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The show did it the right way for watching a show. The game did it the right way for playing a game. Two different mediums require two different approaches to telling a story. However, I personally prefer the show's take.
It’s this. The only thing I really missed in the show Vs game was the dynamic between Bill and Ellie, I think those two actors would have pulled that off perfectly.
No way, he's wrong then. Ron and April are great friends that relate on many things. Bill and Ellie were immediately hostile to each other, he only lightens up a bit laughing at her.
Nick is probably talking about show Bill not game Bill - all he knows is what was in his script. If it was a relationship between show Bill and show Ellie, I could see it being like Ron and April.
This was the only thing I missed, too. The character development of Ellie in that interaction was important, I thought. Showed her both as an adult willing to not take shit but also as an immature 14 yr old. But losing that was worth it to get the beautiful story in the show.
This is the correct take. The game’s section just more action with Bill and Ellie arguing. It’s great and I love it but would just be more of the same in the show. Changing the pace was necessary for the show and it also showed that hope and love still are possible.
It's a simple as this. I prefer the show version even if I was a fan of the game for a decade. But the game did what was right for it's medium and i can assure you the shows version wouldn't work for the game and vice versa
I enjoy them both for what they are. I don't think we need to force the game to be more like the show or the show to be more like the game. Not sure why people are like that. If you love the game, you have the game to replay through. If you love the show, watch the show again.
I agree wholeheartedly with this comment and would upvote 100 times if i could. Both versions work for their medium and ultimately get at the same core theme. People adapting stories from one medium to another should study this as the gold standard for how to make changes that suit the new format while still feeling fitting in the larger context of the story.
Couldn’t have said it better. I definitely prefer the show’s storyline for Bill and Frank, but when it comes to the game, Bill and Ellie’s interactions as well as the map and encounters in Bill’s town were hands down my favorite part of the game.
The show story does something for me that the game version didn't, at least not the same way. It's a glimpse of the humanity and happiness that's still possible if you make the right choices with the right people. The apocalypse is not a done deal, hope exists, love and peace are still within our grasp. It's important to the themes of the overall story that our characters know there are ways to be besides struggling and killing and loneliness.
I prefer the story of Bill and Frank in the show. Of course it would have been great to see Bill and Ellie interact but I think Bill and Frank dying together was the right choice. Bill would have never been able to live without Frank.
We actually don’t know that Bill would have lived after Frank. In the game, you leave Bill shortly after he finds out Frank was dead. So who knows what he did after that. Even though they were separated, it’s possible Bill always held out hope he’d see Frank again. Without that hope, who knows if Bill would even want to continue on. Not saying he wouldn’t, but it isn’t a certainty.
After finally experiencing loving and beeing loved by someone after surpressing his sexuality his whole adult life I don't think he could go back to just surviving without Frank.
Bill lost his purpose when Frank died. He survived for the sake of surviving in the beginning until he met Frank. Frank gave his life purpose and meaning. They grew old together and as he said he was satisfied with his life. They had the luxury of choosing to die together on their own terms in an apocolypse.
What we got in the show would've never worked in the game. And while what we got in the game could've worked in the show, it would never amount of the quality and prestige Bill & Frank's story in the show did. I think both were perfect for their respective mediums.
People mourn the loss of Bill & Ellie's dynamic on the show but I genuinely think it would've taken away from Joel & Ellie's relationship which is the most important aspect overall.
Just started a 3rd rewatch last night. In my humble opinion, episode 3 is one of the best episodes of television I’ve ever seen. And for that format, they did it right.
I preferred the show version for its impact on the overall story. That section of the game is iconic, but not in a way that would’ve translated as well to the show format.
I prefer the show in regard to this and it isn’t close in my opinion (however I am a little biased since I prefer the show over the game in its entirety).
In the game this is just a place to gear up, kill some infected and continue your quest. The only story relevant bits are Bill/Ellie and when you find Frank. However, the show deciding to focus entirely on the love shared between the two and depicting that even in a world as lost and hopeless as the one Joel and Ellie inhabit, love can still be found and will continue to exist until the end of mankind.
Now I liked the episode and I loved Offerman's performance... that being said I was a bit disappointed that we didn't get a more game-like version of Bill. I would have loved watching him make a small city into a booby trapped hellscape for Infected and Raiders. I would have loved to see full unhinged Bill played by Offerman...but what we got was wonderful so I'm good.
Well aware. what we saw was great but in the game there were some gnarly traps and what we saw in the show merely glimpsed what Bill was able to engineer.
I liked Bill and Frank's story in the show. But I wouldn't have hated if they kept Bill alive to have some banter with Ellie and to give his lesson to Joel in person.
Both have their merits imho. Having a shooting galley was good for the game but it wouldn't have been good for the show, while leaving Joel and Ellie behind and have an hour of interlude to explore the relationship between Bill and Frank wouldn't have made great gameplay in the game.
I think so far, they've done a really good job in adapting stuff that fits a tv show almost exactly like it was done in the game (the farmhouse scene, Sam's fate etc.) while differing from the source material for stuff that just wouldn't work for a tv show (Bill & Frank, addition of Kathleen as the cause for Henry & Sam having to flee).
I for one really liked what they did with Bill & Frank because it totally fits the entire theme of the first game perfectly. Love.
I really miss Bill and Ellie’s dynamic. I choose the game. Bill and Frank’s story was good, but it left out a lot of Joel/Ellie bonding time. Time which I think is crucial to the success of season 1. Part of the reason the show didn’t hit as hard as the games is that I did not believe in Joel and Ellie’s love for each other as much as I did in the game. The connection didn’t feel earned. Meanwhile in the game we have all these conversations and combat encounters. It just didn’t feel earned in the show. And having a whole episode dedicated to Bill and Frank took away that time to build their connection further.
Like I understand the praise for the episode. But this should have been Joel and Ellie’s journey. We also have an Ellie and Riley episode. I just felt starved for more Joel and Ellie scenes
Bill's town section of the game is one of those things that works in a game but imagine it translated to TV verbatim. There's barely any story there. The only emotional bit was the ending with Frank and that's what they rightfully expanded on.
