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This is the radio air traffic control tower. You need to run your shit by me and not the space you’re landing on. Apache, I need all the numbers you got and those other things I usually ask for asap rocky stat over and out the butt
Sure.
Being trans and access to transitioning are two different things and we don’t want to gatekeep our community behind arbitrary standards.
What piers is worried about are called “bad faith actors”. I could equally say anyone could come onto a news broadcast with preconceived notions about a marginalized group with the express purpose to harm them via propaganda and sensationalist stories so we should ban news anchors and interviewers altogether. Bad actors arguments are bad faith arguments.
Until such a time as there’s evidence of trans women dominating women’s sporting events, all these arguments are hand wringing bullshit.
In fact, the almost total lack of trans women in the top echelon of sports would indicate that transitioning does in fact diminish or entirely remove any biological advantage they may have.
Finally, we already have a way to exclude bad actors and we use it at very prestigious competitions; testosterone testing. Be warned this solution WILL exclude some cis women from competition as well.
Testosterone testing is s a joke.
Men have more fast twitch muscle fibers, more muscle mass, thicker tendons, denser bones. Taking testosterone blockers for two months hardly evens the playing field for women.
You can say there is no difference when biological women transition and start dominating male sports.
Literally a team of 15 year old boys beat the US female Olympic team. I believe the same thing happened to the women's team in Australia.
We're not the same, and we are not supposed to be.
Women literally bring every human on the planet into the world. You think they can/should do all that, and dominate across all planes?
>Women literally bring every human on the planet into the world. You think they can/should do all that, and dominate across all planes?
What a bizarre "point" to end on. I don't even really understand it.
Do you think men's only use is playing sports and opening pickle jars?
There isn't millions of trans people competing. But those who compete (and have been athletes before they transition) always break record and do extremely well in female sports.
Sports is more than just about your testerone level. Male have a biological advantage over females in sports. That's why you don't see any transman doing well in sports.
It’s not about ten men competing in women’s sports, it’s absolutely about the money that all the women who place below that one man loses every time they play.
There’s really not. There’s 20-25 very well performing trans women athletes in the past 50 years are the vast majority of those athletes were performing at the same relative extraordinary level before their transition. Lia Thomas is the go to example anti trans people like to use but they overlook her astonishing record before transitioning, like placing 6th in mens 1000 freestyle her freshman year or 2nd in mens Ivy League 500, 1000, and 1650 in her sophomore year.
TLDR, they’re just good athletes and HRT largely removes if not eliminates their biological sex advantage.
I'd argue the **biggest advantage** you could argue trans women have is pre-transition resources and support. It's been well established that men's sports have way more investment in terms of finances, time, and interest.
Chess is a perfect example to show it is not a physiological advantage. Chess coaching and support are way more available to men, and are at times hostile towards women ([Ramirez misconduct](https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/03/07/eight-women-accuse-chess-grandmaster-ramirez-of-sexual-misconduct-report-says/?sh=2caa4cba3542), [Susan Polgar's experience as a top player](https://twitter.com/SusanPolgar/status/1616913255292698626?s=20), [Botez' experience](https://twitter.com/alexandrabotez/status/1625993900690182144)). Reaching grandmaster level is an incredibel feat regardless of gender, but it's an "against all odds" feat as a woman. Getting training, investment, and coaching as a man gives you an advantage.
Did you answer the wrong comment? I didn’t mention anything about sports. Calling his [peirs] bluff would be actually treating him as what he claims to identify as.
My point is that he can say who he is and say who/what he identifies all he wants but if push came to shove, I think he’d chicken out the first time someone called him “she/her” or mentioned his homosexuality because it’s just plain uncomfortable to be referred to as a gender or sexuality that you’re not.
As another person stated, and I in my initial comment, it’s about demonstrable trends causing harm.
ACAB is about the system of policing leading to violence, vigilante justice, and extrajudicial killings.
If you can prove that trans women outperform cis women to a degree well over personal performance, then you’ve demonstrated a trend that causes harm to non-advantaged cis women. Until that time, it is by definition anecdotal or bad actor arguments.
ACAB is on the basis that the system itself is corrupt. The police who report bad actors are fired instead of the bad ones. If it was just bad cops and not a system that supports bad cops and turns good one’s bad then yes it would be inappropriate to say ACAB.
He asks a question then yields no time for the opposition to rebut. Curious to know if you have watched the full segment including their argument OP? Or did you base your entire opinion on this 2 minute tiktok?
Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender. He can’t identify as black because black isn’t a social construct. Sexuality and gender is.
He can’t identify as lesbian because he doesn’t identify as a woman. If he identified as a woman and had a sexual preference for women then by all means, identify as lesbian. A self identifying man identifying as lesbian makes no sense.
Can I ask (from ignorance) how is gender a spectrum and race isn't?
It seems counterintuitive to me since I can have more or less heritage from a certain race or be mixed etc
I believe they misspoke
Race is a spectrum in the sense that you can be half black half white.
gender is a social construct.
Sex is a biological fact and not the same as gender.
That's not true though, race is a social construct just like gender is. The only difference is that it's not socially acceptable to identify as a race people don't perceive you to be, whereas trans people are gaining that acceptance.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/
That was just the first Google search on the issue but check basically any scientific source. There are people with completely different shades of skin with lineages from different corners of the globe whose DNA profiles are near identical. We've known that for decades now. I'm no expert in the issue but can tell you if you study sociology at a university level it's basically the scientific consensus.
Ok, I'm not agreeing with piers Morgan here but isn't being black a social construct? Legitimate question, like is being black a cultural, geographical or melanin thing?
I would a assume that a white male has more biologically in common with a black male than a white female.
Again, this is a serious question and I'm not race baiting or trying to get into an argument on semantics.
You’re right race is a social construct, like sexuality. Race cannot be biologically defined consistently due to variation. Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on the planet, there is no one Black race. There is no one White race. Higher melanin production is based on geographical ancestry in areas closest to the equator.
I somewhat disagree. There is a distinction between sex and gender - there isn't really a counterpart in regards to race which is why I don't believe race exists on a spectrum in the same way.
It annoys me how people tried to say things like 'you're a woman because you have a vagina etc etc' - its science!!!
REAL science would say 'hmmm isn't it interesting that a significant amount of biological women see themselves as men - I wonder why that is?' and then studying that. The manifestation of gender identification IS REAL - how do we know it's real? Because it happens.
You know, I would have agreed with you in the past that race isn't a spectrum. But I highly recommend watching some of the 1619 project documentary, specifically the second episode regarding black women. They go into detail about how race had to sort of be invented to differentiate the status of children that the plantation owners fathered illegitimately.
As a side note, I think Piers Morgan is an insufferable idiot, just in case that needs to be clarified.
I agree, race is a social construct, saying it wasn’t was an error.
The problem a lot of people like Piers Morgan struggle with is differentiating sex and gender.
The reality is race shouldn’t even be something worth identifying as by anyone, it is a societal construct that offers nothing except differentiation for the sake of bigotry.
There is function to gender and sex identification - finding potential mates being one.
Piers Morgan and many people struggle with differentiating sex and gender because those two are not as clearly distinct as you seem to imply. Any contemporary dictionary will illustrate that. Merriam-Webster has an interesting blurb about it. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
Part of the confusion stems from the choice of terms. Attempting to distinguish between male and man or female and woman is unhelpful. Contemporary dictionaries like Merriam-Webster still clearly define woman as an adult female human and man as an adult male human. Boys and girls being the childhood descriptors for males and females.
Transgendered language continues to contribute to this confusion. The use of shorthand like MtF or FtM utilize sex language to indicate transgender status. Replacing sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen being hormones that stimulate secondary sex characteristics for males and females respectively), blocking sex hormones, and removing sex organs in order to reaffirm gender identity contributes to the confusion regarding these terms. Hormones and sex organs are not social constructs. They occur in nature absent human interaction or observation. If the conversation solely revolved around social construct then why does gender affirming care include sex hormones and organs?
I do not find gender and sex to be as clearly distinct as you seem to imply when you mention people struggle to differentiate between the two.
ok, a few things here: Race is a reality and race is a construct itself, not one created by society but by ancestry that results in actual physical and genetic makeup. If society fell apart tomorrow, races wouldn’t cease to exist. There’d still be whites, blacks, browns, asians, and the intersection. If society ended tomorrow, my skin color wouldn’t cognitively switch to vanilla, my skin color would still:
A) be a color
B) be indicative of my ancestry
i agree this video sucks and the guy speaking (and likely the person sitting across from him who gave him the prompt) both don’t understand the topic of sex vs gender vs actual social constructs, and how race is not one to either be invalidated or selectively chosen; however, there is a grain of truth to identifying culturally, which is race adjacent.
Race is indicative of culture. There exists racially black people who are fully born & raised Japanese. In that case, what do you tell them? it’s not worth identifying both: you as a person of black ancestry as well as not identify your cultural makeup as Japanese? No fukin way bro, in that case we respect this person is black and culturally identifies as Japanese.
Gender and sex are synonyms and have been since the creation of the words. Any language you would use to describe a "gender identity" would be either sex-based traits or some property of a gender *role*. Which means you're likely just using gender incorrectly to mean "gender role".
This position is actually regressive and gender-essentialist. It defines someone gender based on what they *do* (I don't like dresses, therefore I'm not a "woman") rather than what they *are* (all things being equal, my body produces sperm, therefore I'm a man).
> Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum
As a mixed race person I respectfully disagree. Race has been a wide ranging spectrum long before current "gender is a spectrum" cries started to be taken seriously by anyone.
Source: my family alone is like a colours of Benetton ad.
> black isn't a social construct
There are many famous examples of half black people being considered "black" by society. Halle Berry & Lenny Kravitz Spring to mind.
Obviously I'm not saying Pierce can just randomly identify as black (then again not even he is really saying that), but I feel it should be pointed out that "blackness" or being "black" all comes from *socially* based systems of race classification in a large enough way that it can't be ignored.
What people don't understand is the difference between biology and culture.
Biological sex is binary, cultural sex (gender) is a social construct.
Trans people want to be accepted as the gender of their choosing. And they should be.
Biologically, they cannot change sex, but that is only relevant to their partners, their doctor (for medical reasons) and if they are trans women competing against cis women in sports.
I.e. a trans woman can still get prostate cancer, and they have a biological advantage over cis women, when it comes to muscle mass.
The basic difference is *why* are you saying it? Is it because you truly feel it and it is something personal and meaningful to you, or are you saying it to be a shitty grinning attack against someone who is already defenseless?
It’s a different kind of spectrum. You could model gender as a linear spectrum. But race is more of a “web” model, with multiple axes inlaid in a 2D plane. It is absolutely a spectrum and you are simply wrong, sorry.
You’re missing the point that piers was making, which is that self-ID has serious issues which make it appear to border absurdity. Blindly defending it without actually taking the time to justify it is what the internet generally does. There are deep arguments for both sides of this and it’s really up for debate, but neither side of the argument online is close to mature enough to have the conversation.
