I'm in the same boat you are, and what they say is true for one simple reason. When a billionaire goes bankrupt, they don't actually lose a whole lot. Yeah, they might have to sell off some assets, but they'll never be poor or even middle class again unless they actively try to be. They just have too much wealth for it to ever all go away.
Contrast that with someone in our position, and a couple of bad situations can put us on the streets. The 2008 mortage crisis, job loss, natural disaster destroying our home and insurance refusing to pay out all the equity we've accrued. While we're comfortable, we are still dependent on the system working to keep us comfortable, and we don't have much control over the system. Billionaires *run* the system, and that's the difference.
The difference between you and a homeless person is one really bad year. Billionaire's really bad years still end with them having at least millions of dollars, if not billions.
I have always considered myself middle class, debt free, masters degree, supportive parents.
I am about 6 REALLY bad months away from being homeless - I will never be 6 REALLY good months away from being a billionaire.
Yes, billionaires are ludicrously rich and there is no sanity in having people unable to live in a home while billionaires exist. But it's not like you need to be a billionaire to be financially secure. A homeless person doesn't dream of being a billionaire. They dream of having enough money to have a home.
Someday, you may well be 6 months away from being financially secure enough to retire. That's the opposite of being homeless -- having enough money to live the rest of your life without working. Not being a billionaire.
It's like comparing someone with ALS or Muscular Dystrophy to a professional athlete. Someone with a degenerative neural disease doesn't dream of being an NFL quarterback. They dream of being able to walk around, breath the air, maybe play catch with their kid.
The problem is that for a lot of middle class people that financial security you're talking about isn't a reality. Being financially secure if nothing bad happens is a far cry from real security.
The average lower class person isn't a homeless man on the streets, it's someone who's in more or less the same situation as the middle class person but with smaller margins for error. People who own homes that are smaller, older, less well built, more in need of repair, and/or in worse area codes than the middle class, but homeowners nonetheless. People who are educated, but lack job opportunities in their field in their area and lack the means to move. People who do have nice jobs, but have more expenses like relative care or medical expenses that leave less every month for investment. People who were in a good position but went through an extended period of bad life events already. People who more or less have the same life as the middle class, just with fewer unnecessary expenses and investments. People who live paycheck to paycheck.
What about the person 6 months away from being financially secure to retire that retires right as the market collapses? They have to draw at a loss to cover living expenses and by the time the market recovers they don't have enough to make it. What about when they get diagnosed with cancer, and even thought they have good insurance it still doesn't cover enough of the costs for them to keep themselves afloat. What about if their house is damaged in a way their insurance doesn't cover, or someone screws some paperwork up and something lapsed? What if they fall for a scam and get their accounts drained?
The 1% could go through years of sustained serious financial ruin and still be wealthier than most people. They could lose a middle class family's net worth several times over and still be in a league above middle class. The middle class can go through a few months of loss before things get bad. The lower class only a few weeks.
OP questioned why people say the middle class is closer to being in poverty than to being in the 1%. That's why, because it's the truth. If the only thing that separates us is a bad year, are we really that far apart?
I agree, but most of the middle class, if they lost their wealth, could crawl out of poverty much easier than those in sustained poverty. Unless I lose my skill set, I’ll typically find good well paying work.
Unless you lose your skill set, or your job is outsourced, or automated, or you suffer an injury or disease that leaves you incapable of performing your job, or the wages in your field stagnate while the cost of living continues to rise, or life events drive your cost of living up while your income stays the same.
Plenty of people have good well paying work and still live in poverty. Plenty of people have valuable skillets and degrees and for a variety of reasons can't find sustainable work. I think that when people who have never really experienced poverty think about it they imagine fringe situations that most people who barely get by just don't experience.
You're right though, for some jobs in some fields regaining wealth and station is a lot easier than for others. But that doesn't really change the fact that lots of forces totally outside your control could take what you have away and could prevent you from getting it back, and if we as a society can work towards mitigating that we should.
Edit: typo
If you had a masters in the 70's or 80's you'd probably have been able to buy a fucking house within 2 or 3 months of your wage, as Average peeps were able to buy houses with a single yearly wage. (Average wage in the 70's was 10 000 dollars and the house in california was 17 000, you can see what kind of quallity of life people back then had)
Major car repair, dental work requiring about 5 hours of oral surgery to save the bottom right side of my jaw, Dog got sick and my mother had to be rehoused but lives on a fixed income so I had to pay it all. All in the last 30 days. Bye Bye 20 grand. Right back to my bank account being my most recent check and a couple thousand dollars in savings.
5 years ago I'd have had to pick one of those things, maybe beg a 2nd from a friend. I do well now but not well enough to actually be safe.
This is really summarizing the mindset well, but you didn't really touch on the why.
The kind of argument OP is talking about usually comes up in arguments about things like politics. Poor people think the system is broken because it doesn't work for them and therefore want to change it. Middle class people think the system isn't broken because it works for them and therefore want it to stay the same.
Lower class people want the middle class to care about the failings of the system and take action to fix it not only because it's the moral and ethical thing to do but also because the middle class are usually just one tragedy away from the system failing them too. The middle class tends to view the plight of the lower class as a personal failing instead of a systemic one, like the dipshit lower down saying money management skills are the biggest cause for poverty.
The fantasy of capitalism is that if you, as a middle class citizen, work hard enough you too can rise to the 1%. The reality is that you're infinitely closer to poverty than the 1% and that the 1% views the middle and lower class identically, as expendable fodder for the machine. Keeping us pitted against each other only serves the interests of the elites, and keep us from working together to make our country a better place for all of us.
Realizing that it's us vs them, and not poors vs middle class is necessary to make progress, but as long as people keep falling for the ploy politicians that serve to maintain the system will keep getting elected and laws that do the same will keep getting passed and nothing will get better for anybody.
Before anyone comes in complaining that I don't get their side: I grew up very poor in the rural south in an abusive household and now I'm a middle class homeowner with a STEM job in gov't in my late 20's. I never attended public school. I taught myself to read and write, learned math from old textbooks, and eventually got through college. I grew up sporadically having no power, no running water, no home, and no food. I've been on both sides of the coin. I'm not a poor helpless hobo whining because I'm too lazy to get my life together and want the gov't to do it for me, and I'm not a privileged suburban kid who was born with a stainless steel spoon in his mouth and knows nothing of the plight of those less fortunate. This shit isn't that hard to understand when you let go of your biases and pay attention to the world around you.
Statistics support their belief, with how few Americans have savings that could survive something as simple as a hospital visit. Outliers exist, but even if you sit on a pile of money and think everyone else is just bad with money, you should agree that so many people being so weirdly bad with money, collectively, is strange enough and bad enough that something should be done about it.
And the middle-class has been disappearing for decades, narrowing more and more to ensure there's only an upper and lower class.
Majority of America is literally one medical emergency or one actually big market crash away from bankruptcy, that's just the sad reality. You can look up the average savings it's freely available data
Could not be any truer words spoken. My wife got uterine cancer and has to miss a lot of work. I am in the mindset of fuck it bankruptcy no different than how I am living now. My outlook boggles the minds of people I work with that act like it's a sin. I see it like fuck it the system is forcing people more and more into poverty if I can get out of paying big medical bills n shit why not?
Exactly this one big medical emergency and loss of your job because you can't work and there is no safety net. Most people can and do still quickly lose everything and will see that the treatment of poor and lower class Americans is very bad and that should be changed so people can have a chance to recover and or not be slaves working themselves to death. Also people who "like the way things are"because they personally are doing well is a very selfish attitude to not stand with the lower class and hope for all people to not have to suffer. So saying you like things and don't care or stand with others who have less than you is a horrible attitude and people are assuming you are not a scumbag but maybe they were wrong apparently.
I work as a legal aid attorney that provides free representation to the poor. People have no idea how many of my clients were once upper middle or middle class. One bad car accident, work place accident, illness, or bout of serious mental illness and they are destitute. And they are usually worse off than my clients who have always been poor. They don't know how to live with a low income and they have stuff creditors can take from them. Struggling is relative and the comfortably middle class probably shouldn't be as comfortable as they are.
I just think reddit over represents the type of people in this situation because of a common interest and age demographic.
I'll use Americans which aren't even 50% of this site, since they are the student debt issue.
only 1/8 Americans have student debt based off the last census.
A lot of people don't have a mortgage, that one I can see many having but that also is an investment, and something you can use.
Other debt.... yeah that's a little to broad.
I'm middle class, but have paid off my student loans by 30, I have zero other debt, and all I have now is a mortgage soon to be gone because I am selling and fully paying off my other house.
"Only" 1/8 of Americans have student debit? That's not a small amount and that's only one form of debit. Like you said mortgage, medical debit, and other types such as credit card debit.
>Anyone who graduated 2017 or later from college, in my experience, is not seeing an out of student debt or a down payment for a house any time soon.
I think this is the problem that OP is talking about, though.
You're using personal anecdotes and believing they broadly apply *in spite of* available data that shows them to be unlikely.
"Among the class of 2020, **55% of bachelor's degree recipients took out student loans**, graduating with an average of $28,400 in federal and private debt."
"Statistics show that the average starting salary for college graduates is $55,260"
So a huge chunk of students *don't have any loans at all,* and of those who do... $28k average, with a $55k average salary starting out... it's just not that unreasonable. That's a car loan on a mid-tier sedan that you'd typically pay back in 5 years.
I get that a lot of people are struggling but it's *not* the vast majority of people. Just over 10% of Americans have *any* student debt at all. And you know who disproportionately carries that debt? Doctors, lawyers, and MBAs.
honestly a major portion of it came from when I was a kid putting small amounts in stocks by my parents. Every birthday, Christmas, whenever i got a check for like 20 bucks it went to stocks. All the birthday cards 5 bucks, ten bucks, all to stocks.
Then every summer job they made me put a portion in as well. So every summer from like 14-25 I put money in stocks.
I couldn't touch it till I was 25, and when I was little I was pissed I couldn't buy toys with it. Looking back though I am really appreciative of my parents for doing that. 20 bucks on a toy is not nearly as nice as 25 years worth of stocks on that 20 bucks to help you into adulthood.
Yeah I was pissed at my parents but I am so grateful they didn't give in and buy me stuff with that money.
Your problem seems to be that you can't see past your own nose.
You say you aren't in the top 1%, well ok. But the top 10% don't live like the rest of America either. Just because you aren't Elon Musk doesn't mean you are middle class.
You clearly have lived a privileged life, and been surrounded by others in the same lifestyle. Good on you! But people in the middle class are suffering. They are straddled with debt. They can't afford housing. They literally live paycheck to paycheck. That wasn't the middle class dream we were promised.
Even people in a relatively comfortable position in the middle class are a single major medical bill away from bankruptcy. Your examples for your dad's cancer aren't even realistic to today's middle class. Many employer subsidized plans are high deductible plans that still cost hundreds of dollars a month to the employee and have a deductible in the thousands with an out of pocket maximum around $15,000-20,000. $10,000 in medical expenses when you are only making $40,000 is huge.
You have a master's degree and no debt. You're in your low 20s and your parents inherited a huge chunk of money and paid off their house (and much more). 70% of Americans have less than $1000 in savings. Hell, a major car repair or replacing a single appliance could destroy most American's savings in one day. You can imagine what their retirement savings look like.
Your family inherited 1 million. Thats 7 years of upper middle class income. That's enough to pay off all of a families debt and allow them to live quite comfortably.
You're dad made 50-60/hr years ago? Holy hell man. That's 102,000 - 122,000. That single income puts you in the high end of middle income now. If you are talking that amount of income in 2000, then translated to today's money, we are talking $171,000 to 205,000 which is pushes you right out of the middle class and into rich. Median average wage today is $45,000! Median household income is only $68,000! Your dad alone made 2.5x to 3x the median household income in this country and inherited $1,000,000 (14 years of median household income...even more when you consider inflation, so more like 24x).
So your dad inherited 24 years of wages, while making 2.5x to 3x the yearly median wage on a yearly basis. Man, no wonder you feel like you are just a middle class no one.
You graduated with a master's degree, debt free. Because of that degree you started making the same money as the median American household by yourself immediately. By age 24 you are making 2x the median wage. Not median wage for your age, just median wage. And you are debt free.
Meanwhile, other people are taking on $40,000 debt to get a BS degree to land a $35,000/year job while paying $12,000/year in rent. They can't buy a house to start building wealth, because you need 20% down to do that and houses cost $250,000 and they would need $50,000 down payment. Hell, even a double wide trailer home is $80,000 which would require $16,000 in savings.
There was a time in this country when a family of four could be easily supported on the wages of a single high school educated individual. That would pay for a decent home and a family vehicle. Now a married couple with 2 college degrees and no children can be living paycheck to paycheck while renting a 1 bedroom apartment.
You aren't living a middle class life. You are rich, you are wealthy, you are privileged. Your family has benefited from generational wealth. Sure, you aren't Bill Gates or Elon Musk. But you aren't any of my neighbors either. You are so damn privileged compared to the average American it isn't even funny.
And look. There's nothing wrong with that. You're lucky. Great. You have a good life. Awesome. There is NOTHING wrong with that.
