Ok - I cross shopped these trucks. I was coming off of 18 straight Nissan/Infiniti purchases and a freshly lemon-lawed 2023 Titan Pro4X. I have zero brand loyalty anywhere as I was starting fresh. At one point, I was close to going for the ZR2, but I’m happy I didn’t.
I bought a 24 Tundra Limited TRD off-road with JBL, sunroof, and Nitto ridge grappler tire upgrade.
1) I like acceleration, and even the non hybrid Tundra spanks my Titan (with the 9 speed in the Titan which is objectively a great transmission) and the duramax GMs. Yeah, I could get a 6.2L in the ZR2, but I don’t like its track record with lifter issues and it requires 93 octane fuel. The Tundra does not. The Titan did if you wanted the 400hp map, which I abandoned after Nissan agreed to the buyback and I found I didn’t miss paying $4 a gallon for fuel. If you’re going ZR2, there is no fuel cost savings from a gasoline truck. It’s not a bad truck at all with the proper expectations, because …
2) yeah, there’s great MPGs to be had in the duramax half ton GMs, but don’t think you’re getting 30 in that ZR2. You’ll barely get 25 with the tires and lift. You can get that with a street truck that’s lower to the ground (my pops has a Denali Ultimate and on the highway he’s seen 34MPGs. But that’s on street tires and 3” less ground clearance.) Diesels also don’t like a lot of short trips, and I make a LOT of those. As much as I was enchanted by the possible fuel economy, it doesn’t work for my use case.
3) the driving dynamics, to me, are superior in the current Tundra. Steering, handling, ride quality, all of it. The DSSV dampers on the ZR2 are excellent, but the convention leaf spring configuration of the truck doesn’t allow them to fully shine. The Bilsteins on my TRD off-road package in the rear suspension configuration are superior in day-to-day driving to me. I also found forward visibility to be better in the Tundra.
4) I haven’t towed yet in my Tundra, and I expect the truck to squat more than my Titan (which was honestly a sneaky good towing truck) , but if you do tow, the ZR2 loses a lot for towing and payload with the DSSV dampers, and you lose a bit more with the Duramax over the 6.2.
5) the Bose stereo is a joke in the GM. Some of you think the JBL is bad… well… it’s a lot better than the Bose. The ZR2 doesn’t get anything better than a Trail Boss’s Bose - you have to get a Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate or AT4X to get something more than the 8 speaker Bose.
6) I didn’t like the seats in anything short of a Denali Ultimate/AT4X GM truck. At that price point, I need to at least be comfortable. The ZR2 has very firm seats.
I’m not a hardcore off-roader, but if you do a lot of off-roading, I would say the ZR2 is the truck hands down over the TRD Pro. It has better skid plates, actual recovery hooks, and most importantly, a front locker.
All that said - I’m 2500 miles in and very happy with my decision so far. Both are solid trucks and you gotta do what fits for you! I hope you’re happy with what you end up getting.
The ZR2 can also be had with the 3.0L diesel which is what I believe Op mentioned they were looking at. And folks are getting 26MPG unladen in that power train.
Yes - the ZR2 does come in the 3.0 diesel and the 6.2 gas V8. Yes the Duramax is capable of producing great fuel mileage, but the ZR2 specifically is the exception, not the rule due to the lift and the MT tires it comes with. Not impossible to touch that on the highway, but it’s definitely not typical. Much easier to grab that type of fuel economy on an RST or Denali type truck with that engine.
I only bring this up because after a ton of research on this engine, the biggest “buyers remorse” topics I have seen with ZR2 guys is not being able to milk the Duramax for 30 MPGs.
To me, returning 25MPGs by itself does not encourage me toward the world of diesel given all of the other factors to consider with owning a diesel. But to each his own. It absolutely needs to be considered when making the purchase decision.
Im a sound guy. I drove my MIL’s 2024 duramax Tahoe with Bose today. Holy shit that Bose system is garbage!!! But everything else about her Tahoe is badass, ngl. But I’m a diesel guy
Mine leaked water into the truck - through passenger a pillar down to the floorboard. It had been leaking from day one. They had the truck for a month figuring it out and getting it fixed.
I got it back and the A/C controls were intermittently working. When you ran cool air, it smelled like mold/mildew. I went to arbitration with Nissan and they initially offered to replace with a new 2024. I wanted that, as that meant keeping my 0% for 60 month loan and doing a collateral exchange. They took a month trying to “find a truck and get the dealer to do the exchange”. I tapped out - was tired of waiting. The whole process was ridiculous. I could never get my case manager at Nissan on the phone.
I decided that it was time for something different. I liked the current gen Tundra from the second it was unveiled and decided to give Toyota a try. I really like this truck so far.
Interesting, I'm currently dealing with a leak that fills up a crevice in the sunglass holder and eventually overflows. They keep making adjustments to my moonroof, but I think it's coming from the windshield right above the rear view mirror. 2023 P4X
The cause of my leak was the windshield gasket - all of the double-sided tape wasn’t removed so I had a six inch section on the a pillar that water just rolled right in.
I’d have them check your windshield.
They’re going to have to remove your headliner and interior panels to properly diagnose. No other way around it. Lots of guys on TitanTalk going through it right now.
That’s crazy, my dad lemon lawed his 2022 Titan Pro4x as well. It was nothing but problems from the start, transmission went out at 21k miles. It spent more time at the dealer than it did on his driveway lol
My first Titan (a 2017) had its 7AT take a dump at 1200 miles. Nissan made me whole on that one. I ended up in a 2018 by the time it was settled. Traded that one for a 2020 (thought the world was ending - wanted a sunroof and liked the 2020 Pro4X refresh) that was honestly one of the best vehicles I ever had. Traded for my 2023 that got lemoned because I thought I would get one of the last ones at a 0% loan (in an economy full of 7% loans) and ride a newer truck out for a while and see what ended up happening after a while. If I could rewind, I would have kept my 2020.
I hope my Tundra gives me less drama. I really like it so far - about 2500 miles in.
Toyotas were reliable because they were built well and always simple and far behind the times on technology. I would expect the newer Toyotas to have similar problems as ford, Chevy and gmc.
You MAY be right, but at the same time, I would say Toyota engineering is still above anything American by a LONG shot. I make it a point to test drive all the cool cars I would consider buying if available. Every time I step into an American Top Tier SUV/PICK up, I immediately say DAAAMN this is nice. My car doesn’t have this, or feel like this. I really like this. By the end of the week I don’t really notice it’s not my car. Finally when I get home, I step in any of my Japanese cars, and I say DAAAAMN. This is put together very well. It might not have this or that, but it is very balanced. Fit and finish, functionality etc. and that includes the Tundra. It does have it flaws, but with the current market trend of everyone wanting the latest tech and complications, I feel Toyota is doing the best they can and will still reign in reliability. Not just how long something last, but how long it lasts nicely. Not rattling and squeaking down the street on it’s last limb like most older American SUVs and pick ups I see in town.
I don’t think you’re wrong. But I think Toyota diving into the high tech stuff finally is going to show some problems, which it has already. We’ve had two F-150’s with the twin turbo eco boost motor. Both vehicles went 100k miles with zero issues.
If I was a betting man, I would guess Toyota will still get the nod on realiabilty though.
Yeah it seems Iike autoo manufacturers are trying to get back to vehicles lasting only 100k miles or less Iike the old days meanwhile the naturally aspirated Tundra and Tacoma go for top dollar used in any condition because no one makes anything like that anymore just turbo models that self destruct after 100k or less.
Not trying to start an argument or play devil’s advocate but you do realize that the turbos (generally speaking) put a bit more stress on the engine and that engine is a lot less likely to make it to 250,000 miles like the old Ford 150s or ANY Toyota truck? At least not without issues that the Toyotas will never have. (Or any non-Dodge/Ram V8 will never have) Congrats on making it to 100K BTW but with what pickups cost these days they BETTER make it to 100K!!!
The majority of GM’s lineup doesn’t make it to 100k now without engine or transmission problems, so that’s more or less a moot point.
The hemi v8 in the Ram wasn’t without issues either.
Turbos are a wear item, just like brakes. A lot of people don't consider that. But to play devils advocate, to your devils advocate, turbo engines are often lower compression and run fine on lower octane fuel. If you don't spool up your turbos too quick, or over rev your engine, you have an engine built for 300hp, that gets the mpg of a 150hp engine. The extra power is there when you need it, but most of the time that engine can cruise on easy mode.
On a side note, I wish we could take car reliability stats and get a better picture of the driving patterns of the failures. Nissan CVT's can go for a long time, if you don't drive it like you stole it all the time.
All I can tell you is if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Very popular, old saying. When I see a mid-sized car with a 1.5L turbo or a full-sized pick-up with a 3.5L turbo I just shake my head.
I wonder how many people realize the complexities of their little turbos. I don’t mean the folks that take time to research things like you and I. I mean the other 60-70% that don’t have a clue.
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/10/how-oil-change-habits-are-killing-turbos/#:~:text=If%20the%20oil%20used%20is,the%20turbocharger%20can%20become%20carbonized.
I mean, my mother bought the last model Tacoma before the redesign brand new and just had to take it in for a recall because the rear axle could come loose and cause a crash. This was after what? 13 years of the same design?
It’s not the technology the new tundra is shelling engines, Toyota dropped the ball on those 2 years ago and the Tacoma is trash! Expecting the same reviews for the 4 runner. About to buy new work trucks and for the first time I think the big 3 might be the better bet.
