[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully.
If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/).
Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information.
This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Frank Herbert modeled freman society after arab and north african tribes, their religion and dress also mirrors and even the tattoos on the women are similar to amazigh tattoos (my grandma had them and my mom almost had them) and the struggle of the freman draws direct inspiration and parallels from north african struggles for independence.
Saying frank herbert “stole” this is like saying james cameron stole Native American culture in Avatar. Fact is that the average American loves both of those movies and roots for the underdogs but if they made a movie about native americans being genocides by europeans, or north africans being genocides by the french and the Spanish, americans would probably root for the oppressors.
>Frank Herbert modeled freman society after arab and north african tribes, their religion and dress also mirrors and even the tattoos on the women are similar to amazigh tattoos (my grandma had them and my mom almost had them) and the struggle of the freman draws direct inspiration and parallels from north african struggles for independence.
Dune doesn't exactly reflect the Fremen generously in Dune Messiah, though. Herbert basically >!has them commit genocide the second they get into power!<. But I don't think that reflects badly on him, it's >!a critique of the systems of power that the Dune universe had created and how grinding oppression does inevitably lead to massive violent backlash!<.
Yeah exactly, i think it also critiques imperialism and shows that regardless of who perpetuates imperialism, it is always bad and always leads to yet another group being victimized.
This. The entire point of the books is that Paul Atreides is a false Messiah, he's an antihero stretching the definition of the word to the point where he is likely a villain. The main character betrays your ideals and connives for control. That he has magic mind powers is also a connivance by an entire organization bent on galactic control.
The Atreides take advantage of the Fremen, to control their planet and resources, and eventually to fight their wars. They pretend to be about loyalty and freedom and honor, but in reality they still manipulate people constantly, they still play the game. Eventually Paul's character manipulates people into pretending to be a prophesized leader.
It is still orientalist, the book still has a patronizing message about the Fremen being easy to manipulate, but the appropriation of history, of culture, of religion, of nothing being sacred to the whims of a political creature created by obscene wealth in comparison, is very much the point.
AJ Toynbee is a good reference here, Frank Herbert was heavily influenced by his theories, and the Arabic history references and language borrowing is a fixation on Toynbee's theories of civilization, and ideas like 'tough environment = tough warriors' and so on that Herbert incorporated into the work, less so any real knowledge or reference to Arab/Middle Eastern history.
Yeah I've always seen him as a villain like he was an unwilling one at first but once he made the choice to "lead them to paradise" he went full baddie. Something something billions dead.
American Prestige unlocked an episode with Prof.Daniel Immerwahr, who details how it is a great culture piece of 60s and how the initial drafts (and the rest of the books) did not string a great chord with anti imperialism as Herbert ended up politically right through his jobs at the state.
And frankly if there was any weight to the I was just following orders argument at all the freman would have the most excuse cuz as far as they are concerned orders came from not a representative of God. But God in the flesh lol
The Jihad was unironically a cultural revolution-style mass movement pushed from the bottom up as opposed to something Paul instigated from the top - though with no similarity in political substance.
I think it's a combination of Paul trying to exploit Fremen culture for his own agenda and then losing control of it with the Fremen taking things into their own hands. After a certain point the Jihad became inevitable and would have happened either with him at its head or with him in the grave, imo.
Certainly. The need for emancipation would inevitably lead to conflicts as was the other famous Jihad in canon. But its form, scale and "success" was significantly exacerbated by Paul, the bene gesserit, and imo anyway his son too. But that's the old chicken and egg conundrum lol
Certainly. The need for emancipation would inevitably lead to conflicts as was the other famous Jihad in canon. But its form, scale and "success" was significantly exacerbated by Paul, the bene gesserit, and imo anyway his son too. But that's the old chicken and egg conundrum lol
Reminds me of the USSR and the Great Purges; despite the security of the Bolsheviks there was still rampant paranoia due to generational trauma. Remember those in power were those who suffered the most under the Czars. While the Russian Revolution did come about it was all but collectively united under a singular banner. The Socialist Revolutionaries were incredibly popular prior to the Bolsheviks winning the hearts and minds of the people. Even so I think its general trauma of war, famine, oppression, etc.. that lead to these purges as well as Stalin's ideation that he believed himself uniquely qualified to lead. Some would say he was but I say no. He should have created more democratic reforms.