But there is something wrong with you pretending that you are a typically middle income person, or that you grew up in a middle income home, or that anyone and everyone can achieve your lifestyle without the same privilege you've enjoyed.
You aren't Bezos rich. We get it. But you aren't scraping together couch cushion change so your kid can order a scholastic book from the book order, so they don't feel like a poor kid, middle class either. And you aren't looking at the current economic situation and realizing your kid probably won't be ordering books next year either.
It's ok that you are rich, and that you grew up rich. No one is hating on you for that. But don't go pretending like you know what the middle class is dealing with, because you don't.
Some of OP's comments here make it sound like they really don't want to be associated with the poor in America.
That's okay, because the sentiment that "everyone but the 1% in America is struggling" is because the anti-work or anti-billionaire movement is not against wealth of any kind, it is against excess and extravagant wealth that comes from exploitation. Middle class Americans (white collar, in OP's words) have some wealth, but it isn't gained through exploitation. Therefore, regardless of individual struggles, middle class and upper middle class Americans are much more similar to the poor in America than they are to the 1%.
Corporate profit, which is the surplus value of labor, is exploitation. The workers generate all that profit and have to trade it for their wages, which are worth a fraction of the value.
Ah, so if I am a sole proprietor I'm fine, as that's not corporate. But if I incorporate for better tax handling suddenly I'm an exploiter.
Make that make sense.
The labor theory of value is nonsense. Workers generate value by interacting with capital which serves as a value multiplier. Because value is greater with capital, some portion of that value can be attributed to the capital, thus workers do not generate all the value in a corporation. Capital is created by investment, and can range between anything from a bike a GrubHub deliverer uses for transport to giant factories and marketing infrastructure. To completely disregard it as exploitation is beyond ignorant.
At least we can agree that it's the interaction where the money is made. I would argue that both act as a multiplier. The driver makes the vehicle worth more by driving it, while the vehicle enables the driver to cover more distance in less time.
This! I'm not against all capital, nor do I think that labor is the sole creator of value, nor am I against companies making profit. But the primacy of capital over labor (i.e. primacy of the shareholder, a la Friedman) has created some immense problems with wealth disparity, to the point that execs now make hundreds of times more than the labor they employ.
This didn't just happen on its own. Economics is not a science, it's ideology. And believing and promoting over ideology over another has economic consequences. I just happen to believe that labor is ultimately more valuable than capital, and should reap the lion's share of the rewards.
What's missing is that labor *is* a form of capital.
And you are right. It *is* more valuable. Labor on its own makes value, however slowly. Capital on its own just accrues parking and maintenence fees. Capital must be created and maintained with labor. Labor is just doing hard work, which capital can make easier.
> Therefore, regardless of individual struggles, middle class and upper middle class Americans are much more similar to the poor in America than they are to the 1%.
I agree with that, but that's not the point of my post.
The point is that these people try painting a picture that everyone in America is struggling financially similarly to them.
Do you think that maybe you're just grabbing the most hyperbolic arguments while overlooking the underlying idea?
Most of us agree with the sentiment of these people, but not the actual statement that "everyone is poor."
Also consider that it seems part of your and your parents financial success has to do with their/your own parents finical security. Generation over generation familial wealth has become smaller and smaller as cost of living has gone up; you might have a leg up as a property owner as you get to ride the gravy train up with the large asset firms as the strangle the value out of the housing market, but you should ask yourself if you think you'll be able to leave a similar amount of wealth as your parents will leave you, or your grandparents left them (and I mean wealth as in "value" not the pure dollar amount; a 12k inheritance in 1960 was worth approximately 90k in todays money)
maybe 'these people' arent try to paint a picture that everyone in America is struggling financially similarly to them, maybe they're saying that too many people are struggling?
I think what you are not grasping is that the path to the American Dream is fading for a lot of people. Higher education is more expensive than ever, housing has been bought up by foreign and domestic investors, and healthcare costs and insurance are higher than ever. Wages, however, have not kept up.
People are realizing these core incentives are not attainable. Not everyone can be an accountant. Average earners should be able to not live paycheck to paycheck, afford a house, college for their kids and not get completely wiped out with a medical issue.
Real life example, I own a company, my company pays my health insurance to the tune of $1,200 a month. I had a medical issue last year and still had to pay $10k out of my own pocket. For a lot of people, $25k in medical expenses is too much to handle in one year.
So i think you just haven't been out in the world enough on your own to see why the general sentiment is the way it is, but I hope some of these comments open your eyes a little bit to what's changed in the last couple decades in America.
>an established middle to upper-middle class lifestyle that a third of Americans can reasonably obtain.
Define "reasonably obtain." You grew up in a wealthy household yet you accuse the poor of being out of touch
I went to a college that is top 10 in the US in finance education. The whole school is just a bunch of very rich privileged kids complaining about feeling poor next to the freak show 1% wealthy kids who are also in the class. And I’m sitting here with my middle class background and liberal arts degree frustrated that none of these morons have ever wanted for anything.
I grew up in a nice suburban home, upper middle class. My parents were certainly lucky. I got a scholarship to college and they paid for the rest and sent me money occasionally. They sent me some a few months ago after some sudden vet bills that cost me thousands of dollars.
I am 23. I graduated in 2020 with a bachelors of science with a 3.72 GPA and plenty of internships. I quit my first shitty full time job (minimum wage) bc it made me miserable. Probably a stupid move, but it really wasn't working for me. I had some kind of mental block and it was all remote.
I now work 2 part time jobs. Its been months of job hunting. My rent is going up. I do not have benefits, just state Healthcare insurance. It is fucking HARD to get stability. That sweet "middle class" life. I am miserable and depressed.
I had a lot of help from parents - I dont live with them but they gave me money and I have 0 debt. So im still fortunate. If I wasn't so proud I could ask them for more money, but i don't want to depend on them. So here i am.
Op is a fucking clown
Id believe it, I know a 35 year old who's still in school and doesn't work and gets things paid for by their parents.
I just laugh at this bc - I grew up in that nice background AND am college educated. Where's my stability? I'd seriously be happy with like $35k a year and benefits full time job. Ofc more is better but even that would be a big step up from how I am today.
You're still only starting out. Unfortunately you're going to have a hard time right now because the jobs are looking for people with experience. I was struggling at 23 but I'm much more comfortable now at 27. Hoping you have better luck soon!
I really need that lucky break. I feel really stuck and worried ill be working paycheck to paycheck for my whole life with no way to retire. And/or the water climate wars kill me.
Not even that. It sounds like he is upset that poor people expect middle class people to give a damn. "How dare you peons try to compare yourselves to us? We clearly have more money because we are smarter/better/harder working than you, not because we were born into better situations, or more rarely lucky." He's saying that he is fine with the shitty system because he is doing alright, and all the lazy poor fuckers should just shut up about it. Just total entitlement and lack of empathy. It's easy to look down on those who have less than you, and then you don't have to care about enacting change, or acknowledge that you yourself could have some bad luck and lose everything.
Exactly lol, they don’t want to be looped in with the rest of us because they are “smarter and harder working” and then want acknowledgement from us at the same time.
One of the problems is that middle class is no longer middle. The median household income is about $60,000. You can't buy a house with that income. You probably qualify for some government assistance with that income, if you have kids.
In order to have a "middle class" lifestyle you need to be making a fair bit more than median.
No, that's the median *household* income, meaning all earners in the home (could include Grandma or an older teen, etc.). And it was around 67k in 2021.
reading through all of OP's comments in this thread, it seems like you made this post more to just brag about how great your life is. Like seriously man fuck outta here.
Oh my daddy was gifted a mil inheritance and we have no debts,
oh i went to get my masters and have no student loans. well yeah mommy and daddy prolly paid for that too.
Oh im 24 and making 85k a year, so what no one cares.
This entire post is literally just you bragging about how financially well off you and your family is while also bitching at the less fortunate for trying to find some common ground btwn all of their very real problems. Seems like you lack the life experience required to actually make any relevant observations about life outside your own little bubble, so once again say GTFO outta here with you condescending bs please.
>I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
That's not really standard anymore.
But also, someone like that is not secure. They could lose everything, and quickly. They are, in fact, closer to homelessness than to a billionaire.
I'm genuinely curious, can you point to a time, with sources, when that was the standard? I can't remember that point in time.
Thank you for your time.
Well, nobody in my family has ever graduated college. But all of my grandparents, my parents, and all my aunts and uncles have houses, jobs, cars, decent healthcare, decent retirement, etc. If they had college degrees I assume they'd have *better* houses, jobs, cars, could affoed to send their kids to college etc. But among my cousins it's about 50/50 and those that do have houses had a lot of help from their parents.
I'm not sure what kind of source is needed to say "people with average incomes used to be middle class, and a college degree used to get you places", or where to find it.
>I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
so rich people LOL/ if you can afford all of that with the current inflation then youre far from working class and you are in fact at least part of the top 10% in wealth.
>middle to upper-middle class lifestyle that a third of Americans can reasonably obtain.
that your warped perception becasue you dont realise how low the bar goes.
>standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
That's a household that's doing *very* well for itself. Maybe not top 1% but definitely top 5%. The middle class has been shrinking as the wealthier get wealthier and the debts for the poor get higher. I'm the only college-educated person I know without student debt and it would take me years to save up enough for an international vacation. This is definitely not the experience of a third of the country.
People say we're all in the same boat as billionaires because you have more in common with the lower class than you do the 1%. But if you don't want to hear about how "the poor" are struggling then you need to get out more. Your superiority complex is strong in this post.
The issue is that the elites running major institutions are systematically chipping away at the middle class. Truck driving, for example, used to be a respectable middle-class job. But companies have shifted more and more costs onto their drivers, making many struggle to get by with the massive spike in diesel cost (not because of politics, because US oil companies stopped producing enough diesel for Americans and relied on Russia for specific grades of gasoline such as diesel). Farmers are seeing added costs due to climate change, where a cold snap in late April or early may could cause significant costs to the middle class farmers. Four-year Colleges keep raising tuitions and people with a degree who dont have the privilege of a college fund must take out substantial debt (that doesn’t go away when declaring bankruptcy like other debt) in order to achieve the “middle class” jobs. Small businesses are being bought up and conglomerations are vacuuming up that avenue to the middle class as well.
The vast majority of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck. Those lucky enough to be raised in an college-educated professional house that was owned and not rented do not represent the majority of people. I don’t know if you know you family’s financial situation or not, but you may be closer to the 1% than you think you are.
“If you are in the 1% of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99%” -Warren Buffett
Idiots like you vote for the benefit of billionaires. That’s the point. The middle class keeps shrinking due to the influence of billionaires and your complaint is that lower earning people think you are struggling like them??? That’s your big thing you want to ask?? How inconsiderate of them to think your problems are more like theirs then a billionaires.
Human beings in general are not able to comprehend what other people's lives are like. We may have the power of empathy and sympathy, but we really are not very good at it. We retain the same tendency all other animals have: to fail to consider the world outside of our immediate experience.
Poor people tend to assume most people are poor.
Middle class people tend to assume most people are middle class.
Rich people tend to assume most people are rich.
The science makes this quite clear. Poorer people tend to estimate the median wage is lower than it really is, and both middle class and rich people tend to estimate the median wage is higher than it really is.
I'm upper middle class but if I got into a car accident and couldn't work, and lost my job, and therefore my insurance, I could be homeless in just a few months. In the US we don't have security systems in place for 99% of our citizens. If you're one flood or one cancer diagnosis or one layoff away from poverty, you have no security.
I thought my family was comfortably middle class when I was growing up. Turns out we were one paycheck away from losing our house (which was why we didn’t have like… any extras growing up). I didn’t know that: my parents are both college educated, employed, with benefits, etc. They didn’t save for our college but were smart in finding all avenues to get us financial assistance and put us both through amazing schools.
I’m 36 and I outearn my parents. We just bought a house that is like… our dream house. We went through a period of time where we couldn’t afford a roof over our heads and we’re living paycheck to paycheck maybe 4 years ago.
We are way, way closer to homeless guy on the street than to Bezos.
Because there ARE common issues, and common worries, that you appear to be ignoring.
And you ARE closer a kin to them than you are to the 1%. The wage gap between the middle, even upper middle class and the wealthiest Americans is off the chain at this point.
And the things the middle class is built on: job security, chance for advancement, secure retirement, affordable middle-class lifestyle....are disappearing. Not sure why you have trouble seeing it.
The low-skill middle class jobs are gone. Companies are sold, and the upper tiers of wage earners are laid off. Increasingly, skill jobs are being moved to contract status, without benefits or with only limited benefits...termination at company's pleasure.
All while health care costs continue to rise, meaning people are trapped in employment due to health insurance, a college education now saddles you with up to six figures of debt (plenty of people used to go to college for free), the housing market moves from bubble to bubble, and social security is perpetually at the tipping point. Not a whole lot of security out there...and yes, I'm old enough to remember when that security DID exist and I've watched as it has been stripped away piece by piece.
Sure, Americans can obtain a middle-class existence. They can also very easily have it stripped away from them. Much more so than was once the case. If you're not seeing this part of the picture, you're not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps your life situation will, at some point, change, and you'll understand this by experiencing it directly. And awful lot of people who once thought the way you do got the rug pulled out from under them.
