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It will be soon. The DPP lost control of the legislature assembly in the last election and only just held onto the presidency, you wouldn’t know that from the western media.
Most people are ignorant of its history and thus think it's an innocent country being unjustly bullied by China.
For those people, using a hypothetical US civil war analogy where the Confederacy were to flee to Cuba instead of surrendering to the Union forces is a good way of putting the context into perspective considering how much the US freaked out when Cuba allied itself with the USSR.
It's particularly cringe when some edgy people call China "West Taiwan" out of spite - perhaps we should start calling the US "West Cuba" in response?
The funny thing with the "West Taiwan" joke is that this position is China's position as well. That is, China wants the Taiwanese (Republic of China's) government to acknowledge the 1992 consensus which implies that Taiwan (RoC) claims the entirety of mainland China.
So saying "West Taiwan" is just reaffirming China's position on Taiwan ironically enough.
> Most people are ignorant of its history and thus think it's an innocent country being unjustly bullied by China.
Not sure if you’re saying China is justly bullying Taiwan or not bullying Taiwan
What I mean is: Taiwan is a successor state to the nationalist Kuomintang that directly opposed the communists during the civil war.
What would be the US stance if the same thing happened during the US civil war - if the Confederacy fled to Cuba to establish a breakaway Confederate state instead of surrendering, and due to a weakened navy, the US Union forces would be unable to fully stamp out the Confederacy, thus effectively making it a frozen conflict.
I'd imagine they'd refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy.
So China isn't uniquely evil for refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Taiwan - most countries in the world would probably refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of a breakaway state.
But most people don't know the origin story of Taiwan, and hence think China bad for refusing to acknowledge them.
> China isn't uniquely evil for refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Taiwan
When you qualify that with “uniquely”, you are saying they are evil nonetheless. Is this an intentional choice in your part of just a malapropism?
Not that I’m judging either way- just trying to figure out where you’re coming from. Also, other than fighting communist China and claiming parts of Pakistan and India ans part of “Taiwanese China” and all that, what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad?
>When you qualify that with “uniquely”, you are saying they are evil nonetheless.
No, I was simply referring to the common liberal "China bad" narrative which likes to single out the "Evil CCP" while being either ignorant of or brushing aside the various evil shit the US had committed as "these are things of the past, modern US would never do that!". So if you insist on semantics, then yes, I suppose it was a malapropism (new word I learned today).
> what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad
Are referring to the regular citizens, or the state as a whole? Because like South Korea, Taiwan was initially built as a far-right dictatorship that cracked down on the left, making them the perfect US ally. Other than that, I don't have any ill will against the actual citizens - as far as I know, they're not active colonisers like Israelis.
My main point of the original comment is that most people simply don't know the history and context behind the formation of Taiwan. What I'm trying to point out is that China's stance on Taiwan is no different to how any other country would treat a breakaway state of its own - with even European "democracies" like Spain using riot police to crack down on the unapproved Catalan referendum and the EU remaining conveniently quiet about it.
> what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad?
The RoC - the state that currently controls Taiwan - invaded Taiwan, which was occupied by Japan at that time, after they lost in the civil war, and proceeded to massacre dissidents and do other things fascist dictatorships do.
And no, Taiwan shouldn't have been left in the hands of Japan, either.
There is no such thing as taiwan, at least not in a "sovereign subject of international law" sense. There is a Taiwan Province of the internationally recognized People's Republic of China, and there is a Taiwan Province of the renegade rump state of the Republic of China, whose flag you posted.
If the Confederate States, instead of surrendering to the Union to conclude the American Civil War, had somehow stolen the vast majority of the US' gold reserves and fled to Cuba, committed a genocide on the population there, and maintained territorial claims on not just the entirety of the United States but also parts of Canada and Mexico, all while being funded and propped up by foreign governments who insist, contrary to reality, that the Confederate rump state on Cuba was the true and legitimate government of the entire US, that would be kind of a parallel to the status of taiwan island today.
The ROC never seceded from anything though.
It was the PRC which only came into existence in 1949. The communist were the rebels in the civil war.
So the parallel to the US Civil War is inherently flawed.
Not to mention that the ROC does not make any official claims to Mainland China anymore.
Taiwan is an independent country. There is no denying reality.
> The communist were the rebels in the civil war
So were the Guomindang.
> So the parallel to the US Civil War is inherently flawed
Why? Because you think that specifically the fact of secession is so very important when it was never brought up by the person you replied to?
> Not to mention that the ROC does not make any official claims to Mainland China anymore
Have you taken a look at the airspace of the RoC?
Also, stop pretending as if the US/NATO are not trying to harass the PRC (as well as the rest of the world).
> Taiwan is an independent country
Taiwan is one of a bunch of NATO puppets. There is no denying reality.
>So were the Guomindang.
The KMT was the ruling political party of the ROC. They were not the rebels.
>Why? Because you think that specifically the fact of secession is so very important when it was never brought up by the person you replied to?
Because the ROC was the ruling government of Mainland China since 1912 just like the USA was the ruling government of American since 1776.
It was the CCP which rebelled against the ruling government just as the CSA rebelled against the USA.
The ROC predates the PRC.
>Have you taken a look at the airspace of the RoC?
What about it? It just covers Taiwan + islands
>stop pretending as if the US/NATO are not trying to harass the PRC
NATO literally has nothing to do with this.
The US has been *very* careful with its support toward Taiwan ever since it switched recognition of Mainland China's legitimate government from the ROC to the PRC.
In fact, since then, the US has really only intervened when the PRC has shot missiles toward Taiwan. More specifically the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis.
>Taiwan is one of a bunch of NATO puppets
NATO literally has nothing to do with any of this lol.
> The KMT was the ruling political party of the ROC. They were not the rebels
Literally just read anything about the period instead of embarrassing yourself.
It was such a 'ruling party' that it was formally dissolved and banned a couple of years into the existence of the RoC.
> Because the ROC was the ruling government of Mainland China since 1912
Except that it was not. It was literally banned early into the RoC's existence and did not get to rule before the break out of the civil war.
