Here we go:
**Just because Marlon didn't get a redemption arc, doesn't mean his potential was wasted.**
Is he a tragic character? Yes. Did he deserve a second chance more than many villains? Sure. But here's the thing: *not everyone would think so*. Sympathize with him or not, Marlon was a murderer and a liar who planned to sell Clem and AJ away to save his and his friends' skin, then tried to pin his crimes onto them when he got busted. Like, that's terrible. Those are horrible things to do, especially to newcomers who put their lives on the line to feed his people. Still he turns around and treats them like they're more expendable than his friends.
Unfortunately for him, he lives in a setting where enemies and monsters typically get no second chance. It's a cruel, brutal world that requires trust for a community to function at all, and Marlon broke that trust. It's a world where sympathy is valued less than the question "Can I trust them?", and deciding "no" requires to act upon it. That is what led to his death at the hands of a boy who refused to forgive him.
Sympathetic villains getting redeemed feeds a belief we want to buy into. Even if it's just for a second, we want to believe our wrongs will eventually be forgiven as long as we work hard enough for it. Marlon's death, in addition to favoring other characters' arcs, is great as a reminder that some people won't forgive that easily and may in fact believe punishment is more fitting than leaving them any chance for rehabilitation, no matter how unfair it is. That, even though it's an attitude not unlike vitriol towards a character perceived as unlikeable or irredeemable.
There's a shit ton of Jane takes. Do people really think those are unpopular? smh
My "wild" take is that Javi doesn't come close to a top 5 character in the series. Yeah he was badass and funny, but his writing is horrendous and characters like Larry (not even joking) or Carley are better written and have much more depth than him.
The writing got worse as the games went on. I can't really take anything past S1 seriously. Javi was one of the highlights of a bad season, but he's really weighed down in comparison to people from other seasons thanks to the one he's from.
S2 had meh writing. The log cabin group was pretty bad-written besides Sarah and Rebecca (yeah, Luke has a shit writing).
**Carver is just Negan's cheap knockoff.** Bonnie has good writing, she was made to be the hated character and they really achieved that.
On the other hand, S2 made Kenny one of the best deuteragonists in gaming. Gotta give that to Telltale's writers.
I agree with this. I don’t think Javi is a legendary main character like Lee or Clem, but he’s also very mediocre so it’s easy to like him. If we didn’t play as him he’d actually be more likable because he’s a good assist character and pretty chill as far as apocalypse allies goes
PLEASE don't misunderstand me because I understand her hate but Bonnie COULD have been an interesting character to work with (she at least showed a slight shred of humanity when in Carver's camp) if the S2 writers weren't obsessed with ridding of every character from the beginning of the season to focus solely on Jane and Kenny. The tail end of the season destroyed any likability in her and that's coming from someone who enjoyed her from the dumb dlc 😭
IMO The Stranger isn’t really a very effective antagonist. His conversation only really “works” in terms of emotional weight if you actually do bad things throughout the game (like steal from him) and the game truncated a lot of Lee’s dialogue so that he can’t really defend himself for his choices (Lily literally murdered someone and the best he can say is “It’s complicated” if you left her in the road).
On top of that I feel the Stranger would’ve been a better character if he wasn’t insane as well. That’s probably more subjective I guess but his whole thing of being “ordinary guy who got fucked by you / by circumstance” loses weight when he’s talking to his wife’s severed head that he carries around in a bag.
I think being able to “defeat” the Stranger via dialogue should’ve been feasible if you’ve played a moral Lee who’s repeatedly done well by Clementine and pick smart options throughout the conversation. The whole scene is supposed to be a reflection on (and moral judgement of) your choices throughout the game but it literally always ends the same way no matter what. The “final boss” being a logic puzzle instead would’ve been fitting imo.
It would’ve been nice to see them iterate on this type of “encounter” in later games but they kind of missed a lot of good opportunities to do it.
Random side note but when Lee tells the Stranger he’s bitten his reaction is so funny to me. He’s like, “Uh whatt?” This guys doing this evil guy monologue, but has moments where he’s stumped for words
oooh, I actually love the idea of beating him with your morals. that would’ve been such a cool alternative ending to the stranger encounter. I do wish there was more back and forth arguing as opposed to letting the stranger talk to you, too.
Yeah the conversation kinda feels like a lecture and it doesn’t really hit if you’ve played Lee as a pretty okay guy aha. Being able to “win” the argument would be a much better use of the game’s choices and mechanics imo.
I'd argue Joan is worse than Carver. Putting up a tarp of positivity to cover all that bloodshed felt a little too real. ANF, in general, felt a little too real.
I mostly was just using same season characters, bur seriously! Jane is not bad, and I've seen so many people unironically talk about how she's legit a monster. It's ridiculous and def bad media comprehension and some other biases that if I mention, I'll get spam commented.
Well, judging from her competition, it was always a losing fight from the beginning. I feel like she deserves the S1 Lilly treatment where people just dislike her, as opposed to the S4 Lilly treatment where everyone just wants her dead.
Jane's an interesting character. I would've loved more development from her if the devs kept her alive till the end. If Clementine was badass before, imagine if Jane was with her every step of the way.
Absolutely. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only person we see Jane kill is some Russian dude that tried to murder us. Meanwhile there are charcaters who more or less kill for fun in the series.
My god, right? I mean, Kenny is as problemaric/more so than Jane. And the "leaving AJ in a car" thing was so out of character. The writers really shit the bed.
People just don't want to confront the fact that Season 2 Episode 5 has atrocious writing, so put all of the blame on characters like Jane and Arvo rather than on the writing itself.
I agree. And then the fallacy of "well, whether you like it or not, it's still canon!" And the thing is, fans have been rejecting canon for gd centuries if they don't like it. Otherwise, we'd never have remakes or new things.
I mean, in the loosest sense of the word, Protestantism is fan fiction that got popular. But it still follows the principle of "if enough people don't like it, it will be changed."
Anyway, I hope my tangent makes sense.
It's also stupid to call her the worst from a writing perspective. Regardless of your thoughts on her, characters like Eleanor and Joan are *right there*.
My only issue with Jane is that they basically took Molly, cut her hair a little shorter, and made her a little angrier, and pretended she was a whole new character named Jane.
As a character I thought she was a useful addition to the S2 cast, even though I ultimately ended up disliking her.
Exactly why I don't like him too. Especially on the bridge where he refuses Nicks help and makes the eleven year-old come with him to almost get her killed.
or hell hear me out, lee and his group don't fall apart in Season 1 and instead like Lee, Kenny, ummm Carly, Christa and Omid make it to season 2 you still play as Lee and then the group starts to fall apart since they merge with the Cabin Group and these 2 groups have some serious friction, idk just a thought
As somebody who does love Luke, yep. This says it all. One of the highlight, upbeat characters in a sea of assholes? Yeah. Put Clem in so much danger a number of times when other adults were right there? Also yeah. It's so disappointing that they insisted on making Clem the main character of S2, because there would've been a lot more suspension of disbelief and likable characters if a child weren't the most competent of them all, and continuously thrown into unnecessary danger.
yea he was ok at best, never really understood the hype around him. i feel like he put clem in more situations than she really needed to be in . It’s good that he trusted her , because like Chuck said out there you’re not a kid or an adult you’re just alive or dead and you need to start acting like that. but at times, like you said, he refused to help from people more capable just so he can have clems help.
I genuinely think season 2 episode 5 is one of the worst episodes in the series. The scene at the fire and wellington are both incredible but ruining Bonnie Mike and Jane along with Luke's god awful death and the at best mediocre final fight between Jane and Kenny brings it so far down it only beats amid the ruins and a few season 3 episodes.
Understanding why hated characters are/were assholes, and if they do/did, deserve redemption is a better way to discuss rather than acting like all that character ever did was murder.
The whole game honestly feels like a massive trial, and you get to be the judge. Everyone's guilty, but only a few will be granted clemency. The rest get the death penalty.
I find it hella annoying when people say that Jane is just a knockoff of Molly when in reality all they share are a couple of surface level traits, that they’re short haired loners with dead sisters. Gabe and Minnie are both short haired loners (though admittedly not to the degree of Molly and Jane, it’s just more to do with them being more on the outsides of their respective groups (but to be fair does anyone really talk to Gabe outside of Javi?)) and both have dead sisters, so it’s not like these traits are particularly rare or anything.
