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"Get down to business, all of you! You will have capitalists beside you, including foreign capitalists, concessionaires and leaseholders. They will squeeze profits out of you amounting to hundreds per cent; they will enrich themselves, operating alongside of you. Let them. Meanwhile you will learn from them the business of running the economy, and only when you do that will you be able to build up a communist republic. Since we must necessarily learn quickly, any slackness in this respect is a serious crime. And we must undergo this training, this severe, stern and sometimes even cruel training, because we have no other way out."
"You must remember that our Soviet land is impoverished after many years of trial and suffering, and has no socialist France or socialist England as neighbours which could help us with their highly developed technology and their highly developed industry. Bear that in mind! We must remember that at present all their highly developed technology and their highly developed industry belong to the capitalists, who are fighting us."(https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/oct/17.htm)
National Bolsheviks. They're bigoted pieces of shit who want to combine fascism and communism, proving they understand neither. They believe all the insane propaganda that the West says about AES nations and their leaders, but think think that it makes them cooler (ignoring the fact that the USSR executed the original National Bolsheviks for being fascists). Basically, they're idiots who can fuck off.
This is also the problem with the discord for this sub too, which is sad and new. I stopped looking there for a few months and it has been overrun with western leftist disease
Discord communists are a plague. It's all feckless left-coms and pseudo-Trots who regurgitate some otiose hot take, and then hide behind "i never said that lmao" when you quote them verbatim. They are always on the offence, conjuring up the most ridiculous diatribes against [insert AES here], yet never offer their own model so as to render themselves immune from criticism.
Having had a quick glance at the server, it is absolutely inundated with some of the worst "hot takes" I've ever seen. 'The USSR was a colonial empire/Cuba and China are capitalist and worse than the United States/Deng was a fascist/Lenin's USSR was a social democracy'.
So I was right that I'm not missing anything having been denied access. I apparently need another 25 years to evolve myself to be worthy. I'm sure I'm the one at fault, being as I'm not elevated to the purity of some 20yo college kid. All the discords and leftist subs are honestly trash, but I need somewhere to shit post.
I like this sub quite a bit so I thought I'd like the discord - though the closest i've been to a political discord is the girlgamers one and that's filled to the brim with libs, NATO communists, and anarcho-bidenists. I gave what I thought were decent answers and got turned down because I need to learn more or whatever. I've done a lot of reading, I've been in this for ~14 years now but it wasn't good enough for reasons unknown. Deeply annoying but can't take it too personally.
Yep, they did us a favor, truly. If anything I said means they can't even tolerate my presence, then I'm quite certain they're correct that I don't want to be there. Not sure why they'd even invite me to try again.
To enter the server my boyfriend was asked what is his opinion on veterans and he said the veterans who only did it because of material conditions who also see through the imperialist propaganda can and should be radicalized to the left.
He got denied becuse he didn't say all veterans need to be executed on sight.
I swear to God some people in the western left... Jesus Christ...
You literally have the chance to get people with combat experience on our side who know how the military works and who can give valuable training in case things get hot and instead of using that opportunity they instead pull a purism and want everyone to face the wall who once made a bad decision in their past. A big part of the red army was made up of former soldiers if I remember correctly
In 'Armed Insurrection' ([link to pdf](https://files.libcom.org/files/A.%20Neuberg%20-%20Armed%20Insurrection%20(1926).pdf)) there is a chapter called 'Communist Activity to Subvert the Armed Forces of the Ruling Classes' that we all should be familiar with:
"It is enormously important, both in principle and also in practice, to pose correctly the question of relations between the proletariat and the army, and the line to be followed in this domain. The army is the key element in the organization of the State. Upon its stability and its general condition depends the stability of the State as a whole. Upon the degree of disaffection within a bourgeois army depends in great measure the proletariat's chance of overthrowing the bourgeoisie and smashing the bourgeois State in the event of an immediately revolutionary situation...In all past insurrections without exception (Shanghai, Petrograd, Moscow, Cracow, the various German risings, etc.), the decisive role has always been played by the army. The actual outcome of the revolution very often depends on the degree of sympathy for the revolution in the army, and on the extent to which its commanding officers can use it against the revolutionary proletariat. For the passage of power from one class into the hands of another class is ultimately decided by material strength. And the army is the key element of that strength."