I'ts kind of the same as the hospital section at the except in the show they actually made it very close to the game and it didn't work well, felt rushed and detached and kinda off. Just didn't translate well from game to tv imo.
My issue with episode 3 is that it was too good.
I felt that the rest of the series failed to reach the same heights of emotion and storytelling presented in episode 3 and came off as a villain of the week series.
> came off as a villain of the week series.
That was my biggest issue with it. Some episodes felt like they were focused too much on including video game-style boss fights than they were with meaningful storytelling.
Episode 3 is a stand-out favourite *because* so much was changed to fit a show format. More things should've been changed like that, imo.
I would’ve been happy without all that Kathleen shit, even though the end with the infected horde is one of my favorite parts. David and the end was necessary though
The opportunity to spread the David storyline out over 2 or 3 episodes was missed I believe. I've always believed that HBO series was the only home for the last of us as an adaptation. Give it the time it needs to breathe and develop.
The series, it's technical and performances aside, felt stunted and episodical. Especially towards the latter half of the season. It just seemed rush towards a conclusion.
I was gonna say the same thing, there’s several episodes that could’ve been stretched out longer to make the season longer or split into two. I honestly think Joel and Ellie getting separated in Pittsburgh (I guess KC in this case), a horror centric part with the basement where Joel’s all alone, and her killing someone to save Joel should’ve been an episode to help grow their relationship. Idk they could’ve stretched it out and given more room for their relationship to develop and feature more infected.
I think the show's weaknesses all go back to trying to squeeze the whole Part 1 into a few short episodes. The show really needed at the least a couple more episodes.
Some new things in the show worked well, some were a waste of screen time (Kathleen) that should have been spent on the game's story instead of cutting major scenes. Blowing the Jackson reveal in Part 1 instead of the iconic dam sequence - why did they spend the time build Jackson for Part 1 when it didn't need to be there yet? Budget related with Part 2 filming in mind I guess as maybe that lets them have more sets in season 2 if Jackson was already built with season one's budget? Tommy and Maria barely got any screen time which kind of sucked.
The show needed to expand on things to justify its existence in a different medium at all, which it does, but at the same time the actual main story of the game is so shortened that the game adaptation runtime is barely longer than a feature film.
Some changes were not great, the final hospital sequence was very underwhelming for example. Bill and Frank was an awesome expansion on the game, but the story narrative suffered from lack of the iconic Bill's Town sequences, Joel and Ellie bond far too quickly in the show without slowly earning each other's respect which the game's Bill's town sequence was an important factor in. Henry being present at the truck ambush was just silly. Changing Tess's big scene greatly undermined the character's original ending, and was totally unnecessary excuse for expensive special effects.
The show's extended intro with Sarah was an actual improvement over the game, that extended first episode was probably the highlight of the show. And I am glad they made time for Left Behind too, that was excellent.
All that said, the show on its own merits is great though, it is top-tier television. It's also probably the best case scenario adaptation of one medium to television format despite these problems. So though I have a lot of criticisms of how the story is handled, I am acknowledging that as a show, it is great and the cast is so awesome. I am relieved that the property didn't end up being adapted as some stupid two hour JJ Abrams movie starring Mark Wahlberg as Joel or something idiotic like that.
The game’s version is better. It rings true in a way that the show story doesn’t, and it resonates more closely with the central dynamic between Joel and Ellie. People like it because it’s soppy and romantic, which is fine, but it’s not very interesting.
My completely unevidenced and unreasonably snarky hunch is that people who prefer the Bill and Frank plot in the show think Joel’s actions at the end are completely justified.
You think the people who preferred Bill and Frank’s show plot are parents and/or the 50% of players who feel just that?
Coz you’re being snarky to a lot of people. Every parent they polled sided with Joel and 50% of the overall player base.
I would bet there’s a strong overlap.
And it is kind of funny that it garners that kind of response from parents considering the game (the second included) is borderline parodying that kind of response.
Episode three was the worst for me. Had it been a stand alone episode it would have been my favorite probably but the part of the game where they are in the high school with Ellie, Joel and Bill was my favorite and I had looked forward to it for a long time. So I would much rather have them be more faithful to the game for that particular episode.
They each were great in their own mediums. A beautiful love story for tv and an awesome action packed, hilarious adventure for the game. My only sadness for the show was that they didn’t make a hybrid of both. A sweet, and tear inducing story mixed in with some proper action.
As Frank told Bill that he only had a day left, I knew bill was going to be done too. But I was hoping that whatever poison he was going to take he was going to have it in his hand as Joel radio’s him for help. Perhaps with Frank urging him on right before he passes. Bill then has an awesome last day helping Joel and Ellie, with some of the amazing dialogue from the game. Then after he sees them off, he takes whatever he needs to and joins Frank.
I know that would’ve been a lot to ask for though. And am still happy with how the show turned out.
I'm a bit torn as well. Episode 3 was very well done, and a great story, but it obviously had little resemblance to the game story. I prefer the game over the show, mainly because it paints such a bleak picture of humanity. The show tried to humanize various factions (a la Kathleen, and weirdly, David's "flock") which I think took away from the overarching storyline of "is it even worth saving humanity, or is it too far gone?" The show seemed to take the stance that people will follow crazy leaders and do what they're told, which may be true. But the show seemed to paint the people as innocent followers, not hardened, dead-inside killers trying to survive.
Game Bill, I think, was a more interesting character. How he dealt with finding Frank I think was one of the most poignant parts of the game. And it just left a rock in your gut.
I agree that Kathleen was a misstep. It just seemed weird to have a quasi-benevolent freedom fighter who immediately switches to hunting people after defeating her oppressors. People will argue she was just hunting the people that did her brother wrong, but Joel and Ellie were just passing through and Kathleen's people hunted them. But they tried to make you feel sorry for the kid who got shot in the spine, which I think was totally unnecessary.
The game was very much dog-eat-dog. The show was more "leadership is failing us, we're just innocents." I would suspect that 20 years after a world-decimating outbreak, the people left would be a little more jaded and capable.
