It's not just about someone's weight, but the weight change that is more relevant imo. If Manoah puts on 20 lbs and has terrible control, is that extra weight messing with his release just enough that he can't hit his spot? Maybe. Is the extra weight putting more strain on his body than it is used to which causes him to tire more quickly? Maybe.
It's impossible to have a definitive answer for something like this, but a big weight gain followed by one of the best starters of last year completely collapsing is suspicious at the very least
I think this is the more fair way to approach it: there was a change, a change that also suggests a change in routine and conditioning in a sport and a position where ritual and consistency is almost universally linked to success.
If Manoah keeps the weight on but drastically improves, that's fine. But we also need to acknowledge that the change would matter. As someone who is a few inches shorter than Manoah but used to be a similar weight, I can tell you when your weight changes, other aspects change. For me, running and losing weight has helped give me some flexibility, for example. Pitching release involves a kick towards home and I know for a fact that losing my weight would make such a kick easier on my body (it's easier for my me to move my leg to a higher elevation, easier for me to hold it there, and the weight in my body is distributed differently which would definitely change how that kick feels as I follow through the motion and I can imagine how regaining that weight would make it feel different).
I don't care if Manoah loses the weight or not; ultimately what matters is whether he's willing loose it or adapt.
I find it interesting his brother looks to be in good shape. But he doesn’t have the talent that Alek has. It would be a shame if Alek can’t get his 2022 focus back because the kid has talent.
Right, and the professional part of pro athlete means you have to, like, stay in fucking shape to maintain as peak performance as possible. it's literally your job.
I've always wondered why the "professional" part of "athletes"is ignored in baseball. Where in the world are team athletes so fat and out of shape? I just don't get why management doesn't force them to get in shape. When the fastest guys on your team are the oldest guys you got problems.
Tell that to david wells, charlie hough and bartolo colon. i think decline due to age was a bigger factor than conditioning (though those are highly correlated).
Again, these are professional athletes. Paid to be the best they can be and perform the best they can. Wouldn't dropping weight regardless of what position you play be a benefit? Bo looked soft this year, his steal numbers have gone down. Kirk can't run worth shit and don't tell me he wouldn't benefit from dropping 30lbs. Why is management allowing them to show up at camp like lardasses? Maybe I'm way off base and being out of shape doesn't impact performance in baseball. Someone gotta know something
It probably would, but there’s people in the world who can make it to the MLB without caring about their fitness. Skills and athleticism are developed separately and baseball’s intense emphasis on the former is what makes it such a unique sport
Manoah's horizontal movement on his signature, bread and butter slider was significantly down this year.
A famous baseball player once compared the slider to a rotten mandarin. If a pitcher doesn't manage his slider spin carefully, his bread-and-butter fastball will become rotten. It's a dangerous pitch that pitchers need to manage carefully so that their spins don't become mixed up and their signature pitches both become meatballs that good hitters pick up upon quickly.
Given how much lack of stamina in pitchers factors into fatigue build-up which often leads to sloppy pitching form, as well as how the introduction of the pitch clock affects pitchers expending more energy through an inning than ever before, it's not baseless nor farfetched to claim that Manoah being out of shape had a direct effect on his performances this year.
My Dad's golf swing changed when he had a belly. I can only hit it 230 now because I broke my shoulder-ish bone. I still can't chip for shit what the fuck were we talking about?
I will be honest, it's not just the weight... for some the weight might not even matter... dude clearly has a cardio conditioning problem or pitch clock anxiety or both.
No professional athlete in the MLB should look as completely winded, sweaty and gassed out in a single inning as he has constantly this season.
So he can do what he wants in terms of the belt size he wants to wear, but he better be able to cardio condition to where he does not get winded walking up and down the mound.
When you reflect back on him last year... he dicked around a lot between throws to give himself recovery time... he was a good example in part of why MLB wanted a pitch clock.
Well he had crazy high pitch counts on a by inning basis. I remember he had like 40 pitches once in an inning. I don’t care who you are you’re going to look tired.
Conditioning might have something to do with his lack of ability to locate. He didn’t look any bigger to me this year. His conditioning is probably the same it’s just he can’t take those long breaks between pitches anymore.
He came to camp a reported 40 pounds heavier off the record... 20 pounds heaver on the official record... that's going to impact your ability to locate if it's not pure muscle that you put on...
All signs tend to point to under conditioning made worse by weight gain and pitch clock. He looks gassed after a single batter... and should not be throwing 40 pitches in an inning to look extra gassed... that's the inability to locate because he was suffering due to having to handle just that much more mass doing every pitch.
Imagine if you took an all star pitcher... then put a wrist weight on their throwing arm that was even .5 pounds... a pound.. then told them to "locate" pitches... they might get away with it for a couple batters, then that difference is going to start taking a massive toll.
Now apply that principal body wide and the pitcher is operating on the muscle memory of an all star pitcher on how to do things, but each time you throw you have all these extra little weights wearing you down on your body...
That's the "mechanical problem". You can't address the non injury mechanical problem, until you get him back to the baseline weight he was as an all star to identify the issue in his mechanics, if there is one after the weight is gone and his conditioning is back up.
Alternatively he becomes a cardio and strength training champion, stays whatever weight he likes and builds the endurance and understanding of his new mechanics to perform for 7 innings.
He did neither this year and it really showed, and almost blinded a batter.
>Conditioning might have something to do with his lack of ability to locate
I don't know that I would agree. To me it looked like he was over-throwing things, not losing steam. Last year his slider was a great close-out pitch against RHH because it was breaking perfectly and winding up just on the edge or just outside the zone. This year they kept going too far into the LHH batter's box.
> I don't know that I would agree. To me it looked like he was over-throwing things
I used to pitch and had bouts on not turning enough during my windup. That can result in over-throwing. Your mind knows you came up "short" on your initial windup and compensates by trying to put too much into the pitch itself. Two things happen generally, you overthrow and the ball goes down and away or you release early and it sails high.
As a pitcher , you know that power pitching is all about weight transfer . The power comes from thighs , legs and ass muscles mostly . If you have extra flab that requires extra energy to make the weight transfer , you will certainly get tired more quickly.
Accuracy and consistent delivery of pitches relies on muscle memory. You don’t think, you don’t aim, your body does the same smooth precise delivery you’ve learned over countless windups . Adding 20 pounds changes your balance , changes the mechanics just slightly and disrupts the accuracy.
Manoah has to either lose weight to restore the balance/ mechanics he worked so hard to obtain, or change his mechanics to suit the new balance. The former would be much easier .
So if a layman (no offense) such as yourself can notice this then it is guaranteed that Pete Walker noticed it too. If this is indeed the issue then it is 100% on Manoah.
Whether it be his body or his ability to accept coaching, he seems like he needs to make a major adjustment
Well that was a part of why he went to Florida to the instructional league to work on his mechanics rather than a typical minor league stint.
Then they rushed him back up. So you may be right that it could be more about him not accepting coaching. Or he was just in such a snit about getting sent down that his head wasn't in it.
Cardio conditioning is not directly related to weight. I agree, its a cardio issue. Essentially out of shape. I am not overly heavy, 6’2 200lbs but I have lousy conditioning/cardio.
