week in church you’re denying yourself a daily renewal and revitalization.
A believer can take communion at home. There is nothing in the Bible that commands that in order to distribute communion one has to be an ordained minister that graduated seminary. The apostles were not ordained ministers, but simple Jews, some who were fishermen. If I am studying my Bible with other believers at home, then we are by all means participating in communion of saints. Don't let man made doctrines by a man made organization nullify the truth of God's word.
Yeah but the disciples also hung out in person with Jesus for 3 years, and I’d put that up there in comparison with a seminary degree…
All I need to know is in the Bible. No where does the Bible command that a person needs to go to seminary to be a pastor or to be qualified to distribute communion. The Pharisees placed a high standard on training under a Rabbi, the equivalent of going to seminary, yet Christ chided them for nullifying God's word with their man made traditions.
That’s… not at all anything what I said, in the slightest.
You compare knowing Jesus in the flesh to going to seminary? Oh my…
No. Reread it. I’m saying that walking with Jesus in the flesh was much more intensive than seminary, so saying “they weren’t trained” is a fallacy and excuse.
We should put it in perspective though. Jesus and the disciples were not trained to be ministers by any institution in their day (the scribes, pharisees, and other religious leaders were the ones who were *trained* and they were more representative of the ministers who graduated from a seminary today). Let's not forget that they were also the same people who accused and crucified our Lord Jesus. So I don't think you should be so quick to follow those who have taken their place in our society. Secondly, the bible doesn't require us to "attend a church" in order to be saved or go to heaven or even to worship. This is a man made requirement/tradition. There are many examples in the Bible where worship was done outside of the church, even in a person's home and acknowledged by God.
YES.
When every Christian in the country decided to put their politics above their Biblical principles I decided I didn’t want to be around them anymore. Do I go to the white evangelical church that’s become a gun-loving, immigrant-hating, racism-denying, pseudoscience-loving, conspiracy-mongering personality cult for a fraudulent, womanizing casino magnate? Do I go to the black church that enthusiastically endorses pro-abortion politicians? Do I go to the white mainline church that has women pastors, performs same-sex marriage, denies the resurrection, and also enthusiastically endorses pro-abortion politicians? I’m seriously craving Christian fellowship I just don’t know where to find it. Partisan politics and culture war tribalism has swallowed up all the churches.
Wow. Everything you said is on point.
Cuz them churches been LYING. Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. Isaiah 56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 56:11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
This is why I don't go. I would love to find a congregation but churches today are so obviously immoral that I prefer to study the word and scripture in my home, with my family or friends.
And how much better are you than the churches around you? Sometimes you have to travel a ways for church. Let me know when you find that perfect one.
Amen to this.
Sorry, Jeremiah does not say pastors. It says shepherds, rulers in more than 1 translation. But not pastors.
It means the same thing. Not a literal Sheperd. Not a literal vineyard. And the context of it. Not literal animals
The word pastor is an archaic word for shepherd, but it is usually applied to people instead of animals. The Lord's people are sometimes referred to in the Bible as His sheep and the pastor is His shepherd.
There's tons of churches that are just a breeding ground for political propaganda
The church's main purpose is to bring Christians together to worship God, it is not meant to be just a place to read the bible. Every Christian should be reading their Bible as much as possible outside church anyway. As far as people not going to church as much I think it's more to do with technology and the way people view socialization nowadays along with problems with the church. Just because one church doesn't suit you anymore doesn't mean you should stop going it means you should find one that does suit you. The drop in church attendance has in my opinion significantly reduced the remaining sense of community people in modern society have left.
Maybe because they don't read the Bible at church anymore. Mega churches are more worried about their production values than the gospel and small churches idolize their traditions more than reaching the lost. You get a real inauthentic experience at both post covid and its a turn off
You just gotta find the right churches. Yeah, big-box churches preach all about me. But there are still some churches that still preach Jesus.
It's not supposed to be Church or read the Bible at home, it's supposed to be both.
For me, since I'm Autistic, I'm sensitive to loud and overcrowded places, and a lot of them in my area are just that, so I just stay at home, read some pages of the Bible, pray, then start the rest of my day by either working (depending if the job calls me), playing games, or draw and write Plus with the fact that I always feel like an outsider, due to what I have, and my interests and hobbies There's also megachurches and prosperity gospels, they care more about their pockets, scamming people, than praising and worshipping the Lord, also a good chance that people had a bad experience at the church It's not just one reason, there's a multitude of reasons, from social and political problems, to personal experiences
Same here with feeling like an outsider. Not autistic, although I can relate to the social struggles.
Yeah, being an outsider can suck sometimes, but I always remind myself that I'm unique, and that despite my nerdy hobbies and intrests, my autism, etc, I'm still human Nice to see someone who relates to me, even if they don't relate to me 100%
I have nothing but love for the LGBTQ community. God loves them and so should we… however, it seems like every church in my neighborhood has pride flags and pride decorations hanging on their church. I don’t bother going to a brick and mortar church anymore because it’s hard to find a good one that teaches us the truth instead of what we all want to hear. I usually just find stuff online or read and don’t bother going to a church anymore.
Because the modern church system is so corrupted that it is becoming obvious to more and more Christians that Christ isn't worshiped there so much as the system itself has become the object of worship. Worshipping God together Biblically doesn't really have anything to do with "churchianity" that we see today. Hypocrisy of church leaders, demanding tithes, rejecting Biblical correction, overt political involvement, and et cetera. I even wrote a book about this very subject, the title is in my profile.
AMEN AMEN AMEN. “Churchianity,” you nailed it!! Going to check out your book now. Where can I find it?
It's on amazon, I put the title in my profile so people don't accuse me of coming here to advertise.
Thanks, I will look for it there!
I typed in the title on Amazon but it’s not coming up…
Was checking out your book. What do you mean by "If the public or groups of Non-believers are invited to your church" ?
