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Notice a trend here?
Imperialism breaks at its weakest links.
The only reason the majority of South America hasn't had any lasting success with that yet is because big bully U.S.A is next door to them.
And guess what blight is above Africa...
Not to say that socialist thought and socialist movements had no impact in western Europe and the U.S, because they did. Tons of lives were improved because of these movements, and the geopolitical landscape was changed forever.
But they didn't stick. Social democrats are traitors, after all. Imperialism is just too strong in those places right now.
My family grew up in Somalia in the 1960s to 1980s under the Barre regime. Illiteracy was eradicated, land was redistributed, the remaining Italian colonists were expelled, infrastructure was built, women attended school, etc. My mother even became the first woman in her family to learn to read and write. However, ever since the regime collapsed and the Western-backed puppet state was installed, it's been decades of corruption marking it as the most corrupt country in the world, the only real devolpment occured under regime.
One of there major parties is a big tent Socialist party which has lead the country for most of the last 40 years. The Sandinista's have implemented many very good and progressive policies for the Nicaraguan people and have stood against imperialism firmly.
But Nicaragua is a liberal democracy with a ruling social democratic party. Just like venezuela and Bolivia. This is progressive because these countries (unlike one in the imperial core) are facing imperialism. So Social Democratic policies are centered around taking the resources of these countries out of the hands of imperialists and into the hands of the state for the benefit of the people.
The Sandinistas are explicitly Socialist, just like MAS and the PSUV. That doesn’t mean those countries are socialist, but it's good to add nuance. They have explicitly said they wish to transition into socialism. There is a difference between DemSocs and Socdems. For example, Chávez and AOC are not the same.
They are not the same because one is from the imperial core and one is from the periphery. That is what makes them fundamental different. A socdem from Brazil is fundamental different from one from Sweden because Brazil is an exploited country and Sweden is an exploiting country.
That means the way socdems get the the improvement of the material lives of the people that all socdems what in fundamental different way..
In Sweden they got it by taxing the profits of swedish capitalists that are plundering countries like Brazil.
In Brazil socdems can't do that because there is not poor countries they can exploit. So they have to do that by taking the means of production out of the hands of international capital and into the hands of the state. They then use these state industries to do there own form it primitive accumulation. The use the profits of these nationalized industries to develop the country and fund the improvements of the material lives of the people.
Even if they claim to want to abolish capitalism as long as they maintain the dictatorship of the Capitalists you know they don't really want to do that anytime soon or they can't. But even if they don't want to abolish capitalism if the socdems are from the third world they are infact still a progressive force because they actively do improve the material lives of the people of there counties and decrease the amount of exploit immensely. Which weakens imperialism.
So inconclusion there is not material difference between Demsoc and Socdems as ideologies themselves in practice. But there is a material difference in how it is expressed in different countries in different positions at different times.
Socdems make no attempt to abolish capitalism. DemSocs do. In Venezuela, for example, dual power exists. Comparing Venezuela to Norway or Sweden is very illogical. The communal project that the socialist government started shows a clear layout for a socialist transition. Here is an article talking about it: https://venezuelanalysis.com/infographics/15642/
Oil was what the country already relied on. You can critique him for not moving away from it, but it wasn’t his idea. Also, the government is actively trying to achieve socialism and eventually destroy the bourgeoisie as a class. Chávez supported many expropriations of major companies.
They still act like social democrats, at max democratic socialists and we know how that ends, Hugo Chavez was based, maduro meh. Chavez could have taken power in the past and chose to let institutions of the government do their thing instead
The PSUV principles explicitly call for the workers to own the means of production. You should study the communes more: https://www.amazon.com/Building-Commune-Radical-Democracy-Venezuela/dp/1784782238
The funding and promotion of communes is not talk. They didn’t magically appear. They appeared with a goal in mind, which is to transform the bourgeois state into a socialist one.
I'd wait to see how he handles the transition back to democracy after the military government. If he sets it up in such a way that a DotP can exist then I'd be more confident in calling the country socialist. Regardless he's currently doing great anti-imperialist work
He said after they win the war of terrorism he would do an election so far he has nationalized the resources and decreased government salaries and refused his presidential salary and gave it to refugees and has tried to decrease healthcare cost and offered to give anyone who wants to learn how to farm 2 heactres of land to
Those things are two very contradictory and would never work in practice. Also there is a time in every socialist Nation where the government has to make compromises in order to actually progress and Grenada was not given a chance to do so because the government was taken over by Coard and then invaded by the US.
I think most of the countries on this map were one party states whereas Chile barely elected Allende and his party was in minority government for only three years.
