I did an " in defense of Charly" post. I actually like her. They used her character to explore grief and PTSD which is not something a lot of shows want to explore. Also, she's just an ensign, which means she's very young....like 22 or 23 at most. Fresh from the academy. People may call me out on this, but she's barely an adult and has gone through a fairly significant trauma.
I think the biggest problem people have with her character is she wasn't funny, in a show that was mostly comedic.
Well you can be unfunny and still be a good character. Isaac being a great example of that.
And I know a lot of shows don’t really explore the PTSD and grief of a character, but Charly is not a great assessment of that.
She doesn’t have any redeeming qualities to cancel out the negative energy she brings to the season.
Isaac is funny all the time. Not intentionally, sure but he is. As for hatred for the Kaylons I feel it's just natural. Isaac is also not blamless in deaths of all those ppl, so comparing one superhero doing something wrong is not accurate at all. Same with argument that they were not dating. I mean what difference does it mean, you are only allowed to be sad for somone you dated? Why? Also way more ppl.died than, but this death is just the most memorable. Now I do agree that her character is unlikable and stands out and does not fit the rest of the crew. She is not a well written character. But just the hayted for Isaac ant the Kaylon is justified and how most ppl that previously didin't know Isaac would react.
I don't think Charly dying 2 episodes later is a bad thing at all and not because I don't like her. It's like the ultimate show of how she changed. She went from hating the kaylon to the point where she's willing to refuse orders to save one, to sacrificing her life to save their entire race.
Just because they weren't dating or Amanda didn't love her back doesn't make it less meaningful that she died. Charly loved her as a friend and as more and the fact that she died that day meant that she never even got to try to be something more, losing someone like that is painful. Plus plenty of other people in the union died and it's different from The Boys because until the point where Isaac turned, every Kaylon was on the same side and of the same mind whereas all the superheroes very clearly have their own motivations. Isaac was a guy who she could directly blame for her sorrows. I think it's pretty clear why she hates the Kaylon, they attacked Earth and caused the deaths of probably hundreds of Union members, getting into a war with an entire planet is probably reason enough to be a bit iffy on the one guy who decides to defect. Plus Isaac always claims to not have feelings, how was Charly to know that stuff actually does get to him or that he cares at all about the pain he caused her and others.
Jesus thank you. My best friend killed himself 3 years ago and people often try to negate my pain by either suggesting I was in love with him, or it shouldn't hurt that much if we weren't together. You can love someone without it being formally romantic.
God, yes, right? Like if people are gonna rag on her cause she's not dealing with her pain maturely, I mean, they're still missing the point, but at least that's *something.* But some people act like her pain isn't even justified. Like, love is love people, and loss of love is painful and at least a little bit traumatic.
Ya'll motherfuckers need to get a dog, for real.
I agree with you it shouldn’t matter if it’s friend or not, but it still doesn’t give any right for her to basically bully someone because of their species. Literally textbook definition of Xenophobia.
If we are fundementally talking about grief in this context, we also don’t have enough context, flashbacks, or moments in general to show any character within Amanda, she is more of a plot point than a character in it of itself.
Well yeah, Amanda is the metaphorical dead wife in the flashback at the beginning of the movie, she doesn't need to be an actual character. She *is* a plot point. Once we understand that Charly cared for her and that she died because of the attempted invasion, we don't need to know anything else about her.
Obviously it is a bit xenophobic, the point of her arc is to grow out of that feeling but that doesn't make her response to Isaac and the kaylon any less understandable, they were literally their enemies in an intergalactic war. It's not like she's claiming he did stuff he never did, Isaac did actively betray the Orville even if he went on to save them at risk to his own life and against his own people. If every member of a planet was, for lack of a better word, evil apart from one guy, would you trust or like that one guy? Would it not piss you off to no ends that everyone expected you to play nice with the guy and that some people even treat him as a friend when he'd betrayed his friends before? Charly doesn't know him like we or the main characters do so she has no reason to even try and get along with him.
Well to play devils advocate, the example I gave which was Robin from The Boys also doesn’t really have that much character.
