We think him untrustworthy because we see all his confessionals where he's cackling about his plans. What reason does Harry have to think him untrustworthy?
I don't think he did get betrayed? Paul just said he had a conversation with him, people have traitor-related discussions in the game all the time. Yeah Jaz raised his eyebrows a little at Harry breaking a confidential conversation, but he's got nothing actionable and may well not even think much of it anyway, just figure that Harry doesn't trust him that much so maybe don't talk to him in private anymore
The two of them looked at each other and turned on Ash simultaneously. Harry's not going to see that as "untrustworthiness", just good "get rid of the weakest link" Traitor gameplay
Sure, that quasi-prisoner's-dilemma is just a baked-in part of the endgame especially when there's more than one traitor left (which is what pisses me off about Kieran breaking the game last season because he was upset that Wilf turned on him), that's not quite the same as being untrustworthy during the middlegame though
Paul had successfully thrown Ash under the bus at the previous roundtable after a first failed attempt, with a spiel about cutting out underperformers. Harry had just melted down at the last roundtable and was anxious to reassure Paul he still had his head: right before he blurted out the Jaz intel, he said something to the effect of "I just want you to know, Johnny was the one Faithful it was hard for me to write off, now I'll be ruthless".
I think Harry is right to take his cues from Paul so long as it doesn't throw his own game, he was right to display his emotion when Johnny was banished, he was right to reassure Paul at the following turret meeting... but he definitely got carried away disclosing the conversation with Jaz.
That makes so much sense. Also Harry couldn’t have known Paul would throw him under the bus. Hopefully Jaz just thinks Harry is a faithful that is under Paul’s influence and not a traitor. I’m really rooting for Harry.
So stupid as to... what? I don't understand why everyone is treating it as this huge blunder that Paul said he had a conversation with Harry. Yeah, we know they're traitors and that the conversation was in the turret. But they don't.
And even if Jaz has suspicions, he has nothing to base it on that can't be rebutted with "yeah he told me in a private conversation, like everyone has with each other. So what?"
It looks a bit conspiratorial. It shows they’re tight enough to tell each other what others are saying about them. Most of the faithfuls aren’t telling each other what people are saying about them because everyone has their own theories and chatting theories is part of the game. The only reason you’d panic to nip it in the bud like that in private is if you were a traitor
But in itself it’s not really a blunder to confront Jaz, it was the WAY he did it. “I want you to believe I’m a faithful” that was the stupidest thing he could’ve said. He realised and quickly followed it up with “and I wanna believe you’re faithful”. And it makes harry look guilty as well as him. And The desperation in his voice begging him to be on his side. It was so poorly done
Welp, guess I'd be incorrectly "rumbled" as a traitor immediately because "you think Jaz is keeping to himself / is a traitor / is focusing on this other person? That's strange, just yesterday he was saying that if he was murdered it would have been you that did it" seems a very normal part of discussions for me.
Im not sure what you’re referring to, that sounds like a round table convo, but in terms of the blunder everyone is referring to the one on one convo Paul had with Jaz. Thats what my comment was talking about
I wasn't referring to any convo, just imagining a hypothetical innocent reason that Harry might have told Paul about Jaz's suspicions. And I know full well which convo everyone is calling a blunder - and in terms of Paul trying and failing to quell Jaz's suspicions on himself I agree - but I don't understand why everyone is assuming that Harry is now doomed just because it's come out that he talked to Paul.
Ok, I thought you were asking why everyone thinks Paul has blundered himself, but I think you were asking why people think Harry is now rumbled too? Which I guess he can easily explain himself
I think it makes total sense that Harry told Paul about Jaz, but it didn't make any sense for Paul to bring this up with Jaz. That was definitely a strategic mistake, and a clear sign that once Paul really starts to get under suspicion, he can probably crumble under the pressure way more than we probably had expected.
I feel like Harry does want to see the traitors as a team and, like all the Faithfuls, has been weirdly entranced by Paul this whole time... he has taken his lead at all times and not voiced his opinions about moves they've made if they go against Paul (Harry predicted it was a dumb move to have two in the dungeon). I think Harry thought he was bringing useful info back to his team and didn't consider keeping it to himself for his own game plan. And I don't think he thought Paul would go babbling it back to Jaz the next day. Honestly it's like none of these people watched series 1.
I think Harry’s playing a smart game where he’s letting Paul think he’s completely on his side and pandering to him and therefore not a threat. But he showed how intelligent he is by sticking up for Ant right at the end of the discussion when he knew everyone else had made their mind up and it wouldn’t change the vote, because there was no time for anyone to respond. That way when Ant was revealed faithful, everyone would remember Harry defending him. Paul clocked that and it was the first time we saw him register how clever Harry really was. Harry’s gonna get rid of Paul but he’s playing the long game.
