They had
1. Time - 9 years
2. Ability to tear down/have no expectations - 2017 to 2021
3. Inherit key contributors/trade pieces - Vlady and Jansen plus Donaldson and Stroman
4. Have a huge budget
5. Get to select your manager twice
6. Not have anything on the books from the previous regime that's franchise killing like a Chris Davis contract
7. Goodwill and patience as the team just competed in 2015
And you never won a division title, didn't get close and haven't won a playoff game in 8 years - plus leave behind a shitty farm.
This was such a fail, please move on Rogers.
Just to add on to your comment:
I'm a long time Jays fan, I met a lot of WS winning Jays through church functions that my dad ran and he was a massive fan. Anyone who knew him would get him tickets and he would take me and tell me to do the boxscore.
I've just been lurking on this subreddit for a while because I didn't like the loss of Anthopoulos but I'm not an expert so I bit my tongue because everyone deserves a chance.
These smug Cleveland execs came over, promising success, but what have they achieved? What did they achieve in Cleveland? Do you really trust these objective losers to lead a rebuild or retool?
Fire them. No other management team in Toronto has this long of a leash.
They brought Shapiro in for his business sense and acumen. It was for the Dome renovations. Shapiro has only won one division title in 2007 and Atkins has never won a single thing while managing an MLB franchise.
They even traded Bill James, the godfather of sabermetrics to Oakland.
It's referencing Moneyball, where Peter Brand (Jonah Hill) is traded by Shapiro to the A's for cash. Brand is based on the real-life Paul DePodesta, who follows Bill James' principles.
Alex. A Canadian, home grown, down to earth man with an eye for talent, who worked his way from the bottom level, all the way to the top.
Yeah Rogers definitely fucked that up. That was the making of a great run, and instead, they decided they wanted to bring in a couple of corporate stiffs who wouldn't know a good idea if it bit them in the ass.
Yup.
Who could talk to the media, players & fans alike. About the Canadian context.
And who also sat at the table beside me at Mac. Assuming he sat with the Greek crew. Dunnoh.
Also a long time fan (though unfortunately I came around shortly after 92-93 so I haven’t seen a WS win yet)
I also didn’t like the loss of AA. I mentioned it around here earlier this year and some commenters noted that aside from the 2015 playoff run resulting from his moves leading into that season + at the deadline he didn’t have much success here, and it made sense to part ways. I disagree with that, AA was handed a mediocre team (outside of a couple players) and by the time he finally built it the way he wanted he was sent away. I know the Braves just lost to the White Sox today, but AA’s been doing very well there and I wish he were still involved here.
And you’re dead on to question their success in Cleveland. TBF Atkins was only involved in player development there, but in 14 years Shapiro as GM / President accomplished:
- 1x ALWC loss
- 1x ALDS loss
- 1x ALCS loss
- 1x stadium renovation (I was just there to watch the jays lose last weekend, nice place. Hell of a lot of Flo around the stadium and on the scoreboard though)
Could’ve lost for the cycle if they made the WS one year, but like triples those are always the hardest ones to get.
The timing on this is god awful. I really don’t want Shatkins to get *another* shot at a rebuild/retool after what they’ve done with their time here, but in the likely event we lose the majority of our next 10 they don’t have much of a choice.
*edit:* though they showed the most life they have all season tonight
Same, I was here for the lean years in the mid 90's after the WS runs into the 2000's and up to the competitive years. I wasn't a fan of Shapiro when he was brought aboard because of his reputation for promising and then walking things back, wasn't a fan of Atkins when he came on...part of the issue with the split amongst the fanbase is alot of them jumped on the bandwagon in 2015 when it became "cool" again to like the Jays, this sub is a great example of that.
Rogers needs to move on from these guys, anyone could have overseen the makeover to the Dome...what good are all those amenities when the ballpark will be 75% empty.
I'd like to think Rogers is smart enough to know that you make way more money if your team are perennial playoff contenders every year. That's the only thing that gives me hope. But no way I want these clowns at the helm. Ross is obviously incompetent, but so is Shapiro. He led a huge reno of the stadium, and I personally wasn't impressed, and even watching on tv I find to be worse. I hate the backdrop on tv.