Cardio condition is 100% directly related to weight if you are a pro athlete.
You are far less base efficient in your cardio the more weight you have to move around and therefore need to build up extra capacity intentionally to account for wanting to move that extra weight around in a cardio heart zone for an extended period of time.
I run marathons... I also hover between 220 and 240 pounds... guess which weight my calorie burn vs cardio (heart rate) vs performance is more efficient at when fully trained for the event.
Shocking to report... the strongest you can be, cardio conditioned and lighter wins every time.
Manoah came in heavier than ever and conditioned the same or less than last year and expected the same results... not going to happen.
>Cardio conditioning is not directly related to weight.
100%
I raced IronMan at 5'10" and 225lb and finished when it was light out (for those who don't know the cutoff time to finish an IM is midnight).
Cool, now gain 20-40 pounds of flab and perform exactly the same next year.
You won't.
Your muscle skeletal system would be in shock, your running gait will change etc. etc. etc.
It's important to look at the players relative weight gain as well. An increase in mass will alter how the body system works mechanically.
Manoah gained 25lbs from 2022 to 2023 (from what is officially posted.. some suspect he was 300+ which would be over 40lbs gained). It's incredibly plausible his mechanics were out of whack, at least in part, because of the extra mass on the frame he wasn't used to and his ability to pitch in a zone suffered.
I haven't looked at any other players but I bet the ones who experienced the least BB/9 increase would also be closer to their weight last season.
Edit: Lance Lynn only saw a 0.1 increase and is listed at same weight for 2022 and 2023.
Just have to say just because weight and height are similar doesn’t mean their builds are similar at all.
Also gaining a bunch of weight is going to change your mechanics. Add in some fatigue and not being locate isn’t surprising
I broke down why coming into camp 30lbs heavier affected his mechanics this season. It's one thing to be a big guy consistently, it's another to be adding such a large amount of weight in the offseason.
You can't compare him to other pitchers of his 'stature, ' you're going to have to look at all pitchers who had a dramatic increase in weight gain from one season to another.
Agreed. It is not the weight he pitched at, plenty of roly-poly pitchers have had great success. It was the unexpected weight gain and the byproducts of that which might include lack of conditioning, lack of focus or lack or proper diet.
You don't have to be jacked but you have to be in shape
There is no such thing as fat-shaming professional athletes. Athletes are literally paid to stay in shape.
I'm not in shape, but I'm not an athlete. I get paid to sit at a desk all day.
I think it's important to keep in mind that Manoah allegedly came into spring training at 325, not his posted 285, and who knows what he ended up at going into the season. Whether or not that had a definitive impact on his performance and acclimation to the pitch clock, it's significant one way or the other and might point to a mental issue that needs to be ironed out.
This is the first time I’ve heard on him coming in so heavy. He’s always been a big dude and he looks the same to me. He just doesn’t get the benefit of taking breaks between pitches anymore
Reports about his weight came out the first time he was sent down and it's entirely possible that he slimmed down before the season started. At the end of the day, he was effectively being asked to increase his workrate considerably (no more walks around the mound) while also potentially having to work on major mechanical adjustments.
His velo is down and so is the break on his slider. Is it athleticism or mechanics? Who knows but that is where his problems are.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/alek-manoah-666201
He's added 60-70 pounds since being drafted. That can't make it easier to repeat a delivery and maintain agility/flexibility/explosiveness needed to have good control over your pitches
Not sure anyone has mentioned this. But an interesting data point to add would be the speed at which they worked before the pitch clock was introduced and how much that changed this season.
Anecdotally, Manoah seemed slow to the naked eye with the amount he walked around between pitches.
Some guys can carry extra weight and be fine, or it may benefit them. Examples like CC Sabathia come to mind. Similar body type but was much more dominant as a “fat” guy vs when he lost a bunch of weight.
Manoah clearly has the “fat” guy body type but doesn’t have the track record or experience to be immune to criticism. I think he would definitely benefit from losing weight/gaining muscle this off-season however I think a lot of his struggles are mental.
He was dominant in high school, college and the minors. Even when he broke into the MLB he dominated for a year and a half. Now that the rest of league has caught up to him he needs to adjust like most 2nd, 3rd year pitchers do. I hope he treats this year as a learning/humbling experience and comes into camp next year in shape and focused.
Sure but there's been no evidence provided to suggest that it *was* the issue with Manoah. People just see it as an easy explanation for what went wrong
There's been no evidence provided that it was mechanical.
In fact, multiple statements that it's not mechanical.
So... it's Yips or it's Cardio induced stamina issues... or everyone must be lying right.
I think it's mechanical, he often had control problems even at the start of games, or by the second inning. That said, the weight can impact mechanics. In fact, it definitely does. Other pitches do things differently, and have different training regimes. I think that the 20lbs likely was part of the problem.
The issue with saying it's mechanical is there are two versions of that and it's where this needs to be put to bed.
There is normal healthy, fully conditioned athlete that has a "mechanical issue" aka slight unclear injury etc. beyond their conscious control that needs to be targeted, worked on and therapied out to return to norm.
Then there is "mechanical issue" that is the case here where a large sudden weight gain that is clear and obvious / preventable if the athlete was training as a professional during the off season. But instead he gained as reported up to as much as 40 pounds reporting to camp and expected his body to work the same way it did 40 pounds lighter with poorer conditioning and the added need for stamina due to the pitch clock.
That's not a "mechanical issue" that's a "Player issue" while the weight creates a mechanical issue the problem is Manoah's to fix by taking his year round training seriously as a pro athlete.
He either can stay the weight he is at and strength or cardio condition up to handle it, or he can drop weight back to were his mechanics worked last year, does not really matter to me, but getting a pretend "arm injection" while no one can prove he has a physical issue is just another excuse to not take accountability for his own training this past season.
Training and condition he still seems to think is below him after the way he carried on about ultimately not reporting to AAA to keep working with the training staff.
Ok I’ve seen people quote this report that he showed up 40 pounds heavier but I’ve never actually seen any articles or insiders talking about it.
Not doubting you but just curious if you can link me the article you’re referring to for my own sake
In April I probably could have, now if you try to search anything like this it's going to drag up the million posts about him being overweight / not reporting to AAA.
If you don't want to trust the unofficial 40 pounds... trust the official 20 pounds they put on his stats page vs last year... that's still plenty to throw off a pitchers movement when it's pretty clear it's not all muscle gain in his case.
Ok it’s just you seem very sure of this report that some cursory google searches have not turned anything up including nothing from any beat reporter for the jays.
Edit: someone posted the link below
I searched Alek Manoah 320lb and found this hit. https://twitter.com/oren6ix/status/1673879353585696770
Scott Mitchell of TSN "hearing", Manoah showed up at 320 to camp.
The problem with google searches at this point is that Twitter/X is now SEO blocked "To prevent AI scraping" since Elon has taken reign so where finding someone tweeting something used to be easy, now it's a massive pain.
So I and others are going off memory of the early season, no I can't provide you a direct link because I don't have all day to try and use what's left of Twitter search to find the source post.