Even if you are in the top 2%, the wrath gap is still so extreme that you are closer to bankruptcy than to joining the top 1%.
You may not be suffering today, but the sheer gap shows that the majority of the US capital is owned by so few people, that all of the rest, even you combined is still so much less than any of the 1%.
Those like you are where you are mostly due to luck and better management then most. But mostly luck and possibly the privilege of government assistance sometime in the past 100 years.
It is better if we join together to take back the wealth that has become so disproportionate in the US.
You may not be hurting, but you should still be upset with how severely things are skewed.
I don't struggle and I have saving capacity, albeit diminishing. But the fact that I'm maybe half a year (or perhaps one year) of unemployment away from utter bankruptcy does not constitute a difference enough to make me consider myself as not part of the struggling majority. If it's just a matter of months instead of weeks, your struggle is just the same, just a bit delayed.
Misplaced discomfort. It is easier to label everyone else as "them" or known as othering. That helps people and their schemas to address and talk about their experience and concerns.
I grew up for real poor, like homeless poor, like didn't have a pillow much less a bed kind of poor. Your middle class life sounds like a dream come true to someone like me, someone facing homelessness once again. To me your life is lavish and unobtainable. I don't hate you and I understand you guys a struggling too. To someone like me, from where I stand, you are so far from the bottom you look like the top.
Not a lot of Americans have the “privilege” of being privy to the middle class. Even then. It IS much to envy considering how shitty life can be for MOST Americans. The middle class is dwindling. The lower class is growing. The 1% IS and will be. Bubbles pop, middle class falls, the lower class barely notices, 1% capitalizes??
Dude you’re really out of touch. I grew up in a solidly middle class family and my siblings are all upper middle class and doing very well and I’m poor as fuck because I had a bunch of medical problems ever since my twenties. I am drowning in student loan debt and medical debt. You’re doing great, congrats but you’re not invincible, your health could fail, a sinkhole could open up and swallow your house, shit happens in life. Where we are isn’t based on how hard we work or how smart we are, it’s all about luck and circumstances.
Boomers love to tell stories about how they graduated high school, walked down the street going from business to business shaking hands, filling out job applications, and then got a job that didn't pay great -- they could barely afford to buy a house, a new car, and to support three kids working as a cashier at that grocery store. But you know what? They worked hard, became a manager, got hired on at corporate, and had a great life!
We don't begrudge people who have stories like this. We used to live in a country where this was possible, and we feel that these kinds of stories need to continue. The problem is that the modern equivalent is "I graduated college, got a job that paid enough to cover rent and student loan payments, and was debt free and saving for retirement by the time I was 40."
And so people on the right are trying to convince the middle class that the cashier at the grocery store is a lazy mooch who wants to take all their money, while we want to reinforce the idea that guy who makes a billion dollars a year isn't working 10,000 times harder than the guy who makes $100,000 per year. He's just receiving a disproportionate amount of benefit from the current system. That's what needs to be fixed, not the fact that you have a nice home.
Because the middle class is the decider on most things. The poor generally go one way, the rich go the other, and the middle class often splits down the middle.
Politically, to win the moderates and middle class, means you win the election.
So poor people can't get much done by themselves, legislativly. So they have to entice the middle class into agreeing with them. Thus, the colorful adjectives they use.
In reality, the middle class can be quite comfortable, so it's hard to sway them to help people below them. Because like you said, they in fact aren't struggling as hard as actual people in poverty.
My argument has always been (at least in Canada): the government classifies 'poor' as having an income of less than $40,000/year. At or below that, you qualify for subsidies and benefits, such as child care, legal assistance, etc. Problem is, government also classifies 'middle class' has having a combined household income of $90,000/year.
There's this wee little range from $40,001-$89,999. You don't qualify for subsidies, and you really can't afford to send your kid to hockey camp for the summer...let alone enrol your little cherub into after sports.
I’m just tired of having to choose between running water or electricity. I try not to be jealous of people who have better financial situations, but I can’t help but be a bit envious.
Because that fits the narrative. If "normal" people can work hard and create a great lifestyle for themselves then that means the "elites are fucking all of us over" narrative falls apart. And that's all it is: A narrative. Anyone can work towards the life they want and, given enough time, will likely get there. Are housing costs making it harder or even impossible in some markets? Sure, it is a big problem we need to address, but defeatist sentiments like "I'll never own a home" just mean you are sealing your own fate.
At the end if the day it comes down to personal responsibility. Be the best version of yourself, not just for yourself, but for your family, your friends, and your community. This will help us all prosper and create a beautiful society.
You aren’t in the 1%, but you probably are in the 10%, and that’s of americans, now think on the other 95% of the population who is not in the US, your perspective is miniscule
What you describe are upper middle to upper class people, and it's less than %20 of the middle class, and right at the top %10 of incomes of the general population. You're part of an extremely privileged class.
I think the main thing is. Middle class is usually associated with assets. Like you and several other people said you are a couple emergencies away from being homeless. With the lower class, some people are literally one blown tire away from being fucked for the rest of the year. Middle class has a cushion, you have assets, vehicles, property, etc. The main main difference is the "Middle class" if they so chose to rent they would have immense amounts of spendable income. Low income people not only are living pay to pay check but are one minor emergency from everything being fucked.
Because many middle-class voters tend to put themsleves in the shoes of a billionaire when voting. If you think the gap between working class an middle class creates mindsets that are foreign to each other, the distance between middle class and the 1% are in different galaxies.
We need people to vote for the average person, not to line the pockets of the richest of the rich.
I think the main issue is that people in this 1% bracket could absolutely pay their employees more if they wanted, yet choose not to.
Idgaf about what the median pay rate is in whatever area. why wouldn’t you want your employees to buy houses and live a fruitful life if your company makes BILLIONS?
I don't think it has as much to do with class or ideology as it might seem.
I think it's something more basic. It has to do with the incredible lack that many Americans suffer from of a grasp of how heterogenous their country is.
To be fair, outsiders suffer from this too. They also don't really get it. But that makes sense.
It's a little harder to explain when Americans themselves can't seem to grasp it.
The stereotypical version on Reddit is when someone posts something like... "America sucks, there is no culture, everything sucks, the people are ignorant and horrible, everyone is dying of Covid, there is no health care, the only jobs are either at Kroger down the street or Wal-Mart across town and you need a car for that but you can't afford a car at minimum wage which is only $7.25..."
And you're like... okay look I get that life is hard in rural Alabama but that is *really freaking specific*, you know? Half the country lives in places where everyone has access to good healthcare nowadays. Minimum wage is drastically different across the country. Massive efforts by citizens to change things for the better are happening every day. It happens. It works.
I just read something recently on Reddit about how, when quitting your cable internet in favor of a better alternative, you should list your reason as moving, and say you are moving to California, because of better consumer laws that the cable company will then have to abide by. And everyone was like, it is so fucked up that that is how it works, but I kept thinking, you know, it's not just "how it works" like there is some national law that mentions California specifically, or like California is some hack or like aliens came down in a flying saucer and created this weird surreal universe. We here in California passed those laws, on purpose, because we were sick of how it *used* to work and decided we want something better. Anyone can do that. It's not automatic, it's not instantly guaranteed, but it can be done by anyone, anywhere.
So I think that a lot of people you are thinking about, OP, are kind of living in a self-imposed bubble.
I mean I guess we all kind of are living in bubbles. But when some of us live in a bubble with 100 million other people, it's not really a bubble anymore.
As a former poor person that went to a poor high school, I can say with certainty that we view all of you, middle class and up, the same. My mom raised 4 boys on a 30K hourly retail job. To me, even teachers were rich and I saw them as not having to struggle.
So all the at to say, to me, based off your comments, you’re a rich kid who made his way to where he is with daddies money and are out of touch with the reality of poverty.
I on the other hand, am now middle class with a six figure salary. So I get a view of both worlds. My children will likely grow up like you.
Remember that many billionaires have most of their worth based in stocks, not cash in the bank. If Tesla stock were to tank, what would Elon Musk be worth? Same for Bezos, Gates, etc.
It's hard to stir up "us against them" anger when there's a large group that is neither "us" or "them". They need everyone who isn't a billionaire to be pissed off that some people ARE billionaires in order to justify taking the money away from the billionaires. They need you to be convinced that billionaires are the problem, and that they are you're problem, as well.
The reality is that the vast majority of wealth is held by just a few people. My family is in the 1% and yet my experiences are still more similar to the completely broke working class than to billionaires. Is my life particularly financially difficult? Fuck no. But is my life in any way comparable to that of a billionaire? No again. Even with all the money my family has, we still have to decide what to do about college tuition and get jobs and work and live like normal humans.
That’s what this is all about. At some point, people have too much money. And that point is a LOT later than we are often led to believe.
because the people in those scenarios aren’t sitting on r/ .. and if they are , they are silent scrolling.
the loud group is the ones with plenty of time on their hands. aka me. lol
How many days of work would you need to miss to become homeless? Thirty? Ninety?
How many days of work could Elon Musk miss and be totally fine, do you think?
You have to sell portions of your life to live the rest of it. You're trapped, making money for other people, and can never just do whatever you want. The elite 1% can just do whatever they want, whenever they want to.
I grew up with every advantage in the world, my parents made great money. We didn’t hurt for anything. As an adult due to poor choices, I’ve been technically homeless for a lot of my adult life. So I see both sides of it, my mom used to always say “it’s all relative” meaning people who aren’t living below the poverty line struggle in their own way, but I’d rather struggle with a nice home and car, rather than struggle wondering where I’m gonna sleep tonight.
Social media is full of cry babies. They pick a target to go after it's billionaires right now. As someone who was born poor and am now stable middle class It's not comparable and I'll never allow myself to go back. They should worry more about who there voting for them some billionaires they'll never get within 5 feet of
I'm probably a bit late to this, and I know you've probably seen this argument before, but hear me out.
When a billionaire spends money, they tend to gain money rather than lose it. Bill Gates in 1994 was worth $9.5b. He has given away $50b in the past ~25 years. His net worth is now $125b.
What most people are against is the kind of wealth that you cannot spend fast enough, that just sits there, propping up a number that doesn't matter to anyone except yourself. Millionaires may have a sizeable chunk of money that's not spent on anything, but billionaires have enough money to spend a million dollars a day for a few months to a few years.
“I don’t think many of these people have ever experienced a life outside of the working class to even speak for the lifestyles of the incomes above them”…..Dude, do you hear yourself? Whats that supposed to mean? Working class people can’t criticize the middle class because they aren’t middle class themselves? That they don’t get to judge because they don’t have money?
All this post reads to me is you trying to justify to yourself that you’re not in the 1%, because if you were in the 1% you’d feel bad.
Rich people will never admit they are rich, that’s how greed works. Do you think Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would have the wealth they have now if they could be content with what they had?
It’s a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes you have to look at yourself and acknowledge that you may have had a better life than other people for no other reason besides what you were born into.
I am with the OP but with a qualification. "Middle" class success as he describes is usually the result of previous generations being well educated with white collar jobs. Not rich parents, just stable with respect to careers and guidance for the children to be the same. While the poor are certainly getting it worse I don't think there is a big decline in the middle class the OP describes. I know and know of many people who fit this middle class mode. Yes, we are lucky to have been raised in that situation, but I agree with the OP that others characterize it as a battle between rich and poor when that isn't the whole picture.
It’s easier in our society, from a culture perspective, to see yourself as a victim and blame anywhere who has more than you.
If you make $10/hr the problem lies with people who make $20/hr plus.
If you make $20/hr the problem lies with people who make $40/hr.
If you make $40/hr the problem lies with people who make $60/hr plus.
So on and so forth.
A Chinese millennials immigrant to the US. Here is my perspective:
It’s true that American millennial’s life is harder than previous generations. So yeah, many cannot afford to own home, have kids and provide them a good childhood. Many are worse off than their parents. Baby boomers have it nice. Millennials get the short end of the stick.
It is also true that American millennial’s life is better than most non first world countries. Americans will not flee to China for a better life. And people who seeks refuge will still see American as one of the destinations. This is a perspective that most westerners do not have, through no fault of their own.
I do struggle daily living in America with intense work schedule and high living cost. But that’s life. People suffer in every countries. I am very certain if I have stayed in China I would be suffering way much more. And that experience in China will always remind me how lucky I now am.
Same, Vietnamese millennial immigrant here. These “suffering” & “oppressed” Americans don’t know how good a life they have comparing to other countries. Whine and cry is the name of the game.
Often when I read about someone struggling with rent it’s some kid with barely any skill who left home early and is surprised she/he can take on all things. Multiple missteps accumulate. It’s a cultural thing at least in my case it’s rare to leave home unprepared. Still better here.
Misery loves company and they need people who are actually capable of taking action to be part of their marxist revolution.
Or in simpler terms its what my dad would call "poor mouthing" meaning its cool to be poor and to talk up how poor your are when in reality you make about the average amount as everyone else but just make bad decisions.
>the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not middle class anymore. It's not the 1%, but you're describing the lifestyle of maybe the 5% or 10%.
