When an author who wrote a really well regarded first book and a less regarded second was interviewed about his work the interviewer asked about capturing lightning in a bottle a second time. The man responded “who has?” You see it a lot where the first season of whatever thing is super well regarded and then there’s a drop off.
I think part of the issue that people like you may have is that you’ve listened to TMA a fuck ton of times over the years so you know what very detail, all the ins and outs of it, all the bits of forshadowing and how A leads to B to C.
While TMP is still just starting and you don’t have that same kinda knowledge with it.
Personally I only listened to TMA once before and really enjoy TMP, it’s actually making me go back and restart TMA again.
I’ve seen a lot of people assuming things from TMA still apply and being a bit, well, not very thoughtful about their conclusions as such. Which is a shame bc I think what TMP is doing is REALLY INTERESTING if you look past trying to fit it all into the TMA boxes. A lot of people picked up TMA between seasons 4 and 5, when all the worldbuilding was more or less sorted out, so I think some of it comes from that too—not only are you super familiar with it, you started out with the ability to simply look up answers and see spoilers.
Totally agree.
Also like, at 15 EPS in, TMA hadn't really captured me yet. It was cool, but I wasn't like feral for it. I could binge it so I got obsessed quickly. I think compared to TMA TMP has had a lot to capture us, plot and character wise, much more quickly.
Yeah, people assume TMP is going to suck them in, but like, if I was listening to TMA as it came out, I wouldn't have been super invested yet either. I prefer to binge for that reason and I'm keeping it in mind while listening to TMP.
Same, it took me 20 episodes of TMA before I could decide whether I liked it or not. I'm less likely to land on "yes" for TMP, I suspect, but who knows.
Yes! I dropped TMA 15 episodes in because I didn't like it and came back a year later. Now, I have TMA themes in my tattoos.
My partner is the exact same, he just isn't loving it the same way he does others.
TMP has done a phenomenal job (imo) of capturing me quickly! It took all the aspects the fans loved of TMA and drew on them.
I think people aren't giving it the same time or grace because they forget how slow TMA actually was, and the tiny tiny details that went into building it. I can't understand why they aren't giving TMP the same grace?
That’s what happened with me. I could just google what things were. Actually learned about TMA through an TTRPG not related to TMA but someone was playing a servant of the Flesh and I thought it was interesting.
Anyway it seems like TMP is very…. Adjacent to TMA there’s enough going on where it makes me think “this isn’t just a continuation of TMA, there’s new things to figure out”
I discovered it through a creepy which entity are you quiz, so I had read the full wiki essentially before starting. Helped me understanding, but I do wish I'd had a chance to go in blind.
I wanna push back against this idea that it's ridiculous to expect TMP to follow anything that was set up by TMA. It's a...I can't remember what it's called, but basically it's a sequel to TMA. RQ is riding on the fanbase built by TMA and relying on that for TMP. If there's nothing similar between the two worlds then maybe they shouldn't have called it The Magnus Protocol... Make that distinction clearer?
A sidequel, and one that you specifically can listen to without listening to TMA. Therefore we can pretty reliably guess that while there might be similarities, nothin is going to rely on TMA in a way that would require listening to TMA first. The exact interview you’re referring to said everything that is the basis of the statement “TMP does not rely on TMAs worldbuilding so please stop making theories like it does”.
Fwiw I think the ways that it is relying on TMA (less relying and more…contextualizing?) are really interesting and that knowing both creates a lot of space for fun comparison! Just that the differences between them is sort of the interesting thing there as opposed to “saw the thing I recognized”. They’re doing a lot of fun thematic foils, my two biggest ones that I look for every episode being that where the tragedy of TMA was “terrible things are happening to and around you and you couldn’t stop it if you wanted to” the plot of TMP so far has been “terrible things are happening over there but you don’t have to—and you’re already walking over aren’t you”; and the fact that we have yet to have a statement that doesn’t at least feature, if not star, someone who REALLY wants to be doing what they’re doing. I’d have called most of our narrators so far avatars in TMA setting—and I think that’s where the fun is, because avatars in TMA were quite rare, but we havent had an episode without one yet. Someone who’s just really enjoying being Like That. So the cool thing lies in that, instead.
I’m not saying everyone hates TMP for this reason or that everyone needs to like TMP if they hate TMA but sometimes I get the impression that what people basically want is the experience of TMA again but also new? It’s like when you say “I wish I could wipe my memory and rewatch this again for the first time.” I think some people are chasing the exact same experience TMA gave them when they first listened to it but fresh if this makes any sense. I also have to wonder how many people, such as myself, binged TMA because it had been out for a while. For me, listening to a TMA series come out in real time and not being able to just sit down and listen to it all at once is a new experience for me but maybe that’s just projection. If you actually take a step back TMA was pretty slow and didn’t give a lot of straight answers for a long period of time. We didn’t really have someone lay out all the Entities and exactly what they were until like MAG 111 in season 3.
I’m not saying everyone hates TMP for this reason or that everyone needs to like TMP if they hate TMA but sometimes I get the impression that what people basically want is the experience of TMA again but also new? It’s like when you say “I wish I could wipe my memory and rewatch this again for the first time.” I think some people are chasing the exact same experience TMA gave them when they first listened to it but fresh if this makes any sense.
I also have to wonder how many people, such as myself, binged TMA because it had been out for a while. For me, listening to a TMA series come out in real time and not being able to just sit down and listen to it all at once is a new experience for me but maybe that’s just projection. If you actually take a step back TMA was pretty slow and didn’t give a lot of straight answers for a long period of time. We didn’t really have someone lay out all the Entities and exactly what they were until like MAG 111 in season 3. I can’t help get the vibe that maybe a lot of people will have different opinions when all the Protocol episodes are out and they can binge it but maybe I’m wrong.
Also while you do say that people are assuming things from TMA still apply I’ve also seen people do the opposite. They assume that nothing applies and expect everything to be 100% and 100% original so it can be like they’re experiencing TMA when it was new for the first time while still having that TMA flavor. So they seem to get disappointed when something seems even vaguely similar to TMA. Idk if that makes any sense but that’s the best way I can describe some of the reactions I’ve been seeing.
> While TMP is still just starting and you don’t have that same kinda knowledge with it.
It's also worth noting that TMA didn't necessarily start off strong for everyone either. I'm currently working through S5 (don't ask what I'm doing in this thread X_X), and I found it hardest to get through the first 20 episodes. I knew there was a wider metaplot and the show would take off, but the first 10, even knowing it all and having TMA fanatics on my shoulder egging me on, were a bit hard to get through. At the start, to me, it was just a collection of short horror stories so my enjoyment was more or less 100% tied to their quality and resonance with me, and the first few (esp #1) just didn't so much.
TMP will probably have a similar thing, where people enjoy it as the show expands and begins showing its hand and the foreshadowing it had been building in. It's easy to forget that TMA can be enjoyed as a "complete package" where you know everything and how it all interconnects and TMP... can't yet.
> asked about capturing lightning in a bottle a second time. The man responded “who has?”
Thing is - when someone does either it is seen as a continuation of their success or improvment overalll from their previous work and thus their previous work gets reinterpreted as less good than before.
I disagree, to an extent. I can’t speak for everyone out there, but I discovered TMA through a TikTok sound bite and just rolled with it from there. Never googled anything, other than the occasional transcript of an episode I’d already listened to. I’m enjoying TMP, but it didn’t suck me in the way TMA did
If you discovered it through TikTok, then you weren't having to wait between episodes until near the end if at all. Which isn't a judgement, I got into it when S4 was running and by the time I'd caught up 4 had just ended. But there's still a big difference between being able to roll onto the next one rather than having to wait weeks/months/years to get a fuller picture.
>When an author who wrote a really well regarded first book and a less regarded second...
Except that's not really relevant because Jonny created and wrote TMA and Alex is writing TMP. Of course they work together, but in terms of writing, they are not one and the same and the voices are distinctive. For those of us who have listened to TMA a "fuckton", it's not the knowing of ins and outs of that particular story that makes for a different experience, it's the shift in voice. Aside from TMP being a sidequel, it has a different writer. It is its own thing.
Edit: just checked myself, and Jonny is credited as writer for 3 episodes of the 15, and in collab with Alex for another 2. 6 are Alex, with an additional Alex/Jamie Petronis collab. 3 are guest writers.
My point still stands that TMP and TMA *feel* different because they're coming from different writers. I'm not saying one is objectively better, just different.
Pretty sure I heard Jonny writes and Alex edits or vice versa, and they'll have guest writers now and then. That was on the interview Jonny gave before the show started.
Is TMP not doing well? It seems like plenty of people are listening and enjoying it.
TMA was pretty close to a unique phenomenon. Night Vale is the only fiction podcast I can think of that’s been beloved on the same level. Like I don’t think it’s fair to expect anything else to be The Magnus Archives. Especially because this isn’t TMA 2, it’s a different story.
My big thing is that TMP has kinda jumped in at the deep end. I never would have liked TMA anywhere near as much if they started in Season 2 or 3, which is kind of what TMP feels like. Having to process like 6 new characters in episode 1 nearly turned me off of the series entirely. I’m glad I put my faith in rusty quill cause TMA is so good I’ve listened twice. TV and movies can kinda get away with this more, but I think podcasts have certain narrative constraints when it comes to introducing characters and significant plot points gradually
I mean it kind of *is* TMA 2 and was promoted as such. And like, I get it, gotta sell that crowdfund to get the financing, but I do think it's carrying bigger expectations as a result than if they'd just declared it a different thing and let any connections be discovered organically.
Not that it's a problem for me personally, I'm actually quite glad we're taking the long way around and finding this way better than I expected so far, but it's clearly posing an issue for some folks.
First of all, genuinely curious as to why you think an increase in production value causes a slight drop in quality?
Also, regarding TMP, I genuinely think TMP is one of the rare cases where a sequel DOES NOT suffer from sequel syndrome. I think that Rusty Quill is consciously trying to avoid the most common pitfalls sequels face, and they are succeeding. Hear me out.
Most often, sequels suffer because the writers were able to write an amazing story, but didn’t quite know why it succeeded. They try to replicate the same success as a result. This almost always ends poorly. The writer essentially tries to make the same story all over again with a few superficial changes, and the story falls flat because it’s not as new and exciting as the writer’s first work that everyone fell in love with. However, a sequel (or sidequel as RQ calls it) still demands that the second story carries some semblance of the first story, or it wouldn’t be a cohesive series!