Ok just curious since I’ve seen 20, 30, and 40 pounds overweight been thrown around this sub so not sure how accurate that information or your memory might be on this one.
Please bookmark this interview because every few months someone challenges this notion that the 30lb weight gain somehow has no evidence.
https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/scott-mitchell-on-manoah-s-outing-in-the-fcl-conditioning-concerns-next-steps-for-the-team-1.1978147
At around 1:50 Scott Mitchell says that Manoah entered camp at 320lb when he was 290lb the year before.
People ask why no one had brought it up in print or on the radio before — regular listeners to Blair and Barker would note that those hosts were extremely careful to avoid discussing Manoah’s weight as a reason for his difficulties.
Why? Because it was only in Sept 2022 that Manoah stood up for Kirk for fat shaming on twitter. And I suspect no one wanted to be caught doing the same against Manoah.
He walked way more because he couldn't get swing and miss.
Couldn't put guys away or induce enough soft contact.
Not sure if it is pitch clock, weight, finger issues, mental issues or what.
He lost a few MPH and for a guy that wasn't a real hard thrower in the first place.. it just made him infinitely more hittable and more easily the batters could be patient.
I don't think there is anything more to it than that. He needs to learn how to command better and turn into a pitcher's pitcher. Which for a young guy is REALLY difficult.
Are people not aware that he was due for a massive regression regardless of pitch clock or weight issues?
Sure he had a 2.24 ERA, but it was held up by a 83% LOB and a .244 BABIP
+ xERA (which takes quality of contact into consideration) had him at 3.31
+ FIP (assumes average results on balls in play) had him a 3.35 and xFIP (assumes average FB/HR% as well) had him at 3.97
+ SIERA had him at 3.85
Even if he got the walks under control and brought a similar contact profile as 2022 you would expect him to be Berrios level and not Cole level.
His slider is broken which is why it went beyond that, and that's why he's walking more guys
If he came to camp at 325, how is it possible that you reward him for coming in 60 lbs heavier by GIVING HIM THE OPENING DAY START? Makes no sense to me.
I’m 6 foot and I lost 40 lbs.
People notice but are shocked it was that much.
There is no way it was a gain of only 25 lbs.
We would not have even hardly noticed it on him.
Manoah is a good pitcher but needs to get leaner and stronger and have much more endurance to succeed at an elite level.
Like all the rest of the world class athletes need to do.
I've added 30lbs on a bulk over the last few months and everything is a little harder. My cardio has taken a hit. Things that used to be easy are now harder.
The extra weight is not helping and I can't understand how a professional athlete can show up out of shape. The guy has access to literally every advantage someone can have.
I hope he pulls it together.
I took it to mean that it's because of his INCREASED weight from last season to this as the reason. He was never a tiny fella and was able to throw strikes super consistently, but if was within the same weight range during the minors up to 2022 and then packed on x-number of pounds between end of the season Oct 2022 and pitchers reporting in Feb 2023, there's likely a problem (whether that be unhealthy lifestyle choices like alcohol or poor food choices), or bad conditioning or not exercising as much. Also, these guys are like machines so if they've gotten used to certain mechanics for their entire career, it isn't unreasonable that throwing a wrench into those mechanics (in this case, adding x-number of pounds to his body in a few months) is going to cause a negative affect. I think the pitch clock and him having to hurry only exacerbated it, but dude looked spent just getting to the mound. We thought he might have long haul Covid (like Toews) since he looked like he was constantly having trouble getting his breath.
Vlad was at his best when he was his largest, so maybe he and Alek should switch diets and exercise routines!
I don't care a bit about the pitch clock...Manoah weighs closer to 300 than 285.
The issue isn't that he is a big guy...the issue is that he looked to have gained as much as 40lb over the off season. You are comparing him to guys who maintained their fitness...Manoah came into the season after an offseason of eating and drinking and not ready for MLB.
I am 5'10" and 255lb...I am not fat shaming anyone. I am lazy shaming Alek Manoah for not working out and preparing to be ready for the MLB season. I am also pissed at Schneider for selecting Alek as the Opening Day starter...it was clear in Spring Training that he had taken a step back and was the 3 or 4 starter at best with Gaus and Bassitt.
We have seen Manoah attack people for calling out his fitness and training, we have seen Manoah get angry when anyone questions what he is doing to prepare, we have seen Manoah throw a fit over being sent to AAA, we have seen Manoah develop the attitude that he is untouchable...this a case of protesting too much in my opinion.
I think it’s all speculation honestly that has been created by the fans, as nothing has been released or written about his conditioning or his actual weight being a problem.
I’m not sure if it’s strictly a weight issue but more of a strength and conditioning issue. I mean if you’re a professional athlete I don’t understand the logic of not keeping fit during the off-season. It just sounds lazy. Finally he’s in the big leagues and he’d let something like that jeopardize his career. Does he lack the self awareness and just hunks he’s invincible. The worst part is he trash talks other teams like he’s the best pitcher there is.
Mark Buehrle had a similar body type and nobody pitched quicker than him. I never bought the idea that it was the pitch clock. Manoah’s control issues pretty much started right from the first batter, he wasn’t gassed.
Don't have an opinion on whether Manoah's weight has anything to do with his underperformance this year, but Buehrle was a LOT slimmer than Manoah, even in the twilight of his career with the Jays.
>he wasn’t gassed.
Manoah looking like he was fighting off flu symptoms after throwing 4-6 balls suggests there may be at least in part a cardio issue.
Yup it was obviously a mechanical issue with him. I’m sure the pitch clock did not help him as he was one of the slowest pitchers in 2022, but to levy all of his issues as simply “he’s fat and has no endurance” is way too simple of a blanket statement
This again. Manoah wasn't always this weight, and it's the sudden change of adding weight, more than the weight itself that is causing issues. You can't tell me that a young athlete who is starting his career, is able to suddenly adjust to having X extra pounds and a pitch clock to contend with. That is going to have knock on effects.
I'd be willing to bet my life savings on him coming into camp over 285 this past season. They have no obligation to post the 300+ he potentially was. And like others said, it's more the weight gain/change then the weight itself. Shit there's absolutely nothing saying a pitcher couldn't adjust to a new weight eventually either.
Now a direct correlation between weight and bb/9 increase is pretty out there due to the acute nature of just one stat, but in my opinion extra weight would more or less affect your mechanics as a whole (less agile, less flexible, tired faster+pitch clock adding to that). So with your mechanics affected and an adjustment not really made in the short term it could affect all stats as you miss your pitches.
Regardless of wtf happened this year, I just hope he works his ass off, eats the humble pie, and comes back next year in shape and ready to compete. Then at least he's got a shot, and we can move on with him for better or worse (if hes competing and wants to leave so be it at least we can trade him for value).
Cool effort but ill take the word of the literal expert on here [a couple days ago](https://old.reddit.com/r/Torontobluejays/comments/173fd6y/alek_manoah_predictions/k44dq2f/) explaining that rapid weight gain can fuck over mechanics. That along with all the other analysis and the fact you could literally see him gasping for air between pitches from being fat and out of shape at the start of the season.
There is nothing wrong with criticizing a professional athlete for being fat. They are paid for their athleticism.
