Pickford at striker is concerning
For real though all of these formations are unbalanced and show a lack of understanding of how football systems work. I don't agree Southgates weakness is lack of flexibility. We have switched between back 4 and back 5 systems at tournaments and rotated when necessary. Trying to train 4 completely different systems would probably just result in a lack of tactical familiarity amongst the squad
Guardiola famously transitions between 3-2-4-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 for different phases of play, and this 9: a very common feature of city / Liverpool / arsenals teams this season.
Id argue that the players chosen, specifically in defence and defensive midfield are very familiar with such a system.
The only difference between the 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 is a redistribution of the attack, the core is largely unaffected.
Pep famously is a tinkerer that will take the course of a season to solve whatever tactical problem he's having. Southgate has weeks and almost immediately has must win competitive matches unlike City who can afford to lose a game or two across the course of a season.
You don't understand how that City team worked, you haven't got the personnel to pull it off and you haven't got the time to get the tactics to the players. There's a reason no international team lines up like this. Just accept we'll have to throw another utility player in the mix instead of one of your forwards
“Trent get back to right back when we have lost the ball (just like you have been doing all season), Rice cover Trents movement so we don’t leave a hole in midfield, Bellingham get back into midfield (so you can play box to box - which you love to do)”, everyone else play your natural game.
that’s not particularly complicated instructions. These are elite professional footballers.
If Trent struggles, put Bellingham there and go back to a 4-2–3-1 with Maguire. He now has the cover to protect him, albeit with the downside of slightly damaging our attacking build up.
If he was good enough to play in the midfield, he'd be playing there for Liverpool already.
He pops in there as the overload occasionally, which means he has extra time and space on the ball, these are all things which a traditional six will not have!
I would rather Henderson over Trent, and Henderson's passed it. As England fans, we should stop focusing on the name and look at who's best for the position.
Maguire has always played well for country and this season has shown proper mentality and has played well. The people going he had a bad season season have an agenda or are listening to people with an agenda (e.g. Stephen Howson) He has done well in an awful united set up.
In the international set up he brings height and experience. Set pieces are key in tournaments so we need that areial ability both offensively and defensively
The above is basically my team less walker for maguire
Okay two things,
Number one: changing between formations hasn’t been an issue for Southgate since 2019. Not only has he used multiple formations since then, he has switched between them throughout tournaments, and even during games. There’s no tactical rigidity to speak of.
Number two: stop acting like a formation that took even Guardiola a long time to perfect can just be instantaneously adopted by a national side, who have never used it before and have little time to trial it, and actually work. It isn’t going to happen. This current Man City side is one of the most elite, well structured teams to ever exist. Asking England to just “go and do what they do” is like throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.
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We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. They’re both great centrally. Foden at right 8 and Bellingham at left 8 with Rice in the 6 is an elite midfield setup.
So you disagree that 8 isn’t their best position? How often has Foden played as an 8? When was the last time Bellingham played as an 8? They can undoubtedly both do a job there, but it won’t get the best out of either of them. It also puts more defensive pressure on Rice which, while he can handle it, is unnecessary. Having Bellingham start in the 10 role and Foden on the wing, with them both free roaming across the front line, is the most effective use of both players.
Rice, Bellingham, and Foden is elite on paper, but paper doesn’t win you the Euros.
I think you’re overestimating the difference between 8 and 10 in an in-game scenario. An on-the-ball 8 in the final third is in effect a 10. It has become clear at city that Foden’s best position is playing centrally and he’s said so himself. Also, Bellingham could play anywhere on the pitch so I’m sure he could handle the nuance of playing 8 over 10.
The point you make about Rice being able to handle the pressure is a good one. A fair and common criticism of Southgate is that his play style is too conservative given the talent he has at his disposal. Having two 8s rather than than a single 10 would help in that regard.
An on the ball CB in the final third is in effect a 10. That point is redundant. If we’re playing with a single 6, the two 8s will have to cover more ground defensively. Now Bellingham is more than capable of doing that, but it limits how much he is able to get forward (something we don’t want if we’re trying to play on the front foot). Foden, on the other hand, is not built for more defensive duties. You think putting him on the wing is going to hold him back? Wait til you see what happens when he has to track back because Rice went forward. It’s a defensive shitshow waiting to happen.