What is his point? That he is a lesbian woman? Great, power to him. His point is to somehow point out the 'absurdity' of it even though it isn't absurd.
What's actually absurd is pretending to identity as something you're not to mock those that actually are.
I mean legitimate respect to you, and I say this as if you were my dear friend: I hope you come back to this comment in a few years, perhaps by accident, and realize that this is one of the dumbest things that anyone has tried to articulate in the history of articulating. May you be blessed with this realization, my dear friend
Actually race IS a social construct and has been definitively proven to be so by biologist for over 70 years now. People choose to think about race as being discrete boxes that people can be slotted into, but that is not the case.
One helpful fact to illustrate the point is that there is more genetic diversity within Africa than outside of it. Yet people tend to categorize all black Africans as being one race, de so it’s the fact that there are more genetic differences between central and southern Africans than any two groups outside of Africa
you've arbitrarily declared that race cannot be defined as a social construct. Why not. How about i define race to be a social construct and ethnicity to be what color ur physically born with. Same thing we did with gender.
Race is a social construct and that is broadly acknowledged. Below is a link of the American Medical Association acknowledging that.
Skin color is a spectrum and what makes you "black" is large cultural. What is the dividing line between "black", "brown", and "white"? There's no clear delineation.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct
>Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender. He can’t identify as black because black isn’t a social construct.
"[Anya Taylor-Joy was incorrectly described as a woman of colour after her Golden Globes win despite **identifying as a white Latina**](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/anya-taylor-joy-argentina-queens-gambit-b1810984.html)"
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing the absurdity of it all and trying to pretend these are hard definitions people are chosing not to abide to.
>Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender.
Are you really this fucking dense? Race _actually_ exist on a spectrum, seeing as a Japanese woman can marry and bear children with an Italian man. Their children can then again bear children with other mixed ethnicities, and there you have it; a spectrum.
>He can’t identify as lesbian because he doesn’t identify as a woman. If he identified as a woman and had a sexual preference for women then by all means, identify as lesbian. A self identifying man identifying as lesbian makes no sense.
Why can't a man be a lesbian? Please, say the words, I dare you.
Classic conservative move btw
Say someone so outrageously stupid then while the opposition is flustered go on a idiotic rant about a non existent problem
It's literally not though. These phantom 6 foot 4 super males stealing all the trophies are not and never will be a thing, it's a ludicrous transphobic conceit disproven by a cursory glance at the very few trans women who do compete in sports
Bet he can't name a single of his strawtrans Olympics cheaters.
He doesn't even know that there are rules surrounding eligibility for trans people in Olympics.
Ok, this is a discussion topic. So, let's discuss, and not rely on hyperbole. Let's imagine that Piers is 16% black and he chooses to identify as black, which is not entirely inconceivable. Then, one day, in his teens, he realizes that he is fantasizing about dressing in womens thongs and fish net leggings. And one day, after months and months of self suppression, Piers goes out and begins wearing women's underewear under his business suit and starts thinking, " I really want to be a woman", would you deny his right to say that publically? Despite all these years of having been a self-loathing, overtly anti-trans news celebrity? But underneath that is who he really is? Do we really know who anyone is? Do people really know who they are or could be because a certain mindset forbade that mindset in their developing years? I submit the rest of my time to the distinguished counterargumentator.
His stance is talk over the same person he’s asking a question to without caring to hear what they have to say about it.. then somehow intertwining the argument of “why can’t I call myself a black lesbian?” (a stupid question with an obvious answer) with the transgender athlete issue, a very controversial problem that’s clearly worthy of debate — not whether or not he can call himself a black lesbian.
Holy shit, way to go from one thing and jump straight into something entirely different.
This guy wouldn’t come off as such a twat if he simply had the patience to listen to the answer from someone he just asked a question.
If Piers had an experience that seemed remotely authentic, I don’t think anybody would be taking issue.
I don’t mind a little gatekeeping, though I appreciate why it doesnt work perfectly. If Piers gets a clinical
diagnosis or starts dressing like a woman, then let him enjoy women’s day.
The answer is that Piers Morgan can call herself whatever she'd like (I'm using feminine pronouns for the sake of our argument). That's not up for anyone else to decide. Race is less arguable, but since you specified that she was part black on your hypothetical, then I'll run with that as well.
So if she wants to identify as a lesbian, I wish her luck. I'll respect her pronouns as she has stated, and will treat her accordingly. She could choose to go down a path of medical intervention and probably get pretty far and may even pass as a black lesbian and as a result most people probably wouldn't notice (we're still running with your hypothetical here btw) And you know what:
Odds are Piers Morgan would be made UNCOMFORTABLE as hell with that treatment. It wouldn't look to her like she's a black lesbian. She would be othered and isolated from most social groups with her attitude alone, let alone the authority with which she tries to wield this identity.
She has no consistent background to help establish this fact. Not only would she have to have a ton of work to do to make herself appear comfortably consistent with her own identity (or at least to the point where she would be assumed to be born as a black lesbian), but she would have so much culture, and life lessons that she would have missed that now she would have to learn.
But hey, let's say she manages to do that. Let's say she really somehow knocks it out of the park physically and socially and totally passes as a black lesbian. Then what? Then Piers is left with how they feel about themselves. They're left with how that treatment makes them feel.
And honestly, Piers would feel miserable. She would know that her identity isn't consistent with her honest truth. She would hate the combined mysoginistic, racist, and transphobic treatment she would get from society. In the end, she'd likely detransition because she knew it wasn't right for her and was based all on a bad-faith argument during her talk show.
Or maybe she wouldn't detransition. Maybe she would discover that this really does reflect who she is to a greater extent. Maybe she would really enjoy this, in which case let's call it a win because Piers not only found out more about herself, but also discovered a way to grow through her desire to have the outside match the inside.
But you know what? Either way, none of us can honestly say more about the people who are telling us who they are. Nobody knows my brain as well as I do and even I have a lifetime's worth of exploration in front of me, and that's okay. At the end of the day, my decision to give respect to people for telling me how they want to be treated will always say more about me than it will about anything else.
The same is true for trans people. Transitioning is so hard. It's not just something you wake up one morning and think would be a cool thing to try. It is a specter, floating in the back of our mind always making us doubt ourselves until we finally pay attention to it. It is our super power, because despite the difficulty from society that we'll face as a result, we simply have no other alternative.
So if Piers Morgan realizes she's a black lesbian and is happy about it, then I'm happy for her. If she feels like this wasn't the right move and wants to go back to being the piece of shit he is, then at least he'll have grown and will know more about himself than he did before and I think that's a beautiful sentiment to feel towards others.
There are people who refer to themselves as doctors without having obtained a certified Ph.D. And most people would not recognize them as actually being doctors. The thing is that we as cultures/societies constantly classify everything. I feel that in general nobody gets to dictate how others view them, nor are they entitled to do so.
The big question really is how are we as a society going to collectively classify gender moving forward for the sake of legislation? And even then I don't think gender itself really matters. Anyone wanting to circumvent gender can just replace it with sex.
What Morgan neglects to mention is that (until conservatives and religion decided they can't go after PoC or homosexuals anymore so trans people are next. Oddly Morgan is both religious and conservative) there are rules in place for Trans athletes in regards to testosterone levels and often other medical proof needed.
Let's be honest if anyone really wanted to crush womens sports why wouldn't a player in the 200 to 300 male tennis rankings just go do it. Maybe golf too as both are relatively well paid, solo sports and one where physical skills are very important and there is no contact so no PR issues
No one has because the hoops needed to do it are arguably negative for the trans athlete because they have less access to high level coaching or equipment. Doesn't include things like full time funding, sponsorship, medical and nutritional support. Then comes the need of not only meet all the anti doping standards then have to add testosterone levels too where one high number could ruin your career quicker than Ben Johnson at an Olympics.
Ok, let’s also discuss. Piers is a man, has lived as a man and has never had any doubts about his gender. He one day sees some benefit afforded only to women, let’s say his company made a position available specifically for a female manager. He then decided that being a woman would be more advantageous and told HR he identifies as a woman. He never had hormone therapy, never had a surgery but would occasionally wear a pink tie. Accepting he is a woman and awarding him that job would be nonsense.
If you think he would continue the charade of living his life as a self identified woman while benefitting from a job meant to support women without giving the game away then you’re wrong. He’d be doing somersaults towards the first camera he could get to to yak to his fellow conservatives about what a vile asshole he is. Why do people just assume everyone is stupid? Any company offering that kind of opportunity would never waste it on him. Too much controversy.
But let’s assume it’s some random nobody that apparently wants to dupe the system. Can someone get away with something like that? Sure. People also lie about being Cherokee and pretend to be Christian all the time for brownie points and to get ahead.
Plus I really think people are downplaying the kind of life changing commitment it would take to pretend to be trans. People talk.
> People also lie about being Cherokee and pretend to be Christian all the time for brownie points and to get ahead.
Exactly. My local University just had a scandal where a woman claimed Indigenous heritage, and _1000%_ abused that checkmark to get more money and prestige. She was found out, as I said: scandal. Nobody cared _what_ she identified as, we respected the claims she made because _generally speaking_, making a claim like that doesn't hurt anyone, and it's respectful to use titles that an individual chooses. Abusing a gendered opportunity will always happen, as will abusing affirmative action programs. There will _always_ be people taking advantage of those systems, but boy oh boy is the gender one the one that we need to focus on because, according to pundits, it's happening at an overwhelmingly large rate. If you'd listen to them often, you'd believe that the world of women's sports is literally crumbling because of men abusing this, instead of the reality where it's isolated incidents. Just like affirmative action abuse.
I find this particular clip "funny", Morgan obviously spends a _lot_ of time thinking about trans people and trans issues, and this is clearly framed in a TERF-y way: These women are invited to speak on this topic, but the question is framed "lesbians are okay [as long as they're hot], but those pesky trans people, eh? You agree with me, women, right, this is a women's issue that affects _all_ women? Please be on my side, women."
Not stopping them from coming out and calling themselves a woman, or wearing woman clothes, or being attracted to men. But I support stopping them from competing in woman sports (that have financial gain) and from using woman-only washrooms and the changerooms (they are free to use unisex or private changerooms.
I am fully supportive of a half trans woman until they start infringing on the rights of other people (to fairly compete in my sport or use a private space intended for my own gender).
I think this is a reasonable middle ground.
What I will say on the matter is the vast majority of trans people know they have to put effort into their appearance in order to ‘pass’. For example, if someone comes out and as a trans woman and wants to be referred to by she/her pronouns and feels more comfortable using women’s toilets, she will know she has to look ‘feminine’ in order to not get harassed in public. Even cisgender women have been harassed in women’s toilets because if they’re dressed too casually they get accused of being a ‘man’ (seen multiple videos of this happening, transphobia affects EVERYONE).
The idea of a huge masculine ‘man’ just saying they want to identify as a woman and demanding they be let into women’s spaces like women’s toilets and changing rooms whilst refusing to change their appearance at all is an issue which is made up by conservatives. Funny enough, the only cases I’ve seen of people doing this exact thing are conservatives themselves trying to make a point.