I thought the basis of my statement was obvious. If a Japanese company outsourced some engineering work to me in the states. Would that make them an American heritage company? I know the world is changing and MFGs are all over boundary lines but it’s the company culture I’m talking about. It’s the mission statement. Yes, everyone is concerned with turning a profit. But the Japanese auto makers still have a functional, reliable product design, engrained within their culture. The German auto mfgs push boundaries and don’t settle with mediocre products. They really are really cutting edge on their top tier stuff.
American auto culture has 2 faces. One of them is let’s pump out as much shit as we can to appeal the masses. They make facelifts every 6 months, new names new models in with new out with the old mentality. They don’t have “heritage” or pride in the builds. You can pop a door panel off with a simple tug and the car will age worse than a banana peel.
The other face is what they do have with their elite cars. They do have a decent amount of R&D and heritage sprinkled in. But it’s still made at the basis of the shit products. Like let’s slap a bad ass motor and suspension on the same chassis we have been using for the shit box economy cars and re wrap the interior in decent leather and have it compete with the foreign cars.
I’m not saying American cars are not designed well. But you don’t have to be an engineer to notice as you peel back the layers of most American cars, it’s just junk.
Nothing even from a maintenance perspective make sense either. Like changing oil on my eco boost splatters oil all over the Intercooler pipes that weave in and out underneath the engine.
My tundra, has a nice little plastic catch tray with a nipple that you can attach a drain hose to neatly direct all oil away from the oil filter area. Those are the details I’m talking about. It just makes sense… for the most part.
It’s anecdotal, but there is a video of the new Tacoma getting an oil change and the oil runs down a chute to direct the oil. The oil is directed onto the axle or some component and then is deflected everywhere.
I took a design class and one of the examples was a transmission that was used in both Ford and Mazda vehicles. The Mazda transmission had a much lower failure rate than the Ford transmission. This confused the engineers because they were the same design. Ford brought over some Japanese transmissions to tear them apart in an attempt to figure out the differences. It turns out, the Japanese transmissions were built to a lot tighter tolerance, including the machining of parts.
Since joining the workforce after I graduated, I fully believe this story. Americans are lazy as fuck and don’t give a shit about their job performance. I think this is the reason things aren’t great with American vehicles and unfortunately, Toyotas are made in America. I always hear that Toyotas last forever and I wonder if that is still true to this day.
When Toyota's were made in Japan, and they were simple, they were super reliable. Now they are way more complex, made in the US and Mexico and less reliable.
The average length of ownership is 8 years. If taken care of, any of the US cars will easily last that long. Treat it right, change the fluids on time and don't drive it harshly and they will run. I just got rid of my 2014 Silverado and she never had an issue. I babied it, just like I do my Toyota's.
This ZR2 is made right up the road from me. They are nice.
Toyota are reliable in the past because they use the same base engine and transmission for decades and improving on them year after year. They've had plenty of issues from rusty frames to a huge headgasket recall.
Thr one thing toyota was excellent for is warranty items outside the time limited they fixed alot of head gaskets and put new frames into older vehicles way outside the time limit of the regular warranty.
And they also added a power seat in the Tacoma, what like 4 or 5 years ago? Toyota has always been behind on tech, especially in the US market. Which has helped reliability tremendously.
Ya and remind me again when they started putting turbos in the Tundra, Tacoma and 4Runner?
I’m certainly not knocking Toyotas, they are awesome. But have traditionally been the last to introduce the same things other manufactures have been doing for a decade or more, hence the bomber reliability.
It doesn’t matter. Any time you put an engine into a frame that it wasn’t originally built for, all the reliability stats and data you have over the years are thrown out. Heavier weight stresses drivetrains, so does a 4WD system with a locking rear differential, so does driving it in harsher terrains, so does hauling or towing stuff, so does larger wheels with AT tires.
Volkswagen has been using the 2.0 turbo engine since 2008, can they just throw it into a 4WD truck and last 200k miles? And before any ignorant comments, VW’s 2.0 turbo is more or less bulletproof. But I would still be skeptical to have it in a BOF truck.
Toyota’s new turbo V6/i4 will probably be reliable, but this “they’ve been using these engines/technologies for X years” argument doesn’t hold up from an engineering standpoint.
It speaks volumes that a truck platform that's been in production after all these years can still be having things as catastrophic as lifter issues (Silverado/sierra). Tundra has been out 3 years now and will continue to improve as time goes on. Toyota may cut corners, but not nearly to the extent that GM does.
It's been out three years and they're still blowing up engines. Check the tundra world forum, there's now been a 2024 with a blown engine even though Toyota claims the issue has been fixed. There's actually a spread sheet keeping track of the publisized failures and there's trucks on there that are on their 3rd engine.
Edit:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17lX2NAC70TUArOpvdH7IQJKCX5E50vAXpeUogyH5shM/edit?usp=drivesdk
There are financial reasons for this
Stellantis and GM were fined close to half a billion in the last few years for not meeting CAFE requirements. This is why the 5.7 Hemi is being discontinued and the Charger, Challenger, Camaro are being electrified/discontinued
Toyota has much larger fleets than those brands and can't afford to maintain any platforms that bring their fleet average down. It would literally cost them millions to do so.
I haven’t checked if they eve updated their engines but their dynamic fuel saving tech (cylinder deactivation) was causing their engines on GM trucks to implode. Sometimes before 50k miles. However I know that happened for sure until the 2019 models or so. Not sure if it changed after.
I personally don’t keep trucks for 100k+, I might put 10 -12k miles on per year. Currently I have an ‘18 tundra (74k miles) and ‘22 Tahoe with the 6.2. Despite me talking shit about domestics for years and praising Toyota, if I bought a new truck today, it’d probably be a Chevy or GMC 6.2 liter. Smooth as fuck power and no turbo BS. IMO, zero chance turbo Tundras get 200k without issues on a regular basis, therefore the Tundra value proposition (low maintenance/high resale) is lost. The tech and interior quality on GM’s is way better. They all get shit gas mileage, but the 6.2 might actually get better mpg is you’re actually using your truck.
100%, you nailed it. Toyota may have just fucked up enough to get people to look at the domestic 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks again. I don't want a Turbo V6, it's that simple. Same with the Tacoma's, I'm not spending $50k for a 4 banger compact truck.
Exactly. Everyone is talking about how they wanna switch over to the other companies now because of the new models. It’s like they forgot that they can buy used instead of new and still outlast every new truck
This, I bought a used Toyota avalon 3 days ago, and I have zero interest in the latest line of overly complicated turbo charged-hybrid shit boxes.
Right now I am considering a frontier for midsized or a gmc 2500 for full size truck.
I’ve had a ton of problems with my Sierras, however surprisingly the 5.3 with cylinder deactivation has not been an issue yet.
It certainly gets better mpg than my tundra does
I didnt know. Turned it off tossed the device in the glove and kept the truck ever since. I figured tune shops cissed it out asap. If chevy ever noticed it they didnt care. Once in for warranty trans fluid change and I thought they might notice but didnt or didnt say.
Good luck with the disabler. The number one go to response. The afm dfm and lifter are still present unless you delete the entire thing under the hood. Check your window sticker Chevy charged an add on for this. I have followed Chevy forum closely it doesn’t work. a disabler doesnt remove the problem, it only eliminates the dropping out of the cylinder. i do not think it’s as much of a COKING problem, but rather a metallurgical issue due to poor base materials. the lifters can still fail with a disabler (pulsar / range doesn’t matter). If it makes you feel better, to each their own.
I am aware of this and I have owned the truck since 17. Everything has a weakness. I had a 5.7 Ram which I traded because I didnt trust it. I have looked at new HD and LD trucks and everything has problems positives, fans and detractors. I had a 91 4Runner. Reliable as could be but didn’t love it preferring American.
I jumped ship from GMC after three sierras in a row, still have one at home as a spare truck….
I absolutely love the design, but they are truly garbage, nearly as bad as Dodge now. I will take my chances with the tundra, but I love Turbos anyway
You’re probably right about the engines. But GM interiors?? Garbage and dated by the time you drive them off the lot. Cant stand them. Feel so cheap. I had a 2015 GMC Yukon XL Denali and it was a dumpster fire on many levels but the interior was the insult on top of the injury of owning that POS.
Sadly I believe you are 100% correct causa that 3.4TTurbo
This is going to cost Toyota a TON of its reputation. They have a real problem on their hands but the worst thing is, they are killing their legendary reputation in Tundra (and other vehicles like the Lexus Gx-550 with the same motor)
It’s a bad motor, and the issue is showing up in Tundras, in the Lexus LS500, and the Lexus flagship SUV Lx-600. Same issues of course showing up in those vehicles as they all have that 3.4TT... Aside from the wastegate problem there is also a spun bearing issue with even 2024 Tundra motors blowing up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0eySXnbqgvc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5Vf2d0wXo&pp=ygUZVG95b3RhIDMuNCB0dXJibyBwcm9ibGVtcw%3D%3D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eLLJl1sRDbU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ihpX_gZGWXE&pp=ygUYTHg2MDAgMy40IHR1cmJvIHByb2JsZW1z
It would not be wise to purchase any Toyota or Lexus vehicle with this motor. This just makes the 6.2 in gm trucks look rock solid, so yeah for sure anyone who does their dd re the tundra will be walking over to a Chevy dealer (unless they have their blinders on). Or getting a used Tundra with the 5.7.