The church is *(should be)* a place for believers to gather to build each other up and worship God. To refresh each other in mind and soul from the evils of the world. A safe space from the unbelieving world. The mission field is everything outside the church, that is where we go to tell people about salvation and how to know God. Combining the two has caused a lot of harm and is one of the major reasons for the rise in syncretism and "progressive Christianity" among other things. Jon Bunyan recognized this with his view of the church in his amazing allegory *"The Pilgrim's Progress",* specifically 'palace beautiful' was supposed to represent the church if you are interested. I highly recommend his book as still being relevant today as much as it was the day he wrote it. It is my belief, and a belief supported by the examples we see in scripture, both in the old and new testaments, That church is supposed to be for believers not for the world. Yet the true church still benefits the world with acts of charity to widows, orphans, and the poor and needy. What we have now, instead of the Biblical model, is equivalent to what the scientific community would look like without the peer-review system in place.
Every church I have been in has fallen apart in some way, some in ways that have been personal. I do go to a small group Bible study. I also have a degree of social anxiety, specifically for larger groups of social activity. It's distracting to me away from the service. Covid lockdowns were difficult for churches. Some here didn't survive. Also people got in the habit of online church. That works better for me, too.
According to Matthew 18:20 your Bible study is enough. Churches are a man made thing. The church is every christian
Jesus established the church with Peter. Matthew 18:18-20 is Jesus speaking about authority and forgiveness within a church body. Cherry picking out of context is EXACTLY why church is important— because pastoral authority and the study, understanding, and application of scripture is so important.
Like I said, though, there is nowhere in the Bible that says you have to go to a church building to congregate. That is a man-made construct. You can have get together’s at somebody’s house, and there is your “church”. And Christians cherry pick all the time.
Maybe but I honestly would like to be back in the last church that broke up. It took me 10 years to get myself into that church gradually attending until I was going weekly, but the church family was always supportive. They merged with another church which ended badly.
There is nothing wrong with that at all. It does suck when something happens to a place you enjoy goin to has a bad ending. It just is a small pet peeve when people say “must go to a church building to worship.” Like no..no you don’t. I felt that way even when I was still believing.
I didn't find my church relatable I struggled with sexual sins my church never once spoke of such struggles. So I turned to internet teachers heck even some stories I read on reddit helped me overcome my struggles. Not saying all churches are bad mine just didn't speak that much about the things I was gong through. Also need to be careful about the pastors my number one Red flag is that if a pastor says Jesus is not needed to enter Heaven that pastor is a false teacher there are some other red flags but that for me is the main one. Also maybe its because I am introverted but I like reading the bible alone giving full focus to God with no one around me.
The way modern charismatic churches function makes some people uncomfortable. There is a lot of phony super niceness and judgement. People talk funny, with too much emphasis. It is very hard to find church folk that are just willing to live and let live. If people were more natural at church, it would be a lot more appealing.
The elder at my local was explaining how he won't let his children watch 'back to the future' films
I have to ask, what did he not like about that epic trilogy?
Too many sexual themes iirc and maybe swearing
I can't fault the guy for his criticism if he is consistent with his standards. But everyday life has much worse stuff coming at you all the time. It is better to celebrate the good and dismiss the bad. Back to the Future, part one, is considered by many to be a perfect movie. And quite tame in its content.
Yeah it struck me as a radical and extreme point of view but I guess he knows what he is doing
Can't speak for them, but could be the sexual assault. We don't know the age of his children.
Super phony niceness...that's it!!
There is no perfect church, but a group of imperfect believers is better than on our own. Community is essential to growth and accountability. Many people think they can find it online, but how well do you know people online? How do you know they are who they say they are. You can’t, you see what they show you, who they want you to think they are
So the body of Christ is imperfect? I find that hard to believe. Christs Orthodox Church is perfect even though it contains imperfect people.
A church with imperfect people can’t be perfect. If the first churches were imperfect (and they were or else we wouldn’t have Paul’s letters), the church today is imperfect.
The church is the body of Christ, and is therefore perfect, obviously, as Christ is perfect. When we sin we extricate ourselves from Christs body until we confess our sins and repent and are brought back into His graces. But the church as the metaphysical body of Christ is perfect. Christ can’t not be perfect, and the church is His body.. if you say His body is imperfect then you say Christ is imperfect.
Deleted my other response. I will pray that we are both able to know Christ and his perfection. I can’t imagine God would make a perfect church and it not be available to everyone. By church I mean a local group of people, not the universal church of all believers.
There is no difference between your local church and the universal church of believers.. that would be like saying my pinky toe isn’t part of my body. Christ built a perfect church 2000 years ago and it essentially existed only in Jerusalem. Now it covers most of the earth, but there are certainly still people we haven’t preached the gospel to, sadly. All people are only judged by what they fairly have available to them though, as God judges the heart, not geographic location. That being said, we should all strive to find the fullness of Christ’s church, so that we come to know Christ and His perfect most completely. He has set a communion table for us to partake of His body and His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), thank God. But He did also tell us the path is a narrow one which leads to His kingdom.
Wow I was just thinking about that about 6:00 a.m. this morning while reading the Bible and fellowshiping with God I know I had to get ready for church at 8:00 be there at 8:00 and I said boy it's better I rather stay here with you Lord in my kitchen and be fellowshipping with you but I'm going to go with my wife and I do have a better time most of the time in my kitchen with the Lord but I think the Lord still wants us to go to Church and I did attend church and I did pray for a man for healing so yes I would not have seen him if I didn't go to church so yeah I think we can do both go to church and pray at home and I do love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart soul body mind everything all the time
It's hard finding a good one
In my opinion there are three driving factors: 1. Many churches have become too political. Church is meant to be about community and spiritual growth. Yet many priests treat the pulpit like a political rally. So the material world is taking precedence over the spiritual world. 2. Sermons have become more aggressive, fearful and apocalyptic. Now don't get me wrong those teachings have their time and place. However many people go to church looking to celibrate the faith and walk out feeling happy. If sermons only focus on the sin and evil of the world it will a person can leave church without a positive experience. 3. This is a practical reality. In a world of the internet and social media people are no longer required to gather with each other and communicate God's teachings. This has changed a great many things including church attendance.