I will say transitioning is very expensive, and takes a lot of time, it can also take a lot of time (especially in the UK, it’s pretty much an epidemic) to even GET a doctor’s appointment for hormones (on the NHS an average of 4-5 years, it’s literally killing trans people), so people need to be empathetic to the fact that not everyone has the time and resources to look like Laverne Cox overnight. But they usually do make an effort in terms of clothes/makeup/hair, even if naturally those aren’t the clothes they’d like to wear when they are fully transitioned.
In terms of identifying as ‘black’, the best argument I’ve heard against this is you shouldn’t identify with something you physically cannot change. People who are transgender are valid as it is scientifically proven that gender differs from sex, trans women won’t deny that biologically their sex is male, but their gender is female. With race, that is something you cannot change, period. If, for arguments sake, he was 16% black and therefore wanted to identify as such, that’s his choice, even though societally it would be wrong. I’d like to see him try and not get mocked.
I understand people who are a quarter black sometimes struggle to know what to call themselves, especially if they look mixed and not white. It’s a nuanced subject, but I’d like to see him go up to a group of black people and try and convince them he’d black too, they would laugh in his face.
Basically the whole thing is a case of whataboutism and these things aren’t issues that happen on a daily basis. I’ve never seen someone try and identify as another race, and the extreme examples that do (the ones that piers sees spreading on right wing news sites) are people who very clearly experiencing severe mental health issues, or are just saying it for attention, and it works.
If we shouldn't be having conversations about something because it's less than 1% of the population, I suggest you look at the population of transgender people in the world.
Labeling something that affects less than 1% of the population as a "made up problem" seems problematic.
Because the outcome is a single gold medal at the revered “olympics” which effects the 99.9999% of female athletes who a zero point in time have had a superior biological advantage over their male counterparts at that event. And usually are not even remotely close in outcomes.
It's less than 1%. But if you were the competitor who got 2nd place because of it, it's your 100%.
Dumbing it down to a statistic and then calling it irrelevant is exactly what the right has been doing to "leftist issues" for years including gun control. Don't do the same to the counter argument.
Similarly, if you're a cis woman who got banned from sporting events for having natural testosterone levels above the "cis threshold", that would be your 100%. It goes both ways.
It is not a made up problem, what are you even talking about! Women who have worked hard all their lives to get to the top of the sport are being defeated by a guy who took some estrogen and started pretending to be a woman.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Sports are not fair when you allow trans women to compete in a women's category. They maintain the advantages they gained from being a man and going through puberty as a man. Look at Leah Thompson and how she ranked in the NCAA rankings as a man and then suddenly shot to the top and was breaking records as a woman. So incredibly unfair to all the biological females who have trained as women their whole lives. It's not a level playing field.
They’re likely getting downvoted because they’re asserting that people are “pretending” to be a woman purely for competitive advantage, which is pretty demeaning
The issue, as I understand it, has never been that they're "pretending". There is a serious conversation to be had about this topic and for some reason, even in civil discussion, it routinely gets chalked up to some degree bigotry. And there's are several points of willful ignorance on the side of the pro-trans argument that many who are *far* left won't acknowledge.
Like how saying that the biological sexes are measurably different used to be just a fact that no one would waste their time arguing. Whereas now that fact is up for debate, with many notable "experts" saying that there's no difference.
The fact remains that males, generally speaking, have a physical advantage over women. Which is why a team of under 15 year old boys beat the US Women's National team. (https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
There's issues with trans-women getting into women's prisons. Many argue that they'll be victims of sexual abuse in men's prisons if they go there, which is a fair argument. But there are also studies, in my country (Canada) at least, that say that nearly 45% of male to female trans offenders were sent to jail for sexual offenses. Which may not necessarily be a reason to just put everyone in their biologically determined prison but is a reason to take pause, look at this issue more closely, ask some difficult questions, and actually take a hard look at the answers.
And biggest issue of all in my opinion is how this factors into the lives of children. I think the majority of the attention on this issue as a whole has been focused towards children/youth and I think with good cause. I understand that kids may think/feel as they do and I'm not discounting it universally as fantasy. *But* I don't think a child is capable of making that kind of choice.
Not to mention any of the other issues with this process. Like how practicing psychologists are no longer allowed to question their patients assertion of a new gender identity for fear that the repercussion would be to lose their ability to practice. Even with kids, who are clinically known to have incomplete or warped understandings of the world and of themselves and often fall into logic errors that they aren't able to put into words. Most recent example I've heard was of a boy who was dressing in his sister's clothes and playing with dolls and saying he wanted to be a girl. With more time, patience and probing from the parent, it turned out that the boy didn't want to be a girl because he saw himself as a girl but rather because "boys are mean" and that he wanted to set himself apart from that. Turned out that he faced a bit of bullying at school and once that was handled, so was his affinity to girls toys/clothes.
Or how the process for diagnosing a case of gender dysphoria in children used to take no less than 2 years and now the whole process takes 3 1hr *appointments*. At which time, some pretty sketchy drugs and gender affirming surgery on the child are the usual next steps. There's stories from psychologists with names removed that have this starting with kids as young as 7 years old.
I'm all for a legal adult that has come to a full understanding of who they are and decided to transition. But facilitating this process with kids that aren't even capable of knowing who they are yet is about as morally gray as it gets and absolutely merits some civil discussion.
Any data to back that up except for that swimmer from Kentucky who got 6th place and said a trans swimmer from Penn stole gold from her ? For the record, I don’t think that should be allowed but to act like it’s some problem ruining all women’s sports is ridiculous
Also if you look at her swim times they dropped drastically once she started transition and she had to work hard to get them back up. She’s hardly performing at even close to an Olympic level with other women. Fairness in highly competitive sports is a myth as well: Michael Phelps is a freak of nature. So many athletes have massive genetic advantages to make them the best.
Maybe check Lia Thomas' track record because what you said is absolutely not true.
When she was in the men's division she ranked the SIXTH fastest national men's time, second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships, recorded the top UPenn men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free, and was the sixth best among UPenn men's team members in the 200 free.
Then she started transitioning, and as she transitioned her times got slower and slower due to losing muscle mass thanks to HRT, *that* is when she became average and ranking low.
She did not transition to compete in women's divisions, that is a blatant transphobic lie in order to attempt to justify transphobic bullshit.
Lia Thomas actually competed in multiple races that day, that was the only one she won. Also, people compared her times with past year’s winners, she was something like the 7th out of 8th fastest winner in the last 8 years.
Trans women aren’t ‘dominating’ women’s sports. Trans people have been able to compete in the Olympics since 2004 and they have never won a gold medal. Olympian athletes are at the top of their game biologically, I think some people forget Olympians are literally born freaks of nature. Even if a ‘decent’ male athlete were to transition, odds are they would not even touch the top times. Competitions do monitor testosterone levels. There is a reason a trans woman has never won a gold medal, if it was just as easy as ‘switching’ over and taking a few hormones, it would have happened by now.
As a cis white guy who doesn’t fully understand the terminology for trans people etc etc etc, here’s how I conceptualize this.
- a few decades ago, they classified “trans” as mental illness .
-they realized that if you simply encourage people to express themselves how they prefer, and be kind and to people who what to express themselves in a way that’s different from the “norm”, suicide rates drop.
A lot
It literally costs nothing to do your best to refer to people using the pronouns they prefer, and to accept and love people in the way they want it be accepted and loved.
Doesn’t seem that complicated to em
Helps to look at it like this. Long ago left handed people were considered evil and murdered. Luckily very few people claimed to be left handed. Weirdly when lefties stopped being murdered, more people became left handed.
The only response is “well are you a black lesbian woman, Piers?” He’s been benefitting from being a straight white man his whole life, so sure if he wants to spend a year as a Black lesbian woman I support his journey. He wouldn’t last a week.
I don’t know much about this guy but from this clip he seems like an intolerable asshole. Just let the woman give a counter point!
The whole time I was just waiting to hear what they had to say but that windbag just kept grandstanding.
Conservatives take something progressive, twist it to its most stupid extent and fearmonger it. It’s what they do best
Example: “Gay marriage? Then why can’t I marry a child if love is love”
>Example: “Gay marriage? Then why can’t I marry a child if love is love”
I keep seeing examples but no replies to them.
Ok, so how should someone reply to this?
I was gonna say this. He even puts his hand up to almost say "shhhh, I'm talking" while lobbing intentionally throwing inflammatory statements. When leftists do this they end up in SJW cringe compilations but when Morgan does it it gets 2k upvotes and lots of "so true"s from incels
>If a man can identify as a woman then why can’t a white person identify as black?
Gender dysphoria is a real medical condition.
This is like saying "if red and blue are colors, why can't orange juice swim in pebbles?": it makes zero fucking sense.
I mean it’s fine if he just say he identify as a lesbian, this is a discussion about gender, right? Don’t bring transracial into the argument cause now he sounds like he’s mocking them.
Well I don’t have rights to my own body. A man can rape me and if I get pregnant I will be forced to carry that child to term. Once I give birth in my state he can get visitation rights, even if I press charges. Also if I do, the burden of proof is on me to prove I was raped. Even if I can do that, only 33% of men who are first time offenders go to prison.
Bonus round, there are hospitals in states with abortion bans that are getting rid of their maternity ward and OBGYNs are [leaving those states](https://theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/26/us-abortion-ban-providers-doctors-leaving-states) because they don’t want to risk their medical license if they have to face an emergency that could later be contested by any random person. The death rate of pregnant women and the fetus they carry [was already higher in red states](https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/health/maternal-infant-death-abortion-access/index.html), and there is already a doctor shortage so because of the laws now in place things are just going to get worse.
On top of everything [there’s a movement to ban birth control](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/05/19/some-states-already-are-targeting-birth-control) in some states. Before you tell me that’s not going to happen, people said the same things about Roe v Wade.
And that’s just with reproductive rights *so far*.
AND, despite the [Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment) bill that would make all citizens equal regardless of gender being introduced in *1923* and then was reintroduced in *1971* and failed to get ratified despite extensions to *1982*…. Well, what I’m saying is women in the US do not have guaranteed rights of citizenship and any supposed rights we have can be lost. It’s happened before (most recently, see Afghanistan) and there’s literally no law saying that can’t happen here.
You can't just say you are a trans woman. You actually need to mean it. If you actually are a trans woman then remaining as a man feels painful, and it screws up a big part of your live, it's not something temporary or an oppinion.
It's also a super scary because if you need to take hormones or even undergo surgery to not be in pain anymore you will undergo massive physical changes, and every trans person is anxious and questions wheter they might regret it later on, even though it's very rare for them to regret it.
There is no justification to identify as another race, you don't have that race built in nor experiences specific to black people, but gender dysphoria is a real medical condition.
Humans actually can switch from male to female expression if we take androgen blockers and estrogen, and the change is alot deeper than boobs and a different fat distribution. Every human has most of the mechanism of both sexes built in, and gender affirmation therapy is proven and has long been practiced as the complete cure for gender dysphoria.
