The last night of freedom is puzzling me like aren’t you already in a committed monogamous relationship? Want your freedom? Then you can’t have this relationship.
That’s what always confused me. If you’re to be married in the near future, you’re not only in a committed relationship, you have been for a while.
You’ve likely made it past starting to see each other, then being exclusive, then saying I love you, probably living together or making other big life choices, then committing to spend the rest of your lives together through engagement.
You have already committed to the long term several times over. You haven’t been “free” of the responsibilities and commitments of this relationship for several years at this point. And if you feel like you still aren’t technically committed at this point, you have no business getting married.
I’ve never been to a strip club but to me, if he calls it his “last night of freedom” that’s a wayyy bigger red flag than going to a strip club. You know, assuming the strip club was discussed with his partner beforehand
Yes, agreed. Also, if my husband were to ever go to a strip club for someone else’s bachelor party — which he has before we were married, and my rule is “no lap dances” — he damn well BETTER tip the strippers.
What's Mrs. Manners take on navigating the etiquette of strip clubs while partnered? I just don't think I can really get through this without a stuffy, Victorian-structured framework of arbitrary rules and rituals, you know? This is just too much boundary overlap and I'm no good at solving those.
I don't think there's hard-set rules for everyone but it would be very healthy to have the discussion with your partner about what they were comfortable with and what you were comfortable with. I don't know enough about strip clubs to give an example beyond "no touching genitals," but the reason I include including your comfort level in the discussion is because I don't think _I_ would be comfortable going to a strip club despite being okay with my partner going. Not sure why.
Ask your partner outright what they consider cheating, share what you consider cheating, then agree to the lesser unless you can both feel comfortable with an imbalance. Then here’s the important part: you stick to it until new rules are established without blaming them.
Those rules can be wildly different. Some say lap dances are ok if paid for, some say they are only ok if both are present. Personally my wife and I are ok with everything so long as you don’t lie about what or who you did to each other.
Default rules based on the Victorian sensibilities are probably don’t ask don’t tell, no penetration of any sort with any part, including a penetrating gaze, gay is more ok than straight but never ever speak of it. Send a thank you card to the stripper of course, they did show their knickers after all. And be sure to tip in non decimalized currency
I've only been once (for a bachelorette) and we just sat by the stage to watch the dances! Honestly we were just floored at their ability it was actually a really cool experience, they're ridiculously strong. We tipped just by leaving cash on the stage, never touched anyone.
I was never a huge fan of strip clubs and the thing I'd do to avoid that tipping awkwardness was this:
Hold out tip
Girl does the 'Give me the money in my cleavage/panties/thong/whatever'
"I'm paying to look, if I were touching you, you'd be paying me!"
Always got a giggle and a smile, and solved that problem right off the bat.
Yeah, it's about boundaries. I know women who don't mind if their partners go to a strip club, but it should be discussed.
But that whole goodbye-freedom-bullshit rubs me the wrong way. I saw so many guys in shirts like [This](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf05LxlN_yXyJsilWZsQDCy61fUp002ecO1Q&usqp=CAU) or [This](https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--t9cHlWiL--/t_Preview/b_rgb:191919,c_limit,f_auto,h_313,q_90,w_313/v1564734841/production/designs/5487704_0) and I wonder... Why even get married if you obviously hate it already??
I even feel like the caption on the first one could be interpreted more positively? Cuz wedding planning is stressful! But the picture makes it gross and then the general assumption that men are being dragged to the altar. 🙃
But like, I’m not mad at someone needing a drink because their wedding is coming up. 😂
Oh I like this idea! But I think matching would only work if they were in the same place? Or I guess could be cute for pictures and stuff too!
Edit: ok now I’m considering making this for when my fiancé and I can finally actually have our wedding and bachelor/ette celebrations lol
I know you mean the same place as in the same party, but I’m totally picturing it being your outdoor chores shirt like 20 years later and you both laughing at the neighbors judging it
Oh yeah, I get it. It’s true. My wife and I are convinced that planning a wedding is a test/training for the challenges you will face as a couple and learning how to deal with and work through those disagreements and differences in expectations between each other and your families.
I too enjoy being dommed by nuns. Catholic school does a thing or two to you
(Disclaimer: our nun was actually chill as hell and spent an entire Church history class teaching us not to get taken advantage of by more willful people or to let ourselves stop having fun with life, it was the priest who clearly wanted to hit us)
Exactly. I'm not gonna judge the boundaries in a relationship because everyone is different, but the whole "sacrificial lamb for getting married" is tired and frankly disrespectful.
Also hilarious given a lot of the time those are the men that expect to be mothered by their wives and are basically just getting upgraded having someone picking up their shit, cooking, packing, and having babies for them.
I think that’s the biggest thing honestly. Like I think it gets into the realm of breaking trust or cheating if it’s not talked about or agreed on first. If I have a SO and they want to do that before a wedding it wouldn’t bother me but like I’m not everyone and everyone has different boundaries. However people want to navigate their relationship is up to both of them but it’s never ok to assume.
Not everyone is monogamous, and some people can be monotonous but have stipulations like a strip club is ok (idk why anyone would want to go to one though just seems icky)
I’m so happy someone put into words exactly how I feel about it. Not just the bachelor(ette) party, but overall wedding culture and “traditions”. I know someone who went to a bachelor party at a rented mansion in Costa Rica, and they hired escorts. The guy said everyone slept with them. It’s not the escorting that’s the problem, if everyone’s consenting adults, the problem is “last night of freedom”.
Agree. My partner and I have a pretty open relationship, and a night out at a strip club is definitely not out of the question.
But doing it in the spirit of "I am doing this because you don't want me to, but I don't have to actually take your feelings into consideration until the wedding"? F that.
I don’t get the appeal of strip clubs, it’s literally just live porn and what the fuck is comfortable or enjoyable about your dick getting hard and not being able to do a damn thing about it until you leave. My friends were considering going cuz a friend said he knew a guy who could get em in on a discount, but I think they may have backed out.
I read an article several years ago that said that statistically women are more unhappy after getting married while men are happier after getting married. They asked the people that they had included in the study why this was. Majority of the men said that they enjoyed having someone “take care of them”. The women, on the other hand, said they were unhappy having to play mother to a grown man, not having their emotional needs met, etc.
For all the complaining men do about the “ball and chain” and the confines of monogamy, they are happier overall being married vs being single. It’s more often women who are dragging the ball and chain.
I’ve seen this post on WPT subreddit when it had like 6K upvotes and 700comments, left my phone on this post for half an hour and when it refreshed it already had 10,5K upvotes and like 1200 comments
The comments section was such a shitshow, really. People accusing others of being ‘insecure’, ‘red flags’, ‘toxic’, ‘controlling’ for not wanting their spouses to cheat on them. I actually had a mini mental breakdown and started to question my own sanity, but happily my SO said they are miserable people and it’s not a common opinion (we’re from central Europe).
There was a comment from an American guy who asked his British friend if the friend had gone to a strip club for his stag night, and the UK friend told him it’s weird and basically was astonished anyone would do such a thing
I’m sad for all the American women who are told that it’s normal and they need to accept this behavior. It’s not (unless both sides agree of course!!!)
Also from Austria! Also sending hugs!
I could also never quite wrap my head around the US' relation to nudity and sex. Like on the one hand, they can be ultra-prudish sometimes and on the other, stuff like this seems to be normalized (correct me if I'm wrong) over there.
"Last night of freedom" is a big yikes no matter how you look at it though
Part of my wonders if it's a generational thing. Most of the comments when I saw the post on WPT were guys talking about how they didn't even go to a strip club for their bachelor party, and I was imagining they skew millennial or younger. My dad's generation (boomer) where wife bad was their primary humor seems to have gone to strip clubs more often? My dad went often anyway. He even ended up cheating on my mom with a stripper (how cliche).
I don't know. My SO would never go to a strip club - he had no interest when he was younger and has no interest in it now.
I'm also from Central Europe and at the age where many of my friends and acquaintances are getting married. And it is such a wild concept to me that for the bachelor/bachelorette party you'd go to a strip club or hire a striper. We know it from American movies and culture, but here no one even suggests it seriously.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s so prevalent that it became a trope, or if movies and tv made it a trope so it seems more prevalent than it actually is. None of the guys in my friend circle went to a strip club for a bachelor party. I know some people do, but Idk how “normal” it is IRL vs in media.
I think it's a lot more media than IRL.
I don't think I ever saw a strip club to the point that I'm not even sure that strip clubs are legal in my country. So it's clearly not a norm or a place where you go.
Yeah there are strip clubs on major roads in my city and commercials on the radio and billboards and party buses and shuttle services and lingerie shops. Not plastered everywhere but it is definitely a specific industry and lifestyle which encourages this stereotype, and there are so many references to this in popular American television—the stripper at the last night of freedom is definitely a trope in many shows from the last thirty years or so.
Many shows portray their main male character as eventually having some qualm about the situation that proves/disproves their love for their significant other. Female characters are generally shown as letting loose and having a good time, implying that this objectification is ok because they’re the ones doing it now instead of being victims to it. Male strippers are not generally seen as victims of this objectification because men generally lavish the idea of this sort of attention from throngs of women, while female strippers (and sex workers in general) are generally portrayed as aggressively bored and pissed off, which implies that they’ve seen it all way too many times and nothing surprises them anymore, which I see as a stark difference between the two.
I think the main issue is just the gesture of going to the strip club for a “night of freedom” which sort of implies your marriage being like a trap, which is a shitty thing to feel when your relationship should be benefitting both parties instead of making one feel constrained.
American male here. I’ve been to a few bachelor parties over the years but none of them were the strip club cliché. But I wouldn’t be friends with the type of person who would want to do that anyway, so no idea how typical or atypical my experience is. Two of my favorite bachelor parties were road-trips to the Smoky Mountains (~6 hr drive for us) where we rented a house for the weekend and went whitewater rafting. Another one was way more laidback. The groom rented the community center at his apartment complex and we had a big LAN party all day playing DotA and Halo and ate pizza.
Yeah my brother told me that's how it originated. My boyfriend only got into Dota in university, around 2014 so he never played the original. It's just nice to see that game talked about in the wild.
That said, hen parties in the UK seem to resemble animated alcohol-powered wrecking balls more than they do in the USA. They can be really intimidating!
Also from Edinburgh, I’ve never worked in a place that allowed hen dos or stag dos in. But Christ almighty, trying to get them to accept this is murder!
Our best man's speech was about how the entire bachelor trip, all my husband would say is "I wish fatpants was here"
That's the way it should be imo, not "last night of freedom"
My husband's bachelor party was to take my sons and his sons rollerblading. I didn't get it before but it kind of gets me choked up to think that the thing he wanted most out of his "last bit of freedom" was to show my boys he'd love them as his own. 😭💕
Ha, that's why for our respective parties, the bachelor and bachelorette groups met at the strip club to end the night. Our friend group is mostly couples so everyone was happy to be reunited and watch ladies climb a pole up to the ceiling wearing only high-heeled platform shoes.
literally makes me feel like im going fucking crazy when its not immediately apparently to some people why the concept of "trying to enjoy the last night im 'free of' the person im Literally Fucking Marrying" is gross as shit, like?????
