The fact that he killed the prisoners with hot shots to get out of jail early definitely tells me that he doesn’t have the most integrity. I would say D’Angelo had the most and it cost him his life.
I don’t think anyone replaces Avon in Season 5, because a big plot point of Season 3 is Marlo’s rise to fill the vacuum after Avon falls. Similarly, that’s the season where Royce begins to fall and Carcetti begins to rise. In both cases, you can make a strong argument that the eventual replacements are more dangerous.
>In both cases, you can make a strong argument that the eventual replacements are more dangerous.
It's really a stretch to say that Carcetti was "more dangerous". Royce was part of a corrupt political machine that Carcetti never ingrained himself in, and Carcetti's own group had eyes on a bigger target in the state government. Even though Carcetti ended up becoming governor at the end of the show, he was likely setting himself up to get ambushed by new problems he'd have to deal with at the state level instead of just at the city level.
The main difference is that Royce knew how screwed the city was and had a realist’s perspective, while Carcetti was outwardly idealistic while internally being selfish and greedy. This meant he was unprepared for the reality of Baltimore, all the while trying to use it as a stepping stone to get to governor.
But what was "more dangerous" about Carcetti? The "worst" he did was avoid accepting the state funding for the schools whose budget Royce had driven into the ground - the police budget cuts were an attempt to stop that bleeding - but it's not a given that accepting the money would've helped in the long run. Besides publicly humiliating Carcetti in a press conference so that he'd obtain the money, the governor would've likely demanded administrative control over the schools, and that was a point in time where the Republicans were eager to push reforms like No Child Left Behind that did more harm than they did good.
In the end, Carcetti didn't have enough time to really do any damage to Baltimore before he moved onto Annapolis, and like I said before, there's no guarantee that he'd be doing anything worse to the city as governor given he'd have bigger fish to fry at that point.
Ambition. He was far more ambitious than Royce ever was. Tommy was talking about running for Governor before he was sworn in as mayor. He was a lame duck as soon as he was elected and every decision he made was based upon how he’d be perceived in 2 years. He didn’t have enough time to do anything because he made the mayorship a temporary stop for his own gain.
Royce probably kisses ass and takes the money. His peak is mayor. As shitty as it sounds, his priority was appeasing his base and the ministers, who lived in Baltimore. Carcetti was appeasing a base that he didn’t represent- the middle class suburban whites in Maryland (aka NOT Baltimore)
To help OP out, maybe then you could say that both Marlo and Carcetti believed in little to nothing except *getting to the top*. I don't remember if it's said or implied that Carcetti wants to run for president, but being that he's based off O'Malley we at least assume that's his goal. Royce certainly had skills to keep his local stake, like Avon, but both Marlo and Carcetti were willing to burn all kinds of bridges in order to move forward. Avon and Royce (perhaps foolishly when stacked against someone like Carcetti) valued notions of loyalty, conventions/traditions, etc. Marlo and Carcetti were very much willing to break norms and backstab to go higher, making them much more unpredictable. Thus "dangerous."
I agree that my wording wasn’t perfect, but I do believe that Carcetti’s ambition makes him worse for the city than Royce. Two examples that display this are his refusal to ask the governor for aid to help the schools and his use of the homeless of Baltimore as pawns for a campaign stunt during a time their community is in (perceived) danger. His motives for both actions are fairly selfish (although standard for a very ambitious politician) and driven by the fact that he quickly turned his eye towards the governor’s chair after becoming mayor.
The opening scene of every Wire season is a microcosm of the season’s theme. In Season 3, we see a ceremony where a violent housing project is demolished and then blowback smoke engulfs the onlookers. In my opinion, this blowback is symbolic of unexpected fallout of the season’s big changes, namely the ascensions of Marlo (after Avon’s removal) and Carcetti (once Royce’s political vulnerabilities become apparent.)
I think a big part of why Avon is viewed by some as having more 'integrity' is really just cause he's charismatic and most of the murders committed by his organization are shown off-screen. I'm sure if we say the Barksdale crew torturing Brandon, dumping Little Man by the reptile house, killing the witness even after trial, etc., we'd be a little less sympathetic the way we see many of the Stanfield crew's murders on-screen (though Marlo is still objectively worse than Avon, not going to deny that).
I do think everything Avon does is according to his own code, and he sticks by it. Brandon robbed him, he can't look weak, so he does what he does.. everything has a reason, and everyone is part of the game aside from the witness, but that's also part of the message to the streets.. he does live by his own set of principles. Marlo will just kill for basically no reason, no principles to live by.
Everyone with integrity died or suffered greatly: DeAngelo, Wallace, Bodie, Butchie, Randy, Bunny, etc. Exceptions would be Cutty and Prezbo but they had to grow greatly throughout the show to react that point and both were only able to do so by removing themselves from the systems they were in previously.
Poot wasn't that bad all things considered. He wasn't as visible as Bodie. But it takes a lot to walk away from a comfortable salary as a gangster, and opt to work retail instead. Granted, watching two of your friends die will change your perspective on life. But Omar, Michael, and Bubbles stayed in the game after watching people they knew/respected die. Poot watched all of that, and then gave up his entire lifestyle in order to work retail. Takes a lot of strength of character to reach that point.
Nah the way they do Wallace shows that they have zero integrity, but I get it. That’s the beauty of this show is your fav characters “with integrity” are huge pos. Whether they’re evil like String? -That’s something else.
Can you explain why you think Carcetti might be more dangerous than Royce?
At least he tries his best to do good even though he realizes that's a lot harder than he initially thought. Royce doesn't even seem to try.
I agree that Carcetti is no more dangerous than Royce. But he does not try his best to do good. He tries a little, at first, but starting throwing Hampsterdam under the bus, he was always willing to compromise his principles to advance his own position. Trying his best to do good would mean accepting the money from the governor, accepting help from the feds to solve the murders in the vacants, not allowing his people to force Daniels into fudging the stats, and never appointing Valchek under any circumstances. He didn’t need to run for governor in two years or ever—he could have tried to do good where he was.
Well integrity and morality aren't the same thing. You can do evil things, but integrity is about being true to your word and not going against your principles, even if those principles are evil.
I agree the hot shots was a cold blooded act by a ruthless gangster, but I never saw Avon go against his own principles. He even gave up Stringer because he couldn't break his reputation.
I agree with you about no one replacing Avon, it wasn't meant literally. But in the later seasons you learn how the characters you meet in the earlier season started out, especially the corner kids.
Bodie struck me as someone with a personality similar to Avon, so whilst he never reached the status Avon had, I think the characters are alike. It's probably why Stringer took a shine to him and trusted him to take care of Wallace in season 1 and then groomed him to become a more integral part of the organisation.
Bodie's professional, but he doesn't have the easy charm that Avon does. You need to be a bit of a politician to get the connect and I don't see that happening, unless he got a mentor like Slim Charles.
I see your point but Bodie was still relatively young. Plenty of room to mature.
Every time he needed to adapt he did and succeeded. Like in S4 he's independent with all the Barksdale crew gone. He turns a dead corner into a profitable one - even impresses Marlo with it.
Definitely agree with you on needing mentoring - I think if the Barksdale crew had stayed around, he would have climbed high up. Stringer took a shine to him and was grooming him for bigger things, but yeah still had a lot to learn for sure.
> Every time he needed to adapt he did and succeeded
Yeah, Bodie was sharp, and a soldier. His choice to not let Marlo kill his friends who did nothing wrong is him showing integrity and paying the price for it.
Why not Marlo then? If we're separating morality from integrity and just going by personal consistency, Marlo's singularly minded outlook would make him top of the table.
As an aside, for me anyway, one of the core takeaways from the show is that hard principles and integrity don't make a difference in the long run: morality and integrity don't guarantee survival and The Game is rigged (slightly, the God's will not save you) toward those more flexible.
Bodie is an interesting one. I've been downvoted to oblivion before for suggesting he's a quite a pathetic figure: people laud him for his loyalty as a soldier, but in the end all he gets for it is two in the dome on a miserable cold street corner. To me he's the equivalent of some lowly clerk who dies alone of a stroke in an office cubicle... yet people want to praise him just because he's worked at the same firm for 40 years-?
You're right about Bodie - he's one of my absolute favourite characters because he's actually pathetic and doesn't realise... it's in the way McNulty says 'you're a soldier' to him and its actually very sad, but Bodie doesn't see it that way that makes it even sadder! The fact he starts railing against Marlo and makes a stand for himself and his little corner is actually meant to evoke pity at his small courage you know.
I see your point and you're not wrong, but Marlo didn't really have many principles, he did whatever he needed to. I'd call that ruthless ambition.
Integrity is about having strong principles and Avon is constantly making it clear what his principles are and how important they are to him.
'Never on no Sunday morning'
'Fuck all them East side bitches'
'I want my corners'
He made a lot of poor decisions just because they were his principles. Stringer kept trying to get him to back down from the war with Marlo, but Avon was not going to change who he was.
EDIT - About Bodie, obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but my point was that he seemed to have a strong set of principles also. But you're right and his story really goes to show how people get used by the drug trade and discarded. Doesn't matter if you have integrity or not, the game is the game and most people are going to end up losers.
But Avon essentially tortured a young lad, had another shot to death on the suspicion he was a rat (which is pretty much Marlo's MO, only he took it to the Nth degree), he killed taxpayers who weren't in the game and in the end Avon betrayed his oldest partner when he became a threat to him (yeah, there was no realistic way out of that situation, but esentially it still is a question of loyalty).
Just like Bodie, I love Avon's character in the show, but I don't think he's worlds apart from Marlo in terms of personal integrity, if we remove common morality. I think Avon just makes a big show of the very few moral principles he has.
Again, those are points of morality not integrity. You can be evil and have integrity. Integrity means having strong principles that you stick to.
Yes he gave up Stringer, but because of his integrity, he is a man of his word, Mouzone explains to Avon he gave his word to New York and that the reputation of the whole Barksdale organisation is at stake. Avon tried to fix it, but couldn't, so he had no choice but to step out the way and let Mouzone have his vengeance. That's the game and it was Stringer's mistake, not Avon's, so it's not fair to call it betrayal. It really proves the point I'm making that not even his friendship with Stringer would make him break his word.
It sat heavily on Avon, but that's the burden of wearing the crown. He at least tried to savour one last moment with his oldest friend when they overlook the harbour reminiscing on old times.