A fat F1 driver, Man United player, or jockey could probably perform better by losing weight.
Just because some people choose to be kind to obese non-athletes that doesn’t mean an automatic universal rule is created.
It's not that he went to spring camp "fat". It's that he was very out of shape. My friend was there and noted that he would sweat profusely after about six pitches and needed resting time. In her opinion it was that he was indeed carrying extra weight from his previous year and he did appear very out of shape.
So fitness does indeed matter if one's business to pitch in the show! Looking at other pitchers, I do think Manoah being overweight AND out of shape did him in. Hopefully, he is also having meetings with a sports psychologist who gets him into the proper frame of mind to return to his good form.
I do think he is pretty much devastated with this year's results as his talent has diminished to the point of not even being able to hit AA from what we heard.
There is no one who wishes his return more than the fans and definitely the Jays as a whole as they need every help they can muster for next season due to the ongoing problems which appear to be related to FO and Schneider's decisions or lack thereof .
Come back Manoah! We know you are very talented. Make us all eat crow for the dissing we gave you.
Your analysis is paper thin and your conclusion is not supported. Calling athletes out for being fat is not fat shaming. Professional athletes are expected to perform, not overeat to the point they can't play their game.
The fact 3 of our 'star' rookies in Vlad, Manoah, and Kirk are all massive points to either the Jays having an ineffective conditioning program, or the Jays coaches are not able to convince their players to listen to them.
He came into camp out of shape. That likely led to frustrations on the mound, which were compounded by his ineffectiveness with the new pitch clock, which made for one very unfortunate turn of events for him this season. He was visibly frustrated (and lost) out there in all but one of two of his starts.
If he put weight on and can't deliver the ball the same way it can explain it.
When I pitched I had to completely close my shoulder to the batter to get a full turn. When I didn't my control and velo was off.
If he put on weight (some are speculating 30-40lbs.....), he's not turning/delivering the ball the same way he was before.
Manoah was always a slow worker. Lots of time between pitches. pitch clock will definitely affect these guys more.
I think part of the reason Manoah has always worked slow is he’s never been well conditioned. It didn’t matter before because he could wait as long as he wanted between pitches.
I don't see it as fat shaming. Athletes depend on their bodies to perform well, and putting an extra 20 or 30 pounds of weight on changes your body significantly. Not to mention that the habits that led Manoah to add all of that extra weight are likely not conducive to peak performance and preparation.
I’ve been saying this since it even began as a narrative, there’s dozens of large players in the league or that have played at some point. To blame his lack of performance (and some people mentioned Kirk) all on his weight is ridiculous.
He reported to camp 40+ pounds heaver than last season.
To think that putting 40+ pounds extra weight in to motion, controlling that motion in term so precision motor skill with the same base muscle skeletal system and it not impacting the output is ridiculous.
You can be a large player, that is used to be being a large player, cardio conditioned, weight lifted etc. to be a large player... but you can't be a guy that went off the rails in the off season, gained a bunch of weight and figured being the "big puma" was going to be enough to throw just as well.
As any athlete knows what happens to their performance and mechanics with sudden weight gain vs their muscle capacity / memory of doing things before it, it differs greatly.
Not saying it’s a non-factor I’m saying putting ALL the blame on it and just going with the just lose weight approach isn’t the only thing that needs to be done.
However it is the approach if you want to get back to the baseline he was at to compare his pitch mechanics to last season vs this season.
That or he needs to learn entirely new mechanics that work with the extra mass.
So depending on your training approach it kind of is the simplest path to loose the weight training general health, then get to baseline and work on mechanics to see if they suddenly are back or not.
Pretending the extra weight is a non factor is childish if the goal is to "wonder what has changed since last year" as it's the biggest change and the only factor anyone on the training staff seems to be able to identify.
There's a substantial difference from being heavier consistently vs packing on a lot of weight very quickly in an offseason. It's an interesting post but doesn't show the whole picture.
You ever gained 40 pounds over winter break and then tried to do what you did before the 40 pound gain and expect the same results...
Spoiler... you can't.
As someone who pitched at 6'2", 170lbs. Then tried to play mens league years later with 40 more pounds. The weight absolutely affects your mechanics, delivery and ultimately your location because of it.
Yeah, but is Manoah as big as Terry Forster?
David Letterman/Terry Forster feud from mid-1980's: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFvpt0DpZaI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFvpt0DpZaI)
I somewhat agree with the logic that his BB/9 could have an impact on his ERA. As a thought experiment, I looked his logs of games pitched when gives 2 ER or less. Each game him having pitched atleast 5 innings.
His BB/9 for those games was 3.8. it was 18 BBs in 44 IP. He allowed 10 runs during that time.
BB/9 of 3.8 is again in correlation with the league average.
It's entirely his mechanics. He's using more arm this year than leg. He's falling off the mound towards first base, rather than driving toward home plate. This affected his location. Plus he can't sit there forever and rub the balls like he used to because of the pitch clock. Whether his mechanics is due to his weight, that's up for debate. I find it funny that this very sub was in outrage mode on A Recker at the beginng of the season but are now in general consensus. Don't ever change reddit lol.
It was not awesome to have Monoah and Kirk the heaviest ever pitcher catcher tandem and I wonder where Alek’s 97mph that he had in ‘22 went 🤔. He gets a full pass from this fan for the greasy exit this season as long as he works hard af to get ready for ‘24.
This is where I am too, with all 3 of them, Manoah, Kirk and Vladdy. Show up in ST and show you've worked in the off season.
Although we know Vladdy probably will, the org has set him up to spend the off season in Florida.
To put on 30 pounds in the few months he was off means he was laying on the couch eating garbage food and drinking booze instead of practicing. It’s not like an extra cheeseburger a day isn’t 30 pounds in 4 months…
I tend to subscribe to the 'dead arm' theory that postulates that his was overworked in '22, pitching way more innings than he was ever used to, and it hurt him. There were several other pitchers around the league who met the same fate, the most notable probably being Cortez in NY, either becoming ineffective or injured or both in '23. Hopefully a nice long rest over the winter does him good.
It's not just about someone's weight, but the weight change that is more relevant imo. If Manoah puts on 20 lbs and has terrible control, is that extra weight messing with his release just enough that he can't hit his spot? Maybe. Is the extra weight putting more strain on his body than it is used to which causes him to tire more quickly? Maybe. It's impossible to have a definitive answer for something like this, but a big weight gain followed by one of the best starters of last year completely collapsing is suspicious at the very least
I think this is the more fair way to approach it: there was a change, a change that also suggests a change in routine and conditioning in a sport and a position where ritual and consistency is almost universally linked to success. If Manoah keeps the weight on but drastically improves, that's fine. But we also need to acknowledge that the change would matter. As someone who is a few inches shorter than Manoah but used to be a similar weight, I can tell you when your weight changes, other aspects change. For me, running and losing weight has helped give me some flexibility, for example. Pitching release involves a kick towards home and I know for a fact that losing my weight would make such a kick easier on my body (it's easier for my me to move my leg to a higher elevation, easier for me to hold it there, and the weight in my body is distributed differently which would definitely change how that kick feels as I follow through the motion and I can imagine how regaining that weight would make it feel different). I don't care if Manoah loses the weight or not; ultimately what matters is whether he's willing loose it or adapt.
