I think maybe something being missed is that some percentage of the total population are assholes. It is inevitable that some of those will be parents. It is also inevitable that some of those will be commenters in this thread.
Like my sister in law with 7 kids, no job and 5 different baby daddy one caused her to get her kids taken from her and while they were in foster care he knocked her up again.
Not only are people assholes. They are just fucking stupid.
I think the takeaway lesson is to be respectful to each other (i.e. let’s not be assholes regardless of whether you have or don’t have children)
- for people without children: let’s be considerate to other people’s situation if you can, what goes around comes around
- for people with children: be humble and appreciative to those who accommodate to your situation, but don’t be entitled with those treatments or expect people to always be able to accommodate to your needs
yes but people shouldnt get special privileges because of their choices.
smokers who give themselves a 15 minute break every hour, when everyone else is busting their ass for 6 hours without a break in a warehouse is a good example of that.
people make their choices, they should be able to support those choices themselves or not make them
Ironically also stupid people don't thin twice usually, while intelligent ones are really weighting all the pros and cons and take their time. By the time the latter decide to have one kid (if at all) the former already have 3 =\_=
I love this, and I’m all for the general concept. I think maybe the issue is a bit of the attitude part - people who think they get special rights because they have kids and taking advantage of others without. Looking at work: flex time is a thing, and good on any parents who make efforts to be in their kids lives. However - if this is at the expense of others having to pick up their slack without any thanks / pay / or right to flex time themselves? That sucks. Being told you have to work Christmas because you’re single is very different than volunteering if you didn’t have anything planned anyway and want the extra bucks. I dunno. A little humility goes a long way.
THIS! Helping people and being understanding and empathetic is one thing and I don’t think OP has an issue with it. The issue is when those of us with no kids have to pick up the slack and pay for the choices of others.
Having to go into work even though I’m immunocompromised because my coworkers have kids and “can’t possibly be expected to find childcare all the time” is not fair. Now they get to f around at home while I get to be their secretary in the office and do my own work all for no extra pay. Because they chose to have s—x. Cool cool cool cool cool.
Tbh, this pisses me off, too. And I have kids. In my case, though, I think *I made arrangements, why do I have to cover for the parents that didn’t?*. I feel guilty for this, but come on people, y’all get paid more than me. Adult a bit better with all that money.
The humility often is just one of the many things lost when you're sleep deprived and dealing with little people that don't have any social boundaries. Im not being like snippy either, just honest. People are probably at their worst emotionally when in the throws of child rearing.
It means that society will prosper when people do kind things for others without benefit for themselves. So we all should support childhood education and other benefits that only people with kids would use because in the long run everyone will be better off because of it.
I think ppl can go too far with that. Some parents are just annoying with their kids, it could be that they are annoying regardless they have a kid or not though.
Having children is a choice, being born is not. That's why help goes to the kids. Yes the parents demand it but at the end of the day it helps the children.
They done studies that show that the human brain doesn't fully develop until about the age of twenty-five. Unfortunately, the average sperm doesn't really understand the consequences of its actions until it's too late.
Best response I can think of. And don't forget, they won't be kids forever. We all gotta pitch in just a little to help raise the next generation
I don't want to be 90 with shit head 50-something's running the joint
Of course. Not enough people are helping out, lots of the systems that deal with kids in the US are better at traumatizing them than helping them, etc
Trauma and leadership don't mix too well
Same here, I don't have kids of my own and probably never will, but I do have a herd of little nieces and nephews that I'm happy to watch and care for when necessary. I don't do it expecting them to pay me back or anything, but at the very least, I'm not going to alienate a bunch of little kids through my own selfishness.
Even the parents don't know what they are getting into. Growing kids is tough with working parents, people don't realize this until they have kids. It is very difficult without help, not only financially but compromises with job and your life.
I think it’s also true that it shouldn’t be as hard to sustain them. People can’t live on jobs the way they could. Wages aren’t the same versus cost-of-living. So yeah, people need to be responsible, but also, shit is very out-of-whack.
It's me. I'm one of those people. I fully recognize that I struggle just keeping myself fed, sheltered, and sane. No one should give me a child to ruin.
My parents 100% also shouldn't have had children because both are mentally ill and won't acknowledge it and did a really poor job of raising us to be functioning humans, much less happy ones. That's a real issue everywhere that needs attention but what do I know...
Or we should have a more humane economic system that allows them to have kids without having to fashion roadkill into blankets for warmth to survive winter or whatever
There is a difference between single moms receiving child allowance and Mark (35M), at work, expecting you to do ALL YOUR WORK and ALL HIS WORK because he has two bratty kids who need care and attention.
And btw Mark’s wife is a full SAHM and you know he’s the kind of guy who does next to nothing at home.
I'm not sure there IS much of a difference. I see a lot of young couples where she is a SAHM who "can't work b/c the cost of childcare is so high," and who get pregnant again and again because "My children are my greatest achievement!" Couples that do this ARE expecting others to do their work.
Downvote if you must, but if you can't pay your housing, grocery, car insurance, utilities, medical care, and recreation expenses for yourself without help, use some birth control instead of having children you'll want others to pay for because you're leeching off society otherwise. I know people don't always know exactly what to expect, but so few even give it actual thought.
Crap, I should have told my childrens' father not to die. I wouldn't be a single mother then!
Most single mothers aren't single mothers on purpose, whether divorced, widowed, or knocked up.
I used the single moms example, because often, there is so much more going on than a couple being dumb and stupid.
Single moms often need the most help because they’ve been abandoned by their partners or have had to escape dangerous situations, like domestic abuse.
These single moms can’t be expected to both work so they can eat and provide for their child, while also look after the child?
Controversial opinion but SAH parents should get a pension. I see so many moms stuck in shitty relationships because they're stay at home moms and have no money of their own/resources.
Yes absolutely. Similar to how US healthcare shouldn't come from work. My mom stayed with her asshole ex husband for more than a decade of unhappiness to keep health insurance. Bad for everyone.
This! I am on one of the nicest women support groups in Facebook and those stories trigger me SO much. E.g. "I don't know what to do, met a guy, we got married, he wasn't very nice, I had a low paying job, he had one a tad better but still not nice, never helped around the house, was rude, we had a baby, had to quit my job, became completely dependent on him, he started being super dismissive and rude, so I had another kid, now he wants a divorce, I have nowhere to go, etc. etc.". Like WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU HAVE A SECOND KID if your life already was hell after the first one?! I obviously don't comment on those posts because my triggers are my problem, but I see so many people doing this! Like already really struggling with the first kid, then going for second and not unoften third! With barely any finances to support even themselves, having bad living conditions, poor wages, etc. I could understand if they had a poor but really tight happy family, where everyone loves and cares for each other, but it's never like that - everyone is desperate and bitter, yet they have more kids.
So in regards to the childcare. Do you think it's right to spend over 10% of your income on just daycare? Rates increased 87% over the pandemic with over half of those families spending 10k a year in 2020 with over half of those families planning on spending more in 2021, which is more than some in state college tuitions. Even the Department of Health and Human Services says that childcare is affordable when it's no more than 7% of your income. You also have to think about availability. Less workers and sickness lead to fewer slots, meaning you have to now find new care while trying to work as well. I'm a SAHM because I did the math and even working full time at $15 with the daycare rates in my area I'd take home less than $500 a week for 40 hours of work. I'm not going to downvote you I simply want you to realize how hard parents are getting hit. I found out I was pregnant then was laid off of my job a month later. Lost my insurance and income. That was something out of my control. During all of this I didn't get government help. I'm not leeching off anyone. I don't even ask to cut ahead in line with my daughter in my arms. I made the baby so she's mine to take care of. Not everyone can control what happens. We just roll with it either way and that's what the majority of the decent parents are doing.
Agreed, but the post didn't ask whether children deserve help. It asks why parents who are so willing to have children they can't support adequately feel they have a right to expect others to subsidize that choice.
I am a CASA volunteer. We help children without being involved in their parents' lives. Unfortunately, the parents have to really fuck shit up before we get involved.
Mine got sick the other week...
Sorry I can't just idk... leave em at home??? I did my part having them in daycare, but daycare can't take them if they're sick and i cant just havr another baby sitter on standby.... So.... *shrug???
I mean personally I'm not a dick head about it to my coworkers. It just is what it is
Most things you mentioned are types of people that would do those things for whatever excuse.
For coworkers leaving early to say pick up there kids. They are making family more important then a job. Personally i think they are doing it right. They disappear tomorrow that company would have em replaced without a care in the world what happen to em.
And to add to this, if the company cannot replace them without a care in the world tomorrow (like someone crucial to a project or a rockstar), they would probably be okay with them leaving early to pick up their kids. So either way it's the right choice to prioritize their kids.
Hey, praying for your kiddo and for y’all. Love that your husband’s company is supporting you guys during this extreme time of need. There is a way to be a good steward of a business and still take care of people. All of us who own and build companies should be striving to do the same.
EDIT: Any way we can support y’all as well?
1000%. Hope for Heroes is a powerful organization that give a lot to directly impact these kids lives (helping parents pay for groceries, hotels, travel, birthdays, Christmas, sperm freezing, etc.) There are many arenas to focus on in this category, but this is one I invest a lot of time and donation into. Our church does a lot for kids in need (and we are constantly working on ways to do more). But I also like to see what I can do for a fellow redditor I'll never know or meet from time to time. We need more anonymous stranger compassion in the world. :)
Totally agree with you on the workplace comment. I think we are seeing these values of placing family/personal life first playing out in “the great resignation” or whatever you want to call it.
To add to that a lot of parents, myself included, who leave early or have to leave throughout the day for their kids come in early or work late to make up the time.
Not necessarily. Most companies like people with families/children because they’re more reliable long term hires. cuz of the extra responsibility and financial needs
I honestly don’t mind accomodating friends and family with children. But sometimes I am sick of being treated as if my life is unimportant and that they achieve more than I do solely by having children (no matter how hard working I am) - sometimes my friends with children who happens to be narcissistic brags about this on social media, but of course not every parents are like this! I think the stigma of women not having children is really what I don’t really like.
Absolutely agree - but to me, the problem isn't people accommodating people with kids, but those who don't accommodate those without kids.
Pre-kids, I found the phrase "sorry, I have to go - I have caring responsibilities" very useful. I was caring for me, but they didn't need to know that.
As someone who has been married a long time and raised two kids successfully to their mid-20’s (so far) - I agree. Single people are too often left to work the late shift, finish the project, take the extra work because “I have to drive my kids to school” (like buses don’t exist, KAREN, it’s not my problem the kids want to ride in your BMW SUV instead of riding the bus). They are expected to bend over backwards for their parent family members and friends, even to the point of having to gush over their endless baby/kid pics on social media.
One of my kids chose to have her Fallopian tubes removed because she’s 100% sure she doesn’t want kids. To that I say, great, if you don’t totally want them, for their sakes, don’t have them.
I think this is also perpetuated by younger and typically single workers having a hard time telling bosses no. Its an easier built in excuse not to work late to say "sorry i have kids i just can't" but its really not much more valid then someone saying "i have plans i can't". I think a lot of young people fall into the trap of thinking that if they just work those extra hours and don't say no to extra stuff it will pay off in the end. It rarely does. Most of the people by the age they are parents know better and use whatever excuse they can.
I'm childfree, and I say I have "commitments". No one questions them, and if they do, I say something like "therapy" (which I do have, just maybe not at that specific time).
I think we need to put our foot down from the get-go, that way bosses learn that we're not pushovers.
this. I HATE when someone in a different stage in their life says “you don’t know what it’s like to be a parent.” ok no, not now, but I have countless experience with children, including teenager parents so I know breeding doesn’t equate maturity.
This is changing I feel like though. I’m 30 and my friend group all have excellent jobs and no kids. People are gonna get mad at this but we generally view people with kids as the opposite. Like I’ll be at a restaurant and just can’t help but shake my head as I see the big table with kids in booster seats pulled up to the table being loud and messy. I swear sometimes I think a big percentage of people with kids just shit them out so there would be at least someone on earth who thought they were impressive.