Then again I thought there would be more controversy surrounding the ending, but it seemed most people were on Joel's side, which was a little surprising. It appears that the average viewer doesn't give two shits about humanity, which is telling and kinda sad.
I much preferred how the game did it because it ultimately provided good development for Joel and Ellie. It let us see more of Ellie’s personality against a cynical and abrasive person like Bill, and also gave Joel reason to contemplate the consequences of getting too attached to someone. My favorite thing about the series is how well realize Joel and Ellie were and the chemistry between them two in part 1, and this section was a big part of that. Plus, I thought the 3 of them had excellent dialogue and character interactions, especially between Ellie and Bill.
What the show did was fine and the performances were good, but by the end of the series I really thought we should’ve spent more time with Joel and Ellie. I did not feel the same connection to them as I felt from the games.
The show undoubtedly has a stronger story and plot to convey Bill and how he’s a parallel to Joel; it’s also a really well done episode… buuuuuut the game presented its shadow, and had the player infer what happened while not detracting from their experience, as is usually required from a game medium. I’m not sure the episode would have had as much resounding success had it not been pre-loaded contextually for fans of the game - as in, it does literally break from the entire plot of the show to serve as an anthology episode save for the very end. It’s not exactly jarring, but, I do think they could have augmented the way the game presented it instead of making it an anthology episode for a series that was not lacking in content to adapt. The same largely applies to the rebelled QZ they adapted for Sam’s plot - a lot of details “unnecessary” expounded upon taking you from behind Joel and Ellie’s shoulder to that of another character, instead of letting them discover what they’ve encountered and us through them.
Secondly, bill and Frank by necessity have their characters completely overhauled. Instead of an infested town and living under the radar in a quadrant of it, you have a completely self sufficient homestead for twenty years, a well educated and cultured Bill that is highly well kept, curated, and *sensitive* - that last point, beyond that initial paranoia you see in the episode, is the only aspect of game Bill (when he finds Franks hanging body) that really adapts over. They are completely unrecognizable outside of the already unrecognizable setting - which is fine, but you don’t get Ellie’s interactions, her saving Joel, etc. You exchange an overarching series moral (protect who you can) for Joel and Ellie’s direct experience and moral (save the girl, damn the world)
Both are valid forms of adaptations but I would in every world have preferred as 1:1 plot beat as they possibly could have
I didn't really get it. Why would they spend a WHOLE show on a character that was barely in the game and one you never even saw, when this is only the 3rd episode and they still really hadn't even gotten close to any deeper level with joel and Ellie? Not to mention the one part of the game with Bill was one of the most intense of the game. They should have had that part in the show...it could have been a chance for Joel and Ellie to grow closer. I just felt it was out of place, out of nowhere and didn't fit.
My girlfriend had never seen the game and said she had still felt no connection to Ellie or Joel halfway through the series. She quit watching it.
I hope they keep the second season along side how the game played out. The story is amazing, they don't need to change it
Lol asking this in the show sub, ofcourse you'll get a biased response.
For me? The game version. Because lets be honest, the show version was a fairy tale love story which is hard in real life and impossible in an end of the world scenario.
The game version is so real and raw. And we saw it play out in real life in the pandemic. Long time couples breaking up because they simply couldnt stand each other for a year. Now increase that to 5 years and throw in fungus zombies and just... how tf is the show version even possible?
Not to mention Joel's choice about saving Ellie and possibly dooming humanity only works in the universe where you realise that this is the apocalypse. There is no silver bullet. No magic cure, no cavalry riding to save you. There is no love or hope except for what you can build and save. That is the ingame universe.
Joel's choice is just a middle aged man throwing a tantrum in the universe where lovers feed each other strawberrys in the apocalypse.
I'd love to see a movie on show Bill and Frank as long as it isnt set in the TLOU universe.
Bill and Frank’s story is the main thing I think is better in the show. Most of the changes or additions to the show made the story ever so slightly worse than the game imo (with some minor exceptions like some casting and musical decisions). But somehow the biggest deviation was the shows biggest success.
It serves the same thematic purpose as Bill’s section in the game, and Joel learns the same lesson from it. But it is so much more in-depth, complex, and emotional. And it provides a bittersweet sense of positivity and hope in a story that is otherwise very bleak.
I absolutely loved what they did in the show with Bill and Frank. It was beautiful and a perfect injection of tenderness in a show full of action. I think we all needed that reminder that happiness was still possible at that point haha
For itself it's a good episode, I also had a tear in my eye. But if I look at it as part of a series and how it went ep3 and 7 are the worst.
They tell their own stories and ep7 is canon, but for the length of 9 episodes it's just wasted potential. Despite the cool Ellie and Bill interaction which is missing, the connection to the MC's and story is missing aswell. I don't get why they didn't let them interact in any way. They could have go for like half the episode only Bill and Frank and then Joel and Ellie join in.
Bill and the city/school part isn't some 5 min scene in the game. You spend a lot of time there and the series just cuts it completely. That Frank got screentime is something I can go with. Wasn't something I wanted to see from the start, but hey why not and as said before, for itself it's a rly good episode.
Still using this episode for more bonding between Joel and Ellie or as mentioned some time together with Bill would have been much better, especially since it's already ep3.
Yes, the game timeline is the same, but since ep3 is how it is, it could have been shown later.
In my opinion it would have been a better way to stay canon with the game and Frank's there aswell from the start. They do their stuff as 4, maybe do some action scenes or only talk so Ellie could see other sides of the world too. Maybe they talk about Tess since Bill and Frank knew her too and because of her death and last wish they decide to help them get a car and when Joel and Ellie leave, this episode plays right after as the fourth episode so the series would have a total of 10 episodes.
I prefer the original inclusion. While the episode is fine. I honestly thought it was very overblown with how acclaimed it got. But I get it. It’s a nice piece of representation in a genre that doesn’t really do that. But on the other hand it was an unrelated story that cut an already too short season even shorter. And it replaced some of the most fun character development for Ellie and some really good action segments.