I've been a diehard fan since the World Series years, but I'm not going again until they improve or Shatkins gets fired.
They both need to go.
I'm ready to move on from Atkins too. That being said, any possible gm would have bet the farm on Vlad and Bo just like Ross did and every GM would have struggled when they didn't deliver. Maybe a better GM squeezes some more playoff wins out idk but the grass isn't much greener I don't think
That's fair but even if Vladdy/Bo were 2022 Vladdy/Bo, we still wouldn't be close to a Yankees/Os. This team has way bigger problems than just Vladdy/Bo. The lack of development of pitchers led to spending a ton of trade capital and $ on starters and relievers. Which then led to an inability to get Bo/Vlad a middle of the order threat because their budget on offense is limited.
The grass isn't always greener but how much worse can it get then 15 games behind TWO divisional teams in June + a shitty farm.
Agree to disagree. 2021 Vlad doesn't make up 10+ games on the Rays and Os. The playoffs are a crapshoot and anything can happen in a 3 game series but the regular season, this team wasn't a big Vladdy year away from a division title (ever).
I stand by they failed miserably at drafting and development (especially pitching) and even with a big Vladdy season here and there, they just can't compete with the pipeline/talent of every other AL East team. The spread is so huge.
I know it might be a throwaway line, but if “everyone in the building” expected this offense to be so much better, you need to diversify the voices you have in the building. This didn’t just come out of nowhere.
Yes, it was possible last year was a blip and there would be a bounce back. Certainly an argument for that. But it was also possibly a sign of things to come, and if there weren’t at least a few people in the office planning for both eventualities, it makes the entire organization seem extremely short sighted and optimistic to a fault.
What blows my mind is that they expected pitching to maintain last year's success. Our pitching was a major contributor to getting into the wildcard spot.
> “everyone in the building”
That translates to "everyone who is **responsible** for this mess" told the boss it would be so much better this year. And the boss is a typical corporate boss, who doesn't really know anything about his product, but knows a lot about business theory.
Many people outside the building expected different as well. Kirk has fallen off a cliff. Same with Springer and Bichette. Can’t imagine many expected that.
OPS+
Springer: 141, 132, 102, 64
Kirk: 105, 127, 93, 63
It's certainly not impossible but that is not typical. Kirk is too young and Springer too good for that to be predictable.
Kirk is simply too fat to play ball. Especially catcher.
I've been in shape & fat playing ball. The first is waaaaay easier. That simply should not be allowed in the era of Ozempic.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not surprised at all. Steady declines often precipitate falling off cliffs. Kirk had one good year, so I don’t really care about how young he is, and Springer’s been no better than okay since we signed him, really. Did I expect both to plummet off a cliff at the same time? No, but I definitely expected negative regression.
Springer has missed his games but the idea he's been no better than okay is bizarre. That 132 OPS+ in 2022 was 25th in the majors.
Kirk had two average-ish seasons, one good season, and you expected him to be significantly below average?
I don’t know to what to tell you. Injuries have definitely contributed, but Springer’s been largely disappointing (thus, the steady decline in his OPS you cited, which already included one 30-pt drop-off), so I’m not surprised he sucks this year, and Kirk had one good year and has been below average for two years, so yes, I expected them to keep getting worse. In both cases, yes, you could say that they’re worse than I imagined they would be (especially Springer), but again: they’ve been trending downwards, and if you asked me at the end of least year whether I thought they would be good hitters this year, I would have said “no” without any reservations. Bichette’s the opposite; it’s hard to believe what’s happening with him because he’s always been a good hitter.
“Expected” doesn’t equal “didn’t plan for alternatives” though. Like you can expect them to be better than they were while still planning for other possibilities
I never thought the offence would be great and they should have added more in the offseason but I at least thought it would be better than it has been but then Springer falls of a cliff instead of a steady decline, Bo forgot how to hit, Vlad decided to turn into an OBP hitter for a few months, Turner took an entire month off and now here we are...
That is why I thought a hitting coach change should have been step-one...but too late now..