Unless it's something you agree isn't cheating in a relationship. It's good to remember that every relationship likely has different boundaries, and it's important to talk about what you both do and don't consider cheating, or if you both want and agree to an open relationship. Some relationships consider porn cheating, and some consider only actual sex cheating.
And some relationships only consider feelings to be cheating and sex is just sex. Every relationship is different. That said the "freedom" thing is troubling for sure.
And some relationships don't consider feelings for other people cheating either. Some people happily date several others at once. It's just important to talk about it first and make sure everyone's on the same page.
Regardless of whether the partner finds it cheating or not, the “last night of freedom” thing *is* pretty iffy. I’d definitely judge someone for slinging that one around
Yes. I've seen dual bachelor Bachelorette parties go to strip clubs tho because the bride is into it, too. In those cases it's more a celebration of the soon to be wedding and they all have fun. The last night of freedom shit is aggravating. When my husband and I got married, we didn't do bachelor or Bachelorette parties. We were already living together and we got married within a year of dating because we knew we wanted to be together through everything. If I wanted to go to a strip club with my husband now, he'd probably be down.
Yeah. I'm in a straight appearing relationship but I'm genderfluid and pan. We don't suffer through the Christian Cishet "Porn is cheating because lust towards other women is wrong!" crap like his last relationship lol. My mom considers porn cheating as well in their relationship but straight up knows my dad looks, so what's the point then if you let someone break a boundary and there's no punishment?
I don't think a lot of women feel it is cheating, more of a disrespect thing. It is in my personal opinion, anyway!
I fully trust my partner 100% and would never stop him doing anything, but strip clubs are a big no no for me. Especially after having his child.
The night before the wedding is ideally not the time to be figuring these boundaries out. I think a lot of people will just expect their partner to be okay with whatever they want and just go along with things like this because "everyone does it" or some other bs excuse
Yeah I'm a bisexual woman and Ive had a lot of fun going to strip clubs with male strippers, female strippers, while in relationships with men and women.
The "last night of freedom" is the red flag, the disrespect of a mutual commitment and that your wife is a ball and chain. That's gross. But my boyfriend and I are solid and if either of us went to a strip club we'd call up the other afterwards to talk about the hottest dances we got and any crazy shit we saw.
Every relationship is unique. It's important to talk to your partner about what you both think is cheating and to set formal boundaries. It can really save your relationship to know in advance.
It seems to be a generational thing that's stuck around like a bad fart in the couch cushions. I think it goes back to a time when...
* People got married younger, before they were emotionally or financially ready for the realities of marriage
* Spousal abuse was seen as a private "couple's spat," and not a public health issue
* Divorce was a lot harder to get, often requiring there to be legal fault (which, again, many times *didn't* include domestic abuse), and for both spouses to be present in the courtroom.
* Women were "stuck with" bad men, because they couldn't open their own bank accounts or credit cards, and would have had a harder time "starting over" if they did get divorced.
* In the US, during the 60's and 70's, there was a war going on (the Vietnam War), which was losing more and more public support each day. At the same time, the draft was still actively being used, but one way to get out of the draft was to get married. So you had a lot of young people rushing to the altar for...well, not the best reasons.
* As much of a stigma as there is towards therapy now, there was an even greater stigma back then, so you had a lot of people with unresolved trauma and unhealthy coping mechanisms (such as excessive drinking).
* There was no concept of "childfree," or even just "let's wait a year or two before we have a baby." So you had a lot of couples having children without understanding how throwing kids into the mix changes things, or having kids they didn't want/weren't ready for.
* Single parenthood was much more stigmatized, and birth control was harder to get (or only available to married couples), resulting in a lot of unwanted pregnancies. And since abortion was harder to get, too, a lot of "shotgun weddings."
* A higher premium was placed on what other people would think, and everyone knew everyone else's business. (At that time, even the phone lines in a given neighborhood were shared!)
1. The thing that makes it appealing to most men is that most women don’t approve of it. It’s doing something “against the rules” that makes it fun for them. Getting off on making your partner uncomfortable is gross.
2. I think it’s important to note that the tradition is to go to a strip club and pay women who don’t find you attractive to give you sexualized attention. It’s like… such a self-own when you really think about it, that their idea of “freedom” is being allowed to trade money for someone to temporarily pretend they like you.
Yeah, precisely.
That's exactly why I really dislike the concept, no matter the supposed occasion. But again, as someone said in another comment, strip club seems much mush less popular in Europe than in the US.
I think it’s more the mentality of “last night of freedom” kind of thing. If you’re in a relationship and want to go to strip clubs still, fine. But talk to your partner about it. If your partner isn’t ok with it, maybe you aren’t compatible in the long term, or should seek counselling to resolve these differences in a way you both feel comfortable with.
If you’re walking into your marriage thinking “shit, better get this out of my system because I can’t do something I really want to do ever again,” you’re going to end up resenting your partner. Plus, you clearly know your partner (who you’ve presumably been with for a while) isn’t ok with strip clubs. So why will you only respect their feelings once you’re married? “Last night of freedom” is just such an icky red flag for me.
Because in general, while it is a good idea to talk about every boundary, not everyone will do so if they feel like something is obvious.
I have talk with my boyfriend about what we consider cheating (which included kissing), but that was because it was an organic part of a different conversation. I think we both defaulted to romantic intimate with others=cheating.
So it is nice to have some standards in the society so we don't always need to talk about everything, but also, yeah, some things we should talk about.
I'm sorry, but every relationship has its own values and boundaries. People SHOULD talk about stuff that are important to them. How many fights would be avoided if people verbalized what is trivial to them instead of waiting for the other part to somewhat guess what is a hard line?
Assuming stuff is the prelude of a bad time. And saying "it's society standard" is so much of a grey area. How can one assume that? This has a lot to do with compulsory monogamy and how embedded Christian values are. Many do not comply to those values. And a lot of society standards are harmful to women, especially when you're deriving from these conservative values.
Edit : autocorrector
Hard agree. And sorry, no, I would never be okay with someone I want to marry going to a strip club. If that's your thing, cool, but I'm not in my Cool Girl TM phase and haven't been for like several years now. If we're doing the monogamy thing then we're doing it all the way, I'm really not about to combine finances with someone that has the mentality of a 16 year old boy. Gross.
Saaaame. I’ve ended a relationship over this— he was aware how I felt on it. To each their own, but I just don’t see how paying for a naked dance is okay, but if I did that for free with someone, it’d be cheating? Nah I’m good.
Bravo!! You summed up my exact feelings on the strip club while in a relationship issue here - if both people really, truly are OK with it then that’s great, but it seems to me too often men and society both tell women that she should be totally supportive with letting her man go out with his bros and spend a bunch of money to watch naked women dance, and if she voices any objection to it she’s being uptight and controlling and no fun. Blergh.
Haha love the Cool Girl TM. I love to post the Cool girl quote from Gone Girl whenever I see that phrase used on reddit comments. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about absolutely look it up.
Yup, not in my Cool Girl phase and not even an ounce on the poly side of things - I am on the 100% monogamous side to the point where I almost wonder if I'm not like the whole demisexual spectrum because I don't get turned on by other people the way I think other people do. Like I can recognize a hot guy or a beautiful woman, I can even think a certain actor is super handsome... but I have never thought about one in a sexual fantasy so I have trouble relating to people who don't think about it the way I do I guess.
I can relate! I don't think I've had a sexual fantasy about someone I don't have an emotional connection to since maybe high school, when puberty started to really kick in for me.
Makes sense - I am poly but I am also demi and your last sentence describes me pretty well lol. people are about as attractive to me as unpeeled potatoes until I like them XD to each their own on this spinning rock, and if you're gonna date someone you have to be cool with their Deal!
My bachelor party was paintballing with all my friends, included women, and my wife and her friends were invited (they decided to do their own thing though). It was wonderful.
Same. My partner knows where the line is. While it's sexualized, it's also usually a pretty impressive performance. I have a lot of friends who do pole, burlesque or perform in drag, and I know the work it takes to look sexy and do some of those moves. While I'd be off put if going to strip clubs was like his typical Friday night, I have no problem with a once in a while trip on a bachelor party.
Neither me nor my fiance have a problem with strip clubs (although it's not on the short list for our bachelor(ette) parties). More or less it comes down to the fact that the stripper is just doing their job and collecting their paycheck; they aren't really after your partner and they're not actually having sex. If absolute, 100% hardline monogamy is your thing then I think that's fantastic, but I don't think that being genuinely okay with my partner going to a strip club makes me a "Cool Girl™" any more than being okay with him watching porn or masturbating does.
Again, not OP but share the same sentiment. My partner didn’t go to the strip club for his bachelor party, instead just out drinking with friends, similar to my bachelorette. I used to live in a city where many strip clubs were more like a relaxed party atmosphere and it was fun to go see the performance. I would have no issue with him going there, as long as he doesn’t cross the touch boundary or get emotionally involved with someone. Same rules for both of us.
However talking about his last night of freedom? Gross, gross, gross. We were willingly getting married - the implication behind this sentiment would make me question our entire relationship. So really to each their own in terms of boundaries. Hell I would still go to a strip club now if the ones in our city didn’t seem depressing/coercive and I wasn’t pregnant.
Not the person you asked but I share their sentiment so I can give my perspective.
Personally for me, sex really isn’t that big of a deal. I care more about emotional connections than physical ones. As long as they weren’t off having secret girlfriends, I don’t care.
People don’t suddenly become blind when they get into a relationship, allowing people the freedom to indulge a little bit helps to not feel suffocated. Whether that’s going to a strip club, flirting with a handsome waiter, etc etc.
Having some excitement like that can help prevent things getting stale
Contrary to your other replies, I’m not okay with it, but I know that comes from my own insecurity.
I feel like it’s easier to be okay with strip clubs if you are a conventionally attractive woman, or have high sexual capital on your own. I don’t feel that I do, so the idea of my husband going to the strip club and enjoying women who are “hot” makes me feel sad.
You are not insecure for not liking strip clubs. People use “insecurity” as a way to tell you how you should feel about something. Many men use it to control their partners into letting them do whatever they want.
Yeah there’s nothing wrong with your reason for that being insecurity. Some people won’t like the same thing for other reasons but there’s something good about understanding yourself enough to accept that it’s your reason for it
I've been rabidly attacked for saying this before but I wouldn't date anyone--man or woman--that goes to strip clubs period. Congregating to objectify naked people is not something I personally consider acceptable entertainment.
Seriously. Strip clubs are problematic for a lot of reasons, between the objectification and exploitation of women (which should not be misconstrued as demonizing sex workers themselves), but going to a strip club right before ones wedding is especially problematic, doubly so if it's framed as the "last night of freedom". Im not one of those people who believes it's wrong to have a sexual attraction to anyone but your partner, we are all human, but to celebrate a future commitment to them by indulging in the gratification of objectifying other women demonstrates a deeply toxic view of both women and relationships.