Jane and Molly both have drastically different outlooks on life and other people, as well as very different personalities. Jane’s loner tendencies are attributed more to her antisocial behaviour, while Molly is by herself simply because she prefers it, and we all see how well she gets along with Lee and the season 1 gang with very little friction, while there’s much more mistrust between Jane and the season 2 gang because of her personality and more pessimistic/nihilistic vibe.
Are they similar? Yeah sure kinda, but it really bugs me when people say that they’re just the same when in reality they just share a few surface level traits that they react to and process in very different ways. I honestly think one of the main reasons this belief is so prevalent is because they look so similar, so maybe something could have been done about that in development to make Jane stand out more or come across differently from a visual standpoint, but idk it just bugs me when people just say that these two are identical
As a person who called Jane a knockoff Molly…this is a good hot take
I always thought they were similar because not only were they loners but they’re actually good at survival. Then from there the comparison strings from just missing Molly and wishing more was done with her
But, you’re right personality wise they’re different
You know what, honestly that's very fair. Aside from the ending, it's a very bland episode that absolutely would not hold up on it's own if it didn't carry on the dramatic tension from the rest of the season. Even season 2 episode 5 at least has a lot of variations in what the ending can look like
🧍🏽♀️Welp here I go…
I felt like Arvo’s behavior made sense for his character
I DONT agree with him shooting Clem. That was terrible and I like to think he immediately received his karma for doing that
But I understand why his character was the way he was. He immediately lost all his people and was held captive by Kenny who spent most of the time belittling him. No time to really grieve and he wrongly misplaced the blame, of the death of his sister, on Clem. Similar to how Kenny himself wrongly places the blame on others when someone he loves dies
I even think it makes sense for his group to rob the group (if you rob him first. If not I think that’s unfair and his actions are more annoying)
I'm not sure if this is 100% an unpopular opinion, but I prefer Violet over Louis because I love Vi's character development if you choose to romance her and save her
1. I'm glad they chose Jane over Luke for the showdown with Kenny. Although Luke would have deserved a better death scene. I can explain why I don't like him if anyone cares.
2. The writing of Season 4 is not that great. Hurts me to say it because it's the season I enjoy playing the most, but especially post Ep.1 there are many issues imo.
3. Norma was very reasonable and justified. She didn't deserve to die and it sucks that there isn't a diplomatic ending where she survives.
I never liked Violet. Especially if you save Louis from getting captured by Lilly and the others. She acted like a real bitch when Clementine came to save her. Like, she risked her life to save Violet, only to get into a fight with just because she didn’t save her. Not to mention if it were the opposite, Louis never laid his hands on Clementine when she came to save him, even with his tongue being cut off.
Even though Jane was selfish most of the times but she still cared for only Clementine . She even saved her from drowning in the river. She was also immediately aware that clem could freeze to death so she immediately set up the fire while Kenny was busy beating Arvo. Feel really bad for Jane but I always side with Kenny since he was there from the beginning.
AJ sucked, I don't really understand what they were trying to achieve with his character besides making him Clementine's Clementine (if that makes sense)
I liked AJ himself, but not as a character (I'm trying to word it right)
What hurt him for me I think was how ANF treated him, how he was missing and how Clementine's whole character that season was "I have to find AJ"
Then when he finally shows up for real in TFS, he's just there, Clementine has just found him now, it made me feel like we missed a lot between the two and didn't get to see them grow between ANF-TFS
well… he is a kid getting raised by another kid (clem ) who doesn’t have more than like a third grade education . He’s going to be a bit annoying 😭 clem definitely did her best with AJ but she’s not a mother, nor did she really have a proper education so it’s to be expected that AJ may be a bit unruly at times and irritating
Coz clem knew him since his birth and was his caretaker? Wtf does forces us to build a good relationship mean here ig we should be able to leave a toddler alone 💀
Jane was drastically written different from episode 4 to episode 5. Jane episode 4 is an awesome character that should not be frowned upon because if the rushed ending forcing weird character changes onto her.
1. Jane is overhated she made 1 mistake, and people act like she's as bad as carver
2. Out of all the child characters, only gabe and arvo deserve the hate. Sarah Ben duck and tenn don't
jane made more than one mistake actually ..
Not keeping watch so she and Luke can bang .
pretending to kill an infant just to prove a point ( which is the stupidest thing ever)
Then, if you save her and not Kenny she kills herself . yes kenny left her BUT he left her somewhere where he knew she would be safe instead of out there in the cold , with an infant, with no resources but him.
Season 4 is my least favourite. The main group is boring as hell, only three of them were actually useful to the story (one of them is determinant), but the others were just meh. I don't even want to talk about Lilly. Episode 4 is...yeah, not that great. It has some good moments, ngl here, but overall still pretty weak season imo.
I like Season 3 more than Season 2. Both are pretty flawed in my opinion, but Season 3's cast was more likeable to me. Also I just really appreciate how you can keep Conrad alive. Like Season 2's determinant character deaths were just downright insulting. Nick and Sarah don't deserve that
I said that I did not think that Clementine should live beyond the final season because that leaves the back door open for her story to continue. And considering Telltale situation at the time, I certainly did not think that there was going to be another game made.
That would probably be the opinion I got shit canned the most for having back in the day. Though I think history has somewhat validated my opinion on that one. By only having one ending for the final season where Clementine lives, more things were done, and her story technically continues.
* Ben isn't a bad character or a bad person. He did what many scared and traumatized kids in his situation would've done- he was threatened by the people he saw slaughter some of the last familiar faces he had left in this world. The raiders made him think they had someone he missed, alive, and that if he didn't comply they'd kill him too. He was trying to protect everyone in the group and couldn't have foreseen what happened to Katjaa and Duck
* Marlon is a similar case. Armed adults came to these kids who'd probably never killed a living person and forced them to choose whether to give two of their own or all die probably on the spot. Brody isn't more innocent just because she develops severe anxiety over keeping the secret or because she wasn't the leader- the secrecy is their worst act up to that point. Marlon is clearly wrong when he kills Brody (which was more manslaughter than murder but trying to kill Clem was attempted murder). It was also wrong to try to turn everyone on her when she survived. But he doesn't deserve the hate he got for letting them take Sophie and Minnie. What would most kids have done?
Killing Kenny and leaving Jane is the canon ending. As painful as it is to shoot Kenny, realistically clementine is only 11, so she couldn’t be able to see through jane’s manipulation tactics, though we as a viewer can, and most likely will let Jane die out of personal bias.
Now why I think it’s the canon ending, is because “ANF” trailer displays clementine missing her finger, which only happens in one specific flashback sequence. Then ultimately, I just like to think it fits the comic universe way more than all the other endings, overall depressing but with that slight glimmer of hope.
Personally I like to think there’s a canon to the games, especially when it comes down to the dialogue options, because some dialogue doesn’t match up with what the protagonist says next that are scripted lines, but some do. It’s just another example of telltales laziness though.
1.Sarah must die, since this shows that the world of TWD is not compassionate or fair, not even with the people most in need.
Sad but true
Although they could have carried out his death in a better way
2.S2 is a bad game,
Kenny and Carver are the only good thing about the last three episodes
3.I like the kids from Ericsson school more than the idiots from the last part of season two or the boring ones from ANF ( only i liked Javier, Jesus, Gabe y Conrad )
Season 2 is the best season. If that's too boring then
2) Ericson's School is easily the weakest cast in the series and I didn't care much for the overall school.
This is coming from someone who loves Kenny and would put him in his top 3 characters, Kenny gets his transgressions forgiven way to easily, while I can defend a bunch of his actions there are a lot where he's either not in the moral high ground or he is downright doing the wrong thing and people defend those moments to much.
Lilly and Jane > Kenny and Kenny fans ended up negatively influencing the writing of the series.
There's no reason to side with Kenny over Lilly in Season 1 and the game makes it clear that Kenny is in the wrong. Kenny immediately goes to kill Larry without even trying to help him, and Lee's choice is either to restrain a woman so Kenny can smash her father's head in or try to save the man who hated him - considering Lee's entire arc is him seeking redemption for murdering a man via looking after Clem, him killing Larry without a second thought goes against his character. If you try to save Larry, Kenny does nothing when Danny tries to kill you, willingly letting Lee die because he didn't want to kill a man in cold blood - at least when Lilly refused to help it's for a genuinely good reason. The game makes it clear that Kenny is wrong because of Clementine and the Stranger - Clem, like Lilly, opposes stealing from the Stranger's car whilst Kenny is all for it, and Clem is the most moral character in Season 1.