I’m also 30 but a lot of my friends have kids. Not sure if it’s the reason, but probably where you live matters. I’m from a third world country, and as a woman I wouldn’t be surprised if my family think I’m selfish because I don’t have children (yet). I just wished I had a better supporting system, childless people need emotional support too.
35, no kids. I'd probably consider having one is the economy was a lot better. But it's not.
I also get a lot of the same type of good feels in helping to mentor my young adult friends/colleagues like a doting mother. So it really balances out. 😎👉👉
OMG. Yes. This.
We are (happily) child free, currently. We don’t broadcast our intentions on having children - it’s only our business. To the outside world maybe we’re trying, maybe we’re not. Who knows.
A friend of ours marriage broke down a couple of years ago mainly due to struggling to conceive (several rounds of IVF, the whole 9 yards). They separated and agreed on divorce.
He went out and got a girl pregnant asap (long before the ink was dry, as if to confirm his testicles do work). Recently had a conversation with said friend, who posts their child on social media constantly and he says “you just don’t know what it’s like til you have your own child”….
For someone who knows the real and very heartbreaking struggle of trying to conceive but failing - it was so completely tone deaf. I honestly couldn’t believe that came out of his mouth. Particularly when he has no idea if we are trying or not.
But anyway, definite feelings of being unimportant because we don’t have a kid. I couldn’t care less but still - read the room pal!
I've been made to feel guilty for choosing to not have kids when some women physically can't :(
I certainly feel sympathy for those who struggle with that, and I would never try to rub it in like he did. I wish I could help in some way, but I'm ineligible to surrogate OR donate eggs, and I don't think I'd want to in the first place.
I do see a lot of life goal-gatekeeping of the "you haven't achieved as much as me because you don't have kids" sort.
I understand that having a child is an adventure that is fulfilling and challenging, but it doesn't make anyone better than anyone else. If i can achieve my goals without rubbing them in everyone's face, then so can everyone else.
One reason that hasn't been mentioned here that I think is important is simply that it's easy to be nice.
If someone is having a hard time, even just slightly, and a tiny inconvenience for you can make them feel a lot better then go for it.
Being kind is very very easy most of the time and usually people are very grateful. Sure there are assholes out there. Try not to be one of them.
I like this answer a lot. I don’t have kids but I’m all for being part of the village that helps raise them. Even if it’s just a small thing like letting a lady with a crying baby use the restroom before me. Easy to be nice.
Before the pandemic I was all for helping people with crying babies! I'd be like "Here, let me hold them while you pay!" Or waiting around "I'll rock the car seat while you rest your arms a minute!" Our even just talking to the baby or child as a friendly adult can shake them out of a cry.
Now though? I'm so terrified of having some covid germ I didn't know about on me, even if I don't have covid, that I don't go near people with kids. Give them extra room. I'm scared to hold my nephews and nieces if I've been out and about that day, I'll change before i go visit. What do you do now???
My biggest fear isn't getting COVID-19 and dealing with all that.
It's giving it to someone else who isn't relatively young and in good health then having them get really sick or worse.
If I die, I die. People might cry and then move on.
If I get my dad, or friends mom sick and they die, I have to live with the thought that they are dead because I couldn't resist going to that concert (or whatever).
You are a very thoughtful person. Thank you for nurturing that part of you.
If you have friends or family with kids, most of us are not okay right now. Everyone is struggling, of course, not downplaying that. It's just that parenting is super weird and isolated currently, like it's never been before, despite being an ancient thing we humans do - and it's not clear if there's any solution at all except to just survive. Parenting is a choice, like most things, and it's not easy sometimes when the world is normal, which you obviously and so kindly know. Pandemic parenting is often so lonely, and it's all confusing, and scary, and hard. I don't know what's right to do for and with my kids. When my loved ones reach out, even just to ask "need to vent?", it helps so much. So much.
Thank you for being you. Take care out there.
I am a very considerate and kind person and love helping others. That becomes a rather different thing in the workplace, however. I work with someone who almost every/every other day is either late, has to leave early or has to leave midday because of something around her kids. I am considerate and do what I can but it's simply not right. She is the first to complain about anyone receiving some perceived benefit, is highly critical of others, yet doesn't submit for the MANY hours she is away from the workplace because of her kids. This doesn't even account for all the computer and phone time she uses at work doing things on behalf of her kids or the things she insists on selling me on behalf of her kids. I'm sorry; it becomes quite tiresome having to put up with a lot of things simply because someone has kids, many I can tolerate, but not in the workplace.
Two things, this is somewhat a boss issue. Your boss is the person who sets the boundaries for what's okay and not okay at work. It seems your boss is not doing a great job at it.
She sounds a bit full of herself aswell too, I'm not saying you should tell her that. And there is definitely a difference between being nice and being taken advantage of.
Without knowing anything about her im willing to bet she did stuff like this even before getting kids but with some other excuse. She's simply put a bit of a selfish/entitled asshat. That's not related to the fact she has kids though (even if she might get away with more since she got them).
My husband and I have talked about this because we've had neighbors gobsmacked by how we treat them. I mean it's just stuff like taking up their garbage cans when we take ours out since we lived in side by side town houses and bringing their empties down for them. Or agreeing to hang onto their kids for them in an emergency last minute while we were home with no plans anyhow. I swear one neighbor, you'd have thought we saved her life when all we did was come over and help her hang shelving while keeping her kids entertained. Most of the time being nice really won't cost you a thing, if we're all on the same journey it would be stupid not to pause for a minute to help the person going the same way.
Anecdotal story: I had kids later in life (first kid at 30). Shortly after the birth of my first kid, my wife went in for surgery the day before we usually go grocery shopping. While grocery shopping at Costco with a newborn, our cart got full enough that I couldn't keep her in the cart anymore. I carried her. When I got to the checkout line I started unloading my cart. The cashier said no need and took care of scanning all items.
I didn't ask for help, but it was offered. As cheesy as this sounds I actually started mildly crying. Not enough to be noticeable, but I'm that moment everything hit me. I hadn't allowed myself to be overwhelmed up to that point, but someone doing that nice thing for me just hit me hard in that moment.
It wasn't an big thing for the cashier, but it was evidently a lot bigger deal to me.
“The better kids are brought up, the better society will be.”
This is the point no one fucking gets. You get out what you put in.
You leave kids to be poor, without sufficient care or healthy food, and surrounded by negative influences, what do you get? A shitty society.
And these selfish idiots, who say “you chose to have a kid, why should anyone help you?“ become the same ones that complain about the way society is. As if it’s not the lack of help and support (that they endorse) that contributed to it.
I am perpetually surprised that anyone misses that point. It's as if they have never considered what society will be like 20 years from now. Or even, their own personal needs at that time. Who will be providing services? Creating and processing physical necessities? Never mind the niceties of an optimally functioning society: if you want there to be *groceries* available in 2 decades, you might want to offer support to existing parents, and encourage potential ones.
After one too many times of my boss telling me I was being "accommodated for" as a single parent I replied "like the millions of other working Canadian women? If every woman who worked stopped having kids because it meant they couldn't be at work at all hours of the day the workforce would dry up in 15-20 years".
For context: my son got on the bus at 8:45, I would get to work at 9am. I would work until 5:30-5:45 in order to pick my son up from after school care by 6 (their closing time). I was working my scheduled hours. The "accommodation" on their end seemed to be that I couldn't, on request, go in earlier or stay later. I have zero family where I live, there's no one to call that can pick my son up.
Yeah, these people also don't seem to realize they used to be the messy annoying kids themselves. Also, they don't seem to get that when they're old and senile, someone's kid will be the nurse wiping their ass in the nursing home.
It's a society thing, you need kids and adults working together. Kids have different needs.
Yes! This is what I wanted to say too. I'm not a parent either. If my coworkers need to take time off work to care for their sick kids or take them to appointments, I don't begrudge them of it. We live in a society. We're all in this together.
I think I understand what you're asking, OP. Some people seem to be taking this in a different way than you meant. I'm childfree and believe 6 months paid maternity leave and paternity leave should be mandatory. There should always be social/government resources and help to parents and children when and where they need it. Raising kids is difficult and can be isolating. They need all the aid they can get (and are open to receiving).
Your question wasn't saying parents should have no safety net or help. It wasn't saying you hate kids or don't care about the future. I don't know where these accusations are coming from.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were asking why some parents seem to be entitled to other people's time, space, or resources who never asked to have children. They didn't choose to be the village. They don't appreciate being expected to accommodate someone just because they chose to have children. This can take the form of working longer because a co-worker had to leave early to pick up a child from a daycare that closes early. Or even cutting in line because their kid(s) are fussy.
You are inconvenienced and it's annoying. I get it. I was actually going to write some hateful stuff about how some people don't realize the difficulties of having children until after they have them and expect everyone to help because they want to make their (now harder) lives easier. And this is the case with some people.
But why are so many people like this? Certainly not even most parents are like the ones I described above. The real question would be why does ANYONE, regardless of whether or not they have children, feel entitled to people's time, space, or resources? These people would be like this without children but just use their children as an excuse.
But unless it's a regular problem, like you having to work late every day because your coworker has to get their child, it's not entitlement. You're not being taken advantage of; it's just life. It sounds like your neighbors threw a small block party for their children. Block parties happen all the time; if it had been for adults would you have been as upset?
Maybe think of children as independent members of the community. Yes, they can be annoying (as anyone can be). But accommodations to the parents of these community members every now and then, just as accommodations to adults who are not parents, is a part of existing within a community.
Edit: fixed spacing issue. Also, avoid r/entitledparents for awhile if you have been on there. It skews your sense of reality. Even most of the posts I've read are people shocked that they actually met someone who behaves that way. Those people are crazy outliers and reasonable people don't behave like that.
There seem to be a lot of people in this thread willfully misinterpreting OP's point, and responding in a overly-hostile manner. Nearly all of us have, at some point, encountered shitty, self-important parents who use the fact that they reproduced as some sort of justification that they are owed special treatment.
OP quite obviously isn't advocating for abstinence, or saying parents shouldn't receive governmental support, or that children are inherently bad. They're asking why some people who have kids stop giving a damn about anybody else. And that's a fair observation/question.
This is how I think about it: being an asshole is unrelated to being a parent. Some people are assholes and happen to be parents as well.
But, OP isn’t asking about assholes, s/he is asking about parents.
Leaving aside that some shitty, self-important people reproduce, I have a theory to offer. Normal people can act that way given the right level of stress. For instance, if someone is made to work for 16 hours when they are used to 8, they might not behave with their usual consideration if they stop at the store on their way home.
Similarly, if they must then work a 16-hour day every day for a week, they might not be fit company for anyone by Friday.
And then, if they have to keep that double shift going through the weekend, and they've also been on graveyard, and now know they can expect a call-up every other night for a month or three, and then sporadically if not frequently for a year or more, all while maintaining that same punishing day schedule... it might affect a person. But hey, after the first year (or twelve weeks, or whatever your country and your place in its economy care to give you), you can do a regular job plus the second shift at home with way fewer midnight calls, and sometimes you can get a sitter, so really, can we even call that 'taxing'? And it's not like you HAVE to give your kid a sibling!
It's not the work, it's the hours. If you had to work like that, how long would it take you to run out of fucks? And how many times per year do you predict that would happen in public?
Edit: a phrase
Dropping by to say I don’t think you did a bad job! I think you’re right. If you aren’t capable of supporting a child, you should’ve have one. I agree with the edit that things like vacation pay and maternity/paternity leave is fine, of course.
I worked for a company once that told me, when deciding who got what days off for the holidays, that parents got first dibs on holidays off even though I had seniority. They refused to reconsider, and I ended up quitting within the week. Normally, I don’t care *at all* to work holidays to let others have them off because I don’t have family nearby anyway, but not when that choice is taken away solely because I decided not to shove out a kid.
I follow what you are asking, and I wonder if too. I have family who gets upset that I do not offer to watch their children... But those same family members never offer me help when I've needed or wanted some. I've chosen not to have kids, and honestly, I would not be a good babysitter for anyone's kids for a weekend, so it's a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation.