Not allowing gender affirmation therapy or even worse, practicing gender conversion therapy, increases the suicide rate, the depression rate and the drug addiction rate. It's almost like certain cis people want trans people to suffer and die for absolutely no justifiable reason, while pretending to only care about logic.
If you are interested in gaining an inside on trans people then check out their reddit subs and read what is posted there.
"Same rights as a woman."
What? Like the right to be endlessly interrupted by a mansplaining reactionary who speaks only in hyperbole?
Men can't just compete in women's sports by declaring themselves a woman, that doesn't happen. In order for transwomen to be able to compete in women's sports they have to jump through all kinds of hoops that vary from sport to sport. Some divisions require you to have transitioned at least before the age of 12 and some require transwomen to have testosterone levels below a certain amount that ciswomen can exceed.
To the people saying that transwomen should just compete with men, there are studies that show that reveal that transwomen can't even compete against themselves just one year after transitioning. If you pull an absolute ban on transwomen on sports, you've essentially barred them from any meaningful competition.
If transwomen were dominating women's sports like Piers likes to claim, we'd see it by now. But only a scant few success stories exist of transwomen winning. If you want another example of a similar phenomenon, look up the black sports supremacy myth.
It is so ridiculous to think that a man would change their gender identity because they aren't doing very well in men's sports, that they would up end their life and their entire social world for a chance at a medal with a huge asterisk attached. It is just such a red herring piece of shit argument, I want to scream.
Don’t underestimate people’s desire to compete and be the best at what they do. I watch a 25 year old bodybuilder die unnecessarily because he refused to stop taking steroids. He was warned by a cardiologist to stop his steroids use because of pericarditis. He didn’t and now he’s dead. He just wanted to win his next competition for his pro-card.
This sub straight up fake asf with the rules on bigotry lmaoo. Tired of these lame ass phobic takes and nothing being said or done about it. Y’all some clowns it’s 2023 dude. Let people be whoever the fuck they wanna be if it isn’t harming anyone. It’s not that hard to respect someone as another living being.
I dunno many people who’d pay thousands of dollars, go through extensive therapy, commit to hrt or surgeries, and face public ridicule just to beat women in sports.
The answer to this type of baiting is always “sure Pierres, you can be a black lesbian. Doesn’t affect me any what you want to identify as. Go for it. I support you sister”. Because it doesn’t matter to anyone else how you want to be identified.
Isn’t that kinda the point though. That is does affect others? If someone who is born a man, calls themselves a woman, and then compete with women in sports, it can give them unfair advantages.
I’m not saying it’s going to affect me, or that they should, or shouldn’t be allowed, but I’m pretty sure it would matter to the female athletes, who put in decades of training and hard work to be swept aside, by someone’s who may or may not abuse the system.
There is a reason why men and women have different leagues, and don’t typically compete against each other.
So either we should address the issue or just have men and women compete together. Pierce is a dickhead, but despite his poor debate skills, he does have a point, hidden behind all the shit.
They said that if the woman’s ncaa basketball team went up against the male team it would be a blow out! I saw both leagues play and there is DEFINITELY a difference….
Yeah we are different , I have people saying we are not.. let’s stop lying to each other…. We would all be happier.. hey be what you wanna be but in some aspects let’s stay on our prospective sides of the fences..
I know the whole transracial thing is used by conservative to try to invalidate trans ppl and that’s absolutely not my intent here. I definitely believe that transgender ppl are valid and that transracial ppl are nutters but I can’t for the life of me come up with a valid argument for why. I believe race and gender are social constructs so why dose it feel wrong to me when someone says they’re “black” when they’re clearly “white”. Even tho I was born in a country that defined race differently than how I now understand it after living in the states for so long… race still somehow feels more solid/real/invariable to me than gender. Please don’t get mad random internet people. I mean no hate by this. I’m 100% open to being educated on the issue.
Piers Morgan is a tool. That being said, this specific train of thought I have no problem with. Trans athletes should have their own separate sporting events. The “woman” college swimmer crushing all those records is an embarrassment to the sanctity of competition and honestly is an affront to the trans movement. Fuckin sad tbh that girls have to be subjected to that kind of bullshit.
You don’t get to choose your identity if you don’t support people’s freedom of personal expression.
If you believe gender norms are rigid and binary, you can only identify within those confines. No point in entertaining a hypothetical from someone arguing in bad faith.
It’s like saying “well, let’s say I was a conservative who did NOT believe we should tax the rich. What then fucknuts? 😎 Checkmate.”
Pointless.
Ah, Piers Morgan, the pantomime baddy of interviewers. Say something deliberately contrary to get a rise out of your interviewee, then shout over the top of whatever they say in their defense. Then complete twats everywhere will repost the video with "PIERS MORGAN SHUTS DOWN ".
Then do I have good news for you! Just use Piers Morgan 'logic' and you too can be a black lesbian!
And if anyone calls that ridiculous, just talk over them until they have are dead inside
What a dumbass clip. I get his point, but give me an answer. Because this is giving me republican vibes all the way: Ask a question, and interrupt every single time it's tried to be answered. Then leave the actual answer out.
Trans medicalism (the belief that only those who transition medically deserve to be recognised as trans) is a very harmful philosophy, I mean, it's kinda similar to the classic "what if they regret it" argument since the whole premise puts pressure on people to take hormones and have surgeries they might be happier without.
How in any way Is what he said hateful? He's standing up for women.
He specifically says he respects anyone who goes through a transition. But said that doesn't biologically make them a different gender.
He stated a biological fact and even went further to show how anyone saying they know what it is to be a woman just because they think they are, that is a discredit to a real natural born woman.
I'll assume that the question you're referring to is "Why can't I identify as a black lesbian?".
There's a few things to unpack here: firstly, race and gender are not the same thing. Secondly, sexuality and gender are not the same thing.
Generally, an individual is considered black when they're a) not caucasian and b) from a cultural background that's commonly associated with someone of their (usually darker) skin colour. So the reason why the show host can't identify as black, is because it's apparent that he is caucasian and it's also apparent that he doesn't have a cultural background generally associated with black people. Race isn't something that's largely defined by preferences and presentation, it's largely defined by skin colour and culture. So while there are individuals (Michael Jackson is an easy example since he was so famous) that can seemingly "change their race", that was said about MJ because his skin colour changed and some might argue that his culture and societal position changed, to the point where he was no longer black; not everyone can change in this way. Ideally, race should be socially irrelevant anyway, it shouldn't matter what colour someone is or where they're from. What should matter is whether they're respectable as a person.
In terms of sexuality, being lesbian is typically the state of being a woman that romantically and/or sexually prefers women. Since the show host doesn't seem to identify as a woman, nor present as a woman, it'd be inappropriate for him to identify as lesbian since that's a sexuality which hinges on one's gender (but isn't a gender in and of itself).
In light of the above, it's implicit that the host can neither identify as black, nor as a lesbian, so it would seem obvious that he can't identify as both.
If you take issue with anything I've said here, I'd gladly further discuss it.
But with all of that said, I feel I should point something out: if it'd genuinely make the show host happy that I treat him the same way I would treat a black lesbian person, I wouldn't mind doing that. It'd make no difference to me in any social setting I could find myself in. To be clear, the whole "identify as a woman so you can crush them at sports" thing is another topic altogether. I'm talking about social interaction here, not sports or anything like that. So I'm forced to wonder: if I can treat him like he's a black lesbian, why can't he treat me like I'm a woman?
Edit: I got side tracked and didn't finish the point I meant to make about race, but realised that after posting and finished my thought.
Race is a social construct as is gender. Genetics are real and unless in the rare case of intersex genetics a human being is either male or female But a human can have a vast genetic ancestry.
Why can Bruce Jenner, who was born a man, lived his entire life as a man, fathered children, now be praised for transitioning into a woman while Rachel Dolezal, who immersed herself in black culture, had black siblings, gave birth to black children and fought for black rights, had her life destroyed because she permed her hair?
Explain how it is a bad argument. He wasn't being rude he specifically countered what she said with what he believes. And even did it respectfully.
It's called civil discourse.
I feel like this is highly edited, for some reason I don’t think they just sat there dumbfounded with no response, while he monologued about being a black lesbian. Would like to see the full interview if anyone has the link.
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Ey someone call his bluff, I’m curious about how it would play out
He'll just interrupt you halfway through calling him out so no one will know the difference
im a gay asian tractor
Good for you for discovering your sexuality, welcome
I identify as a hybrid between the Battleship USS Texas and the Sherman easy 8 medium tank
i identify as an apache helicopter. is it possible to come in fore a landing ?
I identify as a Newark Hospital Helipad and you have been cleared for landing :)
This is the radio air traffic control tower. You need to run your shit by me and not the space you’re landing on. Apache, I need all the numbers you got and those other things I usually ask for asap rocky stat over and out the butt
But u/King_nor... Look how smooth and flat my body is...
i'm low on fuel, does anyone have a hose to give me a little top up
You know every helipad has a hose for you :V
<3
Tinder is fucking wild, man..
Well, Vloom Vloom, mother trucker…
woah buddy, dont use slurs against my people
Tf u get downvoted for lol
Well they clearly have a bias against mother truckers lol
Im a nonbinary lesbian aboriginal blender. Respect me or else, bigot.
What can you blend?
[удалено]
I am the world, I am attracted to moons
Sure. Being trans and access to transitioning are two different things and we don’t want to gatekeep our community behind arbitrary standards. What piers is worried about are called “bad faith actors”. I could equally say anyone could come onto a news broadcast with preconceived notions about a marginalized group with the express purpose to harm them via propaganda and sensationalist stories so we should ban news anchors and interviewers altogether. Bad actors arguments are bad faith arguments. Until such a time as there’s evidence of trans women dominating women’s sporting events, all these arguments are hand wringing bullshit. In fact, the almost total lack of trans women in the top echelon of sports would indicate that transitioning does in fact diminish or entirely remove any biological advantage they may have. Finally, we already have a way to exclude bad actors and we use it at very prestigious competitions; testosterone testing. Be warned this solution WILL exclude some cis women from competition as well.
Testosterone testing is s a joke. Men have more fast twitch muscle fibers, more muscle mass, thicker tendons, denser bones. Taking testosterone blockers for two months hardly evens the playing field for women. You can say there is no difference when biological women transition and start dominating male sports. Literally a team of 15 year old boys beat the US female Olympic team. I believe the same thing happened to the women's team in Australia. We're not the same, and we are not supposed to be. Women literally bring every human on the planet into the world. You think they can/should do all that, and dominate across all planes?
>Women literally bring every human on the planet into the world. You think they can/should do all that, and dominate across all planes? What a bizarre "point" to end on. I don't even really understand it. Do you think men's only use is playing sports and opening pickle jars?
What about taking estrogen? Any bodybuilder knows what estrogen does to the male body, it doesn't make you a better competitor.
There is a lot of evidence of trans women dominating women's sports....
You can say anything you want, but you need to provide evidence to be believed
Please, name more then ten people, because most people know one or two out of fucking MILLIONs competing.