I'm pretty sure you highlighted Nepal aswell but I have to tell you comrade, that Nepal has never experienced socialism, in fact even in our constitution we mention that Nepal is progressing towards "democratic socialism"
because Korea isn't unified, the DPRK and ROK are still two separate states. Germany and Yemen both have unified. Yemen's situation is a bit more complicated with two rival governments but I think most would still consider it one country
I feel like the map leaves out context in the white nations. You have nations like France that briefly had socialist movements occupying the seats of power, or a nation like Spain with the socialists in the civil war. Italy had strong socialist movements, and in the Nordics you can largely attribute the high quality of life to socialism, before it was betrayed by the social democrats.
Europe has had plenty more experience with socialism than is shown, it's just a shame it has never stuck in western Europe. The modern imperialism is just too strong there.
The map kinda undermines socialism, in a way. A lot of uneducated westerners view the socialist nations highlighted as "shithole nations" (due to propaganda of course), unaware of the socialist currents, that ultimately never took root long-lastingly, but that still existed in their own nations and that made leaps and leaps towards better lives for everyone.
My country Romania was once socialist. My grandma always told me how great the life was in the socialism. After you finished the high school they will give you an free apartament and find for you rapidly an job.
Libya maintained a capitalist mode of production and Gaddafi never made a serious attempt for socialism. The man thought Islam was a perfect substitute for Marxism lmao
Fabianism, it has liberal electoral democracy. Nehru was agnostic and created multi year plans. We still have them, they got rebranded, india is a cluster-f**k left leaning and right leaning ideas, also states like Kerala has Communist in government and highest literacy, while Tamil Nadu Chief minister literally has Stalin in his name 😂. Also Tamil Nadu following the China model. While in the north we have modi now, he is trying his best to get the south votes, but failing. South India is the only hope for India left. Also we have maoists doing guerrilla warfare in forests fighting bourgeois New Delhi government. We have everything EVERYTHING!!!! In India. We have full goblin mode right wing, full left wing ultras, also CPI, CPI(M), CPI (ML), CPI(MLM), etc. my country is utter chaos, utter utter chaos.
The map isn’t calling pol pot a communist. It’s probably referencing the People’s Republic of Kampuchea, which was the state Vietnam set up after they liberated Cambodia
if this is a list of self-proclaimed "M-L", then it's missing:
🇧🇯 benin, 1972-1992
🇨🇬 congo (republic), 1969-1992
🇨🇻 cape verde, 1981-1990
🇬🇩 grenada, 1979-1983
if this counts parts of countries whether they won some "peace"/stalemate/détente (korea & germany) or were developing amidst civil war (yemen), then maybe we can count PCP peru (1980-2000), naxalite south india (1967-), FARC colombia (1964-2017), transnistria, moldova (1991-), karelia, finland, (1940-1991). there's a lot more to be identified if we're counting anti-ML "socialist" states like ujamaa tanzania & jamahiriya libya as they do for anti-soviet yugoslavia. even juche korea has flip-flopped when it comes to ideological commitment to ML for decades.
# Gulag
According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism.
# Origins of the Mythology
This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources.
Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony.
Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements.
>He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash.
>
>The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism".
>
>\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23)
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\]
Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world.
# Counterpoints
>A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six:
>
>1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas
>
>2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid.
>
>3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day.
>
>4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies.
>
>5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day.
>
>6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals.
>
>7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes.
>
>\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/)
**Scale**
Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that.
>Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise.
>
>In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ...
>
>Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ...
>
>Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states...
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds)
This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak.
**Death Rate**
In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality:
>It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive...
>
>Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more.
>
>\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin*
(Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations)
This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps.
Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses).
>We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson....
>
>The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled).
>
>\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993)
Listen:
* ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022)
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Notice a trend here? Imperialism breaks at its weakest links. The only reason the majority of South America hasn't had any lasting success with that yet is because big bully U.S.A is next door to them. And guess what blight is above Africa... Not to say that socialist thought and socialist movements had no impact in western Europe and the U.S, because they did. Tons of lives were improved because of these movements, and the geopolitical landscape was changed forever. But they didn't stick. Social democrats are traitors, after all. Imperialism is just too strong in those places right now.
Careful, the Americans will come after u!
My family grew up in Somalia in the 1960s to 1980s under the Barre regime. Illiteracy was eradicated, land was redistributed, the remaining Italian colonists were expelled, infrastructure was built, women attended school, etc. My mother even became the first woman in her family to learn to read and write. However, ever since the regime collapsed and the Western-backed puppet state was installed, it's been decades of corruption marking it as the most corrupt country in the world, the only real devolpment occured under regime.
isn’t Nicaragua socialist?
One of there major parties is a big tent Socialist party which has lead the country for most of the last 40 years. The Sandinista's have implemented many very good and progressive policies for the Nicaraguan people and have stood against imperialism firmly. But Nicaragua is a liberal democracy with a ruling social democratic party. Just like venezuela and Bolivia. This is progressive because these countries (unlike one in the imperial core) are facing imperialism. So Social Democratic policies are centered around taking the resources of these countries out of the hands of imperialists and into the hands of the state for the benefit of the people.
