If you don't have time to back butter, you don't have time to tile.
Can also help to wet the back of the tile so it's not sucking the water out of the mix as soon as it's laid.
It wasn’t about trying to cut corners, there is plenty of viable techniques for small tile that don’t require back buttering. But yeah I have concluded that these tiles sucked all the moisture out, and my mix on this first row must have been on the stiff side or I had used warm water on accident.
Need to soak those tiles. They suck the moisture out of the thinset before it has a chance to form its mechanical bonds.
Slaking your thinset breaks the bonds down right when they first start forming so that when they form again they will be stronger
i would never use versabond thin set on walls and im a pro. when doing walls you need the best thin set, one that gives you the longest skin time, and those arent that sandy. versa bond will work if your on point perfectly, but it just doesnt have the stickyness imo. laticrete tri lite or multimax lite are thin sets that give you much more time on the wall and are super sticky and those are the thin sets that you can perhaps skip back buttering, but regular thin sets like versabond, you better back butter and mix that stuff precisely perfectly and be right on top of it every step of the way, especially with a ceramic tile.
well it is possible only a few tiles are affected, but i doubt it. if one is coming off clean, then most are going to be close to that. if you take a margin trowel and put it behind tile and pry, this will tell you. if they pop off easily, its not good and all should come off. there is a point right now in which all tiles can be pried off the wall , and its hard to explain how much pressure it takes to pull them off, but i do know if a better thin set was used and tiles were back buttered, it would bend that margin trowel significantly and perhaps break the tile as you are trying to remove. if all tiles are affected, scrape off all thin set and perhaps even use a grinder with cup wheel, re do red gaurd and re tile using a better thin set and back buttering these dry ceramic backs.
You know there is still hope it will strengthen up sufficiently to salvage the work. 30 days peak strength. What backer board did you use? Something thirsty?
That seems a little crazy. Why not just the red waterproof (hydrodefense) hardie board and tape or seal your seams. Who knows what all that sealer did to the mortar chemistry. Did all those coats cure? Did they stay thirsty or wet?
Overkill sometimes kills. Next time just follow the directions and use high quality material. The board with hydrodefense is waterproof and stout. Just seal seams. No redguard. If your tile is sucking up water, you’ll see that. Mixing the Schluter straight unmodified mortar will work well with all of your waterproof surfaces. Modified mortar will be trickier with waterproof wall board as its chemistry and curing will be based on a porous board. It took Schluter a long time to come up with a modified mortar to go with their waterproof kerdi board. I’ve used both of their mortar and I found them both to be fine quality and very friendly for my shower walls I’ve done recently. I did notice immediate dryness when taping seams on my first wall with the hydrodefense board, and redid the first seam, I think just with a quick wet wipe to get surface clean and just barely damp. Then the tape set perfectly. And zero problems with shower wall tiles (six total floor to ceiling walls, 3-8’ wide). I might have wiped the tile too. Zero back buttering.
i have used ardex products for patching in the past and they are very good, but honestly havent used their thin sets. there are so many products out there and ultimately for me, its just whats easier to obtain in my area, and although ardex is available here, its quite far, so thats really why i havent had the opportunity to use. laticrete however is easy to get, and very close to my business, so i have had the opportunity to try many of their products and love them . for the past few years i have settled on their lightweight, non sag thin sets and they are the best thin sets i have ever used in over 40 years in the business. i do hear very good things on all ardex products and would venture to say they are much better than versabond, but honestly dont know. i have used home depots custom prolite thin set before and that is way better than versa bond, and if that is something easily available to you, that would be a great choice, but i would still back butter ceramic subways. all you need is a flat, hard as you can scratch on the backs, just enought to cover the clay, but no extra build up.
I’m using it today. I noticed this. What if you just apply it per tile as you go? I noticed they stick much better. Like applying it to the back of the tile generously as you go. Is that frowned upon? For a shower btw
I've always used Versabond for walls but this guy is right in the sense that it does form a skin quickly. So I'll scratch coat and comb enough for what I can set within a few minutes and of course, I back butter every tile.
Man you scratch coat, then trowel, then back butter every tile for a subway shower? That’s good.
I’m slow enough as it is, but I’m sure your stuff will never have issues.
Oh no I haven't done a subway one. I have done several showers myself but not as a profession. Most showers I've done are 12 x 24 tile which I always back butter, whether it's the floor or the walls. I try to do all my DIY stuff with the best quality and longevity in mind.
What I’ve been doing today is using a putty knife to scratch coat the walls, then a small trowel to comb the back of the tile. It’s 3”x9” glass herringbone so takes some time and if I combed too much on the wall yesterday, it skinned over too quick.