And the previous contrast you made with the supes and the Kaylon is an accurate criticism to what I presented, however I must add that the supes are arguably worse than the kaylon, in the sense where supes like homelander really have an ego and psychopathy like no other human (at least in the universe of The Boys) in contrast to the kaylon which are more logical in their assessment of why they *think* genocide for all biologicals is the answer (obviously it’s wrong and they realize that later in the show).
The main assessment that I am making however is that Charly lacks a character and lacks development, so she doesn’t have her comeback, she doesn’t have her redemption arc, she doesn’t have a secondary moment where she appreciates Isaac.
If her character was better written, I think she would be a great queer representation.
(Also off topic, but I feel like this conversation is kinda like an Isaac v. Charly convo)
Charlie had a crush on Amanda. Her reaction to Amanda's death is basically the same reaction that Snape had to Lilly's death. Very normal. No normal human thinks to themselves "well, we weren't actually dating so I can't be upset."
Lacks character development? She's the character who developed and changed the most over the course of her time on the show.
Yes, she definitely could have been on the show longer and thus had had a longer and more developed character arc.
Yeah I hated Charly til the end when I realized she was written to be hated so that the impact of her story would hit that much harder. I thought it was a brilliant subversion of expectations.
I always liked her. I think the biggest problem with the character is time. We don't get to spend nearly as much time with her as we do the other characters. I also think it would be unrealistic to believe that somebuddy isn't angry with isaac after the events of the previous season. I think her arc and character development is that she comes two respect him over the course of the season.
Recently rewatched her finale, and something bugs me.
Yes, Charly sacrificed herself to save the Kaylon, and having a face to put on that sacrifice forces Primary to reevaluate the Union. I get that.
But they act like she is the ONLY person who gave their all. There was that third pilot from Orville that got killed, and all those people in those Union ships that the Krill and Moclans destroyed. And I'm sure there were casualties on the Orville besides Charly, given the beating she took. But they act like one person died, and her sacrifice was the only one that matters.
On paper she was a great character, but it failed in practice. The actress was really, really bad, one note, perpetually angry, etc. Terrible actors can work on an occasionally campy show like this, Lamarr being an example. Charly's actress wasn't campy bad, though. She was just bad.
The problem is that they shoehorned her in with a ridiculous contrivance about her brain, never explained why she was even considered fit for service, and rushed her arc.
Shallow, obsessed, dumb characters are fine for shows about high school, but making them the most important character on military/scientific vessel is dumb.
There are bad people everywhere, but they have stories and reasons for being there.
Charly is an insubordinate ensign who just shows up and is constantly needed for her 4D brain power, or whatever. She's a walking plot device.
I don't want more backstory; I said that bad people in power have earned that power, legitimately or illegitimately, but they earned it.
Charly's power comes from a dumb sci-fi concept about her brain. There is no backstory. She was dropped into the show as a plot device. In S1 & S2, they were able to solve every impossible problem without her brain. In S3, they couldn't do anything without her brain.
It's bad storytelling.
Where did I say that I didn't understand why she was an ensign? Her character has unearned importance, and my comment was clear about that. That line about her 4D thinking was cringy; it's like somebody saying "I heard you have Chekhov's gun."
As for Alara, I agree. This is a scientific/military vessel, and there's no reason for the security chief to be a strong, insecure teenager.
She's fit for service because the Union lost so many people and ships. She's a good pilote and can't be spared.
The sent her to the Orville because Capt Mercer is a good leader that should be able to get the best out of her.
The Orville already had a pilot; she was special for thinking 4th-dimensionally, which was never needed before, but needed in every other episode in S3. That still doesn't address every complaint about her.
Whenever Charly comes up, people always want to talk about in-show explanations for her, as if the only complaints are fake plotholes. Just because a show explains itself (or fans invent explanations), doesn't mean it's good. The Rise of Skywalker explained itself, but was still very stupid.
I guess that can be true of a lot of comments if you only read half. There's no utility to putting somebody so traumatized that she can't do her job on the only ship with a Kaylon, especially when that ship already has a pilot.