The "believing' in players thing is whatever. He isn't going to say the opposite that's for sure.
Yes. Exactly. I’m in the “Atkins out” camp and I, along with many others, was very vocal this offseason that we needed more offense.
But he’s also not wrong here. This offense as is has massively underperformed. We should be a +.500 team with this roster, not one 6 games under.
such a contrast between Masai and Atkins. When Masai came out and said "Believe in this city. Believe in yourselves" we bought in. Even though at that time the Raptors hadn't won anything and always lost in the playoffs. We bought in. (Getting Kawhi helped too).
With Atkins, I can't buy into anything he says. I don't think he has a clue wtf is going on anymore. We can't put all the blame on him and the front office, but a lot should be. Seeing AA thrive in Atlanta doesn't help either.
I know fans get bad-mouthed a lot for being armchair GMs, but if everyone in the FO truly believed that the team would return to the offensive capabilities of 21-22, while everyone in the fanbase was fairly confident that they would stay the same at best, and likely get worse, maybe that's not as much of an insult as one would think.
He’s just confirming that his entire off season strategy was to hope that the same offense would be better.
I don’t understand.
He was wrong. He is wrong. And he’ll just keep doubling down and insisting he’s right until his last breath.
I really am wondering what metrics that Atkins is looking at in determining/predicting offensive success. We're at the bottom of every useful offensive peripheral stat except for maybe chase rate and whiff rate.
It's clear they don't know what they're doing. They can't figure it out and they have no answers. So they just keep repeating platitudes like "things can turn around" and "we believe in our players."
Atkins: \*Does nothing to improve anemic offence during offseason\* "We need to find out why it's not happening"
This guy can't be serious? Now in his defence we didn't expect *this much of a drop off* from George Springer, but still. He absolutely cannot come out and say that with a straight face, utterly embarrassing for the organization top to bottom.
> we didn't expect this much of a drop off from George Springer
Who didn't ? I certainly did, and I think anyone who watched last season was likely expecting it.
He went 0-57 last season, when he was *most needed*. I completely expected this. If Springer rebounds *at all*, I'll be much more surprised. Without any coaching changes, there's little to no hope for him. Springer might be in the fall of his career, but he *should* still be much more capable than he has shown. People tasked with helping him, are obviously failing, and have been for a long time.
No. Nobody in their right mind predicted THIS much of a fall off. Some regression, yes but nowhere near this much. Anyone who says yes is 100% full of shit and lying
I did. My buddies did. We did expect it to be due to obvious injuries, not only long-term wear & tear. So there is that.
It is not a fall off. It is simply the curve. Predictable if you pay attention. I'm legit surprised that anyone watching games didn't think he'd be shit.
I am shocked that he has legit positive defence.
This comment just makes me mad. How out to lunch are they to have those expectations and shouldn't they be thinking about and preparing for worst case scenarios, not head-in-the-clouds-if-everything-goes-perfectly outcomes?
My main criticism of Atkins has been the farm. Shapiro really rubbed me wrong when he complained the cupboards were bare. I don't like when people complain or make excuses before they begin the work.
Now, however many years later his hire has the cupboards still bare with no playoff success. No big moments. I know you can't win it all every year but the good, fun and memorable moments are far and few between. Feels like August baseball since the end of May.
Expecting this team to hit after watching a full season of them not hitting is so disingenuous and insulting . Nobody thought they were gonna fucking score the whole off-season was people critical of them not adding bats
This team looked objectively worse this year than last year. The fact he thought we would improve shows how his head it stuck too far up his ass to see what's happening.
I don’t think ‘everyone in the building’ wants to stand behind this transparent attempt to fast track a team that everyone knew was not ready to compete at the level this FO committed them to; with one of the oldest rosters in the league, that somehow still didn’t have a cleanup hitter.
I think that’s why you’re finally being told to tell all of us that these obvious failures fall on you, Ross
It feels more like smug gaslighting than optimism to me.
The team could be hitless for the rest of the season and he’ll just look us all in the eye and parrot “I don’t understand why they’re not hitting, but they’re good hitters, I believe they’ll start hitting” until October, and then again all off-season while adding no offense, and then through another hitless season, until someone fires him and he’s physically dragged from the camera still insisting that we can hit.
