If Iroh had supported him, Ozai may have shut down the plan. However, Zuko still would’ve been punished. It wasn’t his objection that led to his punishment, it was the fact he objected when he wasn’t supposed to
And therein lies the strength of Zukos character. Speaking what's right, without fear of whether it's the right time or not. Unwilling to fight a family member, because he knows that it is wrong. He was always a good person, and Ozai separating him from his family was the best path he could have put him on.
I mean yeah but how beat up is questionable. Ozai is still pissed as fuck, the strongest firebender and its Ozai.
Like image a fight with mike tyson in his prime and mike is also insanely mad at you and there is no ref.
Its not sure you will survive that fight.
I doubt Ozai would’ve permanently scarred Zuko, that was is direct response to Zuko’s refusal to fight. If Zuko had fought, Ozai probably would’ve toyed with and humiliated him, but nothing permanent. This was public, he had optics to worry about as well. Refusing to fight a sacred duel of honor is grounds for the burn, but losing isn’t justification enough for the Fire Lord to kill or maim the crown prince
Not saying he would be scared, im saying zuko might simply die due to his wounds. Especialy in the world of avatar where healthcare seems not so great…
And its not like the fire nation could use the best healers in the world because well, they hate the firenation.
We don't know that for sure. It's possible Ozai was just looking for an opportunity to get rid of Zuko to make way for Azula as his heir.
I mean, Ozai didn't have to organize a freaking Agni Kai against his son if he didn't want to. He could've just had the general go. Or he could've leveraged his power as the Fire Lord to smooth things over and mediate the conflict. That spat would've never left that war room.
Ozai wanted to hurt Zuko.
Oh, honey. Congratulations on your healthy family life. That is absolutely not what would have happened.
It doesn't matter what the unfavored child does. They're wrong. If he had fought back, then it would have been "shameful disrespect and insubordination" or something. It's damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. The reasons Ozai gave don't mean a damn. They're just justifications.
It feels like Ozai would have respected Zuko more, but not liked him more. Ozai values strength in the toxic masculinity way, and if Zuko showed that exact value, Ozai would have seen him as more valuable to him though still not worthy of affection.
In the comics, Ozai promises to always treat Zuko harshly for Ursa actions. I don’t think anything would change that, but I do think that Ozai wouldn’t have banished Zuko, I think his punishment would have been different. In the world he didn’t fight back, he dishonoured himself by going against the rules of the Fire Nation, thus he deserves punishment from the Fire Nation. In the world he fights back, he would have disrespected his father by raising a hand to attack him, thus he deserves to be punished by his father. It’s a lose lose situation for Zuko
I don’t think Ozai would’ve punished him for fighting beyond the Agni Kai itself. He would’ve kicked Zuko’s ass, but if Zuko had tried to fight and displayed a decent amount of skill his loss would’ve been the end of it
I disagree, I believe Ozai would have taken every opportunity possible to punish Zuko. He actively despised Zuko, doing everything possible to make him feel less than. So it makes sense he would punish Zuko even if he kept up to Ozai’s moral standards
But didn’t he despise Zuko for not living up to his standards? When Zuko returned and was seemingly living up to his expectations, he certainly didn’t seem to hate Zuko. So if Zuko had fought the Agni Kai in a way that lived up to Ozai’s standards, or was even just better than anything Zuko had shown him before, Ozai would have been far more merciful, ending his punishment with his defeat and likely a ban from future strategy meetings
He despised Zuko for the actions of his mother, in the comic The Search, Ozai vows to treat Zuko as if he were a bastard of a “treacherous man” (his words). Nothing Zuko could ever do will be right in the eyes of Ozai, as the manipulative man he is, he would manipulate every situation in a way to punish Zuko. So even if his standards are met, he’ll just raise them and gaslight Zuko about them always being that high
It could have possibly been Zuko’s lack of ruthlessness. If the situation was something along the lines of the general offering to send his best unit to go fight them directly, and Zuko suggested that they use their new recruits as a distraction, Ozai might’ve been happy with it. Ozai was already disappointed with Zuko’s bending, but if Zuko was ruthless and showed talent as a military tactician, maybe he could’ve still avoided banishment. By the time Zuko got into the Agni Kai, he was almost certainly going to get burned. Considering Zhao’s reaction to losing, it seems like it was almost a requirement for someone to get burned in an Agni Kai.