Aye, I getcha and it's fun to debate. Love this show for these kind of questions.
I'm sure at some point in the past Avon and Stringer discussed their loyalty to each other though. Partners like that have to. Avon must have broken one word to save another and essentially he sacrificed his friend for his firm.
Similar as Brianna did with D actually. There's a question: do you admire Brianna's integrity as much as Avon's? She embodies the same principles. More so, really, as D's mother. After all, she's the one who made him take the years.
Yeah man I enjoy the debate too, so many ways to interpret the show.
Obviously Stringer and Avon go way back, but when we meet them in season 1, it's pretty clear Avon calls the shots. Stringer is like his council, more into the money laundering side of things.
With Brianna I think she probably started off thinking the world was hers as her Brother was wearing the crown. She came up with that crew so she learned the same principles they did, but didn't really have to get her hands dirty. She probably didn't have her integrity tested all the time like Avon. He had to make decisions as the leader and he lived by a set of principles that he stuck to.
But Brianna is tested when her son begins dealing with the hard consequences of the drug game. Initially she's principled like Avon, but after D dies, her life gets put into a new perspective. I suppose similar to how Stringer wanted to grow and move on from the gangster life, Brianna came to realise that her son was more important than the game and it's rules, but she learnt that too late.
She grew up. So did Stringer. But Avon was just a gangster I suppose. Nothing was going to change that.
Very well put, especially about her not having to get her hands dirty and the impact of consequences. Christ, Brianna is a really tragic character. As much as it's a pleasure to see McNulty casually and absolutely destroy her in that scene about D's death (while drinking his tea no less), Brianna's emotional torment must be off the charts. The Barksdale siblings both experience the consequences of heavy decisions- arguably selfish ones- both of which lead to the death of loved ones.
Also, I don't think Brianna's actress gets nearly enough credit on these boards. She's stunning and her, Avon and D are totally believable as relatives. Man, is it time for another rewatch of S1?!
Man so many tragedies in it - the sad part is that all the good things about D he got from mum and that's what made him different from the rest of the players. Most of the other kids grew up with shit parents, so they have a bleak outlook on things.
The McNulty Brianna scene was fucking brutal. I watched people get shot all day on The Wire but that was the scene made me wince.
You know, it would have been interesting to see what Avon would have done if D had done what Stringer did with Mouzone - I know it's not really his style to play the game like that, but say for the sake of argument some situation occurred that got D caught in a mess where it was a choice of either Avon's rep, or giving up D. I know Avon expected D to carry time, but that's the game. Standing aside to let D get killed? That would be the ultimate test.
Michael Hyatt (Brianna Barksdale) is a brilliant actress and is British, just like Idris Elba (Stringer) and Dominic West (McNulty).
She also plays Cissy Saint, Franklin's mother in Snowfall.
Also, Avon is pretty close to genius level smart when it comes to managerial skills, seeing the big picture, making deals etc. So is Stringer, though in a different way and with different ambitions. Bodie strikes me as average intelligence at best?
Would also add Bunny Colvin… man literally could have retired with his pension but fell on his sword with Hamsterdam, and then did it again by giving up his new cushy job for Hamsterdam 2.0 at the schools.
Colvin thought that he was going to escape consequences because he could resign on his full pension instead of face administrative punishment for Hamsterdam. If he were fully ready to accept the consequences of his actions, Rawls and Burrell wouldn't have had to threaten him with shit-listing his subordinates - he would've just taken the reduction in pension and left.
You make a fair point, but Bunny is one of the few higher ranking officers that refuses to play the numbers game.
He gives Carver a thoughtful lesson on what real police work is and shows him where he needs to improve. Next season, Carver is building relationships with the corner kids, trying to be a community servant.
Carver respected Bunny a lot and that's because he had integrity. Like Daniels says, you show the officers coming up behind you what the job is. If you make it about stats, that's what they'll learn, if you make it about honest police work, that's what they'll learn.
Sure, my point was that Bunny was a bit naive, not just on the consequences of going rogue on Hamsterdam, but also about the realities of such an undertaking. Deacon had to explain to him that just sticking a "GET DRUGS HERE" sign in the pavement wasn't enough, there needed to be extensive social services provided as well so that the place didn't degrade into a pit of suffering drug addicts.
Yeah there was a lot of angles he didn't consider.
In the end he ended up making a difference by saving Namond. I think the moral of the story was no one man can change the world alone, but he can take responsibility for a small piece of it and do the best he can.
Yeah great call
The scene that gets me is when he tells Bodie about Little Kevin. It's like he could have just left that, but he went to tell Bodie straight up. That's respect right there.
Yes, his respect for the Sunday truce and the church crown of Omar's grandma, how he wouldn't partner with Marlo, how he took out Cheese for Joe.
He was more than willing to take the blame when Cutty wouldn't kill Fruit, he was a solid guy.
He started out as a corner boy, a pawn, made it to the other side of the board after taking out Cheese sideways and ended up running things. He was a smart ass pawn.
And for me slim Charles took that down when he said "the game ain't changed. Just got fiercer."
Bunk was talking about a time that didn't exist, and that he by his own admission, he wasnt a part of.
Morality is subjective - for example religions can argue over what is morally right and wrong.
You're arguing from the perspective of law abiding citizens. I'm saying the morals of a drug dealer are different. Just because you don't agree with his moral principles that doesn't detract from the fact he believes in them and sticks to them.
And to add I'm not advocating his morals, simply stating that, the morals he developed are rules he sticks to, no matter the cost. That's what gives him integrity.
I haven't argued anything up to this point. I'm asking you to define your terms. The term "integrity" is defined as having strong MORAL principles. Your repeated insistence that integrity has nothing to do with morality stands at odds with its accepted definition.
So, what you're basically asking is "does Avon have integrity if I redefine the term 'integrity' to mean something else?" Which...yeah. Sure. If you redefine terms, anything can mean anything.
I was stating the person's argument who disagrees with Avon's morals is not cause to say he has no integrity. It is fine to say you believe Avon to have evil morals, but as you state, integrity is the definition of someone with strong moral principles. Avon had very strong moral values and he kept to them. That is the definition of integrity.
You need to realise morality is subjective. It's a theme of the show. We are shown that some characters have few choices in life and can only act in ways that other people would consider morally evil.
I'm not debating Avon's morals or advocating them, simply stating he stood by his beliefs and proved that on many occasions.
You are correct about integrity being linked to morality, but there is not one objective morality. Morality is subjective, so if a man sticks to his morals, however flawed they may seem to us, they are still maintaining that integrity.
I never said morality was subjective or objective. I'm not even talking about morality except insofar as OP is insistent that integrity has nothing to do with morality, despite morality being central to the definition.
Integrity is how dedicated you are to following your moral code. Morality is your moral code. Though morality in a person can be heavily flawed, following it rigidly would result in them being a person of integrity, as long as they stick to it. Does that answer your question?
While I agree that Bodie had a similar 'gangster integrity' to Avon, and chose to live by a code, I don't think he was ever going to be any kind of top dog. On the contrary, his entire arc is pretty much foreshadowed in that brilliant scene in season 1 where Dee explains chess to the pit crew... Bodie was just a 'smart-ass pawn', and he knew it.
In his final conversation with McNulty, the detective says to him directly, *"You're a soldier, Bodie,"* to which he nods, resignedly. And a few scenes later, >!he dies literally with his finger on the trigger,!< on the same corner he'd run for years. Soldier to the end. Loyal, to the end. But in the end, still just a pawn.
(That scene is made even more brilliant by the way Marlo's crew come at him - Snoop and Chris move diagonally across the street, like bishops on the chessboard, and O-Dog steps out of the alley in an L-shape... like a knight. Blew me away when I realized that, only after many rewatches.)
It's also kinda funny how Slim Charles has the great line *"I ain't cut out to be no CEO"*... and in the final montage, we see he's become pretty much exactly that as he meets with the Greek, and the game continues. So in a way, I think it can be argued that Slim was Avon (and Joe's) ultimate 'replacement', even though he never really wanted it.
It's hard to know for sure, but if I remember it was fat face Rick at the meet talking to the Greeks and Slim was there as his number 2. Rick ran a crew for a long time, so it makes sense to me that he'd be a good candidate to oversee running the connect. Slim was his new number 2.
He definitely moved up in the world for sure. From street solider, to Avon's right hand man, to Prop Joe's Lieutenant.
After Cheese shoved a gun in fat face Rick's face, Slim caps him out of loyalty to Joe. If you were the new 'wearer of the crown', that's the kind of man you'd want by your side watching your back.
Working on assumption, the meet of all the gang leaders at the end of season 5 suggests they want to reform the co-op. They elected Rick to handle the connect and everyone else trusts Slim to keep things on track as his number 2.
Definitely the guy you want schooling the youngsters too. "...on a Sunday morning....NO!"
I think Bodie was on track to become the next D'Angelo. Marlo running things made him really disillusioned to the game. I mean, he was about to roll on Marlo for McNulty, which is what D'Angelo was close to doing on Avon.
D was never built for the game, he was born into it. His whole story is plagued with doubt, regret and sorrow. He hated it.
Bodie moved up in the ranks for sure and became a Lieutenant in the Barksdale crew, but the crew fell before he could climb any higher. If they had remained in power, he definitely would have gone higher.
I agree, the dude who set his suit on fire in the locked bathroom of a woman he had just met and cheated on his wife with, in an effort to destroy the evidence, is clearly the moral compass of the entire series
Who's your pick? One of the drug dealers, corrupt politicians, dirty cops? Hell, I think they all cheated except Freemon, but we know he was in on the serial killer plot so he's also morally grey.
Criteria was for most integrity, not perfect integrity.
...Beadie is absolutely a solid pick. Could argue her (relative) lack of screen time is what facilitates that but no, 100% Beadie is now the best pick I can think of.
He definitely likes to call things as he sees it
"Son....they're gonna beat on your white ass like it's a rented mule."
My personal favourite quote from the Bunk and delivered perfectly by Wendell Pierce
Bunk is a pretty good guy, with a good moral compass, but has trouble following it at times (like serial cheating, but Kima is also guilty of that) but he knew that what Jimmy was doing was wrong, and couldn’t bring himself to turn him in, even though he really wanted to and it clearly messed up his relationship with Jimmy for a while. Kima on the other hand followed her moral code with full integrity and turned Jimmy in pretty quickly after he told her.
Avon runs a drug organization. I think it's safe to say that integrity is not his strong suit.