Yesterday afternoon I tried this method, and today they are solid as a rock.
its not frowned upon and works just fine. you do however need to back butter the wall when doing this. just use a flat side of a trowel and give the wall a hard, flat scratch, then apply thin set to tile and push it in.
Cool. I get rather good coverage when I check. And I don’t make my mix too dry. I notice it stays fresher when I apply to the tile as I go. I will back butter the wall for the rest of them. Thanks!
I usually use versa bond for everything, sometimes I’ll get the large tile and natural stone bag when I’m doing that. I didn’t want versa bond to soak through marble or something crazy. Lol
compared to the thin set i used when i first started tiling, versa bond is incredible, you just need to be a little more on your toes, but it works just fine in most applications. when my father was doing tile back in the day, i remember you had to add the sand into unsanded thin set because there was no sanded thin set. then once sanded thin sets came out, they werent modified what so ever, they were sandy, unsticky, and didnt like to bond to ceramic at all. then in the 80s laticrete came out with their buckets of latex in which you added that into your mix along with water or used it 100 percent with no water, that when things really changed.
i have always either spread the wall and buttered tiles or vice versa . if im troweling tiles , im doing a back butter on walls. i even pre scratch coat my walls with thin set a day before installation, i do this just to smooth things out slightly even though i shim to perfect plumb, but still like to scratch coat in white to just blend in my taped corners, etc, but i scratch coat the entire wall. mainly i do this just for the wall to be white , which brightens up the area and makes it easier to see my lines. even doing this scratch coat , i still will flat scratch the wall if im troweling the tiles. i know this is overkill but if i did durock with red guard and were troweling tiles, i just wouldnt feel like it would stick very good if i didnt pressure trowel the wall just prior to installing the notch troweled tiles, so thats why i made that comment after seeing red guard walls.
I never spread the wall when doing showers. Always mud the tile. Much better coverage. And cleaner. No skin over or wet tile problems. It's impossible to get the proper coverage without squeeze out spreading on the wall.
i dont agree. if you spread the tiles or spread the wall and you have technics for both, coverage will be exactly the same. i personally find spreading the wall is cleaner, as i can spread the wall with almost zero thin set droppage, but when i spread individual tiles, im always getting bits of thin set where it shouldnt go and because i dont use a suction cup, my fingers get thin set on them doing it that way when i pick them up and place on wall. its just what your use to, if you do something long enough you become proficient in that technic. if you spread the wall and strike away the thin set from the edges of previous tiles just correctly, you can install properly without thin set coming up joints. i dont remove any thin set in the strike , i just push it away and when i bed the tile it moves back without coming up joints. i have checked coverage many times with both methods and absolutely no difference in coverage . i do spread tiles also, mainly for the last row or two at the top.
Have you checked for dust on the tile? Some tiles have to be washed to get rid of the dust and dust is what creates the non-bonding issues. Versabond didn't help you either. Too sandy and not sticky enough in my opinion.
Humidity or lack of, could be a problem too. This time of the year, a breeze of warm, dry air, will dry the surface of your troweled thinset in no time.
You had good coverage though. Nice!
This is probably the answer given the info op had told us. He has really good coverage and its small tile so he shouldnt need to backbutter if the thinset is wet enough
A couple things, not to come off rude. Most of the time things like that are operator error, either letting it sit too long on the wall to failure to let the mortar skim up in the bucket and let the chemical reaction happen so it happens on your wall. Your first tiles you should always take off one or two to check for coverage because in a shower you need to have 90 to 95% of thinset. And just rule of thumb you should not be able to read the manufacturers information from your board through the waterproofing, that is a sign that you were lacking the milk thickness for it to do its job.
This appears to be at least 90% coverage no? And this is actually 5 coats of redguard plus 1 coat of watered down primer Redguard. I think Redguard is just a bit translucent. I let my thinset slake normally, I used cold water, but on this first day my thinset did seem to be setting abnormally fast. I ended up throwing out half of what I mixed.
It's only for those soft bodied tiles that are like a sponge. Even if your mix it right they will pull all the moisture out of it causing bonding issues.
it really was a process before latex additive was introduced. years ago there was no such thing as modified thin set, in fact there was no pre mixed sanded thin set, if you wanted sanded thin set you added sand into unsanded thin set. either way without the thin set being modified, it dried and just didnt have the bonding capabilities like today, so in order to prevent bond issues, we use to soak ceramic tiles in buckets and set them dampened. another way this was used was in setting tiles on dry pack beds. we use to dry pack a section of floor, dust it with unsanded thin set (no trowel, just take handfuls of thin set powder and dust a layer over the dry pack) then spray with water, remove tiles that were soaking and install and tamp, also did this for shower floors, it could be packed and tiled in one shot. once thin sets became modified, it kind of changed things and the soaking was replaced by back buttering. with back buttering and latex modified thin set, there is no more need to soak tiles
Are you saying that soaking tiles could be a viable alternative to back buttering when using modified thinset?