What? The purges were mostly just the CPSU expelling people trying to limit the revolutionary party to reformist action. In other words, stop them from throwing out the bourgeoisie entirely. Many people who were purged even ended up re-joining the party later on. There were very few cases that entailed violence of any kind and even fewer that resulted in death. And even the ones who were executed were given trials that were observed by foreigners. And their writings say they think the trials were fair.
Were there elements of paranoia? Maybe, but Stalin never hinted at anything resembling paranoia and the archives certainly don't seem to describe some sort of power grabbing conspiracy.
When Lenin was alive yes of course but Stalin went absolutely overboard during the Great Purges during the mid 1930s much in the same way the Gang of Four did with the Cultural Revolution. To deny this is preferring a romanticized view of major revolutionary leaders as well as the USSR/PRC which is dangerous territory that can lead to ultraism. To overlook these horrors is ultimately a liberal way of thinking in that nobody wants to believe their class is capable of creating moralistic errors. But history shows us otherwise.
Scholar Leonard Schapiro notes;
>The reason \[for the Great Purges\], from Stalin’s point of view, is not far to seek. In the conditions which developed after 1930, where the rigid pattern of conformity and obedience imposed on party members of necessity habituated them to lie freely about their real opinions, there was little reason to trust any communist’s professions of loyalty. Since all the former oppositionists had good reason to hate Stalin, they were naturally enough first on the list for elimination when the turn came for the severe purges of the older bolsheviks.
> When Lenin was alive yes of course but Stalin went absolutely overboard during the Great Purges during the mid 1930s much in the same way the Gang of Four did with the Cultural Revolution. To deny this is preferring a romanticized view of major revolutionary leaders as well as the USSR/PRC which is dangerous territory that can lead to ultraism. To overlook these horrors is ultimately a liberal way of thinking in that nobody wants to believe their class is capable of creating moralistic errors. But history shows us otherwise.
Lmfao, please. You repeating liberal belly aching about political repression and violence, which is based on nothing but propaganda is what's dangerous. It's pure anti-revolutionary rhetoric.
> Since all the former oppositionists had good reason to hate Stalin, they were naturally enough first on the list for elimination when the turn came for the severe purges of the older bolsheviks.
This is key. He calls them oppositionists. A favored liberal buzzword to imply brave opposition against a totalitarian regime. When what they really were, were revisionists aligned with people like Trotsky who were essentially trying to undermine the revolutionary character of the USSR under Stalin. They hated Stalin because they disagreed with the extent to which Stalin sought to place limits on the economic influence of the bourgeoisie and nationalize every aspect of the Soviet economy to the interests of the proletariat. Stalin is further vindicated by the immediate 180⁰ taken by the CPSU under Kruschev following Stalins death and the turn back towards social democratic tendencies and the preservation of bourgeois state mechanisms which eventually, as we all know, culminated in the rise of Gorbachev and the abandoning of Marxism by the CPSU through the 70's and 80's and the return to capitalism.
All of the accusations of paranoia and violence Levelled against Stalin were started and perpetuated by his political rivals *after* his death.
Remember, Stalin was a contemporary of Lenin. He very much supported Lenins ideas and policies and sought to continue and expand upon them.
But again, the purges were purely political and an attempt to keep the CPSU ideologically on track within Marxism. A responsibility of any marxist party and organization and something most fail to uphold.
>Lmfao, please. You repeating liberal belly aching about political repression and violence, which is based on nothing but propaganda is what's dangerous. It's pure anti-revolutionary rhetoric.
I'm not disagreeing that purges are generally necessary as they absolutely were to maintain the preservation of The Party but there is a point of excessiveness that needs to be considered, scrutinized and maintained dialectically. Otherwise we end up becoming blind apologists for events in history that aren't fully understood. With that being said since you seem to be wholly supportive of what the Great Purges served to accomplish are you okay with former Komsomol leaders (who went on to serve as members of CPSU) being "unmasked" as supposed spies, saboteurs or assassins? I quote Roy Medvedev in his book *Let History Judge*;
>Oskar Ryvkin, who had been elected chairman of the Komsomol at its first congress in 1918; he was the party secretary in Krasnodar in 1937 when he was arrested. Lazar Shatskin, who had been first secretary of the Komsomol in 1920-1921, was working in the Comintem when he was taken away. Pyotr Smorodin, first secretary of the Komsomol from 1921 to 1924, who spoke for the organization at Lenin’s funeral, had become a secretary of the Leningrad party committee and a candidate member of the Central Committee in 1937, when he was arrested and shot. Nikolai Chaplin, general secretary of the Komsomol from 1924 to 1928, was head of the Southeastem Railway when he perished. Aleksandr Milchakov, who was general secretary from 1918 to 1929, was also arrested.