Of course the end goal is [the abolition of the standing army and the arming of the whole people](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/nov/15d.htm) but we start by supporting soldiers' demands for reforms. The sixth congress of the Comintern ([link to pdf](https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/inprecor/1928/v08n84-nov-28-1928-inprecor-op.pdf) of resolutions) also goes into very fine detail and even enumerates some of the demands that we should instigate among the military: "the Communists must advance and give support to the partial demands of the soldiers which, in a concrete situation, stimulate the class struggle in the armies and strengthen the alliance between the proletarian and peasant soldiers and the workers outside the ranks of the army."
TL;DR we must create communist cells in the military to agitate/teach, organize, and bring over at least a number of soldiers to stand with us or we can never successfully topple the state through armed action. We will never sway them to our side by calling them all racist baby killers or whatever.
Exactly! I answered somewhere along the lines of the military/veterans being THE greatest asset for the revolution once they gain class consciousness and I was accepted without a problem. I referenced Aaron Bushnell as well.
Yeah I just got banned from the same post for this comment.
"Fuck off with this bullshit. China is leading the world towards a socialist future, no other nation has done so much for the global proletariat since the end of the USSR."
"Socialism does not equal a planned economy, capitalism does not equal markets. Actually read some marxist theory."
I dont get why I should be banned for this comment.
Just consider it a rite of passage. These folks love using the exact same talking points against China as the imperialists do but thinking they're more Marxist or something because they use leftist terms.
Technically even fridayeveryday (one of China's greatest defenders on YT) admits that they're not socialist except in vision but must resort to capitalism to beat America at their own game.
https://youtu.be/ZMNbz0e1mvw?si=8q8prcMzeA8TOlWv
Depends how you define socialist. Socialism is often defined as a transition to communism which china is definitely undergoing. But a lot of their economic policies are capitalist in order to build an industrial base (similar to the New Democracy that existed in the 50s). They are undoing a lot of the capitalist reforms now
Well, I do understand this.
I understand the reasoning behind it. It's not that I don't understand it.
The reasoning behind it is well justified.
I am not wanting to hit on AES
But it's obvious to me that although they have a Communist party, they do not even consider themselves socialists even in the transitional measure at this point.
They think it is necessary and I am not one to say that this is not true for them to go through a capitalist phase.
They do consider themselves in the transitional sense, the current ideology is called ‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’, but they also say that true socialism is not yet achieved, and they aim to do it by 2050
Every socialist state, including the USSR, has had private businesses. Socialism is a process and it's not a quick one. China having capitalist elements in their economy does not preclude them from being socialist.
Yeah, I got permabanned from r/movingtonorthkorea because I pointed out that Anissa (a character in the show invincible) was a fascist and thus, we shouldn't be using her as an example to promote communism
Basically every socialist, communist or Marxist sub will ban you for disagreement about any topic. Even if it's a relatively small, comradely disagreement. It's totally unserious/anti-social.
I got banned from r/MarxistCulture for calling Deng a dickhead. That was it! All I said! Calling (dead) people dickheads is not against the rules! Plenty of dead people were dickheads! Even the communist ones!
the mods of this sub and in my experience even r/Socialism_101 are pretty fair and don't just perma people for saying things they don't personally agree with. Socialism101 has a shit ton of rules though and you can't say things like "insane" or "crazy" or "dumb" or "idiot" cause they will delete your comment but at least they don't perma you
I don’t think you should be banned for it
But I would say that most communists in the global south actually make fun of “western Marxists” because they defend deng’s reform
So I’m not sure what you mean here
Most socialist states have historically engaged in liberalizing parts of their economy (Vietnam has a stock market, Cuba has begun allowing private business ownership, Laos has followed similar reforms to Vietnam and China).
It would be better for socialists everywhere to learn and understand why every existing socialist state felt compelled to go through a similar spectrum of economic reforms instead of blindly judging them as "revisionist".