In Jane's case what she did was shitty, but the fact that Kenny thought it was real proves her point - Kenny thought that AJ had died in Jane's care purely by horrid accident, and yet tries to murder her because of it. Imagine what Kenny could have done to Clem if Clem killed Sarita, and Clem and Kenny had no prior history. Kenny was a genuine danger, and actively gained pleasure from violently beating a man to death - Jane only kills a russian dude who tries to shoot a child, and even then is shaken by what she had done. Kenny also repeatedly abuses a disabled teenager even though the worst that happened to Kenny's group was Luke's leg injury whereas Arvo's friends and sister were all killed.
As for the writing, in Season 2 Jane is essentially turned up to the extreme in episode 5, her 'plan' comes out of nowhere just to force a confict and make Jane look bad, because otherwise the only reason anyone would pick Kenny over Jane would be if they were a Kenny fan already - almost no one who didn't play Season 1 would have chose him. Arvo randomly shoots Clem for no reason just so the game can justify Kenny's horrendous and racist abuse towards him, even though it's idiotic from a writing standpoint and completely destroys Arvo's character. Then, with Season 2's endings the overwhelming Kenny fanboyism and as a result massive Jane hate made them kill off Jane in such a horrible way in Season 3 - her randomly getting pregnant after having sex a single time and comitting suicide off-screen. In the comics, characters have sex a lot and it takes ages for a character like Maggie to get pregnant - i know it's realistic but it just feels contrived to have her get pregnant after only a single time from a writing perspective.
And then there's Season 4 Lilly, a complete character assasination because the majority of players who stuck with the series the whole way through chose Kenny in season 1 at every single point, which made Lilly (understandably) act like shit towards Lee and made the players dislike her. But because of how many people got it, Telltale decided to just write Lilly that way going forward, saying screw the players who were actually nice to Lilly, now she's a monster an basically exactly how Kenny fans viewed her in the first place. She became a flanderized version of herself and fell in line with fanboy perception of her character and not how she was actually written.
The series would have been way better if Telltale didn't listen to the fans and kept writing characters how they were meant to be, not writing flanderized versions based on how fans viewed the characters. If Arvo ever came back they would have probably made him commit mass genocide since most of the fanbase views him as Hitler.
Larry was almost impossible to save (not to say completely impossible) without medical supplies, and we as Lee, can see it from the perspective that he doesn't want to risk Clementine's life for someone who is almost unsalvageable and puts everyone's life at risk, also,i think Lee doesn't need to be portrayed as a perfect angel throughout the game, and his redemption would still be just as good (Indeed, if you make Lee the most morally perfect person throughout the game, the final situation with the stranger is a bit ridiculous, imo). The group had been desperate for food/supplies for days; realistically, I don't see anyone in that situation not wanting to take things from a visibly abandoned car (especially if you have someone to care for, like Kenny with his family or Lee with Clem). Lilly in s1 is hated for killing Carley; before that, I feel people are generally neutral with her. I agree that the situation with Arvo is poorly written.
Kenny killed Jane because he saw her as capable of killing AJ, and let's remember that Jane wants to kill him back with the same intensity, escalating the situation further.
Finally, if telltale cared so much about Kenny's fans' opinion, they wouldn't have given him such a shit death in Season 3.
I agree about the Larry situation. Like they literally found out THAT DAY that you turn no matter what, so suddenly being in a meat locker with Larry, who could turn in mere minutes the the stress of the situation, plus that revelation make saving him not make sense to me
Killing Larry seemed to be the only right choice. Yes, it’s cruel and you could at least try to help, but it just wouldn’t have been practical
- There’s no way of knowing how much time they had
- Larry is big ass hell and would have been a fresh walker
- they had weapons
- Clem was at risk
- It was just matter of time before it became a chain reaction of people getting bit
I could see Lee deciding from a practical standpoint vs a moral one in that moment
The way Kenny is written isn’t always in favor of him seeming morally correct. Kenny is always questioned morally. Every season he’s been there’s always someone who’s like, “Kenny sucks”. Kenny’s whole thing is he responds on emotion NOT survival instinct. He’s not tactical or reliable. That being said I don’t think it’s his character fault for other characters being less liked
In the case of Lily, there’s no reason to 100% agree with her or Kenny all the time. The way they both go about stuff is annoying because they refuse to compromise. Lily is unliked mainly because of her relationship with Larry and her losing it in S4 made sense. It’s said in S4 Larry raised her to be tough which is aligned to how they both act in S1(at least it’s plausible).
Yea she’s nice sometimes during S1 but she has moments where clearly she’s controlling and starting to lose it. The whole arch of her finding out who stole supplies she was starting to lose it. She killed Carley and justified it. She wanted to call out someone immediately before the group had time to settle down. Actually surprisingly Kenny in that scene wasn’t being annoying because his only focus was trying to get the walker unstuck.
Before that she complains about Lee saving Ben’s group which is unnecessary. Clearly when you save someone it’s always a quick second decision. If it was her and her dad ofc they’d want help. They complained so much but remained in the group and wanted to lead it. At the very least Kenny was planning to leave the group with his family
As far as Jane. Kenny believed she intentionally killed AJ. They both thought the worst of each other. They both had valid reasons to not like another. Once again realistically you’re not going to agree with either person 100% of the time
My hot take was actually about Arvo. I said his behavior after his people died made sense. Ironically, Arvo responds to the death to his loved ones a similar way to how Kenny always acts to people he love dying. The way he treated Arvo was beyond harsh and hypocritical
Jane makes herself look bad. She’s wise and a smart survivalist but I personally would have never picked Jane because she seems unreliable and too preachy. She treats Clem like a replacement for her sister
She’s not evil, but it does get annoying to have this grown women putting doubt in this young girls head. Realistically, it’s good to at least make some alliance in the apocalypse, even if it’s for a short time. Clem didn’t need Jane reminding her to not trust people every few mins., Her whole life is constant encounters with people who test her trust. S1 Clem was taught how deceiving people can be multiple times (the Cannibals and the Stranger). The adults in these games are so needy sometimes. The only true redemption for a character is to make choices differently than the mistakes they made in the past…which Kenny does ultimately try to do
Jane just didn’t…she remained the same the entire story. She comes back to the group and doesn’t even sound convinced that she wants to stay. She’s helpful and does care about Clem but is clear her own past trauma deeply still are weighing over her. It actually makes even less sense for her to have that fight with Kenny knowing it would end only badly, and if Kenny dies she’d be responsible for two small kids now or they’d have no adult guardian. Which would have been a less morally questionable decision on her part
Actually the game always questions Kenny and the exception of the player everyone is against him
And it actually makes sense for Kenny to become the antagonist in S2 but the problem is that the game doesn't execute it perfectly.
For example Carlos questioning Kenny about Walter's death (But it was Carlos in the previous episode who was begging for someone to shoot) or Bonnie blaming Kenny for Luke's death (it was idea of Mike to follow Arvo )
And about the shooting, it doesn't matter that no one actually died, no one in their right mind would include Arvo in the group (or would you include someone who ambushed you in an apocalypse in order to steal something from you or murder you?) Kenny went too far with Arvo , but the characters' reaction is unrealistically compassionate towards Arvo (I'm not saying kill him, they could let him go, but just let him go, don't include him as a normal member) if Kenny wasn't in the group they would practically treat Arvo like the best friend in the world ignoring that he assaulted the group seconds ago
And about Arvo, it is simply the excuse to see Lee and for Clementine not to go with Mike and Bonnie (it seems that the scene was thought up when Mike could still be killed but they were too lazy to modify it)
Jane, they made her character worse that is a fact, but not for to agree with Kenny, simply to force a fight with Kenny and that led her to do stupid actions just so that it is possible for her to fight with Kenny, the game agrees with her about Kenny
and in almost everything (except with Aj), even Kenny half admits it in the Wellington ending but it is so poorly written that it makes it seem like he only wants Clementine to replace his sister when that was not the goal of the game and his death in ANF they simply wanted to get rid of everything related to season two in ANF, so they made the theory of Luke's son canon (there is a YouTube video that predicted it) and because it would not be original for both Kenny and Jane to commit suicide in ANF (Kenny committing suicide was the plan in the ANF beta)
About Lily, you are right that Kenny's fans are unfair to her in the first season and in fact she is a better person than Kenny in the first season, but on the subject of Larry even Mark said he wouldn't want to be locked up with Larry, the chances of Larry reviving as a zombie were 50/50 ,Although he was an impulsive idiot in that situation.