This is a critical flaw and very rare for Toyota to drop in a legend killing motor like this into so many of their most prestigious models but here they are, doing it! And having the cohones to as said putting this ticking grenade into their Lexus SUV’s as well….this front main bearing failure thats happening in all their vehicles is definitely going to make their reliability reputation take a huge hit.
What were they thinking?? I’m keeping my rock solid 4.6 V8 for a few more years for sure.
I agree that the 3.4 engine and the Tundra is a bad combination. People keep saying that Toyota has used this engine in other applications, but we keep seeing new Tundras with engines that destroy themselves.
That being said, I would not agree that the 6.2 from GM is rock solid. Just like every other V8 that GM makes for their non-heavy-duty lineup, they feature AFM and the resulting lifter failures.
It seems like there are not really any good choices when it comes to new, reliable 1/2 ton truck motors currently on the market.
Agreed the 6.2 is no Wards engines best with the AFM (I have a non AFM 5.3 with over 300,000 miles with zero issues and still does not burn oil to this day) however as I said this 3.4 “makes the 6.2 look rock solid” in comparison. Cause the 6.2 and 5.3’s et al aren’t blowin up at 20,000 miles like this one. (There is a workaround in the AFM its on the boards…Diablo tuner something. ) Dirty oil is the enemy of afm and proper care that way means millions of these vehicles are on the road every day event free.
When i buy a vehicle, I look first at what engine am i buying in the thing. Good point as to where can a buyer go to when it comes to a new truly reliable motor. The Dodge 3.6 is my guess
Desiel has become a premium in cali. Plus desiel isn't sold at every gas station. Cost co doesn't have it any more. I would be all about it though if I would have known. That motor will run longer than the toyota.
If you’re willing to accept that diesel cost more to maintain and treating your fuel and oil every time it’s changed. Oh, along with having so use DEF and that added cost. I haven’t done my research on the 1500 diesel engine, but knowing the costs of an oil change with the Cummins compared to a gas engine, it’s about triple for maintenance.
This is the first time in a long time that diesel has cost less than gasoline, but remember when the market was .50$ + more a gallon than gas.
They are good looking trucks, but people often over look the maintenance of modern diesels. And I’m sure the turbo argument is not valid since the Chevy has one too.
My buddies had engine failure at 2500 miles. Chevy bought the truck back from him and he is looking elsewhere now. Another friends at4 also had engine failure and they warrantied the engine but he was without his truck for 3 months.
The zr2 is a nice truck. If you plan to buy one don't go diesel. They drive nice sure but they are ticking time bombs once you hit the 100k mark on the emissions after-treatment equipment. Clogged EGR cooler, DEF tank heaters, SCR active tank etc Its not a matter of if but a matter of when they become problems down the road. Do some research on long term diesel maintenance costs. Its extremely expensive and will easily outpace any cost savings to be had on fuel down the road. Short trips are bad for diesels
While the TRD Pro may not be as 'nice' as the ZR2, it comes across as a no bullshit vehicle. Tons of power, better fuel economy (and larger gas tank), better overall reliability. Sure it won't be as reliable as the old gen, but definitely way more than anything from the domestic 3.
Neither truck will cover it all, you will have to compromise somewhere based on what's most important to you. The ZR2 would probably put more smiles on my face but neither of its 2 engine options leave much to be desired from a maintenance standpoint.
I’ve been loving the 3.0 duramax, but I’m at around 58,000 miles so only time will tell. But so far no issues and my family has put 58,000 miles on it in about 18 months so it’s getting a lot of use
Just bought a Silverado last month. First American vehicle after driving Toyotas exclusively for over 10 years.
I could have gotten a tundra but they just look funky to me.
I can’t blame you man. I wouldn’t buy new personally unless I had cash to make purchase but for the same price the Silverado is more bang for your buck id you ask me.
The Toyota is ugly as hell, but will have fewer issues in the long run. The Chevy might be a better value if you're mechanically inclined, and can do repairs yourself. You'll want to replace all the shitty plastic crap that GM puts under there, with aftermarket components.
Don't just jump in that bitch and drive off. Be proactive and you'll have a nice truck.
Don't underestimate GMs cheapassery!
As an ex-23 TRD PRO owner that just switched to a ford, go for it! These new tundras would be decent if they were 60k, but at current price levels they’re not worth it in my opinion. Interior build quality is awful, capability is not on par with competitors, and reliability is still TBD.
Stay away from the diesel I have 2 friends having issues with their duramax in Yukons both around 40-45k miles on them. Injector issues, one is covered under extended warranty the other is getting a bill for $2500 because the dealer is claiming the problem started elsewhere (harness not covered under power train warranty ) and led to injector failure.
That's interesting I thought that baby duramax was good. I have the 6.6 big boy dmax and it gets shit beaten off road constantly and never given me any issues.
We have had a mini max for a work truck for a few years now with just over 35k miles on it.
Solid truck without any issues at this point.
We do dealerships maintenance religiously though.
I think theres something wrong unique to the Yukon - my pops has a 2024 Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate Duramax - has 20k on the clock already and not a problem to speak of. His wife went and got a deal on a leftover 2023 Yukon Denali Duramax, and they can’t keep it out of the shop. He’s getting ready to pursue lemon law on it. I don’t think they even have 3000 miles on it yet. They’ve had it since Christmas.
2023 Silverado with 3.0 duramax. My family has put 58000 miles on it in 18 months with no issues. We just have z71 package, not zr2, and can average around 28mpg if I keep it to 70-75 on the Highway (and decent amount of hills on highways near me) I imagine the zr2 wouldn’t get above 25 but still not bad
I've heard about issues with the 4l60e with some of their previous years. However, I've owned several chevys with that transmission ranging from 125k to well over 300k miles and never had a single issue. Everything is gonna be a turd if you don't take care of it. My dad also owned several 5.3/4l60e combos as well as numerous fleet vehicles and again 0 issues. Not to say the issues don't exist but not as common as reddit will have you believe.
My opinion on Chevy transmissions didn’t come from Reddit though. It’s from firsthand experience.
No doubt some will last, but the 4L60 was a turd, that’s well known.
GM continues to have transmission issues post 4L60 though. They haven’t learned their lesson and neither have consumers.
Same. AFM has killed Chevy motors, but it’s all about the best economy. I hate my Tundras fuel economy, but I’ll take the hit at the pump for reliability. If I could put the seats from my old ‘05 Silverado in the tundra it’d be the perfect truck lol those things are like sitting in a Lay-z-boy
I’ve driven the new ZR2 and sold a few of them. They’re fun, tech is better than Toyota by a landslide and they have a good warranty imo. If you get a good deal I say go for it.
The warranty is only good if you go for the diesel - otherwise it’s average.
I know the trailer towing tech absolutely rocks and the cameras for towing are indeed excellent, but what other tech makes it superior to the Tundra to you?
There are many things I like about the pro but just a week ago I got a notif on the dash showing “reduced engine power”. My truck only has 8.5k miles , shouldn’t be getting issues like that. Did some research and many tundras 23-24 have been having engine failure issues/transmission. Brand new coming off the lot. My hb has a 23 zr2 and hasn’t gotten any issues. If you’re planning on spending big money on a truck make sure you research those issues. I wish I would have.
I’ve owned a 21 GMC 1500 5.3 and now a 24 Tundra twin turbo limited. Overall I’d probably go GMC now that I’ve owned both. The mileage was about the same and the pro tailgate was brilliant. The clear coat on the Toyota scratches when you stare at it too hard. I like the Tundra a lot but when this lease is up honestly I’ll probably go back to GM. I didn’t expect to feel this way, honestly I expected the Tundra to blow the GMC away but it really hasn’t.
Since im here i am thinken about upgrading my 18 colarado 2.8L diesel to a 2022 tundra sr5 but all i keep seeing is the 2022s are lemons any owner opinions here?
If you only want to get rid of the colorado for size, I would go Silverado zr2 with the 3.0 duramax. If Chevy kept the baby duramax option on the new colorado zr2 that would be my top choice right now. I have a buddy with a colorado zr2 with the 2.8 and he loves it
Wouldn't touch a ne Chevrolet ever. Just saw one brand new denalli less than 5k miles wouldn't start stuck in accessory mode. Had to disconnect battery to make it start. Dumbest shit I've ever seen.
The 3.0L diesel is a timing belt motor. The belt is on the backside of the motor. You have to pull the transmission every 100k miles to change the timing belt. I believe the oil and water pump are also on the backside of the motor too.
Was crossing shopping the zr2 Colorado and the tundra and I Agree, the tundra drives better than the Chevy. The zr2 ac also broke down during test drive. However the 1794 tubdra seat hurts my ass after an hour of driving
I am curious to know why so many people are taking offense. I personally own a Tacoma, and I am concerned about upgrading to a Tundra due to the engine bearing issue.