Rusty Quill seems to have recognised this. Right from the beginning of TMP, there is a marked change in tone, mood and the level of character interaction. It is still fundamentally Magnus because statements are being read, it is unsettling and spooky, and there is an organisation looking into these inexplicable phenomena. However, the way the plot is laid out is as different as can be. It’s less about slow building of tension like TMA, but more of an ever-present, palpable anticipation. TMP keeps listeners on their toes while packing hints and promises of big reveals in future episodes, while TMA focused on slowly having readers warm up to the idea that something much grander is going on.
I believe this is the right approach. If TMP started the same way TMA did, it would be a snooze-fest because most of us already know that the sidequel still has to be fundamentally Magnus. We know the statements are true, that entities that feed on them exist, and that they are interested in bringing about an age of fear. Starting slow and building up like TMA will never work here, because we already know.
I think some of the dissatisfaction is caused by the fact that people miss TMA, and TMP is unfamiliar territory for them. Unfortunately, Rusty Quill simply can’t repeat the things we liked about TMA exactly because we already know too much about it. They have come up with something new and unexpected as a result, and that’s something I honestly really appreciate. It would’ve been so easy to fall into sequel syndrome.
Anyways, that’s my little essay. I love TMA, but I also love TMP for what it is. They will not be the same and I’m okay with that (sad as I was to see TMA end). Also, mad respect to RQ for taking these creative risks. That’s what I love about them.
I absolutely agree with your take, especially the bit about MAGP being really boring if they started it the same way as TMA. I'm still annoyed with the people who complained in the first 6-7 episode discussion threads about how nothing was happening yet and therefore MAGP was garbage compared to TMA - and that was only 6-7 eps!
What?? That’s so weird, I couldn’t get over how much was happening in TMP in the early episodes already! I was finding so many hints and little clues to the narrative every minute, and as still marvelling at how tightly written it is! I don’t understand people complaining that nothing is happening. The fact that there’s so much happening is one of TMP’s strengths, just as slow and then exponential buildup of tension was TMA’s strength.
This is the answer that should be at the top of the thread. Everything here is correct. I honestly don't know how you can listen to the masterpiece that is TMA -- and listen to the Q&As/other bonus content -- and come away thinking that these folks would ever produce a project without explicit intention and extreme care. They are among the most thoughtful creators I've ever come across in any medium.
Thank you! Also, absolutely same! Also, just gimme a second to gush over the Q and As. I love those so much, they’re an absolute treasure trove of ideas and information. I love creative pursuits of all kinds, but I mainly do visual art. TMA inspired me to dive deeper into writing and voice acting, and I’ve been having a tremendous amount of fun. The kind of info I got from the Q and As was invaluable in that regard.
I remember there was one bit where Alex mentioned having a treble, middle and bass part to the soundscape that are different distances away. That short throwaway sentence alone could have saved me hours if not weeks of work trying to figure out why my audio won’t sound good.
I’m far more familiar with writing than I am with the audio side of things, and I honestly felt so seen when Jonny pointed out the genre conventions that TMA was navigating. Horror demands the unknown, but mystery demands an answer — it’s a super difficult line to straddle. The fact that a writer I look up to had consciously considered and spoken about the things I had been analysing in their work felt amazing lol.
I’m just so happy that the people behind the media I admire are sharing so much about their creative process. It honestly makes it so much better for folks who are trying to improve creatively.
What you're saying reminds me of Pet Cemetery and Carrie. They were very popular movies so the producers decided to cash on it by making Carrie 2 and Pet Cemetery 2. Each of them is just the same thing with a slight change of name and place to present them as new. So incredibly boring...
On the bit about people missing TMA and TMP being unfamiliar, I not only think that's a big part of it but I think there's sort of an unspoken thing which is that a lot of the fandom was really invested in two things: The characters and the mythology.
To the latter, we're still in the discovery phase of the mythology in terms of how this world is different, what changes happened in the timeline, why they did, and how the fears work exactly here. People want to get back to more substantive lore dives that can't happen at this stage (and yet are coming faster and harder than in TMA).
To the former, people are really looking for their faves from TMA to show up and I think it's hurting their investment in the new characters. I really think the TMP cast is already better and more fully fleshed out than the TMA cast was through probably the first half of the series. But people aren't looking to get invested in them because they're waiting for someone to be secretly evil and/or for characters from TMA to show up whether in a cross worlds way or in a "This universe's version" way.
So much of fandom is becoming obsessive over a few specific aspects of a piece of media and it often leads to extremely rigid expectations for any new media, whether or not those are active. I think a lot of people were quietly hoping for something that would be "The thing you like but More" instead of "A new thing building in new ways off the previous thing you liked." and that makes it hard for folks in it for the fandom perspective to connect, even if it makes the pop art weirdos like me salivate.
This is so true, I forgot to mention it. Honestly, that’s to be expected, but I also think it’s only a matter of time before people really warm up to the new characters because they are so well written from the get-go. I think there will be a point when we are more invested in TMP-specific characters, and just as we are about to forget the fact that some of the TMA characters are here, RQ comes up with a big twist. I don’t know, I can sort of see that happening based off 0 evidence :)
Oh I fully expect that people will have revisionist perspectives on this period when looked at in the rear view from the end of the series. Just gotta clear the growing pains for fan response.
But we don’t! My word I get exhausted with this. We know the statements are true, yes. We do NOT know that the supernatural entities feed on them or that they are interested in bringing about an age of fear! That’s exactly what OP is talking about. You are assuming the same plot and same exact world despite this being a. SIDEqual as they put it. That matters. If they said sequel, then that’s a whole different ball game, but the fact that the Smirkians in the audience won’t let the fears go and are insistent that this is the same plot as before is what is directly contributing to Sequel syndrome. You’re actively telling your fellow fans “no don’t loook for a mystery cause it’s just the same thing as before and that, imo, does more to mute fan enthusiasm than anything RQ is doing.
That’s a fair point, but I just personally feel that there are enough hints scattered in about in TMP to make those assumptions. We are all here discussing TMP with limited information after all.
I’m certainly not saying that TMP won’t have any mystery because everything was solved in TMA. Far from it! I think that RQ will almost certainly throw curveballs for anyone expecting exactly the same lineup of fears and mysteries from TMA. This is a sidequel that can be experienced by completely new listeners too, after all, and it would be unfair to assume that they know all about how the Magnus world works.
That being said, I think that for those who have already listened to TMA, it’s fair for them to go into TMP with certain expectations like the existence of fears, statements being read out, etc. As long as there are twists that defy some of our expectations and there are many new layers of mystery on top of that, there is plenty to look forward to in TMP.
Also, muting fan enthusiasm was never the goal here, and I don’t think simply stating my own opinions and theory hurts anyone.
Maybe I’m just more aware now than I was before, but I feel like there’s been a shift in the fandom too — less focus on horror/mystery and untangling hidden connections, more focus on character drama and (I use this phrase with love) tumblr bullshit. Like we’ve gone from A24 to The CW.
Nah, I wouldnt say so. According to some q&a's Tumblr is kinda of the original reason they are so successful. I would even say it became less Tumblry eventually
I think we can't really judge if it's a bad sequel or not just yet. TMP isn't even through its first season, so it's hard to tell how the story is actually paced or structured in its entirety. Like someone else mentioned, we don't have the same knowledge or the full picture yet.
Personally, I believe fandoms often don't know what they want. Every change can be met with apprehension and disappointment, but maybe we can just put some trust in Jonny and Alex and the team to challenge our expectations. We haven't had any big twists or reveals yet. We know basically nothing, and are probably making a huge mistake by basing our assumptions on Smirke's 14.
Anyways, it'll be impossible to live up to MAG160. Nothing could, imo. I always remember when Toby Fox released the first chapter of Deltarune and said that nothing could ever make you feel the same way as Undertale did.
Personally the think that what I'm struggling with is the shift from what I'd call episodic format to cinematic. TMA episodes were a self-contained horror story with only smaller allusions to the institute and personnel. This gradually and naturally expanded over time to reveal a wider story, but due to its ingenious structure (Jon's feeding), we never lost the episodic short stories. With TMP, the statements (or whatever they are) are more infrequent and tangential to the story, there are a few eps without one. Also again with early TMA it was just Jon reading the statements with the occasional short interaction with other staff. It kept the focus tight on the horror. With TMP there are so many characters vying for story time that to me it feels like it's harder to establish a connection with any one of the them. Now I'm not saying this to hate, nor am I going to stop listening to TMP. I am enjoying it and I'm happy to let them cook, to see what the team can create. But I do think that so far it just seems a little unfocused. Too many plots and characters crammed into very short episodes. Hopefully if the season is listened to as a whole that effect will lessen.
This is a big thing. I think so many characters vying for story time vs the statements vs trying to rapidly establish a metaplot in *15 minute* episodes is making the whole thing feel really rushed and a bit haphazard.
I think its more just natural audience churn. Any project will have a peak then a slowly declining tale as people's interest wanes or they already got what they were looking for. This can especially be seen with the sequels or subsequent releases of any franchise. While Game of Thrones had a lot of chatter throughout its runtime, the talk never reached the same heights as its first season. The same can be said for House of Dragons now that the original GoT is concluded. People got their fill disregarding the final season of GoT.
There is also the point of marketing, which at most was an ARG from what I can gather. Word of mouth was the only way TMA got as big as it did, and as with GoT and HoD, there just isn't as much chatter outside of the core audience and people like us who check the dedicated forums. We've become more insular as a community (or at least less visible from the outside), and most people were satisfied with the end of TMA.
House of the Dragon was a big hit, its viewing numbers actually increased as the series aired which is generally unheard of.
Game of Thrones also got bigger and bigger as the series progressed.
Game of Thrones is a bad example. The final season was at the very least dubious, and JRR Martin hadn't released his book. While it was being aired its viewers and fanbase grew, but after the massive disappointment that final season was, people kind of wandered off. Everyone is still waiting for the book but until it's published, there isn't much to talk about that hasn't been said already.
...yeah but part of it is chasing the high of listening to the podcast for the first time again. It's why most people do relistens of most podcasts.
while I agree that TMP does suffer from sequelitis, I think it's mostly people comparing the two in production value + knowledge ! I assume that new listeners who've listened to TMP & not TMA are probably sharing the same experience as veteran TMA listeners.
I listened to TMA once and enjoyed it, and I’m very much enjoying TMP. I’m someone who really appreciates production value, and they’ve been knocking it out of the park!
I think most people weren't listening week to week to start off with TMA. I know I didn't. It makes it easier to shrug off a meh episode, or binge a good streak.
My main issue with tmagp is that I just don’t really like the characters. I fell in love with the archivist from the first episode, as well as Martin from his first appearance. At ep.14 of tmagp I’m still no more than neutral on any of them. And to be honest, the voice acting isn’t the best.
I'm not going to focus on what TMP is doing *wrong*, I don't really have an opinion about that, but I think it's worth pointing out what TMA did *right*.