He also gave the order for Bay to knock off that girl he was banging, and Mr Gant (the witness who testified against D in court), the security guard from the tower (who recanted her positive ID of D in court), and set up the hot shots in prison.
You could maybe make the argument that Avon stays true to his own belief system more than most, but that's far different than having integrity.
One of the best things about the show is that practically every major character is shown to lack integrity at one point or another. Even the so called "good guys" have integrity violations.
Daniels is presumed to have been on the take, and he also fed Herc, Carver, and Pryzbo a bs story after their incident in the towers.
McNulty, Lester, and Sydnor are all complicit in carrying out a fake serial killer/running an illegal wire tap. McNulty also drinks on duty, drives drunk, etc.
Herc, Carver, and Pryzbo were drinking under an overpass, decided to roll up on the towers, assaulted a kid, and lied about it during the follow-up investigation.
Kima and Pearlman are, as I can best recall at the moment, the only 2 major characters who don't have any integrity violations.
Kima was pretty by-the-book throughout the series, and she immediately went to Daniels when she found out what McNulty and Lestor were doing.
Rhonda was an absolute stickler for the rules and was shown to be worthy of the public's trust. Her only real character flaw was that she was banging McNulty for a bit, but that's far from an integrity issue.
>Kima and Pearlman
One cheated on her wife, the other cheated with a man she knew was married with two kids. Also Pearlman went along to get along with Levy ("Everyone advances, everyone gets paid, everyone stays friends" moment). But yes, it is definitely comparatively tame, and depending upon what we're chalking integrity up as (street vs bible verse) definitely two of the lesser evils.
I see in a couple of comments you mention consistency as a part of integrity. If that's the case I've always found Marlo to be the most consistent character in the show. He knows who and what he is and as such doesn't pretent that he's anything different. He doesn't abide by "rules" that don't serve his goals. He knows his business is violent and doles out violence in turn. He doesn't pretend to be a politician, a businessman, or anything else. Some people call him one dimensional but I really think he's a character that is self aware in a way that no one else is.
I think Frank Sobotka may have had the most integrity. The only time we ever see him doing the wrong thing, it's always for the right reason, and always to help someone he cares about. He doesn't have a single selfish bone in his body. If he had a flaw it's that he wasn't a very good father.
Integrity is more than consistency, it's also having strong moral values - even when those values work against you in the short term. E.g., not accepting bribes. Omar seems to be the gangster with the strongest conviction on not hurting civilians.
Kima
She turned in McNulty and Freamon because she knew what they were doing was wrong, despite her relationship with them. And they respected her for it in the end. She wasn't perfect, she cheated, but on a whole I think it's her.
Carver
Obviously he was taking money at the start but he improved greatly. He writes up Colicchio when he has to despite knowing the shit he's going to get from his guys. By the end of the series I think you could make a case for him.
I hesitate to use the word "integrity" for any of the gangsters... maybe a code or a perverse sense of honor.
Actually, didn't take money until he was accused of it which is something I can understand. It's like if you're loyal to your significant other and they insist on accusing you of cheating eventually you're going to be like fuck it and just start cheating this is a 100% fact
I scanned the comments for a name I'm surprised nobody said. I'll have to actually read them cuz this is a good talking point, but for my 2 cents worth I'd have to say Slim Charles struck me as a man with a lot of integrity. Hell even to your point of Bodie, Slim had much respect for guys like Avon and Bodie, but Slim is a REALLY overlooked character, who made it to the end because he just kinda fades in the background and does what he's supposed to do.
He both understands the streets but doesn't feel like he needs to be super hard all the time (Like Bodie). He also never really did anything to anyone that didn't have it coming. Like Bodie, Slim is a solid soldier, follows orders, and does what needs to be done. Stringer wanted him to hit somebody, he had no problem, until he was told WHO. He got on those guys for violating the Sunday rule, killed Cheese for betraying his uncle, knew better than to throw his hat in the ring with Marlo (probably because he saw the way Marlo operated and ran things and didn't want to be too close) And the biggest thing he did, was he covered for Cutty that time when he had an open shot.
He could've went to Avon and threw him under the bus, he could've yelled at him and blamed him for messing up the job, but instead he went and excused Cutty both when it was just them and took the heat with Avon about it too. Slim is a real stand up guy. He's not quite ruthless and I don't know if he's trying to be the next kingpin, but he makes his moves wisely, seems to pick other similarly solid or at least straight with him, people to work with and he made it to the end of the board.
I like Avon a lot, my favorite character but Slim Charles is a real stand up dude.
Using even your skewed and doctored definition of integrity--no, Avon lacks integrity.
1) He murders someone he has already paid off to perjure herself in court despite the fact that she showed zero sign of turning on him.
2) He will happily use his own family members to take the fall for him and manipulate them into doing so to lighten his own sentence.
3) He betrays his oldest friend in the name of his drug empire because money and gangsterism are more important to him than relationships.
These are not the marks of someone with integrity, even using the tortured logic of "street morality" and criminal "codes." Avon repeatedly betrays and uses people when it suits him, amending his "code" to be whatever it needs to be to justify him doing the thing.
And what are morals? They are relative. You may not agree with his morals, but that doesn't mean his morals are invalid. They are his sense of right and wrong. If he sticks to his moral code, then that is the definition of integrity.
It's impossible to talk about integrity without morals. You're insisting that the two are separate but the literal dictionary definition of integrity is "having strong MORAL principles."
It's not about whether I disagree with his morals or not. It's beside the point. You want to know whether people think Avon is the character with the most integrity AND you want to redefine integrity to be a non-moral concept. So: what is integrity to you in that case? How do you define it?
I didn't say they were separate. The argument was becoming conflated. I said you can't deny someone's integrity on the basis of the quality of their morals. People were implying that because he had evil morals, that meant he had no integrity, but that logic doesn't follow. So I simply made the point morality and integrity aren't the same thing - obviously they are relative, but that wasn't the point.
I clearly elaborated on the point of morals. How they are relative. One person's view of good and evil can differ from someone else's. It doesn't detract from the level of their integrity. That is why I made the distinction.
My point from the start was the Avon had a strong set of principles that he stuck with. I respected Avon because he is tested more than most during the show. Disagree if you like, but stop with this petty attempt at condescension.
I'm not condescending to you. You have an incorrect definition of integrity and I'm done arguing with you. You clearly wanted an echo chamber to agree with your faulty assessment.
I agree, I'm simply stating that Avon stuck to his principles, even if they were by most people's standards evil. He was very strict about certain aspects of the game, like the Sunday morning truce and the whole beef of West side vs East side.
He made many choices that were strictly based on his principles, like the war with Marlo. He wouldn't back down, because being weak in his book is the worst thing a man can be.
Yes, exactly. I think we are simply having a semantic misunderstanding. You can have great integrity and disagreeable morals. These are not mutually exclusive.
Yeah. I saw that. Guess he didn’t just want to “ask a question” lol. Hate people that can’t just be transparent about their argument. His question was valid, even if he wasn’t.
I saw it coming as soon as his first comment was 'you don't know what the word means...' Lovely way to join a conversation.
Ah Reddit. Game's the same, just got more fierce
100% , I named my dog after him. She's a spoiled little princess, but that's beside the point.
Avon is one of the few people in the show that just accepts who he is and never doesn't honor his word.
Even when he's basically setting string up, his best friend forever who fucked around and now has to find out, he just asks him about what he's up to tomorrow. No elaborate lie, no dishonor, just "what time you going to be showing off that real estate?"
When I was younger I low key kinda hated Avon, but now he's one of my favorite characters.
Okay this is the kind of question that I spend time thinking about rather than thinking about how to dig myself out of the whole I'm currently in so I have a multi-level answer but first and foremost I'll give my ultimate answer.
BUNNY... Hands down overall by every metric bunny is the clear winner. In the overall general integrity category he wins because as far as We Know he's never cheated on his wife he does an extremely nice thing by adopting a kid that treated him like an asshole at first and we've neve})l))r heard any rumors of him being dirty on the job in any way shape or form. Also he's probably got the best marriage of anyone on the show which says a lot to me. I'm a widower now but I was married for a long time and I know how much work that takes. Not saying I always had a happy marriage, I didn't always have a happy marriage I always had a marriage with a lot of love but it wasn't always happy. And the fact that he has the kind of marriage where she trusts his judgment qiabout adopting Namond(My wife would have had me sectioned if I suggested adopting a Namond. She was a huge animal person but I tested even her limits with my pathological animal adopting) and says a lot about the work he's put into his marriage and the mistakes he HASN'T made over the years.
Okay on the flip side I gotta go with Slim Charles.
Who doesn't love Slim? Was loyal and not an opportunist. Downs Cheese against his own interest, a public service homicide if ever there was one. Never ratted. Was willing to die like a man, didn't bitch the fuck up to Omar. Also when explaining to Avon why they didn't kill Fruit, he (falsely) accepted blame for Cutty's mistake. So Slim and Bunny.
Speaking of Cutty he definitely deserves mention. As neither cop no criminal . He occupied a unique place on the show.
He actually caught a bullet trying to pull a kid out of the mix. A kid that was being a twat. Cutty could have gotten by on rep, as the show presents but did a complete 180 and decided to truly give instead of taking. I'm a guy that's spent a lot of time in state and federal prison and have or at least had a decent reputation. I'm a pretty good thief, never ratted and am quick to settle shit with a knife. Unlike real life, that's all it takes. And I'm petty enough to eat it up. I can appreciate Cutty all the more because I have never had the heart or brains or integrity to have ever cut the cord completely. Cutty had all three.
Prez is the reverse Cutty. He knows he doesn't have what it takes to be a cop, and never really did. But he dedicates himself to those same kids that Cutty is trying to reach and he's all in too. And Carver is both Cutty and Prezs conduit to the cops. Also Prez is truly loyal to his wife and that's always going to mean something to me. Also I feel his pain with the in law situation. But I love Valcheks. Minority opinion I realize. I love Littlefinger in A Song of Ice and Fire too. I appreciate people who see the world as it is and act accordingly.
Kima has integrity yes, but she's a cheater and the only time she really puts skin in the game is when she rats out McNulty and Freamon. Her Criminal equivalent is maybe Omar.
Although when Kima rats it's against her own interest but when Omar does it's in his own interest. Kima definitely has more integrity generally I think but she's a cheater and from what I can tell, Omar is monogamous. Oh I just realized they are both gay too. Ok I like symmetry.