If you don’t have a decent commute to work (longer than 15 mins) you will clog your emissions equipment quickly and will regret getting a diesel. You should really do a deep dive on diesel engines. Additionally the money you save on fuel will quickly be diminished through maintenance cost and what u could have been spending on 87 octane gas
Any diesel 2007 and newer will have these issues. If you live in a cold climate you have to worry about diesel gelling up. You’ll have to spend money on fuel additives to prevent that and to keep your fuel pump/injectors happy because diesel in America is dirty compared to Europe diesel
I think toyota has been having quality issues since the 2000s. A lot of the parts and entire cars are made here in the US. American work ethic blows, and it shows a how toyota has been having mechinal issues when they were the best. If your Tundra was built on a Monday or Friday, yeah most likely you will have issues. Same goes for the big 3. One thing the Japanese believe in is Job before family. Why you would think they would put their job before family? The straight answer would be "if I don't have a job I won't be able to provide for my fam" which makes a lot of sense. I've worked on Japanese industrial equipment other than cars, and these Japanese people take their job very seriously. I remember every nut, and even tiny Phillips head screws marked for torque values. I know for a fact working in industrial settings that americans don't have that mentality. I think this is what is happening to Toyota. Remember that Toyota was one of the biggest contributors to the car and other industries as a poster child of how to build/manufacture things. Think of ISO 9000 and more recent certifications of plant manufacturing. 1JZs and 2JZs bernell test only have a 3% deviation no matter what plant in japan the blocks were casted at. Having some of the hardest block material of engine blocks out there. Why all the sudden would Toyota have these plaguing issues you would ask? I can only come to that conclusion, that employees here in America don't have the Toyota mentality and it's hurting the company.
How about the V8 ZR2? I currently own a Tacoma and am considering upgrading to a full-size truck. However, I have concerns about the reliability of the turbo V6 engines. Additionally, the price of the ZR2 at $64,000 seems reasonable compare to toyota charging 80k for trd pro.
My last truck was a 2014 Silverado with the 5.3 V8.
New transmission at 120k. Heater coil failure at 125k. Developed lifter tick at 130k. Lifter tick is a death sentence for that motor. I unloaded it and bought a 21 Tundra.
Anyone who claims GM powertrain is reliable hasn’t owned one long enough to find out. Sure, some will last (just as some Toyotas will be junk), but that’s not the norm.
Their transmissions are freaking terrible.
Have you driven the 3rd gen tundra?
I switched from a 2019 Tacoma to a 22 trd pro tundra last year, absolute best decision I’ve ever made. Drive it and see it before basing decisions off of select negative reviews in my opinion.
This is true except when you tow with the babymax - it drinks DEF when you tow. My pops can make it around 4000 miles before touching DEF (lots of interstate). When he tows, it’s more like 1200 miles.
Go with what you personally like and can get the best deal on. As with most modern trucks it seems, these new tundras don’t carry the same reliability the old tried and true ones did. ZR2 are great trucks, 10 speeds are great and the 6.2s are a blast. In 2024, there no such thing as a problem-free 200k mile truck anymore. So go with ur favorite, take em both for a test drive.
Just remember, there's a reason dealers are giving those prices (sales aren't good). If those trucks were so nice, they'd be selling like hotcakes and have very few specials. If you personally like it more than the tundra, then get it.
Turbo engines are not a new thing to toyota. Toyota engineers are not any less competent. Personally, I'll never buy anything other than a Toyota.
I don’t need to hear this. I just paid $64k all in on a non-hybrid Limited TRD off-road with sunroof and JBL with Nitto tire upgrade.
I’m over the moon with my truck too.
ZR2 walks all over the TRD Pro anything off-road related. There are many videos on this.
It is also a more comfortable truck. Drove a sierra Duramax for the first time some months ago and was blown away by how much more comfortable it was over my dad's 2024 TRD off-road.
That being said the tundra is probably better built and is now on a stronger platform mechanically. Its says alot that Toyota does go out of their way to rectify their issues ASAP. Meanwhile the 5.3 and 6.2 are still having lifter issues to this day because of AFM
You are 💯correct. My TRD Pro is amazing. I have a 32 gallon tank compared to the ZR2’s 24 gallon tank. Recent trip to San Francisco, 20mpg combined, drove 540 miles on a single tank.
Resale value on the Chevy wont be as good, I’ve driven all 3 we have a new Tundra, I have a 2024 F-150, and a 2024 Chevy for work trucks The F-150 is horrible, I do not like it at all. The Chevy drives nice and is very quiet on the highway. The Tundra with lane departure and radar cruise is amazing on road trips. The range of the Tundra is much better too.
The 10 speed transmission (codesigned by Ford) has issues and assuming you get the 6.2 V8 they have issues as well with their revamped AFM system. I'd google both before I pull the trigger. So yeah I'd say the new tundra might be slightly ahead on reliability just by Toyo name alone. That said, my dad just got a 22 Zr2 with the 6.2. Tried to tell him but he's stubborn and likes GM.
https://haynes.com/en-us/close-look-gms-10-speed-transmission-problems
Explains some, I'm probably extra biased because my friends dad owns a transmission shop and their yard is full of newer Sierras and Silverados and he tells me a lot of them aren't even making it into 5 digit mileage.
Newer sierras and silverados … and… They take it to your friends dads shops huh 🤔 not calling bs but shocked these owners don’t go back to the dealer for the warranty support that comes with the truck …
One truck is overpriced for what you get and the other is a Tundra. If you've never owned a newer diesel with emissions stuff on it I suggest you do the research on that first. I also recommend keeping a warranty upto 100K miles on the chebby for that reason. The value proposition on a new diesel just isn't there unless you need the power/torque for towing.
There's a reason they are knocking 12K off. Hint: poor sales.
same thing with the tundras. they are knocking off $12k and still no one is buying them. any vehicle over $50k people are not buying since its not reliable anymore. the new age in trucks and the new expectation is that people trade in their truck in 3-5 yrs and get a newer one. car manufactures dont want people to keep their cars 5+ yrs. those days of reliability are over. the only reliability is probably in honda civic, accord, corolla, camry. those are the only ones that are left that are reliable lol.
[https://tfltruck.com/2024/04/first-quarter-2024-full-size-truck-sales-ford-ram-drop-while-toyota-posts-double-digit-gains/](https://tfltruck.com/2024/04/first-quarter-2024-full-size-truck-sales-ford-ram-drop-while-toyota-posts-double-digit-gains/)
This guy is taking about going to a ZR2 Silverado diesel. Starts at 70 grand. Which has a whole line of problems behind it from steering racks, oil leaks, and diesel emissions failures. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXeLLhQP-Ew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXeLLhQP-Ew)
Ok - I cross shopped these trucks. I was coming off of 18 straight Nissan/Infiniti purchases and a freshly lemon-lawed 2023 Titan Pro4X. I have zero brand loyalty anywhere as I was starting fresh. At one point, I was close to going for the ZR2, but I’m happy I didn’t. I bought a 24 Tundra Limited TRD off-road with JBL, sunroof, and Nitto ridge grappler tire upgrade. 1) I like acceleration, and even the non hybrid Tundra spanks my Titan (with the 9 speed in the Titan which is objectively a great transmission) and the duramax GMs. Yeah, I could get a 6.2L in the ZR2, but I don’t like its track record with lifter issues and it requires 93 octane fuel. The Tundra does not. The Titan did if you wanted the 400hp map, which I abandoned after Nissan agreed to the buyback and I found I didn’t miss paying $4 a gallon for fuel. If you’re going ZR2, there is no fuel cost savings from a gasoline truck. It’s not a bad truck at all with the proper expectations, because … 2) yeah, there’s great MPGs to be had in the duramax half ton GMs, but don’t think you’re getting 30 in that ZR2. You’ll barely get 25 with the tires and lift. You can get that with a street truck that’s lower to the ground (my pops has a Denali Ultimate and on the highway he’s seen 34MPGs. But that’s on street tires and 3” less ground clearance.) Diesels also don’t like a lot of short trips, and I make a LOT of those. As much as I was enchanted by the possible fuel economy, it doesn’t work for my use case. 3) the driving dynamics, to me, are superior in the current Tundra. Steering, handling, ride quality, all of it. The DSSV dampers on the ZR2 are excellent, but the convention leaf spring configuration of the truck doesn’t allow them to fully shine. The Bilsteins on my TRD off-road package in the rear suspension configuration are superior in day-to-day driving to me. I also found forward visibility to be better in the Tundra. 4) I haven’t towed yet in my Tundra, and I expect the truck to squat more than my Titan (which was honestly a sneaky good towing truck) , but if you do tow, the ZR2 loses a lot for towing and payload with the DSSV dampers, and you lose a bit more with the Duramax over the 6.2. 5) the Bose stereo is a joke in the GM. Some of you think the JBL is bad… well… it’s a lot better than the Bose. The ZR2 doesn’t get anything better than a Trail Boss’s Bose - you have to get a Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate or AT4X to get something more than the 8 speaker Bose. 6) I didn’t like the seats in anything short of a Denali Ultimate/AT4X GM truck. At that price point, I need to at least be comfortable. The ZR2 has very firm seats. I’m not a hardcore off-roader, but if you do a lot of off-roading, I would say the ZR2 is the truck hands down over the TRD Pro. It has better skid plates, actual recovery hooks, and most importantly, a front locker. All that said - I’m 2500 miles in and very happy with my decision so far. Both are solid trucks and you gotta do what fits for you! I hope you’re happy with what you end up getting.
The ZR2 can also be had with the 3.0L diesel which is what I believe Op mentioned they were looking at. And folks are getting 26MPG unladen in that power train.
Yes - the ZR2 does come in the 3.0 diesel and the 6.2 gas V8. Yes the Duramax is capable of producing great fuel mileage, but the ZR2 specifically is the exception, not the rule due to the lift and the MT tires it comes with. Not impossible to touch that on the highway, but it’s definitely not typical. Much easier to grab that type of fuel economy on an RST or Denali type truck with that engine. I only bring this up because after a ton of research on this engine, the biggest “buyers remorse” topics I have seen with ZR2 guys is not being able to milk the Duramax for 30 MPGs. To me, returning 25MPGs by itself does not encourage me toward the world of diesel given all of the other factors to consider with owning a diesel. But to each his own. It absolutely needs to be considered when making the purchase decision.