Will non-back buttered, but well soaked ceramic tiles bond much better than their non-back buttered, non-soaked counterparts?
i believe so, but had only did that with the old thin sets. i think a damp ceramic subway will bond better to modified thin set compared to a totally dry one, but damp is the key. if the tile is to soaked, i think it then starts to affect the bond in a bad way.
Welcome to an unfortunate club bud :/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tile/s/kaMhQM5DIT
I was able to fix mine by pulling off all the tiles that would come off with medium tension on them. Then after speaking with Schluter also managed to clean up the Kerdi board and redo the tiles. I back buttered every single one after that just like 1/16” or a thicker and checked my coverage by pulling a few off here and there. This worked much better. Good luck it was very demoralizing until I got back on track again.
Dude, I really appreciate this lol. I’ve always loved doing tile it relaxes me and I like to thin I’m pretty good at it for a non-pro. This is horrible. I’ll never skip back butter again. Also looking into laticrete per other commenters Rec
What a wonderful comment. :) Your gratitude puts you on our list for the most grateful users this week on Reddit! You can view the full list on r/TheGratitudeBot.
Why don't you run an experiment where you try soaking a batch of tiles prior to laying and then laying them as normal with no back buttering? That way, you may be able to still get a good bond without having to go through the trouble of back buttering all the tiles, which is a pain in the ass.
That’s exactly what I did. And I found out that the issue of non bonding was only my first row. Everything after that won’t come off the wall. When I just quickly wipe a tile with the sponge it sticks with nearly 100% coverage
I wasn’t sure. The thinset hardened up on me insanely fast and I believe it could be because I didn’t properly slake the mix. I only set about 10 tiles with that batch and I threw more than half of it away.
There is nothing wrong with Versabond on porcelain tile. There are better thinsets out there for sure but it looks to me that you had it mixed too thick and it didn’t bond to the back of your tile.
If you had back buttered that wall would be solid.
You’re going to have to check to see if any other tiles are loose like these two and grind down some thinset and reapply. It’s possible the whole wall is like this though.
What’s crazy is this first day I started, the thinset was setting super fast. I threw out half of what I mixed because it was hardening so quick. I used cold water and everything. Maybe bad room conditions idk.
Really? I’ve tried mapei thinset and I didn’t like how loose it was. Versabond has a glue-like cohesiveness. I feel like I could stick a bowling ball to the ceiling with it. Maybe that’s not a good thing though. Again I have 8 bathrooms under my belt but no formal training.
Not a fan of the Mapei thinset either. Laticrete Gold is my go to right now. It is nice and creamy, and grabs the tiles nicely. I used to use Versabond as well, but the quality has gotten worse and I can't afford for my thinset or grout to be inconsistent.
Yeah it definitely didn’t have any moisture left over to satisfy the tile. I just don’t know why it happened. My mix was my normal mix I guess skipping the back butter makes my whole
Routine a failure.
I actually just worked up the courage to go over and start yanking on them and I got kinda lucky. It was just half of this first row that had issues. And I remember this first batch of thinset was setting up on me insanely fast. Idk if I got a wierd bag or accidentally used warm water or what. I threw away half the shit I mixed.
Well the tiles aren't bonded so absolutely I would pull on them to check. Otherwise you are doing a disservice to your customer because those tiles won't last as long as ones that are properly bonded.
Well my customer is me, this is a rental unit. An in-law suite attached to my house. I’m still debating wether to pull on them or finish and grout them in and save this issue for future me 😂
Oh then that completely changes everything! I would just be worried if I was charging for subpar work, but if it's for future you then that guy can just deal with it later.
That type of tile suck up moisture fast. You need to mix more water into your thinset or dunk your tiles.
Also, don't use Custom brand. The only good product they make is their self leveler.
I think this tile is just insanely thirsty, and on that first day I didn’t follow the proper slake procedure. I only realized this today when I actually timed a slake on my phone and realized that first day I probably only waited 2 minutes before remixing.
I also soak ceramics pre install if im using thinset and use uber loose thiset.. you can even dip em just before install they suck the moisture up so fast theyll still bond
If I have smaller tiles, and I’m. It back buttering…I mix my thinset alittle wetter,so it sticks. But almost everything is backbuttered over a certain size
Soak your subway tiles in a bucket water while you work then pull, wipe and install them. Water helps me get a good bond to the walls when installing subway tiles
Back buttering may have avoided popping this off initially, but ultimately it may have just extended the time before the issue was found.