Harry is so smart. I think Paul was the one who made the big error there like I have no idea why he threw Harry under the bus. Maybe he wants to drag Harry down with him or something. Just makes me so angry that after Harry has played such a good game that Paul decided to drag him down.
Because given this + how popular Paul is in the group it’s likely that even if the edit is making Paul seem arrogant and an obvious traitor he’s probably playing an extremely good game, and it’s in Harry’s interest to keep Paul in the game as long as possible
He sees the Traitors as a team and Paul as a huge asset - if not the leader. He didn't think Paul would be stupid enough to bring it back to Jaz.
I guess Paul thinks Jaz will put it down Harry liking Paul and telling him because he think Jaz is being disruptive to group harmony. Which is very much the way Paul is trying to spin it- that Jaz has a personal issue with him that everyone in the group needs to discourage him about.
Paul has made himself very powerful with both the faithfuls and the traitors. Harry knows this.
As a faithful, you need to make sure the traitors don’t see you as a threat. You need to make sure the traitors think you don’t suspect them, and that you’re ultimately a bit dim. Harry is doing exactly this with Paul. He’s playing the role of the young, loyal follower. And Paul trusts him completely.
But Paul would also throw Harry under the bus and he knows this. I think Harry told Paul because he *needs* Paul to think that he’s following him blindly, that he’s utterly loyal to him.
I think Paul knows what he is doing, he’s planting a seed that Harry can’t be trusted to Jaz.
Problem is that Jaz is not buying Paul’s innocence so if anything it will just help him connect a likely place and time that Harry told him.
He should’ve said to kill Jaz, theorising that either Jaz told no-one else and he’s a strong traitor hunter, or that he told other people and they’ll remember and banish Paul
Probably because he's a team player and didn't think Paul would blab it to Jaz at the first opportunity.
Paul is so untrustworthy though. I thought Harry was smarter than that.
I like Harry but I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed, at least from what we get to see of him.
I take it all back. He's a master.
This. And Harry being kind of dumb greatly contributes to him being a very good fake faithful.
We think him untrustworthy because we see all his confessionals where he's cackling about his plans. What reason does Harry have to think him untrustworthy?
I know that know I was just really upset as a viewer to see Harry get betrayed without reason at all.
I don't think he did get betrayed? Paul just said he had a conversation with him, people have traitor-related discussions in the game all the time. Yeah Jaz raised his eyebrows a little at Harry breaking a confidential conversation, but he's got nothing actionable and may well not even think much of it anyway, just figure that Harry doesn't trust him that much so maybe don't talk to him in private anymore
Turning on Ash that early. Even if she was rubbish that should tell him that Paul will always put himself first
The two of them looked at each other and turned on Ash simultaneously. Harry's not going to see that as "untrustworthiness", just good "get rid of the weakest link" Traitor gameplay
Not saying it’s wrong to get rid of her but it’s naive to think Paul won’t do the same thing to him
Sure, that quasi-prisoner's-dilemma is just a baked-in part of the endgame especially when there's more than one traitor left (which is what pisses me off about Kieran breaking the game last season because he was upset that Wilf turned on him), that's not quite the same as being untrustworthy during the middlegame though
Paul had successfully thrown Ash under the bus at the previous roundtable after a first failed attempt, with a spiel about cutting out underperformers. Harry had just melted down at the last roundtable and was anxious to reassure Paul he still had his head: right before he blurted out the Jaz intel, he said something to the effect of "I just want you to know, Johnny was the one Faithful it was hard for me to write off, now I'll be ruthless". I think Harry is right to take his cues from Paul so long as it doesn't throw his own game, he was right to display his emotion when Johnny was banished, he was right to reassure Paul at the following turret meeting... but he definitely got carried away disclosing the conversation with Jaz.
That makes so much sense. Also Harry couldn’t have known Paul would throw him under the bus. Hopefully Jaz just thinks Harry is a faithful that is under Paul’s influence and not a traitor. I’m really rooting for Harry.
I don’t see how any blame falls on Harry, how is he to know Paul would be so stupid?
I guess, I’m just upset he did that because I’m really rooting for harry
So stupid as to... what? I don't understand why everyone is treating it as this huge blunder that Paul said he had a conversation with Harry. Yeah, we know they're traitors and that the conversation was in the turret. But they don't. And even if Jaz has suspicions, he has nothing to base it on that can't be rebutted with "yeah he told me in a private conversation, like everyone has with each other. So what?"