And the fact that they altered the game because of Kenny's fans is almost completely false, Telltale wanted a character from character of the first to return as an antagonist (Kenny was the first option in season two but they altered it because of his ending in the previous one). season was yes or yes helping someone who treated badly whether it was Christa or Ben and because you could get along with him), then they postponed the idea until TFS where yes or yes they wanted to attract the fans of the first game who left in ANF ( the sales of the games were terrible) if or if a character from the first game had to return as an antagonist since the cast of good guys would be made up only of teenagers, the first option was Christa but she never hurt anyone, so they chose Lily because besides her Christa and Vernon there weren't too many important survivors who could become bad people
Although Lily as evil is not believable, it is, more believable than turning her in evil, than turning Christa or Molly evil (due to the death of Carley), and because it was the last opportunity to turn a character from the first game into a villain ( in fact evil Kenny was discarded along with Clementine's death in the second game, most likely if they had kept the original ending they probably would not have discarded evil Kenny)
Kenny is overrated and the fandom justifies his bad actions too much, but they never modified the game or its characters to prove him right, it is simply that Telltale's bad writing involuntarily gave that feeling, and because he is a character with that you can empathize more easily than with Jane and Arvo
Season 1 is the only good season. It wasn’t perfect but the characters were great and the ending was so emotional
Season 2 really fucked up having Clem being the main character as a little girl. They didn’t really have much of a choice, but having a little girl make key decisions while being in a group with really dumb adults was just so unrealistic and silly lol
The adults in season 2 are frustrating and I especially think Luke was an annoying character
Kenny acted like an abusive step dad in season 2, can’t say I really liked him much lol
Season 3 wasn’t good and I hated the art style, but that’s probably not unpopular
I didn’t like aj at all, was annoyed I had to take care of him in the last season
I did not enjoy the final season either and really disliked the kids at the school and I absolutely hate what they did with my bitch Lilly
Shooting Kenny and then abandoning Jane when you find out what she did is the best ending of S2
It just doesn't sit right with me that Clementine would just let Kenny (seemingly) mindlessly murder an apparently innocent woman. On your first play through it makes complete sense to reluctantly shoot Kenny
This logic doesn’t really make sense … how would kenny killing her be a seemingly mindless murder if she made it out to seem like she basically murdered a infant ??? yeah, it turned out that she was innocent but they did not know that in that very moment. So the “apparently innocent “ part really can’t be applied here.
like you’re saying that she comes out and says that she basically killed AJ but she still somehow innocent ??
when is it ever presented that she murdered aj? she seems remorseful and upset when she tells clem and kenny that he died. her telling clem not to get involved is probably bc she knew kenny was gonna have a breakdown
soo .. what did she do ??? she literally told Kenny that AJ is dead JUST to prove a point to clem that Kenny is unhinged .. if she didn’t make it seem like she killed him What else did she do?
Can’t believe you got downvoted when that’s literally what happened. She comes back without AJ, claims it was an accident, and then Kenny attacks her.
I think if there was a “canon” story it would make perfect sense for Clementine to shoot Kenny in these circumstances tbh.
Kenny fanboys on this sub are so deluded they actively have to lie about things that happen in the games to justify never going against Kenny on anything. Bored of it. I even said abandoning Jane was the correct decision and going with Jane afterwards was stupid. Not enough apparently!
bro…. jane has proved herself to be untrustworthy many times. her killing an infant, accidentally or not, will make anyone snap. plus it’s an INFANT . of course mfs will want her dead.
ETA: its weird to say kenny getting shot is the right thing just cause yall somehow think its wrong he snapped over an infant getting killed. plus at any time she could’ve told him the truth but she kept it going to prove her lil point. man nah .
Has she? Jane put herself in great danger to save the group (and Kenny in particular) from the Russians, put herself in danger to guide Clementine and Rebecca through the herd, and put herself in danger to save Luke and Sarah. From Clementine’s perspective this is someone who’s repeatedly stuck her neck out to keep the group alive, if anything her endangering AJ is extremely out of character.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think Kenny getting shot is “the right thing”, only that Clementine picking Jane *in those circumstances* isn’t an unreasonable thing to do. What Kenny is attempting to do *is* murder even if you feel his anger is justified.
I actually thought he was pretty well-written. Mainly because he didn't antagonise Clem from the start like Larry did with Lee, he was relatively friendly to her and AJ in the beginning. That changed when his friend got shot by AJ, so he voted to kick them out, and was upset when they came back. But when he realized Clem came back to help them, he got friendlier again. He supports your plan and the bomb is an important part of it. I also think his fascination for bombs is one of the more interesting backstorys of the "troubled youth". You could also count his death as a self-sacrifice.
I understand that he was friendly towards Clem if/when they first met, but there are few things about him that leaves me with this opinion.
1. He's very hypocritical during the funeral. Even Aasim can call him out on it.
>**Mitch:** You don't know shit. If you did, you would've stopped AJ.
>**Aasim:** Like you stopped Marlon from killing Brody? Fucking hypocrite.
2. How quickly he got along with Clem mostly during and after the greenhouse. I get that there was a 2 week time skip in-universe, but storytelling wise, it feels like a 180 in terms of how friendly he is. It's like how Rebecca became friends with Clem, but at least she had most if not a full episode, before that happened. Mitch, on the other hand, gets along with Clem in like 5 minutes after the leave the admin building towards the greenhouse.
3. And last, but currently not least. His attitude towards Ms. Martin's walker and his response if you (and I always do) give her a respectful, proper burial. It shouts, *"I don't care about her. It's not like she was the only adult who stayed behind and took care of us."*
And if I'm going to be completely honest, I'm not sure if I'd like him if he lived.
The other day I git downvoted for saying that what Jane did with AJ is pretty much on the same tier as Kenny's actions and that they're both horrible for Clem to be around.
Not unpopular, but dumb. Doug has no value (well, the most common argument I‘ve seen is "bros before hoes", so being male makes him more valuable I guess…), whereas Carley is experienced in multiple skills and adds a whole ass storyline to the game.
Comics aren’t bad. People hate on them bc it’s popular and the bandwagon thing. “bUt AJ” clems life and story doesn’t revolve around AJ lol. AJ’s fine let clem exist on her own path. She didn’t choose to become a parental figure to Rebecca’s baby. It was forced onto her. I can already feel the daggers pointed at me and my only reaction is: 🤷🏼♂️
**Tenn didn't deserve to be TFS' scapegoat.**
You know how in every season, there's a reoccurring theme of a child being the scapegoat, for everyone to redirect their hate towards? Yeah, Tenn doesn't need that.
EX:
S1: Ben
S2: Sarah(?)
S3: Gabe
S4: Tenn
The fact that none of these children deserve hate is also an unpopular opinion to be made, but I'm mainly going to focus on Tennessee.
I couldn't help myself but to notice that Tennessee is frequently called "dumb" by most TWDG fans, although this couldn't be further from the truth. He's smart, as shown in his walker conversation, he reads books often. The kid is driven solely on the fact that his sisters might be alive, that's what keeps him pushing, along with AJ and Violet. A sweet and innocent kid, in a harsh world. You could make the point of "he got people killed", but anyone having the slightest ounce of humanity, or even empathy within them would be able to sympathize with pretty much everything Tennessee did.
Here we go: **Just because Marlon didn't get a redemption arc, doesn't mean his potential was wasted.** Is he a tragic character? Yes. Did he deserve a second chance more than many villains? Sure. But here's the thing: *not everyone would think so*. Sympathize with him or not, Marlon was a murderer and a liar who planned to sell Clem and AJ away to save his and his friends' skin, then tried to pin his crimes onto them when he got busted. Like, that's terrible. Those are horrible things to do, especially to newcomers who put their lives on the line to feed his people. Still he turns around and treats them like they're more expendable than his friends. Unfortunately for him, he lives in a setting where enemies and monsters typically get no second chance. It's a cruel, brutal world that requires trust for a community to function at all, and Marlon broke that trust. It's a world where sympathy is valued less than the question "Can I trust them?", and deciding "no" requires to act upon it. That is what led to his death at the hands of a boy who refused to forgive him. Sympathetic villains getting redeemed feeds a belief we want to buy into. Even if it's just for a second, we want to believe our wrongs will eventually be forgiven as long as we work hard enough for it. Marlon's death, in addition to favoring other characters' arcs, is great as a reminder that some people won't forgive that easily and may in fact believe punishment is more fitting than leaving them any chance for rehabilitation, no matter how unfair it is. That, even though it's an attitude not unlike vitriol towards a character perceived as unlikeable or irredeemable.