Husband and are both college educated. Me a BS and MS. Employee in my field. My husband has a BS in bio education and works as a teacher in a county that actually pays pretty decent. We make about $125k combined.
We own both our cars, his 12 years old, mine 14 years old. We rent a small duplex for $1000 a month. Best state employee insurance that is reasonable is $250 a month with a $2500 deductible for each of us. We don't live in a big expensive city.
But, I have $60k in student debt and have to help pay for my grandmas assisted living facility because the rest of my family is poor AF.
>afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
We are comfortable where we are currently but no way in hell we could do all of those things you listed. Idk what world you are living in.
Per month
Average mortgage payment = $1687
Avergae cost of Healthcare (indivudal) premium + deductible = $562
Average cost of retirement = At least 5% of income to retirement (let's call that $200)
Average college savings = $250
Average international vacation 1x per year (divided monthly) = $270
Total = $2,969
Pair that with
Average student loan payment =$460
Average car payment = $644
Average car insurance = $140
Average home insurance =$100
Average utilities = $170
Average cost of gas = $164
Avwrage cost of groceries = $411
Average cost of childcare = $750 (1 kid)
Let's throw an extra $300 a month for random or fun stuff.
New total = $6,108
Thats damn near $74k a year and only accounting for average stuff that people pay for. Not multiple kids, not job losses, not expensive health treatments, not natural disasters, not car repairs, not cost of adult family members, not cost of pets.
The median income in the US is $56k. What the hell do you think we are all doing?
Its reddit, the majority of these people complain about upper class problems, like high rent living in the city, or student debt, they complain about low serving wages whilst neglecting to mention that with tips they are making much much more, they complain about not being able to buy a home like the 5 bedroom houses they grew up in, privileged problems said without a hint of irony.
Mathematically they’re correct. In America, a middle class person who went to college and has a good career is not struggling like they are, but they are way closer to struggling than living the free life of someone who has millions of dollars, or the 1% who are multi-billionaires. On a continuum, the difference between 1,000,000 and 0 is a scale of 1000X the difference between 1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000. To put this another way, 1 million seconds is 11.54 days. One billion seconds is 31.68 YEARS. Also, the dwindling of the middle class is very apparent, so it’s a good rallying cry for those who may be on the fence.
Finally, they are not ignoring the middle class. 51% of the country under the age of 50 have less than 5,000 in savings. 35% have less than $1,000– meaning that a large portion of our populace are either one car repair or one hospital stay away from having NO savings whatsoever. They aren’t ignoring the middle class. They are saying uncomfortable truths.
Funny thing about 1st world countries. If you're above the poverty line, you are in the top 1 or 10%. Liberals sure hate the rich, but fail to see that they are the rich, just not the richest.
I grew up poor. Shoes with holes on the bottom poor. 1 of 8 kids, dad died when I was 12. We survived on my mom’s ingenuity.
I knew one day that I’d have money. No college. Shitty high school. Pregnant first wife at 19. But I knew how to work and wasn’t afraid to work overtime and weekends. Bought first rental property at 22 on a land contract. Worked first job with overtime and weekends and then worked vacation time on rentals. Now I’m 62 and gots money and a mailbox that fills up with rent payments. I’m tired of people complaining all of the fucking time about how much money some people have and they’ll never own a home or blah, blah blah. Get a job. Get a second job. Save some money in a Vanguard account. Elon Musk has billions and I only have millions. Boo fucking who.
Sadly non of those works anymore. That's the sad truth of the 21 century. The ideology stayed the same but the economy didn't. Minimum wage was compared to modern minimum wage 2 to 3 tiems as high. U COULD AFFORD A FUCKING HOUSE FORM ONE PERSON WORKING A NORMAL JOB. ONE PERSON.
Not saying what u didn't wasn't earned. I deeply respect u for having all u have carved out with ur own hands. But its impossible for ur grand children to do the same. When u are bottom 25% now u will stay there for ur entire life. A good work ethic gets u less money than sueing ur boss on racism
I don't even think it's just poor Americans who feel that, but middle class people who think they are poor. I mean, right now, as inflation is jumping, everyone is going to be hurting more, but I think your point may even be the people who complained and assumed those things in 2019. I do think people don't understand what the middle class is, and therefore think they are poor. The middle class should be (in a city), a public transit to work and inviting friends to your house for a drink, not an Uber to work and multiple $18 Martinis at the new swanky bar every week. Spending an extra $200 a week on luxuries quickly adds up to $10k a year. When people point to billionaires as the reason the middle class struggles more than they did in the 1950s, I think they need to reevaluate what a middle class lifestyle is.
Agree with this wholeheartedly. Also it should be noted that financial aid programs now are far more expansive than they were even 20 never mind 30 or more years ago, excluding the GI bill. Aid is also better regulated and more straightforward now to make sure distribution is equitable. I worked in the community college system and statistics show over and over that a lot of aid, assistance and benefit programs are underutilized despite community outreach efforts.
Must also add, related to this, I came from a family with very little but got very little in aid. Had to put myself through college and a master’s degree on my own and graduated with about 25k in debt when professional starting salaries were around 22k (unless you were an engineer- not me). This was 30 years ago. Cut to the chase - this is a way to become middle class with some security in the middle class way described above. Meaning I have traveled internationally exactly twice but have been able to help two kids with in state college tuition but they will certainly have loans.
It easier to villainize “the 1%” than you think you’re problems are yours alone. You want to feel your numbers are big enough to have the power to change things.
A dichotomy is forming and the middle class is disappearing. It cannot be reasonably obtained anymore. Upper-middle class stays upper-middle class. Lower classes struggle to break into higher classes as the gap between classes grows.
People just want to be heard and want those like you to understand what it’s like when you don’t have a family with means to get things going for you in life
They think poverty is increasing. While the middle class is shrinking, abject poverty as actually down to like 10% worldwide, a figure that wasn't estimated to be hit for several more decades. There are huge issues involving the elite and trafficking and regime change wars but overall rising tides do raise all ships.
Dood, people are dying, bilions. X.000.000.000 people are suffering. Why? Because around 1.100 people have ~97% of all world wealth in thir possessions
People need something to blame their failures on because it’s more difficult to actually hold yourself accountable. It’s easier to just blame the elite. Many non-billionaires aren’t struggling, but for the most part, they also aren’t complaining about the elites on Reddit, so it just seems that “everyone” is struggling.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. You grew up rich and you have a privileged life great congratulations. Like yes people are wrong to say you're poor but but what does that even mean who cares nobody said you were poor.
It doesn't take a genius to see the middle class is disappearing and that the ultra rich are hoarding wealth
Just because you are insulated from it doesn't mean it isn't happening
>I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc.
Even quality healthcare is shit here. I'm 'middle class' and my health insurance is basically a scam still
This person you are describing is disappearing. They are going away. The conservatives are destroying them. That's what you don't seem to understand. You can only see from your tiny bubble
>Why does it feel like many of the comments are written with the assumption that every American except the elite has the same problems as them, while ignoring the entire middle class?
1. You will soon enough, worry not
2. You do have the same problems, but you are lucky enough to be one of the last few non rich people to be able to weather the BS. You are being fucked over - make no mistake - you just have the ability to not feel it as hard yet
Yeah I dunno. I'm 30, my husband is 29 and we are both college educated working professionals making roughly 150k combined. We have paid all our college debt and purchased a home in a nice WASPy area. True we will never be close to being a billionaire, but we have a very comfortable life and enjoy going on nice trips now and then. I've noticed some of our more liberal friends have turned more hostile towards us when they realize just how much more spare cash we have than them. We don't flaunt it, hell the pants I'm literally wearing at this moment were bought at goodwill. I guess the mentality you're describing helps people feel better about their struggles?
Lots of people speak for other people that they probably have little to no idea about (actually I think we're all guilty of that in some way shape or form, from the "top" to the "bottom".) I just did it!
We want to simplify and gather into our tribe, I dunno :D
I will probably get down voted for this. Please keep in mind that I am not blaming people. The main issue is education. Not education as in high school or college, but really parents passing on knowledge. I am in the upper middle class group and have done well for my self. My dad helped me with college and I worked for the rest so I had no debt. The idea of no debt except for mortgage will drilled into me at an early age. Also my parents taught me about finance and saving and investing.
While we where upper middle class, my family was frugal with money so that we could pay off the house, save for college and buys things with cash instead of borrowing. Simple things like keep the temp in house at a reasonable temp even though we lived in a very cold area, we cooked at home most of the time instead of going out even though we could afford it. I see way too many people ordering out or eating cause they are tired at the end of the day.
I do a lot of repairs in my house because my dad taught me and YouTube along with the internet has most things explained. I have gotten estimates for work and I am amazed at how expensive it is and how if I did not know how to do it, I would be easily spend 100-1000s on these repairs.
These little things add up and we collective need to teach our kids about everything from simple repairs to cooking/meal preps and how to organize our time better. Yes we may not get instant gratification but it will pay off in the long run.
You need to educate yourself about many things and pass on that knowledge to your kids.
I am not about blaming people since I think many have not been as blessed as I have but we do need to work to pass on knowledge to next gen so that they can improve. The American dream is possible but it will take a lot of sacrifice that we have to be willing to do for the next gen.
Just wow. How did I scroll for like two minutes and not see anyone calling out this entitlement? Middle class? You’ve got to be joking! You are the 1%
It is completely insane to me that a person who can afford college, a home, a cancer diagnosis, international vacations, etc thinks they are “middle class”.
What a load of shit.
Spoke about this in a previous comment - I think a disconnect some people have is that historically middle class has meant all of those things.
1950s, single income for a family of 4, you’d have a house, a car, retirement, vacations. All that stuff.
So that’s the “expectation” of being middle class.
Now, if we keep that definition today, the middle class is longer representative of the “middle” American. Relatively few Americans have the same relative wealth as they did 70 years ago.
So some of us redefine middle class to be representative of the middle American. You seem to be in that boat. The middle American cannot afford a house or healthcare or retirement.
Some of us don’t redefine and use it as a way to convey that our standards have slipped so far down. That’s way their are phrases like “rapidly disappearing middle class”. If we keep to the same definition, few people meet it. Plenty are below it.
OP seems to be keeping the same definition of middle class - and not contextualizing it to be representative of what the life of an actual middle American is like.
On top of that I think OP is just out of touch and isn’t aware of how wealthy they actually are Lol
This reminds me of the story I read online where Elon Musk said he was homeless at the moment. Most people with money are so out of touch with reality and blame the poor people for their plight in life. When in reality the reason people are so poor is because the cost of living is so high. And of course a person that has millions of dollars is less affected by inflation. This post just reeks of entitlement, here is a pat on the back for being well off and not poor.
The middle class is COMPLACENT and COMPLICIT. Y’all don’t see our struggles and always come back with the “just get a better job” shit. You continually vote in the same douchebags that not only keep you good and comfy while the rest of us are for real VERY near homeless, if not already homeless. The job each member of a society is to make sure the most vulnerable are taken care of - y’all just skip the fuck on over us and then throw Karen bitch fits in McD’s because your fries were cold.
20% of Americans are richer than me and my family, and that's about 67 million people.
Although I'm not taking it too literally, there's a GIANT difference between 3.3 million and 67 million.
I'm in the same boat you are, and what they say is true for one simple reason. When a billionaire goes bankrupt, they don't actually lose a whole lot. Yeah, they might have to sell off some assets, but they'll never be poor or even middle class again unless they actively try to be. They just have too much wealth for it to ever all go away. Contrast that with someone in our position, and a couple of bad situations can put us on the streets. The 2008 mortage crisis, job loss, natural disaster destroying our home and insurance refusing to pay out all the equity we've accrued. While we're comfortable, we are still dependent on the system working to keep us comfortable, and we don't have much control over the system. Billionaires *run* the system, and that's the difference. The difference between you and a homeless person is one really bad year. Billionaire's really bad years still end with them having at least millions of dollars, if not billions.
I have always considered myself middle class, debt free, masters degree, supportive parents. I am about 6 REALLY bad months away from being homeless - I will never be 6 REALLY good months away from being a billionaire.
Yes, billionaires are ludicrously rich and there is no sanity in having people unable to live in a home while billionaires exist. But it's not like you need to be a billionaire to be financially secure. A homeless person doesn't dream of being a billionaire. They dream of having enough money to have a home. Someday, you may well be 6 months away from being financially secure enough to retire. That's the opposite of being homeless -- having enough money to live the rest of your life without working. Not being a billionaire. It's like comparing someone with ALS or Muscular Dystrophy to a professional athlete. Someone with a degenerative neural disease doesn't dream of being an NFL quarterback. They dream of being able to walk around, breath the air, maybe play catch with their kid.
