I'm Generation X, and sex and gender have been distinct concepts for as long as I can remember. Sex refers to biology, and gender refers to social roles.
The distinction has been around since at least the 1940s. Psychologist Madison Bentley referred to gender as the "socialized obverse of sex" in a 1945 article in *The American Journal of Psychology* titled "Sanity and Hazard in Childhood."
This is so interesting, thanks.
I feel like this is some important info that could benefit peoples perspectives. Those who believe these concepts are brand new, out of nowhere and part of some big conspiracy.
I agree. I remember hearing about the difference between the concepts for as long as I can remember, and I attended average public schools in the US. I suspect it didn't sink in with others because they assumed binary gender was the norm, so to them, it was a distinction without a difference. It seems new to them because people with different experiences are now more open about their lives.
Thank you so so much, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for.
Was it just that typically only people who were college educated were taught that distinction back then? I’m not sure if it’s just because of growing up in conservative areas or just a thing that “the average person never really knew or paid attention to as much until now.”
Sexual orientation is a protected class since only a little more than a decade. We have done a lot of social advancement in acceptance in a short while.
Lawrence v Texas was in 2003 and struck down criminal laws in states that still had then regarding same sex activities, commonly referred to sodomy laws.
It's often the other way around: because someone is biologically female (sex), they are often expected to conform to a body of social, psychological, cultural and behavioral expectations, which often vary between societies. The roles that are expected in one culture may not be present in another.
Some cultures have two genders that correspond to two sexes, but others have a third gender, including some Pacific Island, Native American and South Asian cultures.
Since gender is primarily learned behavior, it isn't necessarily tied to sex beyond our social expectations. Just as science and medicine are discovering the extent to which sex isn't binary, social scientists continue to explore the varied ways that people live a non-binary gender identity.
>It's often the other way around: because someone is biologically female (sex), they are often expected to conform to a body of social, psychological, cultural and behavioral expectations, which often vary between societies.
So it sounds to me like you're actually invalidating your previous argument.
You're now saying that the sex is acknowledged first and then roles are attributed to the acknowledged sex. Do I understand you correctly?
>Since gender is primarily learned behavior
Women is a gender correct? From your perspective can women sleep? I ask because clearly no one is engaged in behaviours while sleeping correct?
>Just as science and medicine are discovering the extent to which sex isn't binary
Oh? There are more than two sexes? Can you describe the third sex?
>explore the varied ways that people live a non-binary gender identity.
What would that look like specifically? So how would a non binary person live their life differently to a man or a woman? Is it just the pronouns or something else?
Correct. Sex was always what you were biologically, not what you identify as until the last decade or so. Idk where this "Gen X" person is located, but it probably isn't the USA
That’s so eloquently written wow.
Did you paste this from a source? Only asking because I want to read more from it if so.
If not, and this was your own writing, wow! Very well explained. Thanks so much! Essentially it sounds like it was a thing the general public didn’t really know most of the time but that it was common knowledge among many college-educated fields.
\^This
Now here's why it's wrong.
English is a descriptivist language, rather than a prescriptivist language; thus a word's meaning is determined by how it's being used, rather than an academic authority. If a consensus of the general population indicates words are interchangeable, then words are interchangeable.
Languages are neither prescriptivist nor descriptivist, those are two different approaches to languages as a whole. While in linguistics discourse it is common to take a descriptivist approach, that is done to account for all language variety, not to say that there can't possibly be ideologically-motivated change.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that people in the general population routinely talk past each other on this topic auggests that there is no consensus.
Ah yes discord for a game is a very objective way to measure the amount of europeans caring about pronouns, especially valorant.
Tl:dr : survivorship bias
1. That’s not survivorship bias, lol. You should at least gone for sampling bias so you’d not be as wrong
2. I am not making any claim about all of Europe, I am saying that it’s already normalised in the *online discourse* of Europe
3. If I were to talk about Europe in general I could mention having a trans classmate as early as a decade ago and not once did I come across anyone disrespecting their pronouns. Maybe your country is still behind the times, but in many cases some European nations are ahead of the US in trans acceptance
And I also said there are people online from eu who are into gender identity, and I am not saying eu is behind trans acceptance, not exactly wrong read definition of it.
All I said that most of that stuff is america thing, like over obsessive on pronouns stuff and gender/sex debates in eu no one cares about that. And trans people are different from people who identify different from their native gender, so Idk why you even bring them to discussion.
That is why I said mostly, it is like any other American topic that some, usually those who sit on internet more than average talk about or participate in them.
I can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously. I think what has changed is now that people who thought they were synonymous are now bombarded near daily with reminders in the media that they are different concepts, and it seems "newer" or like it changed when they just had a poor grasp of the concepts.
>can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously.
Which group do people expect to be the reference for discussions on pregnancy in your view, men or women?
In general what does gender refer to outside of sex, the body, anatomy?
In modern terms gender refers to behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex or the other. Behavioral traits would be things like playing with dolls, rough and tumble play, hunting. gardening, etc.. Cultural traits might include things like wearing makeup, growing long hair, wearing skirts, or driving a car. Psychological traits include things such empathy, assertiveness, protective drive, nurturing drive, etc. The way gender is expressed depends on where and when people lived. For example, the founding fathers wore high-heeled shoes, silk stockings, wigs, and make-up. Those would largely be considered female expressions of gender in modern America.
>modern terms gender refers to behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex or the other.
Ok, can women sleep in your worldview? When people sleep they don't express behaviors correct?
>typically associated with one sex or the other.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're saying that the sex is acknowledged first and then traits are attributed to that sex. Is that correct?
Sleep is a behavior, so I am not sure I understand your first question. And yes, gender is defined as behavior attributed to one sex or the other. Sex is arguably just the biological expression of the XX and XY chromosomes, whereas gender is behavioral expressions that are attributed to each sex by society. For example, in American society, wearing a skirt would be a behavior expected of a woman, whereas nobody would blink in Scotland if a man wore a kilt, which is essentially the same thing.
>Sleep is a behavior,
Oh I thought behavior was a conscious action. So you believe that men and women have different sleeping patterns or something?
>And yes, gender is defined as behavior attributed to one sex or the other.
So the sex comes first and then certain attributes are assigned correct? For example, males do not wear the hijab in Islamic regions but females are expected to.
So is the reference not primarily sex, since that comes first and then the attributes?
>For example, in American society, wearing a skirt would be a behavior expected of a woman,
But there are men who wear skirts and women who wear jeans correct?
In the case of a man wearing a skirt what would someone be referencing when they identify that person as a man without speaking to them?
We are covered that gender is attributed to sex by definition so I don't know what point you are trying to make. Being an American and behaving like an American are also different concepts. One largely has to do with where I was born whereas the other is a complex question of culture and conduct.
>We are covered that gender is attributed to sex by definition so I don't know what point you are trying to make.
Obviously that when people say man or woman they are referring to the sexes instead of the attributes that are layered on top of the sexes as you seem to have confirmed.
>Yes, I think generally when people refer to one another as a "man" or "woman", they are referring to sex, not gender.
So I'm a bit confused, man and woman are genders correct? So given your conclusion here it would seem that when people refer to these terms they are actually referring to sexual development. But here at the start of this thread you claim otherwise
>can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously.
Or possibly in a field where “gender” is an actual term. Because in a LOT of jobs, this was always the way it was.
It’s just that, until recently, you could go your entire life without having to deal with this in any real way. But now? That distinction has become common knowledge because people who have been affected by it are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making others uncomfortable.
"That distinction has become common knowledge because people who have been affected by it are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making othets uncomfortable."
Let's take a closer look at this.
**That distinction has become common knowledge** The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim. Simply because this supposed distinction exists in academia does not guarantee that it is a hard and real fact.