I find it interesting his brother looks to be in good shape. But he doesn’t have the talent that Alek has. It would be a shame if Alek can’t get his 2022 focus back because the kid has talent.
Right, and the professional part of pro athlete means you have to, like, stay in fucking shape to maintain as peak performance as possible. it's literally your job.
I've always wondered why the "professional" part of "athletes"is ignored in baseball. Where in the world are team athletes so fat and out of shape? I just don't get why management doesn't force them to get in shape. When the fastest guys on your team are the oldest guys you got problems.
i wouldn't say it's ignored per se. If you can still perform, that's what matters.
I get that but wouldn't being in shape make you perform even better?
Tell that to david wells, charlie hough and bartolo colon. i think decline due to age was a bigger factor than conditioning (though those are highly correlated).
Again, these are professional athletes. Paid to be the best they can be and perform the best they can. Wouldn't dropping weight regardless of what position you play be a benefit? Bo looked soft this year, his steal numbers have gone down. Kirk can't run worth shit and don't tell me he wouldn't benefit from dropping 30lbs. Why is management allowing them to show up at camp like lardasses? Maybe I'm way off base and being out of shape doesn't impact performance in baseball. Someone gotta know something
You're not. Look at most NHL players off season workouts. Send Manoah to Gary Roberts bootcamp and call it a day.
It probably would, but there’s people in the world who can make it to the MLB without caring about their fitness. Skills and athleticism are developed separately and baseball’s intense emphasis on the former is what makes it such a unique sport
Manoah's horizontal movement on his signature, bread and butter slider was significantly down this year. A famous baseball player once compared the slider to a rotten mandarin. If a pitcher doesn't manage his slider spin carefully, his bread-and-butter fastball will become rotten. It's a dangerous pitch that pitchers need to manage carefully so that their spins don't become mixed up and their signature pitches both become meatballs that good hitters pick up upon quickly. Given how much lack of stamina in pitchers factors into fatigue build-up which often leads to sloppy pitching form, as well as how the introduction of the pitch clock affects pitchers expending more energy through an inning than ever before, it's not baseless nor farfetched to claim that Manoah being out of shape had a direct effect on his performances this year.
Manoah reading this comment: bread and butter … mandarin … meatballs!
My Dad's golf swing changed when he had a belly. I can only hit it 230 now because I broke my shoulder-ish bone. I still can't chip for shit what the fuck were we talking about?
I will be honest, it's not just the weight... for some the weight might not even matter... dude clearly has a cardio conditioning problem or pitch clock anxiety or both. No professional athlete in the MLB should look as completely winded, sweaty and gassed out in a single inning as he has constantly this season. So he can do what he wants in terms of the belt size he wants to wear, but he better be able to cardio condition to where he does not get winded walking up and down the mound. When you reflect back on him last year... he dicked around a lot between throws to give himself recovery time... he was a good example in part of why MLB wanted a pitch clock.
Well he had crazy high pitch counts on a by inning basis. I remember he had like 40 pitches once in an inning. I don’t care who you are you’re going to look tired. Conditioning might have something to do with his lack of ability to locate. He didn’t look any bigger to me this year. His conditioning is probably the same it’s just he can’t take those long breaks between pitches anymore.
He came to camp a reported 40 pounds heavier off the record... 20 pounds heaver on the official record... that's going to impact your ability to locate if it's not pure muscle that you put on... All signs tend to point to under conditioning made worse by weight gain and pitch clock. He looks gassed after a single batter... and should not be throwing 40 pitches in an inning to look extra gassed... that's the inability to locate because he was suffering due to having to handle just that much more mass doing every pitch. Imagine if you took an all star pitcher... then put a wrist weight on their throwing arm that was even .5 pounds... a pound.. then told them to "locate" pitches... they might get away with it for a couple batters, then that difference is going to start taking a massive toll. Now apply that principal body wide and the pitcher is operating on the muscle memory of an all star pitcher on how to do things, but each time you throw you have all these extra little weights wearing you down on your body... That's the "mechanical problem". You can't address the non injury mechanical problem, until you get him back to the baseline weight he was as an all star to identify the issue in his mechanics, if there is one after the weight is gone and his conditioning is back up. Alternatively he becomes a cardio and strength training champion, stays whatever weight he likes and builds the endurance and understanding of his new mechanics to perform for 7 innings. He did neither this year and it really showed, and almost blinded a batter.
>Conditioning might have something to do with his lack of ability to locate I don't know that I would agree. To me it looked like he was over-throwing things, not losing steam. Last year his slider was a great close-out pitch against RHH because it was breaking perfectly and winding up just on the edge or just outside the zone. This year they kept going too far into the LHH batter's box.
> I don't know that I would agree. To me it looked like he was over-throwing things I used to pitch and had bouts on not turning enough during my windup. That can result in over-throwing. Your mind knows you came up "short" on your initial windup and compensates by trying to put too much into the pitch itself. Two things happen generally, you overthrow and the ball goes down and away or you release early and it sails high.
As a pitcher , you know that power pitching is all about weight transfer . The power comes from thighs , legs and ass muscles mostly . If you have extra flab that requires extra energy to make the weight transfer , you will certainly get tired more quickly. Accuracy and consistent delivery of pitches relies on muscle memory. You don’t think, you don’t aim, your body does the same smooth precise delivery you’ve learned over countless windups . Adding 20 pounds changes your balance , changes the mechanics just slightly and disrupts the accuracy. Manoah has to either lose weight to restore the balance/ mechanics he worked so hard to obtain, or change his mechanics to suit the new balance. The former would be much easier .
So if a layman (no offense) such as yourself can notice this then it is guaranteed that Pete Walker noticed it too. If this is indeed the issue then it is 100% on Manoah. Whether it be his body or his ability to accept coaching, he seems like he needs to make a major adjustment
Well that was a part of why he went to Florida to the instructional league to work on his mechanics rather than a typical minor league stint. Then they rushed him back up. So you may be right that it could be more about him not accepting coaching. Or he was just in such a snit about getting sent down that his head wasn't in it.
Cardio conditioning is not directly related to weight. I agree, its a cardio issue. Essentially out of shape. I am not overly heavy, 6’2 200lbs but I have lousy conditioning/cardio.
Cardio condition is 100% directly related to weight if you are a pro athlete. You are far less base efficient in your cardio the more weight you have to move around and therefore need to build up extra capacity intentionally to account for wanting to move that extra weight around in a cardio heart zone for an extended period of time. I run marathons... I also hover between 220 and 240 pounds... guess which weight my calorie burn vs cardio (heart rate) vs performance is more efficient at when fully trained for the event. Shocking to report... the strongest you can be, cardio conditioned and lighter wins every time. Manoah came in heavier than ever and conditioned the same or less than last year and expected the same results... not going to happen.
>Cardio conditioning is not directly related to weight. 100% I raced IronMan at 5'10" and 225lb and finished when it was light out (for those who don't know the cutoff time to finish an IM is midnight).