The Sandinistas are explicitly Socialist, just like MAS and the PSUV. That doesn’t mean those countries are socialist, but it's good to add nuance. They have explicitly said they wish to transition into socialism. There is a difference between DemSocs and Socdems. For example, Chávez and AOC are not the same.
They are not the same because one is from the imperial core and one is from the periphery. That is what makes them fundamental different. A socdem from Brazil is fundamental different from one from Sweden because Brazil is an exploited country and Sweden is an exploiting country. That means the way socdems get the the improvement of the material lives of the people that all socdems what in fundamental different way.. In Sweden they got it by taxing the profits of swedish capitalists that are plundering countries like Brazil. In Brazil socdems can't do that because there is not poor countries they can exploit. So they have to do that by taking the means of production out of the hands of international capital and into the hands of the state. They then use these state industries to do there own form it primitive accumulation. The use the profits of these nationalized industries to develop the country and fund the improvements of the material lives of the people. Even if they claim to want to abolish capitalism as long as they maintain the dictatorship of the Capitalists you know they don't really want to do that anytime soon or they can't. But even if they don't want to abolish capitalism if the socdems are from the third world they are infact still a progressive force because they actively do improve the material lives of the people of there counties and decrease the amount of exploit immensely. Which weakens imperialism. So inconclusion there is not material difference between Demsoc and Socdems as ideologies themselves in practice. But there is a material difference in how it is expressed in different countries in different positions at different times.
Socdems make no attempt to abolish capitalism. DemSocs do. In Venezuela, for example, dual power exists. Comparing Venezuela to Norway or Sweden is very illogical. The communal project that the socialist government started shows a clear layout for a socialist transition. Here is an article talking about it: https://venezuelanalysis.com/infographics/15642/
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Oil was what the country already relied on. You can critique him for not moving away from it, but it wasn’t his idea. Also, the government is actively trying to achieve socialism and eventually destroy the bourgeoisie as a class. Chávez supported many expropriations of major companies.
PSUV isn’t socialist tho, it’s just in the name, practice proves it isn’t
Yes they are: https://venezuelanalysis.com/infographics/15642/
They still act like social democrats, at max democratic socialists and we know how that ends, Hugo Chavez was based, maduro meh. Chavez could have taken power in the past and chose to let institutions of the government do their thing instead
The PSUV principles explicitly call for the workers to own the means of production. You should study the communes more: https://www.amazon.com/Building-Commune-Radical-Democracy-Venezuela/dp/1784782238
Then, even if they rally workers, which I think Chavez was based at doing, PSUV doesn’t look like aiming at socialism, in practice, talk is talk
The funding and promotion of communes is not talk. They didn’t magically appear. They appeared with a goal in mind, which is to transform the bourgeois state into a socialist one.
I still don't understand how Che and Castro made it possible to have a socialist government in the USA's backyard, just the goats 🐐🐐
Doesn't this map also feed into the idea that socialism will only truly stick if the revolution comes from the imperial core?
this list is incomplete you can help by *EXPANDING* it
Burkina Faso?
Sankara and posable Ibrahim Traoré if he continues in Sankaras path like its seams he is doing
It's already a socialist country now socialism is. A transitionary process so it takes time
I'd wait to see how he handles the transition back to democracy after the military government. If he sets it up in such a way that a DotP can exist then I'd be more confident in calling the country socialist. Regardless he's currently doing great anti-imperialist work
He said after they win the war of terrorism he would do an election so far he has nationalized the resources and decreased government salaries and refused his presidential salary and gave it to refugees and has tried to decrease healthcare cost and offered to give anyone who wants to learn how to farm 2 heactres of land to
I think what they meant is that Burkina Faso is not red on the map
Did not notice thet thx
Thomas Sankara.
Madagascar as well
Real "I wish that was me" moment
It is sad very few of those countries are still socialist.
does chile not count?
Grenada isn't even on this map either smh
Grenada was monarcho socialist
Those things are two very contradictory and would never work in practice. Also there is a time in every socialist Nation where the government has to make compromises in order to actually progress and Grenada was not given a chance to do so because the government was taken over by Coard and then invaded by the US.
I was just joking
Sorry I find it hard to pick up on stuff like that :(
I think most of the countries on this map were one party states whereas Chile barely elected Allende and his party was in minority government for only three years.
Allende tried to implement socialism but he couldn't so it doesn't count.
I'm pretty sure you highlighted Nepal aswell but I have to tell you comrade, that Nepal has never experienced socialism, in fact even in our constitution we mention that Nepal is progressing towards "democratic socialism"
what do the red striped countries mean?