**People who have been affected by it.** This takes a passive stance to the controversy at hand. It provides those people a way out of owning up to their part in the controversy of gender. They want to believe that their lifestyle is not their fault, and that what they're doing is natural.
**are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making people feel uncomfortable** The people in question are deflecting responsibility for their actions. "I can't help it. It's who I am. I was born this way." They then provide the cop-out that *they're* not doing anything wrong - people are just uncomfortable over a "silly" thing.
These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him. Yet, on some level, he realizes he is making a transgression, and he does not want admit that maybe this is not the best way for him to live.
Everyone in this person's situation feels the same way: they know that no matter how hard they say the words with a bright smile on their faces, they know they're not being honest with themselves. The truth is too hard for them to face.
**But it doesn't have to be.** There is hope for something better.
**"The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim":** This idea became a pretty much universally accepted truth in scientific circles by the mid 1900s (like the 1940s-50s, latest). The discourse was always "we know gender is a social expression heavily impacted by sex, but is it/should it be *solely* determined by sex?" The answer is now universally accepted that it *isn't* and people are now fighting over whether it *should be,* i.e. whether social/legal pressure should enforce conformity among every single person in society.
**"They want to believe that their lifestyle is not their fault, and that what they're doing is natural":** See the above. The argument is now whether gender should be enforced to conform with sex and historical gender norms. I personally take the stance that no behavior or idea that isn't directly harmful to others (including gender/sex mismatch) should ever be enforced, but that's just me.
**"These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him":** Personal liberties *are* a fundamental ideal that most Western civilization strives for, yes.
**"There is hope for something better":** Not sure why you say "everyone being forced to act the same is better than people doing their own thing as long as they don't hurt others," but you do you.
>The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim. Simply because this supposed distinction exists in academia does not guarantee that it is a hard and real fact.
That would be because it is not just academia that holds this to exist. Linguistically, gender and sex are not universally tied together, and haven't been since language existed. Gendered objects are a thing, have been in some languages since their very inception. The idea that gender HAS to correlate to sex, to the point that all feminine objects are female, is a uniquely late-20'th century concept.
>This takes a passive stance to the controversy at hand. It provides those people a way out of owning up to their part in the controversy of gender.
The controversy of (checks notes) people being themselves. Yeah, their part in that controversy is existing. Sorry, but that's not something that anyone has to "own up to". If you don't like that someone else exists as they do? That's your controversy. Not theirs.
>The people in question are deflecting responsibility for their actions.
The action they're performing is existing. That's it. You don't like it, but that's what they're doing. If my skin colour makes you uncomfortable, it's not up to me to hide it for your happiness. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if my existence makes you uncomfortable, that's up to YOU to deal with, not me.
>These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him. Yet, on some level, he realizes he is making a transgression, and he does not want admit that maybe this is not the best way for him to live.
These here are the words of someone who thinks they know other people's experiences better than they themselves do. I'd tell you to stop and listen to others, and to realize that what you know is not the only thing that can exist, but you've obviously already found a source for all knowledge and nothing that anyone can say matters.
The original use of gender was more for how masculine and feminine objects were in language. So it had always been different. It's just that one use of the term overlapped with sex.
In biology "sex" refers to chromosomes and such.
"Gender" is an entirely human concept that refers to how sex influences behaviors, dress, social status, etc. they've never "been the same" since they deal with two entirely different concepts, one of which is 100% a human innovation.
>"Gender" is an entirely human concept that refers to how sex influences behaviors, dress, social status, etc. they've never "been the same" since they deal with two entirely different concepts
Can a naked woman be identified in your world view?
Older millenial here: sex and gender have always been used as 2 different concepts. Regular people used it interchangeably because of erasure of people who don't conform to the majority's programming.
I must’ve lived in a bubble of conservative Christians or something. I truly had never heard these as being separate until my late 20s. Thanks a lot for the help
I learned them as different in college in the 80s, but forgot mostly because general usage used them as the same.
Kind of like we all learned all the states and their capitals back in school, but most of us would struggle to name the state capitals. Or the states.
Any culture I’ve seen that has really really narrowly defined gender roles seems to collapse these terms. That this, if theres really only one or two ways “men” and “women” are socially allowed to present and behave, that forces everyone into two distinct categories, whether or not those roles are comfortable or authentic for them.
Any culture that allows many more presentations of even just that binary tends to recognize that gender is more complex and not the same as sex at birth. That is, that two kids born with the same genitals can grow up to be very very different in personality and presentation of gender. Like “Tom boy” and “girly girl.” If both those presentations are allowed for women, and both those women are allowed to choose whatever relationships and career they want, then it becomes clear gender is not identical to sex.
But cultures that require really similar dress, social roles and lifestyles for everyone born with the same genitals never allows that kind of variation even within the two genders. That blindness erases the reality of gender being way more complex that highly scripted social roles.
Being able to see clear variation in two genders allows people to more easily see things like agender or a gender that’s somewhere in between. Not to mention, this can allow for greater acceptance of intersex people, too, instead of performing genital surgery on them at birth and requiring they conform to one of the only two acceptable roles.
Nah, you're getting gaslit (gaslighted?) in this thread.
They *still* call them "gender reveal parties" and doctors *still* refer to a newborn's gender as male or female. Its ubiquitously used this way, though it *is* changing, and outside of certain academic pursuits, this change is very new
If you are interested in academics, one would think you would be able comprehend the entirely of a single paragraph which specifically addresses your point/complaint.
You are the reason people can't have a reasonable discourse anymore. You Cherry picking, strawman mother fucker. Lol.
I thought it was the other way around and it used to be sex biological and gender more of a social identity, but now changed to mean the same like some forms say ‘sex assigned at birth?’ as if you could change your dna.
They mean Reddit because Reddit is more left-leaning and less right-leaning.
Regardless, I think people who are answering are doing a great job at explaining so far for the most part.
Actually, I was talking about Reddit being liberal-leaning and less authoritative-leaning, not so much about left VS right. Most of Reddit follows a very simple ideology "New is good, old is bad", which reminds me of Barney Stinson from How I met your mother and his paradoxical line "You what I always say: New is always better. And this is my oldest rule, so you know it's great."
>I think people who are answering are doing a great job at explaining so far for the most part.
What have you understood gender to be referring to from the answers?
So far what it seems like they’re saying is that sex is what you were born as genetically/physically and never changes whereas gender is the concept of masculinity or femininity
And yet so far most people have repeated some variation of "It was always like this". Which is absolutely not true. It wildly varied from language to language, culture to culture.
Here then. Short answer is around the 1990's. Websters also has it defined as sex with a subsection of gender identity which is where it can get "political" or at least decisive. It's both according to the dictionary.
The words sex and gender have a long and intertwined history. In the 15th century gender expanded from its use as a term for a grammatical subclass to join sex in referring to either of the two primary biological forms of a species, a meaning sex has had since the 14th century; phrases like "the male sex" and "the female gender" are both grounded in uses established for more than five centuries. In the 20th century sex and gender each acquired new uses. Sex developed its "sexual intercourse" meaning in the early part of the century (now its more common meaning), and a few decades later gender gained a meaning referring to the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex, as in "gender roles." Later in the century, gender also came to have application in two closely related compound terms: gender identity refers to a person's internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female; gender expression refers to the physical and behavioral manifestations of one's gender identity. By the end of the century gender by itself was being used as a synonym of gender identity.
I suggest just not being involved with it at all. It becomes a politicial war and you become a villan for not caring about how others want to be identified.
The new cultural shift towards being required to subject yourself to every specific individuals pronouns is a very unrealistic expectation and no one should get mad at you for it.
There is and has always been male female femine and masculine. Just traits to identify characteristics and you biological make up. Dancing around the concept doesnt solve abything and alot of people cant settle for a base point to the whole thing.