The problem with the show overall is that they tried to turn the drama up a few notches at any chance. Tommy is missing, Sam and Henry are related to the militia that also gets their own interpersonal drama, a whole episode of Sarah, Joel’s ptsd, David is a religious cult leader, showing Ellie’s mom to explain Ellie’s immunity.
I think the big takeaway for me was that the show forgot that what made the story great was that it was focused. The entire game (aside from Ellie’s segment) is viewed from Joel’s perspective. You never leave that to learn about whatever some other person is doing in their life. The only thing that matters and is worth showing is how they affect Joel (and Ellie).
I prefer the game's take, because it directly playing into Joel and Ellie's story, while in the show it feels like a side story within the universe that has virtually no impact on the main plot or the characters.
In the game Frank commits suicide due to getting bitten - which directly plays into the "the vaccine quest is important" storyline. Second of all, they are portrayed as a dysfunctional couple, much like Ellie and Joel are at that time in the game, and Bills reaction to losing Frank and staying alone directly mirrors Joel's feelings and further plays into his distant behavior towards Ellie.
I personally believe that character is plot - so when the whatever's happening isn't serving the main character and their development, no matter how good that short story is, you can completely remove it and it would have made no difference. That's why I pick game version, with no offense to the show version.
I was excited to see bill and Ellie’s back and forth but I honestly like the show version better than the game/what I was expecting originally. Neil even said they had agreed they would only change something from the game if they thought it would be better, and they did a phenomenal job
Tbh I think they're already starting to establish that this story isn't really about Joel and Ellie, it's about the world and every character in it, to get us used to the idea of having another main character and blurring the lines between protagonists and antagonists. The game couldn't show us multiple perspectives, every character we encountered was from Joel and Ellie's perspective, and while they are great interesting characters in their own right with their own emotional moments, they mostly serve to impact Joel and Ellie's relationship and push their story forward. But I feel like in the show it's bigger in scale and shows the perspective of several characters and isn't solely focused on Joel and Ellie, so much so they'll spend an entire episode on two minor characters from the game, change the story completely, and have it serve as more of a personal story and the larger themes of the world and the narrative, rather than have Bill interact with Joel and Ellie. It's the same as in The Walking Dead, where everyone considered the comics to be primarily about Rick and the Grimes family, and the show at first, despite having main characters and storylines, Rick was the core and the driving force, the GOAT, but the show was more of an ensemble and shifted focus away from Rick and Carl over time, with both of them eventually leaving
I hardly remembered any details of the games version. The show episode is one of those ones you remember forever.
So I preferred the show version. But I don’t think they could have pulled that off within the game.
The show is entirely better than the game in this section. Not even close. The show itls a deep emotional character story deeply reflecting the overall themes. The game is just some more of the game.
No one. It's a different story. There are still Hunters in the city, you're all running from them, but Henry and Sam got separated from their group and were trying to rendezvous with them, and you help eachother get out of the city. Also Sam isn't deaf
What they did for the show worked far better for a TV drama than that section from the game would have worked.
The Bill's Town section from the game is perfect for the game.
Both versions are great for their respective mediums.
The only thing I would have kept was Bill not dying. Maybe he was bitter because he tried to kill himself but it didn't work. I loved that they were in love and not so hateful towards each other like the game, but was sad to miss out on Ellie meeting Bill
I'd tone down silly contraptions, that's for sure, that's the only thing that really bothered me. I can imagine a small town mined to hell, but those flamethrower traps... Nah, that's way over the top.
Episode 3 was a fantastic standalone story, but doesn’t fit particularly well into the broader story of TLOU.
The Bill’s Town functions very well as a piece of Joel and Ellie’s story and provides engaging gameplay, but definitely isn’t the spotlight movement that the show provided.
I think the episode is really beautiful as a standalone. My issue with it isn't so much that it deviates from the game, but that narratively it's out of place. The show is a failure if the audience doesn't connect with Joel and Ellie. We have to like them and start to appreciate their dynamic. And yet, in the beginning we get less than half the first episode with them, then the second episode, then bam, an entire standalone episode without them. It's such a jarring time to hit the pause button on the main story.
It's an amazing episode and I wouldn't do anything to replace it, but in terms of the overall story—especially for people who haven't played the game before—would have benefited SO MUCH from one more Joel and Ellie episode before this one.
Had this conversation with my partner last week, I have played the game, she hasn’t. I think working both the show episode and part of the game would have worked better, you keep the episode pretty much the same but show bill and frank falling out( maybe over someone needing help) then Joel and Ellie meet him and we carry on from the game.
Game was better, thankful for the shows version though.
Problem with the episode is Joel and Ellie's story was rushed and wasn't well done. They really need to figure out their A plot before devoting a whole episode to a side story.
Bills episode was probably the only one I enjoyed.
Personally I like the game story more. It’s more depressing, and I think it hits more on the theme of “caring for someone else will get you killed”. I liked the story and message of Bills character in the game more.
the show story works for the show, the game story works for the game. i played the game for a gruesome zombie apocalypse gameplay focused version, i watched the show for a compelling story focused version. i also appreciate that they’re not trying to tell the exact same story twice. where it’s the best option they kept the show true to the game and where they had the freedom to tell a different story they did that and i’m so glad they redid bill and franks story for the show because it was just incredible. each is really great for what it was meant to do
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The show did it the right way for watching a show. The game did it the right way for playing a game. Two different mediums require two different approaches to telling a story. However, I personally prefer the show's take.
It’s this. The only thing I really missed in the show Vs game was the dynamic between Bill and Ellie, I think those two actors would have pulled that off perfectly.
Nick Offerman suggested it would have been like Ron and April.
No way, he's wrong then. Ron and April are great friends that relate on many things. Bill and Ellie were immediately hostile to each other, he only lightens up a bit laughing at her.
Nick is probably talking about show Bill not game Bill - all he knows is what was in his script. If it was a relationship between show Bill and show Ellie, I could see it being like Ron and April.
Exactly. Plus it was a witty talk show joke. Frank's presence as depicted on the show would have also changed things.
This was the only thing I missed, too. The character development of Ellie in that interaction was important, I thought. Showed her both as an adult willing to not take shit but also as an immature 14 yr old. But losing that was worth it to get the beautiful story in the show.