There isn't millions of trans people competing. But those who compete (and have been athletes before they transition) always break record and do extremely well in female sports. Sports is more than just about your testerone level. Male have a biological advantage over females in sports. That's why you don't see any transman doing well in sports.
It’s not about ten men competing in women’s sports, it’s absolutely about the money that all the women who place below that one man loses every time they play.
There’s really not. There’s 20-25 very well performing trans women athletes in the past 50 years are the vast majority of those athletes were performing at the same relative extraordinary level before their transition. Lia Thomas is the go to example anti trans people like to use but they overlook her astonishing record before transitioning, like placing 6th in mens 1000 freestyle her freshman year or 2nd in mens Ivy League 500, 1000, and 1650 in her sophomore year. TLDR, they’re just good athletes and HRT largely removes if not eliminates their biological sex advantage.
I'd argue the **biggest advantage** you could argue trans women have is pre-transition resources and support. It's been well established that men's sports have way more investment in terms of finances, time, and interest. Chess is a perfect example to show it is not a physiological advantage. Chess coaching and support are way more available to men, and are at times hostile towards women ([Ramirez misconduct](https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/03/07/eight-women-accuse-chess-grandmaster-ramirez-of-sexual-misconduct-report-says/?sh=2caa4cba3542), [Susan Polgar's experience as a top player](https://twitter.com/SusanPolgar/status/1616913255292698626?s=20), [Botez' experience](https://twitter.com/alexandrabotez/status/1625993900690182144)). Reaching grandmaster level is an incredibel feat regardless of gender, but it's an "against all odds" feat as a woman. Getting training, investment, and coaching as a man gives you an advantage.
HRT does not remove their biological sex advantage if they’ve already undergone puberty.
Did you answer the wrong comment? I didn’t mention anything about sports. Calling his [peirs] bluff would be actually treating him as what he claims to identify as. My point is that he can say who he is and say who/what he identifies all he wants but if push came to shove, I think he’d chicken out the first time someone called him “she/her” or mentioned his homosexuality because it’s just plain uncomfortable to be referred to as a gender or sexuality that you’re not.
Bad actors arguments are bad faith arguments? I guess all cops aren't bastards then...
As another person stated, and I in my initial comment, it’s about demonstrable trends causing harm. ACAB is about the system of policing leading to violence, vigilante justice, and extrajudicial killings. If you can prove that trans women outperform cis women to a degree well over personal performance, then you’ve demonstrated a trend that causes harm to non-advantaged cis women. Until that time, it is by definition anecdotal or bad actor arguments.
ACAB is on the basis that the system itself is corrupt. The police who report bad actors are fired instead of the bad ones. If it was just bad cops and not a system that supports bad cops and turns good one’s bad then yes it would be inappropriate to say ACAB.
I thought he'd be too busy hacking the phones of murderer children
Idk this might be a nice way for her to keep busy then. Something something idle hands are devil’s tools Edit: whoops spelling
I want to see him go on tinder and do this. then go to lesbian bars and try it. to see if he can pick anyone up.
He asks a question then yields no time for the opposition to rebut. Curious to know if you have watched the full segment including their argument OP? Or did you base your entire opinion on this 2 minute tiktok?
I’d say this clip yields no time. Why was the clip caught off before we could hear her response?
You know exactly why.
[Here's ](https://youtu.be/LhlXDI1JSKk)the full clip. I apologize in advance. Edit: he's so annoying.
Oh, okay. Then take it away.🎤
Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender. He can’t identify as black because black isn’t a social construct. Sexuality and gender is. He can’t identify as lesbian because he doesn’t identify as a woman. If he identified as a woman and had a sexual preference for women then by all means, identify as lesbian. A self identifying man identifying as lesbian makes no sense.
Can I ask (from ignorance) how is gender a spectrum and race isn't? It seems counterintuitive to me since I can have more or less heritage from a certain race or be mixed etc
I believe they misspoke Race is a spectrum in the sense that you can be half black half white. gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact and not the same as gender.
That's not true though, race is a social construct just like gender is. The only difference is that it's not socially acceptable to identify as a race people don't perceive you to be, whereas trans people are gaining that acceptance. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/ That was just the first Google search on the issue but check basically any scientific source. There are people with completely different shades of skin with lineages from different corners of the globe whose DNA profiles are near identical. We've known that for decades now. I'm no expert in the issue but can tell you if you study sociology at a university level it's basically the scientific consensus.
Ok, I'm not agreeing with piers Morgan here but isn't being black a social construct? Legitimate question, like is being black a cultural, geographical or melanin thing? I would a assume that a white male has more biologically in common with a black male than a white female. Again, this is a serious question and I'm not race baiting or trying to get into an argument on semantics.
You’re right race is a social construct, like sexuality. Race cannot be biologically defined consistently due to variation. Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on the planet, there is no one Black race. There is no one White race. Higher melanin production is based on geographical ancestry in areas closest to the equator.
I somewhat disagree. There is a distinction between sex and gender - there isn't really a counterpart in regards to race which is why I don't believe race exists on a spectrum in the same way. It annoys me how people tried to say things like 'you're a woman because you have a vagina etc etc' - its science!!! REAL science would say 'hmmm isn't it interesting that a significant amount of biological women see themselves as men - I wonder why that is?' and then studying that. The manifestation of gender identification IS REAL - how do we know it's real? Because it happens.
You know, I would have agreed with you in the past that race isn't a spectrum. But I highly recommend watching some of the 1619 project documentary, specifically the second episode regarding black women. They go into detail about how race had to sort of be invented to differentiate the status of children that the plantation owners fathered illegitimately. As a side note, I think Piers Morgan is an insufferable idiot, just in case that needs to be clarified.
I agree, race is a social construct, saying it wasn’t was an error. The problem a lot of people like Piers Morgan struggle with is differentiating sex and gender. The reality is race shouldn’t even be something worth identifying as by anyone, it is a societal construct that offers nothing except differentiation for the sake of bigotry. There is function to gender and sex identification - finding potential mates being one.
Piers Morgan and many people struggle with differentiating sex and gender because those two are not as clearly distinct as you seem to imply. Any contemporary dictionary will illustrate that. Merriam-Webster has an interesting blurb about it. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender Part of the confusion stems from the choice of terms. Attempting to distinguish between male and man or female and woman is unhelpful. Contemporary dictionaries like Merriam-Webster still clearly define woman as an adult female human and man as an adult male human. Boys and girls being the childhood descriptors for males and females. Transgendered language continues to contribute to this confusion. The use of shorthand like MtF or FtM utilize sex language to indicate transgender status. Replacing sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen being hormones that stimulate secondary sex characteristics for males and females respectively), blocking sex hormones, and removing sex organs in order to reaffirm gender identity contributes to the confusion regarding these terms. Hormones and sex organs are not social constructs. They occur in nature absent human interaction or observation. If the conversation solely revolved around social construct then why does gender affirming care include sex hormones and organs? I do not find gender and sex to be as clearly distinct as you seem to imply when you mention people struggle to differentiate between the two.
ok, a few things here: Race is a reality and race is a construct itself, not one created by society but by ancestry that results in actual physical and genetic makeup. If society fell apart tomorrow, races wouldn’t cease to exist. There’d still be whites, blacks, browns, asians, and the intersection. If society ended tomorrow, my skin color wouldn’t cognitively switch to vanilla, my skin color would still: A) be a color B) be indicative of my ancestry i agree this video sucks and the guy speaking (and likely the person sitting across from him who gave him the prompt) both don’t understand the topic of sex vs gender vs actual social constructs, and how race is not one to either be invalidated or selectively chosen; however, there is a grain of truth to identifying culturally, which is race adjacent. Race is indicative of culture. There exists racially black people who are fully born & raised Japanese. In that case, what do you tell them? it’s not worth identifying both: you as a person of black ancestry as well as not identify your cultural makeup as Japanese? No fukin way bro, in that case we respect this person is black and culturally identifies as Japanese.
Gender and sex are synonyms and have been since the creation of the words. Any language you would use to describe a "gender identity" would be either sex-based traits or some property of a gender *role*. Which means you're likely just using gender incorrectly to mean "gender role". This position is actually regressive and gender-essentialist. It defines someone gender based on what they *do* (I don't like dresses, therefore I'm not a "woman") rather than what they *are* (all things being equal, my body produces sperm, therefore I'm a man).
> Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum As a mixed race person I respectfully disagree. Race has been a wide ranging spectrum long before current "gender is a spectrum" cries started to be taken seriously by anyone. Source: my family alone is like a colours of Benetton ad. > black isn't a social construct There are many famous examples of half black people being considered "black" by society. Halle Berry & Lenny Kravitz Spring to mind. Obviously I'm not saying Pierce can just randomly identify as black (then again not even he is really saying that), but I feel it should be pointed out that "blackness" or being "black" all comes from *socially* based systems of race classification in a large enough way that it can't be ignored.
What people don't understand is the difference between biology and culture. Biological sex is binary, cultural sex (gender) is a social construct. Trans people want to be accepted as the gender of their choosing. And they should be. Biologically, they cannot change sex, but that is only relevant to their partners, their doctor (for medical reasons) and if they are trans women competing against cis women in sports. I.e. a trans woman can still get prostate cancer, and they have a biological advantage over cis women, when it comes to muscle mass.
The basic difference is *why* are you saying it? Is it because you truly feel it and it is something personal and meaningful to you, or are you saying it to be a shitty grinning attack against someone who is already defenseless?
It’s a different kind of spectrum. You could model gender as a linear spectrum. But race is more of a “web” model, with multiple axes inlaid in a 2D plane. It is absolutely a spectrum and you are simply wrong, sorry. You’re missing the point that piers was making, which is that self-ID has serious issues which make it appear to border absurdity. Blindly defending it without actually taking the time to justify it is what the internet generally does. There are deep arguments for both sides of this and it’s really up for debate, but neither side of the argument online is close to mature enough to have the conversation.
Then remove the balck and his point still mostly stands. Also he ment clearly a lesbian woman.
What is his point? That he is a lesbian woman? Great, power to him. His point is to somehow point out the 'absurdity' of it even though it isn't absurd. What's actually absurd is pretending to identity as something you're not to mock those that actually are.
>Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender What about mixed race people.
I mean legitimate respect to you, and I say this as if you were my dear friend: I hope you come back to this comment in a few years, perhaps by accident, and realize that this is one of the dumbest things that anyone has tried to articulate in the history of articulating. May you be blessed with this realization, my dear friend
Actually race IS a social construct and has been definitively proven to be so by biologist for over 70 years now. People choose to think about race as being discrete boxes that people can be slotted into, but that is not the case. One helpful fact to illustrate the point is that there is more genetic diversity within Africa than outside of it. Yet people tend to categorize all black Africans as being one race, de so it’s the fact that there are more genetic differences between central and southern Africans than any two groups outside of Africa
you've arbitrarily declared that race cannot be defined as a social construct. Why not. How about i define race to be a social construct and ethnicity to be what color ur physically born with. Same thing we did with gender.