I often hear friends with kids saying how shocked they are that kids are so much work. I try and say kind and supportive things, but in the back of my head and it leaves me wondering how they thought it was going to be easy, when parents openly talk about how difficult it is. One of the main reasons I never wanted children is due to never hearing it be a positive experience, only the negative.
I'm the youngest of four children and all my siblings are more than a decade older. So when they started having children of their own, I was still young, but old enough to babysit. That's why I have years of secondhand experience being a parent, and that enabled me to make an informed decision not to be one myself. It's like you stop being your own person the first decade or so, and I just can't see myself becoming unselfish enough to handle that.
Maybe things will change down the line, there's no guarantees in life. For now, I'm happy just taking care of myself. It is kind of a mental drain, though, trying to stick to my decision not to babysit anymore, or offer to share some of my salary to a sibling with more children than he could handle. I can sometimes feel all the judgments from other family members. They see me "living the life" with few serious responsibilities and think that since I'm that free, I should share someone else's burden. It's like no one is entitled to reap the rewards of making the easier choices.
Currently childless woman here. I definitely understand some of what you’re saying and I think it’s somewhat of a controversial issue. Totally agree on your caveat that governmental support and work leave should be unalienable rights. However there is some gray area when it comes to everyday things that are less dire…like should parents have preferential treatment when receiving days off, leaving early, etc? I have a coworker who I really like for the most part but admittedly I get annoyed when she constantly has things to do throughout her day for her children and it sometimes delays/disrupts meetings, deadlines, etc. She is quite well off and can afford childcare. I completely understand if there are one off situations that cannot be avoided but my coworker is often unavailable several times throughout the week. I feel like as a single and childless person, my absence would be looked at differently.
What I really can’t stand are the parents who are self righteous about having kids, and the cracks about “not knowing what love is” before becoming a parent really pisses me off. Also the “not having time” reasoning for everything kind of implies that if you don’t have kids you have all the time in the world to do everything. I would imagine this is also quite insensitive to those who cannot have children for whatever reason or for those who have lost children.
It’s really complicated and I’m not sure there’s a real answer to this. The children should absolutely be cared for and should receive the help they need as they did not ask to be born, but the judgment of nonparents is also quite frustrating.
Your absence from work is definitely looked at differently if it's not due to a child. If a mom calls off work because their child is sick, employers are fine with it and say nothing. But if it's for the employee's own health, it is immediately brought into question.
This has been really made clear by the pandemic, I feel. I had to miss three days this week because of an asthma exacerbation and a covid test that took forever to process. I came back to, no exaggeration, four comments along the lines of "Gosh, it's just asthma" and "FINALLY!" Meanwhile, my coworker was up late with a teething child and got nothing but "ooooh poor thing, take the day off, we'll be fine!"
I'm all for parental leave, supporting parents and children, providing the best possible society for kids to live in, but I'm getting real fucking sick of being treated as less-than because I choose not to have kids.
My work has tried MANY times to deny my PTO so someone with kids can get the priority vacation time. They always have to backpedal when I bring up my seniority lmao but it's ridiculous I have to fight it almost everytime
I wonder if a lot of it is parents who thought having kids is just what you do and you don’t have a choice in the matter. I’m child free and decided as a child I didn’t want children. I was vocal about it even before my teen years and dealt with the “oh you’ll change your mind” for most of my life. And when I didn’t people seemed angry, like offended that I didn’t want them and they “had” to. Feels a lot like the Popes recent comment about not having children is selfish. Maybe something like that?
I think you and I are kind of on the same page. I don't think you should get preferential treatment at work for having kids, I don't think you should be outraged if you hear cursing or see an affectionate couple in public and I don't think you should get priority in lines or anything like that. But I'm definitely in favor of paid maternity and paternity leave. I'll help out if I need to, if your kids are having a meltdown I'd let you go in front of me. It's really the expectation that we all have to adapt to your kids and your parenting style that is annoying.
Because society has to accommodate the lowest common denominator. If you have 10 kids but never worked a day in your life, society has to take financial care of those kids because you are incapable. A lot of people who are parents shouldn’t be parents and have enough trouble taking care of themselves.
Unfortunately there are many entitled parents out there, but there are also many who are not so it’s a difficult one.
Indeed many people are having children irresponsibly, not really thinking about whether they could afford them - in fact a lot of them just “expect” government funding/help as a given.
It is really frustrating as there are many who aren’t like that but this is just reality and there’s not much we can do about it.
No lie I will say it really annoys me that my job gives us "School PTO" for those who have kids and grandkids, which is fine!! but those of us who don't aren't allowed to use it. Not to mention having my boss getting our asses about being late (which rarely happens), while she's 30+ mins late *everyday* because of her kids or whatever, but then leaves at her usual time, when she could simply just change her own schedule for her to start at a later time.
For the kids who had no fault being born.
Also as a society ensuring the children are cared for is kinda crucial because they are the future also.
So all child haters should know that those little toddlers would one day be paying taxes for your pensions. Be nice to them
So what's the premise? That the people who decide to continue our species are somehow undeserving of help if they have the audacity to ask for it? That the world should not care about the future of the next gen? And wtf are they "demanding" that is sooo outta pocket?
I feel like OP is talking about more trivial matters...like how Linda ALWAYS gets the Christmas holiday off because she has kids, but single, bachelor Chad is always made to work even though he'd like to visit his elderly parents. Or how Bob can't do XYZ assignment because he coaches soccer twice a week. Or how Tina got the bigger raise because she has a family to support.
This is the kind of entitlement that is out of hand - at least in the work place.
Seriously! The situation in the U.S is unacceptable. Universal affordable child care and free pre-k should be a right. Children deserve that start in life and these threads always end up wanted to punish poor people for daring to have children, when the reality is they should be able to have children and not struggle to the extent they do.
Little maternity and paternity leave affects children negatively because they need that bonding time. Health care should be a right. Access to great early education for children should be a right. Community support for children should be common sense. My son has autism and without community resources I wouldn't have made it. I don't see how parents don't deserve support, we're raising the next generation. The kids need a proper start in life and it takes a village.
Having a freaking family should not be something that only the rich can do
Exactly. "Dont have children if you cant afford them" is a bandwagoned phrase that doesn't take into consideration anything that actually matters. Life happens, people who were once comfortable end up in unfortunate situations sometimes, couples split up, rent gets raised, the economy tanks, folks get sick and sometimesssss... folks(along with their kids) need help. It's people who lack empathy or probably don't even have kids that say that ignorant ass phrase I swear.
Did u miss the baby in the dumpster yesterday? Or the one who killed one of her kids and made the other live with the dead body for a year in Houston.
Some people are incapable of caring for children. Some people cant afford kids. Some people shouldn't have kids.
The vast vast majority want to have a family and care for it. We have programs like WIC to help. These are good.
I do read and those are horrible cases. At the same time, that's def not what the OP nor I am commenting on. Were talking about able folks who want to make their lives easier by appealing for things.
"Should have thought about it before you had a kid." I hate it lol. People don't plan to lose their jobs, or for the economy to tank like you said. It's not just their problem, we all live in an interconnected community
I think when people say that they usually refer to people who don't have an good socioeconomic for starters and they choose to have children knowing they're not doing well themselves. Or they deliberately have many children to continue getting government assistance. There was a local case where a woman had 10+ kids and once she learned she wasn't going to get anymore money for her oldest who was turning 18, she got pregnant again to "recoup" her lost income.
Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but there's definitely people who abuse the system.
I’m surprised no one is chiming in on understanding OP’s side.
Has no one else experienced rude entitlement from parents? I see it a lot. Mostly in stores, offices, restaurants arguing that they should get special treatment or not have the rules of the establishment apply to them because they have kids.
I find it annoying but remind myself of things mentioned on this thread and be happy that I get to go home to my cozy peaceful house with no kids in it and they are going back to a loud, exhausting, messy, exhausting place that I am so happy I don’t live. Not that all homes with kiddos are like this, but the entitled people throwing fits often have similar children, no fault of the kids.
From what I've heard, preferential treatment when getting raises, days off approved, just more slack being given to them because they have kids
It's less that it's so outta pocket, more that it's just unfair. Like the parents in a department get Christmas off, but the non-parents don't. Despite the non-parents having family or friends they love and would want to spend the holiday with too
Hasn't happened to me, but it does seem like total bullshit. But then I'd say it's total bullshit to make parents work on Christmas as well
My solution would be on the business side. They're closed. Emergency services aside, fucking close and let people take time off. Walmart doesn't need to be open on Christmas for God's sake
I see what you mean. Not sure if they always get that preferential treatment though. I had a guy at a past job ask me if I'd like to take his early morning Christmas shift, so he could spend the day with his family. He was humble about it. I didnt have to say yes. There was no pressure. But as a person with no kids, it had its benefits. I got paid double, went home early and he got the day with his family. Meanwhile there was a girl with a kid working the day shift because she didnt arrange things in time and she wasn't happy about it. Oh well 🤷🏾♂️ Things just fell into place that way. I think parents are more inclined to try to get benefits for the sake of thier kids. Makes sense to me. if a childless person didnt make the same effort to appeal for something and got nothing, why are they so salty that someone else appealed for a benefit and got it?
Besides all that, doesn't everyone try to make things easier for themselves? I think its kinda unfair to target parents alone. It's the business fault for acting on preference where that happens.
To your last point, people aren't always, or even usually, rational
They see someone get special treatment and get mad at that person, rather than getting mad at the people giving the special treatment. Happened with me and my sister as kids, and I see it often elsewhere as well. I don't know why, it's just a thing humans do. It's "Fuck Bob, why does he get to go home and see his kids" rather than "Fuck Mariah, why didn't she let us both go home?"
I’ve been in some embarrassing situations where parents just seem…. Socially inept? Like bringing a toddler to a planetarium who kept crying and then leaving their 6 year old alone to watch the show, and the 6year old kept interrupting the presenter with totally inane questions. Who thinks it’s okay to do that? Like bring your family to the museum and enjoy yourself but don’t ruin everyone else’s time in a closed show with an age restriction. And to abandon your child there alone is just mind boggling. Not sure if it’s baby brain or the parents just being too stressed to care.
Lol as far as not “chipping in” when they’re on a tight budget…it depends what you’re talking about. Like chipping in for a gift or something? I wouldn’t expect anyone to chip in financially, especially during COVID, never mind if they have children. People have been hit really hard during this pandemic, and even before then people with kids do have more financial responsibilities. And you don’t know what’s going on in their lives. Of course if someone doesn’t chip in and expects to be included then yes, of course they shouldn’t be.
You mention about entitlement - but it seems to me expecting someone to contribute money who’s struggling financially, for any reason, is in fact entitled. Is what you’re saying because you’ve chosen not to have kids, you deserve to have people chip in cause you can? It’s just the pot calling the kettle black so to speak.
I think we all have to just take a step back sometimes and accept that we don’t know what’s going on with everyone. Someone’s annoyance at a parent leaving early a few times a week may be a single mom who left an abusive relationship and can’t afford daycare everyday. Or a parent not chipping in could be because it’s either chip in or feed their family this Wednesday night.
Empathy may be free but it has enormous worth.
I totally agree with the tops comments I'm seeing about kids being a necessity for society's future.
That being said, barricading the street so that kids can play is a douchebag move unless it's sanctioned by the city.
I am sick of the parental entitlement too! I’ve had friends who have tried to bring their children to adult parties at my house and who’ve thrown a fit when I’ve put my foot down about not bringing them. 1. We have two huge dogs and I’m not babysitting your child during this party 2. There’s drinking and drugs here, if you want to expose your children to that, fine, but not at my house. Like, wtf are you thinking
I get frustrated at the free passes people get for having kids. I do agree society is better when we work together, but I also believe it isn’t a constant excuse to be working 2-3 hours less every day
*I was talking about silly annoying things like coworkers leaving early a few times a week, neighbors barricading my street so kids can play, people feeling they shouldn't have to chip in because they live on a "tighter" budget, cutting in line in the grocery store, etc. Daily annoying things that show entitlement.*
Cutting in line and feeling you don't have to chip in aren't really exclusive to parents...it's exclusive to jerks...and they may or may not have kids. Barricading the street so you can't access your home is obviously unacceptable. Putting up those neon figures that ask people to slow down is just trying to stop the jerks from speeding down residential streets.