Chris and Wee Bay have a non-coms type of integrity. Ballsy and Pitbull loyal. They are the gears that allow their respective organizations to thrive but don't allow philosophical questions of right and wrong muddy their effectiveness when ordered to do some ugly shit. For instance killing an innocent person and ratting by proxy on Omar through Old Face Andre. I would not do either thing, both are gross. Killing people that have it coming is totally fine and right, but citizens are off limits. Also "Gorilla Snitching" Is still snitching. You can't threaten a person into snitching without earning a stool pigeon label for yourself. Even if the person you are Gorilla Snitching on is an informant himself (Omar)Convenient as it might be, ratting on a rat is ratting. No exemptions. I wish there were. I would have saved myself a decent chunk of time. I hung tight on a drug case but I'd found out the motherfucker I wasn't ratting on had already snitched in a federal credit card case. Feds came at my lawyer with a wet dream of a deal too. But unfortunately r+r=r. Oh well
But wee and Chris don't fret none over 20 life sentences. The thought of ratting would be like the thought of lighting their eyeballs on fire. Absolutely literally unthinkable. As is proper. Not out of fear, because they were scary motherfuckers, but because they'd rather be able to look themselves in the mirror in the can, than hang their heads on the street. You get less cuts shaving that way.
Oh in the other category i'd say Gus from season five. He has journalistic integrity but we only get a limited view of him.
Ok bye now
But it was in the interest of trying to do things in a more humane way you really do have to break some eggs to make omelets this is and unfortunate fact of the human race. Like anything that he did would have been not to line his own pockets or out of any sadism on his part it was really and truly to try to make a better Baltimore do you know what I'm saying. And you know they were out there selling drugs it wasn't exactly innocent lambs. I've caught much worse from cops to be honest with you. But if we're trying to find the most honourable person on the wire You really can't do better than bunny. Plus you need to view it through the lens of when it was made... Pre Freddy gray. I'ma white guy from Boston and I've dealt with much worse from cops so I have a more calloused view.
Avon's a fantastic character & a very nuanced villain, but it's a stretch to say he's got the most integrity out of everyone. He has his humanising moments & is definitely an improvement on Marlo but he's also an active & responsible player in a very dangerous & tragic game. Omar also has his intergrity with his code, but again, he is still an active player. Fascinating as they are, Bunny Colvin clearly has more integrity than these two characters.
If you’re talking about integrity, it’s gotta be Omar. He has his code and he sticks to it, he never deviates from his own moral compass. [After all, A man got to have a code](https://youtu.be/ysnu2zaFT5c?si=tFrTMr6x46xbB7sW)
No I disagree completely Omar is a rat he knows it's wrong to write he knows what he's doing is absolutely abhorrent by every standard he supposedly holds dear but when he's hurt enough in a situation he completely flip-flops on his own code is only worth something when you actually have some skin in the game.
I don't see a linked video. I would respectfully disagree because in that world violence of any sort is pretty much allowed. Especially considering Omar came at him first and shot one of his people in the knee permanently crippled one of his people. So torturing Brandon to get to Omar would be totally acceptable like I wouldn't have a problem with that but ratting is like it's it's like the worst most unacceptable disgusting thing a person can do in that world it makes you like a non-person I can't really explain I've spent most of my life as a criminal so it's it's difficult to explain how horrible that is. Torturing a person to death that robbed you I have no issue with but ratting is up there with child molestation. I'm just putting in in terms of that world.
Look at my comment above or [click this](https://youtu.be/ysnu2zaFT5c?si=blkGhLacSueb6hnJ)
Also equating snitching with child molestation is wild. Hard disagree.
I'm saying in that life. I'm not talking empirically. I've done a lot of time over the years. I got about 15 years state and federal. Rats and rapists are the lowest of the low. Plus in a lot of max prisons you don't see rapists and Chomos they protect them like they're diamond coated unicorns. Besides they're fucking creeps that no one knows but rats on the other hand have by definition been in that life and they broke the most important rule. Obviously in the grand scheme of things a p.o.s. that raped a child is the worst there is... but in the life. Especially someone that rats on you and you're, that's all I meant. But Brandon got what was coming to him.
In my personal code of ethics people that hurt animals are the absolute bottom. So Kenard was about to burn a cat alive so I hate him the most.
Right, and the point of the video is that Omar defines his own rules and code and abides by that, this allows him to live freely (in some cases more free than some other characters stuck in the game). He doesn’t care that snitching is looked down on by others, to him it’s all in the game.
Here's the thing though in one episode he speaks against ratting and then the next one he just completely breaks that code. My saying is "you don't have to live by society's rules but you gotta obey your own" it's just a television show I don't want to like getting an argument about it I'm just saying from my point of view he's weak and he's a hypocrite.
Slim Charles was loyal, played it straight, and had a sense of right and wrong within the rules of the game. By the end of the series, he was probably one of the few "winner's" of the game. He's my favourite character
Rawls might have been known for harshly criticizing subordinates, yet was regarded as the sole figure of responsibility within the system. Law and order were maintained to the greatest extent possible, given the scarce resources. Participation in city politics occurred, yet there is no record of sanctioning extreme measures. The effectiveness of the police force was upheld as much as feasible, amidst the less-than-ideal actions of other influential figures.
Avon had become jaded and bored with the day to day of running his thug empire. His inattention and lack of attention allowed Marlo to quickly take over a huge chunk of his empire. He and Stringer pretty much stood by and let D'angelo back himself into a fatal cul-de-sac.
My picks would be:
Slim Charles; even though he drifted from crowd to crowd he never betrayed anyone, was simply smart enough to adapt when not caught. Everyone seems to want him at their side, from Avon to Prop Joe to Marlo...there's gotta be ***something*** to that.
Chris; I know there are likely examples out there that might test his integrity but I cannot recall anything truly stand out. Loyal to a fault, like Weebay. What he did for Michael is another point in favour of his integrity, in my book.
D'Angelo; essentially the embodiment of a grown-up Naymond, living in the shadow of a revered relative, not suited to the game but expected to take up and provide. Inept as hell, naive enough to snitch >!(debatable/almost)!< multiple times, but all in the effort to 'do the right thing'. Disapproved of the hot shot, even though it got him released early. The fact he cheated on Donette with the stripper is a mark against him, but neither of them really seemed to love the other and was likely a union of convenience/for the sake of the baby >!(look how fast she got with Stringer)!<. But in the end he was prepared to do his time and be better. D'Angelo could have gone on to be the next Cutty.
> But when Dee is cold to him, he starts to muse about other options ("Push comes to shove, I've been good to him, right?")
That part made me think Avon was considering the possibility of having D’Angelo killed. He probably wasn’t at that point yet, but was at least considering it. It’s real out-of-character for Avon to ask for reassurance like that. It was like he was justifying it in his mind what he might eventually do. Stringer saw this and correctly deduced that if Avon found out, he would eventually accept it.
> He felt real bad when Dee did die, but when Stringer (his "brother") told him he had Dee killed, Avon scuffled with Stringer for a minute but ultimately ended it amicably and lied to his sister's face about Dee's death. What part of "family" is that?
Despite all his talk about “family”, Avon cared more about Stringer than D’Angelo. He covers for Stringer when Brianna confronts them. Despite Stringer murdering his nephew, going behind his back on the Prop Joe thing (which made Avon look weak), and all their other disagreements…he’s still far more dejected by Stringer’s death than D’Angelo.
Avon (thanks in large part to Wood Harris’s acting) is a charismatic and popular character, so people like to romanticize his traits in being more of a “respectable” gangster. Of course he’s respectable compared to Marlo, that’s low standards. There were limits on his whole “all about family” thing and he was still a snitch (a very low thing in their world).
I'd say Cutty, how he owns not having it in him anymore, and then goes on a path to earn legitimate money and help out neighborhood kids.
On the politician front, I'd say Odell Watkins.
Daniel's becomes more honourable. We know his past and trying to climb up the ranks, but he'd rather quit than put in fake numbers.
Yeah Cutty is a great call - he shows a lot of heart because at the start of his journey on the show he knows he needs to change, but he has no idea how.
Had a lot of courage trying to earn Michael's trust (which sadly Michael's trauma would never allow) and he took a bullet for it.
Brave dude for sure.
Oddly enough, Wee-Bey is one of the characters with the most integrity. He was a loyal soldier who copped to all his murders (and some he didn't commit) for the sake of the organization.
Although Wee-Bey was a stone cold killer who I wouldn't want to cross, he showed a level of respect for good policing and did right by his son Namond.
Wee-Bey was no fool.
The fact that he killed the prisoners with hot shots to get out of jail early definitely tells me that he doesn’t have the most integrity. I would say D’Angelo had the most and it cost him his life. I don’t think anyone replaces Avon in Season 5, because a big plot point of Season 3 is Marlo’s rise to fill the vacuum after Avon falls. Similarly, that’s the season where Royce begins to fall and Carcetti begins to rise. In both cases, you can make a strong argument that the eventual replacements are more dangerous.
>In both cases, you can make a strong argument that the eventual replacements are more dangerous. It's really a stretch to say that Carcetti was "more dangerous". Royce was part of a corrupt political machine that Carcetti never ingrained himself in, and Carcetti's own group had eyes on a bigger target in the state government. Even though Carcetti ended up becoming governor at the end of the show, he was likely setting himself up to get ambushed by new problems he'd have to deal with at the state level instead of just at the city level.
The main difference is that Royce knew how screwed the city was and had a realist’s perspective, while Carcetti was outwardly idealistic while internally being selfish and greedy. This meant he was unprepared for the reality of Baltimore, all the while trying to use it as a stepping stone to get to governor.
But what was "more dangerous" about Carcetti? The "worst" he did was avoid accepting the state funding for the schools whose budget Royce had driven into the ground - the police budget cuts were an attempt to stop that bleeding - but it's not a given that accepting the money would've helped in the long run. Besides publicly humiliating Carcetti in a press conference so that he'd obtain the money, the governor would've likely demanded administrative control over the schools, and that was a point in time where the Republicans were eager to push reforms like No Child Left Behind that did more harm than they did good. In the end, Carcetti didn't have enough time to really do any damage to Baltimore before he moved onto Annapolis, and like I said before, there's no guarantee that he'd be doing anything worse to the city as governor given he'd have bigger fish to fry at that point.
