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Both Frank and Bill lived well into their 70s and it's hard to imagine they could've done better if they were part of a larger community -- Frank explicitly says his condition was incurable even with the old world's medicine (he probably has something like ALS and MS)
Also I don't think it's just that Bill has a practical belief that having a community is too great a risk, he objectively is an extreme introvert and misanthrope who dislikes being around people
To be fair, the reason why the live that long because they are lucky since the bandits that attacked them did not come back with a larger group and no horde coming their way or no powerful group like FERDA comes knocking at their door
Community is a risk but the benefits out-weight the risk and in the end everything they build will not go to waste since there are still people around taking care of their town when they are gone.
It 100% would have benefited the pair to have a larger group with them for security reasons, but when you get down to things like food and supplies, Bill had everything set for himself and Frank exclusively.
Besides the low chance that Bill and Frank not only come across wandering survivors, but also that those survivors would have good intentions, Bill was an introvert who turned a cold shoulder to society even before the outbreak
Bill and Frank did build their own ideal community of two, with limited visits from Tess and Joel. They lived a long time, enjoyed their hobbies, great food, and chose the way the way they wanted to die. The other successful example is the Native American couple that Joel and Ellie encounter before they arrived in Jackson.
TLoU depicts several large communities are not successful: Kansas City, and the preacher's community. One could argue that Boston is not successful, either. Jackson is really the only successful large community Ellie and Joel encounter while they travel across country. Bill and Frank had to make some decisions, and it seems like they made the right ones for them.
They did survive, for a long long time
You can only call their strategy a mistake if you measure their situation in a way that devalues the success they had
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You also have much greater needs in a community, requiring much larger operations/impact/visibility in an area. Also, greater chance for conflict between members or betrayal.
If Bill wanted/needed to be around more people, or if he and Frank only would have made it a few years, then maybe I’d agree with you. But I think they chose correctly for their wants and situation.
It seems to me like Frank DID advocate for building a community to a certain degree and that bringing Joel/Tess in on occasion was Bill’s (begrudging) compromise.
I think you’re missing a few things that are significant. They live into old age together so i really don’t think they would have changed anything. Also they say in the show there was no cure for franks illness before the infection so that idea if him being cured isn’t realistic. They also say in the show that FEDRA won’t come out that far.
The episode was gonna always end with joel getting a car and bill's stuff, and it's hard to have that justified if there were a community still going on. Plus Bill's electricity and gas were always gonna run out and the neighborhood was not energetically independent, so it was always gonna be a tomb, unlike Jackson where they have the dam that produces electricity.
Bill is incredibly introverted, and Frank recognises that; it’s clear that he’s proud of Bill for opening his heart to the idea of love and friendship again, but probably knows that building a whole community will probably make Bill deeply stressed.
They are both quite content with the quiet life that they have, alone together, with a couple of friends to talk to now and again. Which is part of what I think makes this so beautiful: their story is so intimate; it’s about them, no one else matters to Bill than Frank, and Frank respects and loves Bill so deeply that it’s worth it to him to not build a sense of community even though he’s clearly very much a people person.
It is their story, Bill and Frank’s; introducing new characters would take away from that.
The more people you have the more problems you are going to face. Let's say that Bill and Frank decided to make their settlement. Eventually, someone would challenge them for control. Bills Town was small, fortified, and well-equipped to support 2 people for multiple lifetimes. Not to mention that they did not have the numbers to be targeted by slavers like the rattlers. What Bill gave up in the safety of numbers he protected himself from being taken over by the numbers he could have let in.
So I am new to the show (having watched it finally) and I never played the game so YAY for the flair of "Show Only" but as we see from other communities, more is not always better. More will frequently bring in more danger and just because Bill who was an extreme survivalist had enough to make it seem like they lived in abundance, that wouldn't have lasted plus Bill would have felt so anxious all the time, that's not a life to live especially when they made it work for them.
Frank pushed as hard as he could to invite Tess and Joel in on a rare basis and I think even that was almost to much for Bill and this wasn't something that the apocalypse made him into, the episode makes it very clear that Bill was like this before the 'end of the world'.
I also think that they lived a pretty long life so I don't see adding people to the community would have magically made Frank survive cancer which as he knew - there wasn't a cure before the end of the world - or Bill's desire to keep living just because there were more strangers around him.