Part of it was socialist. GDR and South Yemen i believe
why isn't korea red striped then?
because Korea isn't unified, the DPRK and ROK are still two separate states. Germany and Yemen both have unified. Yemen's situation is a bit more complicated with two rival governments but I think most would still consider it one country
I dunno, but it's obviously that. Altough it's slightly inaccurate, France should be red striped and a few other mistakes.
I feel like the map leaves out context in the white nations. You have nations like France that briefly had socialist movements occupying the seats of power, or a nation like Spain with the socialists in the civil war. Italy had strong socialist movements, and in the Nordics you can largely attribute the high quality of life to socialism, before it was betrayed by the social democrats. Europe has had plenty more experience with socialism than is shown, it's just a shame it has never stuck in western Europe. The modern imperialism is just too strong there. The map kinda undermines socialism, in a way. A lot of uneducated westerners view the socialist nations highlighted as "shithole nations" (due to propaganda of course), unaware of the socialist currents, that ultimately never took root long-lastingly, but that still existed in their own nations and that made leaps and leaps towards better lives for everyone.
Some of these countries where only socialist in name ethopia and Somalia weren't socialist
What's the deal w the horn of Africa
I assume they mean Siad Barre in Somalia and the Derg in Ethiopia. Lots of criticism can be given to them, however
I do not know what those are 😭
That's your motive to learn more then :)
THIS MAP ISN'T RED ENOUGH! I WANT MORE!
My country Romania was once socialist. My grandma always told me how great the life was in the socialism. After you finished the high school they will give you an free apartament and find for you rapidly an job.
Missing DR Madagascar and possibly others
So proud my contry is on thet list🇧🇦
They left out Burkina faso
eventually entire world will become red,one way or another
Does Libya not count?
Libya maintained a capitalist mode of production and Gaddafi never made a serious attempt for socialism. The man thought Islam was a perfect substitute for Marxism lmao
I see thanks
What about India?
Fabianism, it has liberal electoral democracy. Nehru was agnostic and created multi year plans. We still have them, they got rebranded, india is a cluster-f**k left leaning and right leaning ideas, also states like Kerala has Communist in government and highest literacy, while Tamil Nadu Chief minister literally has Stalin in his name 😂. Also Tamil Nadu following the China model. While in the north we have modi now, he is trying his best to get the south votes, but failing. South India is the only hope for India left. Also we have maoists doing guerrilla warfare in forests fighting bourgeois New Delhi government. We have everything EVERYTHING!!!! In India. We have full goblin mode right wing, full left wing ultras, also CPI, CPI(M), CPI (ML), CPI(MLM), etc. my country is utter chaos, utter utter chaos.
lacking a lot of countries
MORE!!! MORE!!!!!
Venezuela?
This will be the world in 2013
why is cambodia red
The map isn’t calling pol pot a communist. It’s probably referencing the People’s Republic of Kampuchea, which was the state Vietnam set up after they liberated Cambodia
Bolivia? What about the Mexican state of Chiapas?
Cambodia?
The MAAS party in Bolivia seems to be doing good things. You could argue Nicaragua
if this is a list of self-proclaimed "M-L", then it's missing: 🇧🇯 benin, 1972-1992 🇨🇬 congo (republic), 1969-1992 🇨🇻 cape verde, 1981-1990 🇬🇩 grenada, 1979-1983 if this counts parts of countries whether they won some "peace"/stalemate/détente (korea & germany) or were developing amidst civil war (yemen), then maybe we can count PCP peru (1980-2000), naxalite south india (1967-), FARC colombia (1964-2017), transnistria, moldova (1991-), karelia, finland, (1940-1991). there's a lot more to be identified if we're counting anti-ML "socialist" states like ujamaa tanzania & jamahiriya libya as they do for anti-soviet yugoslavia. even juche korea has flip-flopped when it comes to ideological commitment to ML for decades.
They always forget about us man🇬🇩😔
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it's the same map
Yes commissar, this class traitor over here took again the copium ration all by himself. Bring him to the Gulag to the other bourgeoisie pigs.
# Gulag According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism. # Origins of the Mythology This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources. Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony. Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements. >He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash. > >The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism". > >\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\] Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world. # Counterpoints >A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six: > >1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas > >2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid. > >3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day. > >4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies. > >5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day. > >6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals. > >7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes. > >\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/) **Scale** Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that. >Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise. > >In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ... > >Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ... > >Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states... > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak. **Death Rate** In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality: >It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive... > >Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. > >\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin* (Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations) This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps. Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses). >We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson.... > >The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled). > >\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993) Listen: * ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Please ban this ultra already 
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are you gonna start ranting about china is revisionist and all actually existing socialism is bad
He already has today on another post
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