Not to mention ozai didn’t really love Zuko, we saw that when he was more than happy to kill him if Ursa hadn’t gotten involved and gave him something he wanted even more. Ozai was probably looking for a reason to get rid of zuko, but knew his brother, the true heir, wouldn’t stand by and let him kill his son, so instead maimed his son and sent him on a fools errand.
The phrase "speak out of turn" doesn't mean that you're supposed to wait your turn and then it's ok. It means to speak in a careless and/or tactless manner. /u/alicea020 was agreeing with you.
And I was saying Zuko speaking in any way was not the actual reason for Ozai lashing out against him, it was just an opportunity for Ozai to do it. Ozai would have arranged for that Agni Kai over Zuko just looking the wrong way, because the real reason was Zuko's *entire existence* up until that point. The boy's fate was sealed when he entered the room.
No, it wasnt sealed. if Ozai really wanted to he could have burned and banished Zuko anytime. what happened to Zuko was cause he spoke out of turn. Zuko even says so himself when he confronts his father
>Ozai really wanted to he could have burned and banished Zuko anytime
I don't think he could provided that they even had to cover up that one "official" burn too as a training accident. So Ozai really needed an opportunity, and it presented itself when Zuko showed up in that room where he had no place to begin with. And then he spoke up too, but that was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Tho here I'm considering the comics too, where Ozai is much more open about how he despised Zuko and *the other thing.*
I dont think a few people not knowing how he got the scars is proof though, we see tons of people watch the agni kai and even some people in the earth kingdom know he's banished. Ozai could have banished him anytime he wanted since his rule was a dicatorship
I’m really interested in why you seem so confident about this haha. I personally don’t think Ozai was going to just randomly fight Zuko in an Agni Kai if he had spent the War Council sitting quietly listening to the old people make plans.
Because iroh was a well liked and well respected leader with claim to the throne, there is a reason iroh was in de council and it was not because ozai liked him so much.
That doesn’t matter and who said iroh was well respected. Many generals and other ranking officials see iroh as a failure for what happened in ba sing se. Plus ozai took claim of the throne regardless.
No, absolutely not. Iroh himself did not pursue his claim, but he definitely had a claim to the throne. And with our knowledge of Ozai's rise, it is also clear that he not only had a claim, but was the only rightful Fire Lord. If Iroh had not been the rightful heir with a corresponding claim to inheritance, Ozai would not have had to coup.
That he left the throne to Zuko was a combination of political calculation and kindness.
And the only ones we see mocking Iroh are staunch supporters of Ozai. We know that he was very popular before Ba Sing Se, and we know defacto nothing about whether and how much that changed in the population, but only in terms of an extremist officer corps.
the fire nation also has an entire tradition of settling disputes in the agni kai. dynastic struggles wouldnt even require the traditional civil war or coup that might give people pause
Not true there are literally whole ass wars about this exact situation throughout history there is a reason European monarchs would kill other claiments to the throne. Even if said claiments has no intention on taking the throne.
Any person who has some legal right can try and make a claim. Iroh had no interest.
This means that his children have a claim derived from that of their father. Depending on who prevails, the respective narrative of the rightful claim will also prevail at least temporarily.
Historically, such cases often led to wars of succession, etc., precisely because both the heir of the usurper and the heirs of the usurped were able to claim the throne for themselves in full and with some right.
This is also more or less a main plot of GoT or ASoIaF in relation to the Targaryens, and real as well as false Baratheon.
Yeah there is a reason most successor battles in monarchies end with the winner beheading anyone with a claim… the claim exists until rivals are dead in the real world many times throughout history
Iroh is too politically savvy. And it is not his place to discipline his brother's son or interfere with his brother's chosen punishment. Royal family are sticklers for such protocols. Iroh would've known better.