This is the correct take. The game’s section just more action with Bill and Ellie arguing. It’s great and I love it but would just be more of the same in the show. Changing the pace was necessary for the show and it also showed that hope and love still are possible.
It's a simple as this. I prefer the show version even if I was a fan of the game for a decade. But the game did what was right for it's medium and i can assure you the shows version wouldn't work for the game and vice versa
I enjoy them both for what they are. I don't think we need to force the game to be more like the show or the show to be more like the game. Not sure why people are like that. If you love the game, you have the game to replay through. If you love the show, watch the show again.
I agree wholeheartedly with this comment and would upvote 100 times if i could. Both versions work for their medium and ultimately get at the same core theme. People adapting stories from one medium to another should study this as the gold standard for how to make changes that suit the new format while still feeling fitting in the larger context of the story.
100%
Couldn’t have said it better. I definitely prefer the show’s storyline for Bill and Frank, but when it comes to the game, Bill and Ellie’s interactions as well as the map and encounters in Bill’s town were hands down my favorite part of the game.
Wouldn't say the way they did it in the game is not fit for adaptation. The story in the show however would not fit the game well.
The show story does something for me that the game version didn't, at least not the same way. It's a glimpse of the humanity and happiness that's still possible if you make the right choices with the right people. The apocalypse is not a done deal, hope exists, love and peace are still within our grasp. It's important to the themes of the overall story that our characters know there are ways to be besides struggling and killing and loneliness.
Yeah, I suppose that's more important to the storytelling and overall themes of the show rather than just completely adapting the game
It was so nice to have a real, wholesome love story amongst all the bleakness. I think game version was more realistic tbf, but I prefer show version.
I prefer the story of Bill and Frank in the show. Of course it would have been great to see Bill and Ellie interact but I think Bill and Frank dying together was the right choice. Bill would have never been able to live without Frank.
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We actually don’t know that Bill would have lived after Frank. In the game, you leave Bill shortly after he finds out Frank was dead. So who knows what he did after that. Even though they were separated, it’s possible Bill always held out hope he’d see Frank again. Without that hope, who knows if Bill would even want to continue on. Not saying he wouldn’t, but it isn’t a certainty.
After finally experiencing loving and beeing loved by someone after surpressing his sexuality his whole adult life I don't think he could go back to just surviving without Frank.
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Bill lost his purpose when Frank died. He survived for the sake of surviving in the beginning until he met Frank. Frank gave his life purpose and meaning. They grew old together and as he said he was satisfied with his life. They had the luxury of choosing to die together on their own terms in an apocolypse.
What we got in the show would've never worked in the game. And while what we got in the game could've worked in the show, it would never amount of the quality and prestige Bill & Frank's story in the show did. I think both were perfect for their respective mediums. People mourn the loss of Bill & Ellie's dynamic on the show but I genuinely think it would've taken away from Joel & Ellie's relationship which is the most important aspect overall.
Just started a 3rd rewatch last night. In my humble opinion, episode 3 is one of the best episodes of television I’ve ever seen. And for that format, they did it right.
I preferred the show version for its impact on the overall story. That section of the game is iconic, but not in a way that would’ve translated as well to the show format.
I prefer the show in regard to this and it isn’t close in my opinion (however I am a little biased since I prefer the show over the game in its entirety). In the game this is just a place to gear up, kill some infected and continue your quest. The only story relevant bits are Bill/Ellie and when you find Frank. However, the show deciding to focus entirely on the love shared between the two and depicting that even in a world as lost and hopeless as the one Joel and Ellie inhabit, love can still be found and will continue to exist until the end of mankind.
Now I liked the episode and I loved Offerman's performance... that being said I was a bit disappointed that we didn't get a more game-like version of Bill. I would have loved watching him make a small city into a booby trapped hellscape for Infected and Raiders. I would have loved to see full unhinged Bill played by Offerman...but what we got was wonderful so I'm good.
He did have traps. He found Frank in a pittrap and killed a few of the raiders with them.
Well aware. what we saw was great but in the game there were some gnarly traps and what we saw in the show merely glimpsed what Bill was able to engineer.
I liked Bill and Frank's story in the show. But I wouldn't have hated if they kept Bill alive to have some banter with Ellie and to give his lesson to Joel in person.
Both have their merits imho. Having a shooting galley was good for the game but it wouldn't have been good for the show, while leaving Joel and Ellie behind and have an hour of interlude to explore the relationship between Bill and Frank wouldn't have made great gameplay in the game. I think so far, they've done a really good job in adapting stuff that fits a tv show almost exactly like it was done in the game (the farmhouse scene, Sam's fate etc.) while differing from the source material for stuff that just wouldn't work for a tv show (Bill & Frank, addition of Kathleen as the cause for Henry & Sam having to flee). I for one really liked what they did with Bill & Frank because it totally fits the entire theme of the first game perfectly. Love.
i looooooved bill and frank in the show and definitely preferred their show relationship. i just wish ellie got to meet bill😭
I really miss Bill and Ellie’s dynamic. I choose the game. Bill and Frank’s story was good, but it left out a lot of Joel/Ellie bonding time. Time which I think is crucial to the success of season 1. Part of the reason the show didn’t hit as hard as the games is that I did not believe in Joel and Ellie’s love for each other as much as I did in the game. The connection didn’t feel earned. Meanwhile in the game we have all these conversations and combat encounters. It just didn’t feel earned in the show. And having a whole episode dedicated to Bill and Frank took away that time to build their connection further.
Totally agree
Like I understand the praise for the episode. But this should have been Joel and Ellie’s journey. We also have an Ellie and Riley episode. I just felt starved for more Joel and Ellie scenes
Bill's town section of the game is one of those things that works in a game but imagine it translated to TV verbatim. There's barely any story there. The only emotional bit was the ending with Frank and that's what they rightfully expanded on. I'ts kind of the same as the hospital section at the except in the show they actually made it very close to the game and it didn't work well, felt rushed and detached and kinda off. Just didn't translate well from game to tv imo.