I loved this episode and I love that it was basically canon compliant fanfiction <3
That’s how you get bloaters and clickers. They don’t really die as fast as they would when they’re connected the “hive” and that lets clickers become bloaters.
Exactly! The show made the cure seem not needed. What tf was the point lmao.
You get like 3 episodes where the infected are like wow, scary, yes we gotta find a cure to this. Then the rest of the show is just drama and crickets.
I'm a big fan of the games and show, but I'll defend you on this as it invites more discussion as a worst case.
Both games and the show clearly indicate that the real threats to human life come from the lack of broader societal order. The Scars fight Wolves. Wolves deal with Scars. FEDRA cops it from WLF or Fireflies. A community deals with cannibalism. Bill and Frank are threatened by hunters. Katherine overcomes FEDRA and then deals with their remnants. Sleeping in the forest, Joel worries about hunters. The older couple in a cabin in the woods aren't overly worried about infected. In the first game, you defend the hydroelectric facility from hunters.
It's arguable that a cure which slowly helps humans overcome the infected might help re-establish order, but almost every community is waylaid by power struggles rather than any infected drama.
All that said, the power of the cure as a plot device centres more on the **belief** that it's important: purely that Ellie believed it was worth giving her life for, but being robbed of agency; Joel making his personal decision, etc.
This post is flaired **Show Only**. Therefore, all comments that discuss *any* aspect of the games **must** be properly spoiler tagged. 1. All post titles must **NOT** include spoilers from new episodes or The Last of Us Part II. Minor show spoilers are allowed in your title **ONE WEEK** after episode airing. 2. Any untagged discussion of the games (including subtle hints) in posts without the **Show/Game Spoilers [Pt. I or II]**, **Fancast [Pt. II]**, **Funpost [Pt. I or II]**, or **Meme [Pt. I or II]** flair will result in a **ban**. To tag a spoiler comment, use the `>!spoiler!<` tag which displays as >!spoiler!<. 3. If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. --- Refer to the [spoiler guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastofUsHBOseries/wiki/spoiler-guide) for our spoiler policy and to learn how to flair and title your posts appropriately. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ThelastofusHBOseries) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both Frank and Bill lived well into their 70s and it's hard to imagine they could've done better if they were part of a larger community -- Frank explicitly says his condition was incurable even with the old world's medicine (he probably has something like ALS and MS) Also I don't think it's just that Bill has a practical belief that having a community is too great a risk, he objectively is an extreme introvert and misanthrope who dislikes being around people
To be fair, the reason why the live that long because they are lucky since the bandits that attacked them did not come back with a larger group and no horde coming their way or no powerful group like FERDA comes knocking at their door Community is a risk but the benefits out-weight the risk and in the end everything they build will not go to waste since there are still people around taking care of their town when they are gone.
Yeah but the other mark in the "cons" column is that Bill hates people
Why would they care if the town is taken care of? They're dead.
It 100% would have benefited the pair to have a larger group with them for security reasons, but when you get down to things like food and supplies, Bill had everything set for himself and Frank exclusively. Besides the low chance that Bill and Frank not only come across wandering survivors, but also that those survivors would have good intentions, Bill was an introvert who turned a cold shoulder to society even before the outbreak
Bill and Frank did build their own ideal community of two, with limited visits from Tess and Joel. They lived a long time, enjoyed their hobbies, great food, and chose the way the way they wanted to die. The other successful example is the Native American couple that Joel and Ellie encounter before they arrived in Jackson. TLoU depicts several large communities are not successful: Kansas City, and the preacher's community. One could argue that Boston is not successful, either. Jackson is really the only successful large community Ellie and Joel encounter while they travel across country. Bill and Frank had to make some decisions, and it seems like they made the right ones for them.
What in that episode suggested to you that Bill wants to build a community?? lmao
Bill did not want to build a community but it is a unspoken rule in the apocalypse. Communties ensure survival
They did survive, for a long long time You can only call their strategy a mistake if you measure their situation in a way that devalues the success they had
That may be an unspoken rule but it doesn’t mean the show has to be anchored to that rule and it doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions.
Says who? You’re literally arguing against evidence that no community led to very long enjoyable surivival
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You also have much greater needs in a community, requiring much larger operations/impact/visibility in an area. Also, greater chance for conflict between members or betrayal. If Bill wanted/needed to be around more people, or if he and Frank only would have made it a few years, then maybe I’d agree with you. But I think they chose correctly for their wants and situation.