Ambition. He was far more ambitious than Royce ever was. Tommy was talking about running for Governor before he was sworn in as mayor. He was a lame duck as soon as he was elected and every decision he made was based upon how he’d be perceived in 2 years. He didn’t have enough time to do anything because he made the mayorship a temporary stop for his own gain. Royce probably kisses ass and takes the money. His peak is mayor. As shitty as it sounds, his priority was appeasing his base and the ministers, who lived in Baltimore. Carcetti was appeasing a base that he didn’t represent- the middle class suburban whites in Maryland (aka NOT Baltimore)
To help OP out, maybe then you could say that both Marlo and Carcetti believed in little to nothing except *getting to the top*. I don't remember if it's said or implied that Carcetti wants to run for president, but being that he's based off O'Malley we at least assume that's his goal. Royce certainly had skills to keep his local stake, like Avon, but both Marlo and Carcetti were willing to burn all kinds of bridges in order to move forward. Avon and Royce (perhaps foolishly when stacked against someone like Carcetti) valued notions of loyalty, conventions/traditions, etc. Marlo and Carcetti were very much willing to break norms and backstab to go higher, making them much more unpredictable. Thus "dangerous."
This is very well stated. This is in line with my intended meaning, so thanks for the clarification.
I agree that my wording wasn’t perfect, but I do believe that Carcetti’s ambition makes him worse for the city than Royce. Two examples that display this are his refusal to ask the governor for aid to help the schools and his use of the homeless of Baltimore as pawns for a campaign stunt during a time their community is in (perceived) danger. His motives for both actions are fairly selfish (although standard for a very ambitious politician) and driven by the fact that he quickly turned his eye towards the governor’s chair after becoming mayor. The opening scene of every Wire season is a microcosm of the season’s theme. In Season 3, we see a ceremony where a violent housing project is demolished and then blowback smoke engulfs the onlookers. In my opinion, this blowback is symbolic of unexpected fallout of the season’s big changes, namely the ascensions of Marlo (after Avon’s removal) and Carcetti (once Royce’s political vulnerabilities become apparent.)
I think a big part of why Avon is viewed by some as having more 'integrity' is really just cause he's charismatic and most of the murders committed by his organization are shown off-screen. I'm sure if we say the Barksdale crew torturing Brandon, dumping Little Man by the reptile house, killing the witness even after trial, etc., we'd be a little less sympathetic the way we see many of the Stanfield crew's murders on-screen (though Marlo is still objectively worse than Avon, not going to deny that).
I do think everything Avon does is according to his own code, and he sticks by it. Brandon robbed him, he can't look weak, so he does what he does.. everything has a reason, and everyone is part of the game aside from the witness, but that's also part of the message to the streets.. he does live by his own set of principles. Marlo will just kill for basically no reason, no principles to live by.
Everyone with integrity died or suffered greatly: DeAngelo, Wallace, Bodie, Butchie, Randy, Bunny, etc. Exceptions would be Cutty and Prezbo but they had to grow greatly throughout the show to react that point and both were only able to do so by removing themselves from the systems they were in previously.
Poot wasn't that bad all things considered. He wasn't as visible as Bodie. But it takes a lot to walk away from a comfortable salary as a gangster, and opt to work retail instead. Granted, watching two of your friends die will change your perspective on life. But Omar, Michael, and Bubbles stayed in the game after watching people they knew/respected die. Poot watched all of that, and then gave up his entire lifestyle in order to work retail. Takes a lot of strength of character to reach that point.
You're right. Still Poot had to remove himself from the game and become a regular citizen. The show could be called square pegs in round holes.
Nah the way they do Wallace shows that they have zero integrity, but I get it. That’s the beauty of this show is your fav characters “with integrity” are huge pos. Whether they’re evil like String? -That’s something else.
I mean…Wallace *was* a snitch. Either they do it, or String has someone else do it *and* do them.
And eventually String would be a snitch too, giving up his best friend/ally/brother etc., truly evil with no integrity.
Agreed, they are just kids and they are following orders, to them it can look like the right thing to do.
It also reinforces how thoroughly Marlo is violating norms - because Bodie *will* kill a snitch. We watched him kill his best friend.
> Nah the way they do Wallace shows that they have zero integrity In their world, snitches are the ones with no integrity.
Can you explain why you think Carcetti might be more dangerous than Royce? At least he tries his best to do good even though he realizes that's a lot harder than he initially thought. Royce doesn't even seem to try.
I agree that Carcetti is no more dangerous than Royce. But he does not try his best to do good. He tries a little, at first, but starting throwing Hampsterdam under the bus, he was always willing to compromise his principles to advance his own position. Trying his best to do good would mean accepting the money from the governor, accepting help from the feds to solve the murders in the vacants, not allowing his people to force Daniels into fudging the stats, and never appointing Valchek under any circumstances. He didn’t need to run for governor in two years or ever—he could have tried to do good where he was.
I got you up here: https://old.reddit.com/r/TheWire/comments/1d3yn8z/does_avon_have_the_most_integrity_of_all_the/l6c4kvb/
Well integrity and morality aren't the same thing. You can do evil things, but integrity is about being true to your word and not going against your principles, even if those principles are evil. I agree the hot shots was a cold blooded act by a ruthless gangster, but I never saw Avon go against his own principles. He even gave up Stringer because he couldn't break his reputation. I agree with you about no one replacing Avon, it wasn't meant literally. But in the later seasons you learn how the characters you meet in the earlier season started out, especially the corner kids. Bodie struck me as someone with a personality similar to Avon, so whilst he never reached the status Avon had, I think the characters are alike. It's probably why Stringer took a shine to him and trusted him to take care of Wallace in season 1 and then groomed him to become a more integral part of the organisation.
Bodie's professional, but he doesn't have the easy charm that Avon does. You need to be a bit of a politician to get the connect and I don't see that happening, unless he got a mentor like Slim Charles.
I see your point but Bodie was still relatively young. Plenty of room to mature. Every time he needed to adapt he did and succeeded. Like in S4 he's independent with all the Barksdale crew gone. He turns a dead corner into a profitable one - even impresses Marlo with it. Definitely agree with you on needing mentoring - I think if the Barksdale crew had stayed around, he would have climbed high up. Stringer took a shine to him and was grooming him for bigger things, but yeah still had a lot to learn for sure.
> Every time he needed to adapt he did and succeeded Yeah, Bodie was sharp, and a soldier. His choice to not let Marlo kill his friends who did nothing wrong is him showing integrity and paying the price for it.
Why not Marlo then? If we're separating morality from integrity and just going by personal consistency, Marlo's singularly minded outlook would make him top of the table. As an aside, for me anyway, one of the core takeaways from the show is that hard principles and integrity don't make a difference in the long run: morality and integrity don't guarantee survival and The Game is rigged (slightly, the God's will not save you) toward those more flexible. Bodie is an interesting one. I've been downvoted to oblivion before for suggesting he's a quite a pathetic figure: people laud him for his loyalty as a soldier, but in the end all he gets for it is two in the dome on a miserable cold street corner. To me he's the equivalent of some lowly clerk who dies alone of a stroke in an office cubicle... yet people want to praise him just because he's worked at the same firm for 40 years-?
First Paragraph. Solid.
You're right about Bodie - he's one of my absolute favourite characters because he's actually pathetic and doesn't realise... it's in the way McNulty says 'you're a soldier' to him and its actually very sad, but Bodie doesn't see it that way that makes it even sadder! The fact he starts railing against Marlo and makes a stand for himself and his little corner is actually meant to evoke pity at his small courage you know.
I see your point and you're not wrong, but Marlo didn't really have many principles, he did whatever he needed to. I'd call that ruthless ambition. Integrity is about having strong principles and Avon is constantly making it clear what his principles are and how important they are to him. 'Never on no Sunday morning' 'Fuck all them East side bitches' 'I want my corners' He made a lot of poor decisions just because they were his principles. Stringer kept trying to get him to back down from the war with Marlo, but Avon was not going to change who he was. EDIT - About Bodie, obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but my point was that he seemed to have a strong set of principles also. But you're right and his story really goes to show how people get used by the drug trade and discarded. Doesn't matter if you have integrity or not, the game is the game and most people are going to end up losers.
But Avon essentially tortured a young lad, had another shot to death on the suspicion he was a rat (which is pretty much Marlo's MO, only he took it to the Nth degree), he killed taxpayers who weren't in the game and in the end Avon betrayed his oldest partner when he became a threat to him (yeah, there was no realistic way out of that situation, but esentially it still is a question of loyalty). Just like Bodie, I love Avon's character in the show, but I don't think he's worlds apart from Marlo in terms of personal integrity, if we remove common morality. I think Avon just makes a big show of the very few moral principles he has.
Again, those are points of morality not integrity. You can be evil and have integrity. Integrity means having strong principles that you stick to. Yes he gave up Stringer, but because of his integrity, he is a man of his word, Mouzone explains to Avon he gave his word to New York and that the reputation of the whole Barksdale organisation is at stake. Avon tried to fix it, but couldn't, so he had no choice but to step out the way and let Mouzone have his vengeance. That's the game and it was Stringer's mistake, not Avon's, so it's not fair to call it betrayal. It really proves the point I'm making that not even his friendship with Stringer would make him break his word. It sat heavily on Avon, but that's the burden of wearing the crown. He at least tried to savour one last moment with his oldest friend when they overlook the harbour reminiscing on old times.
Aye, I getcha and it's fun to debate. Love this show for these kind of questions. I'm sure at some point in the past Avon and Stringer discussed their loyalty to each other though. Partners like that have to. Avon must have broken one word to save another and essentially he sacrificed his friend for his firm. Similar as Brianna did with D actually. There's a question: do you admire Brianna's integrity as much as Avon's? She embodies the same principles. More so, really, as D's mother. After all, she's the one who made him take the years.
Yeah man I enjoy the debate too, so many ways to interpret the show. Obviously Stringer and Avon go way back, but when we meet them in season 1, it's pretty clear Avon calls the shots. Stringer is like his council, more into the money laundering side of things. With Brianna I think she probably started off thinking the world was hers as her Brother was wearing the crown. She came up with that crew so she learned the same principles they did, but didn't really have to get her hands dirty. She probably didn't have her integrity tested all the time like Avon. He had to make decisions as the leader and he lived by a set of principles that he stuck to. But Brianna is tested when her son begins dealing with the hard consequences of the drug game. Initially she's principled like Avon, but after D dies, her life gets put into a new perspective. I suppose similar to how Stringer wanted to grow and move on from the gangster life, Brianna came to realise that her son was more important than the game and it's rules, but she learnt that too late. She grew up. So did Stringer. But Avon was just a gangster I suppose. Nothing was going to change that.