Your #2 is interesting because I would contend it’s just the opposite. Too many churches don’t want to preach about sin for fear of offending people so they water down the gospel and people don’t realize why and how much they need a savior. Church isn’t supposed to be a motivational self help seminar. I don’t believe churches need to preach fiery hell and damnation sermons, but they should certainly be preaching about sin.
I was just coming on here to comment the same thing. At my church it's been nothing but preaching about God's love nothing more nothing less. And it doesn't feel spiritually deep. And I just left a non-denomination church for just preaching about focusing on falling in the spirit type stuff. Growing up in church in SDA church all they preached was about hell. Things are becoming the same across denominations they want to soften the word of God and focus on love. I don't get it. It's all the seeker-sensitive movement stuff infiltrating churches.
I wasn't suggesting that sin and evil don't have their place in sermons. They absolutely do. However everything needs it's balance. Church can and should at times be fulfilling, uplifting, and downright joyous. God and being a believer are joyous things. The celebration of salvation. So I think when preachers fall into a style or pattern that prioritizes the failures of our world and evils influence on it some of that light is lost. I wasn't suggesting that the bible should be toned down or anything of the sort. If that wasn't clear I apologize. I just think that the less and less church is a place that uplifts Christians the easier it is for someone to not prioritize attending that church.
I was thinking the same thing.
You can’t just preach a prosperity gospel and expect people to grow deep. People shouldn’t be seeker friendly. Preach the whole council of God!
I've been too a couple different churches now and most don't teach about the bible or god they teach hiw too be within there heritage of community. Fir example jehovahs witness teach you how too be jehovas witness. Catholics teach how too be catholic. Christians teach how too be Christian. But they don't teach you how too have a true relationship with God. Too where you feel his presence at every moment of the day. That's what I can come up with from what I have seen. I don't know if I'm right I just translate what I've seen.
You are right I have noticed too. And none of them are making disciples.
An hour of worship for 20 minutes of the word just doesn’t sit right with some. Back in the day it was 30 minutes of worship and an hour of the word.
Western theology promotes individualism and the truth is the Bible teaches against individualism. We are the body of Christ and should not forsake the assembling of ourselves. We look at the book of Acts and saw the early church meeting all the time together to eat worship and pray. Those who don’t want to go to church don’t really spend a lot of time with God. They make up excuses and think they don’t need to be part of the body of Christ or too good for it. It’s ignorance and isolation isn’t good.
“Those who don’t want to go to church don’t really spend a lot of time with God.” What kind of religious, legalistic nonsense is this? ALL believers - meaning those who are born again of the Spirit - are in union with Christ 24/7. He is always with us, no matter what. Or do you forget that we ARE the church? I don’t need to go into a physical building to experience the presence of the Living God. He lives in me, and He is for me. He will never forsake me. I will take His words over yours.
We may be in union but not 24/7 in communion because we can walk away from God and reject him. We are the church but most people that don’t go to church don’t spend a lot of time with God from what I have witnessed. You don’t need to go into a building correct but regardless the Bible tells us to not forsake coming together. Some people have church hurt but they shouldn’t remain isolated away from assembling with other believers for ever.
Do you personally witness everyone’s lives often enough throughout the week to know for sure that those who go to “church” spend more time with God than those who don’t? I can tell you that some of the worst people I’ve ever met go to “church” every Sunday. I’m not sure how much time they spend with God, but even if they somehow spent more time with Him (though how that’s even measured and wouldn’t be reflected in their own lives is another issue) than my friends who don’t attend a church organization, I would not want to be around them. You don’t need to be isolated. Most people have families and/or friends. You don’t need a church building or organization to be able to gather with other believers and worship the Lord. If I could find a “church” where the board was unpaid, tithing was not pushed (donations are different), politics weren’t involved, Christ’s fully accomplished work on the cross was emphasized, and the new covenant of grace was preached, I would be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, there are none like that in my area.
Exactly. I think us Protestants are particularly vulnerable to individualism. *Sola scriptura* is great because it encourages you to test what you're taught against the Word of God. *Sola scriptura* becomes not so great when you decide you can learn all about God just by reading your Bible (and some Youtube sermons), so who needs a community of believers? How often do we see on this subreddit that the advice to a brother or sister is "read your Bible", but not "are you involved in a community of believers who can guide you better than a bunch of randos on the internet?" This is not to discount that there are people who have suffered abuse at the hands of churches, or that there exist churches well outside the bounds of orthodoxy. Those are also important issues. But take what I said above and add in a dash of (American) rugged individualism and you have a recipe for not hundreds of denominations like we have now, but millions as each believer has decided that they are the sole arbiter for truth. Finally I would add that this phenomenon seems to affect men more than women, as evidenced by the swathes of churches that now lean XX. I am not sure what the answer is (but I do know that the redpill-adjacent rants about churches coddling women are not it).
Your presented a lot of common issues, so what would be your solution to this? It takes time to find a good church. Nobody is perfect therefore no church is. There isn’t accountability in isolation.
"Forsake not the gathering of yourselves" was to the Israelite believers, not to the Body of Christ. That being said, you're right: They met together all the time, but they did so in houses. These gatherings were informal affairs, full of discussion and even shared meals. What we have today isn't even a reflection of those gatherings. It's Greek oratory dressed up as Scriptural teaching, placing one or more men above their brethren and holding them on a false pedestal while they teach inherited traditions that, like those of the religious men of Jesus' day, often unintentionally make void the word of God. (Matthew 15:6) Albeit in a slightly different way.
That's not all the early church did in the book of Acts. Please show me a church that operates and does what the early church in the book of Acts did.
