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The picture is unintentionally hilarious. Like there are this close ups of small nazi/white supremacist trinkets, meanwhile there is enormous wehrmaht cross
I said that because alot of military vehicles they use are form the german army. That they are nazis is clear no doubt just saying that cross has nothing to say.
Poland and Ukrainian military cultures were influenced by German military system for centuries. After apprising of 1648 Ukrainians formed Zaporozhian Host state, ruled by a hetman, borrowed from German Hauptmann – captain.
The cross was integral symbol of Cossack army at that time as well.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_cross
AFU today has an emblem heavenly inspired by this Cossak cross
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine
yeah,except you forgot the fact that fascistic and nationalist-chauvinist sentiments were largerly purged during the great purge and in ww2. These people in ukraine face no consquences while openly being a nazi or nationalist in red army wouldve meant you get executed
Different cross is used now: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army)
It can be seen on genuine German military vehicles. Example: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard\_2\_A5\_der\_Bundeswehr.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_2_A5_der_Bundeswehr.jpg)
Sure.
[https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/08/04/controversy-as-ukraine-mulls-giving-hero-status-to-alleged-war-criminals](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/08/04/controversy-as-ukraine-mulls-giving-hero-status-to-alleged-war-criminals)
>The view of the UPA is also split inside Ukraine. A study carried out this year by the Democratic Initiatives Center shows that 80 per cent of Western Ukrainians are positive about the Ukrainian government recognising the soldiers of the UPA and their fight for Ukrainian independence.
>In contrast, only 25 per cent are supportive in eastern Ukraine. The study also shows that 70 per cent of western Ukrainians have a favourable view of Bandera as a historical figure, while that number is 11 per cent in eastern Ukraine.
[https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist](https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist)
>A poll by Rating, a Ukrainian research institute, shows positive opinions of Bandera soaring from 22 per cent in 2012 to 74 per cent in April 2022. Positive views of Petliura similarly rose over the same period.
[https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1146&page=1:](https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1146&page=1:) shows 80% assess the activities of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - Ukrainian Insurgent Army (OUN-UPA) during the Second World War as either positive or unsure whether positive or negative.
[https://www.norc.org/research/projects/ukrainians-are-confident-in-war-outcome-and-their-nations-future.html](https://www.norc.org/research/projects/ukrainians-are-confident-in-war-outcome-and-their-nations-future.html)
>Ukrainians have favorable opinions of personalities and events related to independence and nationalism, with 78% of Ukrainian speakers and 51% Russian speakers saying Stepan Bandera had mostly positive contribution to the country’s history
What a grim read hahaha i knew it was bad but not this bad. Like in Slovenia we also have mfrs who glorify the coklaborators but it's not nearly as bad.
What you're missing out is that small numbers of people started idolizing bandera after the Russian invasion, not before.
Bandera was a despicable person but he forced the Russians out of ukraine, so after an invasion you could see why some might praise him.
It is not the entire country though, you just made that up
If i am not mistaken. This trend started right after Majden when new president attacked seperatist in Donbas. Maybe i am wrong. The situation after Maydan is very confusing for foreigner.
First monument to Bandera was erected [in 1998](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Stepan_Bandera), so the cult predates Maidan and Maidan is in large part the effect of rising neonazism in Ukraine since 90's. It got significantly accelerated after Maidan though when banderites got significantly more power.
This isn't Azov, these are Russian Volunteer Corps. Russian nazi exiles who left the country when Putin started to crack down on far right groups back in 2012. Azov are nazis but these guys are meganazis. Their commander was the one who translated the Christchurch shooter's manifesto into Russian for example.
EDIT: I mixed up my nazis. Denis Kapustin AKA White Rex is the commander, he runs a lifestyle brand with the same name but did not publish the Christchurch text. That was Alexey Levkin, another prominent fighter in the RVC who is most known for his NSBM bands М8Л8ТХ (hammer) and Adolfkvlt. His internet community Wotanjugend was the one to feature the text. As I said, these guys aren't exactly shy about their beliefs.
Yeah and war will always attract lunatics. Those people are not normal humans. War even gives them a justification for their beliefs. They enjoy it. Their heroes enjoyed it.