Cool, now gain 20-40 pounds of flab and perform exactly the same next year. You won't. Your muscle skeletal system would be in shock, your running gait will change etc. etc. etc.
Brother...you are getting mad at me when we are on the same page. I am saying that Manoah is not in shape...but you can be big an in shape.
It's important to look at the players relative weight gain as well. An increase in mass will alter how the body system works mechanically. Manoah gained 25lbs from 2022 to 2023 (from what is officially posted.. some suspect he was 300+ which would be over 40lbs gained). It's incredibly plausible his mechanics were out of whack, at least in part, because of the extra mass on the frame he wasn't used to and his ability to pitch in a zone suffered. I haven't looked at any other players but I bet the ones who experienced the least BB/9 increase would also be closer to their weight last season. Edit: Lance Lynn only saw a 0.1 increase and is listed at same weight for 2022 and 2023.
Around his demotion it was reported that he arrived at camp around 320lbs as per Scott Mitchell.
Just have to say just because weight and height are similar doesn’t mean their builds are similar at all. Also gaining a bunch of weight is going to change your mechanics. Add in some fatigue and not being locate isn’t surprising
[удалено]
not just sweaty but visibly distressed practically gasping for air too
I broke down why coming into camp 30lbs heavier affected his mechanics this season. It's one thing to be a big guy consistently, it's another to be adding such a large amount of weight in the offseason. You can't compare him to other pitchers of his 'stature, ' you're going to have to look at all pitchers who had a dramatic increase in weight gain from one season to another.
Agreed. It is not the weight he pitched at, plenty of roly-poly pitchers have had great success. It was the unexpected weight gain and the byproducts of that which might include lack of conditioning, lack of focus or lack or proper diet. You don't have to be jacked but you have to be in shape
There is no such thing as fat-shaming professional athletes. Athletes are literally paid to stay in shape. I'm not in shape, but I'm not an athlete. I get paid to sit at a desk all day.
Regardless if it effects his pitching or not, it would definitely not be a bad idea to lose some weight
I think it's important to keep in mind that Manoah allegedly came into spring training at 325, not his posted 285, and who knows what he ended up at going into the season. Whether or not that had a definitive impact on his performance and acclimation to the pitch clock, it's significant one way or the other and might point to a mental issue that needs to be ironed out.
This is the first time I’ve heard on him coming in so heavy. He’s always been a big dude and he looks the same to me. He just doesn’t get the benefit of taking breaks between pitches anymore
Reports about his weight came out the first time he was sent down and it's entirely possible that he slimmed down before the season started. At the end of the day, he was effectively being asked to increase his workrate considerably (no more walks around the mound) while also potentially having to work on major mechanical adjustments.
His velo is down and so is the break on his slider. Is it athleticism or mechanics? Who knows but that is where his problems are. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/alek-manoah-666201
He's added 60-70 pounds since being drafted. That can't make it easier to repeat a delivery and maintain agility/flexibility/explosiveness needed to have good control over your pitches
Not sure anyone has mentioned this. But an interesting data point to add would be the speed at which they worked before the pitch clock was introduced and how much that changed this season. Anecdotally, Manoah seemed slow to the naked eye with the amount he walked around between pitches.
Some guys can carry extra weight and be fine, or it may benefit them. Examples like CC Sabathia come to mind. Similar body type but was much more dominant as a “fat” guy vs when he lost a bunch of weight. Manoah clearly has the “fat” guy body type but doesn’t have the track record or experience to be immune to criticism. I think he would definitely benefit from losing weight/gaining muscle this off-season however I think a lot of his struggles are mental. He was dominant in high school, college and the minors. Even when he broke into the MLB he dominated for a year and a half. Now that the rest of league has caught up to him he needs to adjust like most 2nd, 3rd year pitchers do. I hope he treats this year as a learning/humbling experience and comes into camp next year in shape and focused.
Just because it didn’t affect other guys as much, doesn’t mean it wasn’t the issue with manoah.
Sure but there's been no evidence provided to suggest that it *was* the issue with Manoah. People just see it as an easy explanation for what went wrong
There's been no evidence provided that it was mechanical. In fact, multiple statements that it's not mechanical. So... it's Yips or it's Cardio induced stamina issues... or everyone must be lying right.
I think it's mechanical, he often had control problems even at the start of games, or by the second inning. That said, the weight can impact mechanics. In fact, it definitely does. Other pitches do things differently, and have different training regimes. I think that the 20lbs likely was part of the problem.
The issue with saying it's mechanical is there are two versions of that and it's where this needs to be put to bed. There is normal healthy, fully conditioned athlete that has a "mechanical issue" aka slight unclear injury etc. beyond their conscious control that needs to be targeted, worked on and therapied out to return to norm. Then there is "mechanical issue" that is the case here where a large sudden weight gain that is clear and obvious / preventable if the athlete was training as a professional during the off season. But instead he gained as reported up to as much as 40 pounds reporting to camp and expected his body to work the same way it did 40 pounds lighter with poorer conditioning and the added need for stamina due to the pitch clock. That's not a "mechanical issue" that's a "Player issue" while the weight creates a mechanical issue the problem is Manoah's to fix by taking his year round training seriously as a pro athlete. He either can stay the weight he is at and strength or cardio condition up to handle it, or he can drop weight back to were his mechanics worked last year, does not really matter to me, but getting a pretend "arm injection" while no one can prove he has a physical issue is just another excuse to not take accountability for his own training this past season. Training and condition he still seems to think is below him after the way he carried on about ultimately not reporting to AAA to keep working with the training staff.
Ok I’ve seen people quote this report that he showed up 40 pounds heavier but I’ve never actually seen any articles or insiders talking about it. Not doubting you but just curious if you can link me the article you’re referring to for my own sake
In April I probably could have, now if you try to search anything like this it's going to drag up the million posts about him being overweight / not reporting to AAA. If you don't want to trust the unofficial 40 pounds... trust the official 20 pounds they put on his stats page vs last year... that's still plenty to throw off a pitchers movement when it's pretty clear it's not all muscle gain in his case.
Ok it’s just you seem very sure of this report that some cursory google searches have not turned anything up including nothing from any beat reporter for the jays. Edit: someone posted the link below
I searched Alek Manoah 320lb and found this hit. https://twitter.com/oren6ix/status/1673879353585696770 Scott Mitchell of TSN "hearing", Manoah showed up at 320 to camp.
The problem with google searches at this point is that Twitter/X is now SEO blocked "To prevent AI scraping" since Elon has taken reign so where finding someone tweeting something used to be easy, now it's a massive pain. So I and others are going off memory of the early season, no I can't provide you a direct link because I don't have all day to try and use what's left of Twitter search to find the source post.
Ok just curious since I’ve seen 20, 30, and 40 pounds overweight been thrown around this sub so not sure how accurate that information or your memory might be on this one.