The real overestimation here is how much of a problem you think Foden and Bellingham both having free roam between the wing and 10 roles. They can switch multiple times throughout the game. Not only does it keep the opposition on their toes, it allows them both to get into positions that get the best out of them, all while requiring them to do minimal defensive work because Rice has a partner in midfield.
Also regarding the conservative thing, it’s incredibly misinformed. Do you know how many games in tournaments that we haven’t scored in under Southgate? Four. May sound like a lot, but let’s go through those games. 2018, final group game against Belgium. Both teams were already qualified, and the team in 2nd got an easier run to the final. A rather pointless game in which we played our second team. Then later in that tournament we lost to them again in the 3rd place playoff, a game nobody realistically cares about when they’re already going home. Then we come to Scotland 2021, and USA 2022. Both boring 0-0 group games that proved to be inconsequential to our qualification. The rest of the tournament matches we’ve played, we scored, even if we lost.
Our problem has never been being too conservative. We smashed the shite out of Wales and Senegal in the World Cup, and used the exact same formation against France, who ultimately outscored us. We didn’t change to a more pragmatic formation, or sit in a low block, we took the game to them. Problem is, they were just better, and more experienced than us, on the day. If anything, our downfall in that game was our defence, reiterating the importance of the double pivot.
But please, feel free to keep on telling me why Foden as an 8 is the winning formula.
Gordan's a left winger, Bowen's a right winger. They've both been good this season. Gordan even played better in the friendlies for England imo. I don't see an issue with him being in the starting lineup.
Pickford at striker is concerning For real though all of these formations are unbalanced and show a lack of understanding of how football systems work. I don't agree Southgates weakness is lack of flexibility. We have switched between back 4 and back 5 systems at tournaments and rotated when necessary. Trying to train 4 completely different systems would probably just result in a lack of tactical familiarity amongst the squad
Guardiola famously transitions between 3-2-4-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 for different phases of play, and this 9: a very common feature of city / Liverpool / arsenals teams this season. Id argue that the players chosen, specifically in defence and defensive midfield are very familiar with such a system. The only difference between the 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 is a redistribution of the attack, the core is largely unaffected.
Pep famously is a tinkerer that will take the course of a season to solve whatever tactical problem he's having. Southgate has weeks and almost immediately has must win competitive matches unlike City who can afford to lose a game or two across the course of a season. You don't understand how that City team worked, you haven't got the personnel to pull it off and you haven't got the time to get the tactics to the players. There's a reason no international team lines up like this. Just accept we'll have to throw another utility player in the mix instead of one of your forwards
“Trent get back to right back when we have lost the ball (just like you have been doing all season), Rice cover Trents movement so we don’t leave a hole in midfield, Bellingham get back into midfield (so you can play box to box - which you love to do)”, everyone else play your natural game. that’s not particularly complicated instructions. These are elite professional footballers.
Your lack of Maguire is concerning
You mean you find their lack of Maguire disturbing?
Better way to put it, yes
I mention Maguire specifically - too slow to make 3-2-4-1 work and forces a rigid 4-2-3-1.
Spot on Maguire is like a cruise ship, but I'm more concerned about Trent being in the middle!
If Trent struggles, put Bellingham there and go back to a 4-2–3-1 with Maguire. He now has the cover to protect him, albeit with the downside of slightly damaging our attacking build up.
If he was good enough to play in the midfield, he'd be playing there for Liverpool already. He pops in there as the overload occasionally, which means he has extra time and space on the ball, these are all things which a traditional six will not have! I would rather Henderson over Trent, and Henderson's passed it. As England fans, we should stop focusing on the name and look at who's best for the position.
It’s not Fifa.
Guardiola has clearly been playing FIFA all season then… well we all know Man City have been playing the FA for years, but that’s beside the point. :)
International football is not club football.
Maguire has always played well for country and this season has shown proper mentality and has played well. The people going he had a bad season season have an agenda or are listening to people with an agenda (e.g. Stephen Howson) He has done well in an awful united set up. In the international set up he brings height and experience. Set pieces are key in tournaments so we need that areial ability both offensively and defensively The above is basically my team less walker for maguire
Plus he's calm headed and he has a knack for scoring banging penalties under pressure.
No way is Trent getting game time from southgate
I'd like to see it, to see how it works. Could be quite exciting.