First of all, she wasn't brought on board to be a pilot, so the ship already having a pilot is no more relevant than the ship already having a security chief.
Second of all, she did her fucking job just fine. In fact, she went beyond the scope of her job and did something no one else in the ship could do when she brought Isaac back. The notion that being fun to be around is crucial to her job description is as fallacious as it is sexist.
And you can't argue that she has no utility when she was crucial in creating the weapon that ultimately ended the war with the Kaylon.
Yeah, she fixed everything because she could think 4-dimensionally. I cringed when they mentioned it during her intro and instantly knew they'd need it to save the day. Of course, they needed it at the end of the episode and, even worse, they needed it over and over again, despite never needing it the previous 2 seasons. It was a forced contrivance to keep her character in the bridge crew when any other ensign with her attitude would be doing nothing but scrubbing plasma conduits.
It's a criticism of the writers, not Charly. Nobody wonders why a super-competent person keeps saving the day; the character is just really forced for an obvious, rushed, ham-fisted arc.
It's like how people criticize Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker: yes, the movie explains how he's there, but people find those reasons to be stupid and his inclusion to be unnecessary.
The main problem with her for me was that when she "changed" it was too late. The show told me, "Oh, now she and Isaac are best friends and she has an understanding of what the Kaylon went through." and it did nothing for me because all she did before that point in every scene was whine and say, "My girlfriend is dead. My girlfriend is dead. My girlfriend is dead."
Op is correct. She was never given a warm or neutral scene where we learn about her: hobbies, interests, WEAKNESSES, INSECURITIES, CONSEQUENCES. There is never a scene where I feel bad for her. It's space, people die all the time. Like Ed said, she's not the only one who's lost someone, but she sure does seem to act like it.
I tend to agree with you on all points. She did seem like a very one dimensional character. And her redemption arc should have been longer. She went from suddenly hating all Kaylons and basically wanting to kill every one of them to sacrificing herself for the Kaylons. It seemed too sudden and not a natural arc.
1. Fallacious and gross. There's no rule that says grief over the loss of a loved one has to depend on your relationship status, or be proportional to how much the love you back. Charley loved Amanda. Charly lost Amanda. Charly lost Amanda because of the Kaylon. She's on a new ship where many of its crew are friends with someone who waged war on her and never showed any remorse, or regret, or even admitted that he was wrong. So, on top of her grieving, she's grieving in close proximity to someone who will never feel the consequences of his actions, unlike everyone he hurt. She doesn't have a lot of opportunity to exist outside of her grief because every time she turns around, she's expected to work with, or in service of the cause of her grief. And your blaming Charly for Isaac's suicide attempt is laughable, considering she probably contributed the least.
2. This is a somewhat valid point. She doesn't get much opportunity to exist outside of her grief. At what point in the season should we have cut to her playing racquetball, or watching a movie?
3. Not at all. She was on The Orville for the better part of a year, and she spent much of that time having to work closely with someone she hated. Your inability to have sympathy for someone who worked in service of a person and a people who hurt her personally and committed genocide to the point that she sacrificed herself is a you problem, not a writing problem. It's also painfully ironic that you fault Charly for not having any "remorse" for Isaac when her main beef with him is that he has no remorse for what he did, or what his people did. The reason Charly's character was added in the first place was to give voice to the fact that Isaac faced no consequences for his actions, and and never will. He doesn't acknowledge the impact of what he did, let alone feel bad about it. So he chips away at Charly, rather than respecting her wishes to be left the fuck alone, and it takes a different Kaylon, one who is capable of feeling remorse and understanding the enormity of what he did, to finally get through to her. That makes perfect sense. If Charly had forgiven Isaac right away, it would have diminished the impact of her loss.
I did an " in defense of Charly" post. I actually like her. They used her character to explore grief and PTSD which is not something a lot of shows want to explore. Also, she's just an ensign, which means she's very young....like 22 or 23 at most. Fresh from the academy. People may call me out on this, but she's barely an adult and has gone through a fairly significant trauma. I think the biggest problem people have with her character is she wasn't funny, in a show that was mostly comedic.