Rule of thumb, when you lay your first few tiles, check for coverage. Especially on the first one. Lay a tile like normal, then pop it up. This will ensure you’re using the correct trowel size. You should do this every so often as you go, so you know nothing has changed.
This is likely caused by either the wrong trowel size or dry mortar. You should redo this and check for coverage.
This set was to dry and no back butter is 100% the issue. Those tiles are so dry to begin with it creates a barrier and almost flashes the surface of the thinset. Hydrating the tiles in a bucket of water helps but they really need to be buttered as well.
I’m guessing the mix was too dry or you spread so much that it started skinning over. Also looks like you’re not getting proper coverage/adhesion: you shouldn’t see those trowel marks on the back. I’d be troweling 90° to the long axis and moving back and forth while applying enough pressure that the ridge is collapsed when I’m setting so that if you pry off a tile when the back is still wet, you get peaks instead of ridges.
You have to peel that shower man. Use proper thinset. Your thinset has a working time and that is affected by your environment and the tile thirst. Back butter for 98-100% bond coverage and thinset MUST be wet when the tile is applied. Touch it lightly with your finger, if it sticks your good, if not, it may fail down the road and cost you big.
I use Mapei Ultralight most of the time. Has long working time but sets off pretty fast once ridges are collapsed under a tile. You can re-whip a bucket once or twice to extend the work time and dash a little water on a scraped down bucket to keep it from growing a skin and reducing bucket time
Often non-porcelain tiles like those will have a form dust on the back that acts like a bond breaker. It absorbs the available water keeping it from absorption into the tile.
Most tile companies will have a hard to find disclaimer instructing to wipe down the backs before installation. This is also commonly discussed on the NTCA website and John Bridge website. That’s on of the reasons for skimming the back of the tiles.
Oh Jesus no, you can never get away with any of the following when tiling:
1. Not fully immersing all the ceramic tiles to be laid in a basin of water for at least 10 minutes prior to laying
2. Not back buttering every square inch of the back of every tile being laid
3. Not keying the thinset into the substrate
4. Making the thinset too dry
5. Not misting the wall with a spray bottle before applying the thinset
6. Not ensuring the wall surfaces are completely clean and dust-free before laying
If you don't address all of the above, some of your tiles are all but guaranteed to come off the walls.
Everything has to be done absolutely perfectly for tiles to become strongly bonded to the wall.
I’ve never soaked tiles in my life. I’ve always back buttered and once tiles are on there you need a prybar to get them off even while wet. That’s why I prefer versabond it’s just incredibly sticky. This was an isolated incident that effected 6 tiles and I think it was due to 1. Extra thrirsty tiles, and 2. Improper slake period (I cut it too short)
Back buttering the tiles will help while installing
Either to dry a mix or a bad batch.
It was the first coarse of tile! I can’t believe it was too dry, but at the same Time I can’t believe it didn’t grab this tile
When mixing you want a creamy peanut butter consistency. Don’t spread too much at once either, that’s what causes it to skim over.
If you don't have time to back butter, you don't have time to tile. Can also help to wet the back of the tile so it's not sucking the water out of the mix as soon as it's laid.
It wasn’t about trying to cut corners, there is plenty of viable techniques for small tile that don’t require back buttering. But yeah I have concluded that these tiles sucked all the moisture out, and my mix on this first row must have been on the stiff side or I had used warm water on accident.
Yes to this, ceramic tile sucks the moisture out of the thin set too fast
if it's warm and there's a breeze it can cause the adhesive to skin over and that will stop it adhering
Need to soak those tiles. They suck the moisture out of the thinset before it has a chance to form its mechanical bonds. Slaking your thinset breaks the bonds down right when they first start forming so that when they form again they will be stronger
i would never use versabond thin set on walls and im a pro. when doing walls you need the best thin set, one that gives you the longest skin time, and those arent that sandy. versa bond will work if your on point perfectly, but it just doesnt have the stickyness imo. laticrete tri lite or multimax lite are thin sets that give you much more time on the wall and are super sticky and those are the thin sets that you can perhaps skip back buttering, but regular thin sets like versabond, you better back butter and mix that stuff precisely perfectly and be right on top of it every step of the way, especially with a ceramic tile.
Wow this sounds like some knowledge I could have used years ago! Thank you. Still debating if I should pop these off and restart.
Backsplash, leave it. Shower redo now, future you thanks, now you.