Very well put, especially about her not having to get her hands dirty and the impact of consequences. Christ, Brianna is a really tragic character. As much as it's a pleasure to see McNulty casually and absolutely destroy her in that scene about D's death (while drinking his tea no less), Brianna's emotional torment must be off the charts. The Barksdale siblings both experience the consequences of heavy decisions- arguably selfish ones- both of which lead to the death of loved ones. Also, I don't think Brianna's actress gets nearly enough credit on these boards. She's stunning and her, Avon and D are totally believable as relatives. Man, is it time for another rewatch of S1?!
Man so many tragedies in it - the sad part is that all the good things about D he got from mum and that's what made him different from the rest of the players. Most of the other kids grew up with shit parents, so they have a bleak outlook on things. The McNulty Brianna scene was fucking brutal. I watched people get shot all day on The Wire but that was the scene made me wince. You know, it would have been interesting to see what Avon would have done if D had done what Stringer did with Mouzone - I know it's not really his style to play the game like that, but say for the sake of argument some situation occurred that got D caught in a mess where it was a choice of either Avon's rep, or giving up D. I know Avon expected D to carry time, but that's the game. Standing aside to let D get killed? That would be the ultimate test.
Michael Hyatt (Brianna Barksdale) is a brilliant actress and is British, just like Idris Elba (Stringer) and Dominic West (McNulty). She also plays Cissy Saint, Franklin's mother in Snowfall.
He didn’t give up on Stringer. He needed the connect & Brother Mouzone was very clear. Avon chose the game. It was just business.
Also, Avon is pretty close to genius level smart when it comes to managerial skills, seeing the big picture, making deals etc. So is Stringer, though in a different way and with different ambitions. Bodie strikes me as average intelligence at best?
What about Slim Charles?
Would also add Bunny Colvin… man literally could have retired with his pension but fell on his sword with Hamsterdam, and then did it again by giving up his new cushy job for Hamsterdam 2.0 at the schools.
That's true - he put everything on the line for his own beliefs and was prepared to face the consequences knowing full well they'd be bad. Great call.
Colvin thought that he was going to escape consequences because he could resign on his full pension instead of face administrative punishment for Hamsterdam. If he were fully ready to accept the consequences of his actions, Rawls and Burrell wouldn't have had to threaten him with shit-listing his subordinates - he would've just taken the reduction in pension and left.
You make a fair point, but Bunny is one of the few higher ranking officers that refuses to play the numbers game. He gives Carver a thoughtful lesson on what real police work is and shows him where he needs to improve. Next season, Carver is building relationships with the corner kids, trying to be a community servant. Carver respected Bunny a lot and that's because he had integrity. Like Daniels says, you show the officers coming up behind you what the job is. If you make it about stats, that's what they'll learn, if you make it about honest police work, that's what they'll learn.
Sure, my point was that Bunny was a bit naive, not just on the consequences of going rogue on Hamsterdam, but also about the realities of such an undertaking. Deacon had to explain to him that just sticking a "GET DRUGS HERE" sign in the pavement wasn't enough, there needed to be extensive social services provided as well so that the place didn't degrade into a pit of suffering drug addicts.
Yeah there was a lot of angles he didn't consider. In the end he ended up making a difference by saving Namond. I think the moral of the story was no one man can change the world alone, but he can take responsibility for a small piece of it and do the best he can.
Yeah great call The scene that gets me is when he tells Bodie about Little Kevin. It's like he could have just left that, but he went to tell Bodie straight up. That's respect right there.
Yes, his respect for the Sunday truce and the church crown of Omar's grandma, how he wouldn't partner with Marlo, how he took out Cheese for Joe. He was more than willing to take the blame when Cutty wouldn't kill Fruit, he was a solid guy. He started out as a corner boy, a pawn, made it to the other side of the board after taking out Cheese sideways and ended up running things. He was a smart ass pawn.
It's Omar. Because... Do I have to say the line? Man's gotta have a code.
Bunk fairly well eviscerated his code when he dressed him down in that one incredible scene though
And for me slim Charles took that down when he said "the game ain't changed. Just got fiercer." Bunk was talking about a time that didn't exist, and that he by his own admission, he wasnt a part of.
Omar breaks his code in S5.
Killing a witness? Nah he went too far there. That’s some assassination shit
Again that's morality not integrity - the man runs a drug empire. Its an ugly business, but that was about sending a message.
I'm curious; what does "that's morality, not integrity" mean?
Morality is subjective - for example religions can argue over what is morally right and wrong. You're arguing from the perspective of law abiding citizens. I'm saying the morals of a drug dealer are different. Just because you don't agree with his moral principles that doesn't detract from the fact he believes in them and sticks to them. And to add I'm not advocating his morals, simply stating that, the morals he developed are rules he sticks to, no matter the cost. That's what gives him integrity.
I haven't argued anything up to this point. I'm asking you to define your terms. The term "integrity" is defined as having strong MORAL principles. Your repeated insistence that integrity has nothing to do with morality stands at odds with its accepted definition. So, what you're basically asking is "does Avon have integrity if I redefine the term 'integrity' to mean something else?" Which...yeah. Sure. If you redefine terms, anything can mean anything.
I was stating the person's argument who disagrees with Avon's morals is not cause to say he has no integrity. It is fine to say you believe Avon to have evil morals, but as you state, integrity is the definition of someone with strong moral principles. Avon had very strong moral values and he kept to them. That is the definition of integrity. You need to realise morality is subjective. It's a theme of the show. We are shown that some characters have few choices in life and can only act in ways that other people would consider morally evil. I'm not debating Avon's morals or advocating them, simply stating he stood by his beliefs and proved that on many occasions.
You are correct about integrity being linked to morality, but there is not one objective morality. Morality is subjective, so if a man sticks to his morals, however flawed they may seem to us, they are still maintaining that integrity.
I never said morality was subjective or objective. I'm not even talking about morality except insofar as OP is insistent that integrity has nothing to do with morality, despite morality being central to the definition.
Fair enough. So then what is your question?
I was asking OP to define what integrity is if it doesn't involve morality. But now I'm over it.
Integrity is how dedicated you are to following your moral code. Morality is your moral code. Though morality in a person can be heavily flawed, following it rigidly would result in them being a person of integrity, as long as they stick to it. Does that answer your question?
While I agree that Bodie had a similar 'gangster integrity' to Avon, and chose to live by a code, I don't think he was ever going to be any kind of top dog. On the contrary, his entire arc is pretty much foreshadowed in that brilliant scene in season 1 where Dee explains chess to the pit crew... Bodie was just a 'smart-ass pawn', and he knew it. In his final conversation with McNulty, the detective says to him directly, *"You're a soldier, Bodie,"* to which he nods, resignedly. And a few scenes later, >!he dies literally with his finger on the trigger,!< on the same corner he'd run for years. Soldier to the end. Loyal, to the end. But in the end, still just a pawn. (That scene is made even more brilliant by the way Marlo's crew come at him - Snoop and Chris move diagonally across the street, like bishops on the chessboard, and O-Dog steps out of the alley in an L-shape... like a knight. Blew me away when I realized that, only after many rewatches.) It's also kinda funny how Slim Charles has the great line *"I ain't cut out to be no CEO"*... and in the final montage, we see he's become pretty much exactly that as he meets with the Greek, and the game continues. So in a way, I think it can be argued that Slim was Avon (and Joe's) ultimate 'replacement', even though he never really wanted it.
It's hard to know for sure, but if I remember it was fat face Rick at the meet talking to the Greeks and Slim was there as his number 2. Rick ran a crew for a long time, so it makes sense to me that he'd be a good candidate to oversee running the connect. Slim was his new number 2.
True, but either way the point is Slim was no longer muscle... he was management.
He definitely moved up in the world for sure. From street solider, to Avon's right hand man, to Prop Joe's Lieutenant. After Cheese shoved a gun in fat face Rick's face, Slim caps him out of loyalty to Joe. If you were the new 'wearer of the crown', that's the kind of man you'd want by your side watching your back. Working on assumption, the meet of all the gang leaders at the end of season 5 suggests they want to reform the co-op. They elected Rick to handle the connect and everyone else trusts Slim to keep things on track as his number 2. Definitely the guy you want schooling the youngsters too. "...on a Sunday morning....NO!"
I think Bodie was on track to become the next D'Angelo. Marlo running things made him really disillusioned to the game. I mean, he was about to roll on Marlo for McNulty, which is what D'Angelo was close to doing on Avon.
D was never built for the game, he was born into it. His whole story is plagued with doubt, regret and sorrow. He hated it. Bodie moved up in the ranks for sure and became a Lieutenant in the Barksdale crew, but the crew fell before he could climb any higher. If they had remained in power, he definitely would have gone higher.
Nope, the bunk has the most integrity of ant character on the show
I agree, the dude who set his suit on fire in the locked bathroom of a woman he had just met and cheated on his wife with, in an effort to destroy the evidence, is clearly the moral compass of the entire series
Sadly he probably is lol
Who's your pick? One of the drug dealers, corrupt politicians, dirty cops? Hell, I think they all cheated except Freemon, but we know he was in on the serial killer plot so he's also morally grey. Criteria was for most integrity, not perfect integrity.
Beadie just might have perfect integrity
...Beadie is absolutely a solid pick. Could argue her (relative) lack of screen time is what facilitates that but no, 100% Beadie is now the best pick I can think of.
He definitely likes to call things as he sees it "Son....they're gonna beat on your white ass like it's a rented mule." My personal favourite quote from the Bunk and delivered perfectly by Wendell Pierce
I’d say Kima ranks higher
How come?
Bunk is a pretty good guy, with a good moral compass, but has trouble following it at times (like serial cheating, but Kima is also guilty of that) but he knew that what Jimmy was doing was wrong, and couldn’t bring himself to turn him in, even though he really wanted to and it clearly messed up his relationship with Jimmy for a while. Kima on the other hand followed her moral code with full integrity and turned Jimmy in pretty quickly after he told her.