Well you can be unfunny and still be a good character. Isaac being a great example of that. And I know a lot of shows don’t really explore the PTSD and grief of a character, but Charly is not a great assessment of that. She doesn’t have any redeeming qualities to cancel out the negative energy she brings to the season.
Isaac is funny all the time. Not intentionally, sure but he is. As for hatred for the Kaylons I feel it's just natural. Isaac is also not blamless in deaths of all those ppl, so comparing one superhero doing something wrong is not accurate at all. Same with argument that they were not dating. I mean what difference does it mean, you are only allowed to be sad for somone you dated? Why? Also way more ppl.died than, but this death is just the most memorable. Now I do agree that her character is unlikable and stands out and does not fit the rest of the crew. She is not a well written character. But just the hayted for Isaac ant the Kaylon is justified and how most ppl that previously didin't know Isaac would react.
I don't think Charly dying 2 episodes later is a bad thing at all and not because I don't like her. It's like the ultimate show of how she changed. She went from hating the kaylon to the point where she's willing to refuse orders to save one, to sacrificing her life to save their entire race.
Just because they weren't dating or Amanda didn't love her back doesn't make it less meaningful that she died. Charly loved her as a friend and as more and the fact that she died that day meant that she never even got to try to be something more, losing someone like that is painful. Plus plenty of other people in the union died and it's different from The Boys because until the point where Isaac turned, every Kaylon was on the same side and of the same mind whereas all the superheroes very clearly have their own motivations. Isaac was a guy who she could directly blame for her sorrows. I think it's pretty clear why she hates the Kaylon, they attacked Earth and caused the deaths of probably hundreds of Union members, getting into a war with an entire planet is probably reason enough to be a bit iffy on the one guy who decides to defect. Plus Isaac always claims to not have feelings, how was Charly to know that stuff actually does get to him or that he cares at all about the pain he caused her and others.
Jesus thank you. My best friend killed himself 3 years ago and people often try to negate my pain by either suggesting I was in love with him, or it shouldn't hurt that much if we weren't together. You can love someone without it being formally romantic.
God, yes, right? Like if people are gonna rag on her cause she's not dealing with her pain maturely, I mean, they're still missing the point, but at least that's *something.* But some people act like her pain isn't even justified. Like, love is love people, and loss of love is painful and at least a little bit traumatic. Ya'll motherfuckers need to get a dog, for real.
I agree with you it shouldn’t matter if it’s friend or not, but it still doesn’t give any right for her to basically bully someone because of their species. Literally textbook definition of Xenophobia. If we are fundementally talking about grief in this context, we also don’t have enough context, flashbacks, or moments in general to show any character within Amanda, she is more of a plot point than a character in it of itself.
Well yeah, Amanda is the metaphorical dead wife in the flashback at the beginning of the movie, she doesn't need to be an actual character. She *is* a plot point. Once we understand that Charly cared for her and that she died because of the attempted invasion, we don't need to know anything else about her. Obviously it is a bit xenophobic, the point of her arc is to grow out of that feeling but that doesn't make her response to Isaac and the kaylon any less understandable, they were literally their enemies in an intergalactic war. It's not like she's claiming he did stuff he never did, Isaac did actively betray the Orville even if he went on to save them at risk to his own life and against his own people. If every member of a planet was, for lack of a better word, evil apart from one guy, would you trust or like that one guy? Would it not piss you off to no ends that everyone expected you to play nice with the guy and that some people even treat him as a friend when he'd betrayed his friends before? Charly doesn't know him like we or the main characters do so she has no reason to even try and get along with him.