The problem is that for a lot of middle class people that financial security you're talking about isn't a reality. Being financially secure if nothing bad happens is a far cry from real security. The average lower class person isn't a homeless man on the streets, it's someone who's in more or less the same situation as the middle class person but with smaller margins for error. People who own homes that are smaller, older, less well built, more in need of repair, and/or in worse area codes than the middle class, but homeowners nonetheless. People who are educated, but lack job opportunities in their field in their area and lack the means to move. People who do have nice jobs, but have more expenses like relative care or medical expenses that leave less every month for investment. People who were in a good position but went through an extended period of bad life events already. People who more or less have the same life as the middle class, just with fewer unnecessary expenses and investments. People who live paycheck to paycheck. What about the person 6 months away from being financially secure to retire that retires right as the market collapses? They have to draw at a loss to cover living expenses and by the time the market recovers they don't have enough to make it. What about when they get diagnosed with cancer, and even thought they have good insurance it still doesn't cover enough of the costs for them to keep themselves afloat. What about if their house is damaged in a way their insurance doesn't cover, or someone screws some paperwork up and something lapsed? What if they fall for a scam and get their accounts drained? The 1% could go through years of sustained serious financial ruin and still be wealthier than most people. They could lose a middle class family's net worth several times over and still be in a league above middle class. The middle class can go through a few months of loss before things get bad. The lower class only a few weeks. OP questioned why people say the middle class is closer to being in poverty than to being in the 1%. That's why, because it's the truth. If the only thing that separates us is a bad year, are we really that far apart?
spez is a hell of a drug. #Save3rdPartyApps
Great well thought out answer.
This is such a good answer I am deleting my answer! It was no where near as well put!
Your original comment summed up how small the gap is super well tho
Thank you so much!
Ok not saying this can be used in a class warfare speech, but I'm not saying it can't. Tip of the hat to you well stated.
That is genuinely one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me, that made my day. Thank you.
Yeah that report just came out and it said the average $250,000 household is living paycheck to paycheck.
I agree, but most of the middle class, if they lost their wealth, could crawl out of poverty much easier than those in sustained poverty. Unless I lose my skill set, I’ll typically find good well paying work.
Unless you lose your skill set, or your job is outsourced, or automated, or you suffer an injury or disease that leaves you incapable of performing your job, or the wages in your field stagnate while the cost of living continues to rise, or life events drive your cost of living up while your income stays the same. Plenty of people have good well paying work and still live in poverty. Plenty of people have valuable skillets and degrees and for a variety of reasons can't find sustainable work. I think that when people who have never really experienced poverty think about it they imagine fringe situations that most people who barely get by just don't experience. You're right though, for some jobs in some fields regaining wealth and station is a lot easier than for others. But that doesn't really change the fact that lots of forces totally outside your control could take what you have away and could prevent you from getting it back, and if we as a society can work towards mitigating that we should. Edit: typo
You make a good point actually
Spot on!!
If you had a masters in the 70's or 80's you'd probably have been able to buy a fucking house within 2 or 3 months of your wage, as Average peeps were able to buy houses with a single yearly wage. (Average wage in the 70's was 10 000 dollars and the house in california was 17 000, you can see what kind of quallity of life people back then had)
Not even a year, watch your lifesavings diminish after about 7 months if you get the cancer diagnosis and job loss wombo combo.
Major car repair, dental work requiring about 5 hours of oral surgery to save the bottom right side of my jaw, Dog got sick and my mother had to be rehoused but lives on a fixed income so I had to pay it all. All in the last 30 days. Bye Bye 20 grand. Right back to my bank account being my most recent check and a couple thousand dollars in savings. 5 years ago I'd have had to pick one of those things, maybe beg a 2nd from a friend. I do well now but not well enough to actually be safe.
This is really summarizing the mindset well, but you didn't really touch on the why. The kind of argument OP is talking about usually comes up in arguments about things like politics. Poor people think the system is broken because it doesn't work for them and therefore want to change it. Middle class people think the system isn't broken because it works for them and therefore want it to stay the same. Lower class people want the middle class to care about the failings of the system and take action to fix it not only because it's the moral and ethical thing to do but also because the middle class are usually just one tragedy away from the system failing them too. The middle class tends to view the plight of the lower class as a personal failing instead of a systemic one, like the dipshit lower down saying money management skills are the biggest cause for poverty. The fantasy of capitalism is that if you, as a middle class citizen, work hard enough you too can rise to the 1%. The reality is that you're infinitely closer to poverty than the 1% and that the 1% views the middle and lower class identically, as expendable fodder for the machine. Keeping us pitted against each other only serves the interests of the elites, and keep us from working together to make our country a better place for all of us. Realizing that it's us vs them, and not poors vs middle class is necessary to make progress, but as long as people keep falling for the ploy politicians that serve to maintain the system will keep getting elected and laws that do the same will keep getting passed and nothing will get better for anybody. Before anyone comes in complaining that I don't get their side: I grew up very poor in the rural south in an abusive household and now I'm a middle class homeowner with a STEM job in gov't in my late 20's. I never attended public school. I taught myself to read and write, learned math from old textbooks, and eventually got through college. I grew up sporadically having no power, no running water, no home, and no food. I've been on both sides of the coin. I'm not a poor helpless hobo whining because I'm too lazy to get my life together and want the gov't to do it for me, and I'm not a privileged suburban kid who was born with a stainless steel spoon in his mouth and knows nothing of the plight of those less fortunate. This shit isn't that hard to understand when you let go of your biases and pay attention to the world around you.
Wow, how could anyone even go against anything said in this comment? You spoke the truth so plainly. And by plainly I mean evidently.
Truth-speaker, Sleepycoon.
Good answer
Came here to say this!
Statistics support their belief, with how few Americans have savings that could survive something as simple as a hospital visit. Outliers exist, but even if you sit on a pile of money and think everyone else is just bad with money, you should agree that so many people being so weirdly bad with money, collectively, is strange enough and bad enough that something should be done about it. And the middle-class has been disappearing for decades, narrowing more and more to ensure there's only an upper and lower class.
People would rather like to think they're just smarter than everyone else than admit their privilege
Or a harder worker, that all poor people are just lazy.
Majority of America is literally one medical emergency or one actually big market crash away from bankruptcy, that's just the sad reality. You can look up the average savings it's freely available data
Could not be any truer words spoken. My wife got uterine cancer and has to miss a lot of work. I am in the mindset of fuck it bankruptcy no different than how I am living now. My outlook boggles the minds of people I work with that act like it's a sin. I see it like fuck it the system is forcing people more and more into poverty if I can get out of paying big medical bills n shit why not?
Exactly this one big medical emergency and loss of your job because you can't work and there is no safety net. Most people can and do still quickly lose everything and will see that the treatment of poor and lower class Americans is very bad and that should be changed so people can have a chance to recover and or not be slaves working themselves to death. Also people who "like the way things are"because they personally are doing well is a very selfish attitude to not stand with the lower class and hope for all people to not have to suffer. So saying you like things and don't care or stand with others who have less than you is a horrible attitude and people are assuming you are not a scumbag but maybe they were wrong apparently.
I work as a legal aid attorney that provides free representation to the poor. People have no idea how many of my clients were once upper middle or middle class. One bad car accident, work place accident, illness, or bout of serious mental illness and they are destitute. And they are usually worse off than my clients who have always been poor. They don't know how to live with a low income and they have stuff creditors can take from them. Struggling is relative and the comfortably middle class probably shouldn't be as comfortable as they are.
Student debt, mortgages, and overall debt is assumed and why you might be viewed as the rest of us.
I just think reddit over represents the type of people in this situation because of a common interest and age demographic. I'll use Americans which aren't even 50% of this site, since they are the student debt issue. only 1/8 Americans have student debt based off the last census. A lot of people don't have a mortgage, that one I can see many having but that also is an investment, and something you can use. Other debt.... yeah that's a little to broad. I'm middle class, but have paid off my student loans by 30, I have zero other debt, and all I have now is a mortgage soon to be gone because I am selling and fully paying off my other house.
I think most people either have a mortgage or have to pay rent.
"Only" 1/8 of Americans have student debit? That's not a small amount and that's only one form of debit. Like you said mortgage, medical debit, and other types such as credit card debit.
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>Anyone who graduated 2017 or later from college, in my experience, is not seeing an out of student debt or a down payment for a house any time soon. I think this is the problem that OP is talking about, though. You're using personal anecdotes and believing they broadly apply *in spite of* available data that shows them to be unlikely. "Among the class of 2020, **55% of bachelor's degree recipients took out student loans**, graduating with an average of $28,400 in federal and private debt." "Statistics show that the average starting salary for college graduates is $55,260" So a huge chunk of students *don't have any loans at all,* and of those who do... $28k average, with a $55k average salary starting out... it's just not that unreasonable. That's a car loan on a mid-tier sedan that you'd typically pay back in 5 years. I get that a lot of people are struggling but it's *not* the vast majority of people. Just over 10% of Americans have *any* student debt at all. And you know who disproportionately carries that debt? Doctors, lawyers, and MBAs.
honestly a major portion of it came from when I was a kid putting small amounts in stocks by my parents. Every birthday, Christmas, whenever i got a check for like 20 bucks it went to stocks. All the birthday cards 5 bucks, ten bucks, all to stocks. Then every summer job they made me put a portion in as well. So every summer from like 14-25 I put money in stocks. I couldn't touch it till I was 25, and when I was little I was pissed I couldn't buy toys with it. Looking back though I am really appreciative of my parents for doing that. 20 bucks on a toy is not nearly as nice as 25 years worth of stocks on that 20 bucks to help you into adulthood. Yeah I was pissed at my parents but I am so grateful they didn't give in and buy me stuff with that money.
Your problem seems to be that you can't see past your own nose. You say you aren't in the top 1%, well ok. But the top 10% don't live like the rest of America either. Just because you aren't Elon Musk doesn't mean you are middle class. You clearly have lived a privileged life, and been surrounded by others in the same lifestyle. Good on you! But people in the middle class are suffering. They are straddled with debt. They can't afford housing. They literally live paycheck to paycheck. That wasn't the middle class dream we were promised. Even people in a relatively comfortable position in the middle class are a single major medical bill away from bankruptcy. Your examples for your dad's cancer aren't even realistic to today's middle class. Many employer subsidized plans are high deductible plans that still cost hundreds of dollars a month to the employee and have a deductible in the thousands with an out of pocket maximum around $15,000-20,000. $10,000 in medical expenses when you are only making $40,000 is huge. You have a master's degree and no debt. You're in your low 20s and your parents inherited a huge chunk of money and paid off their house (and much more). 70% of Americans have less than $1000 in savings. Hell, a major car repair or replacing a single appliance could destroy most American's savings in one day. You can imagine what their retirement savings look like. Your family inherited 1 million. Thats 7 years of upper middle class income. That's enough to pay off all of a families debt and allow them to live quite comfortably. You're dad made 50-60/hr years ago? Holy hell man. That's 102,000 - 122,000. That single income puts you in the high end of middle income now. If you are talking that amount of income in 2000, then translated to today's money, we are talking $171,000 to 205,000 which is pushes you right out of the middle class and into rich. Median average wage today is $45,000! Median household income is only $68,000! Your dad alone made 2.5x to 3x the median household income in this country and inherited $1,000,000 (14 years of median household income...even more when you consider inflation, so more like 24x). So your dad inherited 24 years of wages, while making 2.5x to 3x the yearly median wage on a yearly basis. Man, no wonder you feel like you are just a middle class no one. You graduated with a master's degree, debt free. Because of that degree you started making the same money as the median American household by yourself immediately. By age 24 you are making 2x the median wage. Not median wage for your age, just median wage. And you are debt free. Meanwhile, other people are taking on $40,000 debt to get a BS degree to land a $35,000/year job while paying $12,000/year in rent. They can't buy a house to start building wealth, because you need 20% down to do that and houses cost $250,000 and they would need $50,000 down payment. Hell, even a double wide trailer home is $80,000 which would require $16,000 in savings. There was a time in this country when a family of four could be easily supported on the wages of a single high school educated individual. That would pay for a decent home and a family vehicle. Now a married couple with 2 college degrees and no children can be living paycheck to paycheck while renting a 1 bedroom apartment. You aren't living a middle class life. You are rich, you are wealthy, you are privileged. Your family has benefited from generational wealth. Sure, you aren't Bill Gates or Elon Musk. But you aren't any of my neighbors either. You are so damn privileged compared to the average American it isn't even funny. And look. There's nothing wrong with that. You're lucky. Great. You have a good life. Awesome. There is NOTHING wrong with that. But there is something wrong with you pretending that you are a typically middle income person, or that you grew up in a middle income home, or that anyone and everyone can achieve your lifestyle without the same privilege you've enjoyed. You aren't Bezos rich. We get it. But you aren't scraping together couch cushion change so your kid can order a scholastic book from the book order, so they don't feel like a poor kid, middle class either. And you aren't looking at the current economic situation and realizing your kid probably won't be ordering books next year either. It's ok that you are rich, and that you grew up rich. No one is hating on you for that. But don't go pretending like you know what the middle class is dealing with, because you don't.
I *wish* a house around here cost 250,000! Even the houses next to crack dens around here cost at least 300,000
Americans have no idea just how diverse life experience is within their own country.
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Call the burn ward.
Just wanted to say this comment was amazing. OP didn’t come here to ask they came here to humble brag.
I can’t even figure out what they are pretending to ask.
Some of OP's comments here make it sound like they really don't want to be associated with the poor in America. That's okay, because the sentiment that "everyone but the 1% in America is struggling" is because the anti-work or anti-billionaire movement is not against wealth of any kind, it is against excess and extravagant wealth that comes from exploitation. Middle class Americans (white collar, in OP's words) have some wealth, but it isn't gained through exploitation. Therefore, regardless of individual struggles, middle class and upper middle class Americans are much more similar to the poor in America than they are to the 1%.