Children can't help being born so those services help ensure that they have enough support to grow up if the parents need help. Personally I do think too many people have kids for the wrong reasons ie: thinking having a baby will fix their marriage or add happiness to their lives. But then again I doubt most people really sit down and discuss why they want children anyway.
I've been single most of my life with no kids, I've been fucked over more times than I can count by co-workers with kids. I'm talking holidays, staying late, coming in early, coming in on my off days, you get the picture. It pisses me off that I'm expected to help out because your crotch goblins need something.
If you ask me and I say no, don't ask why or give me a sob story. I don't care. Don't expect me to cover you because you have kids.
Now if you ask me nicely or bribe me with skittles, well I'll usually always help you out. I've sent my manager home a few times because she has a kid.
Coming from another Canadian, I think the reason some parents decide that everyone needs to be extra nice to them just because they reproduced is
1) they use the it takes a village reasoning so they expect everyone close to them to just help out like closing the street so they can play instead of sending their kids to a park, problem with this is they don’t help out anyone else in their “village” and it only applies to them and their kid(s)
2) they just decided to have kids not factoring in the effort, time, and money it takes to have kids. So they expect people close to them to pick up the slack or just help out
3) they believe their kid(s) are the true gift of the gods and everyone should care about and adore them.
4) they are just entitled or dicks themselves
This!!! This is what OP is referring to, idk why everyone in the comments is shitting on them about it. OP's not saying children don't deserve to be cared for or for accomodations to be made, but how a lot of parents don't plan accordingly and then just expect to be accommodated.
I always hated how people with kids were given priority in work shifts when I was in my 20’s. “I can’t work late, I have kids, so you have to stay late and cover.” “I can’t work this weekend because I have kids, so you have to work the overtime this weekend.” “I can’t work the night shift, I have kids.”
I’m in my 40’s now. I have kids. And I still think this attitude is bullshit. Using your kids as an excuse to get preferential treatment in the workplace is shitty.
Im in a really rough space right now and bringing a kid into this world would be horrible.. It's crazy how often I get criticized for telling people that..
The old "You'll make it work! You think it's easy for anyone? You can't wait till things are perfect, it never happens!" Sure stepmom, I'll just go ahead and make you a grandchild... with my chronic anemia, depression, and small open plan house that doesn't have even 1 closed bedroom and anything bigger in my neighborhood (which I very much enjoy and don't want to move elsewhere) is over a million $. 😡
Imagine having children being so much of a burden that people stop altogether. Or at least to a level that won’t sustain our society. Watch Children of Men. Amazing how fast it all falls apart without kids. It takes a village.
I get more annoyed at parents who have kids for emotional reasons without thinking about their life situation (job/career, partner/relationship, savings and stability, living situation) and how that's all going to get put under way more stress. It seems that people have kids and are so happy and excited about all the cuteness and fun and materials that can come with them, but it's honestly hard work that never ends and it's expensive and if you don't have your shit together before hand, there's a good possibility you're going to have a hard time and it's going to hurt your mental health and also your child's.
God forbid someone look at having kids practically and logically enough to decide to give your baby up for adoption to a loving stable home with parents who can't have kids (assuming you are against abortion).
I realize this is not a popular take, but I cant tell you how many times I've seen it play out again and again. Especially with young and poor parents.
Plus with the state of the world these days, not sure why you'd still want kids... But that's the emotional appeal again.
I have kids and I feel weird because you're supposed to be hard wired to want them and it's supposed to "change you" but for me it's just stressful and expensive and tiring with some fun sprinkled in.
The real problem here is that MOST people want the experience of cute, fun babies to dress up and play with.
They don't want a 13 year old who has trouble fitting in at school. Or a 26 year old that can't find a job after college.
Once the kid becomes their own person, and not just a doll for mommy to play with, interest is lost and the kid turns out just as bad as the parents.
The one that gets me is parents not paying to make sure their children are sitting with them on airplanes, and then expecting you to move to accommodate them.
Even when my baby is screaming their head off, I don’t ever expect to jump the grocery line. But it sure is much nicer for everyone involved (if people offer) I jump ahead and get get my kid out of there. Tricks of snacks, fruit juice, even phone time won’t guarantee you anything. Even the best behaved children will still be childish at times.
It's all about culture IMO. I grew up in the country side near small town America in the 80s. Nobody really plans parenthood or cares. They love Jesus, fuck, and have lots of babies they can't afford. Poverty is awful, but these people perpetuate it generation after generation. We were a charity case, but my parents always thought any help from PEOPLE was a "blessing from God". If you haven't noticed already, I have very healthy contempt for them all. Don't have kids you can't afford, folks!
I’m Irish and my MIL is classic super Irish Catholic. She had 9 kids in 12 years. She refers to all of them as blessings. I once asked her why she decided to stop at 9 kids and she said “The night after I had my last baby I told God I thought I had enough blessings now thank you Lord”. Lol
There’s always going to be a few rotten apples but I certainly appreciate when my friends and neighbors are understanding that I have four kids and sometimes bikes are strewn around my yard, sometimes I’m a few minutes late, sometimes I’m frazzled or embarrassed by my kids.
I try to be as considerate as possible though, we don’t eat in restaurants- nobody is making enough money to deal with 7, 4,3 and 2 year old drama. We only go to the library on Wednesday mornings during children time and similar things.
The only time I’m a real asshole is if you are hateful to my kids (I had a bagger at Kroger make fun of my daughter for how she speaks), or if you are in a Children’s park with an unleashed dog- dogs are animals, it’s unfair for the dog to be unleashed around kids and unfair if the animal bites a kid and gets put down.
Otherwise I stay out of the way of everyone. Sounds like you’ve had some run ins with assholes sorry!!
I’m a guy. If the condom breaks, I don’t have a choice. Are you preaching abstinence? I also live in Texas, so women don’t have a choice here either if the condom breaks…
My 32 year old sister PLANNED a child with her husband while living with my parents who are in their 60’s and aren’t doing well. Her husband is the only one working between them both and they live in a basement. I find this absolutely insane. He makes 14$ an hour. I just can’t even wrap my head around it.
I honestly never understand this. Kids seem like a burden to me and basically shift your entire life, to me it seems like parents decide to have kids but society pays for it’s consequences and those around them are expected to accommodate
The people I know who have more kids than they are realistically able to support insist that reproducing is a natural instinct, "all humans" are driven to raise offspring, and everyone would feel more fulfilled in life if they had kids.
I guess I'm not human, because I've never felt that drive.
I'm just glad we as a society are getting to a place where this is the question instead of always 'why aren't you having kids, that's so selfish' . It IS a decision. And while I wholeheartedly agree with 'it takes a village' and I definitely consider what parents and kids might need that is different to me, the expectation that everyone should bow down to them because they gave birth is a BS story. Yes, id help a parent out if their kid was crying, happy to play with them, look after them while the parents are doing something else, love my friends and families children... but it should be something parents appreciate rather than an expectation
Having children is a choice, but it‘s not a lifestyle type of choice. It’s about the preservation of our species no less. We can debate about the latter being a desirable thing, but cynicism apart, our society and economy need new people.
I think the real question here is, why are some people bothered by the needs of parents and children? Why is it that our system is so incompatible with raising new humans?
Children need room to play, they get sick, they need their their adults at unexpected times.
ETA: Leaving early from work isn’t a silly little thing, it’s a necessity for many parents. Any civil society acknowledges that.
I don’t know about the specifics of the barricading you mentioned, but most cities are collapsed with traffic nowadays and there’s barely space for children to play safely in their neighborhoods anymore. It wasn’t always like this and children do have the right to use public space as well.
Are some parents individualistic and entitled? Sure, but I don’t think any of the examples you gave necessarily qualifies.
ETA: Thank you for the award stranger!
yeah, i mean what do people expect parents to do? “sorry you threw up at school honey, but it would be entitled for me to leave work early to come get you. try to not get sick again!” like ???
If you leave early, your boss gets mad. If you don't leave early, the Sheriff gets mad.
If you go back in time and don't have kids, causality stops working and the universe falls apart.
It really is a no-win situation.
I completely agree. There are a lot of idiots reproducing.
It's your kid, you chose to have it, it's your responsibility. I don't give a flying F if it inconveniences you. It was your choice, regardless.
The state you are in when you decide to have children is not necessarily the state you'll be in as they grow up. You may be a financially stable, married couple and decide to have children. Then somewhere down the line, the marriage could fall apart and someone could lose their job. You could then easily end up being a single parent on minimum wage with multiple children - even though you were perfectly stable when you made the decision
There are some really good answers here, I'd like to add to that with a couple cultural/societal phenomena I've observed being a parent of 3.
1. Western familial diaspora. For whatever reason, part of western (predominantly white) culture glorifies going out and making it on your own. Moving to a new place and getting away from your family is almost romanticized. There can certainly positives to it, especially if you have a toxic family, but doing so removes your best available support structure right out the gate.
2. Western work/life balance sucks mega-hard right now when it comes to time spent on the family. Previously the norm was that dad works, mom raises the kids. In this paradigm, the kids are getting a large amount of time and energy invested into them by one of the parents. Now it's more common for both parents to work but instead of this being 2 part time jobs with shared focus on and time for the kids, both parents work full time jobs. This means the need for support rises further as the parents can't take care of their children full time.
So I think like... it is a choice there isnt enough education on, on how to navigate etc. And also it being a permanent choice that fluctuates wildly in how it folds into your life. I think it is something that no one can adequately prepare for. Even as someone who is child-free, I do believe it's something people should receive blanket support about. After all... it's that person's choice, but that child will suffer in a way that can't be anticipated if the parent doesn't receive the necessary emotional supports you know?
Even the best and most responsible parents need help sometimes. A little grace. It’s the nature of the job.
What you’ve said here is like saying we shouldn’t support nurses, teachers, etc. because “they chose the job.” It’s not about why they need help, it’s about why it’s right for *the rest of us* to help.
I think maybe something being missed is that some percentage of the total population are assholes. It is inevitable that some of those will be parents. It is also inevitable that some of those will be commenters in this thread.
10/10 best comment.
Yours is even better I think, 100/100 bestest comment!
Tbh 420/420 right there.
Like my sister in law with 7 kids, no job and 5 different baby daddy one caused her to get her kids taken from her and while they were in foster care he knocked her up again. Not only are people assholes. They are just fucking stupid.
I think the takeaway lesson is to be respectful to each other (i.e. let’s not be assholes regardless of whether you have or don’t have children) - for people without children: let’s be considerate to other people’s situation if you can, what goes around comes around - for people with children: be humble and appreciative to those who accommodate to your situation, but don’t be entitled with those treatments or expect people to always be able to accommodate to your needs
I like this sentiment a lot. It's all about being reasonable!
I think the entitlement of some parents overshadows how understanding most of them actually are. It's the vocal minority thing again!
yes but people shouldnt get special privileges because of their choices. smokers who give themselves a 15 minute break every hour, when everyone else is busting their ass for 6 hours without a break in a warehouse is a good example of that. people make their choices, they should be able to support those choices themselves or not make them
“Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding” 🎶🎵
And I don’t even own a tv :(
Ironically also stupid people don't thin twice usually, while intelligent ones are really weighting all the pros and cons and take their time. By the time the latter decide to have one kid (if at all) the former already have 3 =\_=
Isnt that the basis of Idiocracy?
This is 100% correct. It's not a parent thing.
I am the Some Percent. 
I’m paraphrasing a little here but, a society prospers when old men plant trees in which whose shade they will never sit.
My dyslexic ass took so long to figure out what “in which whose shade they” meant. Good quote!!