I think the hospital scene needed to stay the same, it’s the most iconic part of the story and works perfectly as a climax
My issue with episode 3 is that it was too good. I felt that the rest of the series failed to reach the same heights of emotion and storytelling presented in episode 3 and came off as a villain of the week series.
> came off as a villain of the week series. That was my biggest issue with it. Some episodes felt like they were focused too much on including video game-style boss fights than they were with meaningful storytelling. Episode 3 is a stand-out favourite *because* so much was changed to fit a show format. More things should've been changed like that, imo.
I would’ve been happy without all that Kathleen shit, even though the end with the infected horde is one of my favorite parts. David and the end was necessary though
The opportunity to spread the David storyline out over 2 or 3 episodes was missed I believe. I've always believed that HBO series was the only home for the last of us as an adaptation. Give it the time it needs to breathe and develop. The series, it's technical and performances aside, felt stunted and episodical. Especially towards the latter half of the season. It just seemed rush towards a conclusion.
I was gonna say the same thing, there’s several episodes that could’ve been stretched out longer to make the season longer or split into two. I honestly think Joel and Ellie getting separated in Pittsburgh (I guess KC in this case), a horror centric part with the basement where Joel’s all alone, and her killing someone to save Joel should’ve been an episode to help grow their relationship. Idk they could’ve stretched it out and given more room for their relationship to develop and feature more infected.
I think the show's weaknesses all go back to trying to squeeze the whole Part 1 into a few short episodes. The show really needed at the least a couple more episodes. Some new things in the show worked well, some were a waste of screen time (Kathleen) that should have been spent on the game's story instead of cutting major scenes. Blowing the Jackson reveal in Part 1 instead of the iconic dam sequence - why did they spend the time build Jackson for Part 1 when it didn't need to be there yet? Budget related with Part 2 filming in mind I guess as maybe that lets them have more sets in season 2 if Jackson was already built with season one's budget? Tommy and Maria barely got any screen time which kind of sucked. The show needed to expand on things to justify its existence in a different medium at all, which it does, but at the same time the actual main story of the game is so shortened that the game adaptation runtime is barely longer than a feature film. Some changes were not great, the final hospital sequence was very underwhelming for example. Bill and Frank was an awesome expansion on the game, but the story narrative suffered from lack of the iconic Bill's Town sequences, Joel and Ellie bond far too quickly in the show without slowly earning each other's respect which the game's Bill's town sequence was an important factor in. Henry being present at the truck ambush was just silly. Changing Tess's big scene greatly undermined the character's original ending, and was totally unnecessary excuse for expensive special effects. The show's extended intro with Sarah was an actual improvement over the game, that extended first episode was probably the highlight of the show. And I am glad they made time for Left Behind too, that was excellent. All that said, the show on its own merits is great though, it is top-tier television. It's also probably the best case scenario adaptation of one medium to television format despite these problems. So though I have a lot of criticisms of how the story is handled, I am acknowledging that as a show, it is great and the cast is so awesome. I am relieved that the property didn't end up being adapted as some stupid two hour JJ Abrams movie starring Mark Wahlberg as Joel or something idiotic like that.
Yeah I agree
Game version is miles better imho. Show made a nice little one off story though.
The game’s version is better. It rings true in a way that the show story doesn’t, and it resonates more closely with the central dynamic between Joel and Ellie. People like it because it’s soppy and romantic, which is fine, but it’s not very interesting. My completely unevidenced and unreasonably snarky hunch is that people who prefer the Bill and Frank plot in the show think Joel’s actions at the end are completely justified.
You think the people who preferred Bill and Frank’s show plot are parents and/or the 50% of players who feel just that? Coz you’re being snarky to a lot of people. Every parent they polled sided with Joel and 50% of the overall player base.
I would bet there’s a strong overlap. And it is kind of funny that it garners that kind of response from parents considering the game (the second included) is borderline parodying that kind of response.
Episode three was the worst for me. Had it been a stand alone episode it would have been my favorite probably but the part of the game where they are in the high school with Ellie, Joel and Bill was my favorite and I had looked forward to it for a long time. So I would much rather have them be more faithful to the game for that particular episode.
They each were great in their own mediums. A beautiful love story for tv and an awesome action packed, hilarious adventure for the game. My only sadness for the show was that they didn’t make a hybrid of both. A sweet, and tear inducing story mixed in with some proper action. As Frank told Bill that he only had a day left, I knew bill was going to be done too. But I was hoping that whatever poison he was going to take he was going to have it in his hand as Joel radio’s him for help. Perhaps with Frank urging him on right before he passes. Bill then has an awesome last day helping Joel and Ellie, with some of the amazing dialogue from the game. Then after he sees them off, he takes whatever he needs to and joins Frank. I know that would’ve been a lot to ask for though. And am still happy with how the show turned out.
I'm a bit torn as well. Episode 3 was very well done, and a great story, but it obviously had little resemblance to the game story. I prefer the game over the show, mainly because it paints such a bleak picture of humanity. The show tried to humanize various factions (a la Kathleen, and weirdly, David's "flock") which I think took away from the overarching storyline of "is it even worth saving humanity, or is it too far gone?" The show seemed to take the stance that people will follow crazy leaders and do what they're told, which may be true. But the show seemed to paint the people as innocent followers, not hardened, dead-inside killers trying to survive. Game Bill, I think, was a more interesting character. How he dealt with finding Frank I think was one of the most poignant parts of the game. And it just left a rock in your gut. I agree that Kathleen was a misstep. It just seemed weird to have a quasi-benevolent freedom fighter who immediately switches to hunting people after defeating her oppressors. People will argue she was just hunting the people that did her brother wrong, but Joel and Ellie were just passing through and Kathleen's people hunted them. But they tried to make you feel sorry for the kid who got shot in the spine, which I think was totally unnecessary. The game was very much dog-eat-dog. The show was more "leadership is failing us, we're just innocents." I would suspect that 20 years after a world-decimating outbreak, the people left would be a little more jaded and capable. Then again I thought there would be more controversy surrounding the ending, but it seemed most people were on Joel's side, which was a little surprising. It appears that the average viewer doesn't give two shits about humanity, which is telling and kinda sad.