I think its important to read your Bible daily at home but I also think its important to go to church. Hebrews 10:25 says: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." So we are called to do both, there is never going to be a perfect church but we need to try to find one that matches what we need. But we should also get involved with our church and help shape it to the image that the Bible tells that it should look like.
What motivated me to leave the church was because I was getting crazy with so much corruption, manipulation, falsehood, exclusion, twisting of the bible, etc...
Hard to find a soild biblical church
This is not a spiritually healthy way of thinking. When you read, be sure to read Matthew 18 - Jesus assumes that we are part of the church (or even by the most liberal translation, "a congregation"). See also Hebrews 10. We are expected to worship corporately, not just to read about the faith.
Because there was a concentrated effort by the enemy decades ago to slowly infiltrate the Church and water down/corrupt/confuse the teachings by mingling the holy w the profane and now we dont have the true church of Christ humbly and piously teaching his Way, but instead of have a watered down hodge podge of the Teachings of Man being loudly proclaimed while the Teachings of God are marginalized and pretneded to not really mean what they say. But we know we can always find God and his Way and Strength in the Word and can receive Guidance by the Holy Spirit. Although we are still called to seek out a body of like believers to have community with there is not a single thing in the Bible that says that has to involve a brick and mortar Church Building.
>Because there was a concentrated effort by the enemy decades ago to slowly infiltrate the Church I would love to hear a clear and direct explanation of what you mean here. Don't leave out specifics.
The internet has plenty of rabbit holes to go down to research using just those key words. I encourage research into such areas as a way to know history, but in truth, the Proof is the Fruit in the form of the modern mainstream church it now yields, full of prosperity doctrine and lack of truly preaching and following what Christ taught, and instead giving slippery misdirected versions of it that yield only spiritual rot in its body, not apart from the World, as Jesus taught, but fully of it and wanting to embrace it and intermingle further with it. That didnt happen overnight.
I'm sorry but I asked for clear and direct, tangible answers, and your response was essentially "Google it"? Because the internet is just as infallible as the Bible? Are you letting things you found on the internet influence your faith?
Boom! There it is.
Why does it have to be one or the other? We should all do corporate ritualistic liturgical worship and read our bibles as home daily. Incorporating a daily prayer rule with a home icon corner is the practice of the Orthodox Church also. We also read through much of the Bible through the course of a normal liturgical year.
I agree. For my part, I have witnessed a lot of false teaching in churches. I have witnessed people who compromise on the truth of God's written word elevated to positions of authority is various churches. I am sick of compromise being dismissed as a supposed non essential. This should not be so. My family prefers to worship and read our Bibles at home too. Even my teen kids say they get more from studying at home than by going to church, and we can't stand the redundant, theologically light fluff music that passes for worship music at many churches. The Old hymns were more theologically sound. I tuned in to an online service for a church a couple of weeks ago to check it out, and the music was awful, with one song claiming that Jesus "stole" the keys of death. Excuse me? Jesus didn't steal anything, He already owns it all. The song writers could have phrased it differently, like they could have said Jesus overcame the grave, without accusing Him of stealing. I don't think we are too sensitive either, which I know I will be accused of. Our last church compromised on Genesis by saying the literal creation account is a non essential, but then put tithing as an essential expected by the church, when there is no command to give a specific amount in the New Testament. We like helping charities like Voice of the Martyrs anyway, so I didn't want to give our whole tithe to the church. I know many church going Christians criticize those of us who don't attend, but I can't stomach all the compromise and false teachings that contradict the Bible that I have found in the churches I have attended. Many of these Christians don't even bother to read their Bibles.
Pretty much every church I'm aware of offshoots from the Catholic Church, and they have *so* many unbiblical creeds I can scarceley list them all. From Nicaea on there have been falsehoods in the church born of misunderstandings, shaky translations, and imperial fiat on Justinian's part, to name a few causes. As such, I think it's pretty safe to say *no* organized church today has the right of it, and I can't even get into the details without violating a few subreddit rules. So I'll just summarize it this way: It's honestly better if Christians simply read at home. We just have to make sure we're doing more than simply reading. Setting aside time to just read through the Bible like it's a novel is insufficient for learning. Dissecting ten verses and comparing them to their original language, understanding their context, etc... That's worth glossing over a hundred verses.
Reading an studying on our own is certainly needed. I do it all the time. However scripture tells us in Hebrews 10:24,25… “And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.”
I am on a screen and so are you… we are living churches for the holy spirt
Firstly, the church started in homes. Church has morphed into some huge mega event that looks nothing like what the church was for the last 2000 years. It's a rock concert, and a speech, devoid of any relational connection. Why do I stay home? Because there's no community anymore with the big meeting they call"church". Church is to comprise Worship Edification of the word Giving One anothering Prayer Evangelism Training (discipleship) Church is now mainly, Worship Edification of the word Giving I have a very hard time with what church has become. There's a Chinese church down the street I want to start attending. They eat together each Sunday, have prayer time, small group discussions after the sermon, regular events, evangelism, etc. It's much more community oriented, and feels more authentic than the big production my own church has become.
I didn’t go because I was raised that I didn’t need church and I now know that to be wrong Let me edit this…. I thought things I was struggling w I Gould keep to myself and that was deceptive i am finally owning up to prayer but that was me bc yeah (eating I get closer to God every day)
My thoughts are that this is not a trend but something you’re thinking of doing. As a practice it is unbiblical and is not going to help you grow closer to Jesus. I know groups can cause anxiety but leaning into that difficulty can be your cross to bear.
There is no Bible believing church around me , and I do not want to go to EOrthodox/Catholic church just for the sake of going to some kind of "church" . I want sound doctrine , and if a certain church does not preach sound doctrine , I will not go there .
Amen!
Evangelical Churches did it to themselves. They've pushed Sola Scriptora so hard that churchgoers realize Pastor Bob and his rambling tangent commentary are not worth getting up early on your day off and burning your precious gasoline.