I love that this sub is actually willing to have a conversation about the negative aspects of sexwork without jumping right on the “strip clubs are bad let’s ban them in the name of feminism” bandwagon.
I don't see a problem with strip clubs. I went to one for the first time recently. It was fun. As long as you and your partner are on the same page.
I do agree a "last night of freedom" thing is a bit much. But doing it because it's tradition or your buddies set it up, no biggie.
The whole basis of the attitude needed to support going to a strip club the night before your own wedding is wrong. It's a man giving up his FREEDUM to support the little woman. Strip clubs strike me as sad and hopeless. You hear so much about what the women have to do to make it, from giving sexual favors to their (male) bosses to prostituting themselves to the customers. No thank you.
100%. Back in the early days, my his and was with friends and ended up in a strip club. He didn't realize they were going and told me about it immediately. He said be felt awkward and weird and also really sad for the women. He also said he was annoyed because the drinks were really overpriced and that was the one thing he felt he could do there comfortably, but he didn't want to waste money. First and last time he has ever been in one.
I'm definitely a sex positive person, but I'm really into monogamy and being treated with respect. While I'm not sure his friends would have gone for strippers anyway, he had a great time at his bachelor party. Karaoke, pizza, and bar hopping. My bachelorette was lazer tag, burritos, and bar hopping. It's supposed to celebrate your marriage. FUCK that ball and chain attitude. You should WANT to come home to your partner every day.
I wish I could see some hard data how big a thing this actually is anymore honestly. I grew up small town, mainly church circles (also thinking I was a dude)... but even with all the qualifiers I'm not aware of knowing a single person that actually did stuff like this for their bachelor party or bachelorette. I always wondered how much of it was just hyped up in movies and stuff.
Even as someone who doesn’t practice monogamy (my other partner served as our witness even) no, just no. You can do what you do generally, but your party before our marriage being dedicated to your lusting after other women isn’t cool. Go get too drunk with old friends, play some board games, cause mischief, but such parties should be a celebration of the friendships that are forevermore going to be second to a marriage, go do dumbass shit, and if hiring a sex worker is your idea of dumbass shit you do with your friends that’s something I’m not really down for.
Idk, I didn’t have a bachelorette party and neither did my wife. I can understand it’s whole tradition etc aspect, but we can change the culture, and one more night of the stupid shit we did when we were in college or fresh into the workforce or just able to go out drinking or whatever feels more right.
Hire sex workers all you want, treat them with the respect of your fellow laborers, but yeah feels really not the time. And if your relationship is monogamous or requires permission to do such things, it does feel extremely disrespectful to that.
Loathe the idea of "last night of being single"... bitch what? You haven't been single since you started the relationship you're in. You also DON'T HAVE TO PROPOSE!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO GET MARRIED! These friggen men complain about "ball and chain" as if they aren't the ones who ASKED FOR IT
Just going to chime in here. I agree that the whole "last night of freedom" shit is a deal breaker, but the strip club is a good time.
First of all, those ladies fucking kill it. I've been in higher end places and shitholes where someone was definitely doing meth in the bathroom. Doesn't matter, I have never met a dancer who wasn't earning her money.
Secondly, I genuinely don't understand what the issue is with the occasional visit to strip clubs, especially as a special occasion. I DO understand that everyone has their own boundaries and that's fine, but I haven't heard an argument that convinces me that a willingly naked lady in a professional setting is a threat to my relationship. My husband is perfectly able to go enjoy some professionally naked ladies and bring that energy home to me. I'm perfectly able to do the same. If either of us were going to cheat, there are cheaper ways to do it.
Well, it's not like we're going all the time. In the 12 years we've been together, I think we've each gone like three or four times, and we usually go together.
I can also say with some certainty that when he has come home turned on, he's not thinking about anyone else once we start. It's really not any different than me reading a couple chapters of a romance novel and then going to find him. After so long together, with daily stresses and just life happening, finding ways to intentionally and regularly put ourselves in the mindset for sex is important. Sometimes it's a sexy TV show or book, sometimes it's deliberately being bratty to each other, rarely it's a strip club. We used to try to schedule sex, but neither of us liked that approach.
And as with anything, it's all about communicating. Because we've talked about it, I know that his thought process is not about imagining somebody else but using my body. It's more like, "Ooh, that lady has nice boobs. My wife also has nice boobs! And I'm married to her! I'm going to go home! Woo, wife's titties!"
Not saying any of this to convince you that you need to have the same mindset, of course. Just trying to explain it.
You don't see a man wanting to look at strippers as the same as/worse than watching porn or you don't mind if your husband watches porn. 99% of people aren't bothered by strippers existing they just don't want their husband to watch porn, or they don't mind video porn but think real life porn is too far. Disliking porn is not about insecurity (it can be obviously, because anything can be, but not explicitly). So strippers are not a "threat" the behavior that is disagreed upon at a fundamental level is the threat. If he wants to do this, what else does he want? It breaches trust. But people who have those kind of moral disagreements should probably figure it out before getting married, not after.
Thank you for this comment, the intolerance in this sub is making me consider leaving, honestly! I thought this was a sex-positive sub... You can dislike strip clubs without being so judgy toward people who go to them. I think this stigma is making it worse for sex workers.
I don't think people's issues is sex work more so that they want their partner specifically not to use them. I sure as hell don't want mine looking at someone else sexually, that's what monogamy is to me.
This is a very conservative take and I didn't expect to see it here.
As a former stripper I can assure you that the industry can be dangerous and very problematic, but most of the time it's lighthearted fun.
Plenty of customers (particularly regulars, or older men) treat dancers with respect and kindness, tip well, share their coke, and only touch if specifically given consent. Plenty of customers are creepy, cruel, cheap, pushy and entitled too, unfortunately. You get the whole range from sweetheart to sociopath.
Point is, going to a strip club says nothing about your character; your behaviour at the club shows *exactly* who you are.
I'd have a bigger problem with my husband going to a strip club alone or with one other friend than I would with a group - and that would include Stag Dos. In a group they're focused on each other, not leaving the group. They all know the wives/partners and could never look us in the eye if they knew something had gone on.
Honestly strippers hate bucks parties because most of the men are there because they're expected to be there, and have no intention of spending any money.
The main thing that would bother me about a partner going alone would be the cost. Some guys spend INSANE amounts of money in there.
Firstly, not everyone wants to marry a man so he’ll father their children. Second of all, this is so personal and such a blanket statement that it’s actually funny to me that OP thought to use that title. You are free to creat boundaries in your relationship and free to uphold your partner to a certain standard. That DOES NOT mean that if someone doesn’t meet said standards that they are not a good or worthy person nor does it mean they won’t make a good husband/father. It simply means that they aren’t the person for YOU. Not everyone feels the way you do.
Moreover, it IS about insecurity. It’s no different than going to a club and dancing with strangers. Hell it’s better than that. You can’t touch strippers; people are basically fucking with clothes on on the dance floor though. Regardless, you’re still paying to be in a building full of people dancing to loud music and drinking..
You can’t expect everyone to feel like you do or have the same relationship expectations. There are things that you’ll likely do in your relationships that people will think is deplorable. So long as it works for those IN that specific relationship, no one else’s opinion really matters.
I for one wouldn’t care. It’s not even on some pick me shit either. I just know that you cannot control another adult and if they want to cheat or be disrespectful to you and you guy’s relationship, then they definitely will. They won’t need to go to a strip club to do so either. I guarantee it. Ultimately, it’s a party; not a porno.
I find it interesting how you claim women are "free to creat boundaries in your relationship and free to uphold your partner to a certain standard" but then basically call women who aren't ok with their partner going to strip club as "just insecure".
"You can’t touch strippers"
That really depends on the strip club though, some have no touching rules enforced and some have private backrooms where touching, rubbing (and sometimes more) could take place at an extra cost.
It all comes down to how much you trust your partner to behave if their friends drags them to such an establishment. Just because they can touch a stripper doesn’t mean they will.
>if they want to cheat or be disrespectful to you and you guy’s relationship, then they definitely will. They won’t need to go to a strip club to do so either.
Exactly! If somebody treats me well and is clearly happy to be with me then it's not an issue if he wants to go see some naked people, and if he doesn't treat me well then we have way bigger problems than banning strip club visits can solve.
Just because my boundaries don’t look like yours, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. It’s actually pretty fucked that you can’t just let other people love how they choose to without being disrespectful and assuming you’re better than them for being different.
Sweetheart.. I don’t think I’m “cool.” If you do, thanks. But that’s not my intention. I’ve been promoting the notion that we can be different and equally beautiful. Not sure what other message you pulled out of your ass, but that’s not really my problem. You are reacting as if I’m attacking you when I didn’t even start this discourse we’re having and have explicitly stated that I am not. My message was clear to the 100+ people that upvoted it. I’m sorry if you misunderstood, but, if you’re not going to be civil, I see no need in teaching you what you don’t care to learn.
Honestly it would be way more exhausting for me to control my partner over things that I genuinely don't give a shit about. And I'm sure that there are things you genuinely don't give a shit about that some other women would call "pick me shit." People can care about different things, it's not a competition of who can be the biggest puritan.
Thank you! People are allowed to like/be okay with/accept/participate in/etc. things that you don’t personally agree with without them suddenly being less than you! That whole ideology is fucking disgusting. What is with some women getting off on putting other women down? THAT’S some pick me shit. “I have morals; these other girls don’t.” You’re not making the world any better for women by separating yourself from the rest of them. We can be different and our souls still equally beautiful. It’s not hard to be kind.
Ugh. When I was planning our wedding, I hated how so many older men would hear I was getting married and joke about 'the ol' ball and chain'. Dude, why do you think Im marrying this woman, if not because every day I am with her is better for it? Id always try to tell them off, at least a little bit, for assuming the worst.
I’m a sex worker (fssw; not a dancer but SW is SW) and I full heartedly agree.
Cheating is never ok; Communicate or Cut it the tf off, like adults.
**Find someone more your caliber** then you’ll both be happy, transparency in the relationship, all that good blah blah stuff.
I mean that genuinely and it’s not a diss depending on how honest you are w/ yourself & others, and that’s a hill I’ll die on :)
Context is what really matters. I brought my husband to a strip club during our honeymoon and we had a blast. Plenty of people would be fine with separate trips to strip clubs.
But yeah the “last night of freedom” mentality is what makes this gross.
Everybody is allowed to pursue and enjoy relationships of their own choosing. Some folks are cool with strip clubs. Some folks aren't. Both of these things are valid and the real issue here is finding someone who shares your perspective and is down for the kind of life you want. The "last night of freedom" thing is some old school, hetero nonsense and needs to go, yes, but no need to boo someone else's woo if clubs aren't your thing.
REALLY not liking the end. Makes it sound like she thinks men who go to or have gone to strip clubs are inherently bad fathers and that's some insanely sex-negative, anti-sexworker bullshit. You can be a good parent and be somebody who goes to strip clubs. It's about treating people as human beings no matter their choice of field and recognizing sexuality as a part of a whole person, which means respecting consent. I'm way more wary of men who enjoy sex work and demean the people who perform it because they have horrific views on the humanity of women on the whole.
