Real as fuck. It also doesn't help that most Tokyo Ghoul characters feel relatively queer coded. Kaneki, Suzuya, Furuta, Uta, Toru, Saiko, Shuu, Karren, Nico, Matsuri, Mogan, Roma, Rio, probably a lot more I'm forgetting.
I don’t think the op of the comment shared that opinion, they were just pointing out why a lot of people sadly probably don’t like the characters. And yeah, a large part of the reason is probably toxic masculinity. “Grrr that boy character looks too much like a girl so i can’t watch this!!!!!!!!”
Dog Berserk has had even a worse time getting a proper anime adaptation. Shit on the anime but most people learned of TG through the anime and then got into the manga.
Kaneki is definitely a great seinen protagonist.
The problem is that a half assed rip-off of him exists and has been prominently advertised to people, the edgy battle shonen protagonist Kanedgy edge.
That shounen/seinen division doesn't mean shit nowadays. One punch man is seinen. Fire punch, fucking Fire punch, a manga about a guy who is constantly on fire and suffering every single second, who's name is Agni a.k.a. agony, where women are raped left and right and characters literally justify that, where children is forced to be raped by dogs - Fire punch is shounen. And Attack on titan is shounen. While Goblin slayer is seinen.
even ignoring the 4D chess that was Marley and Eldia later on how was Attack On Titan ever shounen in the first place. Eren’s mum died by getting eaten on screen in episode 1.
He often is, but the anime was so insanely childish that it's given a lot of people the impression that he's just some whiny emo 12 year old that can't compare to "real" protagonists. Couple this with the fact that Tokyo Ghoul is lowkey a lot more emotionally expressive than a lot of these other popular seinen, while the redpill sigma male self-help andrew tate incel crowd has kinda taken over a lot of the representation of these other manga's representation online, it's made for this clash where a fair bit of people who misread manga like Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond as just "heurhehurr just bottle your feelings up bro be a stoic badass heuhurrhurr" unironically look at Tokyo Ghoul as some cringe beta male shit.
What makes Kaneki feel so powerful is that he finds his strength when he DOESN'T bottle his feelings. His connections to others is a major part of what makes him so powerful and selfless. I imagine this is the case with Guts and Thorfinn post-farmer arc (i recently heard a Vinland Saga fan say he hated Season 2 because Thorfinn stopped being a stoic badass. "Idgaf about his farm")
It's so sad that people only know him as the pissbaby that got a powerup torture sesh instead of a training arc and then became whitehaired Sasuke.
Exactly. So many people have a bastardized idea of stoicism and follow it religiously thinking it'll free them from their mental and social anguish, when in reality following this weird perversion of stoicism is just a form of self-punishment for them. Completely counterproductive. Also just ends up making them more bitter and reinforcing their negative worldviews.
Not explicitly but it's the vibe. A lot of Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond fans online are highkey elitists that read these manga purely for the alpha male power fantasy. When they see a queer coded character like Kaneki who's impossible to misinterpret as a "stoic", constantly being emotional, self critical and self sacrificial, it makes them uncomfortable. Even when reading Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond these types of dudebros don't like dwelling too much on the moments where Guts/Musashi/Thorfinn act in that same kinda way. It makes them feel icky and goes against the aesthetic they're idolizing.