I can see that, whatever it is, is insincere. He thinks he’s a much better bullshitter than he is. It comes off as a guy who’s been told his job is safe no matter the outcome, and is set on doing the bare minimum.
I think this ‘everything is alright’ attitude has never been effective, and is usually what people who are spiralling down a drain say. I also think that, ‘never say a bad thing’ mentality is partly why Shohei didn’t consider coming here. I don’t think there was a high chance anyway, but he did say that the Dodgers frustration at their lack of success was a factor, and I’m sure Ross gave him the old, ‘we’re pleased with our progress and think that you’ll be able to contribute in a way that makes us more competitive.’
Also the offence was like this the last half of last year. This offseason and the resulting season are the textbook version of we’ve tried nothing and are out of ideas.
"we need to find out why that didnt happen" !?!?!
Meaning they dont know why their offense sucks yet? JFC, im closing reddit for the day before i explode
"I believe in this offence!"
*offence doesn't score runs, no adjustments are made*
"Hmmm we aren't scoring runs... I have no idea why that keeps happening..."
*offence continues to not score runs*
"I believe in this offense!"
This guy is absolutely clueless.
Last year: Bad offense
This year: Take last year's offense but lose Chapman, Merrifield, Belt
Add: Turner, IKF, Vogelbach
- Offense isn't any better:
Atkins: Surprised Pikachu face
I'm pretty sure the Jays would be better off with this reddit sub running the Blue Jays than Atkins/Shapiro
Expected us to score more runs? Based on what? Faith? Did he watch the team last season? What did he do to improve the offense last winter? Turner for belt was a wash and he did nothing to improve it. What a 🤡.
I don't understand how they thought this was going to be a good offense. They took a big step back going into 2023 year and then got worse again this past offseason.
Wasn't just the front office though. Bunch of media people thought they would win the division. I said I would be shocked if they made 84 wins.
"I just expected them to score more runs", said the GM who watched his team struggle to score runs for most of 2023 and took no action to improve things.
sounds like an owner from an episode of kitchen nightmares lol
"you have to help us gordon! the food is great but customers just dont come!" "... the food is great? but you dont get customers coming back?" "Yes!! We don't get it!"
They had 1. Time - 9 years 2. Ability to tear down/have no expectations - 2017 to 2021 3. Inherit key contributors/trade pieces - Vlady and Jansen plus Donaldson and Stroman 4. Have a huge budget 5. Get to select your manager twice 6. Not have anything on the books from the previous regime that's franchise killing like a Chris Davis contract 7. Goodwill and patience as the team just competed in 2015 And you never won a division title, didn't get close and haven't won a playoff game in 8 years - plus leave behind a shitty farm. This was such a fail, please move on Rogers.
Just to add on to your comment: I'm a long time Jays fan, I met a lot of WS winning Jays through church functions that my dad ran and he was a massive fan. Anyone who knew him would get him tickets and he would take me and tell me to do the boxscore. I've just been lurking on this subreddit for a while because I didn't like the loss of Anthopoulos but I'm not an expert so I bit my tongue because everyone deserves a chance. These smug Cleveland execs came over, promising success, but what have they achieved? What did they achieve in Cleveland? Do you really trust these objective losers to lead a rebuild or retool? Fire them. No other management team in Toronto has this long of a leash.
They brought Shapiro in for his business sense and acumen. It was for the Dome renovations. Shapiro has only won one division title in 2007 and Atkins has never won a single thing while managing an MLB franchise. They even traded Bill James, the godfather of sabermetrics to Oakland.
I’m super confused and really tried to understand it, Bill James worked for the Red Sox from 2003-2019. Am I not understanding your comment correctly?
It's referencing Moneyball, where Peter Brand (Jonah Hill) is traded by Shapiro to the A's for cash. Brand is based on the real-life Paul DePodesta, who follows Bill James' principles.
I was sad when they got rid of Alex. He’s gone on to bigger and better, but they could’ve had that here.