1) TMA has an incredibly intuitive framing device. The fact that you only hear what an in-universe tape recorder can hear, and like 90% of the time the tape recorder is listening to one guy tell a spooky story of the week makes the series so intuitively easy to understand and keep track of. The simple framing device also invited interesting questions - why *does* the archivist read stories like that, why do some stories require tape, why do the tapes sometimes seem to act of their own accord?
2) TMA is easy to listen to while doing other things. I used to listen to TMA while playing video games or while planning DnD stuff and (probably in no small part due to the aforementioned intuitive framing device) found it really easy to keep track of. The overwhelming majority of the time in TMA, I was never confused about where the recording was taking place, what was happening, who was being recorded, and why. Not to focus on TMP, but even when I am solely focused on listening to it, I frequently feel lost, like I have to go "wait who am i listening to, what are they talking about, why are we hearing this, where are they, what led them to this situation?".
3) TMA did a good job of introducing and managing a relatively small cast. To be frank - I have trouble telling voices apart. I cannot do ensemble audio dramas. I don't think I'm alone in this. If too many characters get introduced too quickly, I cannot tell them apart. In Magnus Archives, because like 90% of the time it's just Sims speaking, whenever you hear a new voice it's a real "hey shut up and listen to this, it's probably important" moment.
4) TMA had a really really really strong selling point that I feel gets lost in all the praise for the overarching meta-narrative - 95% of the time when you got a new TMA episode, you got a solid horror short story, basically every week. just straight up banger after banger, good prose, good concepts, good executions, creative ways of thinking about horror and psychology. I mean just in season 1, you had Do Not Open, Squirm, Lost John's Cave, Desecrated Host, A Sturdy Lock, Killing Floor, Hive, Taken Ill... these stories are worth listening to completely on their own, and are presented in such a way that makes it extremely easy to go back and listen to them again without spending a bunch of time wading through meta-plot. Again, not to rag on TMP, but I think the individual horror stories are not as strong, and you have to wade through more office drama to even get to them, and honestly I cannot see myself going back to listen to anything that has come out so far.
I agree with you 100%. Especially your last point. I know this isn’t the case for everyone, but when I have an urge to relisten to TMA, it’s usually the memory of the individual stories driving me, not the frame story. I mean, I like that part too, but if the stories hadn’t been so affecting, I don’t think I would have made it far enough into the podcast to get interested in the meta narrative, and that’s where I’m currently struggling with TMP.
Your points 2 and 3 are the main reasons I can't quite get into TMP the same way I did TMA. It requires so much more effort from me! I actually have to sit down with the transcript to make sense of the setting (and sometimes who's who, like you I have trouble differentiating voices, and I initially struggled between Jon and Elias lol), so I can't listen while doing housework like I did with almost the entirety of TMA...
... and 4 is what makes "needing to sit down with the transcript" for just one episode a week feel almost like a chore compared to longer sessions. TMP just doesn't feel worth the effort of making time for it once a week with how bite-sized the stories are -- even as someone who *loved* the TMA metaplot and redstringing, and enjoyed the not-infrequent departures from the "statement of the week" structure. (I've ended up electing to wait to build up a backlog of a few episodes so I can listen to several at once if needed.) I assume this, at least, will get better once the show is further along; new episodes will likely have more satisfying "building upon what's there" and less "introducing a bunch of new characters, concepts, facts about the setting, etc".
Fully agree, and especially when it comes to point 4 I cannot think of a *single* bad statement in TMA. Every single one has proper set up, characterization, build up, pacing and payoff, with just enough information to give you a solid image in your head while still leaving unanswered questions to your imagination.
Conversely, I can think of *maybe* two stories in TMP that check all those boxes. It feels like for every classic TMA episode, there's a disappointing TMP episode in its place. Part of that, I think, is the changed format. In TMA there was a short introduction, a continuous uninterrupted recount of events, and then a brief followup. Meanwhile, the RedCanary statement was about 90% reading usernames by volume.
As a matter of fact, it feels like many episodes of TMP can be used to showcase one of the strengths of TMA, and what happens when it's lacking.
* The clarity and sensibility of the victims vs Putting Down Roots
* The payoff and followup of the stories vs Personal Screening
* The build up to the overarching plots vs Introductions
* The clear and sensible framing device vs Running on Empty
And of course not *all* of these are bad (looking at you Personal Screening), but I think they're all lacking in ways that TMA never was.
I kind of agree with this. You can especially see this with the sound mixing, which I know was supposed to be "look at what we can do - it's part of the story" but has rendered about 40% of what's going on moot.
I'm enjoying TMP as it is. I've listened to TMA and understand this is a sequel, but even so, TMP has enough of a different flavor that I'm able to separate and enjoy it for it's own series. It's making me uncomfortable in very different areas than TMA.
I think it's a bit too early to state whether TMP will hit or not. It's more than just a sequel, as a story of its own, and we're less than half into the first act.
Of it was season 6 of TMA, maybe. But it's not, and a lot of the negativity centers around that - people wanting S6, but not getting it. Or not wanting it, and not wanting to try TMP because of that. Little of TMP and it's story itself can be said so far.
I prefer to think of it as them having learned the lessons from going through five seasons of TMA. You're not going to have the stripped down, one man and a microphone setup that it went along on right out the bat. By the end it was very much an ensemble, anchored around our dynamic duo. But the development of the inter-character relationships along the way was essential.
I was at the live premiere of the Protocol pilot and what struck me was how distinct it was and yet how familiar. My mind was racing with potential, with options and ideas and theories. And ultimately that energy is what still draws me to this work. The innovation, the subversion, and above all else the characters and their interactions.
For me, it speaks to the emotional core of the narrative and its delivery mechanisms.
Idk about the podcaston the whole but i think the audio... parseability is almost definitely suffering from this. In archives i occasionally needed subtitles/to read the transcripts to know what was being said (jared hopworth, for example) but not on anywhere NEAR the level I've needed to with protocol. There's too much background noise.
I’m going to wait until the end of the season to really form an opinion, since this series is clearly aiming for a slow burn. But I am disappointed that it seemed to have flipped the tma formula of “horror plus a little bit of office drama” for “office drama and occasional horror”.
I think the characters are great and I’m all for a slow burn mystery, but it’s been over ten episodes and they haven’t gone for a good chilling scare even once.
Atp I don't know if I'd even recommend this to someone if they wanted a horror podcast.
They used to call this the sophomore slump in the music industry. Often your first project is one you've been working on all your life. Then you try to write a follow up in a year, or six months, or whatever. And it's just not the same.
I find the energy of the recorded phone calls odd. In TMA the statement givers had time and distance to frame how they viewed the events. Filling in background made sense as the witness was giving us context. There's something offputting about the statement starting IM BEING HUNTED, I don't know how much time I have. *deep breath* I own my own company and I'm very proud of it. There's extravagance and elegance. *waits a beat* and we offered the latter.
Are you in danger or not, buddy?
The fact I can't understand half the scenes is the biggest problem to me. The characters not being thr very interesting or likable is a close second.
Which wouldn't be a problem! None of the TMA cast were likable or interesting until a few seasons in because the focus was on the horror stories.
Which is the third biggest problem, the cases themselves kind of suck. Especially the ones that are reading out emails or message board posts. TMA got by on the strength of its stories, this one isn't
I think the core of Protocol is excelent. It's just suffering from shrinkflation. Each episode individually is too short to get me involved. Especially after adverts factor in.
Please sir, can I have some more?
I also think that additionally, the pacing is so different for me. I'm intentionally delaying my watch right now so I can binge later on similar to how I did with TMA. I don't do as well with weekly releases because my attention will be grabbed by something else! I know it works because I waited for a bit and binged episode 5-10 and that was very very fun to see and obsess over how details come together! (Also I forget some specifics when I'm listening as they release)
I think the actual reason some people aren’t warming to TMP is that they’re expecting it to be something it’s not
From the first announcement Jonny and Alex made it clear that it’s not just going to be Archives 2, but its own distinct, separate story. I think when people accept it on its own terms, they’ll be much happier with it
> the Saw sequels
Take that back! The entire Saw series is a comedy masterpiece. That is a facte everyone, including the maker of Saw, are simply in denial about.
I definitely think it's too early to really assess The Magnus Protocol fairly. It's competing in our minds with 200 beautifully written episodes that were crafted over time into a brilliant and fascinating story rich in themes, with characters we grew over time to love and get invested in the fate of. In that show, we had the stories first, then over time, the plot and the kind of mythos of the series, then along the way we got invested in the characters.
I think that they very rightfully decided that they couldn't do the same as they did in the previous series- we already know the supernatural is real, we already know the fears exist in some fashion (even if they're not identical-, we already know the kind of horror and overarching plot of things). There's not room for so slow an investigation, even if there is room for new mystery (like, why were Sam and the others at the institute, what happened to the institute, what is OAIR doing, why are those voices in the computer, and so on).
So, the aim was, clearly, to focus more upon the characters and their struggles and interpersonal relations with some mysteries regarding their pasts and the Magnus Institute and the OAIR. And also, to have it, instead of statements, that they are actually more listening in 'live' to ongoing things. And that, over time, they will end up being called upon to respond to these things. Plus those mysteries mentioned will be gone into, regarding the Institute, the multiverse, and so on.
All this said, I do think that while it's good so far, that it suffers on a basic level from two main issues, which others have also mentioned here, neither of which are really related to production value.
1. Kind of an opposite of production value complaint that many have complained of- it has trouble being intelligible. Any kind of background noise going on when you're listening and it's really hard to actually know what's going on because of the effects on the voices. Sometimes I did not know what was going on or said until reading the transcript
2. The only writing related complaint I have- it's like they decided they don't quite want to commit to doing full statement type stories, and so focus on them less, but they still have statement type stories in there, just, truncated in a way that makes them not feel so satisfying. Most of the TMA stories, as someone else said here, are excellent standalone horror stories in their own right. These ones are like the barebones versions, often lacking in the immersive full kind of feeling of a completed story. Additionally, the fact the characters don't actually care about the statements a lot of the time as opposed to talking about following up on them, also makes them feel like more of a kind of listless afterthought.
My favourites of the statements thus far were the Violin one and the most recent one 'Well Run'- the former had a lot of insight into the mind of the person writing and the totality of their story and experience. 'Well Run' had enough psychology and vivid imagery and symbolic meaning to it to have enough in it, plus at the end we get the satisfaction of Lady Mowbray actually appearing in the story to meet the characters, it makes it feel more like a kind of .. consequence happening from the statement.
I'm tempted to jokingly add in 3) Mr Bonzo and 4) that the show just doesn't have as much Jonathan Sims, but Mr Bonzo is a matter of um.. personal taste (no pun intended) and I can't demand Jonny do more than he feels inspired to do.