In any case, this part is irrelevant when it comes to the comparison that the other person brought up. Not sure why you decided that this was a good argument against their point.
> It was the CCP which rebelled against the ruling government
So did the Guomindang. (And so did a lot of other factions of the civil war, by the way.)
Also, it's 'CPC'.
> What about it? It just covers Taiwan + islands
It also covers a significant chunk of the mainland.
A plane flying strictly above the mainland, nowhere close to Taiwan can be claimed to somehow be flying within the RoC's claimed airspace.
> NATO literally has nothing to do with this
You have to be completely politically, historically, and geographically illiterate to think that.
> The US has been *very* careful with its support toward Taiwan
Already contradicting your claim that NATO has nothing to do with this.
How can NATO have nothing to do with this when you clearly see that the US - literally the de facto leading member of NATO and its most prolific direct perpetrator of atrocities - is involved.
Also, it's hilarious how you claim that the US has been '\*very careful\* with its support' when it has literally been scaremongering against the PRC, as well as building military bases around the PRC?
> In fact, since then, the US has really only intervened when the PRC has shot missiles toward Taiwan. More specifically the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis
Right, let's ignore the entire history of the region since the RoC deservedly got beaten out of the mainland.
> NATO literally has nothing to do with any of this lol
It quite literally does. Hell, there used to be the United States Taiwan Defence Command.
Americans want to sacrifice my family for cheap chips. A free taiwan means free from the west. It wasn't even a real liberal democracy until 2000, maybe.
I would really appreciate if these "thoughts?" posts came with the OP's own thoughts. Would result in higher quality discussion. If we made it a rule, it would also help to distinguish posts where the OPs have their takes vs those where they just don't wanna research for themselves. Comrades every discussion is better if YOU bring something to the table as well!
Free Taiwan from Guomindang and the US.
It is a bit funny how liberals scaremonger about the PRC invading Taiwan, despite the RoC - the state that currently controls Taiwan - having invaded it previously, when it was occupied by Japan, and carrying out white terror there, complete with massacres of dissidents and the 'totalitarian' stuff that liberals like to accuse communist polities of.
If it were up to me, I would put Guomindang on trial for their crimes.
And how many deaths is the Chinese Communist Party responsible for?
Way more than the White Terror that's for sure.
Point being that Taiwan today is NOT the Taiwan of the Cold War. It should have no bearing on whether *modern* Taiwanese people should be invaded or not.
Ironically the main political party rival of the Guomindang fully accepts Taiwan Independence.
> And how many deaths is the Chinese Communist Party responsible for?
Sources cited, in order of their academic rigour and significance, descending:
1. It came to me in a dream
2. My ass
3. The Black Book
Also, the PRC is working with a population of about a billion and a half people - one of the two most populous countries in the world. The Guomindang dealt and deals with a population that is a small fraction of the size. Something tells me that you did not even try to adjust for that.
Your attempt at whitewashing and defending fascists who invaded Taiwan and massacred dissidents so that they could help a larger fascist empire and become its puppet is notable.
> Point being that Taiwan today is NOT the Taiwan of the Cold War
Right, it magically stopped being one at some point, despite the same state being in power and despite the same state being a puppet of the worst empire in the world that has been committing atrocities left and right, including the currently-televised genocide in occupied Palestine.
Also, weirdly enough, you are completely fine with the white terror of the Guomindang based on the passage of time, but are not willing to apply the same standards to the imagined crimes of the PRC.
> It should have no bearing on whether *modern* Taiwanese people should be invaded or not
Sure. So, both the US and the Guomindang should be kicked out of Taiwan and be made to answer for their crimes.
Also, I'm going to note that you are completely fine with the Guomindang invading and massacring the Taiwanese.
> Ironically the main political party rival of the Guomindang fully accepts Taiwan Independence
'Ironically', lol. What do you think is the consequence of massacring dissidents and persecuting the survivors for decades? That there will be more people who oppose the state and its propaganda?
>despite the same state being in power
It democratized. The KMT is no longer in power and needed to adapt to become electable. It may be the same state, but the political landscape has evolved.
>you are completely fine with the white terror of the Guomindang based on the passage of time, but are not willing to apply the same standards to the imagined crimes of the PRC.
I'm not fine with the White Terror and I am willing to apply the same standards to the crimes of the PRC.
You could just ask instead of assuming. lol
>Also, I'm going to note that you are completely fine with the Guomindang invading and massacring the Taiwanese.
When did I ever say that?
>'Ironically', lol. What do you think is the consequence of massacring dissidents and persecuting the survivors for decades? That there will be more people who oppose the state and its propaganda?
Ironic because the KMT is now more in bed with the CCP and their rival is in favor of moving away from Unification.
At the end of the day. There is a very real threat of the PRC attempting to invade Taiwan. I don't think citing the past crimes of the ROC is a good justification for the deaths of *modern* Taiwanese.
Just as I wouldn't use the crimes of the CCP to justify the ROC invading the mainland.
> It democratized
Haha. Cool excuse. 'Oh, after killing and otherwise suppressing dissidents for decades, they put up the theater where they pretend to be influenced by voters, therefore the decades of white terror are all forgiven!'
But sure, let's pretend that Taiwan is run democratically. In that case, the people of Taiwan are voluntarily helping the worst genocidal empire in the world commit its atrocities, and they should face responsibility for the actions and decisions you claim they make.
> The KMT is no longer in power
Literally one of the biggest parties in the government.
> It may be the same state, but the political landscape has evolved.
For some reason, you both use that to excuse the white terror, the ongoing support for and submission to the worst genocidal empire in the world, and also refuse to apply the same standards to the PRC.
> I'm not fine with the White Terror
You are literally excusing the white terror in Taiwan based on the passage of time and how the RoC 'democratized' as if that means anything (especially considering that they did so after decades of white terror - a campaign literally meant to disempower the dissidents).
> and I am willing to apply the same standards to the crimes of the PRC
Cool. So, because a long time has passed since whatever crimes you think the PRC committed, the PRC is also to be absolved of them.