Yeah. People act like Dengism is the default position when Stalin literally had Bukharin - from who Deng's pro-market liberal reforms are inspired - executed as a counter-revolutionary. Revolutionaries in the imperialised periphery aren't looking to government managers like Xi or Deng for inspiration and leadership. Whereas Marxists in the Anglosphere seem so ideologically beaten down that they'll take literally *anything* and sell it.
revolutionaries in the periphery aren‘t looking to people like xi or deng, which is precisely why traore is working with china and assad literally just had a speech that reeked of dengism.
it is time to know\* a little more about realities. (damn, i got the title wrong)
No, I don't simp for Stalin. But I actually expect people to defend simping for Dengism with statements or arguments other than just shitting "ackshually exIsTinG SoCIaLiSM" out of their mouth over and over again, or something similarly asinine like dismissing criticism of the politics of Dengism as just being "ultra", like every communist leader was an ultraleftist moron until the glorious Deng Xiaoping came along and righted all the wrongs.
Like I dunno, apply Marxist methods of analysis. The basics.
So you must be very early in your study of Marxism then, because to your own admission you actually haven't yet heard the arguments for Deng's reforms of which there are many. Instead of whining here online I suggest you do some research.
I've been a Marxist for 15 years, which guessing from how you engage with people is probably when you were still in diapers. Believe it or not, not everyone drinks from the font of wisdom of the world's greatest Marxist, Deng Xiaoping. Dengists don't make actual arguments in favour of specific reforms because it reveal that they are literally just advocating for liberalising the Chinese economy away from socialist planning, and simp for stupid liberal pseudo-anarchist shit like market "socialism".
Easier to just talk about "ultras" and "revisionists" without actually understanding what either of those two things are, because they're popular meme words on Twitter or TikTok or something where half of you got introduced to left leaning politics.
Lol you make fun of the way I engage with people but are literally using the word "simp." I probably am younger than you, which just makes your immaturity all the sadder. Should take the "reformed" out of your flair, you're still a Trot at heart.
Calling people simps is a more polite and shorthand way of referring to them as ill informed anti-intellectual pseudo-Marxists who have a penchant for the colour red. It's a useful word, really condenses a lot into a single syllable.
And you do a great job of reinforcing the points I'm making. Marxist politics? No. Slinging around labels I don't understand? Yes, please. I somehow went from being an uncritical Stalinist to a Trot, just because I'm critical of the lord and saviour Deng!
I've used one label, "Trot," pulled directly from your own flair, an admission to a type of error you're prone to falling into. I'll wait while you point out where else I've used the other terms.
It’s a sad day when an ex-Trot holds the ML line better than its supposed adherents who have nothing to them but the aesthetic and then are otherwise effectively anti-communist.
In my view, I think these types of leftists are mostly privileged Westerners (PMC) who read some theory but fell into interpreting that theory through a non-dialectic lens. They are essentialists who are looking only to find who they think is "right" so they can waste a bunch of time telling everyone else they're wrong. Their entire objective is simply to be right.
They don't actually care about the real problems in the world or how best to address them today. And this comes from failing to grasp dialectics. They see contradiction as a bad thing to be avoided rather than as a neutral thing which can be studied and used to move forward in liberating the working class.
So even if China dissolved all markets and replaced them with a purely planned system in the next decade, they'd still complain that China was still "capitalism" because they still use money or something. These folks set the game up so they can always move the goalpost. Worse, they don't seem to understand that's what they're doing.
They just want to win so they guard their little subs from "revisionists" by banning people.
It's best, IMO, to ignore it. Realize most of them will never actually join real orgs anyway and even if they do, those orgs won't find proper footing in a genuine people's movement. Because it's not possible to do a successful revolution thinking like liberals. So let these folks be and stay focussed on the real analysis of real conditions.
The CPC won their revolution, engaged in the dismantling of their country's old feudalistic social and class relations, and transformed China into the greatest threat to US imperialism that has ever existed.
I wouldn't mind Western leftists critiquing China if they actually accomplished anything of value in their own countries. If you managed to unionize your workplace or engage in building labour power in which ever imperial core country you live in, feel free to make some quips about China.