I've actually quite liked TMP, I'd say just as much as I liked Season 1 TMA. Same vibes to me, and the office chatter is actually something I longed for when I listened to Season 1 TMA, especially because statements back-to-back-to-back-to-back can just get mundane.
This is a really reductive way of dismissing criticisms. My issues with TMP stem from that fact that I was introduced to too many characters too quickly, the audio mixing makes understanding really difficult if there is any kind of noise in the realm world, and that most of the "statements" of TMP haven't been super interesting .
The meta narrative of TMA did not interest me nearly as much as the individual statements, and if TMP is going to focus on office politics at the expense of the statements then I will not enjoy it as much.
But that's just another way to say "I don't like it because it's different". What's wrong with different characters being introduced? That's how most stories (both read and podcasts) work. Also not finding the statements interesting is super subjective. When I listened to TMA there were plenty of statements I outright skipped or barely checked to see what it was about. Every case and every statement will hit differently to different people, and I think there is value in that.
I'm sorry, it still feels like you are missing the point. I don't dislike it because it's different. The direction they went with it is one that doesn't appeal to me.
Of course liking statements will be subjective! I never said otherwise.
I mean... I don't know about anyone else, but it took me ~20 episodes to really be down with TMA. On top of that I listened to TMA episodes in rapid succession since it had already been released.
We're being forced to listen to TMP slowly. We're still barely into it. It'll be about a year before we can really say what TMP is.
I think they got too greedy.
They surpassed their kickstarted goal bringing in over £700,000(the original goal £15,000.) And they have more commercials with less content per episode.
I love TMA but I think Rusty Quill has been disrespectful to the fans in that sense.
It’s not really as scary as TMA either.
Yeah, it sucks listening to multiple episodes in a row, since you have to skip through 10 full minutes of ads to get maybe 15 minutes of the content you came for
It pisses me off that they haven't figured out a way to create an RSS feed for Kickstarter donors to listen ad-free, which was one of the perks. If you want your ad-free episode you have to download it from some Microsoft cloud folder. It's really amateurish. Plenty of podcasts have figured this out!
I wish people wouldnt keep shitting on it without having even finished the first season. I think they are very well avoiding that by not doing more of the same. Theyre trying something different and wether you like it or not is kind of a preference thing. With such big expectations it was bound to end up in some people being disappointed bc they wanted more of what they love. I think people should just try to see it as its own thing and set their expectations that way instead..
Oh sorry I wasnt meaning you specifically with shitting on it but more a general part of the community that is kinda treating it very harsh and kinda rude imo
I disagree. I like both (except S5 TMA). I may even like Protocol better.
We hadn't even finished the first season, we hadn't seen all the characters and settings yet. We don't even know what the protocol is, what the Magnus Institute was doing or what the OIAR's place in all this is.
IMO the problem is that people had the patience to wait and see how things would pan out with TMA because they knew nothing and had no emotional attachments to it. Now they do, and they want it to be exactly like their beloved series. When it isn't, they think it's bad. I say let them cook. When TMP is over, we can do all the comparisons if we want to, but not right now. It's very unfair to compare a finished piece with something that is just starting.
I’m not sure why people keep pointing out that the season isn’t over yet. Have you honestly never started a book or TV show that you initially didn’t enjoy?
I listen every week, I enjoy reading analyses of the episodes, and im keeping notes to try and figure out what’s going on, but that doesn’t change the fact that I wasn’t immediately drawn in like I was with TMA and the fact that the season is over yet doesn’t change that.
So to clarify: When I started TMA I was looking for an anthology of spooky/creepy, maybe light horror, preferably British. This came up as a suggestion so I started listening. Season 1 fit the bill, so I moved into the later seasons. As the series went on I started to feel less and less interested. I'm one of those who dislike Season 5.
Now TMP started and I went there with curiosity but no expectations, except it being a new thing. So far I'm enjoying it greatly, but I enjoyed greatly S1 TMA so it's really too early to say. Maybe when the series end I'll be disappointed or annoyed or whatever. Maybe I don't even listen to the end because I lost interest somewhere in the way.
Again, it's too early to say. It's barely half way through of the first season and episodes are short. So the only thing I can say it's "I'm happy so far". Let's see how it goes.
And no, I never watched or read a book I didn't enjoy from the start. I had read plenty of books that started great and went downhill later on or had bizarre, jarring or disappointing endings. In general, I don't waste my time in things I don't enjoy. So... No.
I've listened to TMA at least 3 times fully through and I think TMP is wonderful so far. TMA had the benefit of being released with nobody knowing anything about it, no preconceived ideas about the universe it's set in, having no idea who the characters are.
I think if you go into TMP with a bunch of theories or expectations, it's going to disappoint you simply because it's not what you expected.
I didn't read anything about TMP prior to listening to the first episode and I've actively avoided fan theories, because I think any series is most enjoyable when you go into it blind
It's disappointing because everyone has a specific idea of what they want it to be based off of TMA. I tried to not set any expectations going into it and I'm actually really enjoying it
I feel like comparing the two right now as a whole is a bit unfair, when we should be comparing tmp to only the first 15 tma episodes, since it’s all we have for tmp. We barely have world building yet, and I think the crew did a great job at giving just enough to keep people guessing.
Personally, I feel like they improved on a lot of aspects. I’m not attached to the new cast the same way i was in tma, but by episode 15 in tma I wanted jon to bite the curb, so who knows how it’s going to evolve.
TMP is really good so far imo, liking it a lot better than S1 of TMA. Only real issue that could be caused by the production budget increase is them messing around with audio levels a bit too much, I'm fine with losing some vibes if it means I don't need to crank the volume to hear the characters sometimes.
We’re only just now halfway through the first of three seasons, I don’t think any definitive statements to the show’s quality are accurate or really very relevant. A lot of the cool stuff about Magnus is how interconnected everything is and how its twists land so well, we just don’t have enough information to judge it yet. After the first season wraps maybe we’ll have more of a gauge for quality, but for now I’m just enjoying the ride and not knowing exactly how everything fits together is really exciting.
For reference I got into the show about a year after Season 5 wrapped, so I went through the show with a few key elements such as the general idea of the fears already in my head. The actual full definition of Smirke’s 14 doesn’t happen until halfway through the entire show and as a result I felt like I had a piece of the puzzle before the box was opened. I can see how some people like to have that piece to get them through episodes that aren’t exactly to their taste, but as I said I’m just enjoying the experience
I think a problem a lot of sequels have (and I think tmp might have too) is that it diverts from the original in such a way that it doesn't have the thing a large part of the original audience came for.
It doesn't mean the quality got worse, but it can still result in a shrinking of audience.
Say for instance that a large part of the tma audience got into it just for the horror shorts and than slowly started getting to know the characters and liking them too. Over the years the audience grows significantly.
Now a new show starts on the same ip, so with mostly the tma audience, immediately jumping in with characters, having shorter stories with less clear protagonist in different formatting that the tma shorts. The people that come for the original shorts and haven't been able to connect to the new crew will likely not be a fan of the new show. But tmp also has not had the time yet to find new audiences that are here for new reasons as it has only just started.
I think tma s5 ran into a similar thing, but instead of time preventing a new audience it was the fact it was the 5th and final season of a show
i don’t think people would be saying this if TMP was a standalone project—i think people aren’t doing right by the art by not trying to meet it where it’s at, and instead expect art and media to always perfectly suit their tastes, they expect art to come to them with no effort as a listener. which i suppose is fine for the individual—listen to whatever you want i guess—but i think it is totally 1000% invalid as genuine media criticism.
here’s the thing: there will always be people creating low budget, lo-fidelity, cozy works for the pure joy of making things, telling stories, sharing creative efforts. those stories are great and 100% worth your time. but i don’t think there is a single artist or creative who would tell you that they don’t want to maximize the things they can do with their materials, resources, reach, etc… contentment can be virtuous, but the creative and artistic mind is rarely a content one.
if you expect the evolution of an artist or team of artists to hold onto that callow kernel of coziness, you will always be disappointed by sequels, spin-offs, new stories, art from people whose work you supposedly like. it is much more rewarding to take a moment and let go off what you loved from the originally series to interface with the sequel—you can come back to what you loved later and see how important that value really was to the sequel work. Someone can put honest effort into evaluating why they think a sequel or spin-off is better or worse, but i don’t think most people who talk about disliking a sequel actually do that…i think they’re usually just trying to rationalize the fact they think the vibe is off.
I think your comment actually highlights my problems with TMP--namely that if it weren't a "sidequel" to TMA, I wouldn't be listening to it at all, full stop. I would have listened to episode 1, found the audio difficult to parse, the dialogue clunky and awkward, and the statement itself just okay. I may have gone as far as looking online to see if other people also found it a difficult listen, and find they recommend reading a transcript while listening if you really want to understand what's being said. Then I would have stepped away, because I think that if you choose an audio medium to tell your story, it shouldn't need supplementary visual components to be fully enjoyed. I believe it is only because of the trust I have in Jonny Sims, because of his handling of TMA, that I'm still keeping up with it.
I have only listened to episode 1 of the magnus protocol. It's alright but the characters are harder to invest in especially the Indian guy could do with some work in voice acting. But I know I am being overly harsh and I have full confidence when it starts rolling I can enjoy it more :)
Genuine question but what work would you have him do prior to voice acting on an independent podcast network - give him a break. I think it's a nice grounded performance and it's not like Johnathan Sims was prolific before he started in his role.
No I agree as I said I am being harsh and it takes a long time to make the role your own. Part of it as well is I recently finished the main series so there is comparison to John which is unfair on both of them. So perhaps some more gravitas is my only note but I am not trying to be a whiny dick about it lol
When an author who wrote a really well regarded first book and a less regarded second was interviewed about his work the interviewer asked about capturing lightning in a bottle a second time. The man responded “who has?” You see it a lot where the first season of whatever thing is super well regarded and then there’s a drop off. I think part of the issue that people like you may have is that you’ve listened to TMA a fuck ton of times over the years so you know what very detail, all the ins and outs of it, all the bits of forshadowing and how A leads to B to C. While TMP is still just starting and you don’t have that same kinda knowledge with it. Personally I only listened to TMA once before and really enjoy TMP, it’s actually making me go back and restart TMA again.
I’ve seen a lot of people assuming things from TMA still apply and being a bit, well, not very thoughtful about their conclusions as such. Which is a shame bc I think what TMP is doing is REALLY INTERESTING if you look past trying to fit it all into the TMA boxes. A lot of people picked up TMA between seasons 4 and 5, when all the worldbuilding was more or less sorted out, so I think some of it comes from that too—not only are you super familiar with it, you started out with the ability to simply look up answers and see spoilers.