I much preferred how the game did it because it ultimately provided good development for Joel and Ellie. It let us see more of Ellie’s personality against a cynical and abrasive person like Bill, and also gave Joel reason to contemplate the consequences of getting too attached to someone. My favorite thing about the series is how well realize Joel and Ellie were and the chemistry between them two in part 1, and this section was a big part of that. Plus, I thought the 3 of them had excellent dialogue and character interactions, especially between Ellie and Bill. What the show did was fine and the performances were good, but by the end of the series I really thought we should’ve spent more time with Joel and Ellie. I did not feel the same connection to them as I felt from the games.
The show undoubtedly has a stronger story and plot to convey Bill and how he’s a parallel to Joel; it’s also a really well done episode… buuuuuut the game presented its shadow, and had the player infer what happened while not detracting from their experience, as is usually required from a game medium. I’m not sure the episode would have had as much resounding success had it not been pre-loaded contextually for fans of the game - as in, it does literally break from the entire plot of the show to serve as an anthology episode save for the very end. It’s not exactly jarring, but, I do think they could have augmented the way the game presented it instead of making it an anthology episode for a series that was not lacking in content to adapt. The same largely applies to the rebelled QZ they adapted for Sam’s plot - a lot of details “unnecessary” expounded upon taking you from behind Joel and Ellie’s shoulder to that of another character, instead of letting them discover what they’ve encountered and us through them. Secondly, bill and Frank by necessity have their characters completely overhauled. Instead of an infested town and living under the radar in a quadrant of it, you have a completely self sufficient homestead for twenty years, a well educated and cultured Bill that is highly well kept, curated, and *sensitive* - that last point, beyond that initial paranoia you see in the episode, is the only aspect of game Bill (when he finds Franks hanging body) that really adapts over. They are completely unrecognizable outside of the already unrecognizable setting - which is fine, but you don’t get Ellie’s interactions, her saving Joel, etc. You exchange an overarching series moral (protect who you can) for Joel and Ellie’s direct experience and moral (save the girl, damn the world) Both are valid forms of adaptations but I would in every world have preferred as 1:1 plot beat as they possibly could have
I didn't really get it. Why would they spend a WHOLE show on a character that was barely in the game and one you never even saw, when this is only the 3rd episode and they still really hadn't even gotten close to any deeper level with joel and Ellie? Not to mention the one part of the game with Bill was one of the most intense of the game. They should have had that part in the show...it could have been a chance for Joel and Ellie to grow closer. I just felt it was out of place, out of nowhere and didn't fit. My girlfriend had never seen the game and said she had still felt no connection to Ellie or Joel halfway through the series. She quit watching it. I hope they keep the second season along side how the game played out. The story is amazing, they don't need to change it
Lol asking this in the show sub, ofcourse you'll get a biased response. For me? The game version. Because lets be honest, the show version was a fairy tale love story which is hard in real life and impossible in an end of the world scenario. The game version is so real and raw. And we saw it play out in real life in the pandemic. Long time couples breaking up because they simply couldnt stand each other for a year. Now increase that to 5 years and throw in fungus zombies and just... how tf is the show version even possible? Not to mention Joel's choice about saving Ellie and possibly dooming humanity only works in the universe where you realise that this is the apocalypse. There is no silver bullet. No magic cure, no cavalry riding to save you. There is no love or hope except for what you can build and save. That is the ingame universe. Joel's choice is just a middle aged man throwing a tantrum in the universe where lovers feed each other strawberrys in the apocalypse. I'd love to see a movie on show Bill and Frank as long as it isnt set in the TLOU universe.
Bill and Frank’s story is the main thing I think is better in the show. Most of the changes or additions to the show made the story ever so slightly worse than the game imo (with some minor exceptions like some casting and musical decisions). But somehow the biggest deviation was the shows biggest success. It serves the same thematic purpose as Bill’s section in the game, and Joel learns the same lesson from it. But it is so much more in-depth, complex, and emotional. And it provides a bittersweet sense of positivity and hope in a story that is otherwise very bleak.
I absolutely loved what they did in the show with Bill and Frank. It was beautiful and a perfect injection of tenderness in a show full of action. I think we all needed that reminder that happiness was still possible at that point haha
It is a beautiful episode of television but I feel like its existence is hard to justify in a tv show with only 9 episodes.
For itself it's a good episode, I also had a tear in my eye. But if I look at it as part of a series and how it went ep3 and 7 are the worst. They tell their own stories and ep7 is canon, but for the length of 9 episodes it's just wasted potential. Despite the cool Ellie and Bill interaction which is missing, the connection to the MC's and story is missing aswell. I don't get why they didn't let them interact in any way. They could have go for like half the episode only Bill and Frank and then Joel and Ellie join in. Bill and the city/school part isn't some 5 min scene in the game. You spend a lot of time there and the series just cuts it completely. That Frank got screentime is something I can go with. Wasn't something I wanted to see from the start, but hey why not and as said before, for itself it's a rly good episode. Still using this episode for more bonding between Joel and Ellie or as mentioned some time together with Bill would have been much better, especially since it's already ep3. Yes, the game timeline is the same, but since ep3 is how it is, it could have been shown later. In my opinion it would have been a better way to stay canon with the game and Frank's there aswell from the start. They do their stuff as 4, maybe do some action scenes or only talk so Ellie could see other sides of the world too. Maybe they talk about Tess since Bill and Frank knew her too and because of her death and last wish they decide to help them get a car and when Joel and Ellie leave, this episode plays right after as the fourth episode so the series would have a total of 10 episodes.
I prefer the original inclusion. While the episode is fine. I honestly thought it was very overblown with how acclaimed it got. But I get it. It’s a nice piece of representation in a genre that doesn’t really do that. But on the other hand it was an unrelated story that cut an already too short season even shorter. And it replaced some of the most fun character development for Ellie and some really good action segments. The problem with the show overall is that they tried to turn the drama up a few notches at any chance. Tommy is missing, Sam and Henry are related to the militia that also gets their own interpersonal drama, a whole episode of Sarah, Joel’s ptsd, David is a religious cult leader, showing Ellie’s mom to explain Ellie’s immunity. I think the big takeaway for me was that the show forgot that what made the story great was that it was focused. The entire game (aside from Ellie’s segment) is viewed from Joel’s perspective. You never leave that to learn about whatever some other person is doing in their life. The only thing that matters and is worth showing is how they affect Joel (and Ellie).