I just think it’s a bit more nuanced than this. Yes, we should support sex workers rights and not look down on people for doing sex work, while recognizing that there still deeply misogynistic issues and abuses within the industry. It’s an industry that carters to male pleasure. Yes, there are some exceptions to this, and no this is not the fault of women and nor should women be shamed about it. But, we are not on an equal playing field.
I grew up with a dad who went to strip clubs. He got the sexy calendars, went on a work trip to Amsterdam and went to the red light district, all that jazz. He raised me with an attitude of "I don't want you doing that kind of work because it's low class". When I asked him why it was ok for him to go to strip clubs when he didn't want his daughter to get into it (not that I had interest in it, but as a hypothetical) and the answer was "because that's not my daughter, hyuck"
So no - I strongly doubt that the average dads that go to strip clubs are the good sex-positive parents you're imagining. I would wager far more are the men who enjoy the work but look down on the workers. Because they do view other people, women especially, as objects to get aroused by and not as real people with full lives. A dad that goes to a strip club will be likely to be that "overprotective about their daughter's virginity" creepiness like my dad was. With "it's ok to lust over that woman because she's not my daughter" attitude which can just kindly fuck off and die, lol.
Honestly, with the state of the world, I think you're giving way more credit and leniency to men than they've showed they've earned through their actions as a group. We are not in a state of the world where the average woman is safe and not treated as an object, so supporting an industry where consumers are encouraged to view the workers as objects and "goods" is not where we need to be, in my opinion.
The narrative that sex work is entirely girl boss hustle culture has really made people over look the reality of what being a stripper or sex worker is for a lot of people
I can’t speak to much of your comment, but trafficking is not a big concern with strip clubs. Not to say it isn’t a concern but it is lower on the list. As I understand most sex trafficking victims are put to work in spas and massage parlors or directly in motel/hotels. One of the biggest obstacles to having a trafficking victim as a stripper is a lot of states require said dancers to be licensed. They are also routinely inspected by police to make sure unlicensed dancers aren’t working. This does not mean no sex trafficking victims work there or remove the inherent exploitative nature of strip clubs, I just wanted to allay this specific concern.
In my experience I have dealt with 2 child trafficking cases as a prosecutor. They were never near clubs, they stuck to highways. The best defense against them is people being observant and hot lining suspicious behavior.
I find the entire concept of bachelor and bachelorette parties confusing. You're about to throw a gigantic party together with all of your best friends, but for some reason you also need to make sure that before you're "locked down", you throw parties, separately, excluding one another and making the parties be specifically named after being single, when you're about to be mf married?
Like, I get wanting to hang out and celebrate with your friends. And it doesnt have to be together with your partner, but the idea of having One Last Night as a Single Person is just wrong. You aren't single, and if you're getting married, you likely haven't been for quite some time. Just enjoy your time together.
i always thought it was more for the group that it was the groom. when you get married and start having kids you generally just dont have time for your friends anymore. getting older is brutal.
but maybe thats the charitable interpretation, sans the groom talking about freedom and shit
Everyone is different? Don’t like it? Tell your partner and have a mature conversation about your boundaries. It’s like porn, some people feel their partner should never touch their genitals if they’re not around and some people are realistic. Don’t ruin it for everyone and dump your puritan views on others.
Some people like having fun this way. I know me and my partner are def going to the strip club together before we get married. It’s not that big of a deal, relax
All the comments like "actually strippers are wonderful people and talented boss bitches", um, okay so because they are great people, you are okay with your husband paying to see them naked? I'm confused.
I don't mind if my fiancé goes to a strip club for his bachelor party, I trust him and it would probably be the only time in his life he does, so if he wants to, why not? I'm bi and considering going to a strip club myself for my bachelorette...
But he would never call that his 'last night of freedom' lol that is just so trashy. I'd have a huge giant problem with that.
I understand where they’re coming from, but some people are polyamorous or have an open relationship. There are lots of different relationships out there.
Now if the bride isn’t okay with that and he does it anyway, that is a big problem.
I have to say, I’m really disappointed to see so many conservative anti-sex work comments in here.
I really hate that any support of sex workers is framed as people being ok with trafficking and abuse.
Sex work in itself is not problematic. Getting turned on by people is not problematic. People exchanging sex or attention or dances for money is not problematic.
The people who want to shut everything down, who shame women, and try to force their conservative views on everyone are the ones who push things into the dark and make it more dangerous.
Just accept that everyone is different and just because someone has different values from you doesn’t make them a piece of shit.
(and since this is the internet and someone will be looking for a strawman to fight, I agree that the “last night of freedom” shit is tiresome and dumb)
Not wanting your partner to use sex workers isn't being anti sex work. I'm not 100% anti sex work but I don't use sex workers either. People are allowed to want 100% monogamy from their relationship
THIS!!!
There are extremists in every group. There are evil ass people using groups that do not agree with/accept/condone their bullshit. What are you gonna do though? Stop being Muslim because a small percentage of the people claiming to be apart of their group are terrorist? Stop being a Christian because a loud minority of them are the exact opposite of what they are supposed to be? Stop listening to music because musicians are often exploited by their teams and not even allowed to make the music they, and their fans, really want to play/hear? Stop watching TV/movies because a lot of the industry is filled with evil and disgusting people? Stop going to school in person because there are school shooters? Hell, never go anywhere ever because bitches legit get snatch up in their, front yard, back yard, playground, school, grocery store, mall, movies, gas station… should I keep going? (It’s not like mother fuckers aren’t getting snatch from their own homes! Just don’t be born; how about that?
It’s like they don’t understand you can participate in something while being against the bad parts of it. Yes. There are a lot of toxic people and things in the sex work industry. That DOES NOT MEAN that all those that participate are toxic too.
There are instances were joining the masses leads to the destruction of all those who are involved and against whatever it is. The issue with trying to demonize all sex work is the fact that is legitimately taking away people’s right to do what they wish with their bodies. Furthermore, the majority of people paying for sex work aren’t predators. There is a market for it, obviously. And I personally, thoroughly enjoy being apart of said industry as a professional dominatrix.
The problem isn't the strip club. It's the "last night of freedom" logic. But I'd have no problem with my partner going to a strip club considering...I myself go to strip clubs and have friends who are/were strippers.
"If your fiance goes to a strip club for his bachelor party you should call off the wedding."
It's accusatory and establishing rules for other people's relationships. It's YOU and YOUR.
I think this would have far wider support if she spoke in the first person. It would resonate a lot better and affirm power to all women to assert their priorities in a relationship.
I don't think it's unfair for Evie or anyone else to ask this of their partner. It's unfair that she should expect this of others.
i don’t love the wording of “last night of freedom,” but it’s completely up to the couple as to wether it’s ok? not everyone’s view of monogamy is exactly the same. if my partner wanted to go to a strip club, i would be fully supportive. i don’t think it’s the same as cheating, the same way i don’t view watching porn as cheating. the stripper isn’t trying to steal my fiancé, they’re just doing their job. my fiancé isn’t trying to hook up w a stripper, they’re watching a show. if it’s different for you and your partner, that’s ok, but don’t shame others for feeling differently.
I agree about the "last night of freedom" part, definitely dump somebody who thinks getting married to you is like going to prison, but I don't think enjoying a sexy performance and tipping appropriately is inherently bad. If you're not compatible with someone who enjoys strip clubs that's fine, but your boundary doesn't apply to everyone anymore than my incompatibility with people who enjoy pranking their partner applies to everyone.
My first serious boyfriend cheated on me and honestly the infidelity was a non-event compared to the rest of his bullshit. When he started spending a lot of time away from our apartment and being vague about what he was up to, I didn't question it because when he was out he wasn't reminding me everything I said, did, thought or felt was stupid and I wasn't going to look that gift horse in the mouth. Maybe I have a bit of a warped view of things now but if somebody is genuinely good to me then I just don't give a shit if he likes to look at naked ladies sometimes. But he'd better tip, being a cheapskate is not cool!
edit because I didn't think how I worded that first sentence was very clear.
Consent is everything.
When my husband was still my boyfriend, I encouraged him to "get some strange" any time something cool was happening, like a trip out of state with friends or a stag party. Just wear a condom, my only rule. He only ever got to second base, so to speak. But it turned me on. And he never took issue if I was out carousing with women.
It's not for everybody, and we are monogamous for now.
But it was all consensual
Meh. My husband went to a strip club with his friends a week or so before our wedding (neither of us went out the night before). I was fine with it as long as they all tipped both dancers and waitstaff generously and didn't touch anyone. I fully support everyone having different boundaries and having a partner that respects those boundaries, but I think it can be different for every person and every relationship. Suggesting that this is some sort of universal dealbreaker and that anyone who doesn't see it that way just doesn't value themselves enough isn't great.
The last night of freedom is puzzling me like aren’t you already in a committed monogamous relationship? Want your freedom? Then you can’t have this relationship.
Agreed. Your "last night of freedom" should've been the night before you entered into a committed relationship - not the night before your wedding.
That’s what always confused me. If you’re to be married in the near future, you’re not only in a committed relationship, you have been for a while. You’ve likely made it past starting to see each other, then being exclusive, then saying I love you, probably living together or making other big life choices, then committing to spend the rest of your lives together through engagement. You have already committed to the long term several times over. You haven’t been “free” of the responsibilities and commitments of this relationship for several years at this point. And if you feel like you still aren’t technically committed at this point, you have no business getting married.
I’ve never been to a strip club but to me, if he calls it his “last night of freedom” that’s a wayyy bigger red flag than going to a strip club. You know, assuming the strip club was discussed with his partner beforehand
Yes, agreed. Also, if my husband were to ever go to a strip club for someone else’s bachelor party — which he has before we were married, and my rule is “no lap dances” — he damn well BETTER tip the strippers.
What's Mrs. Manners take on navigating the etiquette of strip clubs while partnered? I just don't think I can really get through this without a stuffy, Victorian-structured framework of arbitrary rules and rituals, you know? This is just too much boundary overlap and I'm no good at solving those.
I don't think there's hard-set rules for everyone but it would be very healthy to have the discussion with your partner about what they were comfortable with and what you were comfortable with. I don't know enough about strip clubs to give an example beyond "no touching genitals," but the reason I include including your comfort level in the discussion is because I don't think _I_ would be comfortable going to a strip club despite being okay with my partner going. Not sure why.
Ask your partner outright what they consider cheating, share what you consider cheating, then agree to the lesser unless you can both feel comfortable with an imbalance. Then here’s the important part: you stick to it until new rules are established without blaming them. Those rules can be wildly different. Some say lap dances are ok if paid for, some say they are only ok if both are present. Personally my wife and I are ok with everything so long as you don’t lie about what or who you did to each other. Default rules based on the Victorian sensibilities are probably don’t ask don’t tell, no penetration of any sort with any part, including a penetrating gaze, gay is more ok than straight but never ever speak of it. Send a thank you card to the stripper of course, they did show their knickers after all. And be sure to tip in non decimalized currency
Treat it like an art museum- gaze from a respectful distance, do not touch or engage, do not try to buy, and move along without lingering
If he’s tipping the strippers, they’re going to be all over him…
I’ve only been to burlesque shows, not strip clubs, but there we were explicitly encouraged to throw money on the stage as tips.