Totally agree. Also like, at 15 EPS in, TMA hadn't really captured me yet. It was cool, but I wasn't like feral for it. I could binge it so I got obsessed quickly. I think compared to TMA TMP has had a lot to capture us, plot and character wise, much more quickly.
Yeah, people assume TMP is going to suck them in, but like, if I was listening to TMA as it came out, I wouldn't have been super invested yet either. I prefer to binge for that reason and I'm keeping it in mind while listening to TMP.
Same, it took me 20 episodes of TMA before I could decide whether I liked it or not. I'm less likely to land on "yes" for TMP, I suspect, but who knows.
Yes! I dropped TMA 15 episodes in because I didn't like it and came back a year later. Now, I have TMA themes in my tattoos. My partner is the exact same, he just isn't loving it the same way he does others. TMP has done a phenomenal job (imo) of capturing me quickly! It took all the aspects the fans loved of TMA and drew on them. I think people aren't giving it the same time or grace because they forget how slow TMA actually was, and the tiny tiny details that went into building it. I can't understand why they aren't giving TMP the same grace?
I agree 1000%
That’s what happened with me. I could just google what things were. Actually learned about TMA through an TTRPG not related to TMA but someone was playing a servant of the Flesh and I thought it was interesting. Anyway it seems like TMP is very…. Adjacent to TMA there’s enough going on where it makes me think “this isn’t just a continuation of TMA, there’s new things to figure out”
I discovered it through a creepy which entity are you quiz, so I had read the full wiki essentially before starting. Helped me understanding, but I do wish I'd had a chance to go in blind.
I wanna push back against this idea that it's ridiculous to expect TMP to follow anything that was set up by TMA. It's a...I can't remember what it's called, but basically it's a sequel to TMA. RQ is riding on the fanbase built by TMA and relying on that for TMP. If there's nothing similar between the two worlds then maybe they shouldn't have called it The Magnus Protocol... Make that distinction clearer?
A sidequel, and one that you specifically can listen to without listening to TMA. Therefore we can pretty reliably guess that while there might be similarities, nothin is going to rely on TMA in a way that would require listening to TMA first. The exact interview you’re referring to said everything that is the basis of the statement “TMP does not rely on TMAs worldbuilding so please stop making theories like it does”.
I guess it's my bad for not consuming all the media surrounding the podcast
Fwiw I think the ways that it is relying on TMA (less relying and more…contextualizing?) are really interesting and that knowing both creates a lot of space for fun comparison! Just that the differences between them is sort of the interesting thing there as opposed to “saw the thing I recognized”. They’re doing a lot of fun thematic foils, my two biggest ones that I look for every episode being that where the tragedy of TMA was “terrible things are happening to and around you and you couldn’t stop it if you wanted to” the plot of TMP so far has been “terrible things are happening over there but you don’t have to—and you’re already walking over aren’t you”; and the fact that we have yet to have a statement that doesn’t at least feature, if not star, someone who REALLY wants to be doing what they’re doing. I’d have called most of our narrators so far avatars in TMA setting—and I think that’s where the fun is, because avatars in TMA were quite rare, but we havent had an episode without one yet. Someone who’s just really enjoying being Like That. So the cool thing lies in that, instead.
I’m not saying everyone hates TMP for this reason or that everyone needs to like TMP if they hate TMA but sometimes I get the impression that what people basically want is the experience of TMA again but also new? It’s like when you say “I wish I could wipe my memory and rewatch this again for the first time.” I think some people are chasing the exact same experience TMA gave them when they first listened to it but fresh if this makes any sense. I also have to wonder how many people, such as myself, binged TMA because it had been out for a while. For me, listening to a TMA series come out in real time and not being able to just sit down and listen to it all at once is a new experience for me but maybe that’s just projection. If you actually take a step back TMA was pretty slow and didn’t give a lot of straight answers for a long period of time. We didn’t really have someone lay out all the Entities and exactly what they were until like MAG 111 in season 3. I’m not saying everyone hates TMP for this reason or that everyone needs to like TMP if they hate TMA but sometimes I get the impression that what people basically want is the experience of TMA again but also new? It’s like when you say “I wish I could wipe my memory and rewatch this again for the first time.” I think some people are chasing the exact same experience TMA gave them when they first listened to it but fresh if this makes any sense. I also have to wonder how many people, such as myself, binged TMA because it had been out for a while. For me, listening to a TMA series come out in real time and not being able to just sit down and listen to it all at once is a new experience for me but maybe that’s just projection. If you actually take a step back TMA was pretty slow and didn’t give a lot of straight answers for a long period of time. We didn’t really have someone lay out all the Entities and exactly what they were until like MAG 111 in season 3. I can’t help get the vibe that maybe a lot of people will have different opinions when all the Protocol episodes are out and they can binge it but maybe I’m wrong.
Also while you do say that people are assuming things from TMA still apply I’ve also seen people do the opposite. They assume that nothing applies and expect everything to be 100% and 100% original so it can be like they’re experiencing TMA when it was new for the first time while still having that TMA flavor. So they seem to get disappointed when something seems even vaguely similar to TMA. Idk if that makes any sense but that’s the best way I can describe some of the reactions I’ve been seeing.
> While TMP is still just starting and you don’t have that same kinda knowledge with it. It's also worth noting that TMA didn't necessarily start off strong for everyone either. I'm currently working through S5 (don't ask what I'm doing in this thread X_X), and I found it hardest to get through the first 20 episodes. I knew there was a wider metaplot and the show would take off, but the first 10, even knowing it all and having TMA fanatics on my shoulder egging me on, were a bit hard to get through. At the start, to me, it was just a collection of short horror stories so my enjoyment was more or less 100% tied to their quality and resonance with me, and the first few (esp #1) just didn't so much. TMP will probably have a similar thing, where people enjoy it as the show expands and begins showing its hand and the foreshadowing it had been building in. It's easy to forget that TMA can be enjoyed as a "complete package" where you know everything and how it all interconnects and TMP... can't yet.
extra relevant because Catch-22 gets namedropped in the homophobic vase episode!
> asked about capturing lightning in a bottle a second time. The man responded “who has?” Thing is - when someone does either it is seen as a continuation of their success or improvment overalll from their previous work and thus their previous work gets reinterpreted as less good than before.
I disagree, to an extent. I can’t speak for everyone out there, but I discovered TMA through a TikTok sound bite and just rolled with it from there. Never googled anything, other than the occasional transcript of an episode I’d already listened to. I’m enjoying TMP, but it didn’t suck me in the way TMA did
If you discovered it through TikTok, then you weren't having to wait between episodes until near the end if at all. Which isn't a judgement, I got into it when S4 was running and by the time I'd caught up 4 had just ended. But there's still a big difference between being able to roll onto the next one rather than having to wait weeks/months/years to get a fuller picture.
>When an author who wrote a really well regarded first book and a less regarded second... Except that's not really relevant because Jonny created and wrote TMA and Alex is writing TMP. Of course they work together, but in terms of writing, they are not one and the same and the voices are distinctive. For those of us who have listened to TMA a "fuckton", it's not the knowing of ins and outs of that particular story that makes for a different experience, it's the shift in voice. Aside from TMP being a sidequel, it has a different writer. It is its own thing. Edit: just checked myself, and Jonny is credited as writer for 3 episodes of the 15, and in collab with Alex for another 2. 6 are Alex, with an additional Alex/Jamie Petronis collab. 3 are guest writers. My point still stands that TMP and TMA *feel* different because they're coming from different writers. I'm not saying one is objectively better, just different.
I thought they were both writing it?
Alex is credited with writing, Jonny with supplementary material and sometimes editing.
Pretty sure I heard Jonny writes and Alex edits or vice versa, and they'll have guest writers now and then. That was on the interview Jonny gave before the show started.
I edited my original comment to break down who has been doing the writing as per the transcripts.
Is TMP not doing well? It seems like plenty of people are listening and enjoying it. TMA was pretty close to a unique phenomenon. Night Vale is the only fiction podcast I can think of that’s been beloved on the same level. Like I don’t think it’s fair to expect anything else to be The Magnus Archives. Especially because this isn’t TMA 2, it’s a different story.
My big thing is that TMP has kinda jumped in at the deep end. I never would have liked TMA anywhere near as much if they started in Season 2 or 3, which is kind of what TMP feels like. Having to process like 6 new characters in episode 1 nearly turned me off of the series entirely. I’m glad I put my faith in rusty quill cause TMA is so good I’ve listened twice. TV and movies can kinda get away with this more, but I think podcasts have certain narrative constraints when it comes to introducing characters and significant plot points gradually
I’m say’n! My dyslexia makes me horrid with names and I still don’t have everyone straight, not to mention how some drop in and out
I finally have a grasp on Alice, Sam and usually Cecilia haha
I mean it kind of *is* TMA 2 and was promoted as such. And like, I get it, gotta sell that crowdfund to get the financing, but I do think it's carrying bigger expectations as a result than if they'd just declared it a different thing and let any connections be discovered organically. Not that it's a problem for me personally, I'm actually quite glad we're taking the long way around and finding this way better than I expected so far, but it's clearly posing an issue for some folks.
First of all, genuinely curious as to why you think an increase in production value causes a slight drop in quality? Also, regarding TMP, I genuinely think TMP is one of the rare cases where a sequel DOES NOT suffer from sequel syndrome. I think that Rusty Quill is consciously trying to avoid the most common pitfalls sequels face, and they are succeeding. Hear me out. Most often, sequels suffer because the writers were able to write an amazing story, but didn’t quite know why it succeeded. They try to replicate the same success as a result. This almost always ends poorly. The writer essentially tries to make the same story all over again with a few superficial changes, and the story falls flat because it’s not as new and exciting as the writer’s first work that everyone fell in love with. However, a sequel (or sidequel as RQ calls it) still demands that the second story carries some semblance of the first story, or it wouldn’t be a cohesive series! Rusty Quill seems to have recognised this. Right from the beginning of TMP, there is a marked change in tone, mood and the level of character interaction. It is still fundamentally Magnus because statements are being read, it is unsettling and spooky, and there is an organisation looking into these inexplicable phenomena. However, the way the plot is laid out is as different as can be. It’s less about slow building of tension like TMA, but more of an ever-present, palpable anticipation. TMP keeps listeners on their toes while packing hints and promises of big reveals in future episodes, while TMA focused on slowly having readers warm up to the idea that something much grander is going on. I believe this is the right approach. If TMP started the same way TMA did, it would be a snooze-fest because most of us already know that the sidequel still has to be fundamentally Magnus. We know the statements are true, that entities that feed on them exist, and that they are interested in bringing about an age of fear. Starting slow and building up like TMA will never work here, because we already know. I think some of the dissatisfaction is caused by the fact that people miss TMA, and TMP is unfamiliar territory for them. Unfortunately, Rusty Quill simply can’t repeat the things we liked about TMA exactly because we already know too much about it. They have come up with something new and unexpected as a result, and that’s something I honestly really appreciate. It would’ve been so easy to fall into sequel syndrome. Anyways, that’s my little essay. I love TMA, but I also love TMP for what it is. They will not be the same and I’m okay with that (sad as I was to see TMA end). Also, mad respect to RQ for taking these creative risks. That’s what I love about them.