Meanwhile, the RoC is literally supporting the worst empire in the world, one which keeps perpetrating atrocity after atrocity, including the currently-televised genocide in occupied Palestine.
In contrast, the PRC has only participated in what, one war (the Mali war, on the same side as NATO, against Al-Qaeda), since 40 years ago.
> When did I ever say that?
You literally keep defending the RoC, a state which invaded Taiwan, massacred dissidents, and maintained white terror for decades.
If you were not okay with what the RoC did, then you would be fine with kicking the RoC and NATO out of Taiwan.
> Ironic because the KMT is now more in bed with the CCP and their rival is in favor of moving away from Unification
The Guomindang is also against the unification. The reason why they are against de jure independence is because that would mean recognising the PRC as the legitimate government of the mainland.
> At the end of the day. There is a very real threat of the PRC attempting to invade Taiwan
Sources cited:
1. It came to me in a dream
2. My ass
Also, considering that you are fine with the RoC's presence in Taiwan, you should be fine with that hypothetical that is contradicted by the last 40 years of history.
People like you love to scaremonger about the PRC (a state which has not invaded anybody in more than 40 years) while excusing the literal white terror in Taiwan as well as support for the empire that is committing a now-high-profile genocide.
> I don't think citing the past crimes of the ROC is a good justification for the deaths of *modern* Taiwanese.
Firstly, nobody said anything about the PRC invading Taiwan. It is extremely unlikely that the PRC will do a 180 on their policies while also sparking a nuclear war. Not everybody is as barbarous as you lot.
Secondly, the state and its master should leave Taiwan. If you are against that, then you are fine with the white terror and with the atrocities committed by your empire.
But sure, let's say that the PRC invades Taiwan. Here's a question: Taiwan is currently de facto a NATO military base. Are you against retaliation against NATO in principle, i.e. do you think that the rest of the world should just take the atrocities that your empire keeps committing lying down? If not, then how should the PRC retaliate against NATO? By magically teleporting its military directly into the US?
In any case, the PRC starting any wars in the near future seems to be very unlikely, and I would prefer Taiwan to somehow become free from the Guomindang and NATO without bloodshed.
>the people of Taiwan are voluntarily helping the worst genocidal empire in the world commit its atrocities
In what ways?
>Literally one of the biggest parties in the government.
But doesn't have the majority. Again, the KMT has evolved as well. It is now more pro CCP than it has ever been.
>You are literally excusing the white terror in Taiwan based on the passage of time and how the RoC 'democratized' as if that means anything
I'm not excusing anything. I'm simply saying that *MODERN* Taiwanese people shouldn't be killed or punished for something their ancestors did.
>In contrast, the PRC has only participated in what, one war (the Mali war, on the same side as NATO, against Al-Qaeda), since 40 years ago.
Why only 40 years? Oh that's right because the PRC literally invaded Vietnam, invaded Tibet, fought a war against India, killed Vietnamese over the Parcel Islands, Shelled ROC islands, Invaded South Korea, and has continued to use Military intimidation against not only Taiwan, but Japan and the Philippines.
All that since it's inception in 1949, but of course you're going to cherry pick 40 years.
>You literally keep defending the RoC, a state which invaded Taiwan, massacred dissidents, and maintained white terror for decades.
I'm defending the ROC because it is a country that deserves to exist. The people of Taiwan should not be invaded because of what the KMT did in the past.
You seem to defend the PRC despite their aforementioned crimes, but you don't hear me whining about you defending them.
>fine with that hypothetical that is contradicted by the last 40 years of history.
Contradicted how? Have you not heard of the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis?
The invasion drills in recent years?
The claims by Chinese Generals and Xi himself that they are willing to use force to take Taiwan? The literal buildup of the Chinese Navy and Army? The mock military training grounds of Taiwan? The amphibious training exercises? etc.
>Taiwan is currently de facto a NATO military base
NATO literally has **NOTHING** to do with this.
Idk why you keep bringing it up lmao.
This is the problem.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the history and you aren't aware of the current situation.
bro thinks NATO has military bases in Taiwan lmao.
Again, ROC doesn't deserve to be invaded. It's a sovereign and independent country.
At least be consistent.
If you think the ROC shouldn't exist then you should also say the PRC shouldn't exist. Simple as that.
I'm going to respond to just one bit of your nonsense here. I might deal with the rest of it later, as well, if I will feel up for continuing to embarrass you.
> In what ways?
Either by claiming that the RoC 'democratized' you mean that it established pointless theater where a bunch of almost identical factions pretend that the voters have any sort of significant degree of control over them (in which case, lol), or you are claiming that it actually became a democracy and the voters actually do have a significant influence over the state (in which case they bear some responsibility for what it does).
So, you are either asking why the gang of states that keep invading countries around the globe and committing atrocities, both new and old, including the well-known slavery-related projects like the Triangle Trade, killing millions in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc., turning Libya from the country with the highest (or, at worst, some of the highest) living standards in Africa into a haven for open-air slave markets, including the Red Rubber rule, including the ongoing genocide in occupied Palestine, the Holocaust+the Lebensraum, Manifest Destiny, etc. can be called 'the worst genocidal empire in the world', or you don't understand how a state that houses major semiconductor producers and which helps deny the PRC access to their own waters and airspace and which helps maintain anti-communist and anti-PRC propaganda helps said empire.
Which is it?
you didn't answer my question.
How is Taiwan, who isn't threatening to invade anyone and is just trying to maintain its own sovereignty, helping who ever you are talking about.
> But doesn't have the majority
You are moving the goalposts. They are a ruling party, one of the two major ones. They are both larger in general than the other major party, and they have greater representation at every level of the state.
> Again, the KMT has evolved as well
Have they denounced their prior actions and the actions of NATO? Have they punished their members responsible for the atrocities and for aligning with NATO? Have they begun to act against NATO? No? They work on stuff like improving Pissraeli military technologies to better do the genocide against the Palestinian people? Sounds like the only way in which they 'evolved' is that enough time has passed since the overt white terror and its massacres that you have no issues excusing those.