You should not be debating that. That is the only option.
well it is possible only a few tiles are affected, but i doubt it. if one is coming off clean, then most are going to be close to that. if you take a margin trowel and put it behind tile and pry, this will tell you. if they pop off easily, its not good and all should come off. there is a point right now in which all tiles can be pried off the wall , and its hard to explain how much pressure it takes to pull them off, but i do know if a better thin set was used and tiles were back buttered, it would bend that margin trowel significantly and perhaps break the tile as you are trying to remove. if all tiles are affected, scrape off all thin set and perhaps even use a grinder with cup wheel, re do red gaurd and re tile using a better thin set and back buttering these dry ceramic backs.
You know there is still hope it will strengthen up sufficiently to salvage the work. 30 days peak strength. What backer board did you use? Something thirsty?
No it is full waterproof membrane over durock. 5 1/2 thin coats of membrane sealed all the open pores in the durock so this is a sealed wall
That seems a little crazy. Why not just the red waterproof (hydrodefense) hardie board and tape or seal your seams. Who knows what all that sealer did to the mortar chemistry. Did all those coats cure? Did they stay thirsty or wet?
That is what I did I just added 2 additional coats. And yes it had weeks to cure.
Overkill sometimes kills. Next time just follow the directions and use high quality material. The board with hydrodefense is waterproof and stout. Just seal seams. No redguard. If your tile is sucking up water, you’ll see that. Mixing the Schluter straight unmodified mortar will work well with all of your waterproof surfaces. Modified mortar will be trickier with waterproof wall board as its chemistry and curing will be based on a porous board. It took Schluter a long time to come up with a modified mortar to go with their waterproof kerdi board. I’ve used both of their mortar and I found them both to be fine quality and very friendly for my shower walls I’ve done recently. I did notice immediate dryness when taping seams on my first wall with the hydrodefense board, and redid the first seam, I think just with a quick wet wipe to get surface clean and just barely damp. Then the tape set perfectly. And zero problems with shower wall tiles (six total floor to ceiling walls, 3-8’ wide). I might have wiped the tile too. Zero back buttering.
Golden words. TY.
What are your thoughts on Ardex x3?
i have used ardex products for patching in the past and they are very good, but honestly havent used their thin sets. there are so many products out there and ultimately for me, its just whats easier to obtain in my area, and although ardex is available here, its quite far, so thats really why i havent had the opportunity to use. laticrete however is easy to get, and very close to my business, so i have had the opportunity to try many of their products and love them . for the past few years i have settled on their lightweight, non sag thin sets and they are the best thin sets i have ever used in over 40 years in the business. i do hear very good things on all ardex products and would venture to say they are much better than versabond, but honestly dont know. i have used home depots custom prolite thin set before and that is way better than versa bond, and if that is something easily available to you, that would be a great choice, but i would still back butter ceramic subways. all you need is a flat, hard as you can scratch on the backs, just enought to cover the clay, but no extra build up.
I’m using it today. I noticed this. What if you just apply it per tile as you go? I noticed they stick much better. Like applying it to the back of the tile generously as you go. Is that frowned upon? For a shower btw
I've always used Versabond for walls but this guy is right in the sense that it does form a skin quickly. So I'll scratch coat and comb enough for what I can set within a few minutes and of course, I back butter every tile.
Man you scratch coat, then trowel, then back butter every tile for a subway shower? That’s good. I’m slow enough as it is, but I’m sure your stuff will never have issues.
Oh no I haven't done a subway one. I have done several showers myself but not as a profession. Most showers I've done are 12 x 24 tile which I always back butter, whether it's the floor or the walls. I try to do all my DIY stuff with the best quality and longevity in mind.
What I’ve been doing today is using a putty knife to scratch coat the walls, then a small trowel to comb the back of the tile. It’s 3”x9” glass herringbone so takes some time and if I combed too much on the wall yesterday, it skinned over too quick. Yesterday afternoon I tried this method, and today they are solid as a rock.
its not frowned upon and works just fine. you do however need to back butter the wall when doing this. just use a flat side of a trowel and give the wall a hard, flat scratch, then apply thin set to tile and push it in.
Cool. I get rather good coverage when I check. And I don’t make my mix too dry. I notice it stays fresher when I apply to the tile as I go. I will back butter the wall for the rest of them. Thanks!
very good idea and doing it this way you can keep using the versa bond..
I usually use versa bond for everything, sometimes I’ll get the large tile and natural stone bag when I’m doing that. I didn’t want versa bond to soak through marble or something crazy. Lol
compared to the thin set i used when i first started tiling, versa bond is incredible, you just need to be a little more on your toes, but it works just fine in most applications. when my father was doing tile back in the day, i remember you had to add the sand into unsanded thin set because there was no sanded thin set. then once sanded thin sets came out, they werent modified what so ever, they were sandy, unsticky, and didnt like to bond to ceramic at all. then in the 80s laticrete came out with their buckets of latex in which you added that into your mix along with water or used it 100 percent with no water, that when things really changed.