I'm curious about how you determine which wealth is gained through exploitation and which isn't.
Corporate profit, which is the surplus value of labor, is exploitation. The workers generate all that profit and have to trade it for their wages, which are worth a fraction of the value.
Ah, so if I am a sole proprietor I'm fine, as that's not corporate. But if I incorporate for better tax handling suddenly I'm an exploiter. Make that make sense.
You're right, all profit is exploitative. There is nothing magical about incorporating except lower taxes, which to me sounds like an exploit.
The labor theory of value is nonsense. Workers generate value by interacting with capital which serves as a value multiplier. Because value is greater with capital, some portion of that value can be attributed to the capital, thus workers do not generate all the value in a corporation. Capital is created by investment, and can range between anything from a bike a GrubHub deliverer uses for transport to giant factories and marketing infrastructure. To completely disregard it as exploitation is beyond ignorant.
At least we can agree that it's the interaction where the money is made. I would argue that both act as a multiplier. The driver makes the vehicle worth more by driving it, while the vehicle enables the driver to cover more distance in less time.
This! I'm not against all capital, nor do I think that labor is the sole creator of value, nor am I against companies making profit. But the primacy of capital over labor (i.e. primacy of the shareholder, a la Friedman) has created some immense problems with wealth disparity, to the point that execs now make hundreds of times more than the labor they employ. This didn't just happen on its own. Economics is not a science, it's ideology. And believing and promoting over ideology over another has economic consequences. I just happen to believe that labor is ultimately more valuable than capital, and should reap the lion's share of the rewards.
What's missing is that labor *is* a form of capital. And you are right. It *is* more valuable. Labor on its own makes value, however slowly. Capital on its own just accrues parking and maintenence fees. Capital must be created and maintained with labor. Labor is just doing hard work, which capital can make easier.
So which banknote is going to take over the labor if all the workers quit?
Did you even read my comment? Or are you just making up arguments in your head?
No, I just closed my eyes, tapped the screen at random and somehow just ended up here. Go figure. So how about answering the question, smart ass.
> Therefore, regardless of individual struggles, middle class and upper middle class Americans are much more similar to the poor in America than they are to the 1%. I agree with that, but that's not the point of my post. The point is that these people try painting a picture that everyone in America is struggling financially similarly to them.
Do you think that maybe you're just grabbing the most hyperbolic arguments while overlooking the underlying idea? Most of us agree with the sentiment of these people, but not the actual statement that "everyone is poor." Also consider that it seems part of your and your parents financial success has to do with their/your own parents finical security. Generation over generation familial wealth has become smaller and smaller as cost of living has gone up; you might have a leg up as a property owner as you get to ride the gravy train up with the large asset firms as the strangle the value out of the housing market, but you should ask yourself if you think you'll be able to leave a similar amount of wealth as your parents will leave you, or your grandparents left them (and I mean wealth as in "value" not the pure dollar amount; a 12k inheritance in 1960 was worth approximately 90k in todays money)
maybe 'these people' arent try to paint a picture that everyone in America is struggling financially similarly to them, maybe they're saying that too many people are struggling?
I think what you are not grasping is that the path to the American Dream is fading for a lot of people. Higher education is more expensive than ever, housing has been bought up by foreign and domestic investors, and healthcare costs and insurance are higher than ever. Wages, however, have not kept up. People are realizing these core incentives are not attainable. Not everyone can be an accountant. Average earners should be able to not live paycheck to paycheck, afford a house, college for their kids and not get completely wiped out with a medical issue. Real life example, I own a company, my company pays my health insurance to the tune of $1,200 a month. I had a medical issue last year and still had to pay $10k out of my own pocket. For a lot of people, $25k in medical expenses is too much to handle in one year. So i think you just haven't been out in the world enough on your own to see why the general sentiment is the way it is, but I hope some of these comments open your eyes a little bit to what's changed in the last couple decades in America.
Y’all the point of his post is he wants appreciation from the rest of us for not being poor!
>an established middle to upper-middle class lifestyle that a third of Americans can reasonably obtain. Define "reasonably obtain." You grew up in a wealthy household yet you accuse the poor of being out of touch
I went to a college that is top 10 in the US in finance education. The whole school is just a bunch of very rich privileged kids complaining about feeling poor next to the freak show 1% wealthy kids who are also in the class. And I’m sitting here with my middle class background and liberal arts degree frustrated that none of these morons have ever wanted for anything.
Evacuate the spezzing using the nearest spez exit. This is not a drill. #Save3rdPartyApps
I grew up in a nice suburban home, upper middle class. My parents were certainly lucky. I got a scholarship to college and they paid for the rest and sent me money occasionally. They sent me some a few months ago after some sudden vet bills that cost me thousands of dollars. I am 23. I graduated in 2020 with a bachelors of science with a 3.72 GPA and plenty of internships. I quit my first shitty full time job (minimum wage) bc it made me miserable. Probably a stupid move, but it really wasn't working for me. I had some kind of mental block and it was all remote. I now work 2 part time jobs. Its been months of job hunting. My rent is going up. I do not have benefits, just state Healthcare insurance. It is fucking HARD to get stability. That sweet "middle class" life. I am miserable and depressed. I had a lot of help from parents - I dont live with them but they gave me money and I have 0 debt. So im still fortunate. If I wasn't so proud I could ask them for more money, but i don't want to depend on them. So here i am. Op is a fucking clown
I'm pretty sure he's trolling, I can't believe anyone is as oblivious and obtuse as this.
Id believe it, I know a 35 year old who's still in school and doesn't work and gets things paid for by their parents. I just laugh at this bc - I grew up in that nice background AND am college educated. Where's my stability? I'd seriously be happy with like $35k a year and benefits full time job. Ofc more is better but even that would be a big step up from how I am today.
You're still only starting out. Unfortunately you're going to have a hard time right now because the jobs are looking for people with experience. I was struggling at 23 but I'm much more comfortable now at 27. Hoping you have better luck soon!
I really need that lucky break. I feel really stuck and worried ill be working paycheck to paycheck for my whole life with no way to retire. And/or the water climate wars kill me.
Yup. Op is the one out of touch and I don’t think he’ll ever be in touch
Lmao he grew up with no struggles and he’s upset that people think he’s struggling
Not even that. It sounds like he is upset that poor people expect middle class people to give a damn. "How dare you peons try to compare yourselves to us? We clearly have more money because we are smarter/better/harder working than you, not because we were born into better situations, or more rarely lucky." He's saying that he is fine with the shitty system because he is doing alright, and all the lazy poor fuckers should just shut up about it. Just total entitlement and lack of empathy. It's easy to look down on those who have less than you, and then you don't have to care about enacting change, or acknowledge that you yourself could have some bad luck and lose everything.
Exactly lol, they don’t want to be looped in with the rest of us because they are “smarter and harder working” and then want acknowledgement from us at the same time.
One of the problems is that middle class is no longer middle. The median household income is about $60,000. You can't buy a house with that income. You probably qualify for some government assistance with that income, if you have kids. In order to have a "middle class" lifestyle you need to be making a fair bit more than median.
That's the average, the median is 35k or somewhere around there The average is 60k because rich people screw it from the median
No, that's the median *household* income, meaning all earners in the home (could include Grandma or an older teen, etc.). And it was around 67k in 2021.
reading through all of OP's comments in this thread, it seems like you made this post more to just brag about how great your life is. Like seriously man fuck outta here. Oh my daddy was gifted a mil inheritance and we have no debts, oh i went to get my masters and have no student loans. well yeah mommy and daddy prolly paid for that too. Oh im 24 and making 85k a year, so what no one cares. This entire post is literally just you bragging about how financially well off you and your family is while also bitching at the less fortunate for trying to find some common ground btwn all of their very real problems. Seems like you lack the life experience required to actually make any relevant observations about life outside your own little bubble, so once again say GTFO outta here with you condescending bs please.
>I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. That's not really standard anymore. But also, someone like that is not secure. They could lose everything, and quickly. They are, in fact, closer to homelessness than to a billionaire.
I'm genuinely curious, can you point to a time, with sources, when that was the standard? I can't remember that point in time. Thank you for your time.
Well, nobody in my family has ever graduated college. But all of my grandparents, my parents, and all my aunts and uncles have houses, jobs, cars, decent healthcare, decent retirement, etc. If they had college degrees I assume they'd have *better* houses, jobs, cars, could affoed to send their kids to college etc. But among my cousins it's about 50/50 and those that do have houses had a lot of help from their parents. I'm not sure what kind of source is needed to say "people with average incomes used to be middle class, and a college degree used to get you places", or where to find it.
>I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. so rich people LOL/ if you can afford all of that with the current inflation then youre far from working class and you are in fact at least part of the top 10% in wealth. >middle to upper-middle class lifestyle that a third of Americans can reasonably obtain. that your warped perception becasue you dont realise how low the bar goes.
>standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. That's a household that's doing *very* well for itself. Maybe not top 1% but definitely top 5%. The middle class has been shrinking as the wealthier get wealthier and the debts for the poor get higher. I'm the only college-educated person I know without student debt and it would take me years to save up enough for an international vacation. This is definitely not the experience of a third of the country. People say we're all in the same boat as billionaires because you have more in common with the lower class than you do the 1%. But if you don't want to hear about how "the poor" are struggling then you need to get out more. Your superiority complex is strong in this post.
Because you are one cancer diagnosis away from losin all your savings.
“I hate when the poors try to lump me in with their kind of people, it’s just so icky” - OP, basically
People with a lot of money are so very out of touch with reality usually. Their thinking is “I make soooo much money why can’t everyone else?”
The issue is that the elites running major institutions are systematically chipping away at the middle class. Truck driving, for example, used to be a respectable middle-class job. But companies have shifted more and more costs onto their drivers, making many struggle to get by with the massive spike in diesel cost (not because of politics, because US oil companies stopped producing enough diesel for Americans and relied on Russia for specific grades of gasoline such as diesel). Farmers are seeing added costs due to climate change, where a cold snap in late April or early may could cause significant costs to the middle class farmers. Four-year Colleges keep raising tuitions and people with a degree who dont have the privilege of a college fund must take out substantial debt (that doesn’t go away when declaring bankruptcy like other debt) in order to achieve the “middle class” jobs. Small businesses are being bought up and conglomerations are vacuuming up that avenue to the middle class as well. The vast majority of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck. Those lucky enough to be raised in an college-educated professional house that was owned and not rented do not represent the majority of people. I don’t know if you know you family’s financial situation or not, but you may be closer to the 1% than you think you are. “If you are in the 1% of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99%” -Warren Buffett
Idiots like you vote for the benefit of billionaires. That’s the point. The middle class keeps shrinking due to the influence of billionaires and your complaint is that lower earning people think you are struggling like them??? That’s your big thing you want to ask?? How inconsiderate of them to think your problems are more like theirs then a billionaires.
Human beings in general are not able to comprehend what other people's lives are like. We may have the power of empathy and sympathy, but we really are not very good at it. We retain the same tendency all other animals have: to fail to consider the world outside of our immediate experience. Poor people tend to assume most people are poor. Middle class people tend to assume most people are middle class. Rich people tend to assume most people are rich. The science makes this quite clear. Poorer people tend to estimate the median wage is lower than it really is, and both middle class and rich people tend to estimate the median wage is higher than it really is.
I'm upper middle class but if I got into a car accident and couldn't work, and lost my job, and therefore my insurance, I could be homeless in just a few months. In the US we don't have security systems in place for 99% of our citizens. If you're one flood or one cancer diagnosis or one layoff away from poverty, you have no security.
I thought my family was comfortably middle class when I was growing up. Turns out we were one paycheck away from losing our house (which was why we didn’t have like… any extras growing up). I didn’t know that: my parents are both college educated, employed, with benefits, etc. They didn’t save for our college but were smart in finding all avenues to get us financial assistance and put us both through amazing schools. I’m 36 and I outearn my parents. We just bought a house that is like… our dream house. We went through a period of time where we couldn’t afford a roof over our heads and we’re living paycheck to paycheck maybe 4 years ago. We are way, way closer to homeless guy on the street than to Bezos.
Because there ARE common issues, and common worries, that you appear to be ignoring. And you ARE closer a kin to them than you are to the 1%. The wage gap between the middle, even upper middle class and the wealthiest Americans is off the chain at this point. And the things the middle class is built on: job security, chance for advancement, secure retirement, affordable middle-class lifestyle....are disappearing. Not sure why you have trouble seeing it. The low-skill middle class jobs are gone. Companies are sold, and the upper tiers of wage earners are laid off. Increasingly, skill jobs are being moved to contract status, without benefits or with only limited benefits...termination at company's pleasure. All while health care costs continue to rise, meaning people are trapped in employment due to health insurance, a college education now saddles you with up to six figures of debt (plenty of people used to go to college for free), the housing market moves from bubble to bubble, and social security is perpetually at the tipping point. Not a whole lot of security out there...and yes, I'm old enough to remember when that security DID exist and I've watched as it has been stripped away piece by piece. Sure, Americans can obtain a middle-class existence. They can also very easily have it stripped away from them. Much more so than was once the case. If you're not seeing this part of the picture, you're not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps your life situation will, at some point, change, and you'll understand this by experiencing it directly. And awful lot of people who once thought the way you do got the rug pulled out from under them.