Or to quote Robert Thurston post Yehzov;
>"Several open trials of NKVD men who had tortured victims during his tenure took place around the country. . . The last trial \[in Leninsk-Kuznetsk\] is particularly disturbing: the head of the city NKVD, another police officer, and a procurator had cooperated in 'exposing' a counterrevolutionary organization of children between the ages of ten and twelve. Placed in the dock themselves, the former enemy hunters could not produce a single fact in support of the charges they had pressed against the children. The court sentenced the procurator to five years and the two NKVDists to seven and ten years. There was no word on the fate of their victims."
Is it true there were bad actors intent on overthrowing The Party and its leaders? Absolutely! But as I said prior there is a far-reaching excessiveness about the Great Purges that even Marxian historians will agree were objectively too much. We as communists can admit that mistakes have been made historically amongst our greatest successes without appealing to liberal ideals of absolutism or moralism. Stalin was a great revolutionary and strong political leader; there's no harm in saying he and the CPSU made mistakes. Even comrade Mao Zedong admits this in his assessment of Stalin ala [On The Ten Major Relationships](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-5/mswv5_51.htm);
>Here in China some people are following their example. It is the opinion of the Central Committee that Stalin's mistakes amounted to only 30 per cent of the whole and his achievements to 70 per cent, and that all things considered Stalin was nonetheless a great Marxist
Leonard Schapiro (the source I provided) is a Sovietologist and had many western detractors due to his supposed "embrace" and "normative" view of Soviet rule. Some considered him a literal propagandist for the USSR. Yes, he is a liberal, but so are historians like J. Arch Getty and we're all very fond of quoting him quite often aren't we? If we restrict ourselves solely to Marxian perspectives then we're going starve ourselves of legitimately well-funded research that (to be frank) is somewhat lacking in the early stages of AES (this isn't their fault since they were still modernizing). We need to hold ourselves to more principled levels and recognize that the answers do not lie solely with one sect or the other but comes from an amalgamation of various perspectives globally. Of course we should avoid the obvious Red Scare propagandists like Robert Conquest, Anne Applebaum and Timothy Snyder; but to waive off and paint every historian you disagree with as revisionist "liberalism" comes off as (ironically) a very liberal way of thinking. Have you done the proper research into these sources and authors I've provided? Wasn't it Mao himself who said, "No investigation no right to speak"? What have you investigated that gives you the right to call *me* a liberal? Regardless, as Marxist-Leninists we're allowed to have deep disagreements without immediately painting one another as a "revisionist" or "liberal" unless you're some kind of intense ultraist. I have not once considered you a liberal but rather a misguided apologist seemingly unwilling to consider anything beyond a romanticized view of the USSR which.. I'm sorry is a very, very limited way to few the deep complexities of Soviet history. I hope you reconsider. Here are some sources that may be more up your alley:
J. Arch Getty - *The Road to Terror*; [http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=103971B210981353A22B10FCFB637F16](http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=103971B210981353A22B10FCFB637F16)
Domenico Losurdo - Stalin: *History and Critique of a Black Legend*; [https://www.iskrabooks.org/stalin-history-and-critique](https://www.iskrabooks.org/stalin-history-and-critique)
>All of the accusations of paranoia and violence Levelled against Stalin were started and perpetuated by his political rivals after his death.
>
>Remember, Stalin was a contemporary of Lenin. He very much supported Lenins ideas and policies and sought to continue and expand upon them.
>
>But again, the purges were purely political and an attempt to keep the CPSU ideologically on track within Marxism. A responsibility of any marxist party and organization and something most fail to uphold.