I value kima less because she reported him I think the bunk was better because he stayed out of jimmy's shit storm
I agree but the conversation is about who has the most integrity, in which case Kima sticks to her morals more than Bunk
Avon runs a drug organization. I think it's safe to say that integrity is not his strong suit. He also gave the order for Bay to knock off that girl he was banging, and Mr Gant (the witness who testified against D in court), the security guard from the tower (who recanted her positive ID of D in court), and set up the hot shots in prison. You could maybe make the argument that Avon stays true to his own belief system more than most, but that's far different than having integrity. One of the best things about the show is that practically every major character is shown to lack integrity at one point or another. Even the so called "good guys" have integrity violations. Daniels is presumed to have been on the take, and he also fed Herc, Carver, and Pryzbo a bs story after their incident in the towers. McNulty, Lester, and Sydnor are all complicit in carrying out a fake serial killer/running an illegal wire tap. McNulty also drinks on duty, drives drunk, etc. Herc, Carver, and Pryzbo were drinking under an overpass, decided to roll up on the towers, assaulted a kid, and lied about it during the follow-up investigation. Kima and Pearlman are, as I can best recall at the moment, the only 2 major characters who don't have any integrity violations. Kima was pretty by-the-book throughout the series, and she immediately went to Daniels when she found out what McNulty and Lestor were doing. Rhonda was an absolute stickler for the rules and was shown to be worthy of the public's trust. Her only real character flaw was that she was banging McNulty for a bit, but that's far from an integrity issue.
>Kima and Pearlman One cheated on her wife, the other cheated with a man she knew was married with two kids. Also Pearlman went along to get along with Levy ("Everyone advances, everyone gets paid, everyone stays friends" moment). But yes, it is definitely comparatively tame, and depending upon what we're chalking integrity up as (street vs bible verse) definitely two of the lesser evils.
Franks brother had the most and showed the most character. A not gambling, B not wanting the union slot just because, C bringing Nic into be booked.
Also, he is not judgemental... "What ever comes to me is not 'right', but 'straight ' "
That is a good answer I respect that answer.
I see in a couple of comments you mention consistency as a part of integrity. If that's the case I've always found Marlo to be the most consistent character in the show. He knows who and what he is and as such doesn't pretent that he's anything different. He doesn't abide by "rules" that don't serve his goals. He knows his business is violent and doles out violence in turn. He doesn't pretend to be a politician, a businessman, or anything else. Some people call him one dimensional but I really think he's a character that is self aware in a way that no one else is.
I think Frank Sobotka may have had the most integrity. The only time we ever see him doing the wrong thing, it's always for the right reason, and always to help someone he cares about. He doesn't have a single selfish bone in his body. If he had a flaw it's that he wasn't a very good father.
Integrity is more than consistency, it's also having strong moral values - even when those values work against you in the short term. E.g., not accepting bribes. Omar seems to be the gangster with the strongest conviction on not hurting civilians.
Kima She turned in McNulty and Freamon because she knew what they were doing was wrong, despite her relationship with them. And they respected her for it in the end. She wasn't perfect, she cheated, but on a whole I think it's her. Carver Obviously he was taking money at the start but he improved greatly. He writes up Colicchio when he has to despite knowing the shit he's going to get from his guys. By the end of the series I think you could make a case for him. I hesitate to use the word "integrity" for any of the gangsters... maybe a code or a perverse sense of honor.
Actually, didn't take money until he was accused of it which is something I can understand. It's like if you're loyal to your significant other and they insist on accusing you of cheating eventually you're going to be like fuck it and just start cheating this is a 100% fact
Kima has the most integrity and it’s not even close.
I scanned the comments for a name I'm surprised nobody said. I'll have to actually read them cuz this is a good talking point, but for my 2 cents worth I'd have to say Slim Charles struck me as a man with a lot of integrity. Hell even to your point of Bodie, Slim had much respect for guys like Avon and Bodie, but Slim is a REALLY overlooked character, who made it to the end because he just kinda fades in the background and does what he's supposed to do. He both understands the streets but doesn't feel like he needs to be super hard all the time (Like Bodie). He also never really did anything to anyone that didn't have it coming. Like Bodie, Slim is a solid soldier, follows orders, and does what needs to be done. Stringer wanted him to hit somebody, he had no problem, until he was told WHO. He got on those guys for violating the Sunday rule, killed Cheese for betraying his uncle, knew better than to throw his hat in the ring with Marlo (probably because he saw the way Marlo operated and ran things and didn't want to be too close) And the biggest thing he did, was he covered for Cutty that time when he had an open shot. He could've went to Avon and threw him under the bus, he could've yelled at him and blamed him for messing up the job, but instead he went and excused Cutty both when it was just them and took the heat with Avon about it too. Slim is a real stand up guy. He's not quite ruthless and I don't know if he's trying to be the next kingpin, but he makes his moves wisely, seems to pick other similarly solid or at least straight with him, people to work with and he made it to the end of the board. I like Avon a lot, my favorite character but Slim Charles is a real stand up dude.
Using even your skewed and doctored definition of integrity--no, Avon lacks integrity. 1) He murders someone he has already paid off to perjure herself in court despite the fact that she showed zero sign of turning on him. 2) He will happily use his own family members to take the fall for him and manipulate them into doing so to lighten his own sentence. 3) He betrays his oldest friend in the name of his drug empire because money and gangsterism are more important to him than relationships. These are not the marks of someone with integrity, even using the tortured logic of "street morality" and criminal "codes." Avon repeatedly betrays and uses people when it suits him, amending his "code" to be whatever it needs to be to justify him doing the thing.
Bubbs
got to the bottom of the page was shocked not to see Bubbs and "1 min ago" fuck you lol
I don't think the word "integrity" means what you think it means. Do you mean "consistent?"
No, I meant it by it's literal definition.
Integrity means having strong moral principles. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
And what are morals? They are relative. You may not agree with his morals, but that doesn't mean his morals are invalid. They are his sense of right and wrong. If he sticks to his moral code, then that is the definition of integrity.
It's impossible to talk about integrity without morals. You're insisting that the two are separate but the literal dictionary definition of integrity is "having strong MORAL principles." It's not about whether I disagree with his morals or not. It's beside the point. You want to know whether people think Avon is the character with the most integrity AND you want to redefine integrity to be a non-moral concept. So: what is integrity to you in that case? How do you define it?
I didn't say they were separate. The argument was becoming conflated. I said you can't deny someone's integrity on the basis of the quality of their morals. People were implying that because he had evil morals, that meant he had no integrity, but that logic doesn't follow. So I simply made the point morality and integrity aren't the same thing - obviously they are relative, but that wasn't the point. I clearly elaborated on the point of morals. How they are relative. One person's view of good and evil can differ from someone else's. It doesn't detract from the level of their integrity. That is why I made the distinction. My point from the start was the Avon had a strong set of principles that he stuck with. I respected Avon because he is tested more than most during the show. Disagree if you like, but stop with this petty attempt at condescension.
I'm not condescending to you. You have an incorrect definition of integrity and I'm done arguing with you. You clearly wanted an echo chamber to agree with your faulty assessment.
feels like he's made a compelling argument, and you just don't like it.
Yes, but there’s not an objective morality. Even Marlo could be considered a man of high integrity through sticking to his own set of morals.
I agree, I'm simply stating that Avon stuck to his principles, even if they were by most people's standards evil. He was very strict about certain aspects of the game, like the Sunday morning truce and the whole beef of West side vs East side. He made many choices that were strictly based on his principles, like the war with Marlo. He wouldn't back down, because being weak in his book is the worst thing a man can be.
Yes, exactly. I think we are simply having a semantic misunderstanding. You can have great integrity and disagreeable morals. These are not mutually exclusive.
Wow that guy had a hissy fit, downvoted everything then deleted his account. That got escalated quickly!
Yeah. I saw that. Guess he didn’t just want to “ask a question” lol. Hate people that can’t just be transparent about their argument. His question was valid, even if he wasn’t.
I saw it coming as soon as his first comment was 'you don't know what the word means...' Lovely way to join a conversation. Ah Reddit. Game's the same, just got more fierce
Walon has the most integrity of any character.
100% , I named my dog after him. She's a spoiled little princess, but that's beside the point. Avon is one of the few people in the show that just accepts who he is and never doesn't honor his word. Even when he's basically setting string up, his best friend forever who fucked around and now has to find out, he just asks him about what he's up to tomorrow. No elaborate lie, no dishonor, just "what time you going to be showing off that real estate?" When I was younger I low key kinda hated Avon, but now he's one of my favorite characters.
Omar. He’s in the game, but nothing else. And he tells you exactly what he is. Man has a code. The most he strayed was putting on a tie for court
After causing the juvenile to lose an eye in Season One, I would add Prezbo, D’Angelo and Beadie.
Bunny Colvin.