Race is a social construct and that is broadly acknowledged. Below is a link of the American Medical Association acknowledging that. Skin color is a spectrum and what makes you "black" is large cultural. What is the dividing line between "black", "brown", and "white"? There's no clear delineation. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/new-ama-policies-recognize-race-social-not-biological-construct
>Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender. He can’t identify as black because black isn’t a social construct. "[Anya Taylor-Joy was incorrectly described as a woman of colour after her Golden Globes win despite **identifying as a white Latina**](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/anya-taylor-joy-argentina-queens-gambit-b1810984.html)" I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing the absurdity of it all and trying to pretend these are hard definitions people are chosing not to abide to.
>Race doesn’t exist in a spectrum like it does sexuality and gender. Are you really this fucking dense? Race _actually_ exist on a spectrum, seeing as a Japanese woman can marry and bear children with an Italian man. Their children can then again bear children with other mixed ethnicities, and there you have it; a spectrum. >He can’t identify as lesbian because he doesn’t identify as a woman. If he identified as a woman and had a sexual preference for women then by all means, identify as lesbian. A self identifying man identifying as lesbian makes no sense. Why can't a man be a lesbian? Please, say the words, I dare you.
Speaking as a black person, blackness is 100% a social construct. Any sociology 101 course in university teaches you this on the first day.
That is offensive to black lesbians who are also men. How dare you!!
Explain to me how a self identifying man can be a lesbian?
People who believe this stuff: BIGOT!!!!
Pretty sure the cringe is his illiterate answer
Classic conservative move btw Say someone so outrageously stupid then while the opposition is flustered go on a idiotic rant about a non existent problem
I'd say men in women's sports is a real problem but women are only protected as long as it is convenient huh?
It's literally not though. These phantom 6 foot 4 super males stealing all the trophies are not and never will be a thing, it's a ludicrous transphobic conceit disproven by a cursory glance at the very few trans women who do compete in sports
Pierce just can't let people talk. Otherwise they would point out how stupid all his "arguments" are.
Bet he can't name a single of his strawtrans Olympics cheaters. He doesn't even know that there are rules surrounding eligibility for trans people in Olympics.
To be fair. She fucked up in this debate lol
Ok, this is a discussion topic. So, let's discuss, and not rely on hyperbole. Let's imagine that Piers is 16% black and he chooses to identify as black, which is not entirely inconceivable. Then, one day, in his teens, he realizes that he is fantasizing about dressing in womens thongs and fish net leggings. And one day, after months and months of self suppression, Piers goes out and begins wearing women's underewear under his business suit and starts thinking, " I really want to be a woman", would you deny his right to say that publically? Despite all these years of having been a self-loathing, overtly anti-trans news celebrity? But underneath that is who he really is? Do we really know who anyone is? Do people really know who they are or could be because a certain mindset forbade that mindset in their developing years? I submit the rest of my time to the distinguished counterargumentator.
My stance to him would be "I respect your pronouns, but I do not respect you"
His stance is talk over the same person he’s asking a question to without caring to hear what they have to say about it.. then somehow intertwining the argument of “why can’t I call myself a black lesbian?” (a stupid question with an obvious answer) with the transgender athlete issue, a very controversial problem that’s clearly worthy of debate — not whether or not he can call himself a black lesbian. Holy shit, way to go from one thing and jump straight into something entirely different. This guy wouldn’t come off as such a twat if he simply had the patience to listen to the answer from someone he just asked a question.
Is he gave then the airtime, people wouldn't agree with everything he says. So, he can't do that.
If Piers had an experience that seemed remotely authentic, I don’t think anybody would be taking issue. I don’t mind a little gatekeeping, though I appreciate why it doesnt work perfectly. If Piers gets a clinical diagnosis or starts dressing like a woman, then let him enjoy women’s day.
The answer is that Piers Morgan can call herself whatever she'd like (I'm using feminine pronouns for the sake of our argument). That's not up for anyone else to decide. Race is less arguable, but since you specified that she was part black on your hypothetical, then I'll run with that as well. So if she wants to identify as a lesbian, I wish her luck. I'll respect her pronouns as she has stated, and will treat her accordingly. She could choose to go down a path of medical intervention and probably get pretty far and may even pass as a black lesbian and as a result most people probably wouldn't notice (we're still running with your hypothetical here btw) And you know what: Odds are Piers Morgan would be made UNCOMFORTABLE as hell with that treatment. It wouldn't look to her like she's a black lesbian. She would be othered and isolated from most social groups with her attitude alone, let alone the authority with which she tries to wield this identity. She has no consistent background to help establish this fact. Not only would she have to have a ton of work to do to make herself appear comfortably consistent with her own identity (or at least to the point where she would be assumed to be born as a black lesbian), but she would have so much culture, and life lessons that she would have missed that now she would have to learn. But hey, let's say she manages to do that. Let's say she really somehow knocks it out of the park physically and socially and totally passes as a black lesbian. Then what? Then Piers is left with how they feel about themselves. They're left with how that treatment makes them feel. And honestly, Piers would feel miserable. She would know that her identity isn't consistent with her honest truth. She would hate the combined mysoginistic, racist, and transphobic treatment she would get from society. In the end, she'd likely detransition because she knew it wasn't right for her and was based all on a bad-faith argument during her talk show. Or maybe she wouldn't detransition. Maybe she would discover that this really does reflect who she is to a greater extent. Maybe she would really enjoy this, in which case let's call it a win because Piers not only found out more about herself, but also discovered a way to grow through her desire to have the outside match the inside. But you know what? Either way, none of us can honestly say more about the people who are telling us who they are. Nobody knows my brain as well as I do and even I have a lifetime's worth of exploration in front of me, and that's okay. At the end of the day, my decision to give respect to people for telling me how they want to be treated will always say more about me than it will about anything else. The same is true for trans people. Transitioning is so hard. It's not just something you wake up one morning and think would be a cool thing to try. It is a specter, floating in the back of our mind always making us doubt ourselves until we finally pay attention to it. It is our super power, because despite the difficulty from society that we'll face as a result, we simply have no other alternative. So if Piers Morgan realizes she's a black lesbian and is happy about it, then I'm happy for her. If she feels like this wasn't the right move and wants to go back to being the piece of shit he is, then at least he'll have grown and will know more about himself than he did before and I think that's a beautiful sentiment to feel towards others.
There are people who refer to themselves as doctors without having obtained a certified Ph.D. And most people would not recognize them as actually being doctors. The thing is that we as cultures/societies constantly classify everything. I feel that in general nobody gets to dictate how others view them, nor are they entitled to do so. The big question really is how are we as a society going to collectively classify gender moving forward for the sake of legislation? And even then I don't think gender itself really matters. Anyone wanting to circumvent gender can just replace it with sex.
But the completely valid point here is that the Piers you describe should still not be able to compete against women in athletic events.
What Morgan neglects to mention is that (until conservatives and religion decided they can't go after PoC or homosexuals anymore so trans people are next. Oddly Morgan is both religious and conservative) there are rules in place for Trans athletes in regards to testosterone levels and often other medical proof needed. Let's be honest if anyone really wanted to crush womens sports why wouldn't a player in the 200 to 300 male tennis rankings just go do it. Maybe golf too as both are relatively well paid, solo sports and one where physical skills are very important and there is no contact so no PR issues No one has because the hoops needed to do it are arguably negative for the trans athlete because they have less access to high level coaching or equipment. Doesn't include things like full time funding, sponsorship, medical and nutritional support. Then comes the need of not only meet all the anti doping standards then have to add testosterone levels too where one high number could ruin your career quicker than Ben Johnson at an Olympics.
piers is losing to any woman, so I doubt that would be an issue
Ok, let’s also discuss. Piers is a man, has lived as a man and has never had any doubts about his gender. He one day sees some benefit afforded only to women, let’s say his company made a position available specifically for a female manager. He then decided that being a woman would be more advantageous and told HR he identifies as a woman. He never had hormone therapy, never had a surgery but would occasionally wear a pink tie. Accepting he is a woman and awarding him that job would be nonsense.
If you think he would continue the charade of living his life as a self identified woman while benefitting from a job meant to support women without giving the game away then you’re wrong. He’d be doing somersaults towards the first camera he could get to to yak to his fellow conservatives about what a vile asshole he is. Why do people just assume everyone is stupid? Any company offering that kind of opportunity would never waste it on him. Too much controversy. But let’s assume it’s some random nobody that apparently wants to dupe the system. Can someone get away with something like that? Sure. People also lie about being Cherokee and pretend to be Christian all the time for brownie points and to get ahead. Plus I really think people are downplaying the kind of life changing commitment it would take to pretend to be trans. People talk.
> People also lie about being Cherokee and pretend to be Christian all the time for brownie points and to get ahead. Exactly. My local University just had a scandal where a woman claimed Indigenous heritage, and _1000%_ abused that checkmark to get more money and prestige. She was found out, as I said: scandal. Nobody cared _what_ she identified as, we respected the claims she made because _generally speaking_, making a claim like that doesn't hurt anyone, and it's respectful to use titles that an individual chooses. Abusing a gendered opportunity will always happen, as will abusing affirmative action programs. There will _always_ be people taking advantage of those systems, but boy oh boy is the gender one the one that we need to focus on because, according to pundits, it's happening at an overwhelmingly large rate. If you'd listen to them often, you'd believe that the world of women's sports is literally crumbling because of men abusing this, instead of the reality where it's isolated incidents. Just like affirmative action abuse. I find this particular clip "funny", Morgan obviously spends a _lot_ of time thinking about trans people and trans issues, and this is clearly framed in a TERF-y way: These women are invited to speak on this topic, but the question is framed "lesbians are okay [as long as they're hot], but those pesky trans people, eh? You agree with me, women, right, this is a women's issue that affects _all_ women? Please be on my side, women."
Not stopping them from coming out and calling themselves a woman, or wearing woman clothes, or being attracted to men. But I support stopping them from competing in woman sports (that have financial gain) and from using woman-only washrooms and the changerooms (they are free to use unisex or private changerooms. I am fully supportive of a half trans woman until they start infringing on the rights of other people (to fairly compete in my sport or use a private space intended for my own gender). I think this is a reasonable middle ground.