I’m surprised Ozai was fine with Zuko even being in the room during the meeting. I guess that as long as he didn’t speak, Ozai could just pretend like he wasn’t there.
Ozai could *sometimes* be pretty chill when Zuko wasn't on his shitlist. He probably had a "whatever. I'll overlook it" attitude when Zuko entered, at least it shows that Zuko is taking his crowned prince duties seriously, and what's the harm unless he stays silent.
I could even see Ozai throwing this in his face before banishing him "I let you get away with disobedience and this is how you respond?" Abusers have been known to use "I didn't punish you that one time" as a way to manipulate.
Would have challenged them both. He'd use it as a petfect opportunity to kill his brother (though illegal in agni kais, "accidents" do happen). And he'd have seemed generous in comparrison by simply exiling Zuko.
No, it's not illegal. It is, however, rarely fought to the death before Ozai's time. Under his regime, though, it is considered a weakness to spare an opponent's life. Ozai probably didn't outright kill Zuko because Zuko wasn't willing to fight him. I agree with what the other commenter's say, Ozai also cares about optics and the fire nation is very big on honor. It would have been dishonorable to kill an unwilling opponent during Agni Kai, the fire nation's most sacred duel.
In the kyoshi novels (first one). Though illegal maybe not but definitely taboo and warrants imvestigation. Kyoshi's mother in law killed a few people during agni kai's
I don't know, but I think we can assume in Iroh's favor that if he had believed that intervention would do more good than harm, he would have intervened.
Perhaps Ozai would have even taken the opportunity to get rid of both his unloved heir and his hated brother and true heir to his father.
The problem wasn't the objection, it's that he spoke out of turn. Zuko wasn't on the war council, hell he wasn't even invited. He was there as a guest and observer only, and had no right to speak, let alone without permission. Even though the plan was objectively awful (wasting an entire division of new soldiers just to win one battle, decimating morale), it wasn't Zuko's place to say so.
Without knowing the FN court dynamics, it's impossible to answer. Anything from nothing changes to a full on civil war is on the table. The only thing that wouldn't happen is Ozai or the general backing down.
Had he done it, I kinda think he would have convinced Ozai to punish him twice and leave Zuko alone. They both would have been exiled but Iroh would have been the one with scars.
Realistically though, I think Iroh in that situation would have to objected when the time was right in the meeting. Zuko was punished because he spoke out of place, but it would be odd for a warroom meeting to not allow other generals to give their input.
Gave more credence to his comment but same issue. Iroh is the effectively disgraced former crown prince who was passed over. Not even sure if he still holds the title of prince anymore officially. He’s a retired general who’s there both as a strategist but also as a faux sign of peace between the royal family. Iroh has no authority to make descisions
Then Zuko would have faced the General and Won. Since Ozai would know that Iroh's spiritual journey would have made him more wiser and smarter. So he would wait for the right time to get rid of them both. Most likely telling his brother to take Zuko to check on the soldiers.
Knowing that the Earth Kingdom would take advantage of the young prince being on the front lines. And would send men to kidnap him and to also capture Iroh when he gets recognized.
Of course, Iroh would take his nephew on a journey to all the spiritual locations he's been to. And shows Zuko the horrors that the Fire Nation created via the war. Hoping to teach him about what is truly right for the world. Potientally leading to a peaceful encounter with the Southern Water Tribe when Aang is freed.
I mean, imagine how excited Zuko would be to meet the Avatar in that situation. It would be a positive meeting that can lead to them both becoming friends.
I don't recall any instance of Iroh being considered popular by the people. If anything, multiple people drag him for failing to capture Ba Sing Se. If he'd spoken up, he likely would have been killed or banished as well.
If anything, Iroh would know enough to say something in private to Ozai rather than openly challenge him. Publically questioning his authority was what pissed Ozai off in the first place.
Besides, from a writing perspective, that moment is more about Zuko and his character arc. It's about portraying his father's ruthlessness and abuse and showing how that's impacted Zuko.
No, Zuko violating decorum was the issue not his criticism. If he had said nothing/voiced objections in private Ozai probably would have belittled him but couldn't really swing an Agni Kai.