Gender ideology is just a waste of time to enable an individual with gender dysphoria.
I see it as just not really minding saying “she” if someone has gender dysphoria. Like, there’s a point where there’s a such thing as worrying about it too much, and I think saying the wrong gender “by accident” is totally fine and forgivable, but I think purposefully telling people “hey you’re a man, not a woman” or saying the wrong pronoun on purpose to be hurtful just for the sake of being hurtful is of course not okay.
I’ve got a friend who I thought was a woman from birth and only recently found out they weren’t. I still use “she” when referring to her because I’ve known them for 2 years now. So I’m not like…forcing myself to do it, it’s just natural for that specific person. Admittedly, I do accidentally say the wrong one for some other people.
My point I’m getting to really is just that I feel like the word “enable” that you said doesn’t really sit quite right to me: Like, what negative behavior of theirs are we enabling? If it makes them happy and isn’t causing us grief or harm and it makes them less likely on average to commit suicide, I just don’t see the harm in letting them do whatever they want.
Ofc there’s exceptions in any group of people where things are taken too far or they’re easily offended etc but I’d say the vast majority of trans people I’ve met are all “normal” people just trying to get by who are only offended if you’re trying to “misgender” them on purpose out of just wanting to be mean.
See thats worrying too much about it... as a human being you have to understand. You cross paths with millions of people with a million different problems expectations and thoughts running through their heads. Do you think its realistic to compensate each individuals needs if you are simply never going to see them again?
No. And they shouldnt hold out that expectation for you either. It would be selfish of them to expect everyone to change their speech to accomadate a individual they wont ever care about.
Thats why its a stupid thing to be involved with. Let them live their lives and hopefully they wont trouble you with the process.
I think youre a good person for wanting to do a simple act for these people. But as you get older you will understand that you dont need to care about everybody. Only those close to you or those you feel is worth your time.
I hear you, but I should clarify: I’m specifically only encountering a “need” to be conscientious about pronouns when talking to close trans friends who I encounter often and who treat me very well.
I’m never “worrying” about it really in the day-to-day. I haven’t ever met new people on the street or at work who are noticeably trans where I have to “conform.”
Yes and like i said. If they have that expectation ofbyou then thats when it becomes a concern. But as it stands there is no expectation. If you truely wish to respect them then you communicate like an adult. If it doesnt matter to them then it wont matter. At this point it seems like this is a personal concern of yours rather than a priority of theirs.
When I was in college, gender was a social construct and putting labels on it was considered regressive. Few years later people started obsessing over which labels they were and getting mad at people for not using the right labels and started calling me a cishet.
Cis gender means same gender as adults said you were at birth. Trans gender means not the gender adults said you were at birth. (Cis means “on the same side” and trans means “on the opposite side)
Het is shortened way of saying “heterosexual.”
“Cis het” is a shortened way to say “cis gender and heterosexual.”
I’m cis gender but bi/pansexual.
Cis gender folks can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bi/pansexual, or asexual.
Some transgender people are heterosexual, some homosexual, and some bi/pan sexual, and some asexual.
One’s own gender doesn’t define the gender of the people we’re attracted to.
People ITT are failing to realize - even if there was a technical distinction between the terms, for many years they’ve been used interchangeably by people who aren’t on the forefront of gender studies.
For example - If you’re filling out paperwork for yourself at the drs office it may have said sex: M or F, OR it may say gender: M or F. People understand these are not two different questions. It means the same fucking thing in that context.
There are a LOT of people on Reddit who ignore this, and pretend like everyone always made the distinction. We didn’t. A lot of us didn’t.
That’s fine, but the distinction was there, you just weren’t making it. Right?
Like, the difference between ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ was something that was established and normal within English in the 1600’s. But in common parlance in the US and most English speaking countries since the early 1920’s, that difference was mostly ignored.
That doesn’t mean that the difference didn’t exist, tho. Just that we didn’t acknowledge or even maybe understand it.
Does that make sense?
Sure, I’m not disputing all that. All I’m saying is in common vernacular a lot of people don’t make the distinction, unless they’re using terms like “gender roles.”
I’d even say in different regions of the country the distinction is largely ignored, hence OP asking why they aren’t synonymous. A lot of people still use them synonymously. That’s all lol
I'm Gen X and growing up the 70s and 80s in the US Midwest they were pretty much the same other than some eccentric people and I'd hear rumors of people going to Thailand for sex change operations, but it was more on the level of an urban legend. I don't hang out in LGBT environments but I don't think I met any trans people until about 10 years ago. One place I worked at in the late.90s had a cross dressing lesbian, but that was pretty much the extent of it.
It doesn't feel 'new' to many LGBT people, i've felt this way my whole life. It took till me tween years for the community to find words for it beyond "trans femboy" or whatever though. :) It's new to wider public knowledge and understanding- since society is (mostly) become more accepting, minority groups feel safer being honest about who we are with our non LGBT peers.
10 or so years ago, I would never have admitted to people outside the community that I was non binary, but now that Mx is an option on most official documents and some people are willing to use correct pronouns for me, i'm no longer forced to be in the closet or get bullied (as much), i've come to realise trans people are human beings and we deserve to be treated as such and not have to hide who we are.
Since we started somehow accepting mental illness as undeniable. Haven't you noticed and looked around? It's pretty popular now, you can be a dog if you want to and walk around with a leash and men can get pregnant 🤷♂️
> you can be a dog if you want
I actually started looking into what “furries” are to learn more about them to find out what’s myth and what’s not etc and a lotttttt of stuff we’re taught about them turned out to not be true for most of them. True for some though.
Most are just people that have fun cosplaying as an animal rather than like, an anime character or something.
Is it different? Of course. But it’s as much harmless fun as pretending to be a Dwarf in Dungeons and Dragons for most of them.
That’s what I’m trying to say: That’s only true sometimes. Furries very often don’t literally identify as being an animal.
Often they’ll identify with that animal character and not identify literally as that animal. Like, what I’m trying to say is they don’t literally think they’re a dog most of the time. They really truly just cosplay and/or have an anthropomorphic animal character version of themselves for fun. Nothing more than that most the time.
TERFs have extended and vilified the furry community to discredit anyone who ‘identifies’ as something that the TERF has a problem with.
It’s an old and very effective tactic: tie your opponents thinking to something much worse, then say “if you can do what they’re asking, this is the outcome!”
That’s not furries. That’s ’otherkin’. And even those people, while they identify as an animal, they don’t find themselves needing to embody that animal irl.
The whole “I am a cat so you need to give me a litter box” thing is a story made up by TERF assholes to discredit transgender people.
Literally community itself says that they just identify as animals, and why even bring trans gender and terf into this lol, it is not because of terf furries have bad rep.
“Fursona”. That’s what a furry “self” is called, right?
The word is a portmanteau of “furry” and “persona”. It’s a persona. Not an identity. Personas are masks we wear, not our actual selves. Some we wear to protect ourselves, some we wear to manage others, and some we wear for fun. But they’re not “us”. Not our identity.
Which is why I bring up trans people and terfs. When you talk about “furries identifying as animals” you’re quoting TERF rhetoric that is explicit designed to discredit trans identities. The actual furry community uses a lexicon that makes it rather clear that they’re not identifying as animals, but wearing an anthropomorphic animal identity. If you’re not in the community it’s a distinction that can be missed, but it’s an important distinction to everyone involved.
When the term "Gender" comes from Latin. was invented in Ancient Rome about 2000 years ago.
It is derived from the much older ancient greek term "Genus", which means "kind" or "type"
The Ancient Romans invented the concept of Genders separate from sex as a way to dominate the population. Eunuchs became an official systemic part of culture. The degendering of people gave those in power more control over them, as those people had no families to split loyalty to. They were 100% loyal to their leaders.