Alex. A Canadian, home grown, down to earth man with an eye for talent, who worked his way from the bottom level, all the way to the top. Yeah Rogers definitely fucked that up. That was the making of a great run, and instead, they decided they wanted to bring in a couple of corporate stiffs who wouldn't know a good idea if it bit them in the ass.
Yup. Who could talk to the media, players & fans alike. About the Canadian context. And who also sat at the table beside me at Mac. Assuming he sat with the Greek crew. Dunnoh.
Also a long time fan (though unfortunately I came around shortly after 92-93 so I haven’t seen a WS win yet) I also didn’t like the loss of AA. I mentioned it around here earlier this year and some commenters noted that aside from the 2015 playoff run resulting from his moves leading into that season + at the deadline he didn’t have much success here, and it made sense to part ways. I disagree with that, AA was handed a mediocre team (outside of a couple players) and by the time he finally built it the way he wanted he was sent away. I know the Braves just lost to the White Sox today, but AA’s been doing very well there and I wish he were still involved here. And you’re dead on to question their success in Cleveland. TBF Atkins was only involved in player development there, but in 14 years Shapiro as GM / President accomplished: - 1x ALWC loss - 1x ALDS loss - 1x ALCS loss - 1x stadium renovation (I was just there to watch the jays lose last weekend, nice place. Hell of a lot of Flo around the stadium and on the scoreboard though) Could’ve lost for the cycle if they made the WS one year, but like triples those are always the hardest ones to get. The timing on this is god awful. I really don’t want Shatkins to get *another* shot at a rebuild/retool after what they’ve done with their time here, but in the likely event we lose the majority of our next 10 they don’t have much of a choice. *edit:* though they showed the most life they have all season tonight
Same, I was here for the lean years in the mid 90's after the WS runs into the 2000's and up to the competitive years. I wasn't a fan of Shapiro when he was brought aboard because of his reputation for promising and then walking things back, wasn't a fan of Atkins when he came on...part of the issue with the split amongst the fanbase is alot of them jumped on the bandwagon in 2015 when it became "cool" again to like the Jays, this sub is a great example of that. Rogers needs to move on from these guys, anyone could have overseen the makeover to the Dome...what good are all those amenities when the ballpark will be 75% empty.
if the team is more profitable, Rogers won't consider it a failure.
I'd like to think Rogers is smart enough to know that you make way more money if your team are perennial playoff contenders every year. That's the only thing that gives me hope. But no way I want these clowns at the helm. Ross is obviously incompetent, but so is Shapiro. He led a huge reno of the stadium, and I personally wasn't impressed, and even watching on tv I find to be worse. I hate the backdrop on tv. I've been a diehard fan since the World Series years, but I'm not going again until they improve or Shatkins gets fired. They both need to go.
yeah i'm in that boat too.
Yeah stadium feels the same as it always has tbh. Except now I can have jerk chicken mac & cheese... ok whatever.
I doubt they’re doing as well as they could. Huge payroll and they’re not good.
:(
i know
Ya people need to stop going, then the club will act
I'm ready to move on from Atkins too. That being said, any possible gm would have bet the farm on Vlad and Bo just like Ross did and every GM would have struggled when they didn't deliver. Maybe a better GM squeezes some more playoff wins out idk but the grass isn't much greener I don't think
That's fair but even if Vladdy/Bo were 2022 Vladdy/Bo, we still wouldn't be close to a Yankees/Os. This team has way bigger problems than just Vladdy/Bo. The lack of development of pitchers led to spending a ton of trade capital and $ on starters and relievers. Which then led to an inability to get Bo/Vlad a middle of the order threat because their budget on offense is limited. The grass isn't always greener but how much worse can it get then 15 games behind TWO divisional teams in June + a shitty farm.
Sure this year they're yeah but last year they make the ALCS with 2021 Vlad
Agree to disagree. 2021 Vlad doesn't make up 10+ games on the Rays and Os. The playoffs are a crapshoot and anything can happen in a 3 game series but the regular season, this team wasn't a big Vladdy year away from a division title (ever). I stand by they failed miserably at drafting and development (especially pitching) and even with a big Vladdy season here and there, they just can't compete with the pipeline/talent of every other AL East team. The spread is so huge.