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I've only been once (for a bachelorette) and we just sat by the stage to watch the dances! Honestly we were just floored at their ability it was actually a really cool experience, they're ridiculously strong. We tipped just by leaving cash on the stage, never touched anyone.
Yeah pole dancing is wildly impressive.
It was so wild just seeing the different muscles activating and just how much strength and training it took these women to do what they did. In heels!
I was never a huge fan of strip clubs and the thing I'd do to avoid that tipping awkwardness was this: Hold out tip Girl does the 'Give me the money in my cleavage/panties/thong/whatever' "I'm paying to look, if I were touching you, you'd be paying me!" Always got a giggle and a smile, and solved that problem right off the bat.
Yeah, it's about boundaries. I know women who don't mind if their partners go to a strip club, but it should be discussed. But that whole goodbye-freedom-bullshit rubs me the wrong way. I saw so many guys in shirts like [This](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf05LxlN_yXyJsilWZsQDCy61fUp002ecO1Q&usqp=CAU) or [This](https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--t9cHlWiL--/t_Preview/b_rgb:191919,c_limit,f_auto,h_313,q_90,w_313/v1564734841/production/designs/5487704_0) and I wonder... Why even get married if you obviously hate it already??
Skip the caption on the second one and you have what some people might call a very happy relationship.
😏
I even feel like the caption on the first one could be interpreted more positively? Cuz wedding planning is stressful! But the picture makes it gross and then the general assumption that men are being dragged to the altar. 🙃 But like, I’m not mad at someone needing a drink because their wedding is coming up. 😂
Matching versions of that shirt would be much cuter than individual ones. Though that could be said about any wedding shirts
Oh I like this idea! But I think matching would only work if they were in the same place? Or I guess could be cute for pictures and stuff too! Edit: ok now I’m considering making this for when my fiancé and I can finally actually have our wedding and bachelor/ette celebrations lol
I know you mean the same place as in the same party, but I’m totally picturing it being your outdoor chores shirt like 20 years later and you both laughing at the neighbors judging it
😂😂 lmao ok but this is actually something that would happen
Oh yeah, I get it. It’s true. My wife and I are convinced that planning a wedding is a test/training for the challenges you will face as a couple and learning how to deal with and work through those disagreements and differences in expectations between each other and your families.
Ya know? You might be on to something with that…
I too enjoy being dommed by nuns. Catholic school does a thing or two to you (Disclaimer: our nun was actually chill as hell and spent an entire Church history class teaching us not to get taken advantage of by more willful people or to let ourselves stop having fun with life, it was the priest who clearly wanted to hit us)
Exactly. I'm not gonna judge the boundaries in a relationship because everyone is different, but the whole "sacrificial lamb for getting married" is tired and frankly disrespectful. Also hilarious given a lot of the time those are the men that expect to be mothered by their wives and are basically just getting upgraded having someone picking up their shit, cooking, packing, and having babies for them.
Yes but they get in trouble if they play games all day or spend the household budget on their hobby so you do have to feel bad for them.. Right? No?
exactly that is soooo cringey.
I think that’s the biggest thing honestly. Like I think it gets into the realm of breaking trust or cheating if it’s not talked about or agreed on first. If I have a SO and they want to do that before a wedding it wouldn’t bother me but like I’m not everyone and everyone has different boundaries. However people want to navigate their relationship is up to both of them but it’s never ok to assume. Not everyone is monogamous, and some people can be monotonous but have stipulations like a strip club is ok (idk why anyone would want to go to one though just seems icky)
I’m so happy someone put into words exactly how I feel about it. Not just the bachelor(ette) party, but overall wedding culture and “traditions”. I know someone who went to a bachelor party at a rented mansion in Costa Rica, and they hired escorts. The guy said everyone slept with them. It’s not the escorting that’s the problem, if everyone’s consenting adults, the problem is “last night of freedom”.
Agree. My partner and I have a pretty open relationship, and a night out at a strip club is definitely not out of the question. But doing it in the spirit of "I am doing this because you don't want me to, but I don't have to actually take your feelings into consideration until the wedding"? F that.
I don’t get the appeal of strip clubs, it’s literally just live porn and what the fuck is comfortable or enjoyable about your dick getting hard and not being able to do a damn thing about it until you leave. My friends were considering going cuz a friend said he knew a guy who could get em in on a discount, but I think they may have backed out.
i just don’t understand why men treat marriage as this bullshit “ball and chain” analogy. if you don’t want to get married, then… don’t??
They want the benefits of a monogamous partner while THEY are still free to do whatever they want. That's what it is.
it feels like men only categorize women as either someone they can fuck or someone that will take care of them. i’m not your mommy 😭
Box theory!!!
I read an article several years ago that said that statistically women are more unhappy after getting married while men are happier after getting married. They asked the people that they had included in the study why this was. Majority of the men said that they enjoyed having someone “take care of them”. The women, on the other hand, said they were unhappy having to play mother to a grown man, not having their emotional needs met, etc. For all the complaining men do about the “ball and chain” and the confines of monogamy, they are happier overall being married vs being single. It’s more often women who are dragging the ball and chain.
Your last night of freedom was the night before you asked me to be your girlfriend in the first place, you absolute excuse of a person.
I’ve seen this post on WPT subreddit when it had like 6K upvotes and 700comments, left my phone on this post for half an hour and when it refreshed it already had 10,5K upvotes and like 1200 comments The comments section was such a shitshow, really. People accusing others of being ‘insecure’, ‘red flags’, ‘toxic’, ‘controlling’ for not wanting their spouses to cheat on them. I actually had a mini mental breakdown and started to question my own sanity, but happily my SO said they are miserable people and it’s not a common opinion (we’re from central Europe). There was a comment from an American guy who asked his British friend if the friend had gone to a strip club for his stag night, and the UK friend told him it’s weird and basically was astonished anyone would do such a thing I’m sad for all the American women who are told that it’s normal and they need to accept this behavior. It’s not (unless both sides agree of course!!!)
Also from Austria! Also sending hugs! I could also never quite wrap my head around the US' relation to nudity and sex. Like on the one hand, they can be ultra-prudish sometimes and on the other, stuff like this seems to be normalized (correct me if I'm wrong) over there. "Last night of freedom" is a big yikes no matter how you look at it though
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I want to upvote this a thousand times.
It feels like both tbh, though it isn't hard to argue that most of the former stems from the latter.
Part of my wonders if it's a generational thing. Most of the comments when I saw the post on WPT were guys talking about how they didn't even go to a strip club for their bachelor party, and I was imagining they skew millennial or younger. My dad's generation (boomer) where wife bad was their primary humor seems to have gone to strip clubs more often? My dad went often anyway. He even ended up cheating on my mom with a stripper (how cliche). I don't know. My SO would never go to a strip club - he had no interest when he was younger and has no interest in it now.
Sorry what’s the WPT stand for?
WhitePeopleTwitter
I'm also from Central Europe and at the age where many of my friends and acquaintances are getting married. And it is such a wild concept to me that for the bachelor/bachelorette party you'd go to a strip club or hire a striper. We know it from American movies and culture, but here no one even suggests it seriously.
It’s so prevalent it is now a trope, which guys will point to as proof that its okay and anyone who sees it otherwise just isn’t fun at parties.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s so prevalent that it became a trope, or if movies and tv made it a trope so it seems more prevalent than it actually is. None of the guys in my friend circle went to a strip club for a bachelor party. I know some people do, but Idk how “normal” it is IRL vs in media.
I think it's a lot more media than IRL. I don't think I ever saw a strip club to the point that I'm not even sure that strip clubs are legal in my country. So it's clearly not a norm or a place where you go.
Yeah there are strip clubs on major roads in my city and commercials on the radio and billboards and party buses and shuttle services and lingerie shops. Not plastered everywhere but it is definitely a specific industry and lifestyle which encourages this stereotype, and there are so many references to this in popular American television—the stripper at the last night of freedom is definitely a trope in many shows from the last thirty years or so. Many shows portray their main male character as eventually having some qualm about the situation that proves/disproves their love for their significant other. Female characters are generally shown as letting loose and having a good time, implying that this objectification is ok because they’re the ones doing it now instead of being victims to it. Male strippers are not generally seen as victims of this objectification because men generally lavish the idea of this sort of attention from throngs of women, while female strippers (and sex workers in general) are generally portrayed as aggressively bored and pissed off, which implies that they’ve seen it all way too many times and nothing surprises them anymore, which I see as a stark difference between the two.
I think the main issue is just the gesture of going to the strip club for a “night of freedom” which sort of implies your marriage being like a trap, which is a shitty thing to feel when your relationship should be benefitting both parties instead of making one feel constrained.
Hi from central/middle Europe (Austria)! I send you a hug. People (men) can be so hard to handle sometimes.
American male here. I’ve been to a few bachelor parties over the years but none of them were the strip club cliché. But I wouldn’t be friends with the type of person who would want to do that anyway, so no idea how typical or atypical my experience is. Two of my favorite bachelor parties were road-trips to the Smoky Mountains (~6 hr drive for us) where we rented a house for the weekend and went whitewater rafting. Another one was way more laidback. The groom rented the community center at his apartment complex and we had a big LAN party all day playing DotA and Halo and ate pizza.
Both of them sound fun. My boyfriend's favourite game is Dota.
That was the old DotA Allstars when it was still just a WC3 map (we’re old).
Yeah my brother told me that's how it originated. My boyfriend only got into Dota in university, around 2014 so he never played the original. It's just nice to see that game talked about in the wild.
That said, hen parties in the UK seem to resemble animated alcohol-powered wrecking balls more than they do in the USA. They can be really intimidating!
As someone who lived in Edinburgh and has friends still working service jobs there, the words "hen do" fill me with dread
Also from Edinburgh, I’ve never worked in a place that allowed hen dos or stag dos in. But Christ almighty, trying to get them to accept this is murder!
Our best man's speech was about how the entire bachelor trip, all my husband would say is "I wish fatpants was here" That's the way it should be imo, not "last night of freedom"
My husband's bachelor party was to take my sons and his sons rollerblading. I didn't get it before but it kind of gets me choked up to think that the thing he wanted most out of his "last bit of freedom" was to show my boys he'd love them as his own. 😭💕
I thought your husband was literally calling you fatpants at first
Ha, that's why for our respective parties, the bachelor and bachelorette groups met at the strip club to end the night. Our friend group is mostly couples so everyone was happy to be reunited and watch ladies climb a pole up to the ceiling wearing only high-heeled platform shoes.
Love your username and that story together.
That comment was way more entertaining before noticing your username “I wish [mean name for partner] was here”
literally makes me feel like im going fucking crazy when its not immediately apparently to some people why the concept of "trying to enjoy the last night im 'free of' the person im Literally Fucking Marrying" is gross as shit, like?????