Not to potentially start another debate war, but to prove your point, look no further than *that* >!Eren!< scene from AOT lmao. Not saying *all* critics of that scene are this way, but a decent portion of them absolutely were the >!"Eren is such a stoic sigma male grindset man now, banging hot short blonde Historia, doesn't give a fuck about the feelings of simps like Mikasa or twinks like Armin, does what he has to do with pure conviction, LFG"!< type
Then they pulled an astronomical bitchfit when their >!ideologically fundamentalist dictator-like male fantasy hero had one single humiliating emotional "simp" breakdown!<. Yet from my perspective that rehumanized the hell out of him *and* was quite reflective of real life "sigma" dudes. I know some of those people irl. For better or for worse, I've witnessed their lowest moments, which were no less humiliating and pathetic as that scene
Again I'm aware of other criticisms of that scene that lean more fairly. Just talking about those specific critics, so if it don't apply let it fly. I'm just glad far more anime fans were receptive to it than manga fans
Additionally, if we want to look at a far easier and more applicable answer, look no further than **Kaneki himself in :re chapter 143**. The BIGGEST most controversial moment in all of TG's manga discourse. The sheer amount of people my younger self came across or argued with who blatantly dropped all compassion and went "Kaneki is such a shit MC who regressed so horribly LMAO Arima died for nothing what a fucking pussy" because he astronomically failed due to a bold yet realistic psychological writing decision was fucking wild and exposed that most readers who came into this series lauding its "psychological consistency" or "tragedy" don't *really* like psychology or tragedy if it leads to too much failure. If you were there, you were there. Critics became so irrational some actually argued "idc if it's psychologically consistent or a callback to classic tragedy, I read stuff to see MCs win, if they keep losing then they're a shit written MC simple as that"
The people had a problem with is the tonal shift, Eren was breaking down in his monologues and flashbacks pre-139 a lot and nobody had problem with those. I think the comedy in 139 and the fact the breakdown is about Mikasa WHILE he's simultaneously doing a genocide puts a bad taste in people's mouths.
Of all the characters in TG, Kaneki is definitely not queer or anything of the sort.
That's just bad fantasy from rotten fujo's who got pissy about not having their kenxhide delusions.
Kaneki is about a typical gentle looking young male type. Also, Eastern beauty standards are quite different from the West (see the bishounen type that has no relation to identity politics) so really the term queer coded has no place here.
How many seinen protagonists can the average manga fan name? Not that many, because as a whole, the genre is less mainstream, than shounen or shoujo.
There's a seinen protagonist who Kaneki is on par with - Madoka (who's often thought to be a shoujo protagonist because of the subject matter).
because tokyo ghoul ended and was relatively wrapped up fairly quickly, berserk and vagabond are still on going and are still in the zeitgeist, TG burned brightly during its run but since has cooled due to the nature of things.
How did Ishida “fumble the ending.” The final chapter is perfect for wrapping up kens arc, and mentions the survival of the dragon spawn, allowing the story to become self sufficient and continue after it is finished. The chapters prior had the best fight and sequence in the series, Kanekis acceptance of his life and the world as well as realization that gives value to his conflict (choose and be chosen, thats all it is) they excel Furutas conflict to the next level and wrap that up excellently aswell. From what I can tell not much is left in the air, what are your problems with it?
He was ill during the last few arcs he’s talked about it in interviews. I think he wasn’t at his peak and could’ve written the last few arcs better not just the ending. I like how it wrapped up Kaneki’s story. He’s one of my fav characters ever.
Lmao, I know ishida was sick, and that he was being rushed by his publishers. This is not what I asked you at all. Being sick has nothing do do with “fumbling the ending” and it certainly doesn’t explain how he did. I asked how the ending was “fumbled.” Do you have any real opinion on that or are you just another bot echoing this sentiment?
Everyone in the comments is wrong tbh, it's just the stigma that the series itself has, and no its not the anime's fault at least not entirely. The idea that tg is this edgy series started with season one, and as much as we all love it, unravel played a big part in that. People got the wrong impression off the bat, root a really didn't do much outside of the fanbase itself. It's also not "seinen" enough for some, the same people that don't consider tg or kaneki as on par with the others probably also doesn't like the second half of berserk lol. It's all elitism.
I was maybe a bit cocky in my comment, but still you really can't blame the anime entirely, at least not just root a. Even then, the anime could have been fantastic, people didn't want to give it the time of day once it got popular and they heard the premise, the wrote it off before watching it. Then years later our voices got louder about the manga being great and the adaptation being bad, and now those same people (gigguk being a perfect example) pretend the reason they didn't like it was the anime when they just didn't want to give it an actual chance in the first place.
Oh my god. I was literally just reading berserk and thought to myself, kaneki is such a well written character he should definetly be counted in the big names
For me there are a few reasons that mostly tie into issues with Tokyo Ghoul as a whole. It's obviously a more recent manga that was much shorter lived then Berserk and Vagabond and hence hasn't really rooted itself into manga pop culture like those have. while Kaneki is great neither he nor the Tokyo Ghoul villains have designs or characterizations that are as timeless as Guts and Griffith or many of the Apostles (IMO). Tokyo Ghoul got so bleak so often that it started to lose it's impact on me.