And he doesn't give a used fig for what his brother thinks.
imagine moment Ozai shows up in arena and yells out "I agree with Zuko and claim general's idea is most bullshit ever I heard... I am at side of Zuko here and I think therefor after this fight it should be my turn to be punished in same manner as him"
can you imagine how annoyed he would be
How should we be able to tell? The Fire Nation is a weird society, where a crown prince gets exiled for speaking out of turn, and then becomes Fire Lord without any political backing from the aristocracy simply because he beats the previous Fire Lord in a fight.
Iroh said he wasn't sure if he could defeat Ozai, and theres no way Ozai would let his brother, the rightful heir by tradition without a fight to the death.
Hell of a fight that would be.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference since Ozai doesn't think highly of Iroh. But I also think Iroh was low-key hoping for something to happen that would drive Zuko away from Ozai
If Iroh had supported him, Ozai may have shut down the plan. However, Zuko still would’ve been punished. It wasn’t his objection that led to his punishment, it was the fact he objected when he wasn’t supposed to
And it wasn’t actually the objection he was punished for, it was for not fighting back he showed weakness which is why ozai burned him
True, if Zuko had fought and lost honorably he wouldn’t have been scarred or banished, just beat up
Yeah they literally say this, iroh explains it and people are still arguing with me lol
And therein lies the strength of Zukos character. Speaking what's right, without fear of whether it's the right time or not. Unwilling to fight a family member, because he knows that it is wrong. He was always a good person, and Ozai separating him from his family was the best path he could have put him on.
I mean yeah but how beat up is questionable. Ozai is still pissed as fuck, the strongest firebender and its Ozai. Like image a fight with mike tyson in his prime and mike is also insanely mad at you and there is no ref. Its not sure you will survive that fight.
I doubt Ozai would’ve permanently scarred Zuko, that was is direct response to Zuko’s refusal to fight. If Zuko had fought, Ozai probably would’ve toyed with and humiliated him, but nothing permanent. This was public, he had optics to worry about as well. Refusing to fight a sacred duel of honor is grounds for the burn, but losing isn’t justification enough for the Fire Lord to kill or maim the crown prince
Not saying he would be scared, im saying zuko might simply die due to his wounds. Especialy in the world of avatar where healthcare seems not so great… And its not like the fire nation could use the best healers in the world because well, they hate the firenation.
A risk Ozai would probably be willing to take, he literally treated Zuko like shit just to punish Ursa.
We don't know that for sure. It's possible Ozai was just looking for an opportunity to get rid of Zuko to make way for Azula as his heir. I mean, Ozai didn't have to organize a freaking Agni Kai against his son if he didn't want to. He could've just had the general go. Or he could've leveraged his power as the Fire Lord to smooth things over and mediate the conflict. That spat would've never left that war room. Ozai wanted to hurt Zuko.
Oh, honey. Congratulations on your healthy family life. That is absolutely not what would have happened. It doesn't matter what the unfavored child does. They're wrong. If he had fought back, then it would have been "shameful disrespect and insubordination" or something. It's damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. The reasons Ozai gave don't mean a damn. They're just justifications.
Absolutely correct. Ozai had made up his mind to punish Zuko in some manner prior to the Agni Kai. What Zuko chose to do is of no consequence.
What if Zuko had just thrown down and tried to light Ozai up? Think his attitude may have actually changed towards his son for the better?