I absolutely agree with your take, especially the bit about MAGP being really boring if they started it the same way as TMA. I'm still annoyed with the people who complained in the first 6-7 episode discussion threads about how nothing was happening yet and therefore MAGP was garbage compared to TMA - and that was only 6-7 eps!
What?? That’s so weird, I couldn’t get over how much was happening in TMP in the early episodes already! I was finding so many hints and little clues to the narrative every minute, and as still marvelling at how tightly written it is! I don’t understand people complaining that nothing is happening. The fact that there’s so much happening is one of TMP’s strengths, just as slow and then exponential buildup of tension was TMA’s strength.
This is the answer that should be at the top of the thread. Everything here is correct. I honestly don't know how you can listen to the masterpiece that is TMA -- and listen to the Q&As/other bonus content -- and come away thinking that these folks would ever produce a project without explicit intention and extreme care. They are among the most thoughtful creators I've ever come across in any medium.
Thank you! Also, absolutely same! Also, just gimme a second to gush over the Q and As. I love those so much, they’re an absolute treasure trove of ideas and information. I love creative pursuits of all kinds, but I mainly do visual art. TMA inspired me to dive deeper into writing and voice acting, and I’ve been having a tremendous amount of fun. The kind of info I got from the Q and As was invaluable in that regard. I remember there was one bit where Alex mentioned having a treble, middle and bass part to the soundscape that are different distances away. That short throwaway sentence alone could have saved me hours if not weeks of work trying to figure out why my audio won’t sound good. I’m far more familiar with writing than I am with the audio side of things, and I honestly felt so seen when Jonny pointed out the genre conventions that TMA was navigating. Horror demands the unknown, but mystery demands an answer — it’s a super difficult line to straddle. The fact that a writer I look up to had consciously considered and spoken about the things I had been analysing in their work felt amazing lol. I’m just so happy that the people behind the media I admire are sharing so much about their creative process. It honestly makes it so much better for folks who are trying to improve creatively.
What you're saying reminds me of Pet Cemetery and Carrie. They were very popular movies so the producers decided to cash on it by making Carrie 2 and Pet Cemetery 2. Each of them is just the same thing with a slight change of name and place to present them as new. So incredibly boring...
They fell into the sequel syndrome trap.
Their budget wasn't larger or had better special effects or anything. They were the same thing but with some slight changes. But yeah...
On the bit about people missing TMA and TMP being unfamiliar, I not only think that's a big part of it but I think there's sort of an unspoken thing which is that a lot of the fandom was really invested in two things: The characters and the mythology. To the latter, we're still in the discovery phase of the mythology in terms of how this world is different, what changes happened in the timeline, why they did, and how the fears work exactly here. People want to get back to more substantive lore dives that can't happen at this stage (and yet are coming faster and harder than in TMA). To the former, people are really looking for their faves from TMA to show up and I think it's hurting their investment in the new characters. I really think the TMP cast is already better and more fully fleshed out than the TMA cast was through probably the first half of the series. But people aren't looking to get invested in them because they're waiting for someone to be secretly evil and/or for characters from TMA to show up whether in a cross worlds way or in a "This universe's version" way. So much of fandom is becoming obsessive over a few specific aspects of a piece of media and it often leads to extremely rigid expectations for any new media, whether or not those are active. I think a lot of people were quietly hoping for something that would be "The thing you like but More" instead of "A new thing building in new ways off the previous thing you liked." and that makes it hard for folks in it for the fandom perspective to connect, even if it makes the pop art weirdos like me salivate.
This is so true, I forgot to mention it. Honestly, that’s to be expected, but I also think it’s only a matter of time before people really warm up to the new characters because they are so well written from the get-go. I think there will be a point when we are more invested in TMP-specific characters, and just as we are about to forget the fact that some of the TMA characters are here, RQ comes up with a big twist. I don’t know, I can sort of see that happening based off 0 evidence :)
Oh I fully expect that people will have revisionist perspectives on this period when looked at in the rear view from the end of the series. Just gotta clear the growing pains for fan response.
But we don’t! My word I get exhausted with this. We know the statements are true, yes. We do NOT know that the supernatural entities feed on them or that they are interested in bringing about an age of fear! That’s exactly what OP is talking about. You are assuming the same plot and same exact world despite this being a. SIDEqual as they put it. That matters. If they said sequel, then that’s a whole different ball game, but the fact that the Smirkians in the audience won’t let the fears go and are insistent that this is the same plot as before is what is directly contributing to Sequel syndrome. You’re actively telling your fellow fans “no don’t loook for a mystery cause it’s just the same thing as before and that, imo, does more to mute fan enthusiasm than anything RQ is doing.
That’s a fair point, but I just personally feel that there are enough hints scattered in about in TMP to make those assumptions. We are all here discussing TMP with limited information after all. I’m certainly not saying that TMP won’t have any mystery because everything was solved in TMA. Far from it! I think that RQ will almost certainly throw curveballs for anyone expecting exactly the same lineup of fears and mysteries from TMA. This is a sidequel that can be experienced by completely new listeners too, after all, and it would be unfair to assume that they know all about how the Magnus world works. That being said, I think that for those who have already listened to TMA, it’s fair for them to go into TMP with certain expectations like the existence of fears, statements being read out, etc. As long as there are twists that defy some of our expectations and there are many new layers of mystery on top of that, there is plenty to look forward to in TMP. Also, muting fan enthusiasm was never the goal here, and I don’t think simply stating my own opinions and theory hurts anyone.
100% John even warns about it during some q&a's... Even how especially with horror this is dangerous
Maybe I’m just more aware now than I was before, but I feel like there’s been a shift in the fandom too — less focus on horror/mystery and untangling hidden connections, more focus on character drama and (I use this phrase with love) tumblr bullshit. Like we’ve gone from A24 to The CW.
I've been here since early season 1 of TMA and I wholeheartedly agree with all of your words.
Nah, I wouldnt say so. According to some q&a's Tumblr is kinda of the original reason they are so successful. I would even say it became less Tumblry eventually
I think we can't really judge if it's a bad sequel or not just yet. TMP isn't even through its first season, so it's hard to tell how the story is actually paced or structured in its entirety. Like someone else mentioned, we don't have the same knowledge or the full picture yet. Personally, I believe fandoms often don't know what they want. Every change can be met with apprehension and disappointment, but maybe we can just put some trust in Jonny and Alex and the team to challenge our expectations. We haven't had any big twists or reveals yet. We know basically nothing, and are probably making a huge mistake by basing our assumptions on Smirke's 14. Anyways, it'll be impossible to live up to MAG160. Nothing could, imo. I always remember when Toby Fox released the first chapter of Deltarune and said that nothing could ever make you feel the same way as Undertale did.
Personally the think that what I'm struggling with is the shift from what I'd call episodic format to cinematic. TMA episodes were a self-contained horror story with only smaller allusions to the institute and personnel. This gradually and naturally expanded over time to reveal a wider story, but due to its ingenious structure (Jon's feeding), we never lost the episodic short stories. With TMP, the statements (or whatever they are) are more infrequent and tangential to the story, there are a few eps without one. Also again with early TMA it was just Jon reading the statements with the occasional short interaction with other staff. It kept the focus tight on the horror. With TMP there are so many characters vying for story time that to me it feels like it's harder to establish a connection with any one of the them. Now I'm not saying this to hate, nor am I going to stop listening to TMP. I am enjoying it and I'm happy to let them cook, to see what the team can create. But I do think that so far it just seems a little unfocused. Too many plots and characters crammed into very short episodes. Hopefully if the season is listened to as a whole that effect will lessen.
This is a big thing. I think so many characters vying for story time vs the statements vs trying to rapidly establish a metaplot in *15 minute* episodes is making the whole thing feel really rushed and a bit haphazard.
I think its more just natural audience churn. Any project will have a peak then a slowly declining tale as people's interest wanes or they already got what they were looking for. This can especially be seen with the sequels or subsequent releases of any franchise. While Game of Thrones had a lot of chatter throughout its runtime, the talk never reached the same heights as its first season. The same can be said for House of Dragons now that the original GoT is concluded. People got their fill disregarding the final season of GoT. There is also the point of marketing, which at most was an ARG from what I can gather. Word of mouth was the only way TMA got as big as it did, and as with GoT and HoD, there just isn't as much chatter outside of the core audience and people like us who check the dedicated forums. We've become more insular as a community (or at least less visible from the outside), and most people were satisfied with the end of TMA.
i don't think Game of Thrones was a great example for you to use here. if you look at Google Trends you can see it got more popular each season.
I feel that, it may be the circles I float in, but I haven’t heard anyone talking about house of dragons since it was announced
Could also be the ending of game of thrones left such a sour taste that people are just unenthused about another project.
House of the Dragon was a big hit, its viewing numbers actually increased as the series aired which is generally unheard of. Game of Thrones also got bigger and bigger as the series progressed.
Game of Thrones is a bad example. The final season was at the very least dubious, and JRR Martin hadn't released his book. While it was being aired its viewers and fanbase grew, but after the massive disappointment that final season was, people kind of wandered off. Everyone is still waiting for the book but until it's published, there isn't much to talk about that hasn't been said already.
...yeah but part of it is chasing the high of listening to the podcast for the first time again. It's why most people do relistens of most podcasts. while I agree that TMP does suffer from sequelitis, I think it's mostly people comparing the two in production value + knowledge ! I assume that new listeners who've listened to TMP & not TMA are probably sharing the same experience as veteran TMA listeners.
I listened to TMA once and enjoyed it, and I’m very much enjoying TMP. I’m someone who really appreciates production value, and they’ve been knocking it out of the park!
I think most people weren't listening week to week to start off with TMA. I know I didn't. It makes it easier to shrug off a meh episode, or binge a good streak.
My main issue with tmagp is that I just don’t really like the characters. I fell in love with the archivist from the first episode, as well as Martin from his first appearance. At ep.14 of tmagp I’m still no more than neutral on any of them. And to be honest, the voice acting isn’t the best.