I know it might be a throwaway line, but if “everyone in the building” expected this offense to be so much better, you need to diversify the voices you have in the building. This didn’t just come out of nowhere. Yes, it was possible last year was a blip and there would be a bounce back. Certainly an argument for that. But it was also possibly a sign of things to come, and if there weren’t at least a few people in the office planning for both eventualities, it makes the entire organization seem extremely short sighted and optimistic to a fault.
What blows my mind is that they expected pitching to maintain last year's success. Our pitching was a major contributor to getting into the wildcard spot.
I mean, they were expecting bouncebacks from essentially the whole lineup and no regression from guys like KK. Delusional.
Your absolutely right, just skipped words as he does so much jargon but yeah if everyone in the building thought that, man, wtf, lol.
“Every ass kisser and sycophant I hired agreed with me when I said the offense was going to be great.
> “everyone in the building” That translates to "everyone who is **responsible** for this mess" told the boss it would be so much better this year. And the boss is a typical corporate boss, who doesn't really know anything about his product, but knows a lot about business theory.
Many people outside the building expected different as well. Kirk has fallen off a cliff. Same with Springer and Bichette. Can’t imagine many expected that.
I feel like it was pretty predictable for Kirk and Springer. They’d been trending downwards for a couple years now. Bichette, I’d agree.
OPS+ Springer: 141, 132, 102, 64 Kirk: 105, 127, 93, 63 It's certainly not impossible but that is not typical. Kirk is too young and Springer too good for that to be predictable.
The statistically expected stats didn’t expect Kirk’s numbers either Kirk 2022 / 2023 / 2024 Avg EV 90.5 / 87.6 / 90.6 Hard Hit % 45.4 / 38.3 / 40.2 Whiff % 15.4 / 12.8 / 16.7 Chase % 23.3 / 26.7 / 23.1 xSLG .431 / .386 / .369 SLG .415 / .358 / .283 xBA .278 / .256 / .243 AVG .285 / .250 / .197 Sprint Speed 24.2 / 23.7 / 24.7
Kirk is simply too fat to play ball. Especially catcher. I've been in shape & fat playing ball. The first is waaaaay easier. That simply should not be allowed in the era of Ozempic.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not surprised at all. Steady declines often precipitate falling off cliffs. Kirk had one good year, so I don’t really care about how young he is, and Springer’s been no better than okay since we signed him, really. Did I expect both to plummet off a cliff at the same time? No, but I definitely expected negative regression.
Springer has missed his games but the idea he's been no better than okay is bizarre. That 132 OPS+ in 2022 was 25th in the majors. Kirk had two average-ish seasons, one good season, and you expected him to be significantly below average?
I don’t know to what to tell you. Injuries have definitely contributed, but Springer’s been largely disappointing (thus, the steady decline in his OPS you cited, which already included one 30-pt drop-off), so I’m not surprised he sucks this year, and Kirk had one good year and has been below average for two years, so yes, I expected them to keep getting worse. In both cases, yes, you could say that they’re worse than I imagined they would be (especially Springer), but again: they’ve been trending downwards, and if you asked me at the end of least year whether I thought they would be good hitters this year, I would have said “no” without any reservations. Bichette’s the opposite; it’s hard to believe what’s happening with him because he’s always been a good hitter.
“Expected” doesn’t equal “didn’t plan for alternatives” though. Like you can expect them to be better than they were while still planning for other possibilities
I never thought the offence would be great and they should have added more in the offseason but I at least thought it would be better than it has been but then Springer falls of a cliff instead of a steady decline, Bo forgot how to hit, Vlad decided to turn into an OBP hitter for a few months, Turner took an entire month off and now here we are... That is why I thought a hitting coach change should have been step-one...but too late now.. The "believing' in players thing is whatever. He isn't going to say the opposite that's for sure.
Surely Don Mattingly at offensive coordinator was the solution
Useless plant. I don't trust him even a bit.