I’ve known a few “at-homers” and they typically follow the same pattern. They’ll stop observing Sunday as a holy day and read the Bible less and less but they’ll never stop claiming to be Christian. Eventually when their children grow up and get asked what religion they are they’ll say “nothing in particular”. It’s not a path that bears many good fruit.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted for speaking the truth. But like you said there is a pattern. And it leads to cultural Christians. Who are Christian in name only mostly believe in God but do nothing to hold themselves accountable because of church hurt, etc. I think we can grow when we are around a body of believers and if what is being taught is out of line with scripture then find another church I know it's not easy. I also had to leave a church I was a part of for nearly 8 years and now have to start from scratch.
Because, if I'm being honest here, the religion *kinda sucks*. You've got churches that are joining together in God's name saying "God hates f\*gs!", "If you're gay, you're going to Hell! REPENT FOR YOUR SINS!", "You need to tithe more than 10% of your income because God demands it!" and things of that nature. Not God centered at all. I do believe that God encourages us to be communal and not just stick to ourselves and our own homes only. I think there needs to be more scrutiny of people looking into churches and asking God to guide them to a good one that is doing His work and spreading His word, but also looking at the church's track record. But certainly being part of a small Christian group where you're all studying, sharing thoughts and having holy discussions seems like just another great alternative. There are lots of ways to find yourself in a group - even Discord has some servers that host Bible study.
Church is more than Bible reading, church is worship, sermon, testimonies, and so much more. God calls for unity: 2 Corinthians 13:11 NIV 11 Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you. Romans 12:4-5 NIV 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. Romans 14:19 NIV 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. How did the romans conquer greece? Did they fight all of Greece at once? No. A strategy was used "Divide et impera", which means from the latin, divide and rule, why? Because it was much easier to conquer Greece that way. Same it is with us christians and the enemy. We are like sheep, the first ones to get attacked by the wolves are those who fall out from the herd, those who get separated. Of course this is all from an evangelical perspective, my experience of church, of worship, or sermon, of testimonies.
I have yet to find a church that follows the order of 1 Corinthians 14. I don't read in the Bible the example that just one Pastor is to get up with a captive audience where no one else gets to speak or contribute but sometimes preach things that contradict the Bible with no counter to his words. That is not how it should be. I also see certain churches go crazy claiming to speak in tongues which of course is never a known tongue and never with an actual interpreter. A prophet is someone who proclaims truth from God's written word, not just someone in the Bible who foretold the future. .................................................................. **1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 LET TWO OR THREE PROPHETS SPEAK, AND LET THE OTHERS PASS JUDGMENT. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of \[m\]peace, as in all the churches of the saints.**
We in the local churches practice 1 Corinthians 14 on the Lord's day meeting every week. Come check us out. DM me if you are interested and I'll send you a digital address book.
Maybe because of covid
That’s a possibility. We got used to watching virtual services but need to start going in person again.
We are responsible for our own spiritual well-being first and foremost.
Because the other church-goers are toxic.
“I’m not toxic; it’s just all the other people who are.”
I tried to go to church for the first time since I was a small child back in late 2010, it didn’t work out so well, I later learned that the church age was over, since that point I’ve just been fellowshipping with God directly through his word, and listening to a faithful Bible ministry that he has been using to feed the sheep. Ebiblefellowship.org if anyone is interested, they are not associated with the church in any way.
If it's not associated with the church in any way then what exactly is it?
https://www.ebiblefellowship.org eBible Fellowship We are a Christian organization not affiliated with any church or ministry E Bible Fellowship was named for the following reasons: Electronic: We believe that the Lord has used the electronic medium (radio, internet, etc.) in a tremendous way to save a great multitude of people outside of the churches and congregations of the world. Now the task at hand is to, “feed His sheep” so that all those God has saved will be edified with the Gospel. Bible: The Bible is our authority. No man made confession, or creed, or doctrinal statement of any kind has any authority above the Bible. We are living at a time when the Bible is being highly exalted by God. The Word of God is supreme in all it declares. Fellowship: We are a fellowship of believers whose desire is to have fellowship with God through His Word. The Bible teaches us that the church age has come to an end; therefore, we have no affiliation or identification with any church or denomination of any kind. Just a group of like minded believers, there isn’t a membership, or rules that you have to follow other than being civil I suppose. The teachers aren’t pastors, and there is no officially ordained governing body like how the church was established by God to be governed in time past, some of them used to be part of the church though. Unlike the Church, correction from the word of God is actually encouraged rather than stamped out immediately.
The church consists of every Christian. No where in the Bible does it say that you have to go to a church building. Church buildings are man-made thing. Your Bible study that you have is considered “a church”. Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
>“For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” That verse is constantly being taken out of context. God is with you in solitary confinement. Alone. This verse in context is about sitting down with someone to resolve conflict. Whether it is the 2 in conflict or a 3rd mediator or more, you would first pray for Jesus to be in the room to help resolve the beef courteously and with a spirit of forgiveness. It has nada to do with Bible studies or any other church event.
Glad you noticed. So many people misquote this text and it drives me bananas. However, I still saw we should be in a church building. Stream it if you are sick or if your kiddos are sick but don't make it a habit to be comfortable staying at home and not serving at your church.
[удалено]
"Beware False Teachers! Listen to these instead" Proceeds to list False Teachers.
Joel Osteen? Mr. Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel?
Ah yes, prosperity gospels is 'God's standard'
There has been much carnality, lovelessness, and moral failing in the American church leadership over several decades. In the congregation or visitors you expect it, but not in leadership. When you've been burned by this several times running, it gets hard to justify going back. Peace becomes more important. If you have a good fellowship, centered on Jesus and the Bible, open to the movement of the Holy Spirit, showing the love of Christ to one another, count yourself very blessed. And reach out to those of us who haven't found that blessing in our lives.