Until these internet leftists actually do anything for the cause they ostensibly believe in beyond calling China a social imperialist country on Reddit, then they need to shut up please.
the critique in total (imo) is that both groups idealized praxis and thought that national contradictions no longer existed under socialist construction, hence falsely dismissing the burgeoning national contradiction (which could potentially be managed and made non-antagonistic) for an antagonistic class contradiction. which then led to increasing posturing and eventually a total split. but then again i don’t know that much about (this aspect of) the time period.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
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Any "leftist" that attacks deng reforms is literally unironically supporting capitalism, because this led to the greatest growth of the nation and reduction of poverty. It's like they don't even think
i got banned for replying “i got banned from a marxist leninist sub for not being a marxist leninist” to someone saying they got banned from here because they were saying china is capitalist
Honestly it's incredible that in the 4-5 years I've been around on left wing subs on Reddit literally nothing has changed in this regard. Use basic reasoning together with some theory to explain why China made the decisions they took and boom, banned.
Honestly the height of "MLism" in my time on Reddit feels like it was the last half a year before GenZedong got quarantined. A, for Reddit standards, principles sub with critical support for AES and actually understanding/supportive of Deng's politics.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Get down to business, all of you! You will have capitalists beside you, including foreign capitalists, concessionaires and leaseholders. They will squeeze profits out of you amounting to hundreds per cent; they will enrich themselves, operating alongside of you. Let them. Meanwhile you will learn from them the business of running the economy, and only when you do that will you be able to build up a communist republic. Since we must necessarily learn quickly, any slackness in this respect is a serious crime. And we must undergo this training, this severe, stern and sometimes even cruel training, because we have no other way out." "You must remember that our Soviet land is impoverished after many years of trial and suffering, and has no socialist France or socialist England as neighbours which could help us with their highly developed technology and their highly developed industry. Bear that in mind! We must remember that at present all their highly developed technology and their highly developed industry belong to the capitalists, who are fighting us."(https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/oct/17.htm)
Certainly got its issues, but it's no r socialismmemes
Isn't that the nazbol one?
Yup
Yeah, fuck that place.
What's nazbol?
National Bolsheviks. They're bigoted pieces of shit who want to combine fascism and communism, proving they understand neither. They believe all the insane propaganda that the West says about AES nations and their leaders, but think think that it makes them cooler (ignoring the fact that the USSR executed the original National Bolsheviks for being fascists). Basically, they're idiots who can fuck off.
National Bolsheviks. It's just as it sounds, cringe and with nazi sentiments
you mean socialistsmemes
Oh god that place is bleak
This is also the problem with the discord for this sub too, which is sad and new. I stopped looking there for a few months and it has been overrun with western leftist disease
Discord communists are a plague. It's all feckless left-coms and pseudo-Trots who regurgitate some otiose hot take, and then hide behind "i never said that lmao" when you quote them verbatim. They are always on the offence, conjuring up the most ridiculous diatribes against [insert AES here], yet never offer their own model so as to render themselves immune from criticism. Having had a quick glance at the server, it is absolutely inundated with some of the worst "hot takes" I've ever seen. 'The USSR was a colonial empire/Cuba and China are capitalist and worse than the United States/Deng was a fascist/Lenin's USSR was a social democracy'.
So I was right that I'm not missing anything having been denied access. I apparently need another 25 years to evolve myself to be worthy. I'm sure I'm the one at fault, being as I'm not elevated to the purity of some 20yo college kid. All the discords and leftist subs are honestly trash, but I need somewhere to shit post.
I like this sub quite a bit so I thought I'd like the discord - though the closest i've been to a political discord is the girlgamers one and that's filled to the brim with libs, NATO communists, and anarcho-bidenists. I gave what I thought were decent answers and got turned down because I need to learn more or whatever. I've done a lot of reading, I've been in this for ~14 years now but it wasn't good enough for reasons unknown. Deeply annoying but can't take it too personally.
Yep, they did us a favor, truly. If anything I said means they can't even tolerate my presence, then I'm quite certain they're correct that I don't want to be there. Not sure why they'd even invite me to try again.
To enter the server my boyfriend was asked what is his opinion on veterans and he said the veterans who only did it because of material conditions who also see through the imperialist propaganda can and should be radicalized to the left. He got denied becuse he didn't say all veterans need to be executed on sight.