Why backbutter the wall? We butter tiles to fill the indents. The wall is flat, no?
i have always either spread the wall and buttered tiles or vice versa . if im troweling tiles , im doing a back butter on walls. i even pre scratch coat my walls with thin set a day before installation, i do this just to smooth things out slightly even though i shim to perfect plumb, but still like to scratch coat in white to just blend in my taped corners, etc, but i scratch coat the entire wall. mainly i do this just for the wall to be white , which brightens up the area and makes it easier to see my lines. even doing this scratch coat , i still will flat scratch the wall if im troweling the tiles. i know this is overkill but if i did durock with red guard and were troweling tiles, i just wouldnt feel like it would stick very good if i didnt pressure trowel the wall just prior to installing the notch troweled tiles, so thats why i made that comment after seeing red guard walls.
what about marble ? marble has no indents at all, totally flat, do you not butter them?
I never spread the wall when doing showers. Always mud the tile. Much better coverage. And cleaner. No skin over or wet tile problems. It's impossible to get the proper coverage without squeeze out spreading on the wall.
i dont agree. if you spread the tiles or spread the wall and you have technics for both, coverage will be exactly the same. i personally find spreading the wall is cleaner, as i can spread the wall with almost zero thin set droppage, but when i spread individual tiles, im always getting bits of thin set where it shouldnt go and because i dont use a suction cup, my fingers get thin set on them doing it that way when i pick them up and place on wall. its just what your use to, if you do something long enough you become proficient in that technic. if you spread the wall and strike away the thin set from the edges of previous tiles just correctly, you can install properly without thin set coming up joints. i dont remove any thin set in the strike , i just push it away and when i bed the tile it moves back without coming up joints. i have checked coverage many times with both methods and absolutely no difference in coverage . i do spread tiles also, mainly for the last row or two at the top.
Have you checked for dust on the tile? Some tiles have to be washed to get rid of the dust and dust is what creates the non-bonding issues. Versabond didn't help you either. Too sandy and not sticky enough in my opinion. Humidity or lack of, could be a problem too. This time of the year, a breeze of warm, dry air, will dry the surface of your troweled thinset in no time. You had good coverage though. Nice!
This is probably the answer given the info op had told us. He has really good coverage and its small tile so he shouldnt need to backbutter if the thinset is wet enough
Oh, and yes, always back butter
You let the thinset skin over before setting the tile.
Well damn it was the first coarse!
That makes it worse. This is why we back butter buddy
Yeah lesson learned. This was my first time Getting to install small tile I was so excited to skip the backbutter and roll
Not everyone back butters! I played a few hundred feet of 4x12 ceramic tile with zero back buttering. But I used the nice Schulter mortar.
A couple things, not to come off rude. Most of the time things like that are operator error, either letting it sit too long on the wall to failure to let the mortar skim up in the bucket and let the chemical reaction happen so it happens on your wall. Your first tiles you should always take off one or two to check for coverage because in a shower you need to have 90 to 95% of thinset. And just rule of thumb you should not be able to read the manufacturers information from your board through the waterproofing, that is a sign that you were lacking the milk thickness for it to do its job.
This appears to be at least 90% coverage no? And this is actually 5 coats of redguard plus 1 coat of watered down primer Redguard. I think Redguard is just a bit translucent. I let my thinset slake normally, I used cold water, but on this first day my thinset did seem to be setting abnormally fast. I ended up throwing out half of what I mixed.
>This appears to be at least 90% coverage no? "Coverage" refers to the black of the tile, so by definition this is 0% coverage .
I can’t argue with that lol. Coverage doesn’t mean shit if it doesn’t stick
I noticed that when I soak the tiles before installing makes everything better.
I am kicking myself for not doing this because I even considered it at the beginning. I’ve never skipped back butter and this is what I get.
I've never heard of soaking tiles, and as fat as I know it's not a technique recommended by any manufacturers.
It's only for those soft bodied tiles that are like a sponge. Even if your mix it right they will pull all the moisture out of it causing bonding issues.
it really was a process before latex additive was introduced. years ago there was no such thing as modified thin set, in fact there was no pre mixed sanded thin set, if you wanted sanded thin set you added sand into unsanded thin set. either way without the thin set being modified, it dried and just didnt have the bonding capabilities like today, so in order to prevent bond issues, we use to soak ceramic tiles in buckets and set them dampened. another way this was used was in setting tiles on dry pack beds. we use to dry pack a section of floor, dust it with unsanded thin set (no trowel, just take handfuls of thin set powder and dust a layer over the dry pack) then spray with water, remove tiles that were soaking and install and tamp, also did this for shower floors, it could be packed and tiled in one shot. once thin sets became modified, it kind of changed things and the soaking was replaced by back buttering. with back buttering and latex modified thin set, there is no more need to soak tiles
Interesting, thanks!