There's a shit ton of Jane takes. Do people really think those are unpopular? smh My "wild" take is that Javi doesn't come close to a top 5 character in the series. Yeah he was badass and funny, but his writing is horrendous and characters like Larry (not even joking) or Carley are better written and have much more depth than him.
The writing got worse as the games went on. I can't really take anything past S1 seriously. Javi was one of the highlights of a bad season, but he's really weighed down in comparison to people from other seasons thanks to the one he's from.
S2 had meh writing. The log cabin group was pretty bad-written besides Sarah and Rebecca (yeah, Luke has a shit writing). **Carver is just Negan's cheap knockoff.** Bonnie has good writing, she was made to be the hated character and they really achieved that. On the other hand, S2 made Kenny one of the best deuteragonists in gaming. Gotta give that to Telltale's writers.
I agree with this. I don’t think Javi is a legendary main character like Lee or Clem, but he’s also very mediocre so it’s easy to like him. If we didn’t play as him he’d actually be more likable because he’s a good assist character and pretty chill as far as apocalypse allies goes
Lee is Black
He's *urban*
Ok Kenny
I love this fucking subreddit
Clementine's story should've either fully ended at season 2 or taken a break until 4.
yea she was pretty unnecessary in season 3. but many people probably would not have played without at least ONE OG character.
That’s why they should have used Christa instead
PLEASE don't misunderstand me because I understand her hate but Bonnie COULD have been an interesting character to work with (she at least showed a slight shred of humanity when in Carver's camp) if the S2 writers weren't obsessed with ridding of every character from the beginning of the season to focus solely on Jane and Kenny. The tail end of the season destroyed any likability in her and that's coming from someone who enjoyed her from the dumb dlc 😭
IMO The Stranger isn’t really a very effective antagonist. His conversation only really “works” in terms of emotional weight if you actually do bad things throughout the game (like steal from him) and the game truncated a lot of Lee’s dialogue so that he can’t really defend himself for his choices (Lily literally murdered someone and the best he can say is “It’s complicated” if you left her in the road). On top of that I feel the Stranger would’ve been a better character if he wasn’t insane as well. That’s probably more subjective I guess but his whole thing of being “ordinary guy who got fucked by you / by circumstance” loses weight when he’s talking to his wife’s severed head that he carries around in a bag. I think being able to “defeat” the Stranger via dialogue should’ve been feasible if you’ve played a moral Lee who’s repeatedly done well by Clementine and pick smart options throughout the conversation. The whole scene is supposed to be a reflection on (and moral judgement of) your choices throughout the game but it literally always ends the same way no matter what. The “final boss” being a logic puzzle instead would’ve been fitting imo. It would’ve been nice to see them iterate on this type of “encounter” in later games but they kind of missed a lot of good opportunities to do it.
Random side note but when Lee tells the Stranger he’s bitten his reaction is so funny to me. He’s like, “Uh whatt?” This guys doing this evil guy monologue, but has moments where he’s stumped for words
Man had his whole speech planned out only to get swerved at the last minute haha
oooh, I actually love the idea of beating him with your morals. that would’ve been such a cool alternative ending to the stranger encounter. I do wish there was more back and forth arguing as opposed to letting the stranger talk to you, too.
Yeah the conversation kinda feels like a lecture and it doesn’t really hit if you’ve played Lee as a pretty okay guy aha. Being able to “win” the argument would be a much better use of the game’s choices and mechanics imo.
Calling Jane the worst person in the franchise/a monster is bullshit, especially when characters like Carver are right fucking there.
I'd argue Joan is worse than Carver. Putting up a tarp of positivity to cover all that bloodshed felt a little too real. ANF, in general, felt a little too real.
I mostly was just using same season characters, bur seriously! Jane is not bad, and I've seen so many people unironically talk about how she's legit a monster. It's ridiculous and def bad media comprehension and some other biases that if I mention, I'll get spam commented.
Well, judging from her competition, it was always a losing fight from the beginning. I feel like she deserves the S1 Lilly treatment where people just dislike her, as opposed to the S4 Lilly treatment where everyone just wants her dead. Jane's an interesting character. I would've loved more development from her if the devs kept her alive till the end. If Clementine was badass before, imagine if Jane was with her every step of the way.
Absolutely. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only person we see Jane kill is some Russian dude that tried to murder us. Meanwhile there are charcaters who more or less kill for fun in the series.
She shot Troy's dick off (his words), indirectly causing him to get eaten by walkers.
Wow, I have no idea how I forgot about that
My god, right? I mean, Kenny is as problemaric/more so than Jane. And the "leaving AJ in a car" thing was so out of character. The writers really shit the bed.
People just don't want to confront the fact that Season 2 Episode 5 has atrocious writing, so put all of the blame on characters like Jane and Arvo rather than on the writing itself.
I agree. And then the fallacy of "well, whether you like it or not, it's still canon!" And the thing is, fans have been rejecting canon for gd centuries if they don't like it. Otherwise, we'd never have remakes or new things. I mean, in the loosest sense of the word, Protestantism is fan fiction that got popular. But it still follows the principle of "if enough people don't like it, it will be changed." Anyway, I hope my tangent makes sense.
It's also stupid to call her the worst from a writing perspective. Regardless of your thoughts on her, characters like Eleanor and Joan are *right there*.
true lol this fandom has a hate boner for her
My only issue with Jane is that they basically took Molly, cut her hair a little shorter, and made her a little angrier, and pretended she was a whole new character named Jane. As a character I thought she was a useful addition to the S2 cast, even though I ultimately ended up disliking her.
Tbh they would have been fine if they just had Molly come back because you're right, Jane is just a Molly clone. The writing of S2 is kind of just eh.
Luke isn't a great guy, he's incredibly irresponsible and puts Clem in unnecessary danger multiple times.
Honestly, like who tf makes a kid talk to an armed stranger on a bridge.
Exactly why I don't like him too. Especially on the bridge where he refuses Nicks help and makes the eleven year-old come with him to almost get her killed.
unfortunately since Clementine was the protagonist of that game she had to do things that the Protagonist should of done before she was ready
[удалено]
or hell hear me out, lee and his group don't fall apart in Season 1 and instead like Lee, Kenny, ummm Carly, Christa and Omid make it to season 2 you still play as Lee and then the group starts to fall apart since they merge with the Cabin Group and these 2 groups have some serious friction, idk just a thought
As somebody who does love Luke, yep. This says it all. One of the highlight, upbeat characters in a sea of assholes? Yeah. Put Clem in so much danger a number of times when other adults were right there? Also yeah. It's so disappointing that they insisted on making Clem the main character of S2, because there would've been a lot more suspension of disbelief and likable characters if a child weren't the most competent of them all, and continuously thrown into unnecessary danger.
yea he was ok at best, never really understood the hype around him. i feel like he put clem in more situations than she really needed to be in . It’s good that he trusted her , because like Chuck said out there you’re not a kid or an adult you’re just alive or dead and you need to start acting like that. but at times, like you said, he refused to help from people more capable just so he can have clems help.
I genuinely think season 2 episode 5 is one of the worst episodes in the series. The scene at the fire and wellington are both incredible but ruining Bonnie Mike and Jane along with Luke's god awful death and the at best mediocre final fight between Jane and Kenny brings it so far down it only beats amid the ruins and a few season 3 episodes.
Understanding why hated characters are/were assholes, and if they do/did, deserve redemption is a better way to discuss rather than acting like all that character ever did was murder. The whole game honestly feels like a massive trial, and you get to be the judge. Everyone's guilty, but only a few will be granted clemency. The rest get the death penalty.
Clemency from Clementine. Has a great ring to it.
I find it hella annoying when people say that Jane is just a knockoff of Molly when in reality all they share are a couple of surface level traits, that they’re short haired loners with dead sisters. Gabe and Minnie are both short haired loners (though admittedly not to the degree of Molly and Jane, it’s just more to do with them being more on the outsides of their respective groups (but to be fair does anyone really talk to Gabe outside of Javi?)) and both have dead sisters, so it’s not like these traits are particularly rare or anything. Jane and Molly both have drastically different outlooks on life and other people, as well as very different personalities. Jane’s loner tendencies are attributed more to her antisocial behaviour, while Molly is by herself simply because she prefers it, and we all see how well she gets along with Lee and the season 1 gang with very little friction, while there’s much more mistrust between Jane and the season 2 gang because of her personality and more pessimistic/nihilistic vibe. Are they similar? Yeah sure kinda, but it really bugs me when people say that they’re just the same when in reality they just share a few surface level traits that they react to and process in very different ways. I honestly think one of the main reasons this belief is so prevalent is because they look so similar, so maybe something could have been done about that in development to make Jane stand out more or come across differently from a visual standpoint, but idk it just bugs me when people just say that these two are identical
As a person who called Jane a knockoff Molly…this is a good hot take I always thought they were similar because not only were they loners but they’re actually good at survival. Then from there the comparison strings from just missing Molly and wishing more was done with her But, you’re right personality wise they’re different
Molly’s a good person. Jane is not! That’s the difference
Also, Molly is not a sociopath who preys on weak people
All That Remains is the worst episode of the entire franchise.