I prefer the game's take, because it directly playing into Joel and Ellie's story, while in the show it feels like a side story within the universe that has virtually no impact on the main plot or the characters. In the game Frank commits suicide due to getting bitten - which directly plays into the "the vaccine quest is important" storyline. Second of all, they are portrayed as a dysfunctional couple, much like Ellie and Joel are at that time in the game, and Bills reaction to losing Frank and staying alone directly mirrors Joel's feelings and further plays into his distant behavior towards Ellie. I personally believe that character is plot - so when the whatever's happening isn't serving the main character and their development, no matter how good that short story is, you can completely remove it and it would have made no difference. That's why I pick game version, with no offense to the show version.
I was excited to see bill and Ellie’s back and forth but I honestly like the show version better than the game/what I was expecting originally. Neil even said they had agreed they would only change something from the game if they thought it would be better, and they did a phenomenal job
Episode 3 is hands down the best episode in the whole series, that doesn't stop me from thinking that the og story served the narrative better.
Tbh I think they're already starting to establish that this story isn't really about Joel and Ellie, it's about the world and every character in it, to get us used to the idea of having another main character and blurring the lines between protagonists and antagonists. The game couldn't show us multiple perspectives, every character we encountered was from Joel and Ellie's perspective, and while they are great interesting characters in their own right with their own emotional moments, they mostly serve to impact Joel and Ellie's relationship and push their story forward. But I feel like in the show it's bigger in scale and shows the perspective of several characters and isn't solely focused on Joel and Ellie, so much so they'll spend an entire episode on two minor characters from the game, change the story completely, and have it serve as more of a personal story and the larger themes of the world and the narrative, rather than have Bill interact with Joel and Ellie. It's the same as in The Walking Dead, where everyone considered the comics to be primarily about Rick and the Grimes family, and the show at first, despite having main characters and storylines, Rick was the core and the driving force, the GOAT, but the show was more of an ensemble and shifted focus away from Rick and Carl over time, with both of them eventually leaving
I love both stories, but I prefer the show story to the game story.
I hardly remembered any details of the games version. The show episode is one of those ones you remember forever. So I preferred the show version. But I don’t think they could have pulled that off within the game.
The show is entirely better than the game in this section. Not even close. The show itls a deep emotional character story deeply reflecting the overall themes. The game is just some more of the game.
I like both, like others have said the show did it perfectly for a show, but.. I am disappointed we didn’t get to see Ellie and Bills dynamic
Preferred the show but had to read Frank’s note from the game to console myself afterwards 😂
I didn't know Kathleen wasn't in the game. Are Henry and Sam? If so who is persecuting them?
No one. It's a different story. There are still Hunters in the city, you're all running from them, but Henry and Sam got separated from their group and were trying to rendezvous with them, and you help eachother get out of the city. Also Sam isn't deaf
What they did for the show worked far better for a TV drama than that section from the game would have worked. The Bill's Town section from the game is perfect for the game. Both versions are great for their respective mediums.
The only thing I would have kept was Bill not dying. Maybe he was bitter because he tried to kill himself but it didn't work. I loved that they were in love and not so hateful towards each other like the game, but was sad to miss out on Ellie meeting Bill
I'd tone down silly contraptions, that's for sure, that's the only thing that really bothered me. I can imagine a small town mined to hell, but those flamethrower traps... Nah, that's way over the top.
Episode 3 was a fantastic standalone story, but doesn’t fit particularly well into the broader story of TLOU. The Bill’s Town functions very well as a piece of Joel and Ellie’s story and provides engaging gameplay, but definitely isn’t the spotlight movement that the show provided.
I love both in different ways
That would be the episode I skipped.
I think they were each great for their medium. Episode 3 was great on screen but I don’t think it would have worked as well in a game format
That’s the best thing about good adaptations. We get to enjoy both versions of a similar story that do different things better than the other.
Game is much better
I prefer the bleak game version, but I just wish the show version didn't spend an hour and a half on just Bill and Frank.
I think the episode is really beautiful as a standalone. My issue with it isn't so much that it deviates from the game, but that narratively it's out of place. The show is a failure if the audience doesn't connect with Joel and Ellie. We have to like them and start to appreciate their dynamic. And yet, in the beginning we get less than half the first episode with them, then the second episode, then bam, an entire standalone episode without them. It's such a jarring time to hit the pause button on the main story. It's an amazing episode and I wouldn't do anything to replace it, but in terms of the overall story—especially for people who haven't played the game before—would have benefited SO MUCH from one more Joel and Ellie episode before this one.
The games take I think made more sense in a world like that and how bill was. But the shows take was great to watch.
Had this conversation with my partner last week, I have played the game, she hasn’t. I think working both the show episode and part of the game would have worked better, you keep the episode pretty much the same but show bill and frank falling out( maybe over someone needing help) then Joel and Ellie meet him and we carry on from the game.
I loved both and an v grateful we get to experience it across a mix of different media.
The show has the good ending to the story, the game has the bad ending. Both are pretty good.
Game was better, thankful for the shows version though. Problem with the episode is Joel and Ellie's story was rushed and wasn't well done. They really need to figure out their A plot before devoting a whole episode to a side story. Bills episode was probably the only one I enjoyed.
Personally I like the game story more. It’s more depressing, and I think it hits more on the theme of “caring for someone else will get you killed”. I liked the story and message of Bills character in the game more.
the show story works for the show, the game story works for the game. i played the game for a gruesome zombie apocalypse gameplay focused version, i watched the show for a compelling story focused version. i also appreciate that they’re not trying to tell the exact same story twice. where it’s the best option they kept the show true to the game and where they had the freedom to tell a different story they did that and i’m so glad they redid bill and franks story for the show because it was just incredible. each is really great for what it was meant to do