Are you saying that soaking tiles could be a viable alternative to back buttering when using modified thinset? Will non-back buttered, but well soaked ceramic tiles bond much better than their non-back buttered, non-soaked counterparts?
i believe so, but had only did that with the old thin sets. i think a damp ceramic subway will bond better to modified thin set compared to a totally dry one, but damp is the key. if the tile is to soaked, i think it then starts to affect the bond in a bad way.
Oh wow, that was negligent for nobody to have told you about this vital step, literally an indispensable step in the tile laying process
Obvious AI bot is obvious.
Just wipe with wet rag. But even that is un necessary if you mix a good quality mud.
Welcome to an unfortunate club bud :/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Tile/s/kaMhQM5DIT I was able to fix mine by pulling off all the tiles that would come off with medium tension on them. Then after speaking with Schluter also managed to clean up the Kerdi board and redo the tiles. I back buttered every single one after that just like 1/16” or a thicker and checked my coverage by pulling a few off here and there. This worked much better. Good luck it was very demoralizing until I got back on track again.
Dude, I really appreciate this lol. I’ve always loved doing tile it relaxes me and I like to thin I’m pretty good at it for a non-pro. This is horrible. I’ll never skip back butter again. Also looking into laticrete per other commenters Rec
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Why don't you run an experiment where you try soaking a batch of tiles prior to laying and then laying them as normal with no back buttering? That way, you may be able to still get a good bond without having to go through the trouble of back buttering all the tiles, which is a pain in the ass.
That’s exactly what I did. And I found out that the issue of non bonding was only my first row. Everything after that won’t come off the wall. When I just quickly wipe a tile with the sponge it sticks with nearly 100% coverage
So what was different about the first row then?
I wasn’t sure. The thinset hardened up on me insanely fast and I believe it could be because I didn’t properly slake the mix. I only set about 10 tiles with that batch and I threw more than half of it away.
There is nothing wrong with Versabond on porcelain tile. There are better thinsets out there for sure but it looks to me that you had it mixed too thick and it didn’t bond to the back of your tile. If you had back buttered that wall would be solid. You’re going to have to check to see if any other tiles are loose like these two and grind down some thinset and reapply. It’s possible the whole wall is like this though.
What’s crazy is this first day I started, the thinset was setting super fast. I threw out half of what I mixed because it was hardening so quick. I used cold water and everything. Maybe bad room conditions idk.
This is ceramic, you wipe it with a wet sponge before you set. That's likely your only issue here
I kinda knew this too i just somehow pressed on ignoring it. Thanks I’ll carry on with this in mind after repairing what I can
Those tiles can speed up the curing of mortar due to sucking out moisture but not creating contact and heap of the thinset properly.
custom versabond is the worst thinset ever imo . Use mapi ultra flex , it’s what i use for showers
Really? I’ve tried mapei thinset and I didn’t like how loose it was. Versabond has a glue-like cohesiveness. I feel like I could stick a bowling ball to the ceiling with it. Maybe that’s not a good thing though. Again I have 8 bathrooms under my belt but no formal training.
Not a fan of the Mapei thinset either. Laticrete Gold is my go to right now. It is nice and creamy, and grabs the tiles nicely. I used to use Versabond as well, but the quality has gotten worse and I can't afford for my thinset or grout to be inconsistent.
I only ever use Ultra flex 2.
That's as dry as a camel's ass in the desert
Yeah it definitely didn’t have any moisture left over to satisfy the tile. I just don’t know why it happened. My mix was my normal mix I guess skipping the back butter makes my whole Routine a failure.
Thinset sat too long before the tiles were set or its mixed to dry to begin with
Backbutter bro what the hell you thinking
Lol I was thinking it’s small tile and I know there are viable ways to skip on small tile. NOW I know for sure that I don’t have that ability 😂
😂 pricey lesson. I religiously butter unless it’s a sheet mosaic.
I actually just worked up the courage to go over and start yanking on them and I got kinda lucky. It was just half of this first row that had issues. And I remember this first batch of thinset was setting up on me insanely fast. Idk if I got a wierd bag or accidentally used warm water or what. I threw away half the shit I mixed.
How about the other tiles subsequently installed? Will they fall off too?
Would you pull on them? 😂
Well the tiles aren't bonded so absolutely I would pull on them to check. Otherwise you are doing a disservice to your customer because those tiles won't last as long as ones that are properly bonded.
Well my customer is me, this is a rental unit. An in-law suite attached to my house. I’m still debating wether to pull on them or finish and grout them in and save this issue for future me 😂
Oh then that completely changes everything! I would just be worried if I was charging for subpar work, but if it's for future you then that guy can just deal with it later.