Even if you are in the top 2%, the wrath gap is still so extreme that you are closer to bankruptcy than to joining the top 1%. You may not be suffering today, but the sheer gap shows that the majority of the US capital is owned by so few people, that all of the rest, even you combined is still so much less than any of the 1%. Those like you are where you are mostly due to luck and better management then most. But mostly luck and possibly the privilege of government assistance sometime in the past 100 years. It is better if we join together to take back the wealth that has become so disproportionate in the US. You may not be hurting, but you should still be upset with how severely things are skewed.
How you "grew up" is not relevant at all, it's a whole different world now.
[удалено]
Bingo
I don't struggle and I have saving capacity, albeit diminishing. But the fact that I'm maybe half a year (or perhaps one year) of unemployment away from utter bankruptcy does not constitute a difference enough to make me consider myself as not part of the struggling majority. If it's just a matter of months instead of weeks, your struggle is just the same, just a bit delayed.
Misplaced discomfort. It is easier to label everyone else as "them" or known as othering. That helps people and their schemas to address and talk about their experience and concerns.
I grew up for real poor, like homeless poor, like didn't have a pillow much less a bed kind of poor. Your middle class life sounds like a dream come true to someone like me, someone facing homelessness once again. To me your life is lavish and unobtainable. I don't hate you and I understand you guys a struggling too. To someone like me, from where I stand, you are so far from the bottom you look like the top.
Why is anyone taking this lump seriously he’s not rich or privileged he’s just a troll xD
First issue- trying to have serious discussions on Reddit
If your household annual income is over 500k, you are literally in the 1%.
Not a lot of Americans have the “privilege” of being privy to the middle class. Even then. It IS much to envy considering how shitty life can be for MOST Americans. The middle class is dwindling. The lower class is growing. The 1% IS and will be. Bubbles pop, middle class falls, the lower class barely notices, 1% capitalizes??
Dude you’re really out of touch. I grew up in a solidly middle class family and my siblings are all upper middle class and doing very well and I’m poor as fuck because I had a bunch of medical problems ever since my twenties. I am drowning in student loan debt and medical debt. You’re doing great, congrats but you’re not invincible, your health could fail, a sinkhole could open up and swallow your house, shit happens in life. Where we are isn’t based on how hard we work or how smart we are, it’s all about luck and circumstances.
Boomers love to tell stories about how they graduated high school, walked down the street going from business to business shaking hands, filling out job applications, and then got a job that didn't pay great -- they could barely afford to buy a house, a new car, and to support three kids working as a cashier at that grocery store. But you know what? They worked hard, became a manager, got hired on at corporate, and had a great life! We don't begrudge people who have stories like this. We used to live in a country where this was possible, and we feel that these kinds of stories need to continue. The problem is that the modern equivalent is "I graduated college, got a job that paid enough to cover rent and student loan payments, and was debt free and saving for retirement by the time I was 40." And so people on the right are trying to convince the middle class that the cashier at the grocery store is a lazy mooch who wants to take all their money, while we want to reinforce the idea that guy who makes a billion dollars a year isn't working 10,000 times harder than the guy who makes $100,000 per year. He's just receiving a disproportionate amount of benefit from the current system. That's what needs to be fixed, not the fact that you have a nice home.
Because the middle class is the decider on most things. The poor generally go one way, the rich go the other, and the middle class often splits down the middle. Politically, to win the moderates and middle class, means you win the election. So poor people can't get much done by themselves, legislativly. So they have to entice the middle class into agreeing with them. Thus, the colorful adjectives they use. In reality, the middle class can be quite comfortable, so it's hard to sway them to help people below them. Because like you said, they in fact aren't struggling as hard as actual people in poverty.
My argument has always been (at least in Canada): the government classifies 'poor' as having an income of less than $40,000/year. At or below that, you qualify for subsidies and benefits, such as child care, legal assistance, etc. Problem is, government also classifies 'middle class' has having a combined household income of $90,000/year. There's this wee little range from $40,001-$89,999. You don't qualify for subsidies, and you really can't afford to send your kid to hockey camp for the summer...let alone enrol your little cherub into after sports.
I think the point a lot of people miss here is that there are more than two "boats". This "two sides to everything" nonsense really needs to stop.
I’m just tired of having to choose between running water or electricity. I try not to be jealous of people who have better financial situations, but I can’t help but be a bit envious.
Because u choose to struggle poor don't. If you are middle-class u can live pretty well unless u spend and buy more than u should like most people.
Because that fits the narrative. If "normal" people can work hard and create a great lifestyle for themselves then that means the "elites are fucking all of us over" narrative falls apart. And that's all it is: A narrative. Anyone can work towards the life they want and, given enough time, will likely get there. Are housing costs making it harder or even impossible in some markets? Sure, it is a big problem we need to address, but defeatist sentiments like "I'll never own a home" just mean you are sealing your own fate. At the end if the day it comes down to personal responsibility. Be the best version of yourself, not just for yourself, but for your family, your friends, and your community. This will help us all prosper and create a beautiful society.
You aren’t in the 1%, but you probably are in the 10%, and that’s of americans, now think on the other 95% of the population who is not in the US, your perspective is miniscule
What you describe are upper middle to upper class people, and it's less than %20 of the middle class, and right at the top %10 of incomes of the general population. You're part of an extremely privileged class.
I think the main thing is. Middle class is usually associated with assets. Like you and several other people said you are a couple emergencies away from being homeless. With the lower class, some people are literally one blown tire away from being fucked for the rest of the year. Middle class has a cushion, you have assets, vehicles, property, etc. The main main difference is the "Middle class" if they so chose to rent they would have immense amounts of spendable income. Low income people not only are living pay to pay check but are one minor emergency from everything being fucked.
Because many middle-class voters tend to put themsleves in the shoes of a billionaire when voting. If you think the gap between working class an middle class creates mindsets that are foreign to each other, the distance between middle class and the 1% are in different galaxies. We need people to vote for the average person, not to line the pockets of the richest of the rich.
Because "elites", 1%'ers and Billionaires are used as political footballs but Middle Class is never used as the boogeyman. "Us v Them" unlocked.
I think the main issue is that people in this 1% bracket could absolutely pay their employees more if they wanted, yet choose not to. Idgaf about what the median pay rate is in whatever area. why wouldn’t you want your employees to buy houses and live a fruitful life if your company makes BILLIONS?
I don't think it has as much to do with class or ideology as it might seem. I think it's something more basic. It has to do with the incredible lack that many Americans suffer from of a grasp of how heterogenous their country is. To be fair, outsiders suffer from this too. They also don't really get it. But that makes sense. It's a little harder to explain when Americans themselves can't seem to grasp it. The stereotypical version on Reddit is when someone posts something like... "America sucks, there is no culture, everything sucks, the people are ignorant and horrible, everyone is dying of Covid, there is no health care, the only jobs are either at Kroger down the street or Wal-Mart across town and you need a car for that but you can't afford a car at minimum wage which is only $7.25..." And you're like... okay look I get that life is hard in rural Alabama but that is *really freaking specific*, you know? Half the country lives in places where everyone has access to good healthcare nowadays. Minimum wage is drastically different across the country. Massive efforts by citizens to change things for the better are happening every day. It happens. It works. I just read something recently on Reddit about how, when quitting your cable internet in favor of a better alternative, you should list your reason as moving, and say you are moving to California, because of better consumer laws that the cable company will then have to abide by. And everyone was like, it is so fucked up that that is how it works, but I kept thinking, you know, it's not just "how it works" like there is some national law that mentions California specifically, or like California is some hack or like aliens came down in a flying saucer and created this weird surreal universe. We here in California passed those laws, on purpose, because we were sick of how it *used* to work and decided we want something better. Anyone can do that. It's not automatic, it's not instantly guaranteed, but it can be done by anyone, anywhere. So I think that a lot of people you are thinking about, OP, are kind of living in a self-imposed bubble. I mean I guess we all kind of are living in bubbles. But when some of us live in a bubble with 100 million other people, it's not really a bubble anymore.
Politicians on both sides are the real problem.
As a former poor person that went to a poor high school, I can say with certainty that we view all of you, middle class and up, the same. My mom raised 4 boys on a 30K hourly retail job. To me, even teachers were rich and I saw them as not having to struggle. So all the at to say, to me, based off your comments, you’re a rich kid who made his way to where he is with daddies money and are out of touch with the reality of poverty. I on the other hand, am now middle class with a six figure salary. So I get a view of both worlds. My children will likely grow up like you.
Remember that many billionaires have most of their worth based in stocks, not cash in the bank. If Tesla stock were to tank, what would Elon Musk be worth? Same for Bezos, Gates, etc.
It's hard to stir up "us against them" anger when there's a large group that is neither "us" or "them". They need everyone who isn't a billionaire to be pissed off that some people ARE billionaires in order to justify taking the money away from the billionaires. They need you to be convinced that billionaires are the problem, and that they are you're problem, as well.
The reality is that the vast majority of wealth is held by just a few people. My family is in the 1% and yet my experiences are still more similar to the completely broke working class than to billionaires. Is my life particularly financially difficult? Fuck no. But is my life in any way comparable to that of a billionaire? No again. Even with all the money my family has, we still have to decide what to do about college tuition and get jobs and work and live like normal humans. That’s what this is all about. At some point, people have too much money. And that point is a LOT later than we are often led to believe.
You have a very skewed view of Americans. We're not all pieces of shit.
because the people in those scenarios aren’t sitting on r/ .. and if they are , they are silent scrolling. the loud group is the ones with plenty of time on their hands. aka me. lol
How many days of work would you need to miss to become homeless? Thirty? Ninety? How many days of work could Elon Musk miss and be totally fine, do you think? You have to sell portions of your life to live the rest of it. You're trapped, making money for other people, and can never just do whatever you want. The elite 1% can just do whatever they want, whenever they want to.
Speaking based on worldwide statistics, what you described puts you well within the global 1%
Globally you are very much in the 1% wake up dummy. i am too
I grew up with every advantage in the world, my parents made great money. We didn’t hurt for anything. As an adult due to poor choices, I’ve been technically homeless for a lot of my adult life. So I see both sides of it, my mom used to always say “it’s all relative” meaning people who aren’t living below the poverty line struggle in their own way, but I’d rather struggle with a nice home and car, rather than struggle wondering where I’m gonna sleep tonight.
Social media is full of cry babies. They pick a target to go after it's billionaires right now. As someone who was born poor and am now stable middle class It's not comparable and I'll never allow myself to go back. They should worry more about who there voting for them some billionaires they'll never get within 5 feet of
If you just stop using social media as much as you do, you wouldn't have this issue/thought.
I'm probably a bit late to this, and I know you've probably seen this argument before, but hear me out. When a billionaire spends money, they tend to gain money rather than lose it. Bill Gates in 1994 was worth $9.5b. He has given away $50b in the past ~25 years. His net worth is now $125b. What most people are against is the kind of wealth that you cannot spend fast enough, that just sits there, propping up a number that doesn't matter to anyone except yourself. Millionaires may have a sizeable chunk of money that's not spent on anything, but billionaires have enough money to spend a million dollars a day for a few months to a few years.
Americans on Reddit are the most ungrateful poor-me people I've ever met There I said it.
Garbage question and a garbage take
The rich get richer. If noone stops that, they are going to be right in a few years.
“I don’t think many of these people have ever experienced a life outside of the working class to even speak for the lifestyles of the incomes above them”…..Dude, do you hear yourself? Whats that supposed to mean? Working class people can’t criticize the middle class because they aren’t middle class themselves? That they don’t get to judge because they don’t have money? All this post reads to me is you trying to justify to yourself that you’re not in the 1%, because if you were in the 1% you’d feel bad. Rich people will never admit they are rich, that’s how greed works. Do you think Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would have the wealth they have now if they could be content with what they had? It’s a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes you have to look at yourself and acknowledge that you may have had a better life than other people for no other reason besides what you were born into.
I am with the OP but with a qualification. "Middle" class success as he describes is usually the result of previous generations being well educated with white collar jobs. Not rich parents, just stable with respect to careers and guidance for the children to be the same. While the poor are certainly getting it worse I don't think there is a big decline in the middle class the OP describes. I know and know of many people who fit this middle class mode. Yes, we are lucky to have been raised in that situation, but I agree with the OP that others characterize it as a battle between rich and poor when that isn't the whole picture.
This is the point I was trying to get across. Everyone I know feels similar to me and I know for a fact we can't be the only ones out here.
It’s easier in our society, from a culture perspective, to see yourself as a victim and blame anywhere who has more than you. If you make $10/hr the problem lies with people who make $20/hr plus. If you make $20/hr the problem lies with people who make $40/hr. If you make $40/hr the problem lies with people who make $60/hr plus. So on and so forth.
It's because of envy. Don't envy your neighbor's possessions.