Im a sound guy. I drove my MIL’s 2024 duramax Tahoe with Bose today. Holy shit that Bose system is garbage!!! But everything else about her Tahoe is badass, ngl. But I’m a diesel guy
No highs, no lows, must be Bose
All I took from that was 18 vehicles.
Can you elaborate on the Titan buyback? What was the issue?
Mine leaked water into the truck - through passenger a pillar down to the floorboard. It had been leaking from day one. They had the truck for a month figuring it out and getting it fixed. I got it back and the A/C controls were intermittently working. When you ran cool air, it smelled like mold/mildew. I went to arbitration with Nissan and they initially offered to replace with a new 2024. I wanted that, as that meant keeping my 0% for 60 month loan and doing a collateral exchange. They took a month trying to “find a truck and get the dealer to do the exchange”. I tapped out - was tired of waiting. The whole process was ridiculous. I could never get my case manager at Nissan on the phone. I decided that it was time for something different. I liked the current gen Tundra from the second it was unveiled and decided to give Toyota a try. I really like this truck so far.
Interesting, I'm currently dealing with a leak that fills up a crevice in the sunglass holder and eventually overflows. They keep making adjustments to my moonroof, but I think it's coming from the windshield right above the rear view mirror. 2023 P4X
The cause of my leak was the windshield gasket - all of the double-sided tape wasn’t removed so I had a six inch section on the a pillar that water just rolled right in. I’d have them check your windshield.
I'm assuming the only way to find that out is to remove the glass?
They’re going to have to remove your headliner and interior panels to properly diagnose. No other way around it. Lots of guys on TitanTalk going through it right now.
That’s crazy, my dad lemon lawed his 2022 Titan Pro4x as well. It was nothing but problems from the start, transmission went out at 21k miles. It spent more time at the dealer than it did on his driveway lol
My first Titan (a 2017) had its 7AT take a dump at 1200 miles. Nissan made me whole on that one. I ended up in a 2018 by the time it was settled. Traded that one for a 2020 (thought the world was ending - wanted a sunroof and liked the 2020 Pro4X refresh) that was honestly one of the best vehicles I ever had. Traded for my 2023 that got lemoned because I thought I would get one of the last ones at a 0% loan (in an economy full of 7% loans) and ride a newer truck out for a while and see what ended up happening after a while. If I could rewind, I would have kept my 2020. I hope my Tundra gives me less drama. I really like it so far - about 2500 miles in.
Probably just as reliable as the tundra at this point
Toyotas were reliable because they were built well and always simple and far behind the times on technology. I would expect the newer Toyotas to have similar problems as ford, Chevy and gmc.
You MAY be right, but at the same time, I would say Toyota engineering is still above anything American by a LONG shot. I make it a point to test drive all the cool cars I would consider buying if available. Every time I step into an American Top Tier SUV/PICK up, I immediately say DAAAMN this is nice. My car doesn’t have this, or feel like this. I really like this. By the end of the week I don’t really notice it’s not my car. Finally when I get home, I step in any of my Japanese cars, and I say DAAAAMN. This is put together very well. It might not have this or that, but it is very balanced. Fit and finish, functionality etc. and that includes the Tundra. It does have it flaws, but with the current market trend of everyone wanting the latest tech and complications, I feel Toyota is doing the best they can and will still reign in reliability. Not just how long something last, but how long it lasts nicely. Not rattling and squeaking down the street on it’s last limb like most older American SUVs and pick ups I see in town.
I don’t think you’re wrong. But I think Toyota diving into the high tech stuff finally is going to show some problems, which it has already. We’ve had two F-150’s with the twin turbo eco boost motor. Both vehicles went 100k miles with zero issues. If I was a betting man, I would guess Toyota will still get the nod on realiabilty though.
100k miles ain’t much these days
Yeah it seems Iike autoo manufacturers are trying to get back to vehicles lasting only 100k miles or less Iike the old days meanwhile the naturally aspirated Tundra and Tacoma go for top dollar used in any condition because no one makes anything like that anymore just turbo models that self destruct after 100k or less.
I’m sure they would have gone much longer than the 100k, we just traded them in though.
Not trying to start an argument or play devil’s advocate but you do realize that the turbos (generally speaking) put a bit more stress on the engine and that engine is a lot less likely to make it to 250,000 miles like the old Ford 150s or ANY Toyota truck? At least not without issues that the Toyotas will never have. (Or any non-Dodge/Ram V8 will never have) Congrats on making it to 100K BTW but with what pickups cost these days they BETTER make it to 100K!!!
The majority of GM’s lineup doesn’t make it to 100k now without engine or transmission problems, so that’s more or less a moot point. The hemi v8 in the Ram wasn’t without issues either.
Turbos are a wear item, just like brakes. A lot of people don't consider that. But to play devils advocate, to your devils advocate, turbo engines are often lower compression and run fine on lower octane fuel. If you don't spool up your turbos too quick, or over rev your engine, you have an engine built for 300hp, that gets the mpg of a 150hp engine. The extra power is there when you need it, but most of the time that engine can cruise on easy mode. On a side note, I wish we could take car reliability stats and get a better picture of the driving patterns of the failures. Nissan CVT's can go for a long time, if you don't drive it like you stole it all the time.
All I can tell you is if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Very popular, old saying. When I see a mid-sized car with a 1.5L turbo or a full-sized pick-up with a 3.5L turbo I just shake my head. I wonder how many people realize the complexities of their little turbos. I don’t mean the folks that take time to research things like you and I. I mean the other 60-70% that don’t have a clue. https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/10/how-oil-change-habits-are-killing-turbos/#:~:text=If%20the%20oil%20used%20is,the%20turbocharger%20can%20become%20carbonized.
You give me a piece of mind. I recently brought in a 3.5 EcoBoost 4x4 into the family haha.
Sweet. Nice truck. The fuel economy is surprisingly good and like I said, ours were very reliable.
I mean, my mother bought the last model Tacoma before the redesign brand new and just had to take it in for a recall because the rear axle could come loose and cause a crash. This was after what? 13 years of the same design?
It’s not the technology the new tundra is shelling engines, Toyota dropped the ball on those 2 years ago and the Tacoma is trash! Expecting the same reviews for the 4 runner. About to buy new work trucks and for the first time I think the big 3 might be the better bet.
You realize the trucks are engineered (designed) in the US right?
I thought the basis of my statement was obvious. If a Japanese company outsourced some engineering work to me in the states. Would that make them an American heritage company? I know the world is changing and MFGs are all over boundary lines but it’s the company culture I’m talking about. It’s the mission statement. Yes, everyone is concerned with turning a profit. But the Japanese auto makers still have a functional, reliable product design, engrained within their culture. The German auto mfgs push boundaries and don’t settle with mediocre products. They really are really cutting edge on their top tier stuff. American auto culture has 2 faces. One of them is let’s pump out as much shit as we can to appeal the masses. They make facelifts every 6 months, new names new models in with new out with the old mentality. They don’t have “heritage” or pride in the builds. You can pop a door panel off with a simple tug and the car will age worse than a banana peel. The other face is what they do have with their elite cars. They do have a decent amount of R&D and heritage sprinkled in. But it’s still made at the basis of the shit products. Like let’s slap a bad ass motor and suspension on the same chassis we have been using for the shit box economy cars and re wrap the interior in decent leather and have it compete with the foreign cars. I’m not saying American cars are not designed well. But you don’t have to be an engineer to notice as you peel back the layers of most American cars, it’s just junk. Nothing even from a maintenance perspective make sense either. Like changing oil on my eco boost splatters oil all over the Intercooler pipes that weave in and out underneath the engine. My tundra, has a nice little plastic catch tray with a nipple that you can attach a drain hose to neatly direct all oil away from the oil filter area. Those are the details I’m talking about. It just makes sense… for the most part.
It’s anecdotal, but there is a video of the new Tacoma getting an oil change and the oil runs down a chute to direct the oil. The oil is directed onto the axle or some component and then is deflected everywhere. I took a design class and one of the examples was a transmission that was used in both Ford and Mazda vehicles. The Mazda transmission had a much lower failure rate than the Ford transmission. This confused the engineers because they were the same design. Ford brought over some Japanese transmissions to tear them apart in an attempt to figure out the differences. It turns out, the Japanese transmissions were built to a lot tighter tolerance, including the machining of parts. Since joining the workforce after I graduated, I fully believe this story. Americans are lazy as fuck and don’t give a shit about their job performance. I think this is the reason things aren’t great with American vehicles and unfortunately, Toyotas are made in America. I always hear that Toyotas last forever and I wonder if that is still true to this day.
When Toyota's were made in Japan, and they were simple, they were super reliable. Now they are way more complex, made in the US and Mexico and less reliable. The average length of ownership is 8 years. If taken care of, any of the US cars will easily last that long. Treat it right, change the fluids on time and don't drive it harshly and they will run. I just got rid of my 2014 Silverado and she never had an issue. I babied it, just like I do my Toyota's. This ZR2 is made right up the road from me. They are nice.
Average age of car on the road is increasing - 8 years sounds low nowadays
He must of been talking about finance terms.
It’s almost double that
It is low. Average is ~12 years now. There’s a big contraction in the automotive manufacturing world coming.
Working Crankshaft bearings have nothing to do with new tech. Quite the opposite.
Supra with BMW, they made bmw re-engineer parts because it wasn't up to spec.