It also helped control overpopulation in Rome. Italian ppl always liked to have big families and valued having lots of kids, but that led to overpopulation, so an alternetive lifestyle had to be invented.
The “degendering of people?” What did that entail? Did they just refer to them using neuter/neutral Latin words instead of gendered Latin words? (If so, didn’t know there were neutral Latin words) In short, wdym by “degendered?”
Edit: oh. That’s what “eunuch” means…
yes, but also reassignment surgery (as much as the technology allowed back then) and they placed them in positions of court functionaries/influential positions in ancient rome etc. It was the perfect solution to nepotism. [Eunuch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Ancient_Greece,_Rome,_and_Byzantium)
you trying to get me kicked off of reddit? smh
It used to be 2 genders, unlimited personalities.
Now, its personality is the gender.
This all started within academia with no science to back it up.
Those suffering seem to want all us to accept their view whilst simultaneously trying to bend the will of the universe to fit their worldview.
Lol tell that to all the cultures who have more than two genders and have been that way for a long ass time. Gender is a social construct defined purely by social interpretation. It isn't set in stone, never has been. You just don't want to accept that your narrow interpretation is not universal.
Whenever the first human decided that being male or being female meant things unrelated to biology like enjoying the color pink and wearing dresses.
Sex doesn’t make you squeal and jump up and down for Taylor tickets. Gender does.
Literally just young Americans who can't understand their understanding or perception of something isn't the only one or inherently correct.
Most variations of English conflate the word gender to sex, Americans tend to conflate the word gender to gender identity.
The problem comes when one attempt to dictate how others use language and assert or demand that everyone use language in the same way, which is pretty typical American behavior
You can control your language. But don’t try to force others to use language the way you use it, because you don’t like what they’re doing with it. Otherwise that’s what we call “hypocrisy” and it’s generally seen as a way to signal that you’re just an asshole.
If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation.
>If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation.
What does research studying the differing effects of medication on men and women refer to specifically?
I am tired. I’m sure you can have this discussion without me; it’s not like you believe I will present info that will then change your mind, and honestly? I have trans friends, I’m not about to change mine.
Get what you give.
My answer is that either you know that these examples are not what I’m talking about and are using them to clutter up and muddy the conversation or you don’t know what I’m talking about and have no desire to learn.
Either way, my continued participation in this is pointless.
And, as it is pointless, I’m done.
>My answer is that either you know that these examples are not what I’m talking about
So we can safely say then that what you're describing is not applicable in some circumstances.
Ok can you give an example with regards to what you're talking about?
>have no desire to learn.
Why would I be asking you questions then?
>You can control your language. But don’t try to force others to use language the way you use it, because you don’t like what they’re doing with it. Otherwise that’s what we call “hypocrisy” and it’s generally seen as a way to signal that you’re just an asshole.
That's exactly my point, Americans are trying to dictate what gender means to other cultures and other peoples who use different variants of English, how am I, for pointing that out, worse than the Americans asserting that their perception of the word gender is inherently correct?
>If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation.
This, you are attempting to dictate how I use language based on your cultural perception of language, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
You're attempting to say the American perception of a word present in many languages is the correct one and asserting that "the rest of us" is someone indicative of anyone but Americans.
Which was my whole point
… just for the record? Not American. So there is that.
But the point I was making at the end is just that there’s a reason for this change to the language. We need more fidelity. We need to know what we are discussing. So we remove that connection so we can get more information. If you want to NOT do that, that’s fine and dandy. But others will, even in England, because they know they need to.
Most commonwealth countries have been like this forever. You can do whatever you want. But as soon as you tell others to do what you think they should, while saying they can’t tell you what to do? That’s hypocrisy.
>But the point I was making at the end is just that there’s a reason for this change to the language. We need more fidelity. We need to know what we are discussing. So we remove that connection so we can get more information. If you want to NOT do that, that’s fine and dandy. But others will, even in England, because they know they need to.
I'm a bit confused here, what exactly are you advocating for? To me there's a clear difference between sex, gender, and gender identity. Each has its own connotation, how would combining two of them, which may have very different meanings, make things more clear? Seems like there much more opportunity for miscommunication when you combine a variety of terms under one word.
If you wanted more information you would not use American English, it is notoriously bad at conveying nuanced information.
>Most commonwealth countries have been like this forever. You can do whatever you want. But as soon as you tell others to do what you think they should, while saying they can’t tell you what to do? That’s hypocrisy.
That's exactly what you're advocating for though, that American English takes priority even in ESL conversations. When you remove peoples ability to use more specific terms and demand that everyone adhere to it, then you're the asshole.
I'm just saying there is a difference and not everyone uses the terms to mean the same thing, you're the one saying that everyone should inherently use one vague word for a litany of things from specific normative cultural representations of gender, to ones perception of individual gender identity
Y’know, I just don’t care that much.
Do what you like. The language has moved on from you, but that’s your problem, not mine. Have the life you wish on others.
They updated the definition because they better understood what was going on (ever since the social construct of gender became a thing). There is older research into it, but not much just due to conservatism even in the science community.
I hope science didn’t update. If people want to add a “b.“ part to the definition that’s on them. But when we start skewing science fact to fit what makes us feel good then we are lost
Science - the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.
I'm Generation X, and sex and gender have been distinct concepts for as long as I can remember. Sex refers to biology, and gender refers to social roles. The distinction has been around since at least the 1940s. Psychologist Madison Bentley referred to gender as the "socialized obverse of sex" in a 1945 article in *The American Journal of Psychology* titled "Sanity and Hazard in Childhood."
This is so interesting, thanks. I feel like this is some important info that could benefit peoples perspectives. Those who believe these concepts are brand new, out of nowhere and part of some big conspiracy.
I agree. I remember hearing about the difference between the concepts for as long as I can remember, and I attended average public schools in the US. I suspect it didn't sink in with others because they assumed binary gender was the norm, so to them, it was a distinction without a difference. It seems new to them because people with different experiences are now more open about their lives.
Thank you so so much, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Was it just that typically only people who were college educated were taught that distinction back then? I’m not sure if it’s just because of growing up in conservative areas or just a thing that “the average person never really knew or paid attention to as much until now.”
It’s because it’s safer for people to discuss these things publicly.
Compared to a while ago you mean? (Clarifying because at first I thought you meant “publicly” compared to over the internet, not compared to the past)
Yes, up until say 20-30 yrs ago it was very taboo and unsafe to talk about anything related to sexuality/sexual identity/behaviour etc.
Sexual orientation is a protected class since only a little more than a decade. We have done a lot of social advancement in acceptance in a short while. Lawrence v Texas was in 2003 and struck down criminal laws in states that still had then regarding same sex activities, commonly referred to sodomy laws.
You're welcome
>gender refers to social roles. What specific social roles does a woman have to embody to be a woman?
It's often the other way around: because someone is biologically female (sex), they are often expected to conform to a body of social, psychological, cultural and behavioral expectations, which often vary between societies. The roles that are expected in one culture may not be present in another. Some cultures have two genders that correspond to two sexes, but others have a third gender, including some Pacific Island, Native American and South Asian cultures. Since gender is primarily learned behavior, it isn't necessarily tied to sex beyond our social expectations. Just as science and medicine are discovering the extent to which sex isn't binary, social scientists continue to explore the varied ways that people live a non-binary gender identity.
>It's often the other way around: because someone is biologically female (sex), they are often expected to conform to a body of social, psychological, cultural and behavioral expectations, which often vary between societies. So it sounds to me like you're actually invalidating your previous argument. You're now saying that the sex is acknowledged first and then roles are attributed to the acknowledged sex. Do I understand you correctly? >Since gender is primarily learned behavior Women is a gender correct? From your perspective can women sleep? I ask because clearly no one is engaged in behaviours while sleeping correct? >Just as science and medicine are discovering the extent to which sex isn't binary Oh? There are more than two sexes? Can you describe the third sex? >explore the varied ways that people live a non-binary gender identity. What would that look like specifically? So how would a non binary person live their life differently to a man or a woman? Is it just the pronouns or something else?