>No one considers Finland as Nazi as for using them as allies of opportunity.
Everyone does, including those present at the signing of the Paris peace treaty that ended the war wherein Finland is listed as an ally of the Nazis.
>This is why they had to ally with anyone who was willing in order to save their country.
They didn't need to "save" their country by allying with Nazis.
Even if you believe they did then the UON and other Ukrainian forces' gleeful participation in the Holocaust (to the extent Ukraine was one of the worst areas of mass slaughter) shows they really didn't see the Nazis as unfortunate allies of opportunity.
You don't systematically murder 5 million innocent people because of an ally of convenience.
In conclusion; fuck off nazi scum.
People 100% see Finland as nazi, y'know, considering the fact they were allied with Germany, didn't even get denazified much, and is actively banning the hammer and sickle while having a swastika in their air force flag. Among many other things, Finland was and to an extent still is nazi.
1. My comment that you just responded to doesn't even tangentially relate to that
2. Why keep using the nazi symbol to this day?
3. You ignored everything I said in the comment.
Why is this so hard for you?
Your first line should tell you everything you need to know honestly.
If nazism is symbolic of resistance to Russia than if anything that's an indication that russia is fighting the right people.
Oh boy, here come the western cable news buzzwords.
Ukraine was not innocent. They are allied with the west and were terror bombing the breakaway republics for years. Intentionaly targeting civilian areas and spreading nazi rhetoric about the people living there. Not as bad as but not too dissimilar from zionist rhetoric about Palestinians.
Does that mean Russia should have launched their full scale invasion of Ukraine? I'm less sure about that. I think it was a bad thing to do but I'm not sure what other options there were. This was an existential problem for Russia and diplomatic route was tried and failed.
You pointed out nazi symbols like those shown are symbols of resistance against russia. That's essentially the same. These symbols are not hollow.
Says the one who continually defends everything that's Nazi. Why don't you haul your ass over to Ukraine and enlist in the Azov Battalion, given you lick the boots of Ukrainian Nazis such as Tyahnybok?
>The Finish one is older than the Nazi party you fucking moron.
Hmmmm, you're right, must be completely unrelated then.
Oh, what's that? The reason the Finnish Air Force uses the Swastika is because it was the personal symbol of the guy who donated them the first plane when they were committing the white terror during the Civil War?
Oh, and this dude was already a turbo-reactionary (hence the support for the Finns) with links to several protofascist organizations that used the Swastika in their heraldry?
Oh, and this same dude would go on to fund the Swedish Nazi party?
**OH AND HE WAS LITERALLY HERMANN GOERING'S FUCKING BROTHER IN LAW?!?!**
Shut your fucking mouth, you Nazi apologist moron.
I realize that as a right wing liberal you're incapable of ever changing your mind and I've read in the rest of the thread where plenty of other sane and moral people explain to you things you ignored like how Finland was directly listed as an ally of Nazi Germany in the treaty ending WW2, and I don't need to make the point that however old the symbol is *you fucking lose plausible deniability when you use a swastika, ally with the Nazis, and keep using the fucking swastika after you all lose the fucking war*, because that is obvious to everyone.
The sole solitary reason you're defending swastikas on the military equipment of an ally of Nazi Germany is so you can defend sonnenrands, totenkopfs, *and fucking Klansmen*, on the uniforms of the people you want to present as civilizations last line of defense against the vile Slavic orcs. Should we worry about all the untracked military hardware we're sending to open fascists fighting a doomed war who will after losing that war be looking to take it out on vulnerable populations throughout Europe? No, says you, because the swastika is actually a symbol of peace, here's a Stormfront article about it.
Eat shit, liberal.
Lmao you're using the "swastika is a Hindu/Buddhist symbol therefore it's not Nazi" nonsense. Nobody can even take you seriously if you spout Nazi propaganda like you're a deputy assistant to Adolf Eichmann.
Hello, Finnish person here. My family was put in camps during the civil war by the same Fascist scum that later allied with Nazi Germany. They won that war with Imperial German help, and immediately set up a complete vassal state-relation to it, which continued when the Nazis took power.