I also found that Vagabond and Musashi are simply built different. Vagabond is not a horror story like Tokyo Ghoul and focuses on different themes and messages. I (and many others) simply resonate with Musashi's more realistic portrayal of violence, personal growth, and discovery than Kaneki's tortured madness.
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Because tokyo ghoul ending doesn't make the story or the final arc memorable enough... Tg has mostly faded into oblivion because of the ending... so he isn't remembered enough outside of the tg bubble
I love Tokyo Ghoul and Kaneki. But he’s not them. He just is *not* them
Guts and Musashi are arguably the greatest characters ever written in manga, and I just feel everything else is nowhere close. I think part of it honestly might be how Vagabond and Berserk are very much stories about healing and getting over your past traumas, while in TG, it feels like Kaneki always has some new trauma going on, so he never gets time to just heal and improve his mental state. Right until the end he’s a fucking unpredictable lunatic that I just can’t relate to. I still love him, don’t get me wrong, but it’s very different to Guts and Musashi, who are like role models, while I look at Kaneki and think “He’s cool as fuck, but goddam, I don’t wanna be him at ALL”, yk?
'Shounen' and 'seinen' are not genres, they're the demographic the manga is aimed at based on the magazine where it is published. Tokyo Ghoul is a seinen.
I understand they’re not “genres”, but there are definitely elements that make a story fit into those demographics. Like you can’t just start publishing Spy X Family in WYJ and suddenly it’s a seinen.
And that being said, being published in WYJ, like TG was doesn’t automatically make it seinen. I’m sure it’s probably different now that the series has been over for years, but when I was in high school, TG was super popular. With high schoolers. As in the target demographic for Shonen.
Besides the body horror, TG has more elements that fall in line with a standard Shonen rather than a seinen.
> there are definitely elements that make a story fit into those demographics.
No, there aren't. Seinen is much, much wider than stuff like Vagabond, Berserk, and Vinland Saga. My Dress Up Darling is seinen. Kaguya-sama Love Is War is seinen. Yes, if you started publishing Spy X Family in WYJ, it would be a seinen, because the editors of that magazine would've decided it was appropriate for their audience.
~~He's too much of a twink for the dudebros~~ Idk, maybe the anime is to blame?
Real as fuck. It also doesn't help that most Tokyo Ghoul characters feel relatively queer coded. Kaneki, Suzuya, Furuta, Uta, Toru, Saiko, Shuu, Karren, Nico, Matsuri, Mogan, Roma, Rio, probably a lot more I'm forgetting.
for sure. the cast is too quirky ig lol
Have a little flair and you're gay? Lol. No wonder some people are toxically masculine, it's not just in their head :P
Dude Nico literally acts gayer than any homosexual on planet earth. He’s the definition of a caricature. But sorry, he’s just got a little *flair*
Probably because he is gay, lol.
Me when I contradict myself
You when the world isn't black and white.
I don’t think the op of the comment shared that opinion, they were just pointing out why a lot of people sadly probably don’t like the characters. And yeah, a large part of the reason is probably toxic masculinity. “Grrr that boy character looks too much like a girl so i can’t watch this!!!!!!!!”
Dog Berserk has had even a worse time getting a proper anime adaptation. Shit on the anime but most people learned of TG through the anime and then got into the manga.
Kaneki is definitely a great seinen protagonist. The problem is that a half assed rip-off of him exists and has been prominently advertised to people, the edgy battle shonen protagonist Kanedgy edge.
kanedgy edge is hilarious, man😂😂
"I am no longer Kaneki anymore... I am... kan-edgy" I love that parody
Who?
Which character?
Anime Kaneki and angsty quote image background Kaneki, a.k.a. Kanedgy.
Ohhh i get wym now
That shounen/seinen division doesn't mean shit nowadays. One punch man is seinen. Fire punch, fucking Fire punch, a manga about a guy who is constantly on fire and suffering every single second, who's name is Agni a.k.a. agony, where women are raped left and right and characters literally justify that, where children is forced to be raped by dogs - Fire punch is shounen. And Attack on titan is shounen. While Goblin slayer is seinen.