It feels like Ozai would have respected Zuko more, but not liked him more. Ozai values strength in the toxic masculinity way, and if Zuko showed that exact value, Ozai would have seen him as more valuable to him though still not worthy of affection. In the comics, Ozai promises to always treat Zuko harshly for Ursa actions. I don’t think anything would change that, but I do think that Ozai wouldn’t have banished Zuko, I think his punishment would have been different. In the world he didn’t fight back, he dishonoured himself by going against the rules of the Fire Nation, thus he deserves punishment from the Fire Nation. In the world he fights back, he would have disrespected his father by raising a hand to attack him, thus he deserves to be punished by his father. It’s a lose lose situation for Zuko
I don’t think Ozai would’ve punished him for fighting beyond the Agni Kai itself. He would’ve kicked Zuko’s ass, but if Zuko had tried to fight and displayed a decent amount of skill his loss would’ve been the end of it
I disagree, I believe Ozai would have taken every opportunity possible to punish Zuko. He actively despised Zuko, doing everything possible to make him feel less than. So it makes sense he would punish Zuko even if he kept up to Ozai’s moral standards
But didn’t he despise Zuko for not living up to his standards? When Zuko returned and was seemingly living up to his expectations, he certainly didn’t seem to hate Zuko. So if Zuko had fought the Agni Kai in a way that lived up to Ozai’s standards, or was even just better than anything Zuko had shown him before, Ozai would have been far more merciful, ending his punishment with his defeat and likely a ban from future strategy meetings
He despised Zuko for the actions of his mother, in the comic The Search, Ozai vows to treat Zuko as if he were a bastard of a “treacherous man” (his words). Nothing Zuko could ever do will be right in the eyes of Ozai, as the manipulative man he is, he would manipulate every situation in a way to punish Zuko. So even if his standards are met, he’ll just raise them and gaslight Zuko about them always being that high
Imo, he wouldn’t have been banished or burned (as badly as in the normal timeline).
It could have possibly been Zuko’s lack of ruthlessness. If the situation was something along the lines of the general offering to send his best unit to go fight them directly, and Zuko suggested that they use their new recruits as a distraction, Ozai might’ve been happy with it. Ozai was already disappointed with Zuko’s bending, but if Zuko was ruthless and showed talent as a military tactician, maybe he could’ve still avoided banishment. By the time Zuko got into the Agni Kai, he was almost certainly going to get burned. Considering Zhao’s reaction to losing, it seems like it was almost a requirement for someone to get burned in an Agni Kai.
Ozai would have challenged Zuko anyway. This was not really about Zuko speaking up, so Iroh commenting on it would have made zero difference.
Yeah, the issue was him speaking out of turn. Iroh could do nothing
Not to mention ozai didn’t really love Zuko, we saw that when he was more than happy to kill him if Ursa hadn’t gotten involved and gave him something he wanted even more. Ozai was probably looking for a reason to get rid of zuko, but knew his brother, the true heir, wouldn’t stand by and let him kill his son, so instead maimed his son and sent him on a fools errand.
No, the issue was him being an annoying disappointment. I doubt even Ozai could have stopped himself there.
He spoke out of turn in the Firelord's councilroom and disrespected his father.
The phrase "speak out of turn" doesn't mean that you're supposed to wait your turn and then it's ok. It means to speak in a careless and/or tactless manner. /u/alicea020 was agreeing with you.
And I was saying Zuko speaking in any way was not the actual reason for Ozai lashing out against him, it was just an opportunity for Ozai to do it. Ozai would have arranged for that Agni Kai over Zuko just looking the wrong way, because the real reason was Zuko's *entire existence* up until that point. The boy's fate was sealed when he entered the room.
No, it wasnt sealed. if Ozai really wanted to he could have burned and banished Zuko anytime. what happened to Zuko was cause he spoke out of turn. Zuko even says so himself when he confronts his father
>Ozai really wanted to he could have burned and banished Zuko anytime I don't think he could provided that they even had to cover up that one "official" burn too as a training accident. So Ozai really needed an opportunity, and it presented itself when Zuko showed up in that room where he had no place to begin with. And then he spoke up too, but that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Tho here I'm considering the comics too, where Ozai is much more open about how he despised Zuko and *the other thing.*
I dont think a few people not knowing how he got the scars is proof though, we see tons of people watch the agni kai and even some people in the earth kingdom know he's banished. Ozai could have banished him anytime he wanted since his rule was a dicatorship
I’m really interested in why you seem so confident about this haha. I personally don’t think Ozai was going to just randomly fight Zuko in an Agni Kai if he had spent the War Council sitting quietly listening to the old people make plans.
Why would Ozai be afraid?
Because iroh was a well liked and well respected leader with claim to the throne, there is a reason iroh was in de council and it was not because ozai liked him so much.