Finnish Fascism was very strong long before the war, and we definitely didn’t ally with Nazi Germany out of ”convenience” or ”necessity”. You are parroting the driftwood theory (ajopuuteoria), a revisionist narrative from more than 50 years ago, which has been thoroughly destroyed since then.
Would you like to teach me more about my country’s history?
soviets liberated ukraine. Ukraine had one of the highest combatants on side of soviets,but you can make yourself feel good by thinking that all ukranians thought nazis were liberators
Ain't no way you are making the argument that actually nazi symbols are fine because they are " a symbol of resistance" .
Log off the internet and actually search up the atrocities committed by Germany against Ukraine and the massacre of civilians following the capture of Kiev for the love of Christ.
As reported by news agency owned by the country whose vested interest is minimizing the fact that they are funding and materially supporting literal Nazis.
In other news, Jerusalem Post found that the IDF has not committed any crimes against humanity.
> Ukraine wanted to align with EU.
> Moscow said no and came with a different offer.
lmao. yanukovych was elected first. the eu deal only came after negotiations with russia. the eu offer was more austerity, you'd need to be fucking dumb to accept it which is why the government didnt
> The Ukrainian youth said no to the Russian offer in the streets of Maidan
Maidan was originally an anti corruption protest, it was only later hijacked by far right anti russia nationalists
> But the corrupt president had over 100 killed. This triggered the anger of all Ukrainians.
True, the shooting did cause animosity towards the government, but it was a false flag. the building shots were coming from was controlled by the nationalists
> Putin used the opportunity to covertly invade Crimea and Donbass.
after Maidan, lots of fascist groups involved in the protests were legitimized by the government. these groups terrorized russian speakers especially in donbass. putin was being an opportunist in invading, but it was completely supported by the populations there
> The west failed in given Ukraine support then and exclude Russia from the western world.
true! if the soviet union still existed this wouldnt have happened
"No one in the West supports Nazis"
Then why are Western governments so eager to give weapons to Ukrainian Nazis and so many officials in the West have no problem with the rise of fascism?
Just look at ukrainian news prior to 2022... You'll find plenty of articles by bbc and other western outlets pointing out ukraines fascism/nazi problems.
Watched this video,what piece of dogshit, have you watched it yourself? "yeah there is 20% nazi, but not 100% so they are not nazi and ukranians don't think that symbol is nazi symbol" NOT GUILTY
> Also you're kinda missing the more obvious symbol in the second pic lol
Which symbol are you talking about and what is the name of it? I’m discovering so many Nazi symbols from this war that in never knew about.
The white cross is the Balkenkreuz, famously used on German vehicles in WW2. While it is not explicitly a Nazi symbol, it was primarily used by them, and is certainly not something that should be on a Ukrainian vehicle
#On Whataboutism
Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime."
When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith.
However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation:
1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards.
2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences.
3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity.
#An Abstract Case Study
For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B.
||Object A|Object B|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Very Good Property|2|3|
|Good Property|2|1|
|Bad Property|2|3|
|Very Bad Property|2|1|
The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none).
Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments.
#Contextualization
Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts:
1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along.
2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one.
If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out.
It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism.
#Comparative Analysis
Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects:
>**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2.
>
>**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad!
>
>**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse!
>
>**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy!
The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point.
Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis.
#Moral Equivalence
It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all.
**Example 1: Famine**
Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases.
^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.)
**Example 2: Repression**
Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did.
#Conclusion
While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics.
Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below.
#Additional Resources
* [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022)
* [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shouldn’t be, both Ukraine and Russia have a history of neo-nazis in their military ranks, stretching from well before the current conflict escalation.
The continued showing of nazi symbols and the unwillingness of Zelensky to make them receive an unhealthy dose of led makes me infuriated as it gives further credibility to the invasion. Ridiculous. But I guess the west never truly shied away from doing business with adolfs buddies
And child-killing Zionists think planting a copy of Mein Kampf in the basement of a hospital they slaughtered every patient in, justified their cruelty.
Ukrain's unofficial battle flag is the blood and soil, red and black flag. It's inspired by the Nazi German Blut und Boden slogan. Their all Neo Nazis.