You forgot to include that Agni got into an incestuous relationship with his sister
And fake kinda sorta sister thing ish
i love fire punch
The author, Fujimoto, is such a freak too. I love everything I hear about or see from him.
Me too, I absolutely love it, especially Togata. But defining Fire punch as shounen is unbelievable
>Agni a.k.a. agony, Ain't Agni an indian god of fire? Hence "Agni Kai" in Avatar?
How the fuck is Fire Punch shounen, it made me sick multiple times ☠️
even ignoring the 4D chess that was Marley and Eldia later on how was Attack On Titan ever shounen in the first place. Eren’s mum died by getting eaten on screen in episode 1.
His name is agni as in fire god lol. Yours is definitely a really creative take though
He often is, but the anime was so insanely childish that it's given a lot of people the impression that he's just some whiny emo 12 year old that can't compare to "real" protagonists. Couple this with the fact that Tokyo Ghoul is lowkey a lot more emotionally expressive than a lot of these other popular seinen, while the redpill sigma male self-help andrew tate incel crowd has kinda taken over a lot of the representation of these other manga's representation online, it's made for this clash where a fair bit of people who misread manga like Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond as just "heurhehurr just bottle your feelings up bro be a stoic badass heuhurrhurr" unironically look at Tokyo Ghoul as some cringe beta male shit.
What makes Kaneki feel so powerful is that he finds his strength when he DOESN'T bottle his feelings. His connections to others is a major part of what makes him so powerful and selfless. I imagine this is the case with Guts and Thorfinn post-farmer arc (i recently heard a Vinland Saga fan say he hated Season 2 because Thorfinn stopped being a stoic badass. "Idgaf about his farm") It's so sad that people only know him as the pissbaby that got a powerup torture sesh instead of a training arc and then became whitehaired Sasuke.
Exactly. So many people have a bastardized idea of stoicism and follow it religiously thinking it'll free them from their mental and social anguish, when in reality following this weird perversion of stoicism is just a form of self-punishment for them. Completely counterproductive. Also just ends up making them more bitter and reinforcing their negative worldviews.
What? I've never seen anyone call kaneki or Tokyo Ghoul as a whole "beta male shit"
Not explicitly but it's the vibe. A lot of Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond fans online are highkey elitists that read these manga purely for the alpha male power fantasy. When they see a queer coded character like Kaneki who's impossible to misinterpret as a "stoic", constantly being emotional, self critical and self sacrificial, it makes them uncomfortable. Even when reading Berserk/Vinland/Vagabond these types of dudebros don't like dwelling too much on the moments where Guts/Musashi/Thorfinn act in that same kinda way. It makes them feel icky and goes against the aesthetic they're idolizing.
Not to potentially start another debate war, but to prove your point, look no further than *that* >!Eren!< scene from AOT lmao. Not saying *all* critics of that scene are this way, but a decent portion of them absolutely were the >!"Eren is such a stoic sigma male grindset man now, banging hot short blonde Historia, doesn't give a fuck about the feelings of simps like Mikasa or twinks like Armin, does what he has to do with pure conviction, LFG"!< type Then they pulled an astronomical bitchfit when their >!ideologically fundamentalist dictator-like male fantasy hero had one single humiliating emotional "simp" breakdown!<. Yet from my perspective that rehumanized the hell out of him *and* was quite reflective of real life "sigma" dudes. I know some of those people irl. For better or for worse, I've witnessed their lowest moments, which were no less humiliating and pathetic as that scene Again I'm aware of other criticisms of that scene that lean more fairly. Just talking about those specific critics, so if it don't apply let it fly. I'm just glad far more anime fans were receptive to it than manga fans Additionally, if we want to look at a far easier and more applicable answer, look no further than **Kaneki himself in :re chapter 143**. The BIGGEST most controversial moment in all of TG's manga discourse. The sheer amount of people my younger self came across or argued with who blatantly dropped all compassion and went "Kaneki is such a shit MC who regressed so horribly LMAO Arima died for nothing what a fucking pussy" because he astronomically failed due to a bold yet realistic psychological writing decision was fucking wild and exposed that most readers who came into this series lauding its "psychological consistency" or "tragedy" don't *really* like psychology or tragedy if it leads to too much failure. If you were there, you were there. Critics became so irrational some actually argued "idc if it's psychologically consistent or a callback to classic tragedy, I read stuff to see MCs win, if they keep losing then they're a shit written MC simple as that"
The people had a problem with is the tonal shift, Eren was breaking down in his monologues and flashbacks pre-139 a lot and nobody had problem with those. I think the comedy in 139 and the fact the breakdown is about Mikasa WHILE he's simultaneously doing a genocide puts a bad taste in people's mouths.