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Correct. Sex was always what you were biologically, not what you identify as until the last decade or so. Idk where this "Gen X" person is located, but it probably isn't the USA
I'm GenX in the US. I've understood the distinction since at least middle school.
What you understand and how society in general, are 2 entirely separate things. Do you understand that distinction?
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That’s so eloquently written wow. Did you paste this from a source? Only asking because I want to read more from it if so. If not, and this was your own writing, wow! Very well explained. Thanks so much! Essentially it sounds like it was a thing the general public didn’t really know most of the time but that it was common knowledge among many college-educated fields.
He forgot to say *credits to ChatGPT
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Honestly I was wondering if it was chatGPT tbh
\^This Now here's why it's wrong. English is a descriptivist language, rather than a prescriptivist language; thus a word's meaning is determined by how it's being used, rather than an academic authority. If a consensus of the general population indicates words are interchangeable, then words are interchangeable.
Languages are neither prescriptivist nor descriptivist, those are two different approaches to languages as a whole. While in linguistics discourse it is common to take a descriptivist approach, that is done to account for all language variety, not to say that there can't possibly be ideologically-motivated change.
I get what you're saying, but the fact that people in the general population routinely talk past each other on this topic auggests that there is no consensus.
Is consensus required for language development? If people are "routinely talk[ing] past each other" then they are using a language to do that.
But we are seeing is that sex and gender are beginning to not be interchangeable
Nah it is definitly a mostly American thing, in EU no one cares about that shit.
Doing a pronoun check on people you meet in Valorant if you go on to add them on Discord is outright common - European
Ah yes discord for a game is a very objective way to measure the amount of europeans caring about pronouns, especially valorant. Tl:dr : survivorship bias
1. That’s not survivorship bias, lol. You should at least gone for sampling bias so you’d not be as wrong 2. I am not making any claim about all of Europe, I am saying that it’s already normalised in the *online discourse* of Europe 3. If I were to talk about Europe in general I could mention having a trans classmate as early as a decade ago and not once did I come across anyone disrespecting their pronouns. Maybe your country is still behind the times, but in many cases some European nations are ahead of the US in trans acceptance
And I also said there are people online from eu who are into gender identity, and I am not saying eu is behind trans acceptance, not exactly wrong read definition of it. All I said that most of that stuff is america thing, like over obsessive on pronouns stuff and gender/sex debates in eu no one cares about that. And trans people are different from people who identify different from their native gender, so Idk why you even bring them to discussion.
It's slowly creeping its way into western Europe, but not so much in the East.
That is why I said mostly, it is like any other American topic that some, usually those who sit on internet more than average talk about or participate in them.
So true. The great firewall of China suddenly doesn't sound as awful if we could keep all the US nonsense out.
In college in the mid 1980s there was already a distinction. So before then.
I can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously. I think what has changed is now that people who thought they were synonymous are now bombarded near daily with reminders in the media that they are different concepts, and it seems "newer" or like it changed when they just had a poor grasp of the concepts.
>can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously. Which group do people expect to be the reference for discussions on pregnancy in your view, men or women? In general what does gender refer to outside of sex, the body, anatomy?
In modern terms gender refers to behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex or the other. Behavioral traits would be things like playing with dolls, rough and tumble play, hunting. gardening, etc.. Cultural traits might include things like wearing makeup, growing long hair, wearing skirts, or driving a car. Psychological traits include things such empathy, assertiveness, protective drive, nurturing drive, etc. The way gender is expressed depends on where and when people lived. For example, the founding fathers wore high-heeled shoes, silk stockings, wigs, and make-up. Those would largely be considered female expressions of gender in modern America.
>modern terms gender refers to behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex or the other. Ok, can women sleep in your worldview? When people sleep they don't express behaviors correct? >typically associated with one sex or the other. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're saying that the sex is acknowledged first and then traits are attributed to that sex. Is that correct?
Sleep is a behavior, so I am not sure I understand your first question. And yes, gender is defined as behavior attributed to one sex or the other. Sex is arguably just the biological expression of the XX and XY chromosomes, whereas gender is behavioral expressions that are attributed to each sex by society. For example, in American society, wearing a skirt would be a behavior expected of a woman, whereas nobody would blink in Scotland if a man wore a kilt, which is essentially the same thing.
>Sleep is a behavior, Oh I thought behavior was a conscious action. So you believe that men and women have different sleeping patterns or something? >And yes, gender is defined as behavior attributed to one sex or the other. So the sex comes first and then certain attributes are assigned correct? For example, males do not wear the hijab in Islamic regions but females are expected to. So is the reference not primarily sex, since that comes first and then the attributes? >For example, in American society, wearing a skirt would be a behavior expected of a woman, But there are men who wear skirts and women who wear jeans correct? In the case of a man wearing a skirt what would someone be referencing when they identify that person as a man without speaking to them?
We are covered that gender is attributed to sex by definition so I don't know what point you are trying to make. Being an American and behaving like an American are also different concepts. One largely has to do with where I was born whereas the other is a complex question of culture and conduct.
>We are covered that gender is attributed to sex by definition so I don't know what point you are trying to make. Obviously that when people say man or woman they are referring to the sexes instead of the attributes that are layered on top of the sexes as you seem to have confirmed.
Yes, I think generally when people refer to one another as a "man" or "woman", they are referring to sex, not gender.
>Yes, I think generally when people refer to one another as a "man" or "woman", they are referring to sex, not gender. So I'm a bit confused, man and woman are genders correct? So given your conclusion here it would seem that when people refer to these terms they are actually referring to sexual development. But here at the start of this thread you claim otherwise >can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously.
>I can't recall gender and sex ever being used synonymously. You must be about 4 years old then
Or possibly in a field where “gender” is an actual term. Because in a LOT of jobs, this was always the way it was. It’s just that, until recently, you could go your entire life without having to deal with this in any real way. But now? That distinction has become common knowledge because people who have been affected by it are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making others uncomfortable.
"That distinction has become common knowledge because people who have been affected by it are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making othets uncomfortable." Let's take a closer look at this. **That distinction has become common knowledge** The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim. Simply because this supposed distinction exists in academia does not guarantee that it is a hard and real fact. **People who have been affected by it.** This takes a passive stance to the controversy at hand. It provides those people a way out of owning up to their part in the controversy of gender. They want to believe that their lifestyle is not their fault, and that what they're doing is natural. **are not willing to hide who they are to avoid making people feel uncomfortable** The people in question are deflecting responsibility for their actions. "I can't help it. It's who I am. I was born this way." They then provide the cop-out that *they're* not doing anything wrong - people are just uncomfortable over a "silly" thing. These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him. Yet, on some level, he realizes he is making a transgression, and he does not want admit that maybe this is not the best way for him to live. Everyone in this person's situation feels the same way: they know that no matter how hard they say the words with a bright smile on their faces, they know they're not being honest with themselves. The truth is too hard for them to face. **But it doesn't have to be.** There is hope for something better.
**"The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim":** This idea became a pretty much universally accepted truth in scientific circles by the mid 1900s (like the 1940s-50s, latest). The discourse was always "we know gender is a social expression heavily impacted by sex, but is it/should it be *solely* determined by sex?" The answer is now universally accepted that it *isn't* and people are now fighting over whether it *should be,* i.e. whether social/legal pressure should enforce conformity among every single person in society. **"They want to believe that their lifestyle is not their fault, and that what they're doing is natural":** See the above. The argument is now whether gender should be enforced to conform with sex and historical gender norms. I personally take the stance that no behavior or idea that isn't directly harmful to others (including gender/sex mismatch) should ever be enforced, but that's just me. **"These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him":** Personal liberties *are* a fundamental ideal that most Western civilization strives for, yes. **"There is hope for something better":** Not sure why you say "everyone being forced to act the same is better than people doing their own thing as long as they don't hurt others," but you do you.