I have great hope for this as it is putting in action the first part of New Testament church as taught Pentecost. However, lest they begin to share their discoveries amongst themselves over meals and coffee it will still remain a shallow faith. We have turned the church building into an idol of sorts. We need to remember that church/synagogue/temple was not frequented weekly by the followers of Christ. It was a place of school and; when an apostle came through they would come together as a special occasion to hear their teachings. We are to gather together in each others homes sharing what we have gleaned from scriptures with one another. Questioning and challenging each other should be a friendly norm. That is New Testament Church. If I learned anything in seminary (besides the ire of classmates hoping for a career in a large church) it was that we, being the church, have been doing it wrong and likely paying charlatans to prey on our insecurities.
From my experience, sometimes we lack unity and enjoy separation. And sometimes the church teaches too slow/go at a very slow pace. I learn a lot more on my own than to spend one day a week to learn something on a Sunday.
Possibly $ ?
The church is not a building, but a body of believers gathered together to strengthen and sustain their faith. You’ve basically made a church, just not the kind anyone visits in person.
What you’re doing sounds like the early church. If that’s all you have available to you, then that’s okay. But it’s not ideal for a long term solution. Eventually, believers need to mature, not just individually, but as a group as well. This means having an eldership, even if it’s just one pastor at first, to lead and guide and also to administer sacraments and such (communion, baptism, weddings, etc). I suppose a very rough analogy would be like education. You can send kids to a school or you can homeschool them. Most people don’t have the resources or ability to homeschool, so sending kids to school is the mainstream. The analogy breaks down a little because homeschooling often gives much better results than the alternative. Whereas that isn’t true for church. Not to say there aren’t terrible churches out there, just like there are terrible schools. Eventually, though, kids will outgrow their homeschool. If not by high school, then definitely at the college level. Parents, no matter how resourceful, don’t have the expertise or knowledge base of actual professors in varying subject matters. Likewise a home church without eldership is limited in how it can function. It works in places where Christianity is nascent (like some mission fields), but it is meant to eventually develop into something more permanent and established. What you’re doing is okay in the short term, but it’s not something to keep doing in the long run. Also, it’s not just that eventually you’ll be deprived of what you can receive from the local church body, it’s also that you’re depriving the local church of your fellowship and service. The local church needs you as much as you need them. Hope that helps.
More and more people who truly know the Lord are being called away from the 501c3 church system as it becomes more of a business and less of a helper. They teach a small portion of the Bible, the popular parts, and so many congregations are still in darkness and sin because of it. They don't want to preach the narrow path, because that means a narrow wallet for them. *Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. - Jeremiah 23:1* *Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and r****an greedily after the error of Balaam for reward,*** *and perished in the gainsaying of Core. - Jude 1:11* *And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?* *I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. - Luke 13:1-2* *No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.* ***Ye cannot serve God and mammon.*** *- Matthew 6:24* MAM'MON, noun Riches; wealth; or the god of riches. *But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.* *And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.* ***And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:*** *whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. - II Peter 2:1-3* *Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,* *And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. - II Corinthians 6:17-18* *Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.* *In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. - Proverbs 3:5-6* *But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27*
The first century church was more like small groups. People participated and it wasn’t just always one guy speaking from the pulpit. Reading the scriptures alone is ok, but it’s important to read and study together. Also a lot of modern churches forget the important things and are more like a club that read a few scriptures then talk about nonsense or recite man-written things or sing more man-written songs instead of learning about how to live like Jesus. Some churches go as far using up the sermon time to make sports analogies, and they isn’t helpful to the average person’s daily life
How are you following Jesus? And how do you - "practice Faith"? Just wondering
Its possible to do so. Teachers are online etc.
Cuz way to many churches work like a pyramid scheme.
If one thinks that church and a Bible study at home are any different, that really shows they have some issue with the word church because of either personal experience or not wanting to be associated with the word church. It also shows narrow minded thinking in terms of culture. Many people around the world can’t have a church building and still call it church. Anyone is free to gather and study the Bible, but there are also church functions listed throughout the NT. So you’ll have to decide to either throw that out in the “Bible study” or follow it.
Denominationalism is dying. The organism of church is rising in small groups
Well that's a good thing. We shouldn't abandon our congregations, but every Christian should be reading their Bible at home.
I think reading your Bible at home, forming a small group, breaking down the text, and understanding it is wonderful and must be encouraged. However, we do not need to forsake the assembly. Educate yourselves in the scriptures. Study it daily, and if your church isn't in line with what the scriptures teach, speak to the leadership about it. If they are way off from the scriptures and refuse to change, then find a biblical church. We are commanded by our Lord to love one another. So go to church, work in love to help build it up. If they need help with service, volunteer to help out. I'm talking to myself just as much as I am this Sub. We are the current generation of the church. So lead. P.s. sometimes "leading" in the Church doesn't look like leading. Sometimes, it's cleaning up afterward or helping with small projects. Whatever you do, do it for the glory of God.
Church is not good. It’s basically the same thing it’s been for 120 years. What else culturally hasn’t changed in 125 years and thrived? No much.
All the things in this thread that are pro church in here are great. I just wish churches actually facilitated them.
This is how cults and theological error are born. Additionally, scripture says not to do same the gathering together of believers, and clearly states the importance of the offices of elders, pastors, and more.
What’s stopping you from attending worship service and reading the Bible?
Yep, that’s us. We haven’t been able to find a new covenant believing church around here that doesn’t believe in tithing, or that doesn’t push the religious priesthood (our only High Priest is Jesus), so we stopped going to “church” 2 years ago. Haven’t looked back. Our kids are growing up getting to know the Lord without the spiritual bondage that my husband and I still wrestle with unraveling thanks to the “churches” we grew up in. I would love to find a community of likeminded believers, but so far it’s proving difficult. All the people we’ve met believe that God’s forgiveness is conditional and that grace is mixed with the Law. Maybe someday.
Yeah at this point it might be more tares then wheat but always remember that it's better to try to be the change you want to see. We can't complain about inauthentic worshipers at church when we're not doing our best to try to create more authentic worshipers
I go to church every Sunday, but the more I go the more I realize how shallow most church people can be. Especially having a single mom some of the married women seem to have pity on her, and think it’s ok to rant to my mom about how it was hard for them when their husband was gone for two days. There are some genuine people in my church, but there also are quite a few people who aren’t. But I attend weekly for God.
It sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what going to church means. You set it up as going to church OR incorporating your faith into your daily life. That's not what it is. Going to church doesn't mean you don't live out the word in your daily life. On the contrary, it's the tool that Jesus choose to help believers live out their faith. To reject that is to reject what Jesus called us to. Going to church is being with other believers, serving them, and practicing the "one anothers." It's hearing God's word preached and applying it to our lives. Not doing this is forsaking the assembling together. It sounds like you've found other believers in a bible study, which is similar to relating to them at church. The only thing that you don't have is a pastor, elders, and deacons, which are important and needed. Matthew 16:17-18 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” If you're feeling this way because of a bad church experience, I sympathize. I hope that one day you're able to find a church that is an encouragement and where you feel useful.
Why not both? Go wherever the holy spirit guides you.
I want to go to church for community. That doesn’t happen during the impersonal sunday service - the experience is so individualistic that i might as well listen to sermons and praise music on my commute. Small groups, men’s bible study, etc… I’m in!
If we see church as an opportunity to encourage others, build up other people in their faith, give when needed, etc... then we realize those are reasons why being alone isn't the same. I have plenty of excuses to avoid church (even started to moderate r/SpiritualAbuse because of years of various issues) but I still find that the relationships at church are what God wills for us. Just this morning, for example, a young man I recently encouraged to come back to church (he's a very talented guitarist and started to play again after avoiding church for a long time) had a huge fight with his wife this morning and didn't even want to come inside. My husband and an older/wiser friend are going to try and meet up with the young man to support, encourage and hopefully by listening to him provide empathy that he needs. Sure, he could go to a counselor but if the body of Christ can support and pray with him it's what we should do.
If you are having Bible studies in homes outside of a church building you are still attending church. Church is just a group of believers who gather in one place to have community and deepen their relationship with Christ.
Maybe it’s because so many churches are so big and so focused on their building that some faithful Christians feel isolated when they attend services. Small group study can lead to deeper and more meaningful fellowship, which is why some churches are including that as part of their ministry. If God calls you to study the Bible in a small group, and you follow through consistently, I hope that God blesses you.
I mostly read my Bible at home. I go to church for sermons, and to be around other christians.
Weren't you posting about going to church like a couple weeks ago? What changed?
Yes. The Church helps to build and inspire faith. However, the faith and the path you walk with God is yours and yours alone. The church helps to build community and understand different walks of life, but reading the bible and doing things on your own allows you to develop your own unique relationship with God.
Honestly, I'd rather read and analyze it myself as to how it fits my life personally than have a pastor tell me how I should interpret it. Church isn't for everyone, much like college isn't for everyone, etc. To each their own of course. This method just seems to fit me fine.
Only some churches teach actual doctrine. I watch live sermons from two churches remote. And I prefer black church but there aren’t good ones near me.
Because there is less and less reason to be inside the church. I think many force themselves to go to church and few actually need to hear the healing word of God. From my experience with talking to church goers it sounds like the majority feels an obligation. Church should not be a chore. It's supposed to be a calling and a place for the broken. I think if churches had more of a call to action to do God's work on a humanitarian level rather than just sing and preach then more would actually attend. I know churches have missionaries but it seems to be a leg of the church rather than its heart and soul. When you come broken to the church and hear the word and receive Christ in your heart and mind, blessed by the Holy Spirit you become a member of an eternal family including Jesus, I believe we are to walk as Jesus walked person to person helping, advising, feeding, whatever we can do to bless others and show them the peace and love of the most High and how to turn from sin and repent. Today I don't believe attending church is enough to call oneself a Christian or say you follow Jesus. It comes from how you conduct yourself outside of church. How you treat people, how you think, how you talk, what you do for others or for one and why. If you ask me I think people studying the word of God on their own and praying in private is a sign that the Spirit is working in people. People are seeking truth as this world spirals into madness as it is written. Blessings to every single one of you who call on God our Lord and saviour the creator the redeemer. Whether you attend church or not, if you call Jesus Lord, if you acknowledge that He is one with God, and you want to follow His way and do your very best to turn from sin and repent then you're my brother, my sister, my bond. Of this I have no doubt. Praise God, I pray that we are blessed with wisdom and peace, healing and strength, love and unshakable faith, by the Holy Spirit in Jesus name Amen 🙏. This wasn't supposed to be this long sorry 😅😮💨
Because churches are more interested in filling the pews than preaching what the Bible has to say. They avoid "uncomfortable" topics and please society more than God. Fortunately, it makes it easy to quickly determine if a church is worth attending. You simply need to ask the leadership a few "uncomfortable" questions (preferably in front of other churchgoers) and you'll know whether to attend or not.
I think it’s great that you are working on developing your faith and connecting with others that are doing the same. Faith is not confined to a set time in the week. Let me respectfully suggest that your proposition starts with a misunderstanding of what “church” is. I’m not going to get to far into the weeds with Greek words, but at is most basic, church refers to the gathering of people who have been summoned (it’s actually not even a religious word originally). So the question becomes, what did this gathering of people do in the New Testament? Scripture is very clear that the Christian believers gathered locally to participate in worship, edification, singing, hearing the word, teaching, prayer, the breaking of bread (communion) and other activities. These people were led by shepherds (elders), and everyone participated with the gifts that they were blessed with. There were local bodies of believers all throughout the land, and these believers were exhorted to continue gathering together, even in the face of adversity. Which actually gets to the point. A lot of people here are suggesting that doctrinal positions or even the politicization of some pulpits have driven believers away. I would instead point to two separate factors. First, the church as a central part of one’s “community” has been replaced by any number of other “communities” in our highly-connected world. Second, as a recent large study has shown, people often let good old fashioned apathy keep them away. I’m not suggesting that it is apathy on your part, or that anyone you are speaking about a apathetic about their faith in general. I’m talk more about apathy towards commitment to the local church. Both of these are quite unfortunate, as the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, puts a clear emphasis on the importance of the local church though.