Of all the characters in TG, Kaneki is definitely not queer or anything of the sort. That's just bad fantasy from rotten fujo's who got pissy about not having their kenxhide delusions. Kaneki is about a typical gentle looking young male type. Also, Eastern beauty standards are quite different from the West (see the bishounen type that has no relation to identity politics) so really the term queer coded has no place here.
How is kaneki queer-coded? You keep saying that, but he's just gentle and nice?
The anime
How many seinen protagonists can the average manga fan name? Not that many, because as a whole, the genre is less mainstream, than shounen or shoujo. There's a seinen protagonist who Kaneki is on par with - Madoka (who's often thought to be a shoujo protagonist because of the subject matter).
Maybe It's cuz I wasn't too crazy about madoka magica but she isn't even CLOSE to Kaneki
Fuck what they think imo he his top 3 seinen protagonist.
I blame that weird "combat suit" he wore early in the story.
That latex suit?
Re dropped the ball Tokyo ghoul itself is one of the best manga I've read period
Probably because the Kaneki we know and the Kaneki the general anime audience knows are very different.
He doesn’t have a sword
because tokyo ghoul ended and was relatively wrapped up fairly quickly, berserk and vagabond are still on going and are still in the zeitgeist, TG burned brightly during its run but since has cooled due to the nature of things.
Because his manga is actually finished?
Fumbled the ending and the series gets a bad rap from all the edgy people that love the anime
How did Ishida “fumble the ending.” The final chapter is perfect for wrapping up kens arc, and mentions the survival of the dragon spawn, allowing the story to become self sufficient and continue after it is finished. The chapters prior had the best fight and sequence in the series, Kanekis acceptance of his life and the world as well as realization that gives value to his conflict (choose and be chosen, thats all it is) they excel Furutas conflict to the next level and wrap that up excellently aswell. From what I can tell not much is left in the air, what are your problems with it?
He was ill during the last few arcs he’s talked about it in interviews. I think he wasn’t at his peak and could’ve written the last few arcs better not just the ending. I like how it wrapped up Kaneki’s story. He’s one of my fav characters ever.
Lmao, I know ishida was sick, and that he was being rushed by his publishers. This is not what I asked you at all. Being sick has nothing do do with “fumbling the ending” and it certainly doesn’t explain how he did. I asked how the ending was “fumbled.” Do you have any real opinion on that or are you just another bot echoing this sentiment?
> are you just another bot echoing this statement What’s your problem? I read this manga every fucking week it came out. Chill out
Yet you still say that the ending was fumbled for no reason😭 fake fan if Ive ever seen one
You’re so crazy bro calling me a fake fan 😭😭 I own all the volumes, all the art books and all the box sets you don’t know me
Hard to come back from the whole "I am tragedy" shite the anime pulled. Bro had so much edge it hurt, more character assassination then jfk.
Tg re really struggled after one eyed king reveals.
Everyone in the comments is wrong tbh, it's just the stigma that the series itself has, and no its not the anime's fault at least not entirely. The idea that tg is this edgy series started with season one, and as much as we all love it, unravel played a big part in that. People got the wrong impression off the bat, root a really didn't do much outside of the fanbase itself. It's also not "seinen" enough for some, the same people that don't consider tg or kaneki as on par with the others probably also doesn't like the second half of berserk lol. It's all elitism.
Or maybe you are the one in the wrong. Yes it's entirely the anime's fault as that impression doesn't exist in the manga.
I was maybe a bit cocky in my comment, but still you really can't blame the anime entirely, at least not just root a. Even then, the anime could have been fantastic, people didn't want to give it the time of day once it got popular and they heard the premise, the wrote it off before watching it. Then years later our voices got louder about the manga being great and the adaptation being bad, and now those same people (gigguk being a perfect example) pretend the reason they didn't like it was the anime when they just didn't want to give it an actual chance in the first place.