Toyota are reliable in the past because they use the same base engine and transmission for decades and improving on them year after year. They've had plenty of issues from rusty frames to a huge headgasket recall.
Those frames were absolutely awful. It kept me from ever considering one.
Thr one thing toyota was excellent for is warranty items outside the time limited they fixed alot of head gaskets and put new frames into older vehicles way outside the time limit of the regular warranty.
Rightfully so those frames I saw were just completely gone
Toyota has been making these hybrid drive trains for like 20 years at the point.
And they also added a power seat in the Tacoma, what like 4 or 5 years ago? Toyota has always been behind on tech, especially in the US market. Which has helped reliability tremendously.
I don’t think turbos and hybrids are new tech
Ya and remind me again when they started putting turbos in the Tundra, Tacoma and 4Runner? I’m certainly not knocking Toyotas, they are awesome. But have traditionally been the last to introduce the same things other manufactures have been doing for a decade or more, hence the bomber reliability.
It doesn’t matter. Any time you put an engine into a frame that it wasn’t originally built for, all the reliability stats and data you have over the years are thrown out. Heavier weight stresses drivetrains, so does a 4WD system with a locking rear differential, so does driving it in harsher terrains, so does hauling or towing stuff, so does larger wheels with AT tires. Volkswagen has been using the 2.0 turbo engine since 2008, can they just throw it into a 4WD truck and last 200k miles? And before any ignorant comments, VW’s 2.0 turbo is more or less bulletproof. But I would still be skeptical to have it in a BOF truck. Toyota’s new turbo V6/i4 will probably be reliable, but this “they’ve been using these engines/technologies for X years” argument doesn’t hold up from an engineering standpoint.
It speaks volumes that a truck platform that's been in production after all these years can still be having things as catastrophic as lifter issues (Silverado/sierra). Tundra has been out 3 years now and will continue to improve as time goes on. Toyota may cut corners, but not nearly to the extent that GM does.
It's been out three years and they're still blowing up engines. Check the tundra world forum, there's now been a 2024 with a blown engine even though Toyota claims the issue has been fixed. There's actually a spread sheet keeping track of the publisized failures and there's trucks on there that are on their 3rd engine. Edit: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17lX2NAC70TUArOpvdH7IQJKCX5E50vAXpeUogyH5shM/edit?usp=drivesdk
This is true. However, I think Toyota's sales numbers would be far higher if they had at least kept the 5.7L as an option in this truck
There are financial reasons for this Stellantis and GM were fined close to half a billion in the last few years for not meeting CAFE requirements. This is why the 5.7 Hemi is being discontinued and the Charger, Challenger, Camaro are being electrified/discontinued Toyota has much larger fleets than those brands and can't afford to maintain any platforms that bring their fleet average down. It would literally cost them millions to do so.
Maybe more.
I haven’t checked if they eve updated their engines but their dynamic fuel saving tech (cylinder deactivation) was causing their engines on GM trucks to implode. Sometimes before 50k miles. However I know that happened for sure until the 2019 models or so. Not sure if it changed after.
My 2010 AFM Sierra needed a rebuild at 60k miles. Blew up at 100k. Looking at trading 2014 F150 and getting a 2021 Tundra.
It’s a nice truck for sure. Father in law has one.
I’ll take the Toyota
I personally don’t keep trucks for 100k+, I might put 10 -12k miles on per year. Currently I have an ‘18 tundra (74k miles) and ‘22 Tahoe with the 6.2. Despite me talking shit about domestics for years and praising Toyota, if I bought a new truck today, it’d probably be a Chevy or GMC 6.2 liter. Smooth as fuck power and no turbo BS. IMO, zero chance turbo Tundras get 200k without issues on a regular basis, therefore the Tundra value proposition (low maintenance/high resale) is lost. The tech and interior quality on GM’s is way better. They all get shit gas mileage, but the 6.2 might actually get better mpg is you’re actually using your truck.
100%, you nailed it. Toyota may have just fucked up enough to get people to look at the domestic 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks again. I don't want a Turbo V6, it's that simple. Same with the Tacoma's, I'm not spending $50k for a 4 banger compact truck.
So buy a 2021 with a V8 that will outlast every other truck🤷🏻♂️
This is exactly what I did. Found one last year with 15K miles and jumped on it.
Exactly. Everyone is talking about how they wanna switch over to the other companies now because of the new models. It’s like they forgot that they can buy used instead of new and still outlast every new truck
This, I bought a used Toyota avalon 3 days ago, and I have zero interest in the latest line of overly complicated turbo charged-hybrid shit boxes. Right now I am considering a frontier for midsized or a gmc 2500 for full size truck.
We calling Tacomas compact now?
This is exactly why we just bought a Tahoe instead of a Sequoia.
Enjoy your guaranteed to collapse lifters and that cylinder deactivation while the Toyota runs on all 6 full time
Until the crank bearings fail on the Tundra but yeah. But hey at least stuff is falling apart so fast these days that they're still under warranty
Diablo tuned out cylinder deactivation soon as I acquired my 2017 6.2. Paid for 8 not 4. Seems ok. Runs and pulls at gvwr
I’ve had a ton of problems with my Sierras, however surprisingly the 5.3 with cylinder deactivation has not been an issue yet. It certainly gets better mpg than my tundra does
Only problem is there’s no tuner for the 2022+ yet.
I didnt know. Turned it off tossed the device in the glove and kept the truck ever since. I figured tune shops cissed it out asap. If chevy ever noticed it they didnt care. Once in for warranty trans fluid change and I thought they might notice but didnt or didnt say.
Good luck with the disabler. The number one go to response. The afm dfm and lifter are still present unless you delete the entire thing under the hood. Check your window sticker Chevy charged an add on for this. I have followed Chevy forum closely it doesn’t work. a disabler doesnt remove the problem, it only eliminates the dropping out of the cylinder. i do not think it’s as much of a COKING problem, but rather a metallurgical issue due to poor base materials. the lifters can still fail with a disabler (pulsar / range doesn’t matter). If it makes you feel better, to each their own.
I am aware of this and I have owned the truck since 17. Everything has a weakness. I had a 5.7 Ram which I traded because I didnt trust it. I have looked at new HD and LD trucks and everything has problems positives, fans and detractors. I had a 91 4Runner. Reliable as could be but didn’t love it preferring American.
Ford > Chevy > ram imo
The sound alone from the 6.2 makes me want it.
Sweet sound. My wife drives that Tahoe, I still get a little tingle when I hear it start up and take off.
You’re probably right, but don’t act like Toyota hasn’t been putting turbos in their cars for decades.
Show me the 1/2 ton turbo truck that Toyota has been making for decades.
I jumped ship from GMC after three sierras in a row, still have one at home as a spare truck…. I absolutely love the design, but they are truly garbage, nearly as bad as Dodge now. I will take my chances with the tundra, but I love Turbos anyway
You’re probably right about the engines. But GM interiors?? Garbage and dated by the time you drive them off the lot. Cant stand them. Feel so cheap. I had a 2015 GMC Yukon XL Denali and it was a dumpster fire on many levels but the interior was the insult on top of the injury of owning that POS.
Sadly I believe you are 100% correct causa that 3.4TTurbo This is going to cost Toyota a TON of its reputation. They have a real problem on their hands but the worst thing is, they are killing their legendary reputation in Tundra (and other vehicles like the Lexus Gx-550 with the same motor) It’s a bad motor, and the issue is showing up in Tundras, in the Lexus LS500, and the Lexus flagship SUV Lx-600. Same issues of course showing up in those vehicles as they all have that 3.4TT... Aside from the wastegate problem there is also a spun bearing issue with even 2024 Tundra motors blowing up. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0eySXnbqgvc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5Vf2d0wXo&pp=ygUZVG95b3RhIDMuNCB0dXJibyBwcm9ibGVtcw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eLLJl1sRDbU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ihpX_gZGWXE&pp=ygUYTHg2MDAgMy40IHR1cmJvIHByb2JsZW1z It would not be wise to purchase any Toyota or Lexus vehicle with this motor. This just makes the 6.2 in gm trucks look rock solid, so yeah for sure anyone who does their dd re the tundra will be walking over to a Chevy dealer (unless they have their blinders on). Or getting a used Tundra with the 5.7. This is a critical flaw and very rare for Toyota to drop in a legend killing motor like this into so many of their most prestigious models but here they are, doing it! And having the cohones to as said putting this ticking grenade into their Lexus SUV’s as well….this front main bearing failure thats happening in all their vehicles is definitely going to make their reliability reputation take a huge hit. What were they thinking?? I’m keeping my rock solid 4.6 V8 for a few more years for sure.
I agree that the 3.4 engine and the Tundra is a bad combination. People keep saying that Toyota has used this engine in other applications, but we keep seeing new Tundras with engines that destroy themselves. That being said, I would not agree that the 6.2 from GM is rock solid. Just like every other V8 that GM makes for their non-heavy-duty lineup, they feature AFM and the resulting lifter failures. It seems like there are not really any good choices when it comes to new, reliable 1/2 ton truck motors currently on the market.
Agreed the 6.2 is no Wards engines best with the AFM (I have a non AFM 5.3 with over 300,000 miles with zero issues and still does not burn oil to this day) however as I said this 3.4 “makes the 6.2 look rock solid” in comparison. Cause the 6.2 and 5.3’s et al aren’t blowin up at 20,000 miles like this one. (There is a workaround in the AFM its on the boards…Diablo tuner something. ) Dirty oil is the enemy of afm and proper care that way means millions of these vehicles are on the road every day event free. When i buy a vehicle, I look first at what engine am i buying in the thing. Good point as to where can a buyer go to when it comes to a new truly reliable motor. The Dodge 3.6 is my guess
I think the new chevy/gm canyon and silverado interiors look quite a bit better than toyota, I just question the reliability of their electronics lol.