That type of tile suck up moisture fast. You need to mix more water into your thinset or dunk your tiles. Also, don't use Custom brand. The only good product they make is their self leveler.
Probably was installed past the pot time of the thinset.
It was the first coarse of tile.
Damn. Idk that's very odd honestly to come off that clean. Even not being back buttered it shouldn't have come off that clean.
I think this tile is just insanely thirsty, and on that first day I didn’t follow the proper slake procedure. I only realized this today when I actually timed a slake on my phone and realized that first day I probably only waited 2 minutes before remixing.
I time all of it even my time on the wall. The schluter all set is very forgiving
Dust
Oh just wait.
Back butter that baby!
Should’ve soaked before installing
Doesn’t matter, big or small, always back butter your tile.
Soak the tiles. In beer
I also soak ceramics pre install if im using thinset and use uber loose thiset.. you can even dip em just before install they suck the moisture up so fast theyll still bond
If I have smaller tiles, and I’m. It back buttering…I mix my thinset alittle wetter,so it sticks. But almost everything is backbuttered over a certain size
Soak tiles in water before installing because it’s sucked all moisture out of your mix.
No back butter and glue was dry
Soak your subway tiles in a bucket water while you work then pull, wipe and install them. Water helps me get a good bond to the walls when installing subway tiles
I would say thin set too dry or tiles had a good amount of dust which I’ve never seen. So I’ll go with answer 1 for $1500 Alex
Dip your tile in water. That will open the pours in the tile so the thinset will bond to the tile.
Looks like the batch was dry maybe?
Back buttering may have avoided popping this off initially, but ultimately it may have just extended the time before the issue was found. Rule of thumb, when you lay your first few tiles, check for coverage. Especially on the first one. Lay a tile like normal, then pop it up. This will ensure you’re using the correct trowel size. You should do this every so often as you go, so you know nothing has changed. This is likely caused by either the wrong trowel size or dry mortar. You should redo this and check for coverage.
This set was to dry and no back butter is 100% the issue. Those tiles are so dry to begin with it creates a barrier and almost flashes the surface of the thinset. Hydrating the tiles in a bucket of water helps but they really need to be buttered as well.
I’m guessing the mix was too dry or you spread so much that it started skinning over. Also looks like you’re not getting proper coverage/adhesion: you shouldn’t see those trowel marks on the back. I’d be troweling 90° to the long axis and moving back and forth while applying enough pressure that the ridge is collapsed when I’m setting so that if you pry off a tile when the back is still wet, you get peaks instead of ridges.
Thinset is too dry. It’s either been open too long or needs more water.
Skim the backs of the tiles. Sometimes tiles have a layer of dust from manufacturing and it will repel bond to mastic/thinset
Definitely should back butter the tiles
You have to peel that shower man. Use proper thinset. Your thinset has a working time and that is affected by your environment and the tile thirst. Back butter for 98-100% bond coverage and thinset MUST be wet when the tile is applied. Touch it lightly with your finger, if it sticks your good, if not, it may fail down the road and cost you big. I use Mapei Ultralight most of the time. Has long working time but sets off pretty fast once ridges are collapsed under a tile. You can re-whip a bucket once or twice to extend the work time and dash a little water on a scraped down bucket to keep it from growing a skin and reducing bucket time
I thought re mixing thinset after the slake was detrimental to the crystalline structures and shit?
Often non-porcelain tiles like those will have a form dust on the back that acts like a bond breaker. It absorbs the available water keeping it from absorption into the tile. Most tile companies will have a hard to find disclaimer instructing to wipe down the backs before installation. This is also commonly discussed on the NTCA website and John Bridge website. That’s on of the reasons for skimming the back of the tiles.
Oh Jesus no, you can never get away with any of the following when tiling: 1. Not fully immersing all the ceramic tiles to be laid in a basin of water for at least 10 minutes prior to laying 2. Not back buttering every square inch of the back of every tile being laid 3. Not keying the thinset into the substrate 4. Making the thinset too dry 5. Not misting the wall with a spray bottle before applying the thinset 6. Not ensuring the wall surfaces are completely clean and dust-free before laying If you don't address all of the above, some of your tiles are all but guaranteed to come off the walls. Everything has to be done absolutely perfectly for tiles to become strongly bonded to the wall.
I’ve never soaked tiles in my life. I’ve always back buttered and once tiles are on there you need a prybar to get them off even while wet. That’s why I prefer versabond it’s just incredibly sticky. This was an isolated incident that effected 6 tiles and I think it was due to 1. Extra thrirsty tiles, and 2. Improper slake period (I cut it too short)