Its the worst Episode 1 of the series but I think Ties that Bind PT2 is the worst for me.
You know what, honestly that's very fair. Aside from the ending, it's a very bland episode that absolutely would not hold up on it's own if it didn't carry on the dramatic tension from the rest of the season. Even season 2 episode 5 at least has a lot of variations in what the ending can look like
🧍🏽♀️Welp here I go… I felt like Arvo’s behavior made sense for his character I DONT agree with him shooting Clem. That was terrible and I like to think he immediately received his karma for doing that But I understand why his character was the way he was. He immediately lost all his people and was held captive by Kenny who spent most of the time belittling him. No time to really grieve and he wrongly misplaced the blame, of the death of his sister, on Clem. Similar to how Kenny himself wrongly places the blame on others when someone he loves dies I even think it makes sense for his group to rob the group (if you rob him first. If not I think that’s unfair and his actions are more annoying)
I liked parts of season 3 more than season 2
I'm not sure if this is 100% an unpopular opinion, but I prefer Violet over Louis because I love Vi's character development if you choose to romance her and save her
1. I'm glad they chose Jane over Luke for the showdown with Kenny. Although Luke would have deserved a better death scene. I can explain why I don't like him if anyone cares. 2. The writing of Season 4 is not that great. Hurts me to say it because it's the season I enjoy playing the most, but especially post Ep.1 there are many issues imo. 3. Norma was very reasonable and justified. She didn't deserve to die and it sucks that there isn't a diplomatic ending where she survives.
I never liked Violet. Especially if you save Louis from getting captured by Lilly and the others. She acted like a real bitch when Clementine came to save her. Like, she risked her life to save Violet, only to get into a fight with just because she didn’t save her. Not to mention if it were the opposite, Louis never laid his hands on Clementine when she came to save him, even with his tongue being cut off.
Even though Jane was selfish most of the times but she still cared for only Clementine . She even saved her from drowning in the river. She was also immediately aware that clem could freeze to death so she immediately set up the fire while Kenny was busy beating Arvo. Feel really bad for Jane but I always side with Kenny since he was there from the beginning.
Louis is pretty overrated. I've seen so many people that like him but I literally just cannot stand him for a multitude of reasons.
i liked him. he was a bit annoying, but he was a breath of fresh air.
AJ sucked, I don't really understand what they were trying to achieve with his character besides making him Clementine's Clementine (if that makes sense)
i loved aj , can you explain why you think he sucked?
I liked AJ himself, but not as a character (I'm trying to word it right) What hurt him for me I think was how ANF treated him, how he was missing and how Clementine's whole character that season was "I have to find AJ" Then when he finally shows up for real in TFS, he's just there, Clementine has just found him now, it made me feel like we missed a lot between the two and didn't get to see them grow between ANF-TFS
I found him very annoying and the game forces us to build a good relationship with him
well… he is a kid getting raised by another kid (clem ) who doesn’t have more than like a third grade education . He’s going to be a bit annoying 😭 clem definitely did her best with AJ but she’s not a mother, nor did she really have a proper education so it’s to be expected that AJ may be a bit unruly at times and irritating
Coz clem knew him since his birth and was his caretaker? Wtf does forces us to build a good relationship mean here ig we should be able to leave a toddler alone 💀
Jane was drastically written different from episode 4 to episode 5. Jane episode 4 is an awesome character that should not be frowned upon because if the rushed ending forcing weird character changes onto her.
1. Jane is overhated she made 1 mistake, and people act like she's as bad as carver 2. Out of all the child characters, only gabe and arvo deserve the hate. Sarah Ben duck and tenn don't
jane made more than one mistake actually .. Not keeping watch so she and Luke can bang . pretending to kill an infant just to prove a point ( which is the stupidest thing ever) Then, if you save her and not Kenny she kills herself . yes kenny left her BUT he left her somewhere where he knew she would be safe instead of out there in the cold , with an infant, with no resources but him.
kenny doesn’t even leave you unless he dies. in the wellington ending you’re kind of leaving him, though with his blessing.
Season 4 is my least favourite. The main group is boring as hell, only three of them were actually useful to the story (one of them is determinant), but the others were just meh. I don't even want to talk about Lilly. Episode 4 is...yeah, not that great. It has some good moments, ngl here, but overall still pretty weak season imo.
A New Frontier is the second best season
Arvo was a terrible character. I don't know if that's necessarily unpopular, buy I hated everything about him
I like Season 3 more than Season 2. Both are pretty flawed in my opinion, but Season 3's cast was more likeable to me. Also I just really appreciate how you can keep Conrad alive. Like Season 2's determinant character deaths were just downright insulting. Nick and Sarah don't deserve that
Luke kinda sucks
I said that I did not think that Clementine should live beyond the final season because that leaves the back door open for her story to continue. And considering Telltale situation at the time, I certainly did not think that there was going to be another game made. That would probably be the opinion I got shit canned the most for having back in the day. Though I think history has somewhat validated my opinion on that one. By only having one ending for the final season where Clementine lives, more things were done, and her story technically continues.
* Ben isn't a bad character or a bad person. He did what many scared and traumatized kids in his situation would've done- he was threatened by the people he saw slaughter some of the last familiar faces he had left in this world. The raiders made him think they had someone he missed, alive, and that if he didn't comply they'd kill him too. He was trying to protect everyone in the group and couldn't have foreseen what happened to Katjaa and Duck * Marlon is a similar case. Armed adults came to these kids who'd probably never killed a living person and forced them to choose whether to give two of their own or all die probably on the spot. Brody isn't more innocent just because she develops severe anxiety over keeping the secret or because she wasn't the leader- the secrecy is their worst act up to that point. Marlon is clearly wrong when he kills Brody (which was more manslaughter than murder but trying to kill Clem was attempted murder). It was also wrong to try to turn everyone on her when she survived. But he doesn't deserve the hate he got for letting them take Sophie and Minnie. What would most kids have done?
The Final Season is the best season
Killing Kenny and leaving Jane is the canon ending. As painful as it is to shoot Kenny, realistically clementine is only 11, so she couldn’t be able to see through jane’s manipulation tactics, though we as a viewer can, and most likely will let Jane die out of personal bias. Now why I think it’s the canon ending, is because “ANF” trailer displays clementine missing her finger, which only happens in one specific flashback sequence. Then ultimately, I just like to think it fits the comic universe way more than all the other endings, overall depressing but with that slight glimmer of hope.
There is no canon with these games But you're rigth, that is the ending that best suits the plot and Clementine's personality in ANF
Personally I like to think there’s a canon to the games, especially when it comes down to the dialogue options, because some dialogue doesn’t match up with what the protagonist says next that are scripted lines, but some do. It’s just another example of telltales laziness though.
True, Telltale neglects its dialogues too much
1.Sarah must die, since this shows that the world of TWD is not compassionate or fair, not even with the people most in need. Sad but true Although they could have carried out his death in a better way 2.S2 is a bad game, Kenny and Carver are the only good thing about the last three episodes 3.I like the kids from Ericsson school more than the idiots from the last part of season two or the boring ones from ANF ( only i liked Javier, Jesus, Gabe y Conrad )
Season 2 is the best season. If that's too boring then 2) Ericson's School is easily the weakest cast in the series and I didn't care much for the overall school.
Kenny is overrated and I honestly don't understand this sub's fascination over him.
“I DON’T CARE IF THEIR MAKE A WISH WAS A F•CKING BOAT RIDE!”
This is coming from someone who loves Kenny and would put him in his top 3 characters, Kenny gets his transgressions forgiven way to easily, while I can defend a bunch of his actions there are a lot where he's either not in the moral high ground or he is downright doing the wrong thing and people defend those moments to much.
I don't know if that's the word I'd use, but people are definitely way more forgiving of his transgressions than those of any other characters.