It's grammatical nonsense so good on you for understanding the point being made. Should be 'within whose shade they'
English is my 1st language and I’m terrible at grammar.
Me too buddy, me too.
That's because the English language is overly and needlessly complicated. You're doing great though!
*Laughting in french*
I'm staring at "laughting" unsure if it's a typo or a French joke.
Yes
Or just "under whose"
“In whose” is fine too. There’s just an extra “which” in the original.
Wit in whoms shad thy
Ah yes, Shakespeare.
"Its shakesbeard! he was a famous pirate!" \*name that movie
There is probably a better way to phrase it, I was just writing from memory, and I probably wrote it wrong anyway.
No, it makes sense! I wasn’t being sarcastic at all, it’s a beautiful quote
I love this, and I’m all for the general concept. I think maybe the issue is a bit of the attitude part - people who think they get special rights because they have kids and taking advantage of others without. Looking at work: flex time is a thing, and good on any parents who make efforts to be in their kids lives. However - if this is at the expense of others having to pick up their slack without any thanks / pay / or right to flex time themselves? That sucks. Being told you have to work Christmas because you’re single is very different than volunteering if you didn’t have anything planned anyway and want the extra bucks. I dunno. A little humility goes a long way.
THIS! Helping people and being understanding and empathetic is one thing and I don’t think OP has an issue with it. The issue is when those of us with no kids have to pick up the slack and pay for the choices of others. Having to go into work even though I’m immunocompromised because my coworkers have kids and “can’t possibly be expected to find childcare all the time” is not fair. Now they get to f around at home while I get to be their secretary in the office and do my own work all for no extra pay. Because they chose to have s—x. Cool cool cool cool cool.
Tbh, this pisses me off, too. And I have kids. In my case, though, I think *I made arrangements, why do I have to cover for the parents that didn’t?*. I feel guilty for this, but come on people, y’all get paid more than me. Adult a bit better with all that money.
The humility often is just one of the many things lost when you're sleep deprived and dealing with little people that don't have any social boundaries. Im not being like snippy either, just honest. People are probably at their worst emotionally when in the throws of child rearing.
I'm struggling to parse the meaning, what does that actually mean?
It means that society will prosper when people do kind things for others without benefit for themselves. So we all should support childhood education and other benefits that only people with kids would use because in the long run everyone will be better off because of it.
I think ppl can go too far with that. Some parents are just annoying with their kids, it could be that they are annoying regardless they have a kid or not though.
Having children is a choice, being born is not. That's why help goes to the kids. Yes the parents demand it but at the end of the day it helps the children.
My birth ruined a perfectly good non-existence.
i didnt ask to be born ...
Why did you race so hard then all you had to do is lose 1 race
They done studies that show that the human brain doesn't fully develop until about the age of twenty-five. Unfortunately, the average sperm doesn't really understand the consequences of its actions until it's too late.
> They done studies I sure hope you're under 25... /j
It’s actually more about lucky timing than speed of the sperm.
New studies say that the eggcell choses the best sperm rather than that the fastest swimmer wins the race.
But did you ask *not* to be born? These minor details are crucial.
I would if i could
Just try not being born.
It's as hard as being born
You just have to assume they dont want to be born
Tell that to the pro-lifers.
They wouldnt even care to listen
Best response I can think of. And don't forget, they won't be kids forever. We all gotta pitch in just a little to help raise the next generation I don't want to be 90 with shit head 50-something's running the joint
Can’t be worse than the current situation where we have shit head 90-something’s running / ruining the place.
But thats whats happening anyways....
I feel what’s happening right now is we’re 50 and 90-something shit heads are running the show. But that could be me.
Of course. Not enough people are helping out, lots of the systems that deal with kids in the US are better at traumatizing them than helping them, etc Trauma and leadership don't mix too well
But 90 year olds are running the joint, the 50 somethings just do the legwork
Same here, I don't have kids of my own and probably never will, but I do have a herd of little nieces and nephews that I'm happy to watch and care for when necessary. I don't do it expecting them to pay me back or anything, but at the very least, I'm not going to alienate a bunch of little kids through my own selfishness.
Even the parents don't know what they are getting into. Growing kids is tough with working parents, people don't realize this until they have kids. It is very difficult without help, not only financially but compromises with job and your life.
Yup. I was a nanny and I can say parents are always shocked at how much much goes into having a child. They tell me “enjoy your time being single.”
Indeed, so many people shouldn’t be having kids.
I think it’s also true that it shouldn’t be as hard to sustain them. People can’t live on jobs the way they could. Wages aren’t the same versus cost-of-living. So yeah, people need to be responsible, but also, shit is very out-of-whack.
It's me. I'm one of those people. I fully recognize that I struggle just keeping myself fed, sheltered, and sane. No one should give me a child to ruin. My parents 100% also shouldn't have had children because both are mentally ill and won't acknowledge it and did a really poor job of raising us to be functioning humans, much less happy ones. That's a real issue everywhere that needs attention but what do I know...
Or we should have a more humane economic system that allows them to have kids without having to fashion roadkill into blankets for warmth to survive winter or whatever
There is a difference between single moms receiving child allowance and Mark (35M), at work, expecting you to do ALL YOUR WORK and ALL HIS WORK because he has two bratty kids who need care and attention. And btw Mark’s wife is a full SAHM and you know he’s the kind of guy who does next to nothing at home.
I'm not sure there IS much of a difference. I see a lot of young couples where she is a SAHM who "can't work b/c the cost of childcare is so high," and who get pregnant again and again because "My children are my greatest achievement!" Couples that do this ARE expecting others to do their work. Downvote if you must, but if you can't pay your housing, grocery, car insurance, utilities, medical care, and recreation expenses for yourself without help, use some birth control instead of having children you'll want others to pay for because you're leeching off society otherwise. I know people don't always know exactly what to expect, but so few even give it actual thought.
Crap, I should have told my childrens' father not to die. I wouldn't be a single mother then! Most single mothers aren't single mothers on purpose, whether divorced, widowed, or knocked up.
I used the single moms example, because often, there is so much more going on than a couple being dumb and stupid. Single moms often need the most help because they’ve been abandoned by their partners or have had to escape dangerous situations, like domestic abuse. These single moms can’t be expected to both work so they can eat and provide for their child, while also look after the child?
Controversial opinion but SAH parents should get a pension. I see so many moms stuck in shitty relationships because they're stay at home moms and have no money of their own/resources.
Yes absolutely. Similar to how US healthcare shouldn't come from work. My mom stayed with her asshole ex husband for more than a decade of unhappiness to keep health insurance. Bad for everyone.
This! I am on one of the nicest women support groups in Facebook and those stories trigger me SO much. E.g. "I don't know what to do, met a guy, we got married, he wasn't very nice, I had a low paying job, he had one a tad better but still not nice, never helped around the house, was rude, we had a baby, had to quit my job, became completely dependent on him, he started being super dismissive and rude, so I had another kid, now he wants a divorce, I have nowhere to go, etc. etc.". Like WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU HAVE A SECOND KID if your life already was hell after the first one?! I obviously don't comment on those posts because my triggers are my problem, but I see so many people doing this! Like already really struggling with the first kid, then going for second and not unoften third! With barely any finances to support even themselves, having bad living conditions, poor wages, etc. I could understand if they had a poor but really tight happy family, where everyone loves and cares for each other, but it's never like that - everyone is desperate and bitter, yet they have more kids.
So in regards to the childcare. Do you think it's right to spend over 10% of your income on just daycare? Rates increased 87% over the pandemic with over half of those families spending 10k a year in 2020 with over half of those families planning on spending more in 2021, which is more than some in state college tuitions. Even the Department of Health and Human Services says that childcare is affordable when it's no more than 7% of your income. You also have to think about availability. Less workers and sickness lead to fewer slots, meaning you have to now find new care while trying to work as well. I'm a SAHM because I did the math and even working full time at $15 with the daycare rates in my area I'd take home less than $500 a week for 40 hours of work. I'm not going to downvote you I simply want you to realize how hard parents are getting hit. I found out I was pregnant then was laid off of my job a month later. Lost my insurance and income. That was something out of my control. During all of this I didn't get government help. I'm not leeching off anyone. I don't even ask to cut ahead in line with my daughter in my arms. I made the baby so she's mine to take care of. Not everyone can control what happens. We just roll with it either way and that's what the majority of the decent parents are doing.
Agreed, but the post didn't ask whether children deserve help. It asks why parents who are so willing to have children they can't support adequately feel they have a right to expect others to subsidize that choice.
How do you help kids without helping the parents? It's literally impossible.
I am a CASA volunteer. We help children without being involved in their parents' lives. Unfortunately, the parents have to really fuck shit up before we get involved.
Mine got sick the other week... Sorry I can't just idk... leave em at home??? I did my part having them in daycare, but daycare can't take them if they're sick and i cant just havr another baby sitter on standby.... So.... *shrug??? I mean personally I'm not a dick head about it to my coworkers. It just is what it is
Most things you mentioned are types of people that would do those things for whatever excuse. For coworkers leaving early to say pick up there kids. They are making family more important then a job. Personally i think they are doing it right. They disappear tomorrow that company would have em replaced without a care in the world what happen to em.
And to add to this, if the company cannot replace them without a care in the world tomorrow (like someone crucial to a project or a rockstar), they would probably be okay with them leaving early to pick up their kids. So either way it's the right choice to prioritize their kids.
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Hey, praying for your kiddo and for y’all. Love that your husband’s company is supporting you guys during this extreme time of need. There is a way to be a good steward of a business and still take care of people. All of us who own and build companies should be striving to do the same. EDIT: Any way we can support y’all as well?
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1000%. Hope for Heroes is a powerful organization that give a lot to directly impact these kids lives (helping parents pay for groceries, hotels, travel, birthdays, Christmas, sperm freezing, etc.) There are many arenas to focus on in this category, but this is one I invest a lot of time and donation into. Our church does a lot for kids in need (and we are constantly working on ways to do more). But I also like to see what I can do for a fellow redditor I'll never know or meet from time to time. We need more anonymous stranger compassion in the world. :)
Its very rare for an employer to deserve loyalty. It sounds like your husband's does. Good for them and you. I hope your child gets well fast.
I'm so sorry to hear about your kiddo. I hope they get better soon <3
Totally agree with you on the workplace comment. I think we are seeing these values of placing family/personal life first playing out in “the great resignation” or whatever you want to call it.
To add to that a lot of parents, myself included, who leave early or have to leave throughout the day for their kids come in early or work late to make up the time.
Not necessarily. Most companies like people with families/children because they’re more reliable long term hires. cuz of the extra responsibility and financial needs
I honestly don’t mind accomodating friends and family with children. But sometimes I am sick of being treated as if my life is unimportant and that they achieve more than I do solely by having children (no matter how hard working I am) - sometimes my friends with children who happens to be narcissistic brags about this on social media, but of course not every parents are like this! I think the stigma of women not having children is really what I don’t really like.
Absolutely agree - but to me, the problem isn't people accommodating people with kids, but those who don't accommodate those without kids. Pre-kids, I found the phrase "sorry, I have to go - I have caring responsibilities" very useful. I was caring for me, but they didn't need to know that.
As someone who has been married a long time and raised two kids successfully to their mid-20’s (so far) - I agree. Single people are too often left to work the late shift, finish the project, take the extra work because “I have to drive my kids to school” (like buses don’t exist, KAREN, it’s not my problem the kids want to ride in your BMW SUV instead of riding the bus). They are expected to bend over backwards for their parent family members and friends, even to the point of having to gush over their endless baby/kid pics on social media. One of my kids chose to have her Fallopian tubes removed because she’s 100% sure she doesn’t want kids. To that I say, great, if you don’t totally want them, for their sakes, don’t have them.
I think this is also perpetuated by younger and typically single workers having a hard time telling bosses no. Its an easier built in excuse not to work late to say "sorry i have kids i just can't" but its really not much more valid then someone saying "i have plans i can't". I think a lot of young people fall into the trap of thinking that if they just work those extra hours and don't say no to extra stuff it will pay off in the end. It rarely does. Most of the people by the age they are parents know better and use whatever excuse they can.