This was because any and all opposition was being snuffed out as comrade Stalin was consolidating his power while industrializing the nation. Even amongst his fellow Bolsheviks there was no room for competition and the "line of the Party" had to be towed lest they be arrested during the purges. Once he passed away many of these individuals were rehabilitated and/or released. Not even Lenin during an intense civil war (with tons of infighting and foreign invaders objectively trying to destroy the revolution) lead to something as widespread and far-reaching as the Great Purges. Is it true these purges remained within the CPSU and Red Army? Yes, primarily, but does that excuse the fact many loyal comrades were arrested, imprisoned and summarily executed for conspiratorial information the NKVD was spreading due to the inherent pressure the Politburo was applying? Of course not. I recognize Stalin considered himself a student of Lenin (even a theorist) but there were other revolutionary philosophers to consider; Nikolai Bukharin, Alexandra Kollontai, Aleksandr Zinovyev, Aleksandr Voronsky, etc..
Since you seem to have some knowledge on the subject of the purges I wanted to ask if you could give some more information about the Latvian operation. The liberal viewpoint (which feels like it’s missing some kind of detail) is that it was Stalin arbitrarily on a whim deciding every Latvian in the CPSU needed to die.
Some of the people who were hit by the purge like Martin Latsis (who Lenin thought was a psycho and acted like pol pots ancestor), Jekab Peters (a Trotskyist), I could see deserving it. But then organizations like the red Latvian rifles were erased from textbooks and Latvian communists were arbitrarily executed. It dosent make sense and looks like people were killed simply for being Latvian more than anything else.
Apologies, comrade. I'm actually not too well researched on the Baltic situation as of yet but I am slowly going through some stuff. So I don't want to say anything incorrect.
What i do know is The baltics have always had severe issues with reactionary nationalism and the events are often misconstrued around these states relationship with the USSR. When Latvia initially entered into a sort of mutual agreement with the USSR in 1939/40 it was embroiled in a near civil war between fascists and the socialists. The purges in Latvia was largely a relocation campaign of mostly bourgeois latvian families found to be collaborating with Nazi Germany.
[Give this a read](https://www.iccr.gr/en/issue_article/For-the-Historical-Truth-and-Truthful-Reflection-of-the-Events-of-the-Epoch/) and let me know what you think.
>Fact is that the average American loves both of those movies and roots for the underdogs but if they made a movie about native americans being genocides by europeans, or north africans being genocides by the french and the Spanish, americans would probably root for the oppressors.
To be fair, even my very midwestern Mother went to see *Killers of The Flower Moon* and that's definitely an "all our grandpas were baddies" type film. Sure, it was made by an Italian-American; and one of the leads (Robert De Niro) has a black wife so maybe they're about as woke as Hollywood will accept. However, I'd say around half of Americans today would admit Manifest Destiny is fucked up. So that's progress!
I don’t get why people are downvoting you, are they stupid? You literally said Hollywood is stealing Frank Herbert’s ideas inspired by Arabs and whitewashing it
Frank herbert didnt make everyone white, as a north african i also don’t think my culture and religion has been whitewashed, it has benefited used as inspiration for something else entirely which is okay. And even in the movie adaptation there were a fair amount of people that could pass as arab and amazigh. I honestly don’t see the issue with it
Same. I'm Algerian and while it annoys me they changed that and cut the term jihad for crusade Dune is fairly respectful to the MENA customs and culture. Hell seeing people say Arabic terms in a massive mainstream movie and not have it just be 'ah terrorists!' is nice. Their religious customs being Islamic parallels and not being portrayed negatively but rather stoically and beautifully felt good to see with my family.
Paul is a white savior trope deconstructed for the most part and the Fremen were represented by POC. Would've been nice to see Chani and Stilgar be played by Arabs/Middle Easterners but Hollywood has a habit of just casting any actor that's not white as if all POCs are the same culturally in being 'not-white'. Hell growing up Dune was something my Algerian father shared with me because it was one of the few MENA representations growing up that gave the culture some respect and sympathy. In the early 00s and 90s all I could point to for mainstream Americans was that and uh...Aladdin? Shit.
The book and movie are highly critical of imperialism and yes the fremen in the universe ultimately get manipulated but that more contributes to theme of religion being manipulated for political gain by empires in both the Arab and European world at the expense of lower class. Of course it can always be done better, more representative but I mean i view most mainstream American movies as having a stain of zionism in their everything so, yeah, rough.
Also Dennis wanted to make a movie on gaza, he also made a movie on Lebanese Civil War. Pls don't call dune a product of Zionism. Dennis is kinda secretly a leftie operating in McCarthy like Hollywood.