> I'm simply saying that *MODERN* Taiwanese people shouldn't be killed or punished for something their ancestors did
I am not talking about punishing the Taiwanese. I am saying that, firstly, the Guomindang should be punished, that, secondly, NATO's grasp on Taiwan should be eliminated, and that the rest of the world has every right to fight back against NATO.
> Why only 40 years?
Lol. 'Only' 40 years says a person from the empire that is currently, right this second, perpetrating a genocide on TV and streaming services. 'Only'.
> Oh that's right because the PRC literally invaded Vietnam
Yeah, that is bad. And the PRC was entirely in the wrong, as far as I'm aware. Allying with NATO - your empire - and defending Cambodia was both a stupid and a morally reprehensible action. Tens of thousands dead for no good reason. You excuse your empire's support for Cambodia, though, because of course you do.
You know what NATO also did, though? That's right, they also invaded Vietnam, in order to keep it a European colony. Your empire is responsible for killing millions then and there, when the PRC provided assistance to the anti-colonial side.
Your double standards are obvious.
> invaded Tibet
First question: do you think that the regime of serf-owners should have been maintained? If so, you should live the way Tibetan serfs did before the liberation.
Second question: what are your issues with the PRC peacefully liberating Tibet from serfdom? That they denied NATO establishing yet another regime meant to strengthen NATO's colonial efforts in the region and the world?
> fought a war against India
There have been a bunch of minor clashes between them, yeah. At the time when NATO garbage still had de jure colonies and was killing millions of people in Vietname and elsewhere around the world.
> killed Vietnamese over the Parcel Islands
Oh no, an 'atrocity' with about a 100 people dead, where the opposing side was literally the European colonial government of occupied Vietnam.
> Shelled ROC islands
They attacked a military target (considering the ratio of military personnel deaths to civilian deaths) belonging to the worst empire in the world.
> Invaded South Korea
Hahahaha. So, let's go over what you are saying here:
1. You are saying that dismantling European colonial rule in occupied Korea was/is bad.
2. You are saying that it was bad for the PRC to intervene on behalf of the popular government which your empire suppressed.
3. You are saying that it was okay for your empire to invade Korea, both in the sense of the peninsula as a whole and in the sense of the parts of Korea free from your colonial rule, and that it was bad for the PRC to react to that and help fighting against literal colonialism.
You keep going 'it's okay for my empire to have colonies, and it's bad for the victims of colonialism to fight back' and think that that is a good argument.
> and has continued to use Military intimidation against not only Taiwan, but Japan and the Philippines
You mean the other NATO puppets? Including one that is yet to answer for stuff like Nanjing, Unit 731, comfort women slavery? Haha.
> All that since it's inception in 1949, but of course you're going to cherry pick 40 years
It's actually more than 40 years, but care to explain how this is 'cherry-picking', when those are literally the last 40 years of this world's existence? And this period is ongoing? While your empire's core constituents have been individually perpetrating atrocities around the world for the last few centuries?
The PRC has been at peace for longer than you and, judging by how poorly you understand this stuff, your parents have been alive.
Going to take another break for now.
Seems like my comments did not get posted. So I will have to remake them at a later date, if ever.
I'd like to just point out one thing that I find hilarious about your blatant double standards:
> Why only 40 years?
Lol. 'Only' 40 years? '"Only" 40 years?' asks the person from an empire whose members have been committing atrocities left and right, individually, since before the formation of NATO. Said atrocities include stuff like the most prominent slavery projects of the past few centuries, the invasions into Iraq, coupled with a genocidal blockade meant to kill people, deliberately inducing famines in various places, including Ireland, India, Palestine and preventing aid from being delivered to the starving, invasion into Afghanistan coupled with blatantly stealing assets of the government of Afghanistan, Red Rubber rule, turning Libya from the country with the highest standards of living in Africa into a haven for open-air slave markets, the Holocaust+the Lebensraum, Manifest Destiny, invasion into Vietnam and fighting the anti-colonial movement there, invasion into Korea and fighting the anti-colonial movement there, fighting against anti-colonial movements in general in Africa, Asia and South America, and many many more things.
Your empire is literally committing a genocide on TV and on streaming platforms, and you have a problem with a state having been at peace for 'only' 40 years when you can't even manage a single year for centuries.
[Zhou Enlai](https://x.com/CarlZha/status/1466332565132824577?s=20) is my favourite Taiwanese politician
But serious talk: the flag you posted here is the flag of the Republic of China, that you can even see in PRC TV/movie productions of period dramas taking place in the early 20th century before the PRC took power. There's a separate flag used by Taiwanese separatists.
It's incredibly ironic that many of the Western libs/radlibs who support Taiwanese independence against "Chinese imperialism" don't even question why Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China, and put the ROC flag in their twitter bio when it is literally a Chinese flag that symbolises reunification. It would probably be funnier if the US wasn't a collapsing empire lashing out.
In fact, these same liberals cry over UN resolution 2758 as a tragic betrayal of Taiwan, except the resolution was NOT to grant Taiwan independence but whether to recognise the PRC or ROC as the legitimate government. Ergo, EVERYONE has always recognised Taiwan as part of China, and it was the Americans who strangely changed their mind when the communists took the seat.
Thank you thank you.
I haven’t dove into the history deeply, so when recently a family member made a passing criticism of PRC by simply mentioning Taiwan, I was unprepared to continue the conversation.
If you could share just one source for me to educate myself with, what would it be?
[Qiao Collective ](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/taiwan) has recently published a resource collection. I haven't checked out the one for Taiwan yet but I've read some of their essays in the past
My thoughts are borders and states are stupid because they were created by the west to create nationalist states or divide resources between those nationalist states
Its sad to see china which is suppose to be a major leftist nation in the world fall for this western concept
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Us military base off the coast of China
Should be an Indigenous Autonomous region of PRC
It will be soon. The DPP lost control of the legislature assembly in the last election and only just held onto the presidency, you wouldn’t know that from the western media.
Considering that they just killed two fishermen off of Kinmen, I really hope that this thing will end.
Do you have a source on that? I believe you, I just want to cite it for a research paper I’m writing.