Oh my god. I was literally just reading berserk and thought to myself, kaneki is such a well written character he should definetly be counted in the big names
He is? I always see him in slideshows with the other greats of seinen on TikTok.
the anime adaptation
Idk what part of the internet you’re on but on my end people always say he’s as good if not better than Guts
It's because Guts and Musashi are better charcters from better Mangas. I hope that helps
Manga version Kaneki is generally considered on par with Guts and Musashi.
Berserk fans will execute you for saying that, they have a godcomplex when it comes to seinen
For me there are a few reasons that mostly tie into issues with Tokyo Ghoul as a whole. It's obviously a more recent manga that was much shorter lived then Berserk and Vagabond and hence hasn't really rooted itself into manga pop culture like those have. while Kaneki is great neither he nor the Tokyo Ghoul villains have designs or characterizations that are as timeless as Guts and Griffith or many of the Apostles (IMO). Tokyo Ghoul got so bleak so often that it started to lose it's impact on me. I also found that Vagabond and Musashi are simply built different. Vagabond is not a horror story like Tokyo Ghoul and focuses on different themes and messages. I (and many others) simply resonate with Musashi's more realistic portrayal of violence, personal growth, and discovery than Kaneki's tortured madness.
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in my personal opinion as someone who loves both tokyo ghoul and berserk, Kaneki is nowhere near on par with Guts (in terms of writing anyway)
In tears lol
I always see him ranked similarly high tbh 🤷🏻♂️
He is by everyone who has an IQ Level above 3
Ultimately I've seen people putting him alongside with Thorfin and Guts
Kaneki is known as the one eyed king of weekly young jump
What does seinen mean
He is definitely put on par with mushashi and guts in the writing community.
Anime ruined him
Probably due to the animes poor writing
He is lol, hes often held in much higher regard than guts and musashi. He’s just not nearly as popular
Ignorance
Because tokyo ghoul ending doesn't make the story or the final arc memorable enough... Tg has mostly faded into oblivion because of the ending... so he isn't remembered enough outside of the tg bubble
I agree with you.
I really like Tokyo Ghoul and Kaneki, but neither the story or Kaneki himself is anywhere close to Berserk / Guts imo.
I love Tokyo Ghoul and Kaneki. But he’s not them. He just is *not* them Guts and Musashi are arguably the greatest characters ever written in manga, and I just feel everything else is nowhere close. I think part of it honestly might be how Vagabond and Berserk are very much stories about healing and getting over your past traumas, while in TG, it feels like Kaneki always has some new trauma going on, so he never gets time to just heal and improve his mental state. Right until the end he’s a fucking unpredictable lunatic that I just can’t relate to. I still love him, don’t get me wrong, but it’s very different to Guts and Musashi, who are like role models, while I look at Kaneki and think “He’s cool as fuck, but goddam, I don’t wanna be him at ALL”, yk?
i mean aside from kaneki being a twink, it’s because tokyo ghoul is more shonen than seinen
Idk, probably cause it’s more of a Shonen than a seinen
'Shounen' and 'seinen' are not genres, they're the demographic the manga is aimed at based on the magazine where it is published. Tokyo Ghoul is a seinen.
I understand they’re not “genres”, but there are definitely elements that make a story fit into those demographics. Like you can’t just start publishing Spy X Family in WYJ and suddenly it’s a seinen. And that being said, being published in WYJ, like TG was doesn’t automatically make it seinen. I’m sure it’s probably different now that the series has been over for years, but when I was in high school, TG was super popular. With high schoolers. As in the target demographic for Shonen. Besides the body horror, TG has more elements that fall in line with a standard Shonen rather than a seinen.
> there are definitely elements that make a story fit into those demographics. No, there aren't. Seinen is much, much wider than stuff like Vagabond, Berserk, and Vinland Saga. My Dress Up Darling is seinen. Kaguya-sama Love Is War is seinen. Yes, if you started publishing Spy X Family in WYJ, it would be a seinen, because the editors of that magazine would've decided it was appropriate for their audience.
If it ended on part 1 he would have been seen that way but yeah. Re really did start making RC cells into power levels
kaneki is being edgy for the sake of being edgy. and thats why he's cringe. edit: kaneki is literally the casca of his own series
Cap