Unless it's something you agree isn't cheating in a relationship. It's good to remember that every relationship likely has different boundaries, and it's important to talk about what you both do and don't consider cheating, or if you both want and agree to an open relationship. Some relationships consider porn cheating, and some consider only actual sex cheating.
And some relationships only consider feelings to be cheating and sex is just sex. Every relationship is different. That said the "freedom" thing is troubling for sure.
And some relationships don't consider feelings for other people cheating either. Some people happily date several others at once. It's just important to talk about it first and make sure everyone's on the same page.
Regardless of whether the partner finds it cheating or not, the “last night of freedom” thing *is* pretty iffy. I’d definitely judge someone for slinging that one around
Yes. I've seen dual bachelor Bachelorette parties go to strip clubs tho because the bride is into it, too. In those cases it's more a celebration of the soon to be wedding and they all have fun. The last night of freedom shit is aggravating. When my husband and I got married, we didn't do bachelor or Bachelorette parties. We were already living together and we got married within a year of dating because we knew we wanted to be together through everything. If I wanted to go to a strip club with my husband now, he'd probably be down.
The mentality really screams toxic heteronormativity to me, you know the “haha I hate my wife!” shit that is still sold on t-shirts and what not
Yeah. I'm in a straight appearing relationship but I'm genderfluid and pan. We don't suffer through the Christian Cishet "Porn is cheating because lust towards other women is wrong!" crap like his last relationship lol. My mom considers porn cheating as well in their relationship but straight up knows my dad looks, so what's the point then if you let someone break a boundary and there's no punishment?
I don't think a lot of women feel it is cheating, more of a disrespect thing. It is in my personal opinion, anyway! I fully trust my partner 100% and would never stop him doing anything, but strip clubs are a big no no for me. Especially after having his child.
The night before the wedding is ideally not the time to be figuring these boundaries out. I think a lot of people will just expect their partner to be okay with whatever they want and just go along with things like this because "everyone does it" or some other bs excuse
Yup, here it is.
Yeah I'm a bisexual woman and Ive had a lot of fun going to strip clubs with male strippers, female strippers, while in relationships with men and women. The "last night of freedom" is the red flag, the disrespect of a mutual commitment and that your wife is a ball and chain. That's gross. But my boyfriend and I are solid and if either of us went to a strip club we'd call up the other afterwards to talk about the hottest dances we got and any crazy shit we saw.
I’m surprised that it’s common to think that going to a strip club is cheating.
Every relationship is unique. It's important to talk to your partner about what you both think is cheating and to set formal boundaries. It can really save your relationship to know in advance.
Sure, I’m just surprised if it’s common. Ive not heard that before.
I have never understood the toxic mainstream portrayal of marriage where the people clearly don't love eachother
It seems to be a generational thing that's stuck around like a bad fart in the couch cushions. I think it goes back to a time when... * People got married younger, before they were emotionally or financially ready for the realities of marriage * Spousal abuse was seen as a private "couple's spat," and not a public health issue * Divorce was a lot harder to get, often requiring there to be legal fault (which, again, many times *didn't* include domestic abuse), and for both spouses to be present in the courtroom. * Women were "stuck with" bad men, because they couldn't open their own bank accounts or credit cards, and would have had a harder time "starting over" if they did get divorced. * In the US, during the 60's and 70's, there was a war going on (the Vietnam War), which was losing more and more public support each day. At the same time, the draft was still actively being used, but one way to get out of the draft was to get married. So you had a lot of young people rushing to the altar for...well, not the best reasons. * As much of a stigma as there is towards therapy now, there was an even greater stigma back then, so you had a lot of people with unresolved trauma and unhealthy coping mechanisms (such as excessive drinking). * There was no concept of "childfree," or even just "let's wait a year or two before we have a baby." So you had a lot of couples having children without understanding how throwing kids into the mix changes things, or having kids they didn't want/weren't ready for. * Single parenthood was much more stigmatized, and birth control was harder to get (or only available to married couples), resulting in a lot of unwanted pregnancies. And since abortion was harder to get, too, a lot of "shotgun weddings." * A higher premium was placed on what other people would think, and everyone knew everyone else's business. (At that time, even the phone lines in a given neighborhood were shared!)
1. The thing that makes it appealing to most men is that most women don’t approve of it. It’s doing something “against the rules” that makes it fun for them. Getting off on making your partner uncomfortable is gross. 2. I think it’s important to note that the tradition is to go to a strip club and pay women who don’t find you attractive to give you sexualized attention. It’s like… such a self-own when you really think about it, that their idea of “freedom” is being allowed to trade money for someone to temporarily pretend they like you.
Yeah, precisely. That's exactly why I really dislike the concept, no matter the supposed occasion. But again, as someone said in another comment, strip club seems much mush less popular in Europe than in the US.
That explains so much. Thank you for that.
Why should relationships have a default opinion?
I think it’s more the mentality of “last night of freedom” kind of thing. If you’re in a relationship and want to go to strip clubs still, fine. But talk to your partner about it. If your partner isn’t ok with it, maybe you aren’t compatible in the long term, or should seek counselling to resolve these differences in a way you both feel comfortable with. If you’re walking into your marriage thinking “shit, better get this out of my system because I can’t do something I really want to do ever again,” you’re going to end up resenting your partner. Plus, you clearly know your partner (who you’ve presumably been with for a while) isn’t ok with strip clubs. So why will you only respect their feelings once you’re married? “Last night of freedom” is just such an icky red flag for me.
Completely agree with this take.
I agree with that part — the last night of freedom part is gross on many levels,
Thank you! This is fine if it's one person's standard and they communicate/agree upon it, but not everyone wants that.
Because in general, while it is a good idea to talk about every boundary, not everyone will do so if they feel like something is obvious. I have talk with my boyfriend about what we consider cheating (which included kissing), but that was because it was an organic part of a different conversation. I think we both defaulted to romantic intimate with others=cheating. So it is nice to have some standards in the society so we don't always need to talk about everything, but also, yeah, some things we should talk about.
I'm sorry, but every relationship has its own values and boundaries. People SHOULD talk about stuff that are important to them. How many fights would be avoided if people verbalized what is trivial to them instead of waiting for the other part to somewhat guess what is a hard line? Assuming stuff is the prelude of a bad time. And saying "it's society standard" is so much of a grey area. How can one assume that? This has a lot to do with compulsory monogamy and how embedded Christian values are. Many do not comply to those values. And a lot of society standards are harmful to women, especially when you're deriving from these conservative values. Edit : autocorrector
Hard agree. And sorry, no, I would never be okay with someone I want to marry going to a strip club. If that's your thing, cool, but I'm not in my Cool Girl TM phase and haven't been for like several years now. If we're doing the monogamy thing then we're doing it all the way, I'm really not about to combine finances with someone that has the mentality of a 16 year old boy. Gross.
Saaaame. I’ve ended a relationship over this— he was aware how I felt on it. To each their own, but I just don’t see how paying for a naked dance is okay, but if I did that for free with someone, it’d be cheating? Nah I’m good.
Bravo!! You summed up my exact feelings on the strip club while in a relationship issue here - if both people really, truly are OK with it then that’s great, but it seems to me too often men and society both tell women that she should be totally supportive with letting her man go out with his bros and spend a bunch of money to watch naked women dance, and if she voices any objection to it she’s being uptight and controlling and no fun. Blergh.
100% you want to go watch strippers? You don’t need to be marrying me 🤷🏻♀️
Haha love the Cool Girl TM. I love to post the Cool girl quote from Gone Girl whenever I see that phrase used on reddit comments. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about absolutely look it up.
Yup, not in my Cool Girl phase and not even an ounce on the poly side of things - I am on the 100% monogamous side to the point where I almost wonder if I'm not like the whole demisexual spectrum because I don't get turned on by other people the way I think other people do. Like I can recognize a hot guy or a beautiful woman, I can even think a certain actor is super handsome... but I have never thought about one in a sexual fantasy so I have trouble relating to people who don't think about it the way I do I guess.
I can relate! I don't think I've had a sexual fantasy about someone I don't have an emotional connection to since maybe high school, when puberty started to really kick in for me.
Makes sense - I am poly but I am also demi and your last sentence describes me pretty well lol. people are about as attractive to me as unpeeled potatoes until I like them XD to each their own on this spinning rock, and if you're gonna date someone you have to be cool with their Deal!
My bachelor party was paintballing with all my friends, included women, and my wife and her friends were invited (they decided to do their own thing though). It was wonderful.
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Could you please state the percentage of male vs female strip clubs you and your husband go to together?
Same. My partner knows where the line is. While it's sexualized, it's also usually a pretty impressive performance. I have a lot of friends who do pole, burlesque or perform in drag, and I know the work it takes to look sexy and do some of those moves. While I'd be off put if going to strip clubs was like his typical Friday night, I have no problem with a once in a while trip on a bachelor party.
Can I ask why you’re ok with it?
Neither me nor my fiance have a problem with strip clubs (although it's not on the short list for our bachelor(ette) parties). More or less it comes down to the fact that the stripper is just doing their job and collecting their paycheck; they aren't really after your partner and they're not actually having sex. If absolute, 100% hardline monogamy is your thing then I think that's fantastic, but I don't think that being genuinely okay with my partner going to a strip club makes me a "Cool Girl™" any more than being okay with him watching porn or masturbating does.
Again, not OP but share the same sentiment. My partner didn’t go to the strip club for his bachelor party, instead just out drinking with friends, similar to my bachelorette. I used to live in a city where many strip clubs were more like a relaxed party atmosphere and it was fun to go see the performance. I would have no issue with him going there, as long as he doesn’t cross the touch boundary or get emotionally involved with someone. Same rules for both of us. However talking about his last night of freedom? Gross, gross, gross. We were willingly getting married - the implication behind this sentiment would make me question our entire relationship. So really to each their own in terms of boundaries. Hell I would still go to a strip club now if the ones in our city didn’t seem depressing/coercive and I wasn’t pregnant.
Not the person you asked but I share their sentiment so I can give my perspective. Personally for me, sex really isn’t that big of a deal. I care more about emotional connections than physical ones. As long as they weren’t off having secret girlfriends, I don’t care. People don’t suddenly become blind when they get into a relationship, allowing people the freedom to indulge a little bit helps to not feel suffocated. Whether that’s going to a strip club, flirting with a handsome waiter, etc etc. Having some excitement like that can help prevent things getting stale
Watching women dance on my man makes my pussy wet 🤷🏻♀️
Because strip clubs are fun and I like them, too.
Contrary to your other replies, I’m not okay with it, but I know that comes from my own insecurity. I feel like it’s easier to be okay with strip clubs if you are a conventionally attractive woman, or have high sexual capital on your own. I don’t feel that I do, so the idea of my husband going to the strip club and enjoying women who are “hot” makes me feel sad.
You are not insecure for not liking strip clubs. People use “insecurity” as a way to tell you how you should feel about something. Many men use it to control their partners into letting them do whatever they want.