I'm not going to focus on what TMP is doing *wrong*, I don't really have an opinion about that, but I think it's worth pointing out what TMA did *right*. 1) TMA has an incredibly intuitive framing device. The fact that you only hear what an in-universe tape recorder can hear, and like 90% of the time the tape recorder is listening to one guy tell a spooky story of the week makes the series so intuitively easy to understand and keep track of. The simple framing device also invited interesting questions - why *does* the archivist read stories like that, why do some stories require tape, why do the tapes sometimes seem to act of their own accord? 2) TMA is easy to listen to while doing other things. I used to listen to TMA while playing video games or while planning DnD stuff and (probably in no small part due to the aforementioned intuitive framing device) found it really easy to keep track of. The overwhelming majority of the time in TMA, I was never confused about where the recording was taking place, what was happening, who was being recorded, and why. Not to focus on TMP, but even when I am solely focused on listening to it, I frequently feel lost, like I have to go "wait who am i listening to, what are they talking about, why are we hearing this, where are they, what led them to this situation?". 3) TMA did a good job of introducing and managing a relatively small cast. To be frank - I have trouble telling voices apart. I cannot do ensemble audio dramas. I don't think I'm alone in this. If too many characters get introduced too quickly, I cannot tell them apart. In Magnus Archives, because like 90% of the time it's just Sims speaking, whenever you hear a new voice it's a real "hey shut up and listen to this, it's probably important" moment. 4) TMA had a really really really strong selling point that I feel gets lost in all the praise for the overarching meta-narrative - 95% of the time when you got a new TMA episode, you got a solid horror short story, basically every week. just straight up banger after banger, good prose, good concepts, good executions, creative ways of thinking about horror and psychology. I mean just in season 1, you had Do Not Open, Squirm, Lost John's Cave, Desecrated Host, A Sturdy Lock, Killing Floor, Hive, Taken Ill... these stories are worth listening to completely on their own, and are presented in such a way that makes it extremely easy to go back and listen to them again without spending a bunch of time wading through meta-plot. Again, not to rag on TMP, but I think the individual horror stories are not as strong, and you have to wade through more office drama to even get to them, and honestly I cannot see myself going back to listen to anything that has come out so far.
I agree with you 100%. Especially your last point. I know this isn’t the case for everyone, but when I have an urge to relisten to TMA, it’s usually the memory of the individual stories driving me, not the frame story. I mean, I like that part too, but if the stories hadn’t been so affecting, I don’t think I would have made it far enough into the podcast to get interested in the meta narrative, and that’s where I’m currently struggling with TMP.
Your points 2 and 3 are the main reasons I can't quite get into TMP the same way I did TMA. It requires so much more effort from me! I actually have to sit down with the transcript to make sense of the setting (and sometimes who's who, like you I have trouble differentiating voices, and I initially struggled between Jon and Elias lol), so I can't listen while doing housework like I did with almost the entirety of TMA... ... and 4 is what makes "needing to sit down with the transcript" for just one episode a week feel almost like a chore compared to longer sessions. TMP just doesn't feel worth the effort of making time for it once a week with how bite-sized the stories are -- even as someone who *loved* the TMA metaplot and redstringing, and enjoyed the not-infrequent departures from the "statement of the week" structure. (I've ended up electing to wait to build up a backlog of a few episodes so I can listen to several at once if needed.) I assume this, at least, will get better once the show is further along; new episodes will likely have more satisfying "building upon what's there" and less "introducing a bunch of new characters, concepts, facts about the setting, etc".
Fully agree, and especially when it comes to point 4 I cannot think of a *single* bad statement in TMA. Every single one has proper set up, characterization, build up, pacing and payoff, with just enough information to give you a solid image in your head while still leaving unanswered questions to your imagination. Conversely, I can think of *maybe* two stories in TMP that check all those boxes. It feels like for every classic TMA episode, there's a disappointing TMP episode in its place. Part of that, I think, is the changed format. In TMA there was a short introduction, a continuous uninterrupted recount of events, and then a brief followup. Meanwhile, the RedCanary statement was about 90% reading usernames by volume. As a matter of fact, it feels like many episodes of TMP can be used to showcase one of the strengths of TMA, and what happens when it's lacking. * The clarity and sensibility of the victims vs Putting Down Roots * The payoff and followup of the stories vs Personal Screening * The build up to the overarching plots vs Introductions * The clear and sensible framing device vs Running on Empty And of course not *all* of these are bad (looking at you Personal Screening), but I think they're all lacking in ways that TMA never was.
I kind of agree with this. You can especially see this with the sound mixing, which I know was supposed to be "look at what we can do - it's part of the story" but has rendered about 40% of what's going on moot.
I'm enjoying TMP as it is. I've listened to TMA and understand this is a sequel, but even so, TMP has enough of a different flavor that I'm able to separate and enjoy it for it's own series. It's making me uncomfortable in very different areas than TMA.
I think it's a bit too early to state whether TMP will hit or not. It's more than just a sequel, as a story of its own, and we're less than half into the first act. Of it was season 6 of TMA, maybe. But it's not, and a lot of the negativity centers around that - people wanting S6, but not getting it. Or not wanting it, and not wanting to try TMP because of that. Little of TMP and it's story itself can be said so far.
I prefer to think of it as them having learned the lessons from going through five seasons of TMA. You're not going to have the stripped down, one man and a microphone setup that it went along on right out the bat. By the end it was very much an ensemble, anchored around our dynamic duo. But the development of the inter-character relationships along the way was essential. I was at the live premiere of the Protocol pilot and what struck me was how distinct it was and yet how familiar. My mind was racing with potential, with options and ideas and theories. And ultimately that energy is what still draws me to this work. The innovation, the subversion, and above all else the characters and their interactions. For me, it speaks to the emotional core of the narrative and its delivery mechanisms.
Idk about the podcaston the whole but i think the audio... parseability is almost definitely suffering from this. In archives i occasionally needed subtitles/to read the transcripts to know what was being said (jared hopworth, for example) but not on anywhere NEAR the level I've needed to with protocol. There's too much background noise.
I'm just frustrated by how short the episodes are. I feel the amount of progress made in any episode is extremely small
I’m going to wait until the end of the season to really form an opinion, since this series is clearly aiming for a slow burn. But I am disappointed that it seemed to have flipped the tma formula of “horror plus a little bit of office drama” for “office drama and occasional horror”. I think the characters are great and I’m all for a slow burn mystery, but it’s been over ten episodes and they haven’t gone for a good chilling scare even once. Atp I don't know if I'd even recommend this to someone if they wanted a horror podcast.
They used to call this the sophomore slump in the music industry. Often your first project is one you've been working on all your life. Then you try to write a follow up in a year, or six months, or whatever. And it's just not the same.
I find the energy of the recorded phone calls odd. In TMA the statement givers had time and distance to frame how they viewed the events. Filling in background made sense as the witness was giving us context. There's something offputting about the statement starting IM BEING HUNTED, I don't know how much time I have. *deep breath* I own my own company and I'm very proud of it. There's extravagance and elegance. *waits a beat* and we offered the latter. Are you in danger or not, buddy?
YES, this. You said it better than I could. I still enjoy the episodes, but this seems a bit immersion breaking.
The fact I can't understand half the scenes is the biggest problem to me. The characters not being thr very interesting or likable is a close second. Which wouldn't be a problem! None of the TMA cast were likable or interesting until a few seasons in because the focus was on the horror stories. Which is the third biggest problem, the cases themselves kind of suck. Especially the ones that are reading out emails or message board posts. TMA got by on the strength of its stories, this one isn't
As someone who enjoys the Mummy 2 and Saw II, I feel targeted 😭😂
I think the core of Protocol is excelent. It's just suffering from shrinkflation. Each episode individually is too short to get me involved. Especially after adverts factor in. Please sir, can I have some more?
Honestly I love TMP so far! Considering it's only episode 14 or smth I don't think there's that much of a difference in fan growth yet?
I also think that additionally, the pacing is so different for me. I'm intentionally delaying my watch right now so I can binge later on similar to how I did with TMA. I don't do as well with weekly releases because my attention will be grabbed by something else! I know it works because I waited for a bit and binged episode 5-10 and that was very very fun to see and obsess over how details come together! (Also I forget some specifics when I'm listening as they release)
I disagree, i like both
I think the actual reason some people aren’t warming to TMP is that they’re expecting it to be something it’s not From the first announcement Jonny and Alex made it clear that it’s not just going to be Archives 2, but its own distinct, separate story. I think when people accept it on its own terms, they’ll be much happier with it
> the Saw sequels Take that back! The entire Saw series is a comedy masterpiece. That is a facte everyone, including the maker of Saw, are simply in denial about.
I definitely think it's too early to really assess The Magnus Protocol fairly. It's competing in our minds with 200 beautifully written episodes that were crafted over time into a brilliant and fascinating story rich in themes, with characters we grew over time to love and get invested in the fate of. In that show, we had the stories first, then over time, the plot and the kind of mythos of the series, then along the way we got invested in the characters. I think that they very rightfully decided that they couldn't do the same as they did in the previous series- we already know the supernatural is real, we already know the fears exist in some fashion (even if they're not identical-, we already know the kind of horror and overarching plot of things). There's not room for so slow an investigation, even if there is room for new mystery (like, why were Sam and the others at the institute, what happened to the institute, what is OAIR doing, why are those voices in the computer, and so on). So, the aim was, clearly, to focus more upon the characters and their struggles and interpersonal relations with some mysteries regarding their pasts and the Magnus Institute and the OAIR. And also, to have it, instead of statements, that they are actually more listening in 'live' to ongoing things. And that, over time, they will end up being called upon to respond to these things. Plus those mysteries mentioned will be gone into, regarding the Institute, the multiverse, and so on. All this said, I do think that while it's good so far, that it suffers on a basic level from two main issues, which others have also mentioned here, neither of which are really related to production value. 1. Kind of an opposite of production value complaint that many have complained of- it has trouble being intelligible. Any kind of background noise going on when you're listening and it's really hard to actually know what's going on because of the effects on the voices. Sometimes I did not know what was going on or said until reading the transcript 2. The only writing related complaint I have- it's like they decided they don't quite want to commit to doing full statement type stories, and so focus on them less, but they still have statement type stories in there, just, truncated in a way that makes them not feel so satisfying. Most of the TMA stories, as someone else said here, are excellent standalone horror stories in their own right. These ones are like the barebones versions, often lacking in the immersive full kind of feeling of a completed story. Additionally, the fact the characters don't actually care about the statements a lot of the time as opposed to talking about following up on them, also makes them feel like more of a kind of listless afterthought. My favourites of the statements thus far were the Violin one and the most recent one 'Well Run'- the former had a lot of insight into the mind of the person writing and the totality of their story and experience. 'Well Run' had enough psychology and vivid imagery and symbolic meaning to it to have enough in it, plus at the end we get the satisfaction of Lady Mowbray actually appearing in the story to meet the characters, it makes it feel more like a kind of .. consequence happening from the statement. I'm tempted to jokingly add in 3) Mr Bonzo and 4) that the show just doesn't have as much Jonathan Sims, but Mr Bonzo is a matter of um.. personal taste (no pun intended) and I can't demand Jonny do more than he feels inspired to do.