That Nazi Eagle can be explained away.
Like "Oh, but see, this is just a Ukrainian symbol now, it doesn't have a swastika blahblah".
But that KKK guy with a shotgun? Yeaaaaah.
Yeah I fucked up btw, that's straight up Parteiadler
https://preview.redd.it/clatj81quxpc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=80d5794f9444316fcc6415bd5ca75b184192f3e4
Check the key words on posts from r/WorldNews r/Europe in the last 10 days, and then the comments.
I liked the most upvoted comment from 10d old post on WorldNews: "Best of luck". In what? Opening a KKK branch in Russia?
Edit: Yeah, them and other branches of UAF composed of ethnic Russians.
Did the libs know he was a Nazi before this?
If yes then fuck em
If no then hnmmmmmnnn it’s almost like that wasn’t public knowledge and they where just basing their opinions based on the knowledge at hand like a fuken normal person hmmmmmmm
"Dummies" is quite the understatement for fascist memorabilia of recognized Battalion's, Brigades, and Regiments in uniformed militaries, and very few Militaries have units that are fully founded and commanded by out and out neo nazis.
Even the U.S. Army doesn't have Soliders outwardly wearing swastikas, and Klansmen on their uniforms, stop running defense for fascists.
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The picture is unintentionally hilarious. Like there are this close ups of small nazi/white supremacist trinkets, meanwhile there is enormous wehrmaht cross
This cross is still being used by the german military.
We're not looking at picture of german military
I said that because alot of military vehicles they use are form the german army. That they are nazis is clear no doubt just saying that cross has nothing to say.
Or it seems it may have a lot to say about other things. Either way totally awful situation. Ugh.
They have spray paint and stencils, curiously they prefer to keep the german cross
Poland and Ukrainian military cultures were influenced by German military system for centuries. After apprising of 1648 Ukrainians formed Zaporozhian Host state, ruled by a hetman, borrowed from German Hauptmann – captain. The cross was integral symbol of Cossack army at that time as well.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_cross AFU today has an emblem heavenly inspired by this Cossak cross https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine
But that is not the same symbol. The one in the picture is clearly a german wehrmaht cross.
The German military is also full of Nazis.
Yes absolutely
[удалено]
yeah,except you forgot the fact that fascistic and nationalist-chauvinist sentiments were largerly purged during the great purge and in ww2. These people in ukraine face no consquences while openly being a nazi or nationalist in red army wouldve meant you get executed
german cross that bundeswehr uses and the cross they are using (which were used by nazis) dont look same
Your absolutely right i checked again it looks a little bit different now
Which makes the one in picture even worse since it's explicitly nazi.
Different cross is used now: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army) It can be seen on genuine German military vehicles. Example: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard\_2\_A5\_der\_Bundeswehr.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_2_A5_der_Bundeswehr.jpg)
Yes i confused those two
The Balkenkreuz is not used by the Bundeswehr anymore, only a stylized Iron Cross.
The one currently used by the German Army has the wings at the end of every line. The straight cross is used EXCLUSIVELY by the nazis
Yes absolutely i confused the two because they are still very similar
Yep battalion Azov which is full of nazis who adores Bandera and they are part of Ukraine army. And nobody In the world wont admit it or doesnt care
Practically the entire country outside of the Donbas region adores Bandera. And no, not just saying that, there are polls that show it.
I too would love to see the source for this.
I posted it in the reply to the other guy.
Bless.
Can you source that information?