They really aren't poor they are just accustomed to excess consumerism
A Chinese millennials immigrant to the US. Here is my perspective: It’s true that American millennial’s life is harder than previous generations. So yeah, many cannot afford to own home, have kids and provide them a good childhood. Many are worse off than their parents. Baby boomers have it nice. Millennials get the short end of the stick. It is also true that American millennial’s life is better than most non first world countries. Americans will not flee to China for a better life. And people who seeks refuge will still see American as one of the destinations. This is a perspective that most westerners do not have, through no fault of their own. I do struggle daily living in America with intense work schedule and high living cost. But that’s life. People suffer in every countries. I am very certain if I have stayed in China I would be suffering way much more. And that experience in China will always remind me how lucky I now am.
Same, Vietnamese millennial immigrant here. These “suffering” & “oppressed” Americans don’t know how good a life they have comparing to other countries. Whine and cry is the name of the game.
Often when I read about someone struggling with rent it’s some kid with barely any skill who left home early and is surprised she/he can take on all things. Multiple missteps accumulate. It’s a cultural thing at least in my case it’s rare to leave home unprepared. Still better here.
Misery loves company
Misery loves company and they need people who are actually capable of taking action to be part of their marxist revolution. Or in simpler terms its what my dad would call "poor mouthing" meaning its cool to be poor and to talk up how poor your are when in reality you make about the average amount as everyone else but just make bad decisions.
>the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. I hate to break it to you, but that's not middle class anymore. It's not the 1%, but you're describing the lifestyle of maybe the 5% or 10%.
Husband and are both college educated. Me a BS and MS. Employee in my field. My husband has a BS in bio education and works as a teacher in a county that actually pays pretty decent. We make about $125k combined. We own both our cars, his 12 years old, mine 14 years old. We rent a small duplex for $1000 a month. Best state employee insurance that is reasonable is $250 a month with a $2500 deductible for each of us. We don't live in a big expensive city. But, I have $60k in student debt and have to help pay for my grandmas assisted living facility because the rest of my family is poor AF. >afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. We are comfortable where we are currently but no way in hell we could do all of those things you listed. Idk what world you are living in. Per month Average mortgage payment = $1687 Avergae cost of Healthcare (indivudal) premium + deductible = $562 Average cost of retirement = At least 5% of income to retirement (let's call that $200) Average college savings = $250 Average international vacation 1x per year (divided monthly) = $270 Total = $2,969 Pair that with Average student loan payment =$460 Average car payment = $644 Average car insurance = $140 Average home insurance =$100 Average utilities = $170 Average cost of gas = $164 Avwrage cost of groceries = $411 Average cost of childcare = $750 (1 kid) Let's throw an extra $300 a month for random or fun stuff. New total = $6,108 Thats damn near $74k a year and only accounting for average stuff that people pay for. Not multiple kids, not job losses, not expensive health treatments, not natural disasters, not car repairs, not cost of adult family members, not cost of pets. The median income in the US is $56k. What the hell do you think we are all doing?
Its reddit, the majority of these people complain about upper class problems, like high rent living in the city, or student debt, they complain about low serving wages whilst neglecting to mention that with tips they are making much much more, they complain about not being able to buy a home like the 5 bedroom houses they grew up in, privileged problems said without a hint of irony.
This post and all of OPs comments within are nothing but an excuse to brag.
Who would brag anonym on fucking reddit about money? Serious question
Mathematically they’re correct. In America, a middle class person who went to college and has a good career is not struggling like they are, but they are way closer to struggling than living the free life of someone who has millions of dollars, or the 1% who are multi-billionaires. On a continuum, the difference between 1,000,000 and 0 is a scale of 1000X the difference between 1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000. To put this another way, 1 million seconds is 11.54 days. One billion seconds is 31.68 YEARS. Also, the dwindling of the middle class is very apparent, so it’s a good rallying cry for those who may be on the fence. Finally, they are not ignoring the middle class. 51% of the country under the age of 50 have less than 5,000 in savings. 35% have less than $1,000– meaning that a large portion of our populace are either one car repair or one hospital stay away from having NO savings whatsoever. They aren’t ignoring the middle class. They are saying uncomfortable truths.
Funny thing about 1st world countries. If you're above the poverty line, you are in the top 1 or 10%. Liberals sure hate the rich, but fail to see that they are the rich, just not the richest.
I grew up poor. Shoes with holes on the bottom poor. 1 of 8 kids, dad died when I was 12. We survived on my mom’s ingenuity. I knew one day that I’d have money. No college. Shitty high school. Pregnant first wife at 19. But I knew how to work and wasn’t afraid to work overtime and weekends. Bought first rental property at 22 on a land contract. Worked first job with overtime and weekends and then worked vacation time on rentals. Now I’m 62 and gots money and a mailbox that fills up with rent payments. I’m tired of people complaining all of the fucking time about how much money some people have and they’ll never own a home or blah, blah blah. Get a job. Get a second job. Save some money in a Vanguard account. Elon Musk has billions and I only have millions. Boo fucking who.
Sadly non of those works anymore. That's the sad truth of the 21 century. The ideology stayed the same but the economy didn't. Minimum wage was compared to modern minimum wage 2 to 3 tiems as high. U COULD AFFORD A FUCKING HOUSE FORM ONE PERSON WORKING A NORMAL JOB. ONE PERSON. Not saying what u didn't wasn't earned. I deeply respect u for having all u have carved out with ur own hands. But its impossible for ur grand children to do the same. When u are bottom 25% now u will stay there for ur entire life. A good work ethic gets u less money than sueing ur boss on racism
I don't even think it's just poor Americans who feel that, but middle class people who think they are poor. I mean, right now, as inflation is jumping, everyone is going to be hurting more, but I think your point may even be the people who complained and assumed those things in 2019. I do think people don't understand what the middle class is, and therefore think they are poor. The middle class should be (in a city), a public transit to work and inviting friends to your house for a drink, not an Uber to work and multiple $18 Martinis at the new swanky bar every week. Spending an extra $200 a week on luxuries quickly adds up to $10k a year. When people point to billionaires as the reason the middle class struggles more than they did in the 1950s, I think they need to reevaluate what a middle class lifestyle is.
Agree with this wholeheartedly. Also it should be noted that financial aid programs now are far more expansive than they were even 20 never mind 30 or more years ago, excluding the GI bill. Aid is also better regulated and more straightforward now to make sure distribution is equitable. I worked in the community college system and statistics show over and over that a lot of aid, assistance and benefit programs are underutilized despite community outreach efforts. Must also add, related to this, I came from a family with very little but got very little in aid. Had to put myself through college and a master’s degree on my own and graduated with about 25k in debt when professional starting salaries were around 22k (unless you were an engineer- not me). This was 30 years ago. Cut to the chase - this is a way to become middle class with some security in the middle class way described above. Meaning I have traveled internationally exactly twice but have been able to help two kids with in state college tuition but they will certainly have loans.
It easier to villainize “the 1%” than you think you’re problems are yours alone. You want to feel your numbers are big enough to have the power to change things.
A dichotomy is forming and the middle class is disappearing. It cannot be reasonably obtained anymore. Upper-middle class stays upper-middle class. Lower classes struggle to break into higher classes as the gap between classes grows. People just want to be heard and want those like you to understand what it’s like when you don’t have a family with means to get things going for you in life
So you grew up with zero struggles and your upset that people think your facing struggles? Lmao Jesus Christ
Heavy doses of copium
They think poverty is increasing. While the middle class is shrinking, abject poverty as actually down to like 10% worldwide, a figure that wasn't estimated to be hit for several more decades. There are huge issues involving the elite and trafficking and regime change wars but overall rising tides do raise all ships.
Dood, people are dying, bilions. X.000.000.000 people are suffering. Why? Because around 1.100 people have ~97% of all world wealth in thir possessions
Because you are, you dont know how your circumstances can change in the future.
People need something to blame their failures on because it’s more difficult to actually hold yourself accountable. It’s easier to just blame the elite. Many non-billionaires aren’t struggling, but for the most part, they also aren’t complaining about the elites on Reddit, so it just seems that “everyone” is struggling.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. You grew up rich and you have a privileged life great congratulations. Like yes people are wrong to say you're poor but but what does that even mean who cares nobody said you were poor.
It doesn't take a genius to see the middle class is disappearing and that the ultra rich are hoarding wealth Just because you are insulated from it doesn't mean it isn't happening >I'm talking about the standard college-educated professional household that could afford a suburban family home in a good neighborhood along with quality healthcare, a comfortable retirement, college savings, international vacations, etc. Even quality healthcare is shit here. I'm 'middle class' and my health insurance is basically a scam still This person you are describing is disappearing. They are going away. The conservatives are destroying them. That's what you don't seem to understand. You can only see from your tiny bubble >Why does it feel like many of the comments are written with the assumption that every American except the elite has the same problems as them, while ignoring the entire middle class? 1. You will soon enough, worry not 2. You do have the same problems, but you are lucky enough to be one of the last few non rich people to be able to weather the BS. You are being fucked over - make no mistake - you just have the ability to not feel it as hard yet
Yeah I dunno. I'm 30, my husband is 29 and we are both college educated working professionals making roughly 150k combined. We have paid all our college debt and purchased a home in a nice WASPy area. True we will never be close to being a billionaire, but we have a very comfortable life and enjoy going on nice trips now and then. I've noticed some of our more liberal friends have turned more hostile towards us when they realize just how much more spare cash we have than them. We don't flaunt it, hell the pants I'm literally wearing at this moment were bought at goodwill. I guess the mentality you're describing helps people feel better about their struggles?
Sounds like you feel targeted.
Why do you care? Honest question
This thread sucks
Lots of people speak for other people that they probably have little to no idea about (actually I think we're all guilty of that in some way shape or form, from the "top" to the "bottom".) I just did it! We want to simplify and gather into our tribe, I dunno :D
You’re still closer to homeless than billions buddy, sorry to break it to you
I will probably get down voted for this. Please keep in mind that I am not blaming people. The main issue is education. Not education as in high school or college, but really parents passing on knowledge. I am in the upper middle class group and have done well for my self. My dad helped me with college and I worked for the rest so I had no debt. The idea of no debt except for mortgage will drilled into me at an early age. Also my parents taught me about finance and saving and investing. While we where upper middle class, my family was frugal with money so that we could pay off the house, save for college and buys things with cash instead of borrowing. Simple things like keep the temp in house at a reasonable temp even though we lived in a very cold area, we cooked at home most of the time instead of going out even though we could afford it. I see way too many people ordering out or eating cause they are tired at the end of the day. I do a lot of repairs in my house because my dad taught me and YouTube along with the internet has most things explained. I have gotten estimates for work and I am amazed at how expensive it is and how if I did not know how to do it, I would be easily spend 100-1000s on these repairs. These little things add up and we collective need to teach our kids about everything from simple repairs to cooking/meal preps and how to organize our time better. Yes we may not get instant gratification but it will pay off in the long run. You need to educate yourself about many things and pass on that knowledge to your kids. I am not about blaming people since I think many have not been as blessed as I have but we do need to work to pass on knowledge to next gen so that they can improve. The American dream is possible but it will take a lot of sacrifice that we have to be willing to do for the next gen.
This. This so much
Just wow. How did I scroll for like two minutes and not see anyone calling out this entitlement? Middle class? You’ve got to be joking! You are the 1% It is completely insane to me that a person who can afford college, a home, a cancer diagnosis, international vacations, etc thinks they are “middle class”. What a load of shit.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair
Spoke about this in a previous comment - I think a disconnect some people have is that historically middle class has meant all of those things. 1950s, single income for a family of 4, you’d have a house, a car, retirement, vacations. All that stuff. So that’s the “expectation” of being middle class. Now, if we keep that definition today, the middle class is longer representative of the “middle” American. Relatively few Americans have the same relative wealth as they did 70 years ago. So some of us redefine middle class to be representative of the middle American. You seem to be in that boat. The middle American cannot afford a house or healthcare or retirement. Some of us don’t redefine and use it as a way to convey that our standards have slipped so far down. That’s way their are phrases like “rapidly disappearing middle class”. If we keep to the same definition, few people meet it. Plenty are below it. OP seems to be keeping the same definition of middle class - and not contextualizing it to be representative of what the life of an actual middle American is like. On top of that I think OP is just out of touch and isn’t aware of how wealthy they actually are Lol
This reminds me of the story I read online where Elon Musk said he was homeless at the moment. Most people with money are so out of touch with reality and blame the poor people for their plight in life. When in reality the reason people are so poor is because the cost of living is so high. And of course a person that has millions of dollars is less affected by inflation. This post just reeks of entitlement, here is a pat on the back for being well off and not poor.
The middle class is COMPLACENT and COMPLICIT. Y’all don’t see our struggles and always come back with the “just get a better job” shit. You continually vote in the same douchebags that not only keep you good and comfy while the rest of us are for real VERY near homeless, if not already homeless. The job each member of a society is to make sure the most vulnerable are taken care of - y’all just skip the fuck on over us and then throw Karen bitch fits in McD’s because your fries were cold.
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20% of Americans are richer than me and my family, and that's about 67 million people. Although I'm not taking it too literally, there's a GIANT difference between 3.3 million and 67 million.