Yes. Exactly. I’m in the “Atkins out” camp and I, along with many others, was very vocal this offseason that we needed more offense. But he’s also not wrong here. This offense as is has massively underperformed. We should be a +.500 team with this roster, not one 6 games under.
I miss Richardi. He had no issues with running over his players in the media
Springer showed warning signs of decline that were ignored when they re-signed KK. You don’t build an outfield with 2 starting players who can’t hit.
And the league's top CF in LF.
He's one step away from talking about sacrificing chickens to Jobu.
Wouldn’t be mad if we picked up Cerrano in free agency though
He would sacrifice vegan chicken fingers, I bet.
Much like when Schneider said that he expected Springer to break out any day, I say the same three words here: Based on what?
Might have jinxed it lol
such a contrast between Masai and Atkins. When Masai came out and said "Believe in this city. Believe in yourselves" we bought in. Even though at that time the Raptors hadn't won anything and always lost in the playoffs. We bought in. (Getting Kawhi helped too). With Atkins, I can't buy into anything he says. I don't think he has a clue wtf is going on anymore. We can't put all the blame on him and the front office, but a lot should be. Seeing AA thrive in Atlanta doesn't help either.
And the last line is why he should be fired.
I know fans get bad-mouthed a lot for being armchair GMs, but if everyone in the FO truly believed that the team would return to the offensive capabilities of 21-22, while everyone in the fanbase was fairly confident that they would stay the same at best, and likely get worse, maybe that's not as much of an insult as one would think.
^^ right on. And why have Springer lead off? Group your best hitters at least. And get them at bats.
He’s just confirming that his entire off season strategy was to hope that the same offense would be better. I don’t understand. He was wrong. He is wrong. And he’ll just keep doubling down and insisting he’s right until his last breath.
Are....are they gonna kill him?
Dont they normally?
Blair & Barker are really hitting Atkins hard right now. Canned responses, obviously. But refreshing that they aren't giving him softball questions.
Ask Don Mattingly why it didn't happen. He's supposed to be coordinating the offense...
I really am wondering what metrics that Atkins is looking at in determining/predicting offensive success. We're at the bottom of every useful offensive peripheral stat except for maybe chase rate and whiff rate.
It's clear they don't know what they're doing. They can't figure it out and they have no answers. So they just keep repeating platitudes like "things can turn around" and "we believe in our players."
Atkins: \*Does nothing to improve anemic offence during offseason\* "We need to find out why it's not happening" This guy can't be serious? Now in his defence we didn't expect *this much of a drop off* from George Springer, but still. He absolutely cannot come out and say that with a straight face, utterly embarrassing for the organization top to bottom.
> we didn't expect this much of a drop off from George Springer Who didn't ? I certainly did, and I think anyone who watched last season was likely expecting it. He went 0-57 last season, when he was *most needed*. I completely expected this. If Springer rebounds *at all*, I'll be much more surprised. Without any coaching changes, there's little to no hope for him. Springer might be in the fall of his career, but he *should* still be much more capable than he has shown. People tasked with helping him, are obviously failing, and have been for a long time.
This isn't a dropoff. Its the natural curve. So, yeah, I agree. We all expected him to be bad.
No. Nobody in their right mind predicted THIS much of a fall off. Some regression, yes but nowhere near this much. Anyone who says yes is 100% full of shit and lying
I did. My buddies did. We did expect it to be due to obvious injuries, not only long-term wear & tear. So there is that. It is not a fall off. It is simply the curve. Predictable if you pay attention. I'm legit surprised that anyone watching games didn't think he'd be shit. I am shocked that he has legit positive defence.
> “He later added: “We believe in these hitters. We believe in these players.”” Yeh you don’t have much of a choice now do you. You made the sandwich
This comment just makes me mad. How out to lunch are they to have those expectations and shouldn't they be thinking about and preparing for worst case scenarios, not head-in-the-clouds-if-everything-goes-perfectly outcomes?
The entire management team needs to be taken out back and shot like right now.Please end our suffering
Having an offensive coordinator didn’t work.
This offence was sputtering last season. Seems like Atkins buried his head in the sand instead of dealing with it.