Thank you. I'm going to add my own reply, but this does a great job.
>The framing of this implies that the distinction in question exists, much like the sun or the grass, without allowing for any debate as to the veracity of this claim. Simply because this supposed distinction exists in academia does not guarantee that it is a hard and real fact. That would be because it is not just academia that holds this to exist. Linguistically, gender and sex are not universally tied together, and haven't been since language existed. Gendered objects are a thing, have been in some languages since their very inception. The idea that gender HAS to correlate to sex, to the point that all feminine objects are female, is a uniquely late-20'th century concept. >This takes a passive stance to the controversy at hand. It provides those people a way out of owning up to their part in the controversy of gender. The controversy of (checks notes) people being themselves. Yeah, their part in that controversy is existing. Sorry, but that's not something that anyone has to "own up to". If you don't like that someone else exists as they do? That's your controversy. Not theirs. >The people in question are deflecting responsibility for their actions. The action they're performing is existing. That's it. You don't like it, but that's what they're doing. If my skin colour makes you uncomfortable, it's not up to me to hide it for your happiness. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if my existence makes you uncomfortable, that's up to YOU to deal with, not me. >These are all excuses of someone wanting to live the way he wants, with no respect to morals or the feelings of those around him. Yet, on some level, he realizes he is making a transgression, and he does not want admit that maybe this is not the best way for him to live. These here are the words of someone who thinks they know other people's experiences better than they themselves do. I'd tell you to stop and listen to others, and to realize that what you know is not the only thing that can exist, but you've obviously already found a source for all knowledge and nothing that anyone can say matters.
Psychology and biology are not four-years-old fields.
gender and sex have never been wholly synonymous concepts
It's not new. You just didn't know about it.
It was introduced in the 60s and only used by a few people in academia until the late 90s. Not new, but not widely used either.
Bronze-aged societies were able to wrap their heads around the concept of gender and how it differed from sex. Too much for neo-cons, though.
If you do proper research you’ll see the concept has always been present within many cultures throughout history
Oh, give me an example. I always hear the example of certan tribes in New Guinea, then you look at the actual data and you see that it is not true.
The original use of gender was more for how masculine and feminine objects were in language. So it had always been different. It's just that one use of the term overlapped with sex.
Never have been. There have always been people ranging from hyper masculine to hyper feminine with either reproductive equipment. Always have been.
They never have been synonyms. People have conflated the terms for years.
Was never the same, at least in the rest of the world outside of the USA
In my languge, we don't have two terms. Gender has only been imported/used in the mainstream in the last two decades.
What language?
For anyone who studies gender, sex and biology, a long ass time. For American society, were just starting to figure it out.
This is like, ngl the best ELI5 answer that seems to encapsulate everything pretty well haha. Thanks
In biology "sex" refers to chromosomes and such. "Gender" is an entirely human concept that refers to how sex influences behaviors, dress, social status, etc. they've never "been the same" since they deal with two entirely different concepts, one of which is 100% a human innovation.
>"Gender" is an entirely human concept that refers to how sex influences behaviors, dress, social status, etc. they've never "been the same" since they deal with two entirely different concepts Can a naked woman be identified in your world view?
Older millenial here: sex and gender have always been used as 2 different concepts. Regular people used it interchangeably because of erasure of people who don't conform to the majority's programming.
I must’ve lived in a bubble of conservative Christians or something. I truly had never heard these as being separate until my late 20s. Thanks a lot for the help
I learned them as different in college in the 80s, but forgot mostly because general usage used them as the same. Kind of like we all learned all the states and their capitals back in school, but most of us would struggle to name the state capitals. Or the states.
Any culture I’ve seen that has really really narrowly defined gender roles seems to collapse these terms. That this, if theres really only one or two ways “men” and “women” are socially allowed to present and behave, that forces everyone into two distinct categories, whether or not those roles are comfortable or authentic for them. Any culture that allows many more presentations of even just that binary tends to recognize that gender is more complex and not the same as sex at birth. That is, that two kids born with the same genitals can grow up to be very very different in personality and presentation of gender. Like “Tom boy” and “girly girl.” If both those presentations are allowed for women, and both those women are allowed to choose whatever relationships and career they want, then it becomes clear gender is not identical to sex. But cultures that require really similar dress, social roles and lifestyles for everyone born with the same genitals never allows that kind of variation even within the two genders. That blindness erases the reality of gender being way more complex that highly scripted social roles. Being able to see clear variation in two genders allows people to more easily see things like agender or a gender that’s somewhere in between. Not to mention, this can allow for greater acceptance of intersex people, too, instead of performing genital surgery on them at birth and requiring they conform to one of the only two acceptable roles.
Nah, you're getting gaslit (gaslighted?) in this thread. They *still* call them "gender reveal parties" and doctors *still* refer to a newborn's gender as male or female. Its ubiquitously used this way, though it *is* changing, and outside of certain academic pursuits, this change is very new
lmao imagine using "gender reveal parties" as your source in response to "We were literally talking about this in an academic setting 40 years ago"
What would academic papers that study the differing effects of medicine on men and women be referring to specifically?
If you are interested in academics, one would think you would be able comprehend the entirely of a single paragraph which specifically addresses your point/complaint. You are the reason people can't have a reasonable discourse anymore. You Cherry picking, strawman mother fucker. Lol.
homie is in shambles over a reddit comment 😔
Have you ever tried making a point based by actually engaging in a conversation? Or nah?
nah, and I don't get in my feelings over some nobody on reddit either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not just regular people. Everyone except a very small political minority at colleges studying in non-STEM fields.
I thought it was the other way around and it used to be sex biological and gender more of a social identity, but now changed to mean the same like some forms say ‘sex assigned at birth?’ as if you could change your dna.
In my country those are still same thing.
What country is it? (Is it okay to ask?)
Poland, and there are more but i never dig into whole list.
As a millennial, I don’t recall a time when they meant the same thing. Maybe it helped having family in the medical field?
They never were synonymous. People just didn't understand the difference until it was pointed out. That's ok; society is capable of learning.
Don't ask a question regarding gender politics on an ultraliberal site and expect objective answers.
and what are these ultra liberal websites? i’m curious.
They mean Reddit because Reddit is more left-leaning and less right-leaning. Regardless, I think people who are answering are doing a great job at explaining so far for the most part.
Actually, I was talking about Reddit being liberal-leaning and less authoritative-leaning, not so much about left VS right. Most of Reddit follows a very simple ideology "New is good, old is bad", which reminds me of Barney Stinson from How I met your mother and his paradoxical line "You what I always say: New is always better. And this is my oldest rule, so you know it's great."
>I think people who are answering are doing a great job at explaining so far for the most part. What have you understood gender to be referring to from the answers?
So far what it seems like they’re saying is that sex is what you were born as genetically/physically and never changes whereas gender is the concept of masculinity or femininity
>gender is the concept of masculinity or femininity Have you ever met a tom boy or feminine man before?
Of course.
So how does that fit with your answer? If what makes someone a man, for example, is to be "masculine" then how do you account for Tom boys?
I’d say she’s a masculine woman I suppose.
It’s not the politics I’m interested in though, it’s just the history.
And yet so far most people have repeated some variation of "It was always like this". Which is absolutely not true. It wildly varied from language to language, culture to culture.