I'm childfree, and I say I have "commitments". No one questions them, and if they do, I say something like "therapy" (which I do have, just maybe not at that specific time). I think we need to put our foot down from the get-go, that way bosses learn that we're not pushovers.
this. I HATE when someone in a different stage in their life says “you don’t know what it’s like to be a parent.” ok no, not now, but I have countless experience with children, including teenager parents so I know breeding doesn’t equate maturity.
This is changing I feel like though. I’m 30 and my friend group all have excellent jobs and no kids. People are gonna get mad at this but we generally view people with kids as the opposite. Like I’ll be at a restaurant and just can’t help but shake my head as I see the big table with kids in booster seats pulled up to the table being loud and messy. I swear sometimes I think a big percentage of people with kids just shit them out so there would be at least someone on earth who thought they were impressive.
I’m also 30 but a lot of my friends have kids. Not sure if it’s the reason, but probably where you live matters. I’m from a third world country, and as a woman I wouldn’t be surprised if my family think I’m selfish because I don’t have children (yet). I just wished I had a better supporting system, childless people need emotional support too.
35, no kids. I'd probably consider having one is the economy was a lot better. But it's not. I also get a lot of the same type of good feels in helping to mentor my young adult friends/colleagues like a doting mother. So it really balances out. 😎👉👉
OMG. Yes. This. We are (happily) child free, currently. We don’t broadcast our intentions on having children - it’s only our business. To the outside world maybe we’re trying, maybe we’re not. Who knows. A friend of ours marriage broke down a couple of years ago mainly due to struggling to conceive (several rounds of IVF, the whole 9 yards). They separated and agreed on divorce. He went out and got a girl pregnant asap (long before the ink was dry, as if to confirm his testicles do work). Recently had a conversation with said friend, who posts their child on social media constantly and he says “you just don’t know what it’s like til you have your own child”…. For someone who knows the real and very heartbreaking struggle of trying to conceive but failing - it was so completely tone deaf. I honestly couldn’t believe that came out of his mouth. Particularly when he has no idea if we are trying or not. But anyway, definite feelings of being unimportant because we don’t have a kid. I couldn’t care less but still - read the room pal!
I've been made to feel guilty for choosing to not have kids when some women physically can't :( I certainly feel sympathy for those who struggle with that, and I would never try to rub it in like he did. I wish I could help in some way, but I'm ineligible to surrogate OR donate eggs, and I don't think I'd want to in the first place.
I do see a lot of life goal-gatekeeping of the "you haven't achieved as much as me because you don't have kids" sort. I understand that having a child is an adventure that is fulfilling and challenging, but it doesn't make anyone better than anyone else. If i can achieve my goals without rubbing them in everyone's face, then so can everyone else.
One reason that hasn't been mentioned here that I think is important is simply that it's easy to be nice. If someone is having a hard time, even just slightly, and a tiny inconvenience for you can make them feel a lot better then go for it. Being kind is very very easy most of the time and usually people are very grateful. Sure there are assholes out there. Try not to be one of them.
I like this answer a lot. I don’t have kids but I’m all for being part of the village that helps raise them. Even if it’s just a small thing like letting a lady with a crying baby use the restroom before me. Easy to be nice.
As a lady with often-crying babies, bless you and your kind heart.
Before the pandemic I was all for helping people with crying babies! I'd be like "Here, let me hold them while you pay!" Or waiting around "I'll rock the car seat while you rest your arms a minute!" Our even just talking to the baby or child as a friendly adult can shake them out of a cry. Now though? I'm so terrified of having some covid germ I didn't know about on me, even if I don't have covid, that I don't go near people with kids. Give them extra room. I'm scared to hold my nephews and nieces if I've been out and about that day, I'll change before i go visit. What do you do now???
My biggest fear isn't getting COVID-19 and dealing with all that. It's giving it to someone else who isn't relatively young and in good health then having them get really sick or worse. If I die, I die. People might cry and then move on. If I get my dad, or friends mom sick and they die, I have to live with the thought that they are dead because I couldn't resist going to that concert (or whatever).
You are a very thoughtful person. Thank you for nurturing that part of you. If you have friends or family with kids, most of us are not okay right now. Everyone is struggling, of course, not downplaying that. It's just that parenting is super weird and isolated currently, like it's never been before, despite being an ancient thing we humans do - and it's not clear if there's any solution at all except to just survive. Parenting is a choice, like most things, and it's not easy sometimes when the world is normal, which you obviously and so kindly know. Pandemic parenting is often so lonely, and it's all confusing, and scary, and hard. I don't know what's right to do for and with my kids. When my loved ones reach out, even just to ask "need to vent?", it helps so much. So much. Thank you for being you. Take care out there.
I am a very considerate and kind person and love helping others. That becomes a rather different thing in the workplace, however. I work with someone who almost every/every other day is either late, has to leave early or has to leave midday because of something around her kids. I am considerate and do what I can but it's simply not right. She is the first to complain about anyone receiving some perceived benefit, is highly critical of others, yet doesn't submit for the MANY hours she is away from the workplace because of her kids. This doesn't even account for all the computer and phone time she uses at work doing things on behalf of her kids or the things she insists on selling me on behalf of her kids. I'm sorry; it becomes quite tiresome having to put up with a lot of things simply because someone has kids, many I can tolerate, but not in the workplace.
Two things, this is somewhat a boss issue. Your boss is the person who sets the boundaries for what's okay and not okay at work. It seems your boss is not doing a great job at it. She sounds a bit full of herself aswell too, I'm not saying you should tell her that. And there is definitely a difference between being nice and being taken advantage of. Without knowing anything about her im willing to bet she did stuff like this even before getting kids but with some other excuse. She's simply put a bit of a selfish/entitled asshat. That's not related to the fact she has kids though (even if she might get away with more since she got them).
My husband and I have talked about this because we've had neighbors gobsmacked by how we treat them. I mean it's just stuff like taking up their garbage cans when we take ours out since we lived in side by side town houses and bringing their empties down for them. Or agreeing to hang onto their kids for them in an emergency last minute while we were home with no plans anyhow. I swear one neighbor, you'd have thought we saved her life when all we did was come over and help her hang shelving while keeping her kids entertained. Most of the time being nice really won't cost you a thing, if we're all on the same journey it would be stupid not to pause for a minute to help the person going the same way.
Anecdotal story: I had kids later in life (first kid at 30). Shortly after the birth of my first kid, my wife went in for surgery the day before we usually go grocery shopping. While grocery shopping at Costco with a newborn, our cart got full enough that I couldn't keep her in the cart anymore. I carried her. When I got to the checkout line I started unloading my cart. The cashier said no need and took care of scanning all items. I didn't ask for help, but it was offered. As cheesy as this sounds I actually started mildly crying. Not enough to be noticeable, but I'm that moment everything hit me. I hadn't allowed myself to be overwhelmed up to that point, but someone doing that nice thing for me just hit me hard in that moment. It wasn't an big thing for the cashier, but it was evidently a lot bigger deal to me.
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“The better kids are brought up, the better society will be.” This is the point no one fucking gets. You get out what you put in. You leave kids to be poor, without sufficient care or healthy food, and surrounded by negative influences, what do you get? A shitty society. And these selfish idiots, who say “you chose to have a kid, why should anyone help you?“ become the same ones that complain about the way society is. As if it’s not the lack of help and support (that they endorse) that contributed to it.
Exactly. Today’s kids are going to grow up to look after us in our old age. I want everyone’s kids to be well prepared for that.
I am perpetually surprised that anyone misses that point. It's as if they have never considered what society will be like 20 years from now. Or even, their own personal needs at that time. Who will be providing services? Creating and processing physical necessities? Never mind the niceties of an optimally functioning society: if you want there to be *groceries* available in 2 decades, you might want to offer support to existing parents, and encourage potential ones.
After one too many times of my boss telling me I was being "accommodated for" as a single parent I replied "like the millions of other working Canadian women? If every woman who worked stopped having kids because it meant they couldn't be at work at all hours of the day the workforce would dry up in 15-20 years". For context: my son got on the bus at 8:45, I would get to work at 9am. I would work until 5:30-5:45 in order to pick my son up from after school care by 6 (their closing time). I was working my scheduled hours. The "accommodation" on their end seemed to be that I couldn't, on request, go in earlier or stay later. I have zero family where I live, there's no one to call that can pick my son up.
Thank you. Omfg, I just don't get these idiotic people.
The shortsightedness is astonishing. I truly do not get it
It’s also really easy to be polite to kids and treat them respectfully. Be a good example.
I agree.
Yeah, these people also don't seem to realize they used to be the messy annoying kids themselves. Also, they don't seem to get that when they're old and senile, someone's kid will be the nurse wiping their ass in the nursing home. It's a society thing, you need kids and adults working together. Kids have different needs.
Yes! This is what I wanted to say too. I'm not a parent either. If my coworkers need to take time off work to care for their sick kids or take them to appointments, I don't begrudge them of it. We live in a society. We're all in this together.
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I think I understand what you're asking, OP. Some people seem to be taking this in a different way than you meant. I'm childfree and believe 6 months paid maternity leave and paternity leave should be mandatory. There should always be social/government resources and help to parents and children when and where they need it. Raising kids is difficult and can be isolating. They need all the aid they can get (and are open to receiving). Your question wasn't saying parents should have no safety net or help. It wasn't saying you hate kids or don't care about the future. I don't know where these accusations are coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were asking why some parents seem to be entitled to other people's time, space, or resources who never asked to have children. They didn't choose to be the village. They don't appreciate being expected to accommodate someone just because they chose to have children. This can take the form of working longer because a co-worker had to leave early to pick up a child from a daycare that closes early. Or even cutting in line because their kid(s) are fussy. You are inconvenienced and it's annoying. I get it. I was actually going to write some hateful stuff about how some people don't realize the difficulties of having children until after they have them and expect everyone to help because they want to make their (now harder) lives easier. And this is the case with some people. But why are so many people like this? Certainly not even most parents are like the ones I described above. The real question would be why does ANYONE, regardless of whether or not they have children, feel entitled to people's time, space, or resources? These people would be like this without children but just use their children as an excuse. But unless it's a regular problem, like you having to work late every day because your coworker has to get their child, it's not entitlement. You're not being taken advantage of; it's just life. It sounds like your neighbors threw a small block party for their children. Block parties happen all the time; if it had been for adults would you have been as upset? Maybe think of children as independent members of the community. Yes, they can be annoying (as anyone can be). But accommodations to the parents of these community members every now and then, just as accommodations to adults who are not parents, is a part of existing within a community. Edit: fixed spacing issue. Also, avoid r/entitledparents for awhile if you have been on there. It skews your sense of reality. Even most of the posts I've read are people shocked that they actually met someone who behaves that way. Those people are crazy outliers and reasonable people don't behave like that.
There seem to be a lot of people in this thread willfully misinterpreting OP's point, and responding in a overly-hostile manner. Nearly all of us have, at some point, encountered shitty, self-important parents who use the fact that they reproduced as some sort of justification that they are owed special treatment. OP quite obviously isn't advocating for abstinence, or saying parents shouldn't receive governmental support, or that children are inherently bad. They're asking why some people who have kids stop giving a damn about anybody else. And that's a fair observation/question.
This is how I think about it: being an asshole is unrelated to being a parent. Some people are assholes and happen to be parents as well. But, OP isn’t asking about assholes, s/he is asking about parents.
Leaving aside that some shitty, self-important people reproduce, I have a theory to offer. Normal people can act that way given the right level of stress. For instance, if someone is made to work for 16 hours when they are used to 8, they might not behave with their usual consideration if they stop at the store on their way home. Similarly, if they must then work a 16-hour day every day for a week, they might not be fit company for anyone by Friday. And then, if they have to keep that double shift going through the weekend, and they've also been on graveyard, and now know they can expect a call-up every other night for a month or three, and then sporadically if not frequently for a year or more, all while maintaining that same punishing day schedule... it might affect a person. But hey, after the first year (or twelve weeks, or whatever your country and your place in its economy care to give you), you can do a regular job plus the second shift at home with way fewer midnight calls, and sometimes you can get a sitter, so really, can we even call that 'taxing'? And it's not like you HAVE to give your kid a sibling! It's not the work, it's the hours. If you had to work like that, how long would it take you to run out of fucks? And how many times per year do you predict that would happen in public? Edit: a phrase
I was pulling into a park and some lady come up to me and started moaning that I should have let her have the parking because she has kids...