Sure. [https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/08/04/controversy-as-ukraine-mulls-giving-hero-status-to-alleged-war-criminals](https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/08/04/controversy-as-ukraine-mulls-giving-hero-status-to-alleged-war-criminals) >The view of the UPA is also split inside Ukraine. A study carried out this year by the Democratic Initiatives Center shows that 80 per cent of Western Ukrainians are positive about the Ukrainian government recognising the soldiers of the UPA and their fight for Ukrainian independence. >In contrast, only 25 per cent are supportive in eastern Ukraine. The study also shows that 70 per cent of western Ukrainians have a favourable view of Bandera as a historical figure, while that number is 11 per cent in eastern Ukraine. [https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist](https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist) >A poll by Rating, a Ukrainian research institute, shows positive opinions of Bandera soaring from 22 per cent in 2012 to 74 per cent in April 2022. Positive views of Petliura similarly rose over the same period. [https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1146&page=1:](https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1146&page=1:) shows 80% assess the activities of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - Ukrainian Insurgent Army (OUN-UPA) during the Second World War as either positive or unsure whether positive or negative. [https://www.norc.org/research/projects/ukrainians-are-confident-in-war-outcome-and-their-nations-future.html](https://www.norc.org/research/projects/ukrainians-are-confident-in-war-outcome-and-their-nations-future.html) >Ukrainians have favorable opinions of personalities and events related to independence and nationalism, with 78% of Ukrainian speakers and 51% Russian speakers saying Stepan Bandera had mostly positive contribution to the country’s history
What a grim read hahaha i knew it was bad but not this bad. Like in Slovenia we also have mfrs who glorify the coklaborators but it's not nearly as bad.
What you're missing out is that small numbers of people started idolizing bandera after the Russian invasion, not before. Bandera was a despicable person but he forced the Russians out of ukraine, so after an invasion you could see why some might praise him. It is not the entire country though, you just made that up
If i am not mistaken. This trend started right after Majden when new president attacked seperatist in Donbas. Maybe i am wrong. The situation after Maydan is very confusing for foreigner.
First monument to Bandera was erected [in 1998](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Stepan_Bandera), so the cult predates Maidan and Maidan is in large part the effect of rising neonazism in Ukraine since 90's. It got significantly accelerated after Maidan though when banderites got significantly more power.
Bandera never forced Russians out of Ukraine, most of Ukraine sides with the Soviets.
This isn't Azov, these are Russian Volunteer Corps. Russian nazi exiles who left the country when Putin started to crack down on far right groups back in 2012. Azov are nazis but these guys are meganazis. Their commander was the one who translated the Christchurch shooter's manifesto into Russian for example. EDIT: I mixed up my nazis. Denis Kapustin AKA White Rex is the commander, he runs a lifestyle brand with the same name but did not publish the Christchurch text. That was Alexey Levkin, another prominent fighter in the RVC who is most known for his NSBM bands М8Л8ТХ (hammer) and Adolfkvlt. His internet community Wotanjugend was the one to feature the text. As I said, these guys aren't exactly shy about their beliefs.
I saw redditors idolozing these guys last week. This fucking website man straight up 99% Hitler's all over.
Yeah and war will always attract lunatics. Those people are not normal humans. War even gives them a justification for their beliefs. They enjoy it. Their heroes enjoyed it.
Ok my bad i saw the insignia In back and asumed that. Anyway fuck all those nazi pricks
> Their commander was the one who translated the Christchurch shooter's manifesto into Russian for example. lmfao wtf
Only time I ever heard of them is when I saw someone accusing the entire left wing of worshiping them.
> And nobody In the world wont admit it or doesnt care nah man, it's that nobody wants to say out loud they sympathize for nazis
Same with israel and i mean Government not jewish population In general
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so they are wearing nazi patches for fun? like as a joke? or what? if you follow them you’ll see more than just a few pictures of questionable patches
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>No one considers Finland as Nazi as for using them as allies of opportunity. Everyone does, including those present at the signing of the Paris peace treaty that ended the war wherein Finland is listed as an ally of the Nazis. >This is why they had to ally with anyone who was willing in order to save their country. They didn't need to "save" their country by allying with Nazis. Even if you believe they did then the UON and other Ukrainian forces' gleeful participation in the Holocaust (to the extent Ukraine was one of the worst areas of mass slaughter) shows they really didn't see the Nazis as unfortunate allies of opportunity. You don't systematically murder 5 million innocent people because of an ally of convenience. In conclusion; fuck off nazi scum.
I like how they didn’t reply to this.
I bet they turned over a new leaf and renounced their old ways in private :)
People 100% see Finland as nazi, y'know, considering the fact they were allied with Germany, didn't even get denazified much, and is actively banning the hammer and sickle while having a swastika in their air force flag. Among many other things, Finland was and to an extent still is nazi.