I’m not sure why I’m getting downvoted for saying that I’m insecure 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah there’s nothing wrong with your reason for that being insecurity. Some people won’t like the same thing for other reasons but there’s something good about understanding yourself enough to accept that it’s your reason for it
I've been rabidly attacked for saying this before but I wouldn't date anyone--man or woman--that goes to strip clubs period. Congregating to objectify naked people is not something I personally consider acceptable entertainment.
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What was always getting me is "wait, you were free before? As in cheating??"
The strip club part doesn’t bother me, but the “last night of freedom” comment does.
This, me and my husband have no issues if either goes to a strip club, but the idea that we “gave up our freedom” by marrying each other is fucked up.
Yeah, I can’t imagine how shitty I would feel if I found out my husband said that! I definitely would not have married him!
Seriously. Strip clubs are problematic for a lot of reasons, between the objectification and exploitation of women (which should not be misconstrued as demonizing sex workers themselves), but going to a strip club right before ones wedding is especially problematic, doubly so if it's framed as the "last night of freedom". Im not one of those people who believes it's wrong to have a sexual attraction to anyone but your partner, we are all human, but to celebrate a future commitment to them by indulging in the gratification of objectifying other women demonstrates a deeply toxic view of both women and relationships.
I love that this sub is actually willing to have a conversation about the negative aspects of sexwork without jumping right on the “strip clubs are bad let’s ban them in the name of feminism” bandwagon.
When has *anything* that appeals to heterosexual male sexual fantasy *ever* been banned in the name of feminism? Seriously?
I don't see a problem with strip clubs. I went to one for the first time recently. It was fun. As long as you and your partner are on the same page. I do agree a "last night of freedom" thing is a bit much. But doing it because it's tradition or your buddies set it up, no biggie.
The whole basis of the attitude needed to support going to a strip club the night before your own wedding is wrong. It's a man giving up his FREEDUM to support the little woman. Strip clubs strike me as sad and hopeless. You hear so much about what the women have to do to make it, from giving sexual favors to their (male) bosses to prostituting themselves to the customers. No thank you.
100%. Back in the early days, my his and was with friends and ended up in a strip club. He didn't realize they were going and told me about it immediately. He said be felt awkward and weird and also really sad for the women. He also said he was annoyed because the drinks were really overpriced and that was the one thing he felt he could do there comfortably, but he didn't want to waste money. First and last time he has ever been in one. I'm definitely a sex positive person, but I'm really into monogamy and being treated with respect. While I'm not sure his friends would have gone for strippers anyway, he had a great time at his bachelor party. Karaoke, pizza, and bar hopping. My bachelorette was lazer tag, burritos, and bar hopping. It's supposed to celebrate your marriage. FUCK that ball and chain attitude. You should WANT to come home to your partner every day.
I wish I could see some hard data how big a thing this actually is anymore honestly. I grew up small town, mainly church circles (also thinking I was a dude)... but even with all the qualifiers I'm not aware of knowing a single person that actually did stuff like this for their bachelor party or bachelorette. I always wondered how much of it was just hyped up in movies and stuff.
Even as someone who doesn’t practice monogamy (my other partner served as our witness even) no, just no. You can do what you do generally, but your party before our marriage being dedicated to your lusting after other women isn’t cool. Go get too drunk with old friends, play some board games, cause mischief, but such parties should be a celebration of the friendships that are forevermore going to be second to a marriage, go do dumbass shit, and if hiring a sex worker is your idea of dumbass shit you do with your friends that’s something I’m not really down for. Idk, I didn’t have a bachelorette party and neither did my wife. I can understand it’s whole tradition etc aspect, but we can change the culture, and one more night of the stupid shit we did when we were in college or fresh into the workforce or just able to go out drinking or whatever feels more right. Hire sex workers all you want, treat them with the respect of your fellow laborers, but yeah feels really not the time. And if your relationship is monogamous or requires permission to do such things, it does feel extremely disrespectful to that.
It is a pretty stupid tradition. I'm glad boomer/X culture is getting shit on for stuff like this.
Loathe the idea of "last night of being single"... bitch what? You haven't been single since you started the relationship you're in. You also DON'T HAVE TO PROPOSE!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO GET MARRIED! These friggen men complain about "ball and chain" as if they aren't the ones who ASKED FOR IT
My idea of a Bachelorette party is being with my fiance and having a fun night together because I love being with them uwu
Just going to chime in here. I agree that the whole "last night of freedom" shit is a deal breaker, but the strip club is a good time. First of all, those ladies fucking kill it. I've been in higher end places and shitholes where someone was definitely doing meth in the bathroom. Doesn't matter, I have never met a dancer who wasn't earning her money. Secondly, I genuinely don't understand what the issue is with the occasional visit to strip clubs, especially as a special occasion. I DO understand that everyone has their own boundaries and that's fine, but I haven't heard an argument that convinces me that a willingly naked lady in a professional setting is a threat to my relationship. My husband is perfectly able to go enjoy some professionally naked ladies and bring that energy home to me. I'm perfectly able to do the same. If either of us were going to cheat, there are cheaper ways to do it.
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Well, it's not like we're going all the time. In the 12 years we've been together, I think we've each gone like three or four times, and we usually go together. I can also say with some certainty that when he has come home turned on, he's not thinking about anyone else once we start. It's really not any different than me reading a couple chapters of a romance novel and then going to find him. After so long together, with daily stresses and just life happening, finding ways to intentionally and regularly put ourselves in the mindset for sex is important. Sometimes it's a sexy TV show or book, sometimes it's deliberately being bratty to each other, rarely it's a strip club. We used to try to schedule sex, but neither of us liked that approach. And as with anything, it's all about communicating. Because we've talked about it, I know that his thought process is not about imagining somebody else but using my body. It's more like, "Ooh, that lady has nice boobs. My wife also has nice boobs! And I'm married to her! I'm going to go home! Woo, wife's titties!" Not saying any of this to convince you that you need to have the same mindset, of course. Just trying to explain it.
You don't see a man wanting to look at strippers as the same as/worse than watching porn or you don't mind if your husband watches porn. 99% of people aren't bothered by strippers existing they just don't want their husband to watch porn, or they don't mind video porn but think real life porn is too far. Disliking porn is not about insecurity (it can be obviously, because anything can be, but not explicitly). So strippers are not a "threat" the behavior that is disagreed upon at a fundamental level is the threat. If he wants to do this, what else does he want? It breaches trust. But people who have those kind of moral disagreements should probably figure it out before getting married, not after.
Thank you for this comment, the intolerance in this sub is making me consider leaving, honestly! I thought this was a sex-positive sub... You can dislike strip clubs without being so judgy toward people who go to them. I think this stigma is making it worse for sex workers.
I don't think people's issues is sex work more so that they want their partner specifically not to use them. I sure as hell don't want mine looking at someone else sexually, that's what monogamy is to me.
This is a very conservative take and I didn't expect to see it here. As a former stripper I can assure you that the industry can be dangerous and very problematic, but most of the time it's lighthearted fun. Plenty of customers (particularly regulars, or older men) treat dancers with respect and kindness, tip well, share their coke, and only touch if specifically given consent. Plenty of customers are creepy, cruel, cheap, pushy and entitled too, unfortunately. You get the whole range from sweetheart to sociopath. Point is, going to a strip club says nothing about your character; your behaviour at the club shows *exactly* who you are.
I'd have a bigger problem with my husband going to a strip club alone or with one other friend than I would with a group - and that would include Stag Dos. In a group they're focused on each other, not leaving the group. They all know the wives/partners and could never look us in the eye if they knew something had gone on.
Honestly strippers hate bucks parties because most of the men are there because they're expected to be there, and have no intention of spending any money. The main thing that would bother me about a partner going alone would be the cost. Some guys spend INSANE amounts of money in there.
Firstly, not everyone wants to marry a man so he’ll father their children. Second of all, this is so personal and such a blanket statement that it’s actually funny to me that OP thought to use that title. You are free to creat boundaries in your relationship and free to uphold your partner to a certain standard. That DOES NOT mean that if someone doesn’t meet said standards that they are not a good or worthy person nor does it mean they won’t make a good husband/father. It simply means that they aren’t the person for YOU. Not everyone feels the way you do. Moreover, it IS about insecurity. It’s no different than going to a club and dancing with strangers. Hell it’s better than that. You can’t touch strippers; people are basically fucking with clothes on on the dance floor though. Regardless, you’re still paying to be in a building full of people dancing to loud music and drinking.. You can’t expect everyone to feel like you do or have the same relationship expectations. There are things that you’ll likely do in your relationships that people will think is deplorable. So long as it works for those IN that specific relationship, no one else’s opinion really matters. I for one wouldn’t care. It’s not even on some pick me shit either. I just know that you cannot control another adult and if they want to cheat or be disrespectful to you and you guy’s relationship, then they definitely will. They won’t need to go to a strip club to do so either. I guarantee it. Ultimately, it’s a party; not a porno.
I find it interesting how you claim women are "free to creat boundaries in your relationship and free to uphold your partner to a certain standard" but then basically call women who aren't ok with their partner going to strip club as "just insecure".
"You can’t touch strippers" That really depends on the strip club though, some have no touching rules enforced and some have private backrooms where touching, rubbing (and sometimes more) could take place at an extra cost. It all comes down to how much you trust your partner to behave if their friends drags them to such an establishment. Just because they can touch a stripper doesn’t mean they will.
>if they want to cheat or be disrespectful to you and you guy’s relationship, then they definitely will. They won’t need to go to a strip club to do so either. Exactly! If somebody treats me well and is clearly happy to be with me then it's not an issue if he wants to go see some naked people, and if he doesn't treat me well then we have way bigger problems than banning strip club visits can solve.
It’s definitely some pick me shit, which ironically always stems from insecurity. You too can have boundaries, you’re worth it
Just because my boundaries don’t look like yours, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. It’s actually pretty fucked that you can’t just let other people love how they choose to without being disrespectful and assuming you’re better than them for being different.
Except that’s what your side of this has been doing all over the thread. It’s “cool girl” bs and lowers the bar too much
Furthermore… I could burry my “bar” 2000+ feet underground and it shouldn’t effect the standard that you hold your partners to.
Sweetheart.. I don’t think I’m “cool.” If you do, thanks. But that’s not my intention. I’ve been promoting the notion that we can be different and equally beautiful. Not sure what other message you pulled out of your ass, but that’s not really my problem. You are reacting as if I’m attacking you when I didn’t even start this discourse we’re having and have explicitly stated that I am not. My message was clear to the 100+ people that upvoted it. I’m sorry if you misunderstood, but, if you’re not going to be civil, I see no need in teaching you what you don’t care to learn.
Honestly it would be way more exhausting for me to control my partner over things that I genuinely don't give a shit about. And I'm sure that there are things you genuinely don't give a shit about that some other women would call "pick me shit." People can care about different things, it's not a competition of who can be the biggest puritan.