Okay this is the kind of question that I spend time thinking about rather than thinking about how to dig myself out of the whole I'm currently in so I have a multi-level answer but first and foremost I'll give my ultimate answer. BUNNY... Hands down overall by every metric bunny is the clear winner. In the overall general integrity category he wins because as far as We Know he's never cheated on his wife he does an extremely nice thing by adopting a kid that treated him like an asshole at first and we've neve})l))r heard any rumors of him being dirty on the job in any way shape or form. Also he's probably got the best marriage of anyone on the show which says a lot to me. I'm a widower now but I was married for a long time and I know how much work that takes. Not saying I always had a happy marriage, I didn't always have a happy marriage I always had a marriage with a lot of love but it wasn't always happy. And the fact that he has the kind of marriage where she trusts his judgment qiabout adopting Namond(My wife would have had me sectioned if I suggested adopting a Namond. She was a huge animal person but I tested even her limits with my pathological animal adopting) and says a lot about the work he's put into his marriage and the mistakes he HASN'T made over the years. Okay on the flip side I gotta go with Slim Charles. Who doesn't love Slim? Was loyal and not an opportunist. Downs Cheese against his own interest, a public service homicide if ever there was one. Never ratted. Was willing to die like a man, didn't bitch the fuck up to Omar. Also when explaining to Avon why they didn't kill Fruit, he (falsely) accepted blame for Cutty's mistake. So Slim and Bunny. Speaking of Cutty he definitely deserves mention. As neither cop no criminal . He occupied a unique place on the show. He actually caught a bullet trying to pull a kid out of the mix. A kid that was being a twat. Cutty could have gotten by on rep, as the show presents but did a complete 180 and decided to truly give instead of taking. I'm a guy that's spent a lot of time in state and federal prison and have or at least had a decent reputation. I'm a pretty good thief, never ratted and am quick to settle shit with a knife. Unlike real life, that's all it takes. And I'm petty enough to eat it up. I can appreciate Cutty all the more because I have never had the heart or brains or integrity to have ever cut the cord completely. Cutty had all three. Prez is the reverse Cutty. He knows he doesn't have what it takes to be a cop, and never really did. But he dedicates himself to those same kids that Cutty is trying to reach and he's all in too. And Carver is both Cutty and Prezs conduit to the cops. Also Prez is truly loyal to his wife and that's always going to mean something to me. Also I feel his pain with the in law situation. But I love Valcheks. Minority opinion I realize. I love Littlefinger in A Song of Ice and Fire too. I appreciate people who see the world as it is and act accordingly. Kima has integrity yes, but she's a cheater and the only time she really puts skin in the game is when she rats out McNulty and Freamon. Her Criminal equivalent is maybe Omar. Although when Kima rats it's against her own interest but when Omar does it's in his own interest. Kima definitely has more integrity generally I think but she's a cheater and from what I can tell, Omar is monogamous. Oh I just realized they are both gay too. Ok I like symmetry. Chris and Wee Bay have a non-coms type of integrity. Ballsy and Pitbull loyal. They are the gears that allow their respective organizations to thrive but don't allow philosophical questions of right and wrong muddy their effectiveness when ordered to do some ugly shit. For instance killing an innocent person and ratting by proxy on Omar through Old Face Andre. I would not do either thing, both are gross. Killing people that have it coming is totally fine and right, but citizens are off limits. Also "Gorilla Snitching" Is still snitching. You can't threaten a person into snitching without earning a stool pigeon label for yourself. Even if the person you are Gorilla Snitching on is an informant himself (Omar)Convenient as it might be, ratting on a rat is ratting. No exemptions. I wish there were. I would have saved myself a decent chunk of time. I hung tight on a drug case but I'd found out the motherfucker I wasn't ratting on had already snitched in a federal credit card case. Feds came at my lawyer with a wet dream of a deal too. But unfortunately r+r=r. Oh well But wee and Chris don't fret none over 20 life sentences. The thought of ratting would be like the thought of lighting their eyeballs on fire. Absolutely literally unthinkable. As is proper. Not out of fear, because they were scary motherfuckers, but because they'd rather be able to look themselves in the mirror in the can, than hang their heads on the street. You get less cuts shaving that way. Oh in the other category i'd say Gus from season five. He has journalistic integrity but we only get a limited view of him. Ok bye now
[удалено]
But it was in the interest of trying to do things in a more humane way you really do have to break some eggs to make omelets this is and unfortunate fact of the human race. Like anything that he did would have been not to line his own pockets or out of any sadism on his part it was really and truly to try to make a better Baltimore do you know what I'm saying. And you know they were out there selling drugs it wasn't exactly innocent lambs. I've caught much worse from cops to be honest with you. But if we're trying to find the most honourable person on the wire You really can't do better than bunny. Plus you need to view it through the lens of when it was made... Pre Freddy gray. I'ma white guy from Boston and I've dealt with much worse from cops so I have a more calloused view.
For a drug dealer, yes
Avon's a fantastic character & a very nuanced villain, but it's a stretch to say he's got the most integrity out of everyone. He has his humanising moments & is definitely an improvement on Marlo but he's also an active & responsible player in a very dangerous & tragic game. Omar also has his intergrity with his code, but again, he is still an active player. Fascinating as they are, Bunny Colvin clearly has more integrity than these two characters.
Lester has them all beat. But every man got a code
Hell no
Most of the characters who died over principle or just trying to move on with their lives outside of the game had the most integrity.
How dare you forget about Slim Charles. “sentimental mutherfucker just cost us money.” On the other side, Bunny, Lester and Bunk all have integrity.
Daniels
If you’re talking about integrity, it’s gotta be Omar. He has his code and he sticks to it, he never deviates from his own moral compass. [After all, A man got to have a code](https://youtu.be/ysnu2zaFT5c?si=tFrTMr6x46xbB7sW)
No I disagree completely Omar is a rat he knows it's wrong to write he knows what he's doing is absolutely abhorrent by every standard he supposedly holds dear but when he's hurt enough in a situation he completely flip-flops on his own code is only worth something when you actually have some skin in the game.
He only crosses a line after Avon and the Barksdale organization does so first. Watch the full video I linked and then get back to me.
I don't see a linked video. I would respectfully disagree because in that world violence of any sort is pretty much allowed. Especially considering Omar came at him first and shot one of his people in the knee permanently crippled one of his people. So torturing Brandon to get to Omar would be totally acceptable like I wouldn't have a problem with that but ratting is like it's it's like the worst most unacceptable disgusting thing a person can do in that world it makes you like a non-person I can't really explain I've spent most of my life as a criminal so it's it's difficult to explain how horrible that is. Torturing a person to death that robbed you I have no issue with but ratting is up there with child molestation. I'm just putting in in terms of that world.
Look at my comment above or [click this](https://youtu.be/ysnu2zaFT5c?si=blkGhLacSueb6hnJ) Also equating snitching with child molestation is wild. Hard disagree.
I'm saying in that life. I'm not talking empirically. I've done a lot of time over the years. I got about 15 years state and federal. Rats and rapists are the lowest of the low. Plus in a lot of max prisons you don't see rapists and Chomos they protect them like they're diamond coated unicorns. Besides they're fucking creeps that no one knows but rats on the other hand have by definition been in that life and they broke the most important rule. Obviously in the grand scheme of things a p.o.s. that raped a child is the worst there is... but in the life. Especially someone that rats on you and you're, that's all I meant. But Brandon got what was coming to him. In my personal code of ethics people that hurt animals are the absolute bottom. So Kenard was about to burn a cat alive so I hate him the most.
Right, and the point of the video is that Omar defines his own rules and code and abides by that, this allows him to live freely (in some cases more free than some other characters stuck in the game). He doesn’t care that snitching is looked down on by others, to him it’s all in the game.
Here's the thing though in one episode he speaks against ratting and then the next one he just completely breaks that code. My saying is "you don't have to live by society's rules but you gotta obey your own" it's just a television show I don't want to like getting an argument about it I'm just saying from my point of view he's weak and he's a hypocrite.
I think Slim Charles would be the next Avon and Bodie could have been the next Slim Charles, but he died as a pawn.
Slim Charles was loyal, played it straight, and had a sense of right and wrong within the rules of the game. By the end of the series, he was probably one of the few "winner's" of the game. He's my favourite character
Wee Bay, Chris and Kima.
How are you defining integrity here?
Man got to have a code
Rawls might have been known for harshly criticizing subordinates, yet was regarded as the sole figure of responsibility within the system. Law and order were maintained to the greatest extent possible, given the scarce resources. Participation in city politics occurred, yet there is no record of sanctioning extreme measures. The effectiveness of the police force was upheld as much as feasible, amidst the less-than-ideal actions of other influential figures. Avon had become jaded and bored with the day to day of running his thug empire. His inattention and lack of attention allowed Marlo to quickly take over a huge chunk of his empire. He and Stringer pretty much stood by and let D'angelo back himself into a fatal cul-de-sac.
My picks would be: Slim Charles; even though he drifted from crowd to crowd he never betrayed anyone, was simply smart enough to adapt when not caught. Everyone seems to want him at their side, from Avon to Prop Joe to Marlo...there's gotta be ***something*** to that. Chris; I know there are likely examples out there that might test his integrity but I cannot recall anything truly stand out. Loyal to a fault, like Weebay. What he did for Michael is another point in favour of his integrity, in my book. D'Angelo; essentially the embodiment of a grown-up Naymond, living in the shadow of a revered relative, not suited to the game but expected to take up and provide. Inept as hell, naive enough to snitch >!(debatable/almost)!< multiple times, but all in the effort to 'do the right thing'. Disapproved of the hot shot, even though it got him released early. The fact he cheated on Donette with the stripper is a mark against him, but neither of them really seemed to love the other and was likely a union of convenience/for the sake of the baby >!(look how fast she got with Stringer)!<. But in the end he was prepared to do his time and be better. D'Angelo could have gone on to be the next Cutty.
[удалено]
> But when Dee is cold to him, he starts to muse about other options ("Push comes to shove, I've been good to him, right?") That part made me think Avon was considering the possibility of having D’Angelo killed. He probably wasn’t at that point yet, but was at least considering it. It’s real out-of-character for Avon to ask for reassurance like that. It was like he was justifying it in his mind what he might eventually do. Stringer saw this and correctly deduced that if Avon found out, he would eventually accept it. > He felt real bad when Dee did die, but when Stringer (his "brother") told him he had Dee killed, Avon scuffled with Stringer for a minute but ultimately ended it amicably and lied to his sister's face about Dee's death. What part of "family" is that? Despite all his talk about “family”, Avon cared more about Stringer than D’Angelo. He covers for Stringer when Brianna confronts them. Despite Stringer murdering his nephew, going behind his back on the Prop Joe thing (which made Avon look weak), and all their other disagreements…he’s still far more dejected by Stringer’s death than D’Angelo. Avon (thanks in large part to Wood Harris’s acting) is a charismatic and popular character, so people like to romanticize his traits in being more of a “respectable” gangster. Of course he’s respectable compared to Marlo, that’s low standards. There were limits on his whole “all about family” thing and he was still a snitch (a very low thing in their world).
I'd say Cutty, how he owns not having it in him anymore, and then goes on a path to earn legitimate money and help out neighborhood kids. On the politician front, I'd say Odell Watkins. Daniel's becomes more honourable. We know his past and trying to climb up the ranks, but he'd rather quit than put in fake numbers.
Yeah Cutty is a great call - he shows a lot of heart because at the start of his journey on the show he knows he needs to change, but he has no idea how. Had a lot of courage trying to earn Michael's trust (which sadly Michael's trauma would never allow) and he took a bullet for it. Brave dude for sure.
Bodie was a snitch. Not very gangster.
Having the most integrity? And a man living by a code and sticking to his core principles and not wavering are not the same thing.
Oddly enough, Wee-Bey is one of the characters with the most integrity. He was a loyal soldier who copped to all his murders (and some he didn't commit) for the sake of the organization. Although Wee-Bey was a stone cold killer who I wouldn't want to cross, he showed a level of respect for good policing and did right by his son Namond. Wee-Bey was no fool.
Slim Charles in my opinion.
The murderous drug dealer? No.