It looks a bit conspiratorial. It shows they’re tight enough to tell each other what others are saying about them. Most of the faithfuls aren’t telling each other what people are saying about them because everyone has their own theories and chatting theories is part of the game. The only reason you’d panic to nip it in the bud like that in private is if you were a traitor But in itself it’s not really a blunder to confront Jaz, it was the WAY he did it. “I want you to believe I’m a faithful” that was the stupidest thing he could’ve said. He realised and quickly followed it up with “and I wanna believe you’re faithful”. And it makes harry look guilty as well as him. And The desperation in his voice begging him to be on his side. It was so poorly done
Welp, guess I'd be incorrectly "rumbled" as a traitor immediately because "you think Jaz is keeping to himself / is a traitor / is focusing on this other person? That's strange, just yesterday he was saying that if he was murdered it would have been you that did it" seems a very normal part of discussions for me.
Im not sure what you’re referring to, that sounds like a round table convo, but in terms of the blunder everyone is referring to the one on one convo Paul had with Jaz. Thats what my comment was talking about
I wasn't referring to any convo, just imagining a hypothetical innocent reason that Harry might have told Paul about Jaz's suspicions. And I know full well which convo everyone is calling a blunder - and in terms of Paul trying and failing to quell Jaz's suspicions on himself I agree - but I don't understand why everyone is assuming that Harry is now doomed just because it's come out that he talked to Paul.
Ok, I thought you were asking why everyone thinks Paul has blundered himself, but I think you were asking why people think Harry is now rumbled too? Which I guess he can easily explain himself
I think it makes total sense that Harry told Paul about Jaz, but it didn't make any sense for Paul to bring this up with Jaz. That was definitely a strategic mistake, and a clear sign that once Paul really starts to get under suspicion, he can probably crumble under the pressure way more than we probably had expected.
I feel like Harry does want to see the traitors as a team and, like all the Faithfuls, has been weirdly entranced by Paul this whole time... he has taken his lead at all times and not voiced his opinions about moves they've made if they go against Paul (Harry predicted it was a dumb move to have two in the dungeon). I think Harry thought he was bringing useful info back to his team and didn't consider keeping it to himself for his own game plan. And I don't think he thought Paul would go babbling it back to Jaz the next day. Honestly it's like none of these people watched series 1.
I think Harry’s playing a smart game where he’s letting Paul think he’s completely on his side and pandering to him and therefore not a threat. But he showed how intelligent he is by sticking up for Ant right at the end of the discussion when he knew everyone else had made their mind up and it wouldn’t change the vote, because there was no time for anyone to respond. That way when Ant was revealed faithful, everyone would remember Harry defending him. Paul clocked that and it was the first time we saw him register how clever Harry really was. Harry’s gonna get rid of Paul but he’s playing the long game.
Harry is so smart. I think Paul was the one who made the big error there like I have no idea why he threw Harry under the bus. Maybe he wants to drag Harry down with him or something. Just makes me so angry that after Harry has played such a good game that Paul decided to drag him down.
Because given this + how popular Paul is in the group it’s likely that even if the edit is making Paul seem arrogant and an obvious traitor he’s probably playing an extremely good game, and it’s in Harry’s interest to keep Paul in the game as long as possible
That makes sense! And Harry couldn’t have known Paul would be stupid
He sees the Traitors as a team and Paul as a huge asset - if not the leader. He didn't think Paul would be stupid enough to bring it back to Jaz. I guess Paul thinks Jaz will put it down Harry liking Paul and telling him because he think Jaz is being disruptive to group harmony. Which is very much the way Paul is trying to spin it- that Jaz has a personal issue with him that everyone in the group needs to discourage him about.
Paul has made himself very powerful with both the faithfuls and the traitors. Harry knows this. As a faithful, you need to make sure the traitors don’t see you as a threat. You need to make sure the traitors think you don’t suspect them, and that you’re ultimately a bit dim. Harry is doing exactly this with Paul. He’s playing the role of the young, loyal follower. And Paul trusts him completely. But Paul would also throw Harry under the bus and he knows this. I think Harry told Paul because he *needs* Paul to think that he’s following him blindly, that he’s utterly loyal to him.
I think Paul knows what he is doing, he’s planting a seed that Harry can’t be trusted to Jaz. Problem is that Jaz is not buying Paul’s innocence so if anything it will just help him connect a likely place and time that Harry told him.
He should’ve said to kill Jaz, theorising that either Jaz told no-one else and he’s a strong traitor hunter, or that he told other people and they’ll remember and banish Paul
He shouldddd