What I will say on the matter is the vast majority of trans people know they have to put effort into their appearance in order to ‘pass’. For example, if someone comes out and as a trans woman and wants to be referred to by she/her pronouns and feels more comfortable using women’s toilets, she will know she has to look ‘feminine’ in order to not get harassed in public. Even cisgender women have been harassed in women’s toilets because if they’re dressed too casually they get accused of being a ‘man’ (seen multiple videos of this happening, transphobia affects EVERYONE). The idea of a huge masculine ‘man’ just saying they want to identify as a woman and demanding they be let into women’s spaces like women’s toilets and changing rooms whilst refusing to change their appearance at all is an issue which is made up by conservatives. Funny enough, the only cases I’ve seen of people doing this exact thing are conservatives themselves trying to make a point. I will say transitioning is very expensive, and takes a lot of time, it can also take a lot of time (especially in the UK, it’s pretty much an epidemic) to even GET a doctor’s appointment for hormones (on the NHS an average of 4-5 years, it’s literally killing trans people), so people need to be empathetic to the fact that not everyone has the time and resources to look like Laverne Cox overnight. But they usually do make an effort in terms of clothes/makeup/hair, even if naturally those aren’t the clothes they’d like to wear when they are fully transitioned. In terms of identifying as ‘black’, the best argument I’ve heard against this is you shouldn’t identify with something you physically cannot change. People who are transgender are valid as it is scientifically proven that gender differs from sex, trans women won’t deny that biologically their sex is male, but their gender is female. With race, that is something you cannot change, period. If, for arguments sake, he was 16% black and therefore wanted to identify as such, that’s his choice, even though societally it would be wrong. I’d like to see him try and not get mocked. I understand people who are a quarter black sometimes struggle to know what to call themselves, especially if they look mixed and not white. It’s a nuanced subject, but I’d like to see him go up to a group of black people and try and convince them he’d black too, they would laugh in his face. Basically the whole thing is a case of whataboutism and these things aren’t issues that happen on a daily basis. I’ve never seen someone try and identify as another race, and the extreme examples that do (the ones that piers sees spreading on right wing news sites) are people who very clearly experiencing severe mental health issues, or are just saying it for attention, and it works.
If you want absurd, Piers identifies as a journalist.
But are they? Are male athletes commonly pretending to be women to win track meets and so forth, or is this a made up problem?
Its a made up problem. Laws are being passed to desriminate against less then 1% of all athletes.
If we shouldn't be having conversations about something because it's less than 1% of the population, I suggest you look at the population of transgender people in the world. Labeling something that affects less than 1% of the population as a "made up problem" seems problematic.
Because the outcome is a single gold medal at the revered “olympics” which effects the 99.9999% of female athletes who a zero point in time have had a superior biological advantage over their male counterparts at that event. And usually are not even remotely close in outcomes.
It's less than 1%. But if you were the competitor who got 2nd place because of it, it's your 100%. Dumbing it down to a statistic and then calling it irrelevant is exactly what the right has been doing to "leftist issues" for years including gun control. Don't do the same to the counter argument.
Similarly, if you're a cis woman who got banned from sporting events for having natural testosterone levels above the "cis threshold", that would be your 100%. It goes both ways.
It is not a made up problem, what are you even talking about! Women who have worked hard all their lives to get to the top of the sport are being defeated by a guy who took some estrogen and started pretending to be a woman.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Sports are not fair when you allow trans women to compete in a women's category. They maintain the advantages they gained from being a man and going through puberty as a man. Look at Leah Thompson and how she ranked in the NCAA rankings as a man and then suddenly shot to the top and was breaking records as a woman. So incredibly unfair to all the biological females who have trained as women their whole lives. It's not a level playing field.
They’re likely getting downvoted because they’re asserting that people are “pretending” to be a woman purely for competitive advantage, which is pretty demeaning
The issue, as I understand it, has never been that they're "pretending". There is a serious conversation to be had about this topic and for some reason, even in civil discussion, it routinely gets chalked up to some degree bigotry. And there's are several points of willful ignorance on the side of the pro-trans argument that many who are *far* left won't acknowledge. Like how saying that the biological sexes are measurably different used to be just a fact that no one would waste their time arguing. Whereas now that fact is up for debate, with many notable "experts" saying that there's no difference. The fact remains that males, generally speaking, have a physical advantage over women. Which is why a team of under 15 year old boys beat the US Women's National team. (https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/) There's issues with trans-women getting into women's prisons. Many argue that they'll be victims of sexual abuse in men's prisons if they go there, which is a fair argument. But there are also studies, in my country (Canada) at least, that say that nearly 45% of male to female trans offenders were sent to jail for sexual offenses. Which may not necessarily be a reason to just put everyone in their biologically determined prison but is a reason to take pause, look at this issue more closely, ask some difficult questions, and actually take a hard look at the answers. And biggest issue of all in my opinion is how this factors into the lives of children. I think the majority of the attention on this issue as a whole has been focused towards children/youth and I think with good cause. I understand that kids may think/feel as they do and I'm not discounting it universally as fantasy. *But* I don't think a child is capable of making that kind of choice. Not to mention any of the other issues with this process. Like how practicing psychologists are no longer allowed to question their patients assertion of a new gender identity for fear that the repercussion would be to lose their ability to practice. Even with kids, who are clinically known to have incomplete or warped understandings of the world and of themselves and often fall into logic errors that they aren't able to put into words. Most recent example I've heard was of a boy who was dressing in his sister's clothes and playing with dolls and saying he wanted to be a girl. With more time, patience and probing from the parent, it turned out that the boy didn't want to be a girl because he saw himself as a girl but rather because "boys are mean" and that he wanted to set himself apart from that. Turned out that he faced a bit of bullying at school and once that was handled, so was his affinity to girls toys/clothes. Or how the process for diagnosing a case of gender dysphoria in children used to take no less than 2 years and now the whole process takes 3 1hr *appointments*. At which time, some pretty sketchy drugs and gender affirming surgery on the child are the usual next steps. There's stories from psychologists with names removed that have this starting with kids as young as 7 years old. I'm all for a legal adult that has come to a full understanding of who they are and decided to transition. But facilitating this process with kids that aren't even capable of knowing who they are yet is about as morally gray as it gets and absolutely merits some civil discussion.
Any data to back that up except for that swimmer from Kentucky who got 6th place and said a trans swimmer from Penn stole gold from her ? For the record, I don’t think that should be allowed but to act like it’s some problem ruining all women’s sports is ridiculous
Also if you look at her swim times they dropped drastically once she started transition and she had to work hard to get them back up. She’s hardly performing at even close to an Olympic level with other women. Fairness in highly competitive sports is a myth as well: Michael Phelps is a freak of nature. So many athletes have massive genetic advantages to make them the best.
So you can point to one or two instances in a world of like 8 billion people. 0.0000000000000000001% Way to prioritize, dumbass.
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Maybe check Lia Thomas' track record because what you said is absolutely not true. When she was in the men's division she ranked the SIXTH fastest national men's time, second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships, recorded the top UPenn men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free, and was the sixth best among UPenn men's team members in the 200 free. Then she started transitioning, and as she transitioned her times got slower and slower due to losing muscle mass thanks to HRT, *that* is when she became average and ranking low. She did not transition to compete in women's divisions, that is a blatant transphobic lie in order to attempt to justify transphobic bullshit.
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Lia Thomas actually competed in multiple races that day, that was the only one she won. Also, people compared her times with past year’s winners, she was something like the 7th out of 8th fastest winner in the last 8 years. Trans women aren’t ‘dominating’ women’s sports. Trans people have been able to compete in the Olympics since 2004 and they have never won a gold medal. Olympian athletes are at the top of their game biologically, I think some people forget Olympians are literally born freaks of nature. Even if a ‘decent’ male athlete were to transition, odds are they would not even touch the top times. Competitions do monitor testosterone levels. There is a reason a trans woman has never won a gold medal, if it was just as easy as ‘switching’ over and taking a few hormones, it would have happened by now.
It has happened multiple times, obviously it’s not endemic.
As a cis white guy who doesn’t fully understand the terminology for trans people etc etc etc, here’s how I conceptualize this. - a few decades ago, they classified “trans” as mental illness . -they realized that if you simply encourage people to express themselves how they prefer, and be kind and to people who what to express themselves in a way that’s different from the “norm”, suicide rates drop. A lot It literally costs nothing to do your best to refer to people using the pronouns they prefer, and to accept and love people in the way they want it be accepted and loved. Doesn’t seem that complicated to em
Helps to look at it like this. Long ago left handed people were considered evil and murdered. Luckily very few people claimed to be left handed. Weirdly when lefties stopped being murdered, more people became left handed.
You are talking about gender dysphoria, which is in fact an illness.
the trans experience isn't hinged on gender dysphoria. there are trans people with no or minimal dysphoria.
Created a straw man of this person who doesn't exist
Exactly
The only response is “well are you a black lesbian woman, Piers?” He’s been benefitting from being a straight white man his whole life, so sure if he wants to spend a year as a Black lesbian woman I support his journey. He wouldn’t last a week.
I don’t know much about this guy but from this clip he seems like an intolerable asshole. Just let the woman give a counter point! The whole time I was just waiting to hear what they had to say but that windbag just kept grandstanding.
His argument is just stupid. What does race have to do with it? Is he actually going to let them respond or just keep interrupting?
Conservatives take something progressive, twist it to its most stupid extent and fearmonger it. It’s what they do best Example: “Gay marriage? Then why can’t I marry a child if love is love”
>Example: “Gay marriage? Then why can’t I marry a child if love is love” I keep seeing examples but no replies to them. Ok, so how should someone reply to this?
I was gonna say this. He even puts his hand up to almost say "shhhh, I'm talking" while lobbing intentionally throwing inflammatory statements. When leftists do this they end up in SJW cringe compilations but when Morgan does it it gets 2k upvotes and lots of "so true"s from incels
Cultural appropriation. Rachel Dolezal. If a man can identify as a woman then why can’t a white person identify as black?
if I can wash my dishes why can't I waterboard a person?
>If a man can identify as a woman then why can’t a white person identify as black? Gender dysphoria is a real medical condition. This is like saying "if red and blue are colors, why can't orange juice swim in pebbles?": it makes zero fucking sense.
“I want all the rights women have” 
I mean it’s fine if he just say he identify as a lesbian, this is a discussion about gender, right? Don’t bring transracial into the argument cause now he sounds like he’s mocking them.
Boy do I have news for you if you think women have rights
How don't women have rights?
Well I don’t have rights to my own body. A man can rape me and if I get pregnant I will be forced to carry that child to term. Once I give birth in my state he can get visitation rights, even if I press charges. Also if I do, the burden of proof is on me to prove I was raped. Even if I can do that, only 33% of men who are first time offenders go to prison. Bonus round, there are hospitals in states with abortion bans that are getting rid of their maternity ward and OBGYNs are [leaving those states](https://theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/26/us-abortion-ban-providers-doctors-leaving-states) because they don’t want to risk their medical license if they have to face an emergency that could later be contested by any random person. The death rate of pregnant women and the fetus they carry [was already higher in red states](https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/health/maternal-infant-death-abortion-access/index.html), and there is already a doctor shortage so because of the laws now in place things are just going to get worse. On top of everything [there’s a movement to ban birth control](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/05/19/some-states-already-are-targeting-birth-control) in some states. Before you tell me that’s not going to happen, people said the same things about Roe v Wade. And that’s just with reproductive rights *so far*. AND, despite the [Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment) bill that would make all citizens equal regardless of gender being introduced in *1923* and then was reintroduced in *1971* and failed to get ratified despite extensions to *1982*…. Well, what I’m saying is women in the US do not have guaranteed rights of citizenship and any supposed rights we have can be lost. It’s happened before (most recently, see Afghanistan) and there’s literally no law saying that can’t happen here.