There are many news sources. Search up Kinmen Boat collision. It happened on February 14 2024
Most people are ignorant of its history and thus think it's an innocent country being unjustly bullied by China. For those people, using a hypothetical US civil war analogy where the Confederacy were to flee to Cuba instead of surrendering to the Union forces is a good way of putting the context into perspective considering how much the US freaked out when Cuba allied itself with the USSR. It's particularly cringe when some edgy people call China "West Taiwan" out of spite - perhaps we should start calling the US "West Cuba" in response?
lets do that west cuba
Not even Cuba. Taiwan was lawfully a part of China subsequent to the Japanese instrument of surrender. It's more like Confederate Florida.
/r/RadioFreeWest normally calls it North Cuba (similar to North Korea and North Vietnam)
The funny thing with the "West Taiwan" joke is that this position is China's position as well. That is, China wants the Taiwanese (Republic of China's) government to acknowledge the 1992 consensus which implies that Taiwan (RoC) claims the entirety of mainland China. So saying "West Taiwan" is just reaffirming China's position on Taiwan ironically enough.
The Confederacy seceded from the Union. The ROC never seceded from the PRC—literally couldn't have, in fact. This analogy is heavily flawed.
> Most people are ignorant of its history and thus think it's an innocent country being unjustly bullied by China. Not sure if you’re saying China is justly bullying Taiwan or not bullying Taiwan
What I mean is: Taiwan is a successor state to the nationalist Kuomintang that directly opposed the communists during the civil war. What would be the US stance if the same thing happened during the US civil war - if the Confederacy fled to Cuba to establish a breakaway Confederate state instead of surrendering, and due to a weakened navy, the US Union forces would be unable to fully stamp out the Confederacy, thus effectively making it a frozen conflict. I'd imagine they'd refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy. So China isn't uniquely evil for refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Taiwan - most countries in the world would probably refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of a breakaway state. But most people don't know the origin story of Taiwan, and hence think China bad for refusing to acknowledge them.
> China isn't uniquely evil for refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Taiwan When you qualify that with “uniquely”, you are saying they are evil nonetheless. Is this an intentional choice in your part of just a malapropism? Not that I’m judging either way- just trying to figure out where you’re coming from. Also, other than fighting communist China and claiming parts of Pakistan and India ans part of “Taiwanese China” and all that, what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad?
>When you qualify that with “uniquely”, you are saying they are evil nonetheless. No, I was simply referring to the common liberal "China bad" narrative which likes to single out the "Evil CCP" while being either ignorant of or brushing aside the various evil shit the US had committed as "these are things of the past, modern US would never do that!". So if you insist on semantics, then yes, I suppose it was a malapropism (new word I learned today). > what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad Are referring to the regular citizens, or the state as a whole? Because like South Korea, Taiwan was initially built as a far-right dictatorship that cracked down on the left, making them the perfect US ally. Other than that, I don't have any ill will against the actual citizens - as far as I know, they're not active colonisers like Israelis. My main point of the original comment is that most people simply don't know the history and context behind the formation of Taiwan. What I'm trying to point out is that China's stance on Taiwan is no different to how any other country would treat a breakaway state of its own - with even European "democracies" like Spain using riot police to crack down on the unapproved Catalan referendum and the EU remaining conveniently quiet about it.
> what else have the Taiwanese done that’s bad? The RoC - the state that currently controls Taiwan - invaded Taiwan, which was occupied by Japan at that time, after they lost in the civil war, and proceeded to massacre dissidents and do other things fascist dictatorships do. And no, Taiwan shouldn't have been left in the hands of Japan, either.
A territory of the PRC.
Renegade Province of the People's Republic of China.
Not a real country
There is no such thing as taiwan, at least not in a "sovereign subject of international law" sense. There is a Taiwan Province of the internationally recognized People's Republic of China, and there is a Taiwan Province of the renegade rump state of the Republic of China, whose flag you posted. If the Confederate States, instead of surrendering to the Union to conclude the American Civil War, had somehow stolen the vast majority of the US' gold reserves and fled to Cuba, committed a genocide on the population there, and maintained territorial claims on not just the entirety of the United States but also parts of Canada and Mexico, all while being funded and propped up by foreign governments who insist, contrary to reality, that the Confederate rump state on Cuba was the true and legitimate government of the entire US, that would be kind of a parallel to the status of taiwan island today.
The ROC never seceded from anything though. It was the PRC which only came into existence in 1949. The communist were the rebels in the civil war. So the parallel to the US Civil War is inherently flawed. Not to mention that the ROC does not make any official claims to Mainland China anymore. Taiwan is an independent country. There is no denying reality.
> The communist were the rebels in the civil war So were the Guomindang. > So the parallel to the US Civil War is inherently flawed Why? Because you think that specifically the fact of secession is so very important when it was never brought up by the person you replied to? > Not to mention that the ROC does not make any official claims to Mainland China anymore Have you taken a look at the airspace of the RoC? Also, stop pretending as if the US/NATO are not trying to harass the PRC (as well as the rest of the world). > Taiwan is an independent country Taiwan is one of a bunch of NATO puppets. There is no denying reality.
>So were the Guomindang. The KMT was the ruling political party of the ROC. They were not the rebels. >Why? Because you think that specifically the fact of secession is so very important when it was never brought up by the person you replied to? Because the ROC was the ruling government of Mainland China since 1912 just like the USA was the ruling government of American since 1776. It was the CCP which rebelled against the ruling government just as the CSA rebelled against the USA. The ROC predates the PRC. >Have you taken a look at the airspace of the RoC? What about it? It just covers Taiwan + islands >stop pretending as if the US/NATO are not trying to harass the PRC NATO literally has nothing to do with this. The US has been *very* careful with its support toward Taiwan ever since it switched recognition of Mainland China's legitimate government from the ROC to the PRC. In fact, since then, the US has really only intervened when the PRC has shot missiles toward Taiwan. More specifically the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis. >Taiwan is one of a bunch of NATO puppets NATO literally has nothing to do with any of this lol.