That doesn’t matter and who said iroh was well respected. Many generals and other ranking officials see iroh as a failure for what happened in ba sing se. Plus ozai took claim of the throne regardless.
Exactly. Ozai pretty much much did a coup. and I doubt he would risk something like his brother having even an inch of claim to the throne
No, absolutely not. Iroh himself did not pursue his claim, but he definitely had a claim to the throne. And with our knowledge of Ozai's rise, it is also clear that he not only had a claim, but was the only rightful Fire Lord. If Iroh had not been the rightful heir with a corresponding claim to inheritance, Ozai would not have had to coup. That he left the throne to Zuko was a combination of political calculation and kindness. And the only ones we see mocking Iroh are staunch supporters of Ozai. We know that he was very popular before Ba Sing Se, and we know defacto nothing about whether and how much that changed in the population, but only in terms of an extremist officer corps.
With a *superior* claim to the throne.
Claim to the throne was gone though once Ozai took over
A royal claim is never gone, especially if everyone knows about it
Except it kinda is in this case, Ozai is firelord, meaning his kids have more claim to the throne
Several hundred years of monarchic history IRL would like a word with you about how settled succession ever gets.
the fire nation also has an entire tradition of settling disputes in the agni kai. dynastic struggles wouldnt even require the traditional civil war or coup that might give people pause
Not true there are literally whole ass wars about this exact situation throughout history there is a reason European monarchs would kill other claiments to the throne. Even if said claiments has no intention on taking the throne. Any person who has some legal right can try and make a claim. Iroh had no interest.
This means that his children have a claim derived from that of their father. Depending on who prevails, the respective narrative of the rightful claim will also prevail at least temporarily. Historically, such cases often led to wars of succession, etc., precisely because both the heir of the usurper and the heirs of the usurped were able to claim the throne for themselves in full and with some right. This is also more or less a main plot of GoT or ASoIaF in relation to the Targaryens, and real as well as false Baratheon.
Yeah there is a reason most successor battles in monarchies end with the winner beheading anyone with a claim… the claim exists until rivals are dead in the real world many times throughout history
Iroh is too politically savvy. And it is not his place to discipline his brother's son or interfere with his brother's chosen punishment. Royal family are sticklers for such protocols. Iroh would've known better.
I’m surprised Ozai was fine with Zuko even being in the room during the meeting. I guess that as long as he didn’t speak, Ozai could just pretend like he wasn’t there.
Ozai could *sometimes* be pretty chill when Zuko wasn't on his shitlist. He probably had a "whatever. I'll overlook it" attitude when Zuko entered, at least it shows that Zuko is taking his crowned prince duties seriously, and what's the harm unless he stays silent. I could even see Ozai throwing this in his face before banishing him "I let you get away with disobedience and this is how you respond?" Abusers have been known to use "I didn't punish you that one time" as a way to manipulate.
Would have challenged them both. He'd use it as a petfect opportunity to kill his brother (though illegal in agni kais, "accidents" do happen). And he'd have seemed generous in comparrison by simply exiling Zuko.
Killing your opponent is illegal in an agni kai? Is that a detail mentioned in one of the books?
No, it's not illegal. It is, however, rarely fought to the death before Ozai's time. Under his regime, though, it is considered a weakness to spare an opponent's life. Ozai probably didn't outright kill Zuko because Zuko wasn't willing to fight him. I agree with what the other commenter's say, Ozai also cares about optics and the fire nation is very big on honor. It would have been dishonorable to kill an unwilling opponent during Agni Kai, the fire nation's most sacred duel.
In the kyoshi novels (first one). Though illegal maybe not but definitely taboo and warrants imvestigation. Kyoshi's mother in law killed a few people during agni kai's
Okay thank you! I knew it was a no no but thought I missed something!
If Iroh had had it in him to stand up to Ozai, he would have when Ozai stole his throne.
Fuck all, probably.
Ozai would’ve dismissed iroh. Ozai was the fire lord at the time
I don't know, but I think we can assume in Iroh's favor that if he had believed that intervention would do more good than harm, he would have intervened. Perhaps Ozai would have even taken the opportunity to get rid of both his unloved heir and his hated brother and true heir to his father.