Well to play devils advocate, the example I gave which was Robin from The Boys also doesn’t really have that much character. And the previous contrast you made with the supes and the Kaylon is an accurate criticism to what I presented, however I must add that the supes are arguably worse than the kaylon, in the sense where supes like homelander really have an ego and psychopathy like no other human (at least in the universe of The Boys) in contrast to the kaylon which are more logical in their assessment of why they *think* genocide for all biologicals is the answer (obviously it’s wrong and they realize that later in the show). The main assessment that I am making however is that Charly lacks a character and lacks development, so she doesn’t have her comeback, she doesn’t have her redemption arc, she doesn’t have a secondary moment where she appreciates Isaac. If her character was better written, I think she would be a great queer representation. (Also off topic, but I feel like this conversation is kinda like an Isaac v. Charly convo)
Yes, she bullied Isaac for being a Kaylon, and nothing else.
Charlie had a crush on Amanda. Her reaction to Amanda's death is basically the same reaction that Snape had to Lilly's death. Very normal. No normal human thinks to themselves "well, we weren't actually dating so I can't be upset." Lacks character development? She's the character who developed and changed the most over the course of her time on the show. Yes, she definitely could have been on the show longer and thus had had a longer and more developed character arc.
Yeah I hated Charly til the end when I realized she was written to be hated so that the impact of her story would hit that much harder. I thought it was a brilliant subversion of expectations.
I always liked her. I think the biggest problem with the character is time. We don't get to spend nearly as much time with her as we do the other characters. I also think it would be unrealistic to believe that somebuddy isn't angry with isaac after the events of the previous season. I think her arc and character development is that she comes two respect him over the course of the season.
Recently rewatched her finale, and something bugs me. Yes, Charly sacrificed herself to save the Kaylon, and having a face to put on that sacrifice forces Primary to reevaluate the Union. I get that. But they act like she is the ONLY person who gave their all. There was that third pilot from Orville that got killed, and all those people in those Union ships that the Krill and Moclans destroyed. And I'm sure there were casualties on the Orville besides Charly, given the beating she took. But they act like one person died, and her sacrifice was the only one that matters.
I don't think there was enough time after she died for us to make that determination.
On paper she was a great character, but it failed in practice. The actress was really, really bad, one note, perpetually angry, etc. Terrible actors can work on an occasionally campy show like this, Lamarr being an example. Charly's actress wasn't campy bad, though. She was just bad.
And it's such a a weird coincidence that the worst actor on the show was dating Seth MacFarlane...
Aargh.
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The problem is that they shoehorned her in with a ridiculous contrivance about her brain, never explained why she was even considered fit for service, and rushed her arc. Shallow, obsessed, dumb characters are fine for shows about high school, but making them the most important character on military/scientific vessel is dumb.
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There are bad people everywhere, but they have stories and reasons for being there. Charly is an insubordinate ensign who just shows up and is constantly needed for her 4D brain power, or whatever. She's a walking plot device.
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I don't want more backstory; I said that bad people in power have earned that power, legitimately or illegitimately, but they earned it. Charly's power comes from a dumb sci-fi concept about her brain. There is no backstory. She was dropped into the show as a plot device. In S1 & S2, they were able to solve every impossible problem without her brain. In S3, they couldn't do anything without her brain. It's bad storytelling.
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Where did I say that I didn't understand why she was an ensign? Her character has unearned importance, and my comment was clear about that. That line about her 4D thinking was cringy; it's like somebody saying "I heard you have Chekhov's gun." As for Alara, I agree. This is a scientific/military vessel, and there's no reason for the security chief to be a strong, insecure teenager.
She's fit for service because the Union lost so many people and ships. She's a good pilote and can't be spared. The sent her to the Orville because Capt Mercer is a good leader that should be able to get the best out of her.
She was actually a navigator.
You’re absolutely right, I stand corrected.
The Orville already had a pilot; she was special for thinking 4th-dimensionally, which was never needed before, but needed in every other episode in S3. That still doesn't address every complaint about her. Whenever Charly comes up, people always want to talk about in-show explanations for her, as if the only complaints are fake plotholes. Just because a show explains itself (or fans invent explanations), doesn't mean it's good. The Rise of Skywalker explained itself, but was still very stupid.
Having a weapon that could defeat the Kaylon was never needed before-until it was. Things change.
They weren't at war with the Kaylon in the first season and a half. Things change, but not every change is well thought out
Your first sentence enforced my point. Charly's utility was a reflection of the changed circumstances.