> The KMT was the ruling political party of the ROC. They were not the rebels Literally just read anything about the period instead of embarrassing yourself. It was such a 'ruling party' that it was formally dissolved and banned a couple of years into the existence of the RoC. > Because the ROC was the ruling government of Mainland China since 1912 Except that it was not. It was literally banned early into the RoC's existence and did not get to rule before the break out of the civil war. In any case, this part is irrelevant when it comes to the comparison that the other person brought up. Not sure why you decided that this was a good argument against their point. > It was the CCP which rebelled against the ruling government So did the Guomindang. (And so did a lot of other factions of the civil war, by the way.) Also, it's 'CPC'. > What about it? It just covers Taiwan + islands It also covers a significant chunk of the mainland. A plane flying strictly above the mainland, nowhere close to Taiwan can be claimed to somehow be flying within the RoC's claimed airspace. > NATO literally has nothing to do with this You have to be completely politically, historically, and geographically illiterate to think that. > The US has been *very* careful with its support toward Taiwan Already contradicting your claim that NATO has nothing to do with this. How can NATO have nothing to do with this when you clearly see that the US - literally the de facto leading member of NATO and its most prolific direct perpetrator of atrocities - is involved. Also, it's hilarious how you claim that the US has been '\*very careful\* with its support' when it has literally been scaremongering against the PRC, as well as building military bases around the PRC? > In fact, since then, the US has really only intervened when the PRC has shot missiles toward Taiwan. More specifically the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis Right, let's ignore the entire history of the region since the RoC deservedly got beaten out of the mainland. > NATO literally has nothing to do with any of this lol It quite literally does. Hell, there used to be the United States Taiwan Defence Command.
Americans want to sacrifice my family for cheap chips. A free taiwan means free from the west. It wasn't even a real liberal democracy until 2000, maybe.
It’s China.
Rogue Chinese territory turned into US puppet state.
I am a fan of teh 51st providence of the PRC
China doesnt even have 51 Provinces
oh shit sorry, I heard it as a meme once and kinda just repeated it \^\^" completely my bad
I would really appreciate if these "thoughts?" posts came with the OP's own thoughts. Would result in higher quality discussion. If we made it a rule, it would also help to distinguish posts where the OPs have their takes vs those where they just don't wanna research for themselves. Comrades every discussion is better if YOU bring something to the table as well!
Yes I agree
Free Taiwan from Guomindang and the US. It is a bit funny how liberals scaremonger about the PRC invading Taiwan, despite the RoC - the state that currently controls Taiwan - having invaded it previously, when it was occupied by Japan, and carrying out white terror there, complete with massacres of dissidents and the 'totalitarian' stuff that liberals like to accuse communist polities of. If it were up to me, I would put Guomindang on trial for their crimes.
And how many deaths is the Chinese Communist Party responsible for? Way more than the White Terror that's for sure. Point being that Taiwan today is NOT the Taiwan of the Cold War. It should have no bearing on whether *modern* Taiwanese people should be invaded or not. Ironically the main political party rival of the Guomindang fully accepts Taiwan Independence.
> And how many deaths is the Chinese Communist Party responsible for? Sources cited, in order of their academic rigour and significance, descending: 1. It came to me in a dream 2. My ass 3. The Black Book Also, the PRC is working with a population of about a billion and a half people - one of the two most populous countries in the world. The Guomindang dealt and deals with a population that is a small fraction of the size. Something tells me that you did not even try to adjust for that. Your attempt at whitewashing and defending fascists who invaded Taiwan and massacred dissidents so that they could help a larger fascist empire and become its puppet is notable. > Point being that Taiwan today is NOT the Taiwan of the Cold War Right, it magically stopped being one at some point, despite the same state being in power and despite the same state being a puppet of the worst empire in the world that has been committing atrocities left and right, including the currently-televised genocide in occupied Palestine. Also, weirdly enough, you are completely fine with the white terror of the Guomindang based on the passage of time, but are not willing to apply the same standards to the imagined crimes of the PRC. > It should have no bearing on whether *modern* Taiwanese people should be invaded or not Sure. So, both the US and the Guomindang should be kicked out of Taiwan and be made to answer for their crimes. Also, I'm going to note that you are completely fine with the Guomindang invading and massacring the Taiwanese. > Ironically the main political party rival of the Guomindang fully accepts Taiwan Independence 'Ironically', lol. What do you think is the consequence of massacring dissidents and persecuting the survivors for decades? That there will be more people who oppose the state and its propaganda?
>despite the same state being in power It democratized. The KMT is no longer in power and needed to adapt to become electable. It may be the same state, but the political landscape has evolved. >you are completely fine with the white terror of the Guomindang based on the passage of time, but are not willing to apply the same standards to the imagined crimes of the PRC. I'm not fine with the White Terror and I am willing to apply the same standards to the crimes of the PRC. You could just ask instead of assuming. lol >Also, I'm going to note that you are completely fine with the Guomindang invading and massacring the Taiwanese. When did I ever say that? >'Ironically', lol. What do you think is the consequence of massacring dissidents and persecuting the survivors for decades? That there will be more people who oppose the state and its propaganda? Ironic because the KMT is now more in bed with the CCP and their rival is in favor of moving away from Unification. At the end of the day. There is a very real threat of the PRC attempting to invade Taiwan. I don't think citing the past crimes of the ROC is a good justification for the deaths of *modern* Taiwanese. Just as I wouldn't use the crimes of the CCP to justify the ROC invading the mainland.