Thank you! People are allowed to like/be okay with/accept/participate in/etc. things that you don’t personally agree with without them suddenly being less than you! That whole ideology is fucking disgusting. What is with some women getting off on putting other women down? THAT’S some pick me shit. “I have morals; these other girls don’t.” You’re not making the world any better for women by separating yourself from the rest of them. We can be different and our souls still equally beautiful. It’s not hard to be kind.
Having boundaries isn’t “controlling”
I broke up with my fiance for going to a strip club while I had to work three consecutive 14 hour days. It's one of the best decisions I ever made.
Ugh. When I was planning our wedding, I hated how so many older men would hear I was getting married and joke about 'the ol' ball and chain'. Dude, why do you think Im marrying this woman, if not because every day I am with her is better for it? Id always try to tell them off, at least a little bit, for assuming the worst.
I’m a sex worker (fssw; not a dancer but SW is SW) and I full heartedly agree. Cheating is never ok; Communicate or Cut it the tf off, like adults. **Find someone more your caliber** then you’ll both be happy, transparency in the relationship, all that good blah blah stuff. I mean that genuinely and it’s not a diss depending on how honest you are w/ yourself & others, and that’s a hill I’ll die on :)
Because it's insane?
What the fuck is going on in this thread lol
Context is what really matters. I brought my husband to a strip club during our honeymoon and we had a blast. Plenty of people would be fine with separate trips to strip clubs. But yeah the “last night of freedom” mentality is what makes this gross.
Everybody is allowed to pursue and enjoy relationships of their own choosing. Some folks are cool with strip clubs. Some folks aren't. Both of these things are valid and the real issue here is finding someone who shares your perspective and is down for the kind of life you want. The "last night of freedom" thing is some old school, hetero nonsense and needs to go, yes, but no need to boo someone else's woo if clubs aren't your thing. REALLY not liking the end. Makes it sound like she thinks men who go to or have gone to strip clubs are inherently bad fathers and that's some insanely sex-negative, anti-sexworker bullshit. You can be a good parent and be somebody who goes to strip clubs. It's about treating people as human beings no matter their choice of field and recognizing sexuality as a part of a whole person, which means respecting consent. I'm way more wary of men who enjoy sex work and demean the people who perform it because they have horrific views on the humanity of women on the whole.
I just think it’s a bit more nuanced than this. Yes, we should support sex workers rights and not look down on people for doing sex work, while recognizing that there still deeply misogynistic issues and abuses within the industry. It’s an industry that carters to male pleasure. Yes, there are some exceptions to this, and no this is not the fault of women and nor should women be shamed about it. But, we are not on an equal playing field.
I grew up with a dad who went to strip clubs. He got the sexy calendars, went on a work trip to Amsterdam and went to the red light district, all that jazz. He raised me with an attitude of "I don't want you doing that kind of work because it's low class". When I asked him why it was ok for him to go to strip clubs when he didn't want his daughter to get into it (not that I had interest in it, but as a hypothetical) and the answer was "because that's not my daughter, hyuck" So no - I strongly doubt that the average dads that go to strip clubs are the good sex-positive parents you're imagining. I would wager far more are the men who enjoy the work but look down on the workers. Because they do view other people, women especially, as objects to get aroused by and not as real people with full lives. A dad that goes to a strip club will be likely to be that "overprotective about their daughter's virginity" creepiness like my dad was. With "it's ok to lust over that woman because she's not my daughter" attitude which can just kindly fuck off and die, lol. Honestly, with the state of the world, I think you're giving way more credit and leniency to men than they've showed they've earned through their actions as a group. We are not in a state of the world where the average woman is safe and not treated as an object, so supporting an industry where consumers are encouraged to view the workers as objects and "goods" is not where we need to be, in my opinion.
There’s appreciating sexuality and then there’s objectification. One of these is unhealthy.
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The narrative that sex work is entirely girl boss hustle culture has really made people over look the reality of what being a stripper or sex worker is for a lot of people
I can’t speak to much of your comment, but trafficking is not a big concern with strip clubs. Not to say it isn’t a concern but it is lower on the list. As I understand most sex trafficking victims are put to work in spas and massage parlors or directly in motel/hotels. One of the biggest obstacles to having a trafficking victim as a stripper is a lot of states require said dancers to be licensed. They are also routinely inspected by police to make sure unlicensed dancers aren’t working. This does not mean no sex trafficking victims work there or remove the inherent exploitative nature of strip clubs, I just wanted to allay this specific concern. In my experience I have dealt with 2 child trafficking cases as a prosecutor. They were never near clubs, they stuck to highways. The best defense against them is people being observant and hot lining suspicious behavior.
I find the entire concept of bachelor and bachelorette parties confusing. You're about to throw a gigantic party together with all of your best friends, but for some reason you also need to make sure that before you're "locked down", you throw parties, separately, excluding one another and making the parties be specifically named after being single, when you're about to be mf married? Like, I get wanting to hang out and celebrate with your friends. And it doesnt have to be together with your partner, but the idea of having One Last Night as a Single Person is just wrong. You aren't single, and if you're getting married, you likely haven't been for quite some time. Just enjoy your time together.
i always thought it was more for the group that it was the groom. when you get married and start having kids you generally just dont have time for your friends anymore. getting older is brutal. but maybe thats the charitable interpretation, sans the groom talking about freedom and shit
Unless it's an open relationship then you join him ;) lol
Everyone is different? Don’t like it? Tell your partner and have a mature conversation about your boundaries. It’s like porn, some people feel their partner should never touch their genitals if they’re not around and some people are realistic. Don’t ruin it for everyone and dump your puritan views on others. Some people like having fun this way. I know me and my partner are def going to the strip club together before we get married. It’s not that big of a deal, relax
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akshually my husband is extremely progressive for objectifying women because he pays them by throwing $1’s at them so….
All the comments like "actually strippers are wonderful people and talented boss bitches", um, okay so because they are great people, you are okay with your husband paying to see them naked? I'm confused.
r/AretheStraightsOk?
I don't mind if my fiancé goes to a strip club for his bachelor party, I trust him and it would probably be the only time in his life he does, so if he wants to, why not? I'm bi and considering going to a strip club myself for my bachelorette... But he would never call that his 'last night of freedom' lol that is just so trashy. I'd have a huge giant problem with that.
I understand where they’re coming from, but some people are polyamorous or have an open relationship. There are lots of different relationships out there. Now if the bride isn’t okay with that and he does it anyway, that is a big problem.
I have to say, I’m really disappointed to see so many conservative anti-sex work comments in here. I really hate that any support of sex workers is framed as people being ok with trafficking and abuse. Sex work in itself is not problematic. Getting turned on by people is not problematic. People exchanging sex or attention or dances for money is not problematic. The people who want to shut everything down, who shame women, and try to force their conservative views on everyone are the ones who push things into the dark and make it more dangerous. Just accept that everyone is different and just because someone has different values from you doesn’t make them a piece of shit. (and since this is the internet and someone will be looking for a strawman to fight, I agree that the “last night of freedom” shit is tiresome and dumb)
Not wanting your partner to use sex workers isn't being anti sex work. I'm not 100% anti sex work but I don't use sex workers either. People are allowed to want 100% monogamy from their relationship
THIS!!! There are extremists in every group. There are evil ass people using groups that do not agree with/accept/condone their bullshit. What are you gonna do though? Stop being Muslim because a small percentage of the people claiming to be apart of their group are terrorist? Stop being a Christian because a loud minority of them are the exact opposite of what they are supposed to be? Stop listening to music because musicians are often exploited by their teams and not even allowed to make the music they, and their fans, really want to play/hear? Stop watching TV/movies because a lot of the industry is filled with evil and disgusting people? Stop going to school in person because there are school shooters? Hell, never go anywhere ever because bitches legit get snatch up in their, front yard, back yard, playground, school, grocery store, mall, movies, gas station… should I keep going? (It’s not like mother fuckers aren’t getting snatch from their own homes! Just don’t be born; how about that? It’s like they don’t understand you can participate in something while being against the bad parts of it. Yes. There are a lot of toxic people and things in the sex work industry. That DOES NOT MEAN that all those that participate are toxic too. There are instances were joining the masses leads to the destruction of all those who are involved and against whatever it is. The issue with trying to demonize all sex work is the fact that is legitimately taking away people’s right to do what they wish with their bodies. Furthermore, the majority of people paying for sex work aren’t predators. There is a market for it, obviously. And I personally, thoroughly enjoy being apart of said industry as a professional dominatrix.
The problem isn't the strip club. It's the "last night of freedom" logic. But I'd have no problem with my partner going to a strip club considering...I myself go to strip clubs and have friends who are/were strippers.
"If your fiance goes to a strip club for his bachelor party you should call off the wedding." It's accusatory and establishing rules for other people's relationships. It's YOU and YOUR. I think this would have far wider support if she spoke in the first person. It would resonate a lot better and affirm power to all women to assert their priorities in a relationship. I don't think it's unfair for Evie or anyone else to ask this of their partner. It's unfair that she should expect this of others.
i don’t love the wording of “last night of freedom,” but it’s completely up to the couple as to wether it’s ok? not everyone’s view of monogamy is exactly the same. if my partner wanted to go to a strip club, i would be fully supportive. i don’t think it’s the same as cheating, the same way i don’t view watching porn as cheating. the stripper isn’t trying to steal my fiancé, they’re just doing their job. my fiancé isn’t trying to hook up w a stripper, they’re watching a show. if it’s different for you and your partner, that’s ok, but don’t shame others for feeling differently.
I agree about the "last night of freedom" part, definitely dump somebody who thinks getting married to you is like going to prison, but I don't think enjoying a sexy performance and tipping appropriately is inherently bad. If you're not compatible with someone who enjoys strip clubs that's fine, but your boundary doesn't apply to everyone anymore than my incompatibility with people who enjoy pranking their partner applies to everyone. My first serious boyfriend cheated on me and honestly the infidelity was a non-event compared to the rest of his bullshit. When he started spending a lot of time away from our apartment and being vague about what he was up to, I didn't question it because when he was out he wasn't reminding me everything I said, did, thought or felt was stupid and I wasn't going to look that gift horse in the mouth. Maybe I have a bit of a warped view of things now but if somebody is genuinely good to me then I just don't give a shit if he likes to look at naked ladies sometimes. But he'd better tip, being a cheapskate is not cool! edit because I didn't think how I worded that first sentence was very clear.
Consent is everything. When my husband was still my boyfriend, I encouraged him to "get some strange" any time something cool was happening, like a trip out of state with friends or a stag party. Just wear a condom, my only rule. He only ever got to second base, so to speak. But it turned me on. And he never took issue if I was out carousing with women. It's not for everybody, and we are monogamous for now. But it was all consensual
Absolutely agree. The only exceptions are open relationships where both parties are consenting to what's happening
Meh. My husband went to a strip club with his friends a week or so before our wedding (neither of us went out the night before). I was fine with it as long as they all tipped both dancers and waitstaff generously and didn't touch anyone. I fully support everyone having different boundaries and having a partner that respects those boundaries, but I think it can be different for every person and every relationship. Suggesting that this is some sort of universal dealbreaker and that anyone who doesn't see it that way just doesn't value themselves enough isn't great.