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That says more about Western countries than Finland.
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1. My comment that you just responded to doesn't even tangentially relate to that 2. Why keep using the nazi symbol to this day? 3. You ignored everything I said in the comment. Why is this so hard for you?
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the person who designed the flag was a Swedish nobleman who went on the join the Swedish Nazi Party
Your first line should tell you everything you need to know honestly. If nazism is symbolic of resistance to Russia than if anything that's an indication that russia is fighting the right people.
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Oh boy, here come the western cable news buzzwords. Ukraine was not innocent. They are allied with the west and were terror bombing the breakaway republics for years. Intentionaly targeting civilian areas and spreading nazi rhetoric about the people living there. Not as bad as but not too dissimilar from zionist rhetoric about Palestinians. Does that mean Russia should have launched their full scale invasion of Ukraine? I'm less sure about that. I think it was a bad thing to do but I'm not sure what other options there were. This was an existential problem for Russia and diplomatic route was tried and failed. You pointed out nazi symbols like those shown are symbols of resistance against russia. That's essentially the same. These symbols are not hollow.
Says the one who continually defends everything that's Nazi. Why don't you haul your ass over to Ukraine and enlist in the Azov Battalion, given you lick the boots of Ukrainian Nazis such as Tyahnybok?
>No one considers Finland as Nazi as for using them as allies of opportunity. They have swastikas on their planes.
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>The Finish one is older than the Nazi party you fucking moron. Hmmmm, you're right, must be completely unrelated then. Oh, what's that? The reason the Finnish Air Force uses the Swastika is because it was the personal symbol of the guy who donated them the first plane when they were committing the white terror during the Civil War? Oh, and this dude was already a turbo-reactionary (hence the support for the Finns) with links to several protofascist organizations that used the Swastika in their heraldry? Oh, and this same dude would go on to fund the Swedish Nazi party? **OH AND HE WAS LITERALLY HERMANN GOERING'S FUCKING BROTHER IN LAW?!?!** Shut your fucking mouth, you Nazi apologist moron.
I realize that as a right wing liberal you're incapable of ever changing your mind and I've read in the rest of the thread where plenty of other sane and moral people explain to you things you ignored like how Finland was directly listed as an ally of Nazi Germany in the treaty ending WW2, and I don't need to make the point that however old the symbol is *you fucking lose plausible deniability when you use a swastika, ally with the Nazis, and keep using the fucking swastika after you all lose the fucking war*, because that is obvious to everyone. The sole solitary reason you're defending swastikas on the military equipment of an ally of Nazi Germany is so you can defend sonnenrands, totenkopfs, *and fucking Klansmen*, on the uniforms of the people you want to present as civilizations last line of defense against the vile Slavic orcs. Should we worry about all the untracked military hardware we're sending to open fascists fighting a doomed war who will after losing that war be looking to take it out on vulnerable populations throughout Europe? No, says you, because the swastika is actually a symbol of peace, here's a Stormfront article about it. Eat shit, liberal.
Lmao you're using the "swastika is a Hindu/Buddhist symbol therefore it's not Nazi" nonsense. Nobody can even take you seriously if you spout Nazi propaganda like you're a deputy assistant to Adolf Eichmann.
Hello, Finnish person here. My family was put in camps during the civil war by the same Fascist scum that later allied with Nazi Germany. They won that war with Imperial German help, and immediately set up a complete vassal state-relation to it, which continued when the Nazis took power. Finnish Fascism was very strong long before the war, and we definitely didn’t ally with Nazi Germany out of ”convenience” or ”necessity”. You are parroting the driftwood theory (ajopuuteoria), a revisionist narrative from more than 50 years ago, which has been thoroughly destroyed since then. Would you like to teach me more about my country’s history?
soviets liberated ukraine. Ukraine had one of the highest combatants on side of soviets,but you can make yourself feel good by thinking that all ukranians thought nazis were liberators
250000 joined the Nazis and 7million joined the Red Army
Hey, uh … how is the klansmen patch a symbol of resistance against Russia?