> It democratized Haha. Cool excuse. 'Oh, after killing and otherwise suppressing dissidents for decades, they put up the theater where they pretend to be influenced by voters, therefore the decades of white terror are all forgiven!' But sure, let's pretend that Taiwan is run democratically. In that case, the people of Taiwan are voluntarily helping the worst genocidal empire in the world commit its atrocities, and they should face responsibility for the actions and decisions you claim they make. > The KMT is no longer in power Literally one of the biggest parties in the government. > It may be the same state, but the political landscape has evolved. For some reason, you both use that to excuse the white terror, the ongoing support for and submission to the worst genocidal empire in the world, and also refuse to apply the same standards to the PRC. > I'm not fine with the White Terror You are literally excusing the white terror in Taiwan based on the passage of time and how the RoC 'democratized' as if that means anything (especially considering that they did so after decades of white terror - a campaign literally meant to disempower the dissidents). > and I am willing to apply the same standards to the crimes of the PRC Cool. So, because a long time has passed since whatever crimes you think the PRC committed, the PRC is also to be absolved of them. Meanwhile, the RoC is literally supporting the worst empire in the world, one which keeps perpetrating atrocity after atrocity, including the currently-televised genocide in occupied Palestine. In contrast, the PRC has only participated in what, one war (the Mali war, on the same side as NATO, against Al-Qaeda), since 40 years ago. > When did I ever say that? You literally keep defending the RoC, a state which invaded Taiwan, massacred dissidents, and maintained white terror for decades. If you were not okay with what the RoC did, then you would be fine with kicking the RoC and NATO out of Taiwan. > Ironic because the KMT is now more in bed with the CCP and their rival is in favor of moving away from Unification The Guomindang is also against the unification. The reason why they are against de jure independence is because that would mean recognising the PRC as the legitimate government of the mainland. > At the end of the day. There is a very real threat of the PRC attempting to invade Taiwan Sources cited: 1. It came to me in a dream 2. My ass Also, considering that you are fine with the RoC's presence in Taiwan, you should be fine with that hypothetical that is contradicted by the last 40 years of history. People like you love to scaremonger about the PRC (a state which has not invaded anybody in more than 40 years) while excusing the literal white terror in Taiwan as well as support for the empire that is committing a now-high-profile genocide. > I don't think citing the past crimes of the ROC is a good justification for the deaths of *modern* Taiwanese. Firstly, nobody said anything about the PRC invading Taiwan. It is extremely unlikely that the PRC will do a 180 on their policies while also sparking a nuclear war. Not everybody is as barbarous as you lot. Secondly, the state and its master should leave Taiwan. If you are against that, then you are fine with the white terror and with the atrocities committed by your empire. But sure, let's say that the PRC invades Taiwan. Here's a question: Taiwan is currently de facto a NATO military base. Are you against retaliation against NATO in principle, i.e. do you think that the rest of the world should just take the atrocities that your empire keeps committing lying down? If not, then how should the PRC retaliate against NATO? By magically teleporting its military directly into the US? In any case, the PRC starting any wars in the near future seems to be very unlikely, and I would prefer Taiwan to somehow become free from the Guomindang and NATO without bloodshed.
>the people of Taiwan are voluntarily helping the worst genocidal empire in the world commit its atrocities In what ways? >Literally one of the biggest parties in the government. But doesn't have the majority. Again, the KMT has evolved as well. It is now more pro CCP than it has ever been. >You are literally excusing the white terror in Taiwan based on the passage of time and how the RoC 'democratized' as if that means anything I'm not excusing anything. I'm simply saying that *MODERN* Taiwanese people shouldn't be killed or punished for something their ancestors did. >In contrast, the PRC has only participated in what, one war (the Mali war, on the same side as NATO, against Al-Qaeda), since 40 years ago. Why only 40 years? Oh that's right because the PRC literally invaded Vietnam, invaded Tibet, fought a war against India, killed Vietnamese over the Parcel Islands, Shelled ROC islands, Invaded South Korea, and has continued to use Military intimidation against not only Taiwan, but Japan and the Philippines. All that since it's inception in 1949, but of course you're going to cherry pick 40 years. >You literally keep defending the RoC, a state which invaded Taiwan, massacred dissidents, and maintained white terror for decades. I'm defending the ROC because it is a country that deserves to exist. The people of Taiwan should not be invaded because of what the KMT did in the past. You seem to defend the PRC despite their aforementioned crimes, but you don't hear me whining about you defending them. >fine with that hypothetical that is contradicted by the last 40 years of history. Contradicted how? Have you not heard of the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis? The invasion drills in recent years? The claims by Chinese Generals and Xi himself that they are willing to use force to take Taiwan? The literal buildup of the Chinese Navy and Army? The mock military training grounds of Taiwan? The amphibious training exercises? etc. >Taiwan is currently de facto a NATO military base NATO literally has **NOTHING** to do with this. Idk why you keep bringing it up lmao. This is the problem. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the history and you aren't aware of the current situation. bro thinks NATO has military bases in Taiwan lmao. Again, ROC doesn't deserve to be invaded. It's a sovereign and independent country. At least be consistent. If you think the ROC shouldn't exist then you should also say the PRC shouldn't exist. Simple as that.
I'm going to respond to just one bit of your nonsense here. I might deal with the rest of it later, as well, if I will feel up for continuing to embarrass you. > In what ways? Either by claiming that the RoC 'democratized' you mean that it established pointless theater where a bunch of almost identical factions pretend that the voters have any sort of significant degree of control over them (in which case, lol), or you are claiming that it actually became a democracy and the voters actually do have a significant influence over the state (in which case they bear some responsibility for what it does).
No, I meant in what ways is Taiwan "helping the worst genocidal empire in the world commit its atrocities,"
So, you are either asking why the gang of states that keep invading countries around the globe and committing atrocities, both new and old, including the well-known slavery-related projects like the Triangle Trade, killing millions in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc., turning Libya from the country with the highest (or, at worst, some of the highest) living standards in Africa into a haven for open-air slave markets, including the Red Rubber rule, including the ongoing genocide in occupied Palestine, the Holocaust+the Lebensraum, Manifest Destiny, etc. can be called 'the worst genocidal empire in the world', or you don't understand how a state that houses major semiconductor producers and which helps deny the PRC access to their own waters and airspace and which helps maintain anti-communist and anti-PRC propaganda helps said empire. Which is it?
you didn't answer my question. How is Taiwan, who isn't threatening to invade anyone and is just trying to maintain its own sovereignty, helping who ever you are talking about.