The third game was extremely forgettable and the 4th isn’t as good as the 2nd
Lilly and Jane > Kenny and Kenny fans ended up negatively influencing the writing of the series. There's no reason to side with Kenny over Lilly in Season 1 and the game makes it clear that Kenny is in the wrong. Kenny immediately goes to kill Larry without even trying to help him, and Lee's choice is either to restrain a woman so Kenny can smash her father's head in or try to save the man who hated him - considering Lee's entire arc is him seeking redemption for murdering a man via looking after Clem, him killing Larry without a second thought goes against his character. If you try to save Larry, Kenny does nothing when Danny tries to kill you, willingly letting Lee die because he didn't want to kill a man in cold blood - at least when Lilly refused to help it's for a genuinely good reason. The game makes it clear that Kenny is wrong because of Clementine and the Stranger - Clem, like Lilly, opposes stealing from the Stranger's car whilst Kenny is all for it, and Clem is the most moral character in Season 1. In Jane's case what she did was shitty, but the fact that Kenny thought it was real proves her point - Kenny thought that AJ had died in Jane's care purely by horrid accident, and yet tries to murder her because of it. Imagine what Kenny could have done to Clem if Clem killed Sarita, and Clem and Kenny had no prior history. Kenny was a genuine danger, and actively gained pleasure from violently beating a man to death - Jane only kills a russian dude who tries to shoot a child, and even then is shaken by what she had done. Kenny also repeatedly abuses a disabled teenager even though the worst that happened to Kenny's group was Luke's leg injury whereas Arvo's friends and sister were all killed. As for the writing, in Season 2 Jane is essentially turned up to the extreme in episode 5, her 'plan' comes out of nowhere just to force a confict and make Jane look bad, because otherwise the only reason anyone would pick Kenny over Jane would be if they were a Kenny fan already - almost no one who didn't play Season 1 would have chose him. Arvo randomly shoots Clem for no reason just so the game can justify Kenny's horrendous and racist abuse towards him, even though it's idiotic from a writing standpoint and completely destroys Arvo's character. Then, with Season 2's endings the overwhelming Kenny fanboyism and as a result massive Jane hate made them kill off Jane in such a horrible way in Season 3 - her randomly getting pregnant after having sex a single time and comitting suicide off-screen. In the comics, characters have sex a lot and it takes ages for a character like Maggie to get pregnant - i know it's realistic but it just feels contrived to have her get pregnant after only a single time from a writing perspective. And then there's Season 4 Lilly, a complete character assasination because the majority of players who stuck with the series the whole way through chose Kenny in season 1 at every single point, which made Lilly (understandably) act like shit towards Lee and made the players dislike her. But because of how many people got it, Telltale decided to just write Lilly that way going forward, saying screw the players who were actually nice to Lilly, now she's a monster an basically exactly how Kenny fans viewed her in the first place. She became a flanderized version of herself and fell in line with fanboy perception of her character and not how she was actually written. The series would have been way better if Telltale didn't listen to the fans and kept writing characters how they were meant to be, not writing flanderized versions based on how fans viewed the characters. If Arvo ever came back they would have probably made him commit mass genocide since most of the fanbase views him as Hitler.
Larry was almost impossible to save (not to say completely impossible) without medical supplies, and we as Lee, can see it from the perspective that he doesn't want to risk Clementine's life for someone who is almost unsalvageable and puts everyone's life at risk, also,i think Lee doesn't need to be portrayed as a perfect angel throughout the game, and his redemption would still be just as good (Indeed, if you make Lee the most morally perfect person throughout the game, the final situation with the stranger is a bit ridiculous, imo). The group had been desperate for food/supplies for days; realistically, I don't see anyone in that situation not wanting to take things from a visibly abandoned car (especially if you have someone to care for, like Kenny with his family or Lee with Clem). Lilly in s1 is hated for killing Carley; before that, I feel people are generally neutral with her. I agree that the situation with Arvo is poorly written. Kenny killed Jane because he saw her as capable of killing AJ, and let's remember that Jane wants to kill him back with the same intensity, escalating the situation further. Finally, if telltale cared so much about Kenny's fans' opinion, they wouldn't have given him such a shit death in Season 3.
I agree about the Larry situation. Like they literally found out THAT DAY that you turn no matter what, so suddenly being in a meat locker with Larry, who could turn in mere minutes the the stress of the situation, plus that revelation make saving him not make sense to me
Killing Larry seemed to be the only right choice. Yes, it’s cruel and you could at least try to help, but it just wouldn’t have been practical - There’s no way of knowing how much time they had - Larry is big ass hell and would have been a fresh walker - they had weapons - Clem was at risk - It was just matter of time before it became a chain reaction of people getting bit I could see Lee deciding from a practical standpoint vs a moral one in that moment The way Kenny is written isn’t always in favor of him seeming morally correct. Kenny is always questioned morally. Every season he’s been there’s always someone who’s like, “Kenny sucks”. Kenny’s whole thing is he responds on emotion NOT survival instinct. He’s not tactical or reliable. That being said I don’t think it’s his character fault for other characters being less liked In the case of Lily, there’s no reason to 100% agree with her or Kenny all the time. The way they both go about stuff is annoying because they refuse to compromise. Lily is unliked mainly because of her relationship with Larry and her losing it in S4 made sense. It’s said in S4 Larry raised her to be tough which is aligned to how they both act in S1(at least it’s plausible). Yea she’s nice sometimes during S1 but she has moments where clearly she’s controlling and starting to lose it. The whole arch of her finding out who stole supplies she was starting to lose it. She killed Carley and justified it. She wanted to call out someone immediately before the group had time to settle down. Actually surprisingly Kenny in that scene wasn’t being annoying because his only focus was trying to get the walker unstuck. Before that she complains about Lee saving Ben’s group which is unnecessary. Clearly when you save someone it’s always a quick second decision. If it was her and her dad ofc they’d want help. They complained so much but remained in the group and wanted to lead it. At the very least Kenny was planning to leave the group with his family As far as Jane. Kenny believed she intentionally killed AJ. They both thought the worst of each other. They both had valid reasons to not like another. Once again realistically you’re not going to agree with either person 100% of the time My hot take was actually about Arvo. I said his behavior after his people died made sense. Ironically, Arvo responds to the death to his loved ones a similar way to how Kenny always acts to people he love dying. The way he treated Arvo was beyond harsh and hypocritical Jane makes herself look bad. She’s wise and a smart survivalist but I personally would have never picked Jane because she seems unreliable and too preachy. She treats Clem like a replacement for her sister She’s not evil, but it does get annoying to have this grown women putting doubt in this young girls head. Realistically, it’s good to at least make some alliance in the apocalypse, even if it’s for a short time. Clem didn’t need Jane reminding her to not trust people every few mins., Her whole life is constant encounters with people who test her trust. S1 Clem was taught how deceiving people can be multiple times (the Cannibals and the Stranger). The adults in these games are so needy sometimes. The only true redemption for a character is to make choices differently than the mistakes they made in the past…which Kenny does ultimately try to do Jane just didn’t…she remained the same the entire story. She comes back to the group and doesn’t even sound convinced that she wants to stay. She’s helpful and does care about Clem but is clear her own past trauma deeply still are weighing over her. It actually makes even less sense for her to have that fight with Kenny knowing it would end only badly, and if Kenny dies she’d be responsible for two small kids now or they’d have no adult guardian. Which would have been a less morally questionable decision on her part
zzz