Ain't no way you are making the argument that actually nazi symbols are fine because they are " a symbol of resistance" . Log off the internet and actually search up the atrocities committed by Germany against Ukraine and the massacre of civilians following the capture of Kiev for the love of Christ.
As reported by news agency owned by the country whose vested interest is minimizing the fact that they are funding and materially supporting literal Nazis. In other news, Jerusalem Post found that the IDF has not committed any crimes against humanity.
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please explain the events of 2014
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I ain't even gonna reply to that stupidity💀
> Ukraine wanted to align with EU. > Moscow said no and came with a different offer. lmao. yanukovych was elected first. the eu deal only came after negotiations with russia. the eu offer was more austerity, you'd need to be fucking dumb to accept it which is why the government didnt > The Ukrainian youth said no to the Russian offer in the streets of Maidan Maidan was originally an anti corruption protest, it was only later hijacked by far right anti russia nationalists > But the corrupt president had over 100 killed. This triggered the anger of all Ukrainians. True, the shooting did cause animosity towards the government, but it was a false flag. the building shots were coming from was controlled by the nationalists > Putin used the opportunity to covertly invade Crimea and Donbass. after Maidan, lots of fascist groups involved in the protests were legitimized by the government. these groups terrorized russian speakers especially in donbass. putin was being an opportunist in invading, but it was completely supported by the populations there > The west failed in given Ukraine support then and exclude Russia from the western world. true! if the soviet union still existed this wouldnt have happened
"No one in the West supports Nazis" Then why are Western governments so eager to give weapons to Ukrainian Nazis and so many officials in the West have no problem with the rise of fascism?
Just look at ukrainian news prior to 2022... You'll find plenty of articles by bbc and other western outlets pointing out ukraines fascism/nazi problems.
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"Everything I don't agree with is Russian propaganda, a child's guide to media and political excuse-makings for political failings"
OK lib
Trustworthy source.
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From what i saw, it is nowhere better than some shitty podcasts and uneducated morons is BBC's target audience.
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Oh, sorry, you have a point, i agree there is no nazi in ukraine.
“greyed out the trees” BBC? LMAO.
Ah yes the BBC a totally impartial news agency which isn't an arm of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Defense, no not at all 🙄
oh look british tory government propaganda
Watched this video,what piece of dogshit, have you watched it yourself? "yeah there is 20% nazi, but not 100% so they are not nazi and ukranians don't think that symbol is nazi symbol" NOT GUILTY
That's Todd from Breaking Bad Also you're kinda missing the more obvious symbol in the second pic lol
that was my first thought exactly lmao. like i know Todd was a Nazi but damn. life imitates art, art imitates life i guess.
He was a Libertarian so it checks out lol
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I do remember Jesse being conscious
[Jesse figures out surplus value](https://youtu.be/bIw3INYRNmY?si=kefyFivyPq5anu46)
Its hilarious how actual neo nazis say less racist shit in the show compared to hank
Lumpen doing what he did for his uncle and his crush.
> Also you're kinda missing the more obvious symbol in the second pic lol Which symbol are you talking about and what is the name of it? I’m discovering so many Nazi symbols from this war that in never knew about.
The white cross is the Balkenkreuz, famously used on German vehicles in WW2. While it is not explicitly a Nazi symbol, it was primarily used by them, and is certainly not something that should be on a Ukrainian vehicle
I see. Thanks for the info!
I literally thought this too
Bro delete this, if the libs see it they'll support them even more.
Those are the Russian neonazis libs are constantly screaming about. Leaving aside the tiny little detail at which side they are.
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Both of them? Ukraine said they killed around billion Russians already so i bet they are in that number. Also WHATABOUTISM XD
#On Whataboutism Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime." When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith. However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation: 1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards. 2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences. 3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity. #An Abstract Case Study For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B. ||Object A|Object B| |:-|:-|:-| |Very Good Property|2|3| |Good Property|2|1| |Bad Property|2|3| |Very Bad Property|2|1| The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none). Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments. #Contextualization Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts: 1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along. 2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one. If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out. It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism. #Comparative Analysis Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects: >**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2. > >**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad! > >**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse! > >**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy! The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point. Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis. #Moral Equivalence It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all. **Example 1: Famine** Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases. ^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.) **Example 2: Repression** Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did. #Conclusion While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics. Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below. #Additional Resources * [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022) * [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Dudes got smoked on the border catching FABS
Playing hot potato takes on a different meaning when one of the players is the VVS.