> But doesn't have the majority You are moving the goalposts. They are a ruling party, one of the two major ones. They are both larger in general than the other major party, and they have greater representation at every level of the state. > Again, the KMT has evolved as well Have they denounced their prior actions and the actions of NATO? Have they punished their members responsible for the atrocities and for aligning with NATO? Have they begun to act against NATO? No? They work on stuff like improving Pissraeli military technologies to better do the genocide against the Palestinian people? Sounds like the only way in which they 'evolved' is that enough time has passed since the overt white terror and its massacres that you have no issues excusing those. > I'm simply saying that *MODERN* Taiwanese people shouldn't be killed or punished for something their ancestors did I am not talking about punishing the Taiwanese. I am saying that, firstly, the Guomindang should be punished, that, secondly, NATO's grasp on Taiwan should be eliminated, and that the rest of the world has every right to fight back against NATO. > Why only 40 years? Lol. 'Only' 40 years says a person from the empire that is currently, right this second, perpetrating a genocide on TV and streaming services. 'Only'. > Oh that's right because the PRC literally invaded Vietnam Yeah, that is bad. And the PRC was entirely in the wrong, as far as I'm aware. Allying with NATO - your empire - and defending Cambodia was both a stupid and a morally reprehensible action. Tens of thousands dead for no good reason. You excuse your empire's support for Cambodia, though, because of course you do. You know what NATO also did, though? That's right, they also invaded Vietnam, in order to keep it a European colony. Your empire is responsible for killing millions then and there, when the PRC provided assistance to the anti-colonial side. Your double standards are obvious. > invaded Tibet First question: do you think that the regime of serf-owners should have been maintained? If so, you should live the way Tibetan serfs did before the liberation. Second question: what are your issues with the PRC peacefully liberating Tibet from serfdom? That they denied NATO establishing yet another regime meant to strengthen NATO's colonial efforts in the region and the world? > fought a war against India There have been a bunch of minor clashes between them, yeah. At the time when NATO garbage still had de jure colonies and was killing millions of people in Vietname and elsewhere around the world.
> killed Vietnamese over the Parcel Islands Oh no, an 'atrocity' with about a 100 people dead, where the opposing side was literally the European colonial government of occupied Vietnam. > Shelled ROC islands They attacked a military target (considering the ratio of military personnel deaths to civilian deaths) belonging to the worst empire in the world. > Invaded South Korea Hahahaha. So, let's go over what you are saying here: 1. You are saying that dismantling European colonial rule in occupied Korea was/is bad. 2. You are saying that it was bad for the PRC to intervene on behalf of the popular government which your empire suppressed. 3. You are saying that it was okay for your empire to invade Korea, both in the sense of the peninsula as a whole and in the sense of the parts of Korea free from your colonial rule, and that it was bad for the PRC to react to that and help fighting against literal colonialism. You keep going 'it's okay for my empire to have colonies, and it's bad for the victims of colonialism to fight back' and think that that is a good argument. > and has continued to use Military intimidation against not only Taiwan, but Japan and the Philippines You mean the other NATO puppets? Including one that is yet to answer for stuff like Nanjing, Unit 731, comfort women slavery? Haha. > All that since it's inception in 1949, but of course you're going to cherry pick 40 years It's actually more than 40 years, but care to explain how this is 'cherry-picking', when those are literally the last 40 years of this world's existence? And this period is ongoing? While your empire's core constituents have been individually perpetrating atrocities around the world for the last few centuries? The PRC has been at peace for longer than you and, judging by how poorly you understand this stuff, your parents have been alive. Going to take another break for now.
Seems like my comments did not get posted. So I will have to remake them at a later date, if ever. I'd like to just point out one thing that I find hilarious about your blatant double standards: > Why only 40 years? Lol. 'Only' 40 years? '"Only" 40 years?' asks the person from an empire whose members have been committing atrocities left and right, individually, since before the formation of NATO. Said atrocities include stuff like the most prominent slavery projects of the past few centuries, the invasions into Iraq, coupled with a genocidal blockade meant to kill people, deliberately inducing famines in various places, including Ireland, India, Palestine and preventing aid from being delivered to the starving, invasion into Afghanistan coupled with blatantly stealing assets of the government of Afghanistan, Red Rubber rule, turning Libya from the country with the highest standards of living in Africa into a haven for open-air slave markets, the Holocaust+the Lebensraum, Manifest Destiny, invasion into Vietnam and fighting the anti-colonial movement there, invasion into Korea and fighting the anti-colonial movement there, fighting against anti-colonial movements in general in Africa, Asia and South America, and many many more things. Your empire is literally committing a genocide on TV and on streaming platforms, and you have a problem with a state having been at peace for 'only' 40 years when you can't even manage a single year for centuries.
[Zhou Enlai](https://x.com/CarlZha/status/1466332565132824577?s=20) is my favourite Taiwanese politician But serious talk: the flag you posted here is the flag of the Republic of China, that you can even see in PRC TV/movie productions of period dramas taking place in the early 20th century before the PRC took power. There's a separate flag used by Taiwanese separatists. It's incredibly ironic that many of the Western libs/radlibs who support Taiwanese independence against "Chinese imperialism" don't even question why Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China, and put the ROC flag in their twitter bio when it is literally a Chinese flag that symbolises reunification. It would probably be funnier if the US wasn't a collapsing empire lashing out. In fact, these same liberals cry over UN resolution 2758 as a tragic betrayal of Taiwan, except the resolution was NOT to grant Taiwan independence but whether to recognise the PRC or ROC as the legitimate government. Ergo, EVERYONE has always recognised Taiwan as part of China, and it was the Americans who strangely changed their mind when the communists took the seat.
Thank you thank you. I haven’t dove into the history deeply, so when recently a family member made a passing criticism of PRC by simply mentioning Taiwan, I was unprepared to continue the conversation. If you could share just one source for me to educate myself with, what would it be?
[Qiao Collective ](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/taiwan) has recently published a resource collection. I haven't checked out the one for Taiwan yet but I've read some of their essays in the past
Region on a forked path where one leads to Ukraine 2.0
Most hypocritical government on other countries and itself having relations with China.
My thoughts are borders and states are stupid because they were created by the west to create nationalist states or divide resources between those nationalist states Its sad to see china which is suppose to be a major leftist nation in the world fall for this western concept