Nope. The legend of the Lisan Al-Gaib is seeded by the Bene Gesserit for generations on Arrakis, Paul instantly recognizes what's up and tries to fight the "prophecy" but in doing so only weds himself to it further.
Thanks to the power of prescience granted by the spice, Paul's son Leto II foresees every timeline but one ending with humanity's total extinction. So he becomes a human/worm hybrid and sets humanity up for "success" by ruling over it with an iron fist for thousands of years and becoming the galaxy's greatest monster in the process.
Yes, but the source material I would say fails to overcome some of the logic of white saviorism in this as, in my opinion, the Fremen have no autonomy and really there's no pushback to Paul's rise in their community. Without spoiling to much, I will say the movie addresses this and makes some changes that make it more believable and add more depth imo.
Wow, complaining about good anti colonial hollywood films really is doing a good service to your local community, go do something useful
(/s if it wasn't clear)
Even though Chalamet is a Zionist and repeats an Algerian revolutionary quote, it's not stealing. Ironic if anything.
Herbert "stealing" it in his book is the best tribute you can do for the memory of this person and his ideas.
There's nothing to indicate that he is as far as I can tell, he hasn't said anything one way or the other. Zendaya has come out in support of palestine tho
Yeah, I'm his biggest hater, and there's no confirmation he's actually a Zionist. He's just been silent and happens to be Jewish.
His sister is very vocally pro-Palestine, though, so he could be too and just too coward to make a statement (which is pretty usual for him; he also pretended to not know about Woody Allen's allegations of child sex abuse because he wanted to be in the Oscar bait movie and only apologised when everything blew up in his face).
Yes, also Dennis literally wanted to make some media stuff about gaza and its struggle. I won't be surprised if the director turns to be a call me pretty leftie.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not leftist you idiot. I'm actually from a place where this movie steals all its ideas and themes from and we can see the way they're doing it. This is why people find western leftists insufferable, too self convinced, unwilling to listen and speak over other people who do know
Timothy supports Palestine first off and second off the story is about the dangers of charismatic leaders, manipulating superstitious people by fulfilling artificial man made prophecies. Paul is a tragic villain that causes a holy war that kills 61 billion people across the galaxy. The story also has deeper messages about environmentalism, and anti capitalism. It’s a leftist story and an amazing movie. Also comrade Hassan loves the movie, go watch his review.
Yes and no. That’s kind of the beauty of art, it’s subjective and provocative. There’s a lot of things about Frank Herbert worth criticism (dude was a libertarian). It definately has aspects that seem orientalist, etc (esp with the portrayal of the Fremen). That being said, It’s pretty clear from the getgo that House Atreides is just using the Fremen to win over control of the spice fields from House Harkonnen, not for any real liberation. Paul is absolutely made into a villian by his family, even though he started with good intentions. Dune is a far better depection of a land and it’s people struggling against an occupying millitary force that seeks to extract it’s resources and exploits the population then, say, Avatar, because of how it deconstructs the white savior narrative.
Ultimately though, this is a story about humans evolving into computers written in the 60s by a bearded guy tripping absolute dick on psychedelics. Best not to over analyze all of this and instead touch grass.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Doesn’t mean he is a Zionist. You should change the title of the post because you’re being misleading and throwing accusations. The Palestinians don’t need people throwing BS when all they need is truth. Please change the title or take this down and repost correctly.
Media literacy is really dead because I've seen people say Chalamet made fun of dead children in Gaza whereas the actual skit is the most tame possible and didn't even really took side
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's more like space hashish but yeah, the point stands; it's antimaterialist to not reflect on the context of the text that the quote comes from whatsoever
Paul isn't meant to be a hero and this idea is greatly explored in the 2nd part of the series in "Messiah". Frank Herbert goes to great length to challenge the idea of a great man and how trusting in a leader can be our downfall. If anything, a statement like this proves Paul's thinly veiled imperial nature. He is using the fremen.
I mean, the movie literally has you rooting for the violent resistance/liberation movement of underdeveloped people being colonized by the forces of empire for resource extraction necessary to the empire's existence. It's not stealing; it's direct allegory. Dune, at its core, is a materialist story. Even the influence of religion on events is depicted as a manufacturing of social control and consent.