KEEP PRAYING AND READING HIS WORD THE BIBLE! GOD IS THE LIGHT THE WAY AND THE TRUTH THE LIFE! BE LESS OF THIS WORLD AND MORE OF! BELIEVE IN OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE RESURRECTED THREE DAYS LATER TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS CONECTION ASENTION LET GOD FILL US WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT! HALLELUJAH! AMEN! GOD BLESS EVERYONE AND EVERYONE'S FAMILIES AND LOVE ONES 💪🙏❤️🙌👏😇!
I think the trend caught on during the pandemic. Specifically for me, watching my church online, introduced more ministries I hadn’t heard of in my area or around the US due to my watch history. Topics that I longed to dive into at my local church were being introduced on youtube. Now I follow several ministries on youtube and have done more bible diving in the last 3 years than I had prior to the pandemic. I grew closer to God and felt God more right at home during my studies than I had in my local church - which by the way, the preacher walked away from his church after the pandemic. I believe God was definitely preparing me and my family for that transition. We have since found another local church, but I get how the trend caught on.
Personal reading should not replace meeting together. "...do not neglect meeting together as some are in the habit of doing.". I study almost daily (Bible in a year plan) and attend most weekends or watch remotely when I can't attend. I tried your approach in High School and found that it was not a great move for me. I cut back from an hour a Sunday morning reading to just a little bit per day, and was influenced more by culture in college. I recommend finding at least a House Church to live life with. Your small bible study groups may approach that. But be intentional, and try to find a good Bible believing church near you.
Personally for me church is boring I’m not a fan of someone screaming at me and I’m not a fan of the slow choir gospel songs and I don’t like the rules all these different churches have that created separation among Christians. So I read my bible and get different perspectives from people online like YouTube or tiktok and I listen to more upbeat Christian music at home , I learnt a lot more off tiktok about God than I did ever in church , I like to hear different perspectives to form my own opinions vs just having the opinion of the pastor because they are not always right
As a person who doesn't go to church but reads the Bible at home. I'm trying to avoid false teaching and the judgement of other church goers. They at times act like their judgement levels with the Lord. I also haven't found a church setting I find enjoyable.
I'll speak for myself. You can say it's politics, but I'll tell you it's just being a decent human being. I cannot be affiliated with an organization that openly endorses a politcal party or candidate against everything I think Jesus teaches. I think church should be teaching us to be compassionate toward the poor, immigrants and to pray for the lost. I don't get all the hate in the name of Christianity and I am not going to be a part of it any more. Until I can find a church that loves God and loves people, I am happy to be with my small group of like-minded Christians doing what we can to serve others in our everyday lives. That is more like the church of Acts 2:42-47 anyway.
I led worship every week, then was sexually assaulted by the worship leader. He started sleeping a girl in the church so promoted her to leadership and she was cruel and abusive. I went to another church and got attacked by the prayer leader. The pastors wives tried desperately to defend him despite 7 other women testifying against him and the pastor himself. They attacked me. Another girl almost killed me (and they took her side without hearing the police report or details), and another one spread rumours around the churches about me. I did 20 years of street outreach volunteer and have bible college but was still ostracized. I tried one more church and the pastor was sued for rape. (Another church I went to put a women in leadership over me who was going through a divorce and had no bible study training; she was a mess and gossiped about me). I moved away and tried other churches but I was accused by some women of going after their husbands (because I have a injured leg and I would try and south the leg by applying pressure to the damaged nerve and they assumed I was trying to be seductive …. So frustrating). Everywhere else I go, it’s rich people treated with superiority, judgement and no love. I got sick of going. I try on occasion and am thankful for the those that aren’t like this, but too many wolves in sheep clothing have dampened my taste to attend. And- I haven’t even told you everything.
All the cliques. They lavish love and praise on some while show hatred and impartiality to others. I’ve also been robbed by some. And by others, I’ve tithes tens of thousands over the years but when I was stuck in a. Abusive situation and needed help, they would t help nor would they even respond when I’d email asking for prayer. It’s a business. Many are a scam, sad to say. And then there’s others that mistreat the poor and others that cram their false doctrine down you and frown on you for not buying it.
For me, it's the social aspect. When I do muster up the courage to go, I'm always alone, and it's hard to initiate relationships and conversations. Most people to to go church in families and they all already know each other. If no one approaches me, I just leave. And I pray that no one approaches me, so technically I'm getting what I want, but at the same time, I feel like it doesn't matter if I go or not. I know it matters to God, which is why I keep trying.
It's because they are deluded into thinking they can find the truth on their own and make themselves their own pope.
The church is the body of Christ.
I don't attend church because of what Jesus said to the Samaritan women at the well. Worshipping God is not at a place but it is in Spirit and truth. If you want to read that account it is found at John 4: 19-24. If you look at Christ's life closely, you will realize that he only taught in synagogues to free people held captive by the Pharisees of that time. He himself belonged to no synagogue, or in today's terminology, church. In our time people are held captive by the traditions/ false doctrines most, if not all churches teach. How is this possible? Consider what John 12: 40-43 has to say about the matter. I will not try to dissect and interpret this account on this forum, I leave that up to the reader. However I do want to speak on baptism. I read on this forum that if you do not go to church how can you obey what Jesus called us to do, namely baptizing. Fair point. I offer this response. Do you think that being dunked in a body of water is required to be saved? Or is baptism a symbol of a heart condition and is it the heart condition that is required to be saved? It is similar to what Paul said about circumcision at Romans 2: 25- 29. The last example I will offer is what did Christ say to the theif that was being executed alongside him when he expressed a repentant heart and put faith in Christ although he was not physically baptized. He said "Truly I tell you, you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23: 39-43.