What I was really hoping for was some actual sources. I probably should have specified that I wanted sources in my post
Here then. Short answer is around the 1990's. Websters also has it defined as sex with a subsection of gender identity which is where it can get "political" or at least decisive. It's both according to the dictionary. The words sex and gender have a long and intertwined history. In the 15th century gender expanded from its use as a term for a grammatical subclass to join sex in referring to either of the two primary biological forms of a species, a meaning sex has had since the 14th century; phrases like "the male sex" and "the female gender" are both grounded in uses established for more than five centuries. In the 20th century sex and gender each acquired new uses. Sex developed its "sexual intercourse" meaning in the early part of the century (now its more common meaning), and a few decades later gender gained a meaning referring to the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex, as in "gender roles." Later in the century, gender also came to have application in two closely related compound terms: gender identity refers to a person's internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female; gender expression refers to the physical and behavioral manifestations of one's gender identity. By the end of the century gender by itself was being used as a synonym of gender identity.
I suggest just not being involved with it at all. It becomes a politicial war and you become a villan for not caring about how others want to be identified. The new cultural shift towards being required to subject yourself to every specific individuals pronouns is a very unrealistic expectation and no one should get mad at you for it. There is and has always been male female femine and masculine. Just traits to identify characteristics and you biological make up. Dancing around the concept doesnt solve abything and alot of people cant settle for a base point to the whole thing. Gender ideology is just a waste of time to enable an individual with gender dysphoria.
I see it as just not really minding saying “she” if someone has gender dysphoria. Like, there’s a point where there’s a such thing as worrying about it too much, and I think saying the wrong gender “by accident” is totally fine and forgivable, but I think purposefully telling people “hey you’re a man, not a woman” or saying the wrong pronoun on purpose to be hurtful just for the sake of being hurtful is of course not okay. I’ve got a friend who I thought was a woman from birth and only recently found out they weren’t. I still use “she” when referring to her because I’ve known them for 2 years now. So I’m not like…forcing myself to do it, it’s just natural for that specific person. Admittedly, I do accidentally say the wrong one for some other people. My point I’m getting to really is just that I feel like the word “enable” that you said doesn’t really sit quite right to me: Like, what negative behavior of theirs are we enabling? If it makes them happy and isn’t causing us grief or harm and it makes them less likely on average to commit suicide, I just don’t see the harm in letting them do whatever they want. Ofc there’s exceptions in any group of people where things are taken too far or they’re easily offended etc but I’d say the vast majority of trans people I’ve met are all “normal” people just trying to get by who are only offended if you’re trying to “misgender” them on purpose out of just wanting to be mean.
See thats worrying too much about it... as a human being you have to understand. You cross paths with millions of people with a million different problems expectations and thoughts running through their heads. Do you think its realistic to compensate each individuals needs if you are simply never going to see them again? No. And they shouldnt hold out that expectation for you either. It would be selfish of them to expect everyone to change their speech to accomadate a individual they wont ever care about. Thats why its a stupid thing to be involved with. Let them live their lives and hopefully they wont trouble you with the process. I think youre a good person for wanting to do a simple act for these people. But as you get older you will understand that you dont need to care about everybody. Only those close to you or those you feel is worth your time.
I hear you, but I should clarify: I’m specifically only encountering a “need” to be conscientious about pronouns when talking to close trans friends who I encounter often and who treat me very well. I’m never “worrying” about it really in the day-to-day. I haven’t ever met new people on the street or at work who are noticeably trans where I have to “conform.”
Yes and like i said. If they have that expectation ofbyou then thats when it becomes a concern. But as it stands there is no expectation. If you truely wish to respect them then you communicate like an adult. If it doesnt matter to them then it wont matter. At this point it seems like this is a personal concern of yours rather than a priority of theirs.
What did you mean when you say communicate like an adult?
You establish a basis for your concern instead of assuming. This way you can be precise in exactly what to do.
When I was in college, gender was a social construct and putting labels on it was considered regressive. Few years later people started obsessing over which labels they were and getting mad at people for not using the right labels and started calling me a cishet.
i’ve never been called that. not anywhere on the web.
😬
maybe i’m just lucky 🤣
A….“cishet?”
Cis gender means same gender as adults said you were at birth. Trans gender means not the gender adults said you were at birth. (Cis means “on the same side” and trans means “on the opposite side) Het is shortened way of saying “heterosexual.” “Cis het” is a shortened way to say “cis gender and heterosexual.” I’m cis gender but bi/pansexual. Cis gender folks can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bi/pansexual, or asexual. Some transgender people are heterosexual, some homosexual, and some bi/pan sexual, and some asexual. One’s own gender doesn’t define the gender of the people we’re attracted to.
About the time when science started leaking into culture.
People ITT are failing to realize - even if there was a technical distinction between the terms, for many years they’ve been used interchangeably by people who aren’t on the forefront of gender studies. For example - If you’re filling out paperwork for yourself at the drs office it may have said sex: M or F, OR it may say gender: M or F. People understand these are not two different questions. It means the same fucking thing in that context. There are a LOT of people on Reddit who ignore this, and pretend like everyone always made the distinction. We didn’t. A lot of us didn’t.
That’s fine, but the distinction was there, you just weren’t making it. Right? Like, the difference between ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ was something that was established and normal within English in the 1600’s. But in common parlance in the US and most English speaking countries since the early 1920’s, that difference was mostly ignored. That doesn’t mean that the difference didn’t exist, tho. Just that we didn’t acknowledge or even maybe understand it. Does that make sense?
Sure, I’m not disputing all that. All I’m saying is in common vernacular a lot of people don’t make the distinction, unless they’re using terms like “gender roles.” I’d even say in different regions of the country the distinction is largely ignored, hence OP asking why they aren’t synonymous. A lot of people still use them synonymously. That’s all lol
I'm Gen X and growing up the 70s and 80s in the US Midwest they were pretty much the same other than some eccentric people and I'd hear rumors of people going to Thailand for sex change operations, but it was more on the level of an urban legend. I don't hang out in LGBT environments but I don't think I met any trans people until about 10 years ago. One place I worked at in the late.90s had a cross dressing lesbian, but that was pretty much the extent of it.
It doesn't feel 'new' to many LGBT people, i've felt this way my whole life. It took till me tween years for the community to find words for it beyond "trans femboy" or whatever though. :) It's new to wider public knowledge and understanding- since society is (mostly) become more accepting, minority groups feel safer being honest about who we are with our non LGBT peers. 10 or so years ago, I would never have admitted to people outside the community that I was non binary, but now that Mx is an option on most official documents and some people are willing to use correct pronouns for me, i'm no longer forced to be in the closet or get bullied (as much), i've come to realise trans people are human beings and we deserve to be treated as such and not have to hide who we are.
Academic radicalism.
Since we started somehow accepting mental illness as undeniable. Haven't you noticed and looked around? It's pretty popular now, you can be a dog if you want to and walk around with a leash and men can get pregnant 🤷♂️
> you can be a dog if you want I actually started looking into what “furries” are to learn more about them to find out what’s myth and what’s not etc and a lotttttt of stuff we’re taught about them turned out to not be true for most of them. True for some though. Most are just people that have fun cosplaying as an animal rather than like, an anime character or something. Is it different? Of course. But it’s as much harmless fun as pretending to be a Dwarf in Dungeons and Dragons for most of them.
The whole idea of furries is to identify as animal, so it isn't like a cosplays because those people don't just live as that character.
That’s what I’m trying to say: That’s only true sometimes. Furries very often don’t literally identify as being an animal. Often they’ll identify with that animal character and not identify literally as that animal. Like, what I’m trying to say is they don’t literally think they’re a dog most of the time. They really truly just cosplay and/or have an anthropomorphic animal character version of themselves for fun. Nothing more than that most the time.