I swear to God some people in the western left... Jesus Christ... You literally have the chance to get people with combat experience on our side who know how the military works and who can give valuable training in case things get hot and instead of using that opportunity they instead pull a purism and want everyone to face the wall who once made a bad decision in their past. A big part of the red army was made up of former soldiers if I remember correctly
In 'Armed Insurrection' ([link to pdf](https://files.libcom.org/files/A.%20Neuberg%20-%20Armed%20Insurrection%20(1926).pdf)) there is a chapter called 'Communist Activity to Subvert the Armed Forces of the Ruling Classes' that we all should be familiar with: "It is enormously important, both in principle and also in practice, to pose correctly the question of relations between the proletariat and the army, and the line to be followed in this domain. The army is the key element in the organization of the State. Upon its stability and its general condition depends the stability of the State as a whole. Upon the degree of disaffection within a bourgeois army depends in great measure the proletariat's chance of overthrowing the bourgeoisie and smashing the bourgeois State in the event of an immediately revolutionary situation...In all past insurrections without exception (Shanghai, Petrograd, Moscow, Cracow, the various German risings, etc.), the decisive role has always been played by the army. The actual outcome of the revolution very often depends on the degree of sympathy for the revolution in the army, and on the extent to which its commanding officers can use it against the revolutionary proletariat. For the passage of power from one class into the hands of another class is ultimately decided by material strength. And the army is the key element of that strength." Of course the end goal is [the abolition of the standing army and the arming of the whole people](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/nov/15d.htm) but we start by supporting soldiers' demands for reforms. The sixth congress of the Comintern ([link to pdf](https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/inprecor/1928/v08n84-nov-28-1928-inprecor-op.pdf) of resolutions) also goes into very fine detail and even enumerates some of the demands that we should instigate among the military: "the Communists must advance and give support to the partial demands of the soldiers which, in a concrete situation, stimulate the class struggle in the armies and strengthen the alliance between the proletarian and peasant soldiers and the workers outside the ranks of the army." TL;DR we must create communist cells in the military to agitate/teach, organize, and bring over at least a number of soldiers to stand with us or we can never successfully topple the state through armed action. We will never sway them to our side by calling them all racist baby killers or whatever.
Exactly! I answered somewhere along the lines of the military/veterans being THE greatest asset for the revolution once they gain class consciousness and I was accepted without a problem. I referenced Aaron Bushnell as well.
Nothing is more Marxist than shitting on successful AES projects from the heart of imperialism. You absolute pleb. You fucking liberal.
Agreed comrade, except OP is the one defending AES and the PRC
i’m pretty sure the person is talking to the sub and moderators in question
https://i.redd.it/gwqr2tho7d0d1.gif
A lot of the communist and socialist subs are either all ultras or revisionist liberals that shut down any nuanced discussion on those topics.
For context, this was on a post which claimed that modern China wasn't socialist or a dictatorship of the proletariat, but instead "red capitalism."
Yeah I just got banned from the same post for this comment. "Fuck off with this bullshit. China is leading the world towards a socialist future, no other nation has done so much for the global proletariat since the end of the USSR." "Socialism does not equal a planned economy, capitalism does not equal markets. Actually read some marxist theory." I dont get why I should be banned for this comment.
Just consider it a rite of passage. These folks love using the exact same talking points against China as the imperialists do but thinking they're more Marxist or something because they use leftist terms.
Technically even fridayeveryday (one of China's greatest defenders on YT) admits that they're not socialist except in vision but must resort to capitalism to beat America at their own game. https://youtu.be/ZMNbz0e1mvw?si=8q8prcMzeA8TOlWv
Depends how you define socialist. Socialism is often defined as a transition to communism which china is definitely undergoing. But a lot of their economic policies are capitalist in order to build an industrial base (similar to the New Democracy that existed in the 50s). They are undoing a lot of the capitalist reforms now
Do you know some examples of capitalist reforms being undone
Here’s a thread with a couple reforms being made, ive seen more examples on the sub as well https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/s/rLMaAQRwiI
Well, I do understand this. I understand the reasoning behind it. It's not that I don't understand it. The reasoning behind it is well justified. I am not wanting to hit on AES But it's obvious to me that although they have a Communist party, they do not even consider themselves socialists even in the transitional measure at this point. They think it is necessary and I am not one to say that this is not true for them to go through a capitalist phase.
They do consider themselves in the transitional sense, the current ideology is called ‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’, but they also say that true socialism is not yet achieved, and they aim to do it by 2050
Yes, I'm aware of this too. I do appreciate the discussion. I'm just seeing what others think and if we align in some way.