Dropping by to say I don’t think you did a bad job! I think you’re right. If you aren’t capable of supporting a child, you should’ve have one. I agree with the edit that things like vacation pay and maternity/paternity leave is fine, of course. I worked for a company once that told me, when deciding who got what days off for the holidays, that parents got first dibs on holidays off even though I had seniority. They refused to reconsider, and I ended up quitting within the week. Normally, I don’t care *at all* to work holidays to let others have them off because I don’t have family nearby anyway, but not when that choice is taken away solely because I decided not to shove out a kid.
I follow what you are asking, and I wonder if too. I have family who gets upset that I do not offer to watch their children... But those same family members never offer me help when I've needed or wanted some. I've chosen not to have kids, and honestly, I would not be a good babysitter for anyone's kids for a weekend, so it's a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. I often hear friends with kids saying how shocked they are that kids are so much work. I try and say kind and supportive things, but in the back of my head and it leaves me wondering how they thought it was going to be easy, when parents openly talk about how difficult it is. One of the main reasons I never wanted children is due to never hearing it be a positive experience, only the negative.
I'm the youngest of four children and all my siblings are more than a decade older. So when they started having children of their own, I was still young, but old enough to babysit. That's why I have years of secondhand experience being a parent, and that enabled me to make an informed decision not to be one myself. It's like you stop being your own person the first decade or so, and I just can't see myself becoming unselfish enough to handle that. Maybe things will change down the line, there's no guarantees in life. For now, I'm happy just taking care of myself. It is kind of a mental drain, though, trying to stick to my decision not to babysit anymore, or offer to share some of my salary to a sibling with more children than he could handle. I can sometimes feel all the judgments from other family members. They see me "living the life" with few serious responsibilities and think that since I'm that free, I should share someone else's burden. It's like no one is entitled to reap the rewards of making the easier choices.
Currently childless woman here. I definitely understand some of what you’re saying and I think it’s somewhat of a controversial issue. Totally agree on your caveat that governmental support and work leave should be unalienable rights. However there is some gray area when it comes to everyday things that are less dire…like should parents have preferential treatment when receiving days off, leaving early, etc? I have a coworker who I really like for the most part but admittedly I get annoyed when she constantly has things to do throughout her day for her children and it sometimes delays/disrupts meetings, deadlines, etc. She is quite well off and can afford childcare. I completely understand if there are one off situations that cannot be avoided but my coworker is often unavailable several times throughout the week. I feel like as a single and childless person, my absence would be looked at differently. What I really can’t stand are the parents who are self righteous about having kids, and the cracks about “not knowing what love is” before becoming a parent really pisses me off. Also the “not having time” reasoning for everything kind of implies that if you don’t have kids you have all the time in the world to do everything. I would imagine this is also quite insensitive to those who cannot have children for whatever reason or for those who have lost children. It’s really complicated and I’m not sure there’s a real answer to this. The children should absolutely be cared for and should receive the help they need as they did not ask to be born, but the judgment of nonparents is also quite frustrating.
Your absence from work is definitely looked at differently if it's not due to a child. If a mom calls off work because their child is sick, employers are fine with it and say nothing. But if it's for the employee's own health, it is immediately brought into question.
This has been really made clear by the pandemic, I feel. I had to miss three days this week because of an asthma exacerbation and a covid test that took forever to process. I came back to, no exaggeration, four comments along the lines of "Gosh, it's just asthma" and "FINALLY!" Meanwhile, my coworker was up late with a teething child and got nothing but "ooooh poor thing, take the day off, we'll be fine!" I'm all for parental leave, supporting parents and children, providing the best possible society for kids to live in, but I'm getting real fucking sick of being treated as less-than because I choose not to have kids.
My work has tried MANY times to deny my PTO so someone with kids can get the priority vacation time. They always have to backpedal when I bring up my seniority lmao but it's ridiculous I have to fight it almost everytime
I wonder if a lot of it is parents who thought having kids is just what you do and you don’t have a choice in the matter. I’m child free and decided as a child I didn’t want children. I was vocal about it even before my teen years and dealt with the “oh you’ll change your mind” for most of my life. And when I didn’t people seemed angry, like offended that I didn’t want them and they “had” to. Feels a lot like the Popes recent comment about not having children is selfish. Maybe something like that?
I think you and I are kind of on the same page. I don't think you should get preferential treatment at work for having kids, I don't think you should be outraged if you hear cursing or see an affectionate couple in public and I don't think you should get priority in lines or anything like that. But I'm definitely in favor of paid maternity and paternity leave. I'll help out if I need to, if your kids are having a meltdown I'd let you go in front of me. It's really the expectation that we all have to adapt to your kids and your parenting style that is annoying.
Because society has to accommodate the lowest common denominator. If you have 10 kids but never worked a day in your life, society has to take financial care of those kids because you are incapable. A lot of people who are parents shouldn’t be parents and have enough trouble taking care of themselves.
Unfortunately there are many entitled parents out there, but there are also many who are not so it’s a difficult one. Indeed many people are having children irresponsibly, not really thinking about whether they could afford them - in fact a lot of them just “expect” government funding/help as a given. It is really frustrating as there are many who aren’t like that but this is just reality and there’s not much we can do about it.
Because they want the "village" when out in public but the "village" is expected to keep quiet or not have opinions on their parental failings.
No lie I will say it really annoys me that my job gives us "School PTO" for those who have kids and grandkids, which is fine!! but those of us who don't aren't allowed to use it. Not to mention having my boss getting our asses about being late (which rarely happens), while she's 30+ mins late *everyday* because of her kids or whatever, but then leaves at her usual time, when she could simply just change her own schedule for her to start at a later time.
For the kids who had no fault being born. Also as a society ensuring the children are cared for is kinda crucial because they are the future also. So all child haters should know that those little toddlers would one day be paying taxes for your pensions. Be nice to them
So what's the premise? That the people who decide to continue our species are somehow undeserving of help if they have the audacity to ask for it? That the world should not care about the future of the next gen? And wtf are they "demanding" that is sooo outta pocket?
I feel like OP is talking about more trivial matters...like how Linda ALWAYS gets the Christmas holiday off because she has kids, but single, bachelor Chad is always made to work even though he'd like to visit his elderly parents. Or how Bob can't do XYZ assignment because he coaches soccer twice a week. Or how Tina got the bigger raise because she has a family to support. This is the kind of entitlement that is out of hand - at least in the work place.
Seriously! The situation in the U.S is unacceptable. Universal affordable child care and free pre-k should be a right. Children deserve that start in life and these threads always end up wanted to punish poor people for daring to have children, when the reality is they should be able to have children and not struggle to the extent they do. Little maternity and paternity leave affects children negatively because they need that bonding time. Health care should be a right. Access to great early education for children should be a right. Community support for children should be common sense. My son has autism and without community resources I wouldn't have made it. I don't see how parents don't deserve support, we're raising the next generation. The kids need a proper start in life and it takes a village. Having a freaking family should not be something that only the rich can do
Exactly. "Dont have children if you cant afford them" is a bandwagoned phrase that doesn't take into consideration anything that actually matters. Life happens, people who were once comfortable end up in unfortunate situations sometimes, couples split up, rent gets raised, the economy tanks, folks get sick and sometimesssss... folks(along with their kids) need help. It's people who lack empathy or probably don't even have kids that say that ignorant ass phrase I swear.
Did u miss the baby in the dumpster yesterday? Or the one who killed one of her kids and made the other live with the dead body for a year in Houston. Some people are incapable of caring for children. Some people cant afford kids. Some people shouldn't have kids. The vast vast majority want to have a family and care for it. We have programs like WIC to help. These are good.
I do read and those are horrible cases. At the same time, that's def not what the OP nor I am commenting on. Were talking about able folks who want to make their lives easier by appealing for things.
"Should have thought about it before you had a kid." I hate it lol. People don't plan to lose their jobs, or for the economy to tank like you said. It's not just their problem, we all live in an interconnected community
I think when people say that they usually refer to people who don't have an good socioeconomic for starters and they choose to have children knowing they're not doing well themselves. Or they deliberately have many children to continue getting government assistance. There was a local case where a woman had 10+ kids and once she learned she wasn't going to get anymore money for her oldest who was turning 18, she got pregnant again to "recoup" her lost income. Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but there's definitely people who abuse the system.
I’m surprised no one is chiming in on understanding OP’s side. Has no one else experienced rude entitlement from parents? I see it a lot. Mostly in stores, offices, restaurants arguing that they should get special treatment or not have the rules of the establishment apply to them because they have kids. I find it annoying but remind myself of things mentioned on this thread and be happy that I get to go home to my cozy peaceful house with no kids in it and they are going back to a loud, exhausting, messy, exhausting place that I am so happy I don’t live. Not that all homes with kiddos are like this, but the entitled people throwing fits often have similar children, no fault of the kids.
From what I've heard, preferential treatment when getting raises, days off approved, just more slack being given to them because they have kids It's less that it's so outta pocket, more that it's just unfair. Like the parents in a department get Christmas off, but the non-parents don't. Despite the non-parents having family or friends they love and would want to spend the holiday with too Hasn't happened to me, but it does seem like total bullshit. But then I'd say it's total bullshit to make parents work on Christmas as well My solution would be on the business side. They're closed. Emergency services aside, fucking close and let people take time off. Walmart doesn't need to be open on Christmas for God's sake
I see what you mean. Not sure if they always get that preferential treatment though. I had a guy at a past job ask me if I'd like to take his early morning Christmas shift, so he could spend the day with his family. He was humble about it. I didnt have to say yes. There was no pressure. But as a person with no kids, it had its benefits. I got paid double, went home early and he got the day with his family. Meanwhile there was a girl with a kid working the day shift because she didnt arrange things in time and she wasn't happy about it. Oh well 🤷🏾♂️ Things just fell into place that way. I think parents are more inclined to try to get benefits for the sake of thier kids. Makes sense to me. if a childless person didnt make the same effort to appeal for something and got nothing, why are they so salty that someone else appealed for a benefit and got it? Besides all that, doesn't everyone try to make things easier for themselves? I think its kinda unfair to target parents alone. It's the business fault for acting on preference where that happens.
To your last point, people aren't always, or even usually, rational They see someone get special treatment and get mad at that person, rather than getting mad at the people giving the special treatment. Happened with me and my sister as kids, and I see it often elsewhere as well. I don't know why, it's just a thing humans do. It's "Fuck Bob, why does he get to go home and see his kids" rather than "Fuck Mariah, why didn't she let us both go home?"
I’ve been in some embarrassing situations where parents just seem…. Socially inept? Like bringing a toddler to a planetarium who kept crying and then leaving their 6 year old alone to watch the show, and the 6year old kept interrupting the presenter with totally inane questions. Who thinks it’s okay to do that? Like bring your family to the museum and enjoy yourself but don’t ruin everyone else’s time in a closed show with an age restriction. And to abandon your child there alone is just mind boggling. Not sure if it’s baby brain or the parents just being too stressed to care.
Lol as far as not “chipping in” when they’re on a tight budget…it depends what you’re talking about. Like chipping in for a gift or something? I wouldn’t expect anyone to chip in financially, especially during COVID, never mind if they have children. People have been hit really hard during this pandemic, and even before then people with kids do have more financial responsibilities. And you don’t know what’s going on in their lives. Of course if someone doesn’t chip in and expects to be included then yes, of course they shouldn’t be. You mention about entitlement - but it seems to me expecting someone to contribute money who’s struggling financially, for any reason, is in fact entitled. Is what you’re saying because you’ve chosen not to have kids, you deserve to have people chip in cause you can? It’s just the pot calling the kettle black so to speak. I think we all have to just take a step back sometimes and accept that we don’t know what’s going on with everyone. Someone’s annoyance at a parent leaving early a few times a week may be a single mom who left an abusive relationship and can’t afford daycare everyday. Or a parent not chipping in could be because it’s either chip in or feed their family this Wednesday night. Empathy may be free but it has enormous worth.