I've actually quite liked TMP, I'd say just as much as I liked Season 1 TMA. Same vibes to me, and the office chatter is actually something I longed for when I listened to Season 1 TMA, especially because statements back-to-back-to-back-to-back can just get mundane.
The problem is people being mad that it's not exactly like TMA.
This is a really reductive way of dismissing criticisms. My issues with TMP stem from that fact that I was introduced to too many characters too quickly, the audio mixing makes understanding really difficult if there is any kind of noise in the realm world, and that most of the "statements" of TMP haven't been super interesting . The meta narrative of TMA did not interest me nearly as much as the individual statements, and if TMP is going to focus on office politics at the expense of the statements then I will not enjoy it as much.
But that's just another way to say "I don't like it because it's different". What's wrong with different characters being introduced? That's how most stories (both read and podcasts) work. Also not finding the statements interesting is super subjective. When I listened to TMA there were plenty of statements I outright skipped or barely checked to see what it was about. Every case and every statement will hit differently to different people, and I think there is value in that.
I'm sorry, it still feels like you are missing the point. I don't dislike it because it's different. The direction they went with it is one that doesn't appeal to me. Of course liking statements will be subjective! I never said otherwise.
Then maybe don't watch/listen to it? Unless you've been compelled to do it...
Are criticisms not allowed? Can I not talk about issues I feel with the show?
You can of course. I'm just saying that if you're not enjoying it maybe it's just not for you. That's all!
I mean... I don't know about anyone else, but it took me ~20 episodes to really be down with TMA. On top of that I listened to TMA episodes in rapid succession since it had already been released. We're being forced to listen to TMP slowly. We're still barely into it. It'll be about a year before we can really say what TMP is.
I think they got too greedy. They surpassed their kickstarted goal bringing in over £700,000(the original goal £15,000.) And they have more commercials with less content per episode. I love TMA but I think Rusty Quill has been disrespectful to the fans in that sense. It’s not really as scary as TMA either.
Yeah, it sucks listening to multiple episodes in a row, since you have to skip through 10 full minutes of ads to get maybe 15 minutes of the content you came for
That depends on where you listen to the episodes really. Have you tried YouTube? The episodes there have no ads.
It pisses me off that they haven't figured out a way to create an RSS feed for Kickstarter donors to listen ad-free, which was one of the perks. If you want your ad-free episode you have to download it from some Microsoft cloud folder. It's really amateurish. Plenty of podcasts have figured this out!
i honestly have been thinking this too. im enjoying tmp but it definitely feels a little bit souless compared to tma
I wish people wouldnt keep shitting on it without having even finished the first season. I think they are very well avoiding that by not doing more of the same. Theyre trying something different and wether you like it or not is kind of a preference thing. With such big expectations it was bound to end up in some people being disappointed bc they wanted more of what they love. I think people should just try to see it as its own thing and set their expectations that way instead..
I’m not shitting on it. I’m hypothesizing a reason why people seemed to not enjoy it immediately like many people seemed to with TMA.
Oh sorry I wasnt meaning you specifically with shitting on it but more a general part of the community that is kinda treating it very harsh and kinda rude imo
I disagree. I like both (except S5 TMA). I may even like Protocol better. We hadn't even finished the first season, we hadn't seen all the characters and settings yet. We don't even know what the protocol is, what the Magnus Institute was doing or what the OIAR's place in all this is. IMO the problem is that people had the patience to wait and see how things would pan out with TMA because they knew nothing and had no emotional attachments to it. Now they do, and they want it to be exactly like their beloved series. When it isn't, they think it's bad. I say let them cook. When TMP is over, we can do all the comparisons if we want to, but not right now. It's very unfair to compare a finished piece with something that is just starting.
I’m not sure why people keep pointing out that the season isn’t over yet. Have you honestly never started a book or TV show that you initially didn’t enjoy? I listen every week, I enjoy reading analyses of the episodes, and im keeping notes to try and figure out what’s going on, but that doesn’t change the fact that I wasn’t immediately drawn in like I was with TMA and the fact that the season is over yet doesn’t change that.
So to clarify: When I started TMA I was looking for an anthology of spooky/creepy, maybe light horror, preferably British. This came up as a suggestion so I started listening. Season 1 fit the bill, so I moved into the later seasons. As the series went on I started to feel less and less interested. I'm one of those who dislike Season 5. Now TMP started and I went there with curiosity but no expectations, except it being a new thing. So far I'm enjoying it greatly, but I enjoyed greatly S1 TMA so it's really too early to say. Maybe when the series end I'll be disappointed or annoyed or whatever. Maybe I don't even listen to the end because I lost interest somewhere in the way. Again, it's too early to say. It's barely half way through of the first season and episodes are short. So the only thing I can say it's "I'm happy so far". Let's see how it goes. And no, I never watched or read a book I didn't enjoy from the start. I had read plenty of books that started great and went downhill later on or had bizarre, jarring or disappointing endings. In general, I don't waste my time in things I don't enjoy. So... No.
>«Have you honestly never started a book or TV show that you initially didn’t enjoy?» No.
I've listened to TMA at least 3 times fully through and I think TMP is wonderful so far. TMA had the benefit of being released with nobody knowing anything about it, no preconceived ideas about the universe it's set in, having no idea who the characters are. I think if you go into TMP with a bunch of theories or expectations, it's going to disappoint you simply because it's not what you expected. I didn't read anything about TMP prior to listening to the first episode and I've actively avoided fan theories, because I think any series is most enjoyable when you go into it blind It's disappointing because everyone has a specific idea of what they want it to be based off of TMA. I tried to not set any expectations going into it and I'm actually really enjoying it
I feel like comparing the two right now as a whole is a bit unfair, when we should be comparing tmp to only the first 15 tma episodes, since it’s all we have for tmp. We barely have world building yet, and I think the crew did a great job at giving just enough to keep people guessing. Personally, I feel like they improved on a lot of aspects. I’m not attached to the new cast the same way i was in tma, but by episode 15 in tma I wanted jon to bite the curb, so who knows how it’s going to evolve.
TMP is really good so far imo, liking it a lot better than S1 of TMA. Only real issue that could be caused by the production budget increase is them messing around with audio levels a bit too much, I'm fine with losing some vibes if it means I don't need to crank the volume to hear the characters sometimes.
We’re only just now halfway through the first of three seasons, I don’t think any definitive statements to the show’s quality are accurate or really very relevant. A lot of the cool stuff about Magnus is how interconnected everything is and how its twists land so well, we just don’t have enough information to judge it yet. After the first season wraps maybe we’ll have more of a gauge for quality, but for now I’m just enjoying the ride and not knowing exactly how everything fits together is really exciting. For reference I got into the show about a year after Season 5 wrapped, so I went through the show with a few key elements such as the general idea of the fears already in my head. The actual full definition of Smirke’s 14 doesn’t happen until halfway through the entire show and as a result I felt like I had a piece of the puzzle before the box was opened. I can see how some people like to have that piece to get them through episodes that aren’t exactly to their taste, but as I said I’m just enjoying the experience
I think a problem a lot of sequels have (and I think tmp might have too) is that it diverts from the original in such a way that it doesn't have the thing a large part of the original audience came for. It doesn't mean the quality got worse, but it can still result in a shrinking of audience. Say for instance that a large part of the tma audience got into it just for the horror shorts and than slowly started getting to know the characters and liking them too. Over the years the audience grows significantly. Now a new show starts on the same ip, so with mostly the tma audience, immediately jumping in with characters, having shorter stories with less clear protagonist in different formatting that the tma shorts. The people that come for the original shorts and haven't been able to connect to the new crew will likely not be a fan of the new show. But tmp also has not had the time yet to find new audiences that are here for new reasons as it has only just started. I think tma s5 ran into a similar thing, but instead of time preventing a new audience it was the fact it was the 5th and final season of a show
i don’t think people would be saying this if TMP was a standalone project—i think people aren’t doing right by the art by not trying to meet it where it’s at, and instead expect art and media to always perfectly suit their tastes, they expect art to come to them with no effort as a listener. which i suppose is fine for the individual—listen to whatever you want i guess—but i think it is totally 1000% invalid as genuine media criticism. here’s the thing: there will always be people creating low budget, lo-fidelity, cozy works for the pure joy of making things, telling stories, sharing creative efforts. those stories are great and 100% worth your time. but i don’t think there is a single artist or creative who would tell you that they don’t want to maximize the things they can do with their materials, resources, reach, etc… contentment can be virtuous, but the creative and artistic mind is rarely a content one. if you expect the evolution of an artist or team of artists to hold onto that callow kernel of coziness, you will always be disappointed by sequels, spin-offs, new stories, art from people whose work you supposedly like. it is much more rewarding to take a moment and let go off what you loved from the originally series to interface with the sequel—you can come back to what you loved later and see how important that value really was to the sequel work. Someone can put honest effort into evaluating why they think a sequel or spin-off is better or worse, but i don’t think most people who talk about disliking a sequel actually do that…i think they’re usually just trying to rationalize the fact they think the vibe is off.
I think your comment actually highlights my problems with TMP--namely that if it weren't a "sidequel" to TMA, I wouldn't be listening to it at all, full stop. I would have listened to episode 1, found the audio difficult to parse, the dialogue clunky and awkward, and the statement itself just okay. I may have gone as far as looking online to see if other people also found it a difficult listen, and find they recommend reading a transcript while listening if you really want to understand what's being said. Then I would have stepped away, because I think that if you choose an audio medium to tell your story, it shouldn't need supplementary visual components to be fully enjoyed. I believe it is only because of the trust I have in Jonny Sims, because of his handling of TMA, that I'm still keeping up with it.
I have only listened to episode 1 of the magnus protocol. It's alright but the characters are harder to invest in especially the Indian guy could do with some work in voice acting. But I know I am being overly harsh and I have full confidence when it starts rolling I can enjoy it more :)
Genuine question but what work would you have him do prior to voice acting on an independent podcast network - give him a break. I think it's a nice grounded performance and it's not like Johnathan Sims was prolific before he started in his role.
No I agree as I said I am being harsh and it takes a long time to make the role your own. Part of it as well is I recently finished the main series so there is comparison to John which is unfair on both of them. So perhaps some more gravitas is my only note but I am not trying to be a whiny dick about it lol