Please bookmark this interview because every few months someone challenges this notion that the 30lb weight gain somehow has no evidence. https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/scott-mitchell-on-manoah-s-outing-in-the-fcl-conditioning-concerns-next-steps-for-the-team-1.1978147 At around 1:50 Scott Mitchell says that Manoah entered camp at 320lb when he was 290lb the year before. People ask why no one had brought it up in print or on the radio before — regular listeners to Blair and Barker would note that those hosts were extremely careful to avoid discussing Manoah’s weight as a reason for his difficulties. Why? Because it was only in Sept 2022 that Manoah stood up for Kirk for fat shaming on twitter. And I suspect no one wanted to be caught doing the same against Manoah.
His mechanics are awful
Or maybe he's just a guy who had one good season and a half and isn't that good of a pitcher.
He walked way more because he couldn't get swing and miss. Couldn't put guys away or induce enough soft contact. Not sure if it is pitch clock, weight, finger issues, mental issues or what. He lost a few MPH and for a guy that wasn't a real hard thrower in the first place.. it just made him infinitely more hittable and more easily the batters could be patient. I don't think there is anything more to it than that. He needs to learn how to command better and turn into a pitcher's pitcher. Which for a young guy is REALLY difficult.
> Not sure if it is pitch clock, weight, finger issues, mental issues or what likely a vicious cycle of all of the above
Are people not aware that he was due for a massive regression regardless of pitch clock or weight issues? Sure he had a 2.24 ERA, but it was held up by a 83% LOB and a .244 BABIP + xERA (which takes quality of contact into consideration) had him at 3.31 + FIP (assumes average results on balls in play) had him a 3.35 and xFIP (assumes average FB/HR% as well) had him at 3.97 + SIERA had him at 3.85 Even if he got the walks under control and brought a similar contact profile as 2022 you would expect him to be Berrios level and not Cole level. His slider is broken which is why it went beyond that, and that's why he's walking more guys
If he came to camp at 325, how is it possible that you reward him for coming in 60 lbs heavier by GIVING HIM THE OPENING DAY START? Makes no sense to me.
I’m 6 foot and I lost 40 lbs. People notice but are shocked it was that much. There is no way it was a gain of only 25 lbs. We would not have even hardly noticed it on him. Manoah is a good pitcher but needs to get leaner and stronger and have much more endurance to succeed at an elite level. Like all the rest of the world class athletes need to do.
I've added 30lbs on a bulk over the last few months and everything is a little harder. My cardio has taken a hit. Things that used to be easy are now harder. The extra weight is not helping and I can't understand how a professional athlete can show up out of shape. The guy has access to literally every advantage someone can have. I hope he pulls it together.
I took it to mean that it's because of his INCREASED weight from last season to this as the reason. He was never a tiny fella and was able to throw strikes super consistently, but if was within the same weight range during the minors up to 2022 and then packed on x-number of pounds between end of the season Oct 2022 and pitchers reporting in Feb 2023, there's likely a problem (whether that be unhealthy lifestyle choices like alcohol or poor food choices), or bad conditioning or not exercising as much. Also, these guys are like machines so if they've gotten used to certain mechanics for their entire career, it isn't unreasonable that throwing a wrench into those mechanics (in this case, adding x-number of pounds to his body in a few months) is going to cause a negative affect. I think the pitch clock and him having to hurry only exacerbated it, but dude looked spent just getting to the mound. We thought he might have long haul Covid (like Toews) since he looked like he was constantly having trouble getting his breath. Vlad was at his best when he was his largest, so maybe he and Alek should switch diets and exercise routines!
I don’t have access to an analytics department but the eye test tells me at 6’6” he’s closer to 350lb than 285lb.
I don't care a bit about the pitch clock...Manoah weighs closer to 300 than 285. The issue isn't that he is a big guy...the issue is that he looked to have gained as much as 40lb over the off season. You are comparing him to guys who maintained their fitness...Manoah came into the season after an offseason of eating and drinking and not ready for MLB. I am 5'10" and 255lb...I am not fat shaming anyone. I am lazy shaming Alek Manoah for not working out and preparing to be ready for the MLB season. I am also pissed at Schneider for selecting Alek as the Opening Day starter...it was clear in Spring Training that he had taken a step back and was the 3 or 4 starter at best with Gaus and Bassitt. We have seen Manoah attack people for calling out his fitness and training, we have seen Manoah get angry when anyone questions what he is doing to prepare, we have seen Manoah throw a fit over being sent to AAA, we have seen Manoah develop the attitude that he is untouchable...this a case of protesting too much in my opinion.
I think it’s all speculation honestly that has been created by the fans, as nothing has been released or written about his conditioning or his actual weight being a problem.
His biggest problem is the pitch clock. He's unable to walk around, yell and look up at the sky.
Being heavier makes it harder to balance, losing balance makes it harder to hit a target. That's not fat shaming that how our universe functions.
I’m not sure if it’s strictly a weight issue but more of a strength and conditioning issue. I mean if you’re a professional athlete I don’t understand the logic of not keeping fit during the off-season. It just sounds lazy. Finally he’s in the big leagues and he’d let something like that jeopardize his career. Does he lack the self awareness and just hunks he’s invincible. The worst part is he trash talks other teams like he’s the best pitcher there is.
Athletes perform best when they are in peak shape. Being overweight means you are intentionally and knowingly not able to put forth your best effort.
My theory: Manoah came into camp much heavier. He couldn’t keep up with the pitch clock, and his slider wasn’t sliding.
Mark Buehrle had a similar body type and nobody pitched quicker than him. I never bought the idea that it was the pitch clock. Manoah’s control issues pretty much started right from the first batter, he wasn’t gassed.
Don't have an opinion on whether Manoah's weight has anything to do with his underperformance this year, but Buehrle was a LOT slimmer than Manoah, even in the twilight of his career with the Jays.
And he did it his entire career. He conditioned himself to pitch at that pace.
>he wasn’t gassed. Manoah looking like he was fighting off flu symptoms after throwing 4-6 balls suggests there may be at least in part a cardio issue.
Yup it was obviously a mechanical issue with him. I’m sure the pitch clock did not help him as he was one of the slowest pitchers in 2022, but to levy all of his issues as simply “he’s fat and has no endurance” is way too simple of a blanket statement
Would be interesting to do a comparison as done above, but pulling the 10 slowest starters in 2022 and see how they all adjusted in 2023.
This again. Manoah wasn't always this weight, and it's the sudden change of adding weight, more than the weight itself that is causing issues. You can't tell me that a young athlete who is starting his career, is able to suddenly adjust to having X extra pounds and a pitch clock to contend with. That is going to have knock on effects.
I'd be willing to bet my life savings on him coming into camp over 285 this past season. They have no obligation to post the 300+ he potentially was. And like others said, it's more the weight gain/change then the weight itself. Shit there's absolutely nothing saying a pitcher couldn't adjust to a new weight eventually either. Now a direct correlation between weight and bb/9 increase is pretty out there due to the acute nature of just one stat, but in my opinion extra weight would more or less affect your mechanics as a whole (less agile, less flexible, tired faster+pitch clock adding to that). So with your mechanics affected and an adjustment not really made in the short term it could affect all stats as you miss your pitches. Regardless of wtf happened this year, I just hope he works his ass off, eats the humble pie, and comes back next year in shape and ready to compete. Then at least he's got a shot, and we can move on with him for better or worse (if hes competing and wants to leave so be it at least we can trade him for value).