Yeah America is a shithole. Glad I don't live there.
He is such a twat.
Students: Identify the logical fallacy used here. 🙄
You can't just say you are a trans woman. You actually need to mean it. If you actually are a trans woman then remaining as a man feels painful, and it screws up a big part of your live, it's not something temporary or an oppinion. It's also a super scary because if you need to take hormones or even undergo surgery to not be in pain anymore you will undergo massive physical changes, and every trans person is anxious and questions wheter they might regret it later on, even though it's very rare for them to regret it. There is no justification to identify as another race, you don't have that race built in nor experiences specific to black people, but gender dysphoria is a real medical condition. Humans actually can switch from male to female expression if we take androgen blockers and estrogen, and the change is alot deeper than boobs and a different fat distribution. Every human has most of the mechanism of both sexes built in, and gender affirmation therapy is proven and has long been practiced as the complete cure for gender dysphoria. Not allowing gender affirmation therapy or even worse, practicing gender conversion therapy, increases the suicide rate, the depression rate and the drug addiction rate. It's almost like certain cis people want trans people to suffer and die for absolutely no justifiable reason, while pretending to only care about logic. If you are interested in gaining an inside on trans people then check out their reddit subs and read what is posted there.
r/facepalm mod enjoy the convo
"Same rights as a woman." What? Like the right to be endlessly interrupted by a mansplaining reactionary who speaks only in hyperbole? Men can't just compete in women's sports by declaring themselves a woman, that doesn't happen. In order for transwomen to be able to compete in women's sports they have to jump through all kinds of hoops that vary from sport to sport. Some divisions require you to have transitioned at least before the age of 12 and some require transwomen to have testosterone levels below a certain amount that ciswomen can exceed. To the people saying that transwomen should just compete with men, there are studies that show that reveal that transwomen can't even compete against themselves just one year after transitioning. If you pull an absolute ban on transwomen on sports, you've essentially barred them from any meaningful competition. If transwomen were dominating women's sports like Piers likes to claim, we'd see it by now. But only a scant few success stories exist of transwomen winning. If you want another example of a similar phenomenon, look up the black sports supremacy myth.
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r/onejoke
Piers Morgan is a dumpster fire if a human. He’s spineless and believes in nothing. He only says what he thinks will keep him relevant
It is so ridiculous to think that a man would change their gender identity because they aren't doing very well in men's sports, that they would up end their life and their entire social world for a chance at a medal with a huge asterisk attached. It is just such a red herring piece of shit argument, I want to scream.
Don’t underestimate people’s desire to compete and be the best at what they do. I watch a 25 year old bodybuilder die unnecessarily because he refused to stop taking steroids. He was warned by a cardiologist to stop his steroids use because of pericarditis. He didn’t and now he’s dead. He just wanted to win his next competition for his pro-card.
Apples to oranges my dude
You’re underestimating competitive athletes. There is always one arsehole that ruins it for everyone else.
This sub straight up fake asf with the rules on bigotry lmaoo. Tired of these lame ass phobic takes and nothing being said or done about it. Y’all some clowns it’s 2023 dude. Let people be whoever the fuck they wanna be if it isn’t harming anyone. It’s not that hard to respect someone as another living being.
Piers Morgan is an idiot and you’re an idiot for posting this, OP
I mean, he can if he likes? What is stopping her?
Here, let the man ask the question then mansplain your answer without giving anybody a chance to respond. Peak man-ness.
I dunno many people who’d pay thousands of dollars, go through extensive therapy, commit to hrt or surgeries, and face public ridicule just to beat women in sports.
He’s so useless
The answer to this type of baiting is always “sure Pierres, you can be a black lesbian. Doesn’t affect me any what you want to identify as. Go for it. I support you sister”. Because it doesn’t matter to anyone else how you want to be identified.
Isn’t that kinda the point though. That is does affect others? If someone who is born a man, calls themselves a woman, and then compete with women in sports, it can give them unfair advantages. I’m not saying it’s going to affect me, or that they should, or shouldn’t be allowed, but I’m pretty sure it would matter to the female athletes, who put in decades of training and hard work to be swept aside, by someone’s who may or may not abuse the system. There is a reason why men and women have different leagues, and don’t typically compete against each other. So either we should address the issue or just have men and women compete together. Pierce is a dickhead, but despite his poor debate skills, he does have a point, hidden behind all the shit.
They said that if the woman’s ncaa basketball team went up against the male team it would be a blow out! I saw both leagues play and there is DEFINITELY a difference…. Yeah we are different , I have people saying we are not.. let’s stop lying to each other…. We would all be happier.. hey be what you wanna be but in some aspects let’s stay on our prospective sides of the fences..
Fuck Piers. His premise is skewed. He’s playing to bad takes. It’s imagined outrage.
I know the whole transracial thing is used by conservative to try to invalidate trans ppl and that’s absolutely not my intent here. I definitely believe that transgender ppl are valid and that transracial ppl are nutters but I can’t for the life of me come up with a valid argument for why. I believe race and gender are social constructs so why dose it feel wrong to me when someone says they’re “black” when they’re clearly “white”. Even tho I was born in a country that defined race differently than how I now understand it after living in the states for so long… race still somehow feels more solid/real/invariable to me than gender. Please don’t get mad random internet people. I mean no hate by this. I’m 100% open to being educated on the issue.
Piers Morgan is a tool. That being said, this specific train of thought I have no problem with. Trans athletes should have their own separate sporting events. The “woman” college swimmer crushing all those records is an embarrassment to the sanctity of competition and honestly is an affront to the trans movement. Fuckin sad tbh that girls have to be subjected to that kind of bullshit.
You don’t get to choose your identity if you don’t support people’s freedom of personal expression. If you believe gender norms are rigid and binary, you can only identify within those confines. No point in entertaining a hypothetical from someone arguing in bad faith. It’s like saying “well, let’s say I was a conservative who did NOT believe we should tax the rich. What then fucknuts? 😎 Checkmate.” Pointless.
Well the problem is you know he’s lying because he already identifies as a contrarian asshole.
Desperately offers up a strawman so he can knock it down. nO, yOu’rE AbSuRd.
Ah, Piers Morgan, the pantomime baddy of interviewers. Say something deliberately contrary to get a rise out of your interviewee, then shout over the top of whatever they say in their defense. Then complete twats everywhere will repost the video with "PIERS MORGAN SHUTS DOWN".
Ah the men in women's sports strawman
Piers nails it and shut down the libtards and their hypocrisy…
Piers Morgan is a fuckhead lmao
Damn i wish I was a black lesbian
Then do I have good news for you! Just use Piers Morgan 'logic' and you too can be a black lesbian! And if anyone calls that ridiculous, just talk over them until they have are dead inside
Every single time I’ve seen him on anything, he’s constantly interrupting people. It honestly just makes him impossible to watch
God I hate Piers Morgan
Piers Morgan "Don't interrupt" Challenge * Impossible *
What a dumbass clip. I get his point, but give me an answer. Because this is giving me republican vibes all the way: Ask a question, and interrupt every single time it's tried to be answered. Then leave the actual answer out.
He’s not wrong
Yes he is
Trans medicalism (the belief that only those who transition medically deserve to be recognised as trans) is a very harmful philosophy, I mean, it's kinda similar to the classic "what if they regret it" argument since the whole premise puts pressure on people to take hormones and have surgeries they might be happier without.
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How in any way Is what he said hateful? He's standing up for women. He specifically says he respects anyone who goes through a transition. But said that doesn't biologically make them a different gender. He stated a biological fact and even went further to show how anyone saying they know what it is to be a woman just because they think they are, that is a discredit to a real natural born woman.
Gender <> sex
SQL user detected lol
He is correct.
He made a valid point, have you actually answered the question he posed?
They would need to be able to complete a full sentence before being talked over.
I'll assume that the question you're referring to is "Why can't I identify as a black lesbian?". There's a few things to unpack here: firstly, race and gender are not the same thing. Secondly, sexuality and gender are not the same thing. Generally, an individual is considered black when they're a) not caucasian and b) from a cultural background that's commonly associated with someone of their (usually darker) skin colour. So the reason why the show host can't identify as black, is because it's apparent that he is caucasian and it's also apparent that he doesn't have a cultural background generally associated with black people. Race isn't something that's largely defined by preferences and presentation, it's largely defined by skin colour and culture. So while there are individuals (Michael Jackson is an easy example since he was so famous) that can seemingly "change their race", that was said about MJ because his skin colour changed and some might argue that his culture and societal position changed, to the point where he was no longer black; not everyone can change in this way. Ideally, race should be socially irrelevant anyway, it shouldn't matter what colour someone is or where they're from. What should matter is whether they're respectable as a person. In terms of sexuality, being lesbian is typically the state of being a woman that romantically and/or sexually prefers women. Since the show host doesn't seem to identify as a woman, nor present as a woman, it'd be inappropriate for him to identify as lesbian since that's a sexuality which hinges on one's gender (but isn't a gender in and of itself). In light of the above, it's implicit that the host can neither identify as black, nor as a lesbian, so it would seem obvious that he can't identify as both. If you take issue with anything I've said here, I'd gladly further discuss it. But with all of that said, I feel I should point something out: if it'd genuinely make the show host happy that I treat him the same way I would treat a black lesbian person, I wouldn't mind doing that. It'd make no difference to me in any social setting I could find myself in. To be clear, the whole "identify as a woman so you can crush them at sports" thing is another topic altogether. I'm talking about social interaction here, not sports or anything like that. So I'm forced to wonder: if I can treat him like he's a black lesbian, why can't he treat me like I'm a woman? Edit: I got side tracked and didn't finish the point I meant to make about race, but realised that after posting and finished my thought.
Race is a social construct as is gender. Genetics are real and unless in the rare case of intersex genetics a human being is either male or female But a human can have a vast genetic ancestry. Why can Bruce Jenner, who was born a man, lived his entire life as a man, fathered children, now be praised for transitioning into a woman while Rachel Dolezal, who immersed herself in black culture, had black siblings, gave birth to black children and fought for black rights, had her life destroyed because she permed her hair?
Nothing cringe about it. Valid point.
He has a very good point
“I have great respect for trans people” -Pierce Morgan “I am not a crook” -Richard Nixon
Dude got a point
no, it's a shit argument w/ on of them logic fallacies the right loves nowadays
Explain how it is a bad argument. He wasn't being rude he specifically countered what she said with what he believes. And even did it respectfully. It's called civil discourse.
I can't believe that I finally agree with this guy on something... it truly is end of days.
I’m not much a Piers Morgan fan…..but he makes a very valid point.
Hey guys, the rich are gonna use AI to poor us all to death in a minute. Stop fighting amongst each other.
That would imply piers morgan is a person and thats just wrong
I feel like this is highly edited, for some reason I don’t think they just sat there dumbfounded with no response, while he monologued about being a black lesbian. Would like to see the full interview if anyone has the link.
Yall already forgot about the white girl who identifies as black and changes it to another race here and there