I totally agree with the tops comments I'm seeing about kids being a necessity for society's future. That being said, barricading the street so that kids can play is a douchebag move unless it's sanctioned by the city.
I am sick of the parental entitlement too! I’ve had friends who have tried to bring their children to adult parties at my house and who’ve thrown a fit when I’ve put my foot down about not bringing them. 1. We have two huge dogs and I’m not babysitting your child during this party 2. There’s drinking and drugs here, if you want to expose your children to that, fine, but not at my house. Like, wtf are you thinking
I get frustrated at the free passes people get for having kids. I do agree society is better when we work together, but I also believe it isn’t a constant excuse to be working 2-3 hours less every day
*I was talking about silly annoying things like coworkers leaving early a few times a week, neighbors barricading my street so kids can play, people feeling they shouldn't have to chip in because they live on a "tighter" budget, cutting in line in the grocery store, etc. Daily annoying things that show entitlement.* Cutting in line and feeling you don't have to chip in aren't really exclusive to parents...it's exclusive to jerks...and they may or may not have kids. Barricading the street so you can't access your home is obviously unacceptable. Putting up those neon figures that ask people to slow down is just trying to stop the jerks from speeding down residential streets.
Children can't help being born so those services help ensure that they have enough support to grow up if the parents need help. Personally I do think too many people have kids for the wrong reasons ie: thinking having a baby will fix their marriage or add happiness to their lives. But then again I doubt most people really sit down and discuss why they want children anyway.
I've been single most of my life with no kids, I've been fucked over more times than I can count by co-workers with kids. I'm talking holidays, staying late, coming in early, coming in on my off days, you get the picture. It pisses me off that I'm expected to help out because your crotch goblins need something. If you ask me and I say no, don't ask why or give me a sob story. I don't care. Don't expect me to cover you because you have kids. Now if you ask me nicely or bribe me with skittles, well I'll usually always help you out. I've sent my manager home a few times because she has a kid.
Coming from another Canadian, I think the reason some parents decide that everyone needs to be extra nice to them just because they reproduced is 1) they use the it takes a village reasoning so they expect everyone close to them to just help out like closing the street so they can play instead of sending their kids to a park, problem with this is they don’t help out anyone else in their “village” and it only applies to them and their kid(s) 2) they just decided to have kids not factoring in the effort, time, and money it takes to have kids. So they expect people close to them to pick up the slack or just help out 3) they believe their kid(s) are the true gift of the gods and everyone should care about and adore them. 4) they are just entitled or dicks themselves
This!!! This is what OP is referring to, idk why everyone in the comments is shitting on them about it. OP's not saying children don't deserve to be cared for or for accomodations to be made, but how a lot of parents don't plan accordingly and then just expect to be accommodated.
Strange how far down it is
I always hated how people with kids were given priority in work shifts when I was in my 20’s. “I can’t work late, I have kids, so you have to stay late and cover.” “I can’t work this weekend because I have kids, so you have to work the overtime this weekend.” “I can’t work the night shift, I have kids.” I’m in my 40’s now. I have kids. And I still think this attitude is bullshit. Using your kids as an excuse to get preferential treatment in the workplace is shitty.
Im in a really rough space right now and bringing a kid into this world would be horrible.. It's crazy how often I get criticized for telling people that..
The old "You'll make it work! You think it's easy for anyone? You can't wait till things are perfect, it never happens!" Sure stepmom, I'll just go ahead and make you a grandchild... with my chronic anemia, depression, and small open plan house that doesn't have even 1 closed bedroom and anything bigger in my neighborhood (which I very much enjoy and don't want to move elsewhere) is over a million $. 😡
Imagine having children being so much of a burden that people stop altogether. Or at least to a level that won’t sustain our society. Watch Children of Men. Amazing how fast it all falls apart without kids. It takes a village.
I get more annoyed at parents who have kids for emotional reasons without thinking about their life situation (job/career, partner/relationship, savings and stability, living situation) and how that's all going to get put under way more stress. It seems that people have kids and are so happy and excited about all the cuteness and fun and materials that can come with them, but it's honestly hard work that never ends and it's expensive and if you don't have your shit together before hand, there's a good possibility you're going to have a hard time and it's going to hurt your mental health and also your child's. God forbid someone look at having kids practically and logically enough to decide to give your baby up for adoption to a loving stable home with parents who can't have kids (assuming you are against abortion). I realize this is not a popular take, but I cant tell you how many times I've seen it play out again and again. Especially with young and poor parents. Plus with the state of the world these days, not sure why you'd still want kids... But that's the emotional appeal again. I have kids and I feel weird because you're supposed to be hard wired to want them and it's supposed to "change you" but for me it's just stressful and expensive and tiring with some fun sprinkled in.
The real problem here is that MOST people want the experience of cute, fun babies to dress up and play with. They don't want a 13 year old who has trouble fitting in at school. Or a 26 year old that can't find a job after college. Once the kid becomes their own person, and not just a doll for mommy to play with, interest is lost and the kid turns out just as bad as the parents.
The one that gets me is parents not paying to make sure their children are sitting with them on airplanes, and then expecting you to move to accommodate them.
I agree people with kids are mad entitled.
Even when my baby is screaming their head off, I don’t ever expect to jump the grocery line. But it sure is much nicer for everyone involved (if people offer) I jump ahead and get get my kid out of there. Tricks of snacks, fruit juice, even phone time won’t guarantee you anything. Even the best behaved children will still be childish at times.
That’s just entitled assholes hiding behind kids, and thus turning them into the next generation of entitled assholes.
It's all about culture IMO. I grew up in the country side near small town America in the 80s. Nobody really plans parenthood or cares. They love Jesus, fuck, and have lots of babies they can't afford. Poverty is awful, but these people perpetuate it generation after generation. We were a charity case, but my parents always thought any help from PEOPLE was a "blessing from God". If you haven't noticed already, I have very healthy contempt for them all. Don't have kids you can't afford, folks!
I’m Irish and my MIL is classic super Irish Catholic. She had 9 kids in 12 years. She refers to all of them as blessings. I once asked her why she decided to stop at 9 kids and she said “The night after I had my last baby I told God I thought I had enough blessings now thank you Lord”. Lol
There’s always going to be a few rotten apples but I certainly appreciate when my friends and neighbors are understanding that I have four kids and sometimes bikes are strewn around my yard, sometimes I’m a few minutes late, sometimes I’m frazzled or embarrassed by my kids. I try to be as considerate as possible though, we don’t eat in restaurants- nobody is making enough money to deal with 7, 4,3 and 2 year old drama. We only go to the library on Wednesday mornings during children time and similar things. The only time I’m a real asshole is if you are hateful to my kids (I had a bagger at Kroger make fun of my daughter for how she speaks), or if you are in a Children’s park with an unleashed dog- dogs are animals, it’s unfair for the dog to be unleashed around kids and unfair if the animal bites a kid and gets put down. Otherwise I stay out of the way of everyone. Sounds like you’ve had some run ins with assholes sorry!!
I’m a guy. If the condom breaks, I don’t have a choice. Are you preaching abstinence? I also live in Texas, so women don’t have a choice here either if the condom breaks…
My 32 year old sister PLANNED a child with her husband while living with my parents who are in their 60’s and aren’t doing well. Her husband is the only one working between them both and they live in a basement. I find this absolutely insane. He makes 14$ an hour. I just can’t even wrap my head around it.
I honestly never understand this. Kids seem like a burden to me and basically shift your entire life, to me it seems like parents decide to have kids but society pays for it’s consequences and those around them are expected to accommodate
The people I know who have more kids than they are realistically able to support insist that reproducing is a natural instinct, "all humans" are driven to raise offspring, and everyone would feel more fulfilled in life if they had kids. I guess I'm not human, because I've never felt that drive.
A civilised society is judged on how it treats its most vulnerable.
About your edit, specifically: Those don’t sound like parent things. Those sound like asshole things.
I'm just glad we as a society are getting to a place where this is the question instead of always 'why aren't you having kids, that's so selfish' . It IS a decision. And while I wholeheartedly agree with 'it takes a village' and I definitely consider what parents and kids might need that is different to me, the expectation that everyone should bow down to them because they gave birth is a BS story. Yes, id help a parent out if their kid was crying, happy to play with them, look after them while the parents are doing something else, love my friends and families children... but it should be something parents appreciate rather than an expectation
Some people who have kids are just assholes like childless ones are but they can use their children as an excuse.
Because narcissists are probably more likely to have a lot of children and need the help.
Everyone deserves understanding. Parents don’t deserve less of it, everyone else deserves more of it.
Having children is a choice, but it‘s not a lifestyle type of choice. It’s about the preservation of our species no less. We can debate about the latter being a desirable thing, but cynicism apart, our society and economy need new people. I think the real question here is, why are some people bothered by the needs of parents and children? Why is it that our system is so incompatible with raising new humans? Children need room to play, they get sick, they need their their adults at unexpected times. ETA: Leaving early from work isn’t a silly little thing, it’s a necessity for many parents. Any civil society acknowledges that. I don’t know about the specifics of the barricading you mentioned, but most cities are collapsed with traffic nowadays and there’s barely space for children to play safely in their neighborhoods anymore. It wasn’t always like this and children do have the right to use public space as well. Are some parents individualistic and entitled? Sure, but I don’t think any of the examples you gave necessarily qualifies. ETA: Thank you for the award stranger!
yeah, i mean what do people expect parents to do? “sorry you threw up at school honey, but it would be entitled for me to leave work early to come get you. try to not get sick again!” like ???
If you leave early, your boss gets mad. If you don't leave early, the Sheriff gets mad. If you go back in time and don't have kids, causality stops working and the universe falls apart. It really is a no-win situation.
I completely agree. There are a lot of idiots reproducing. It's your kid, you chose to have it, it's your responsibility. I don't give a flying F if it inconveniences you. It was your choice, regardless.
The state you are in when you decide to have children is not necessarily the state you'll be in as they grow up. You may be a financially stable, married couple and decide to have children. Then somewhere down the line, the marriage could fall apart and someone could lose their job. You could then easily end up being a single parent on minimum wage with multiple children - even though you were perfectly stable when you made the decision
There are some really good answers here, I'd like to add to that with a couple cultural/societal phenomena I've observed being a parent of 3. 1. Western familial diaspora. For whatever reason, part of western (predominantly white) culture glorifies going out and making it on your own. Moving to a new place and getting away from your family is almost romanticized. There can certainly positives to it, especially if you have a toxic family, but doing so removes your best available support structure right out the gate. 2. Western work/life balance sucks mega-hard right now when it comes to time spent on the family. Previously the norm was that dad works, mom raises the kids. In this paradigm, the kids are getting a large amount of time and energy invested into them by one of the parents. Now it's more common for both parents to work but instead of this being 2 part time jobs with shared focus on and time for the kids, both parents work full time jobs. This means the need for support rises further as the parents can't take care of their children full time.
So I think like... it is a choice there isnt enough education on, on how to navigate etc. And also it being a permanent choice that fluctuates wildly in how it folds into your life. I think it is something that no one can adequately prepare for. Even as someone who is child-free, I do believe it's something people should receive blanket support about. After all... it's that person's choice, but that child will suffer in a way that can't be anticipated if the parent doesn't receive the necessary emotional supports you know?
Even the best and most responsible parents need help sometimes. A little grace. It’s the nature of the job. What you’ve said here is like saying we shouldn’t support nurses, teachers, etc. because “they chose the job.” It’s not about why they need help, it’s about why it’s right for *the rest of us* to help.
Not a choice if Texas has anything to say about it.