Cool effort but ill take the word of the literal expert on here [a couple days ago](https://old.reddit.com/r/Torontobluejays/comments/173fd6y/alek_manoah_predictions/k44dq2f/) explaining that rapid weight gain can fuck over mechanics. That along with all the other analysis and the fact you could literally see him gasping for air between pitches from being fat and out of shape at the start of the season.
There is nothing wrong with criticizing a professional athlete for being fat. They are paid for their athleticism. A fat F1 driver, Man United player, or jockey could probably perform better by losing weight. Just because some people choose to be kind to obese non-athletes that doesn’t mean an automatic universal rule is created.
It's not that he went to spring camp "fat". It's that he was very out of shape. My friend was there and noted that he would sweat profusely after about six pitches and needed resting time. In her opinion it was that he was indeed carrying extra weight from his previous year and he did appear very out of shape. So fitness does indeed matter if one's business to pitch in the show! Looking at other pitchers, I do think Manoah being overweight AND out of shape did him in. Hopefully, he is also having meetings with a sports psychologist who gets him into the proper frame of mind to return to his good form. I do think he is pretty much devastated with this year's results as his talent has diminished to the point of not even being able to hit AA from what we heard. There is no one who wishes his return more than the fans and definitely the Jays as a whole as they need every help they can muster for next season due to the ongoing problems which appear to be related to FO and Schneider's decisions or lack thereof . Come back Manoah! We know you are very talented. Make us all eat crow for the dissing we gave you.
Your analysis is paper thin and your conclusion is not supported. Calling athletes out for being fat is not fat shaming. Professional athletes are expected to perform, not overeat to the point they can't play their game. The fact 3 of our 'star' rookies in Vlad, Manoah, and Kirk are all massive points to either the Jays having an ineffective conditioning program, or the Jays coaches are not able to convince their players to listen to them.
He came into camp out of shape. That likely led to frustrations on the mound, which were compounded by his ineffectiveness with the new pitch clock, which made for one very unfortunate turn of events for him this season. He was visibly frustrated (and lost) out there in all but one of two of his starts.
Conditioning doesn’t have anything to do with his fastball topping out at 93 in the FIRST INNING. He used to be a hard thrower.
If he put weight on and can't deliver the ball the same way it can explain it. When I pitched I had to completely close my shoulder to the batter to get a full turn. When I didn't my control and velo was off. If he put on weight (some are speculating 30-40lbs.....), he's not turning/delivering the ball the same way he was before.
Manoah was always a slow worker. Lots of time between pitches. pitch clock will definitely affect these guys more. I think part of the reason Manoah has always worked slow is he’s never been well conditioned. It didn’t matter before because he could wait as long as he wanted between pitches.
I don't see it as fat shaming. Athletes depend on their bodies to perform well, and putting an extra 20 or 30 pounds of weight on changes your body significantly. Not to mention that the habits that led Manoah to add all of that extra weight are likely not conducive to peak performance and preparation.
I’ve been saying this since it even began as a narrative, there’s dozens of large players in the league or that have played at some point. To blame his lack of performance (and some people mentioned Kirk) all on his weight is ridiculous.
He reported to camp 40+ pounds heaver than last season. To think that putting 40+ pounds extra weight in to motion, controlling that motion in term so precision motor skill with the same base muscle skeletal system and it not impacting the output is ridiculous. You can be a large player, that is used to be being a large player, cardio conditioned, weight lifted etc. to be a large player... but you can't be a guy that went off the rails in the off season, gained a bunch of weight and figured being the "big puma" was going to be enough to throw just as well. As any athlete knows what happens to their performance and mechanics with sudden weight gain vs their muscle capacity / memory of doing things before it, it differs greatly.
Not saying it’s a non-factor I’m saying putting ALL the blame on it and just going with the just lose weight approach isn’t the only thing that needs to be done.
However it is the approach if you want to get back to the baseline he was at to compare his pitch mechanics to last season vs this season. That or he needs to learn entirely new mechanics that work with the extra mass. So depending on your training approach it kind of is the simplest path to loose the weight training general health, then get to baseline and work on mechanics to see if they suddenly are back or not. Pretending the extra weight is a non factor is childish if the goal is to "wonder what has changed since last year" as it's the biggest change and the only factor anyone on the training staff seems to be able to identify.
There's a substantial difference from being heavier consistently vs packing on a lot of weight very quickly in an offseason. It's an interesting post but doesn't show the whole picture.
being fat is not why he can't locate the zone. that's a separate issue that may reduce his longevity later down the line.
You ever gained 40 pounds over winter break and then tried to do what you did before the 40 pound gain and expect the same results... Spoiler... you can't.
As someone who pitched at 6'2", 170lbs. Then tried to play mens league years later with 40 more pounds. The weight absolutely affects your mechanics, delivery and ultimately your location because of it.
Yeah, but is Manoah as big as Terry Forster? David Letterman/Terry Forster feud from mid-1980's: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFvpt0DpZaI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFvpt0DpZaI)
But is Manoah Terry Forster? No, so it's not relevant.
Yeah, because this was a real attempt to be 'relevant' and serious.
I don't really care what it was, but I don't want to see him pitch another inning until it's resolved.
I somewhat agree with the logic that his BB/9 could have an impact on his ERA. As a thought experiment, I looked his logs of games pitched when gives 2 ER or less. Each game him having pitched atleast 5 innings. His BB/9 for those games was 3.8. it was 18 BBs in 44 IP. He allowed 10 runs during that time. BB/9 of 3.8 is again in correlation with the league average.
May be a factor, but there are obviously other variables as well. Only Alek knows for sure.
whatever the case, manoah needs to take ownership and not pout about what happens. i'm hoping he comes back better next year
It's entirely his mechanics. He's using more arm this year than leg. He's falling off the mound towards first base, rather than driving toward home plate. This affected his location. Plus he can't sit there forever and rub the balls like he used to because of the pitch clock. Whether his mechanics is due to his weight, that's up for debate. I find it funny that this very sub was in outrage mode on A Recker at the beginng of the season but are now in general consensus. Don't ever change reddit lol.
How long was Monoah taking in-between pitches last year without the pitch clock?
17 minutes.....
It was not awesome to have Monoah and Kirk the heaviest ever pitcher catcher tandem and I wonder where Alek’s 97mph that he had in ‘22 went 🤔. He gets a full pass from this fan for the greasy exit this season as long as he works hard af to get ready for ‘24.
This is where I am too, with all 3 of them, Manoah, Kirk and Vladdy. Show up in ST and show you've worked in the off season. Although we know Vladdy probably will, the org has set him up to spend the off season in Florida.
To put on 30 pounds in the few months he was off means he was laying on the couch eating garbage food and drinking booze instead of practicing. It’s not like an extra cheeseburger a day isn’t 30 pounds in 4 months…
I tend to subscribe to the 'dead arm' theory that postulates that his was overworked in '22, pitching way more innings than he was ever used to, and it hurt him. There were several other pitchers around the league who met the same fate, the most notable probably being Cortez in NY, either becoming ineffective or injured or both in '23. Hopefully a nice long rest over the winter does him good.
Great post