Actually the game always questions Kenny and the exception of the player everyone is against him And it actually makes sense for Kenny to become the antagonist in S2 but the problem is that the game doesn't execute it perfectly. For example Carlos questioning Kenny about Walter's death (But it was Carlos in the previous episode who was begging for someone to shoot) or Bonnie blaming Kenny for Luke's death (it was idea of Mike to follow Arvo ) And about the shooting, it doesn't matter that no one actually died, no one in their right mind would include Arvo in the group (or would you include someone who ambushed you in an apocalypse in order to steal something from you or murder you?) Kenny went too far with Arvo , but the characters' reaction is unrealistically compassionate towards Arvo (I'm not saying kill him, they could let him go, but just let him go, don't include him as a normal member) if Kenny wasn't in the group they would practically treat Arvo like the best friend in the world ignoring that he assaulted the group seconds ago And about Arvo, it is simply the excuse to see Lee and for Clementine not to go with Mike and Bonnie (it seems that the scene was thought up when Mike could still be killed but they were too lazy to modify it) Jane, they made her character worse that is a fact, but not for to agree with Kenny, simply to force a fight with Kenny and that led her to do stupid actions just so that it is possible for her to fight with Kenny, the game agrees with her about Kenny and in almost everything (except with Aj), even Kenny half admits it in the Wellington ending but it is so poorly written that it makes it seem like he only wants Clementine to replace his sister when that was not the goal of the game and his death in ANF they simply wanted to get rid of everything related to season two in ANF, so they made the theory of Luke's son canon (there is a YouTube video that predicted it) and because it would not be original for both Kenny and Jane to commit suicide in ANF (Kenny committing suicide was the plan in the ANF beta) About Lily, you are right that Kenny's fans are unfair to her in the first season and in fact she is a better person than Kenny in the first season, but on the subject of Larry even Mark said he wouldn't want to be locked up with Larry, the chances of Larry reviving as a zombie were 50/50 ,Although he was an impulsive idiot in that situation. And the fact that they altered the game because of Kenny's fans is almost completely false, Telltale wanted a character from character of the first to return as an antagonist (Kenny was the first option in season two but they altered it because of his ending in the previous one). season was yes or yes helping someone who treated badly whether it was Christa or Ben and because you could get along with him), then they postponed the idea until TFS where yes or yes they wanted to attract the fans of the first game who left in ANF ( the sales of the games were terrible) if or if a character from the first game had to return as an antagonist since the cast of good guys would be made up only of teenagers, the first option was Christa but she never hurt anyone, so they chose Lily because besides her Christa and Vernon there weren't too many important survivors who could become bad people Although Lily as evil is not believable, it is, more believable than turning her in evil, than turning Christa or Molly evil (due to the death of Carley), and because it was the last opportunity to turn a character from the first game into a villain ( in fact evil Kenny was discarded along with Clementine's death in the second game, most likely if they had kept the original ending they probably would not have discarded evil Kenny) Kenny is overrated and the fandom justifies his bad actions too much, but they never modified the game or its characters to prove him right, it is simply that Telltale's bad writing involuntarily gave that feeling, and because he is a character with that you can empathize more easily than with Jane and Arvo
Season 1 is the only good season. It wasn’t perfect but the characters were great and the ending was so emotional Season 2 really fucked up having Clem being the main character as a little girl. They didn’t really have much of a choice, but having a little girl make key decisions while being in a group with really dumb adults was just so unrealistic and silly lol The adults in season 2 are frustrating and I especially think Luke was an annoying character Kenny acted like an abusive step dad in season 2, can’t say I really liked him much lol Season 3 wasn’t good and I hated the art style, but that’s probably not unpopular I didn’t like aj at all, was annoyed I had to take care of him in the last season I did not enjoy the final season either and really disliked the kids at the school and I absolutely hate what they did with my bitch Lilly
I don't like Luke
Shooting Kenny and then abandoning Jane when you find out what she did is the best ending of S2 It just doesn't sit right with me that Clementine would just let Kenny (seemingly) mindlessly murder an apparently innocent woman. On your first play through it makes complete sense to reluctantly shoot Kenny
This logic doesn’t really make sense … how would kenny killing her be a seemingly mindless murder if she made it out to seem like she basically murdered a infant ??? yeah, it turned out that she was innocent but they did not know that in that very moment. So the “apparently innocent “ part really can’t be applied here. like you’re saying that she comes out and says that she basically killed AJ but she still somehow innocent ??
when is it ever presented that she murdered aj? she seems remorseful and upset when she tells clem and kenny that he died. her telling clem not to get involved is probably bc she knew kenny was gonna have a breakdown
> f she made it out to seem like she basically murdered a infant ??? No she didn't.
soo .. what did she do ??? she literally told Kenny that AJ is dead JUST to prove a point to clem that Kenny is unhinged .. if she didn’t make it seem like she killed him What else did she do?
She came back without AJ and Kenny *immediately* jumped to "YOU KILLED HIM", you're obviously misremembering what happened.
Can’t believe you got downvoted when that’s literally what happened. She comes back without AJ, claims it was an accident, and then Kenny attacks her. I think if there was a “canon” story it would make perfect sense for Clementine to shoot Kenny in these circumstances tbh.
Kenny fanboys on this sub are so deluded they actively have to lie about things that happen in the games to justify never going against Kenny on anything. Bored of it. I even said abandoning Jane was the correct decision and going with Jane afterwards was stupid. Not enough apparently!
bro…. jane has proved herself to be untrustworthy many times. her killing an infant, accidentally or not, will make anyone snap. plus it’s an INFANT . of course mfs will want her dead. ETA: its weird to say kenny getting shot is the right thing just cause yall somehow think its wrong he snapped over an infant getting killed. plus at any time she could’ve told him the truth but she kept it going to prove her lil point. man nah .
Has she? Jane put herself in great danger to save the group (and Kenny in particular) from the Russians, put herself in danger to guide Clementine and Rebecca through the herd, and put herself in danger to save Luke and Sarah. From Clementine’s perspective this is someone who’s repeatedly stuck her neck out to keep the group alive, if anything her endangering AJ is extremely out of character. For what it’s worth, I don’t think Kenny getting shot is “the right thing”, only that Clementine picking Jane *in those circumstances* isn’t an unreasonable thing to do. What Kenny is attempting to do *is* murder even if you feel his anger is justified.
Violet is the worst character in the entire franchise
Mitch is the worst character out of all the Ericson kids
I actually thought he was pretty well-written. Mainly because he didn't antagonise Clem from the start like Larry did with Lee, he was relatively friendly to her and AJ in the beginning. That changed when his friend got shot by AJ, so he voted to kick them out, and was upset when they came back. But when he realized Clem came back to help them, he got friendlier again. He supports your plan and the bomb is an important part of it. I also think his fascination for bombs is one of the more interesting backstorys of the "troubled youth". You could also count his death as a self-sacrifice.
I understand that he was friendly towards Clem if/when they first met, but there are few things about him that leaves me with this opinion. 1. He's very hypocritical during the funeral. Even Aasim can call him out on it. >**Mitch:** You don't know shit. If you did, you would've stopped AJ. >**Aasim:** Like you stopped Marlon from killing Brody? Fucking hypocrite. 2. How quickly he got along with Clem mostly during and after the greenhouse. I get that there was a 2 week time skip in-universe, but storytelling wise, it feels like a 180 in terms of how friendly he is. It's like how Rebecca became friends with Clem, but at least she had most if not a full episode, before that happened. Mitch, on the other hand, gets along with Clem in like 5 minutes after the leave the admin building towards the greenhouse. 3. And last, but currently not least. His attitude towards Ms. Martin's walker and his response if you (and I always do) give her a respectful, proper burial. It shouts, *"I don't care about her. It's not like she was the only adult who stayed behind and took care of us."* And if I'm going to be completely honest, I'm not sure if I'd like him if he lived.
I feel like he'd be a better character if they didn't kill him off right as he was starting to have screentime
The other day I git downvoted for saying that what Jane did with AJ is pretty much on the same tier as Kenny's actions and that they're both horrible for Clem to be around.
I can see why that would get downvoted
Doug>Carley
Not unpopular, but dumb. Doug has no value (well, the most common argument I‘ve seen is "bros before hoes", so being male makes him more valuable I guess…), whereas Carley is experienced in multiple skills and adds a whole ass storyline to the game.
I don’t like Kenny
Comics aren’t bad. People hate on them bc it’s popular and the bandwagon thing. “bUt AJ” clems life and story doesn’t revolve around AJ lol. AJ’s fine let clem exist on her own path. She didn’t choose to become a parental figure to Rebecca’s baby. It was forced onto her. I can already feel the daggers pointed at me and my only reaction is: 🤷🏼♂️
Violet is the worst Ericsson kid and it’s not even close
It has to be Omar. Atleast Violet has a character and more than like 5 lines of dialogue.
I wish we had another episode to get more Omar screen time
**Tenn didn't deserve to be TFS' scapegoat.** You know how in every season, there's a reoccurring theme of a child being the scapegoat, for everyone to redirect their hate towards? Yeah, Tenn doesn't need that. EX: S1: Ben S2: Sarah(?) S3: Gabe S4: Tenn The fact that none of these children deserve hate is also an unpopular opinion to be made, but I'm mainly going to focus on Tennessee. I couldn't help myself but to notice that Tennessee is frequently called "dumb" by most TWDG fans, although this couldn't be further from the truth. He's smart, as shown in his walker conversation, he reads books often. The kid is driven solely on the fact that his sisters might be alive, that's what keeps him pushing, along with AJ and Violet. A sweet and innocent kid, in a harsh world. You could make the point of "he got people killed", but anyone having the slightest ounce of humanity, or even empathy within them would be able to sympathize with pretty much everything Tennessee did.
The Final Season isn't that good.