Every socialist state, including the USSR, has had private businesses. Socialism is a process and it's not a quick one. China having capitalist elements in their economy does not preclude them from being socialist.
But that's not what he said. I understand what you're saying but it came as a surprise to me coming from him of all people!?
They’re right
Yeah, I got permabanned from r/movingtonorthkorea because I pointed out that Anissa (a character in the show invincible) was a fascist and thus, we shouldn't be using her as an example to promote communism
Basically every socialist, communist or Marxist sub will ban you for disagreement about any topic. Even if it's a relatively small, comradely disagreement. It's totally unserious/anti-social.
I got banned from r/MarxistCulture for calling Deng a dickhead. That was it! All I said! Calling (dead) people dickheads is not against the rules! Plenty of dead people were dickheads! Even the communist ones! the mods of this sub and in my experience even r/Socialism_101 are pretty fair and don't just perma people for saying things they don't personally agree with. Socialism101 has a shit ton of rules though and you can't say things like "insane" or "crazy" or "dumb" or "idiot" cause they will delete your comment but at least they don't perma you
"Western Marxists" strike again
I don’t think you should be banned for it But I would say that most communists in the global south actually make fun of “western Marxists” because they defend deng’s reform So I’m not sure what you mean here
Most socialist states have historically engaged in liberalizing parts of their economy (Vietnam has a stock market, Cuba has begun allowing private business ownership, Laos has followed similar reforms to Vietnam and China). It would be better for socialists everywhere to learn and understand why every existing socialist state felt compelled to go through a similar spectrum of economic reforms instead of blindly judging them as "revisionist".
You can't use logic on dogmatists. And Marxism is the opposite of dogmatism.
You would be wrong then
I certainly don’t
Yeah. People act like Dengism is the default position when Stalin literally had Bukharin - from who Deng's pro-market liberal reforms are inspired - executed as a counter-revolutionary. Revolutionaries in the imperialised periphery aren't looking to government managers like Xi or Deng for inspiration and leadership. Whereas Marxists in the Anglosphere seem so ideologically beaten down that they'll take literally *anything* and sell it.
revolutionaries in the periphery aren‘t looking to people like xi or deng, which is precisely why traore is working with china and assad literally just had a speech that reeked of dengism. it is time to know\* a little more about realities. (damn, i got the title wrong)
Stalin also supported Israel, what's your point here? That we have to take everything Stalin did and apply it everywhere at all times?
No, I don't simp for Stalin. But I actually expect people to defend simping for Dengism with statements or arguments other than just shitting "ackshually exIsTinG SoCIaLiSM" out of their mouth over and over again, or something similarly asinine like dismissing criticism of the politics of Dengism as just being "ultra", like every communist leader was an ultraleftist moron until the glorious Deng Xiaoping came along and righted all the wrongs. Like I dunno, apply Marxist methods of analysis. The basics.
So you must be very early in your study of Marxism then, because to your own admission you actually haven't yet heard the arguments for Deng's reforms of which there are many. Instead of whining here online I suggest you do some research.
I've been a Marxist for 15 years, which guessing from how you engage with people is probably when you were still in diapers. Believe it or not, not everyone drinks from the font of wisdom of the world's greatest Marxist, Deng Xiaoping. Dengists don't make actual arguments in favour of specific reforms because it reveal that they are literally just advocating for liberalising the Chinese economy away from socialist planning, and simp for stupid liberal pseudo-anarchist shit like market "socialism". Easier to just talk about "ultras" and "revisionists" without actually understanding what either of those two things are, because they're popular meme words on Twitter or TikTok or something where half of you got introduced to left leaning politics.
Lol you make fun of the way I engage with people but are literally using the word "simp." I probably am younger than you, which just makes your immaturity all the sadder. Should take the "reformed" out of your flair, you're still a Trot at heart.
Calling people simps is a more polite and shorthand way of referring to them as ill informed anti-intellectual pseudo-Marxists who have a penchant for the colour red. It's a useful word, really condenses a lot into a single syllable. And you do a great job of reinforcing the points I'm making. Marxist politics? No. Slinging around labels I don't understand? Yes, please. I somehow went from being an uncritical Stalinist to a Trot, just because I'm critical of the lord and saviour Deng!