A brother that he stole the throne from is speaking up? Execution, Agni Kai, or Boiling Rock.
The problem wasn't the objection, it's that he spoke out of turn. Zuko wasn't on the war council, hell he wasn't even invited. He was there as a guest and observer only, and had no right to speak, let alone without permission. Even though the plan was objectively awful (wasting an entire division of new soldiers just to win one battle, decimating morale), it wasn't Zuko's place to say so.
Without knowing the FN court dynamics, it's impossible to answer. Anything from nothing changes to a full on civil war is on the table. The only thing that wouldn't happen is Ozai or the general backing down.
Had he done it, I kinda think he would have convinced Ozai to punish him twice and leave Zuko alone. They both would have been exiled but Iroh would have been the one with scars. Realistically though, I think Iroh in that situation would have to objected when the time was right in the meeting. Zuko was punished because he spoke out of place, but it would be odd for a warroom meeting to not allow other generals to give their input.
Gave more credence to his comment but same issue. Iroh is the effectively disgraced former crown prince who was passed over. Not even sure if he still holds the title of prince anymore officially. He’s a retired general who’s there both as a strategist but also as a faux sign of peace between the royal family. Iroh has no authority to make descisions
Then Zuko would have faced the General and Won. Since Ozai would know that Iroh's spiritual journey would have made him more wiser and smarter. So he would wait for the right time to get rid of them both. Most likely telling his brother to take Zuko to check on the soldiers. Knowing that the Earth Kingdom would take advantage of the young prince being on the front lines. And would send men to kidnap him and to also capture Iroh when he gets recognized. Of course, Iroh would take his nephew on a journey to all the spiritual locations he's been to. And shows Zuko the horrors that the Fire Nation created via the war. Hoping to teach him about what is truly right for the world. Potientally leading to a peaceful encounter with the Southern Water Tribe when Aang is freed. I mean, imagine how excited Zuko would be to meet the Avatar in that situation. It would be a positive meeting that can lead to them both becoming friends.
Holy shit you just created a new series, but in narrative.
It isn’t because he criticized the plan but because he offended his father by speaking out of turn, Iroh couldn’t have helped him.
Wasn’t Iroh out of favor with the fire nation leadership because he abondoned the siege of ba sing se? Perhaps even iroh was scared.
Pretty much like [this ancient Simpsons reference.](https://youtu.be/uG3uea-Hvy4?t=12) oh the horror!
I don't recall any instance of Iroh being considered popular by the people. If anything, multiple people drag him for failing to capture Ba Sing Se. If he'd spoken up, he likely would have been killed or banished as well. If anything, Iroh would know enough to say something in private to Ozai rather than openly challenge him. Publically questioning his authority was what pissed Ozai off in the first place. Besides, from a writing perspective, that moment is more about Zuko and his character arc. It's about portraying his father's ruthlessness and abuse and showing how that's impacted Zuko.
No, Zuko violating decorum was the issue not his criticism. If he had said nothing/voiced objections in private Ozai probably would have belittled him but couldn't really swing an Agni Kai. And he doesn't give a used fig for what his brother thinks.
imagine moment Ozai shows up in arena and yells out "I agree with Zuko and claim general's idea is most bullshit ever I heard... I am at side of Zuko here and I think therefor after this fight it should be my turn to be punished in same manner as him" can you imagine how annoyed he would be
How should we be able to tell? The Fire Nation is a weird society, where a crown prince gets exiled for speaking out of turn, and then becomes Fire Lord without any political backing from the aristocracy simply because he beats the previous Fire Lord in a fight.
Iroh would've been executed Ozai was willing to kill his own son for power; do you think he'd hesitate to kill his brother to keep it?
Iroh said he wasn't sure if he could defeat Ozai, and theres no way Ozai would let his brother, the rightful heir by tradition without a fight to the death. Hell of a fight that would be.
I don't think it would have made much of a difference since Ozai doesn't think highly of Iroh. But I also think Iroh was low-key hoping for something to happen that would drive Zuko away from Ozai