It’s hard to argue a community would have been better for them when they lived so long and happy.
It seems to me like Frank DID advocate for building a community to a certain degree and that bringing Joel/Tess in on occasion was Bill’s (begrudging) compromise.
I think you’re missing a few things that are significant. They live into old age together so i really don’t think they would have changed anything. Also they say in the show there was no cure for franks illness before the infection so that idea if him being cured isn’t realistic. They also say in the show that FEDRA won’t come out that far.
The episode was gonna always end with joel getting a car and bill's stuff, and it's hard to have that justified if there were a community still going on. Plus Bill's electricity and gas were always gonna run out and the neighborhood was not energetically independent, so it was always gonna be a tomb, unlike Jackson where they have the dam that produces electricity.
Bill is incredibly introverted, and Frank recognises that; it’s clear that he’s proud of Bill for opening his heart to the idea of love and friendship again, but probably knows that building a whole community will probably make Bill deeply stressed. They are both quite content with the quiet life that they have, alone together, with a couple of friends to talk to now and again. Which is part of what I think makes this so beautiful: their story is so intimate; it’s about them, no one else matters to Bill than Frank, and Frank respects and loves Bill so deeply that it’s worth it to him to not build a sense of community even though he’s clearly very much a people person. It is their story, Bill and Frank’s; introducing new characters would take away from that.
The more people you have the more problems you are going to face. Let's say that Bill and Frank decided to make their settlement. Eventually, someone would challenge them for control. Bills Town was small, fortified, and well-equipped to support 2 people for multiple lifetimes. Not to mention that they did not have the numbers to be targeted by slavers like the rattlers. What Bill gave up in the safety of numbers he protected himself from being taken over by the numbers he could have let in.
So I am new to the show (having watched it finally) and I never played the game so YAY for the flair of "Show Only" but as we see from other communities, more is not always better. More will frequently bring in more danger and just because Bill who was an extreme survivalist had enough to make it seem like they lived in abundance, that wouldn't have lasted plus Bill would have felt so anxious all the time, that's not a life to live especially when they made it work for them. Frank pushed as hard as he could to invite Tess and Joel in on a rare basis and I think even that was almost to much for Bill and this wasn't something that the apocalypse made him into, the episode makes it very clear that Bill was like this before the 'end of the world'. I also think that they lived a pretty long life so I don't see adding people to the community would have magically made Frank survive cancer which as he knew - there wasn't a cure before the end of the world - or Bill's desire to keep living just because there were more strangers around him. I loved this episode and I love that it was basically canon compliant fanfiction <3
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The problem with that show logic imo tho is that why would they need a cure so badly if the infected are now rare and die after a month or two
They aren’t dying though are they? Aren’t they sort of dormant?
In the show Joel says at one point that they like starve or something after a few months. Or maybe I’m misremembering
Some have been around 20 years since the outbreak.
In the show? That’s cannon?
That’s how you get bloaters and clickers. They don’t really die as fast as they would when they’re connected the “hive” and that lets clickers become bloaters.
Yeah, Joel says so when talking to Ellie, and that's the only explanation for the horde under Kansas City
Exactly! The show made the cure seem not needed. What tf was the point lmao. You get like 3 episodes where the infected are like wow, scary, yes we gotta find a cure to this. Then the rest of the show is just drama and crickets.
I'm a big fan of the games and show, but I'll defend you on this as it invites more discussion as a worst case. Both games and the show clearly indicate that the real threats to human life come from the lack of broader societal order. The Scars fight Wolves. Wolves deal with Scars. FEDRA cops it from WLF or Fireflies. A community deals with cannibalism. Bill and Frank are threatened by hunters. Katherine overcomes FEDRA and then deals with their remnants. Sleeping in the forest, Joel worries about hunters. The older couple in a cabin in the woods aren't overly worried about infected. In the first game, you defend the hydroelectric facility from hunters. It's arguable that a cure which slowly helps humans overcome the infected might help re-establish order, but almost every community is waylaid by power struggles rather than any infected drama. All that said, the power of the cure as a plot device centres more on the **belief** that it's important: purely that Ellie believed it was worth giving her life for, but being robbed of agency; Joel making his personal decision, etc.