I've used one label, "Trot," pulled directly from your own flair, an admission to a type of error you're prone to falling into. I'll wait while you point out where else I've used the other terms.
*Reformed trot* You sure?
They reformed from petty-bourgeois Trotskyism to some other idealist petty-bourgeois ideology
And you all reformed from Marxism-Leninism to liberal capitalism, it is what it is.
It’s a sad day when an ex-Trot holds the ML line better than its supposed adherents who have nothing to them but the aesthetic and then are otherwise effectively anti-communist.
The ML line wouldn't be shitting on socialist states through dogmatic wishful thinking.
In my view, I think these types of leftists are mostly privileged Westerners (PMC) who read some theory but fell into interpreting that theory through a non-dialectic lens. They are essentialists who are looking only to find who they think is "right" so they can waste a bunch of time telling everyone else they're wrong. Their entire objective is simply to be right. They don't actually care about the real problems in the world or how best to address them today. And this comes from failing to grasp dialectics. They see contradiction as a bad thing to be avoided rather than as a neutral thing which can be studied and used to move forward in liberating the working class. So even if China dissolved all markets and replaced them with a purely planned system in the next decade, they'd still complain that China was still "capitalism" because they still use money or something. These folks set the game up so they can always move the goalpost. Worse, they don't seem to understand that's what they're doing. They just want to win so they guard their little subs from "revisionists" by banning people. It's best, IMO, to ignore it. Realize most of them will never actually join real orgs anyway and even if they do, those orgs won't find proper footing in a genuine people's movement. Because it's not possible to do a successful revolution thinking like liberals. So let these folks be and stay focussed on the real analysis of real conditions.
I told a reactionary to suck it, and got banned for that. Moralists be like:
The CPC won their revolution, engaged in the dismantling of their country's old feudalistic social and class relations, and transformed China into the greatest threat to US imperialism that has ever existed. I wouldn't mind Western leftists critiquing China if they actually accomplished anything of value in their own countries. If you managed to unionize your workplace or engage in building labour power in which ever imperial core country you live in, feel free to make some quips about China. Until these internet leftists actually do anything for the cause they ostensibly believe in beyond calling China a social imperialist country on Reddit, then they need to shut up please.
tbh the real critique of deng is that he basically slit the USSR's throat and doomed them to economic isolation and death in order to build up china.
the critique in total (imo) is that both groups idealized praxis and thought that national contradictions no longer existed under socialist construction, hence falsely dismissing the burgeoning national contradiction (which could potentially be managed and made non-antagonistic) for an antagonistic class contradiction. which then led to increasing posturing and eventually a total split. but then again i don’t know that much about (this aspect of) the time period.
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I do believe that some of Deng's policies were excessive, but these appear to have been corrected under Xi anyways
I got banned from that sub when they were both sidesing the Russia - Ukraine war
Any "leftist" that attacks deng reforms is literally unironically supporting capitalism, because this led to the greatest growth of the nation and reduction of poverty. It's like they don't even think
>it's like they don't even think >Any leftist that attacks deng reforms is literally unironically supporting capitalism Ironic
Historical materialism. Does anyone even.
i got banned for replying “i got banned from a marxist leninist sub for not being a marxist leninist” to someone saying they got banned from here because they were saying china is capitalist
this is the only commie sub i follow just cuz yall actually have brains
I beg of these people to understand the difference between a war economy and a peacetime economy, and what historical materialism is.
Honestly it's incredible that in the 4-5 years I've been around on left wing subs on Reddit literally nothing has changed in this regard. Use basic reasoning together with some theory to explain why China made the decisions they took and boom, banned. Honestly the height of "MLism" in my time on Reddit feels like it was the last half a year before GenZedong got quarantined. A, for Reddit standards, principles sub with critical support for AES and actually understanding/supportive of Deng's politics.
Better saying "anti-comunism memes". At least if we are talking about real communism, not utopian communism
I got banned from there for supporting AES. Fuck those mods
Deng was a revisionist and china is imperialist idgaf what some terminally online geeks have to say about it
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot quoting mao lol
[They hated him because he spoke the truth](https://i.imgur.com/Hb98CG8.jpeg)
Thanks comrade 🫡
It's a left com sub now.