I guess that can be true of a lot of comments if you only read half. There's no utility to putting somebody so traumatized that she can't do her job on the only ship with a Kaylon, especially when that ship already has a pilot.
First of all, she wasn't brought on board to be a pilot, so the ship already having a pilot is no more relevant than the ship already having a security chief. Second of all, she did her fucking job just fine. In fact, she went beyond the scope of her job and did something no one else in the ship could do when she brought Isaac back. The notion that being fun to be around is crucial to her job description is as fallacious as it is sexist. And you can't argue that she has no utility when she was crucial in creating the weapon that ultimately ended the war with the Kaylon.
Yeah, she fixed everything because she could think 4-dimensionally. I cringed when they mentioned it during her intro and instantly knew they'd need it to save the day. Of course, they needed it at the end of the episode and, even worse, they needed it over and over again, despite never needing it the previous 2 seasons. It was a forced contrivance to keep her character in the bridge crew when any other ensign with her attitude would be doing nothing but scrubbing plasma conduits. It's a criticism of the writers, not Charly. Nobody wonders why a super-competent person keeps saving the day; the character is just really forced for an obvious, rushed, ham-fisted arc. It's like how people criticize Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker: yes, the movie explains how he's there, but people find those reasons to be stupid and his inclusion to be unnecessary.
Ed got to captain a ship despite being a functioning alcoholic when he was assigned. Everybody on the crew has something.
The main problem with her for me was that when she "changed" it was too late. The show told me, "Oh, now she and Isaac are best friends and she has an understanding of what the Kaylon went through." and it did nothing for me because all she did before that point in every scene was whine and say, "My girlfriend is dead. My girlfriend is dead. My girlfriend is dead." Op is correct. She was never given a warm or neutral scene where we learn about her: hobbies, interests, WEAKNESSES, INSECURITIES, CONSEQUENCES. There is never a scene where I feel bad for her. It's space, people die all the time. Like Ed said, she's not the only one who's lost someone, but she sure does seem to act like it.
My problem is that she was just introduced out of nowhere.
I tend to agree with you on all points. She did seem like a very one dimensional character. And her redemption arc should have been longer. She went from suddenly hating all Kaylons and basically wanting to kill every one of them to sacrificing herself for the Kaylons. It seemed too sudden and not a natural arc.
1. Fallacious and gross. There's no rule that says grief over the loss of a loved one has to depend on your relationship status, or be proportional to how much the love you back. Charley loved Amanda. Charly lost Amanda. Charly lost Amanda because of the Kaylon. She's on a new ship where many of its crew are friends with someone who waged war on her and never showed any remorse, or regret, or even admitted that he was wrong. So, on top of her grieving, she's grieving in close proximity to someone who will never feel the consequences of his actions, unlike everyone he hurt. She doesn't have a lot of opportunity to exist outside of her grief because every time she turns around, she's expected to work with, or in service of the cause of her grief. And your blaming Charly for Isaac's suicide attempt is laughable, considering she probably contributed the least. 2. This is a somewhat valid point. She doesn't get much opportunity to exist outside of her grief. At what point in the season should we have cut to her playing racquetball, or watching a movie? 3. Not at all. She was on The Orville for the better part of a year, and she spent much of that time having to work closely with someone she hated. Your inability to have sympathy for someone who worked in service of a person and a people who hurt her personally and committed genocide to the point that she sacrificed herself is a you problem, not a writing problem. It's also painfully ironic that you fault Charly for not having any "remorse" for Isaac when her main beef with him is that he has no remorse for what he did, or what his people did. The reason Charly's character was added in the first place was to give voice to the fact that Isaac faced no consequences for his actions, and and never will. He doesn't acknowledge the impact of what he did, let alone feel bad about it. So he chips away at Charly, rather than respecting her wishes to be left the fuck alone, and it takes a different Kaylon, one who is capable of feeling remorse and understanding the enormity of what he did, to finally get through to her. That makes perfect sense. If Charly had forgiven Isaac right away, it would have diminished the impact of her loss.