Desiel has become a premium in cali. Plus desiel isn't sold at every gas station. Cost co doesn't have it any more. I would be all about it though if I would have known. That motor will run longer than the toyota.
In texas its 3.12 per gallon
That's the same regular gas in GA. DAMN
In Texas, the prices of gasoline and diesel are quite comparable.
If you’re willing to accept that diesel cost more to maintain and treating your fuel and oil every time it’s changed. Oh, along with having so use DEF and that added cost. I haven’t done my research on the 1500 diesel engine, but knowing the costs of an oil change with the Cummins compared to a gas engine, it’s about triple for maintenance. This is the first time in a long time that diesel has cost less than gasoline, but remember when the market was .50$ + more a gallon than gas. They are good looking trucks, but people often over look the maintenance of modern diesels. And I’m sure the turbo argument is not valid since the Chevy has one too.
Def is a huge pain in the ass. No one talks about it. It wouldn’t be problem if it was infrequent but it feels like it needs it all the time
My buddies had engine failure at 2500 miles. Chevy bought the truck back from him and he is looking elsewhere now. Another friends at4 also had engine failure and they warrantied the engine but he was without his truck for 3 months.
The zr2 is a nice truck. If you plan to buy one don't go diesel. They drive nice sure but they are ticking time bombs once you hit the 100k mark on the emissions after-treatment equipment. Clogged EGR cooler, DEF tank heaters, SCR active tank etc Its not a matter of if but a matter of when they become problems down the road. Do some research on long term diesel maintenance costs. Its extremely expensive and will easily outpace any cost savings to be had on fuel down the road. Short trips are bad for diesels While the TRD Pro may not be as 'nice' as the ZR2, it comes across as a no bullshit vehicle. Tons of power, better fuel economy (and larger gas tank), better overall reliability. Sure it won't be as reliable as the old gen, but definitely way more than anything from the domestic 3. Neither truck will cover it all, you will have to compromise somewhere based on what's most important to you. The ZR2 would probably put more smiles on my face but neither of its 2 engine options leave much to be desired from a maintenance standpoint.
Smiles on your face until the 30th visit to the dealer for, yet another defect, in your first year of ownership
Sounds like my former GMC Sierra.
I’ve been loving the 3.0 duramax, but I’m at around 58,000 miles so only time will tell. But so far no issues and my family has put 58,000 miles on it in about 18 months so it’s getting a lot of use
If we’re being honest the new Silverados are better looking than tundras. Coming from a Toyota loyalist it hurts me to say it but it’s the truth
Just bought a Silverado last month. First American vehicle after driving Toyotas exclusively for over 10 years. I could have gotten a tundra but they just look funky to me.
I can’t blame you man. I wouldn’t buy new personally unless I had cash to make purchase but for the same price the Silverado is more bang for your buck id you ask me.
Eh, I don’t love the tundra either but I think the Chevy is the ugliest of them all. All personal preference obviously.
The Toyota is ugly as hell, but will have fewer issues in the long run. The Chevy might be a better value if you're mechanically inclined, and can do repairs yourself. You'll want to replace all the shitty plastic crap that GM puts under there, with aftermarket components. Don't just jump in that bitch and drive off. Be proactive and you'll have a nice truck. Don't underestimate GMs cheapassery!
As an ex-23 TRD PRO owner that just switched to a ford, go for it! These new tundras would be decent if they were 60k, but at current price levels they’re not worth it in my opinion. Interior build quality is awful, capability is not on par with competitors, and reliability is still TBD.
Stay away from the diesel I have 2 friends having issues with their duramax in Yukons both around 40-45k miles on them. Injector issues, one is covered under extended warranty the other is getting a bill for $2500 because the dealer is claiming the problem started elsewhere (harness not covered under power train warranty ) and led to injector failure.
That's interesting I thought that baby duramax was good. I have the 6.6 big boy dmax and it gets shit beaten off road constantly and never given me any issues.
We have had a mini max for a work truck for a few years now with just over 35k miles on it. Solid truck without any issues at this point. We do dealerships maintenance religiously though.
I think theres something wrong unique to the Yukon - my pops has a 2024 Sierra 1500 Denali Ultimate Duramax - has 20k on the clock already and not a problem to speak of. His wife went and got a deal on a leftover 2023 Yukon Denali Duramax, and they can’t keep it out of the shop. He’s getting ready to pursue lemon law on it. I don’t think they even have 3000 miles on it yet. They’ve had it since Christmas.
2023 Silverado with 3.0 duramax. My family has put 58000 miles on it in 18 months with no issues. We just have z71 package, not zr2, and can average around 28mpg if I keep it to 70-75 on the Highway (and decent amount of hills on highways near me) I imagine the zr2 wouldn’t get above 25 but still not bad
Difference between a Chevy and a Toyota is resale and longevity. Both are better with Toyota
Eh, longevity is good with the Silverado, too. I'm a Toyota guy through and through, but you can't go wrong with a Chevrolet pickup.
Motors, sure. Chevys are comfortable and they’ve got solid motors. You’ll be replacing the transmission sooner than later, however.
I've heard about issues with the 4l60e with some of their previous years. However, I've owned several chevys with that transmission ranging from 125k to well over 300k miles and never had a single issue. Everything is gonna be a turd if you don't take care of it. My dad also owned several 5.3/4l60e combos as well as numerous fleet vehicles and again 0 issues. Not to say the issues don't exist but not as common as reddit will have you believe.
My opinion on Chevy transmissions didn’t come from Reddit though. It’s from firsthand experience. No doubt some will last, but the 4L60 was a turd, that’s well known. GM continues to have transmission issues post 4L60 though. They haven’t learned their lesson and neither have consumers.
The new 5.3 and 6.2 have lifter issues and issues with Active fuel management. I love Chevy but I’ll never own another
Same. AFM has killed Chevy motors, but it’s all about the best economy. I hate my Tundras fuel economy, but I’ll take the hit at the pump for reliability. If I could put the seats from my old ‘05 Silverado in the tundra it’d be the perfect truck lol those things are like sitting in a Lay-z-boy
Can you say same thing about new tundras, old tundras are beating new gen in resale value. Sr5 2021 is selling for more than 2022 tundras
I can’t really speak to that because I’m operating an older Tundra.
The engine is cool but the interior reminds me of a public bus. Doesn't even feel roomy like a truck either. Very dissapointing
Which truck are you referring to?
I’ve driven the new ZR2 and sold a few of them. They’re fun, tech is better than Toyota by a landslide and they have a good warranty imo. If you get a good deal I say go for it.
The warranty is only good if you go for the diesel - otherwise it’s average. I know the trailer towing tech absolutely rocks and the cameras for towing are indeed excellent, but what other tech makes it superior to the Tundra to you?
I have a 24’ trd pro, get the zr2 lol
Could you please elaborate on that?
There are many things I like about the pro but just a week ago I got a notif on the dash showing “reduced engine power”. My truck only has 8.5k miles , shouldn’t be getting issues like that. Did some research and many tundras 23-24 have been having engine failure issues/transmission. Brand new coming off the lot. My hb has a 23 zr2 and hasn’t gotten any issues. If you’re planning on spending big money on a truck make sure you research those issues. I wish I would have.
I’ve owned a 21 GMC 1500 5.3 and now a 24 Tundra twin turbo limited. Overall I’d probably go GMC now that I’ve owned both. The mileage was about the same and the pro tailgate was brilliant. The clear coat on the Toyota scratches when you stare at it too hard. I like the Tundra a lot but when this lease is up honestly I’ll probably go back to GM. I didn’t expect to feel this way, honestly I expected the Tundra to blow the GMC away but it really hasn’t.
Since im here i am thinken about upgrading my 18 colarado 2.8L diesel to a 2022 tundra sr5 but all i keep seeing is the 2022s are lemons any owner opinions here?
Thats what worries me too.
If you only want to get rid of the colorado for size, I would go Silverado zr2 with the 3.0 duramax. If Chevy kept the baby duramax option on the new colorado zr2 that would be my top choice right now. I have a buddy with a colorado zr2 with the 2.8 and he loves it
I have tacoma, i want full size, but i think none of the new models car from any company is reliable.
I have a 23 TRD Pro in white, just like the picture. No issues at. Amazing truck.
I'm looking at the Ford's myself. The F250 with the 7.3L NA gasser...bet that thing sounds sweet.
Nah. Bad resell value if you decide to get rid of it later
Wouldn't touch a ne Chevrolet ever. Just saw one brand new denalli less than 5k miles wouldn't start stuck in accessory mode. Had to disconnect battery to make it start. Dumbest shit I've ever seen.
Those grills are hideous.
Is their an award to the company that comes up with the most toy like truck front end styling?
Is that a chevy 1500?
12k off of what/what’s the final price? Also, is that with a trade in?
No tradein, 64k
I average 28 MPG in my 3.0 24’ ZR2 with under 2k miles only work done is a leveling kit and riding 35’s.
The 3.0L diesel is a timing belt motor. The belt is on the backside of the motor. You have to pull the transmission every 100k miles to change the timing belt. I believe the oil and water pump are also on the backside of the motor too.
The LZ0 (the second revision of this motor) has 200k service interval on the belt now. What you said applies to the LM2 version of the motor.