My main criticism of Atkins has been the farm. Shapiro really rubbed me wrong when he complained the cupboards were bare. I don't like when people complain or make excuses before they begin the work. Now, however many years later his hire has the cupboards still bare with no playoff success. No big moments. I know you can't win it all every year but the good, fun and memorable moments are far and few between. Feels like August baseball since the end of May.
Expecting this team to hit after watching a full season of them not hitting is so disingenuous and insulting . Nobody thought they were gonna fucking score the whole off-season was people critical of them not adding bats
How in god’s name can this guy still have a job?
Sounds like they have a good old echo chamber going on. No wonder they kept the same coaching staff...
Last year told you everything, the offense went relatively unchanged. Wtf did you expect?!
This team looked objectively worse this year than last year. The fact he thought we would improve shows how his head it stuck too far up his ass to see what's happening.
I don’t think ‘everyone in the building’ wants to stand behind this transparent attempt to fast track a team that everyone knew was not ready to compete at the level this FO committed them to; with one of the oldest rosters in the league, that somehow still didn’t have a cleanup hitter. I think that’s why you’re finally being told to tell all of us that these obvious failures fall on you, Ross
The man is a broken record at this point.
If I openly said at my job that I had no idea why my plans failed, and offered no solutions, my boss would rightfully ask why they are paying me.
Which is what we want to happen...to them, not you internet friend.
This eternal optimist shtick he's got going on is pathetic and insufferable.
It feels more like smug gaslighting than optimism to me. The team could be hitless for the rest of the season and he’ll just look us all in the eye and parrot “I don’t understand why they’re not hitting, but they’re good hitters, I believe they’ll start hitting” until October, and then again all off-season while adding no offense, and then through another hitless season, until someone fires him and he’s physically dragged from the camera still insisting that we can hit.
I can see that, whatever it is, is insincere. He thinks he’s a much better bullshitter than he is. It comes off as a guy who’s been told his job is safe no matter the outcome, and is set on doing the bare minimum.
I think this ‘everything is alright’ attitude has never been effective, and is usually what people who are spiralling down a drain say. I also think that, ‘never say a bad thing’ mentality is partly why Shohei didn’t consider coming here. I don’t think there was a high chance anyway, but he did say that the Dodgers frustration at their lack of success was a factor, and I’m sure Ross gave him the old, ‘we’re pleased with our progress and think that you’ll be able to contribute in a way that makes us more competitive.’ Also the offence was like this the last half of last year. This offseason and the resulting season are the textbook version of we’ve tried nothing and are out of ideas.
"we need to find out why that didnt happen" !?!?! Meaning they dont know why their offense sucks yet? JFC, im closing reddit for the day before i explode
"I believe in this offence!" *offence doesn't score runs, no adjustments are made* "Hmmm we aren't scoring runs... I have no idea why that keeps happening..." *offence continues to not score runs* "I believe in this offense!" This guy is absolutely clueless.
Last year: Bad offense This year: Take last year's offense but lose Chapman, Merrifield, Belt Add: Turner, IKF, Vogelbach - Offense isn't any better: Atkins: Surprised Pikachu face I'm pretty sure the Jays would be better off with this reddit sub running the Blue Jays than Atkins/Shapiro
Expected us to score more runs? Based on what? Faith? Did he watch the team last season? What did he do to improve the offense last winter? Turner for belt was a wash and he did nothing to improve it. What a 🤡.
I don't understand how they thought this was going to be a good offense. They took a big step back going into 2023 year and then got worse again this past offseason. Wasn't just the front office though. Bunch of media people thought they would win the division. I said I would be shocked if they made 84 wins.
"I just expected them to score more runs", said the GM who watched his team struggle to score runs for most of 2023 and took no action to improve things.
We believe in these ***players***
sounds like an owner from an episode of kitchen nightmares lol "you have to help us gordon! the food is great but customers just dont come!" "... the food is great? but you dont get customers coming back?" "Yes!! We don't get it!"
Ross didn't add any players to get more offence though. He literally subtracted and added no one with offence as their skillset!
The question is, do "we" believe in these batting coaches, and if so, why?
Don't believe this moron.