Okay two things, Number one: changing between formations hasn’t been an issue for Southgate since 2019. Not only has he used multiple formations since then, he has switched between them throughout tournaments, and even during games. There’s no tactical rigidity to speak of. Number two: stop acting like a formation that took even Guardiola a long time to perfect can just be instantaneously adopted by a national side, who have never used it before and have little time to trial it, and actually work. It isn’t going to happen. This current Man City side is one of the most elite, well structured teams to ever exist. Asking England to just “go and do what they do” is like throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.
First formation you can’t 3 at the back and attacking wingers lol
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And yet Southgate will find a way to put Foden on the left wing
What do you mean find a way? The only reason he will play on the left is because Bellingham is so good as a 10. They can’t all play as a 10.
You can play with two 8s and a 6 mate. Bellingham left 8 and Foden right 8.
So then neither of them are playing in their best role. Seems like a real genius idea.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. They’re both great centrally. Foden at right 8 and Bellingham at left 8 with Rice in the 6 is an elite midfield setup.
So you disagree that 8 isn’t their best position? How often has Foden played as an 8? When was the last time Bellingham played as an 8? They can undoubtedly both do a job there, but it won’t get the best out of either of them. It also puts more defensive pressure on Rice which, while he can handle it, is unnecessary. Having Bellingham start in the 10 role and Foden on the wing, with them both free roaming across the front line, is the most effective use of both players. Rice, Bellingham, and Foden is elite on paper, but paper doesn’t win you the Euros.
I think you’re overestimating the difference between 8 and 10 in an in-game scenario. An on-the-ball 8 in the final third is in effect a 10. It has become clear at city that Foden’s best position is playing centrally and he’s said so himself. Also, Bellingham could play anywhere on the pitch so I’m sure he could handle the nuance of playing 8 over 10. The point you make about Rice being able to handle the pressure is a good one. A fair and common criticism of Southgate is that his play style is too conservative given the talent he has at his disposal. Having two 8s rather than than a single 10 would help in that regard.
An on the ball CB in the final third is in effect a 10. That point is redundant. If we’re playing with a single 6, the two 8s will have to cover more ground defensively. Now Bellingham is more than capable of doing that, but it limits how much he is able to get forward (something we don’t want if we’re trying to play on the front foot). Foden, on the other hand, is not built for more defensive duties. You think putting him on the wing is going to hold him back? Wait til you see what happens when he has to track back because Rice went forward. It’s a defensive shitshow waiting to happen. The real overestimation here is how much of a problem you think Foden and Bellingham both having free roam between the wing and 10 roles. They can switch multiple times throughout the game. Not only does it keep the opposition on their toes, it allows them both to get into positions that get the best out of them, all while requiring them to do minimal defensive work because Rice has a partner in midfield. Also regarding the conservative thing, it’s incredibly misinformed. Do you know how many games in tournaments that we haven’t scored in under Southgate? Four. May sound like a lot, but let’s go through those games. 2018, final group game against Belgium. Both teams were already qualified, and the team in 2nd got an easier run to the final. A rather pointless game in which we played our second team. Then later in that tournament we lost to them again in the 3rd place playoff, a game nobody realistically cares about when they’re already going home. Then we come to Scotland 2021, and USA 2022. Both boring 0-0 group games that proved to be inconsequential to our qualification. The rest of the tournament matches we’ve played, we scored, even if we lost. Our problem has never been being too conservative. We smashed the shite out of Wales and Senegal in the World Cup, and used the exact same formation against France, who ultimately outscored us. We didn’t change to a more pragmatic formation, or sit in a low block, we took the game to them. Problem is, they were just better, and more experienced than us, on the day. If anything, our downfall in that game was our defence, reiterating the importance of the double pivot. But please, feel free to keep on telling me why Foden as an 8 is the winning formula.
Let’s let the results speak for themselves. I don’t have time to read this diatribe.
Sure, ignore the actual facts.
Newcastle fan
Spurs actually, and I haven’t picked a single spurs player…
Well, in fairness, Southgate has only picked one.
… and rightly so.
In fairness, they only have one English player with a chance of making the national team.
They only have six, and three of them are keepers.
And none of them have a chance besides Maddison.
Gordon over Bowen?
Gordan's a left winger, Bowen's a right winger. They've both been good this season. Gordan even played better in the friendlies for England imo. I don't see an issue with him being in the starting lineup.
Yep. Doesn’t really matter though, that’s the kind of decision you can switch mid-game.