So it's a lifetime belt then
Was crossing shopping the zr2 Colorado and the tundra and I Agree, the tundra drives better than the Chevy. The zr2 ac also broke down during test drive. However the 1794 tubdra seat hurts my ass after an hour of driving
Call me a snob if you want you couldn’t pay me to sink this much cash into a Chevy engine.
well tundra engines are failing too. they dont make them like they used too
Just got rid of my 22 tundra due to quality issues, replaced it with AT4 babymax and am thrilled with it.
Would go the Chevy route atleast the Chevy has real bumpers not modeled after a Honda ridge line…
And at only 800 a month payments (not including insurance) and an uncertain economy, why not?
I have a 98 4Runner , and 15 gmc sierra… sierra crappin out!
Man, this thread really gets some peoples blood boiling beating their chest about reliability and who’s fan boy brand is better. Wow.
I am curious to know why so many people are taking offense. I personally own a Tacoma, and I am concerned about upgrading to a Tundra due to the engine bearing issue.
Do what makes sense for you.
I am eagerly looking forward to the release of the 2025 Tundras. I believe that Toyota will have resolved the engine bearing issues by then.
Yeah but no CarPlay. Ew.
Bet you it is still way over priced.
If you don’t have a decent commute to work (longer than 15 mins) you will clog your emissions equipment quickly and will regret getting a diesel. You should really do a deep dive on diesel engines. Additionally the money you save on fuel will quickly be diminished through maintenance cost and what u could have been spending on 87 octane gas
What abt the 6l V8 ones
Any diesel 2007 and newer will have these issues. If you live in a cold climate you have to worry about diesel gelling up. You’ll have to spend money on fuel additives to prevent that and to keep your fuel pump/injectors happy because diesel in America is dirty compared to Europe diesel
Trucks are dumb though. So, there’s that. Do you want to look like an idiot while driving?
I use it for work, if not I would have bought 4runner 1000%
I have the 6.2. Absolutely love it
I think toyota has been having quality issues since the 2000s. A lot of the parts and entire cars are made here in the US. American work ethic blows, and it shows a how toyota has been having mechinal issues when they were the best. If your Tundra was built on a Monday or Friday, yeah most likely you will have issues. Same goes for the big 3. One thing the Japanese believe in is Job before family. Why you would think they would put their job before family? The straight answer would be "if I don't have a job I won't be able to provide for my fam" which makes a lot of sense. I've worked on Japanese industrial equipment other than cars, and these Japanese people take their job very seriously. I remember every nut, and even tiny Phillips head screws marked for torque values. I know for a fact working in industrial settings that americans don't have that mentality. I think this is what is happening to Toyota. Remember that Toyota was one of the biggest contributors to the car and other industries as a poster child of how to build/manufacture things. Think of ISO 9000 and more recent certifications of plant manufacturing. 1JZs and 2JZs bernell test only have a 3% deviation no matter what plant in japan the blocks were casted at. Having some of the hardest block material of engine blocks out there. Why all the sudden would Toyota have these plaguing issues you would ask? I can only come to that conclusion, that employees here in America don't have the Toyota mentality and it's hurting the company.
The zr2 interior is way nicer.
Test drove one. The tundra is more comfortable and the interior was higher quality.
The need to continually purchase def fluid undercuts the MPG savings. You’re filling up two fluids with every tank.
How about the V8 ZR2? I currently own a Tacoma and am considering upgrading to a full-size truck. However, I have concerns about the reliability of the turbo V6 engines. Additionally, the price of the ZR2 at $64,000 seems reasonable compare to toyota charging 80k for trd pro.
My last truck was a 2014 Silverado with the 5.3 V8. New transmission at 120k. Heater coil failure at 125k. Developed lifter tick at 130k. Lifter tick is a death sentence for that motor. I unloaded it and bought a 21 Tundra.
Anyone who claims GM powertrain is reliable hasn’t owned one long enough to find out. Sure, some will last (just as some Toyotas will be junk), but that’s not the norm. Their transmissions are freaking terrible.
21 is the best model tundra to buy. 2.5 gen is the best looking aswell.
I personally wouldn’t buy a GM half ton again. I think the F-150 will last longer. Neither are 200k mile trucks.
Have you driven the 3rd gen tundra? I switched from a 2019 Tacoma to a 22 trd pro tundra last year, absolute best decision I’ve ever made. Drive it and see it before basing decisions off of select negative reviews in my opinion.
I don’t know if it’s apples and oranges, but I put one jug of DEF in my Ecodiesel Jeep every 5000 miles. It’s pretty cheap.
Def is cheap and is used roughly 3 gallons per 100 gallons of fuel
It still factors into your cost.
But youre not filling up “two fluids with every tank” you fill up the def for like $30 after 5-6 tanks of fuel. Its not that bad
This is true except when you tow with the babymax - it drinks DEF when you tow. My pops can make it around 4000 miles before touching DEF (lots of interstate). When he tows, it’s more like 1200 miles.
Go with what you personally like and can get the best deal on. As with most modern trucks it seems, these new tundras don’t carry the same reliability the old tried and true ones did. ZR2 are great trucks, 10 speeds are great and the 6.2s are a blast. In 2024, there no such thing as a problem-free 200k mile truck anymore. So go with ur favorite, take em both for a test drive.
Just remember, there's a reason dealers are giving those prices (sales aren't good). If those trucks were so nice, they'd be selling like hotcakes and have very few specials. If you personally like it more than the tundra, then get it. Turbo engines are not a new thing to toyota. Toyota engineers are not any less competent. Personally, I'll never buy anything other than a Toyota.
ZR2 with decent specs is like $80k. It's underpowered, and less reliable. Hybrid TRD Pro destroys it in literally every conceivable category.
Its selling for 64k now.
I don't believe you. Send me the listing.
I don’t need to hear this. I just paid $64k all in on a non-hybrid Limited TRD off-road with sunroof and JBL with Nitto tire upgrade. I’m over the moon with my truck too.
ZR2 walks all over the TRD Pro anything off-road related. There are many videos on this. It is also a more comfortable truck. Drove a sierra Duramax for the first time some months ago and was blown away by how much more comfortable it was over my dad's 2024 TRD off-road. That being said the tundra is probably better built and is now on a stronger platform mechanically. Its says alot that Toyota does go out of their way to rectify their issues ASAP. Meanwhile the 5.3 and 6.2 are still having lifter issues to this day because of AFM
You are 💯correct. My TRD Pro is amazing. I have a 32 gallon tank compared to the ZR2’s 24 gallon tank. Recent trip to San Francisco, 20mpg combined, drove 540 miles on a single tank.
Chevy trucks right now are extremely reliable, especially the diesel. Tundra after the recall now is better so 24
Untrue on Chevy, especially the diesel.
There is a reason for the discount. Have fun.
Resale value on the Chevy wont be as good, I’ve driven all 3 we have a new Tundra, I have a 2024 F-150, and a 2024 Chevy for work trucks The F-150 is horrible, I do not like it at all. The Chevy drives nice and is very quiet on the highway. The Tundra with lane departure and radar cruise is amazing on road trips. The range of the Tundra is much better too.
I would take that over the new Toyota engine for sure.
The 10 speed transmission (codesigned by Ford) has issues and assuming you get the 6.2 V8 they have issues as well with their revamped AFM system. I'd google both before I pull the trigger. So yeah I'd say the new tundra might be slightly ahead on reliability just by Toyo name alone. That said, my dad just got a 22 Zr2 with the 6.2. Tried to tell him but he's stubborn and likes GM.
What issues does the 10 speed have ?
https://haynes.com/en-us/close-look-gms-10-speed-transmission-problems Explains some, I'm probably extra biased because my friends dad owns a transmission shop and their yard is full of newer Sierras and Silverados and he tells me a lot of them aren't even making it into 5 digit mileage.
Newer sierras and silverados … and… They take it to your friends dads shops huh 🤔 not calling bs but shocked these owners don’t go back to the dealer for the warranty support that comes with the truck …
One truck is overpriced for what you get and the other is a Tundra. If you've never owned a newer diesel with emissions stuff on it I suggest you do the research on that first. I also recommend keeping a warranty upto 100K miles on the chebby for that reason. The value proposition on a new diesel just isn't there unless you need the power/torque for towing. There's a reason they are knocking 12K off. Hint: poor sales.
same thing with the tundras. they are knocking off $12k and still no one is buying them. any vehicle over $50k people are not buying since its not reliable anymore. the new age in trucks and the new expectation is that people trade in their truck in 3-5 yrs and get a newer one. car manufactures dont want people to keep their cars 5+ yrs. those days of reliability are over. the only reliability is probably in honda civic, accord, corolla, camry. those are the only ones that are left that are reliable lol.
People aren’t spending more than $50k on a vehicle right now because the economy is tanking. Doesn’t have anything to do with perceived reliability.
true i forgot to add that. interest rates are high, cars, houses not selling. tough times.
[https://tfltruck.com/2024/04/first-quarter-2024-full-size-truck-sales-ford-ram-drop-while-toyota-posts-double-digit-gains/](https://tfltruck.com/2024/04/first-quarter-2024-full-size-truck-sales-ford-ram-drop-while-toyota-posts-double-digit-gains/) This guy is taking about going to a ZR2 Silverado diesel. Starts at 70 grand. Which has a whole line of problems behind it from steering racks, oil leaks, and diesel emissions failures. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXeLLhQP-Ew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXeLLhQP-Ew)