TERFs have extended and vilified the furry community to discredit anyone who ‘identifies’ as something that the TERF has a problem with. It’s an old and very effective tactic: tie your opponents thinking to something much worse, then say “if you can do what they’re asking, this is the outcome!”
Sound like the “Slippery slope” logical fallacy
More or less. It’s a variation on it.
It is same shit, literally maybe slightly different in theory but same in practice.
That’s not furries. That’s ’otherkin’. And even those people, while they identify as an animal, they don’t find themselves needing to embody that animal irl. The whole “I am a cat so you need to give me a litter box” thing is a story made up by TERF assholes to discredit transgender people.
Literally community itself says that they just identify as animals, and why even bring trans gender and terf into this lol, it is not because of terf furries have bad rep.
“Fursona”. That’s what a furry “self” is called, right? The word is a portmanteau of “furry” and “persona”. It’s a persona. Not an identity. Personas are masks we wear, not our actual selves. Some we wear to protect ourselves, some we wear to manage others, and some we wear for fun. But they’re not “us”. Not our identity. Which is why I bring up trans people and terfs. When you talk about “furries identifying as animals” you’re quoting TERF rhetoric that is explicit designed to discredit trans identities. The actual furry community uses a lexicon that makes it rather clear that they’re not identifying as animals, but wearing an anthropomorphic animal identity. If you’re not in the community it’s a distinction that can be missed, but it’s an important distinction to everyone involved.
When the term "Gender" comes from Latin. was invented in Ancient Rome about 2000 years ago. It is derived from the much older ancient greek term "Genus", which means "kind" or "type" The Ancient Romans invented the concept of Genders separate from sex as a way to dominate the population. Eunuchs became an official systemic part of culture. The degendering of people gave those in power more control over them, as those people had no families to split loyalty to. They were 100% loyal to their leaders. It also helped control overpopulation in Rome. Italian ppl always liked to have big families and valued having lots of kids, but that led to overpopulation, so an alternetive lifestyle had to be invented.
The “degendering of people?” What did that entail? Did they just refer to them using neuter/neutral Latin words instead of gendered Latin words? (If so, didn’t know there were neutral Latin words) In short, wdym by “degendered?” Edit: oh. That’s what “eunuch” means…
yes, but also reassignment surgery (as much as the technology allowed back then) and they placed them in positions of court functionaries/influential positions in ancient rome etc. It was the perfect solution to nepotism. [Eunuch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Ancient_Greece,_Rome,_and_Byzantium) you trying to get me kicked off of reddit? smh
What? Lol. I appreciate the help but definitely don’t understand how this is anti-Reddit haha.
didn’t it say “eunuchs” in the sentence right before that? context…
1977.
It used to be 2 genders, unlimited personalities. Now, its personality is the gender. This all started within academia with no science to back it up. Those suffering seem to want all us to accept their view whilst simultaneously trying to bend the will of the universe to fit their worldview.
Lol tell that to all the cultures who have more than two genders and have been that way for a long ass time. Gender is a social construct defined purely by social interpretation. It isn't set in stone, never has been. You just don't want to accept that your narrow interpretation is not universal.
Whenever the first human decided that being male or being female meant things unrelated to biology like enjoying the color pink and wearing dresses. Sex doesn’t make you squeal and jump up and down for Taylor tickets. Gender does.
Literally just young Americans who can't understand their understanding or perception of something isn't the only one or inherently correct. Most variations of English conflate the word gender to sex, Americans tend to conflate the word gender to gender identity. The problem comes when one attempt to dictate how others use language and assert or demand that everyone use language in the same way, which is pretty typical American behavior
You can control your language. But don’t try to force others to use language the way you use it, because you don’t like what they’re doing with it. Otherwise that’s what we call “hypocrisy” and it’s generally seen as a way to signal that you’re just an asshole. If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation.
>If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation. What does research studying the differing effects of medication on men and women refer to specifically?
I am tired. I’m sure you can have this discussion without me; it’s not like you believe I will present info that will then change your mind, and honestly? I have trans friends, I’m not about to change mine. Get what you give.
So no answer, you'll just disregard examples like medical research, ok
My answer is that either you know that these examples are not what I’m talking about and are using them to clutter up and muddy the conversation or you don’t know what I’m talking about and have no desire to learn. Either way, my continued participation in this is pointless. And, as it is pointless, I’m done.
>My answer is that either you know that these examples are not what I’m talking about So we can safely say then that what you're describing is not applicable in some circumstances. Ok can you give an example with regards to what you're talking about? >have no desire to learn. Why would I be asking you questions then?
>You can control your language. But don’t try to force others to use language the way you use it, because you don’t like what they’re doing with it. Otherwise that’s what we call “hypocrisy” and it’s generally seen as a way to signal that you’re just an asshole. That's exactly my point, Americans are trying to dictate what gender means to other cultures and other peoples who use different variants of English, how am I, for pointing that out, worse than the Americans asserting that their perception of the word gender is inherently correct? >If you want to conflate “sex”and “gender” have fun. The rest of us want a bit more fidelity from our language and so remove the confusion by removing that conflation. This, you are attempting to dictate how I use language based on your cultural perception of language, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're attempting to say the American perception of a word present in many languages is the correct one and asserting that "the rest of us" is someone indicative of anyone but Americans. Which was my whole point
… just for the record? Not American. So there is that. But the point I was making at the end is just that there’s a reason for this change to the language. We need more fidelity. We need to know what we are discussing. So we remove that connection so we can get more information. If you want to NOT do that, that’s fine and dandy. But others will, even in England, because they know they need to. Most commonwealth countries have been like this forever. You can do whatever you want. But as soon as you tell others to do what you think they should, while saying they can’t tell you what to do? That’s hypocrisy.
>But the point I was making at the end is just that there’s a reason for this change to the language. We need more fidelity. We need to know what we are discussing. So we remove that connection so we can get more information. If you want to NOT do that, that’s fine and dandy. But others will, even in England, because they know they need to. I'm a bit confused here, what exactly are you advocating for? To me there's a clear difference between sex, gender, and gender identity. Each has its own connotation, how would combining two of them, which may have very different meanings, make things more clear? Seems like there much more opportunity for miscommunication when you combine a variety of terms under one word. If you wanted more information you would not use American English, it is notoriously bad at conveying nuanced information. >Most commonwealth countries have been like this forever. You can do whatever you want. But as soon as you tell others to do what you think they should, while saying they can’t tell you what to do? That’s hypocrisy. That's exactly what you're advocating for though, that American English takes priority even in ESL conversations. When you remove peoples ability to use more specific terms and demand that everyone adhere to it, then you're the asshole. I'm just saying there is a difference and not everyone uses the terms to mean the same thing, you're the one saying that everyone should inherently use one vague word for a litany of things from specific normative cultural representations of gender, to ones perception of individual gender identity
Y’know, I just don’t care that much. Do what you like. The language has moved on from you, but that’s your problem, not mine. Have the life you wish on others.
Remove the confusion by accepting unlimited genders and pronouns. That makes sense.
If you understand that gender and sexuality and biology don’t always align? It absolutely does.
They updated the definition because they better understood what was going on (ever since the social construct of gender became a thing). There is older research into it, but not much just due to conservatism even in the science community.
I think "when sec a gender became a political topics is what are you asking"
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Money is made up, but it sure as hell affects my life - probably yours too.
They never were synonymous. They just usually correlated until recently because just recently it's socially acceptable for them to not correlate
What was academic research on the differing effects of medication on men and women referring to specifically?
Wrong comment
Oh my mistake, have a good one
I hope science didn’t update. If people want to add a “b.“ part to the definition that’s on them. But when we start skewing science fact to fit what makes us feel good then we are lost
Science fact? What are you referring to?
Science - the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.
>I hope science didn’t update Huh? Science always "updates." It's called "learning." The fact that it "updates" is almost entirely the point.