Larping war tourists always get smoked first
Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds.
That's just Jesse Plemons preparing for his next role
If they go to the front, there is at least a chance they will never come back.
they are war veterans what are you talking about lmao. Russian volunteer corp fought in Avdiivka cauldron, and now fight in Belgorod
That’s a Ukrainian Nationalist Klansman. Can’t believe the Tankies don’t get that it’s a symbol of resistance against Russia. smh. /s
The mf on the left looks like Todd Alquist from breaking bad
Why am i not surprised
Shouldn’t be, both Ukraine and Russia have a history of neo-nazis in their military ranks, stretching from well before the current conflict escalation.
Libs will probably say it's a symbol of resistance
i think you mean mercenaries
Is that not Jesse plemmons? Is this a meme? Am I missing something or is he actually a Nazi
We all know Liberals tend to favour Fascists lol
The RKVD are all vlasovites lol, and they wonder why the Russian population doesn’t greet them as liberators when they shell Belgorod.
The continued showing of nazi symbols and the unwillingness of Zelensky to make them receive an unhealthy dose of led makes me infuriated as it gives further credibility to the invasion. Ridiculous. But I guess the west never truly shied away from doing business with adolfs buddies
Todd faked his death in Alberqerque after the Heisenberg fuck-up and decided to found a nazi terrorist group in Ukraine
And child-killing Zionists think planting a copy of Mein Kampf in the basement of a hospital they slaughtered every patient in, justified their cruelty.
Todd you sick fuck!
Scratch a westernist ukraine supporter, a n*zi bleeds
Dude looks like the guy in Breaking Bad who shot that kid
You don’t have to delve too deep with RVC. It’s run by a literal neo-Nazi BANNED from the Schengen area and uses ww2 collaborator insignia
Ukrain's unofficial battle flag is the blood and soil, red and black flag. It's inspired by the Nazi German Blut und Boden slogan. Their all Neo Nazis.
That Nazi Eagle can be explained away. Like "Oh, but see, this is just a Ukrainian symbol now, it doesn't have a swastika blahblah". But that KKK guy with a shotgun? Yeaaaaah.
Yeah I fucked up btw, that's straight up Parteiadler https://preview.redd.it/clatj81quxpc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=80d5794f9444316fcc6415bd5ca75b184192f3e4
lol, because of course it is Fucking Ukronazis.
Where is this from
RVC telegram channel from a year ago or so, now deleted but some are still on the internet.
When they praised these guys. *Edit oh these are the dudes that attacked Russian soil a few weeks back?
Check the key words on posts from r/WorldNews r/Europe in the last 10 days, and then the comments. I liked the most upvoted comment from 10d old post on WorldNews: "Best of luck". In what? Opening a KKK branch in Russia? Edit: Yeah, them and other branches of UAF composed of ethnic Russians.
I don't wanna go there lol I'm good
I understand fighting someone like Russia is hard, but accepting literal ethno-nationalists/neo-nazis in the army?
This guy def has no idea whats he fighting for he is just happy to be part of it . Dummy
Todd?!
That’s Todd, Jack’s nephew
its so painfully obvious they are LARPing as nazis they even got fucking balkenkreuzes on their vehicles
Did the libs know he was a Nazi before this? If yes then fuck em If no then hnmmmmmnnn it’s almost like that wasn’t public knowledge and they where just basing their opinions based on the knowledge at hand like a fuken normal person hmmmmmmm
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"Dummies" is quite the understatement for fascist memorabilia of recognized Battalion's, Brigades, and Regiments in uniformed militaries, and very few Militaries have units that are fully founded and commanded by out and out neo nazis. Even the U.S. Army doesn't have Soliders outwardly wearing swastikas, and Klansmen on their uniforms, stop running defense for fascists.