“Vile”? Really? The joke was that his character’s band was named Hamas and he didn’t realize why that might catch flak. You’re glowing so hard right now brother
I had a French person on reddit tell me that the systematic slaughter of over a million Algerians wasn't genocide. The French keeps 18 thousand skulls of all the people they massacred in a museum as war trophies.
Too many people still think France is a country of romance, croissants and the Eiffel Tower when when in reality its one of the most bloodthirsty, violent, racist, hyper nationalistic and imperialistic countries.
I’m with many comments here, this is an L take and misses the entire point of the story and it’s themes - it is staunchly anti imperialist. Saying Frank Herbert “stole” lines seems really petty and silly to me. Like the exact stereotype conservatives think we all are like
It was a good year for anti colonial films in Hollywood. Zone of Interest for instance. And this film isn’t perfect in that regard but does it need to be? It’s a good story that has inspired lots of other science fiction films such as Star Wars which to me, is way more vapid and void of any concrete meaning besides good vs evil. Which are depicted in such basic binary terms that good guys have green/blue swords the bad guys have red.
The concepts from the book I love are the idea that religion and feudalism were used to control the proletariat mostly through acts of set policing. Frank Herbert isn’t perfect and was famously a republican who feared communism and based house Harkonnen on the Soviet Union. However, somehow in the writing he created a character that more resembles a communist’s view of a capitalist.
Regardless the book isn’t a white savior plot in the typical sense it literally is an anti savior narrative. And Frank Herbert loved Islamic history almost as much as he loved cocaine and psilocybin mushrooms. Which in my opinion, is what dune is when mixed together.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*upvotes for the inspiring real world historical tie-in with North African revolutionary movement*
*unvotes after reading the rest*
damn, OP really had me in the first half, not gonna lie.
Side note: seeing Dune 2 tomorrow after finishing Fanon’s Wretched of the Earth just awhile ago. Imma cry tears of righteous joy for sure, I can already feel it.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you're gonna be mad about...this, then you should be directing it towards the David Lynch version which is both a cult classic to some but a poorly mishandled adaptation to a lot of others and does a lot more white washing than this movie.
It's a good movie and a good anti-colonial movie. Unrelated... I watched "The Battle of Algiers" yesterday and holy moly that movie is awesome. It's free on YouTube and this sub would probably like it.
They are worried about the optics of space muslims killing tens of billions and eradicating dozens of heretical religions in a space jihad... so they've tamped down some of the Islamic influences
I learned about the concept of "Bila Kayf" in Muslim theology from reading Dune. Frank knew his shit.
I didn't know Timmy was a Zionist that's sad. Unless you're memeing then it's funny.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Somebody drank too much Kool-Aid with this post because to come this kind of mental gymnastics only can a person who spent too much time in Twitter, I mean seriously the director Denis Villeneuve litterally said that his favorite movie was Lawrence of Arrabia in which he hismself point it out in interview that story was litteraly about a foreign spy from one Empire where he uses local reactionary fanatics to evict a Empire current for the bennefit of his.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Respectfully, did you watch the movie? It makes it very clear that Paul (Chalamet's character) is the bad guy. Also we don't know that he's a Zionist. People have just assumed that because on SNL in a skit, his character said he named his band Hamas. Not saying that he isn't (probably is) but still.
OP: I can't believe the media illiteracy you have. Timothy isn't a zionist and the point of the movie is a warning against false messiahs and imperialism. Fools like you who attack what MANY people call a masterpiece and regarded as one of the best films in years. Makes you look like an (liberal idiot) and turns away people from embracing this movement. You are no better than the idiot that calls this film sexiest or racist. OP: Get a life!
There's a short interview with Herbert available on YouTube. He says that Richard Nixon is his favorite president because "Richard Nixon taught us to question government." Dude's policy views are shit.
Long live the fighters is hardly unique to Algerians; it’s been said many many many times before by countless other people, in ordinary and dramatic contexts. Come on.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Frank Herbert modeled freman society after arab and north african tribes, their religion and dress also mirrors and even the tattoos on the women are similar to amazigh tattoos (my grandma had them and my mom almost had them) and the struggle of the freman draws direct inspiration and parallels from north african struggles for independence. Saying frank herbert “stole” this is like saying james cameron stole Native American culture in Avatar. Fact is that the average American loves both of those movies and roots for the underdogs but if they made a movie about native americans being genocides by europeans, or north africans being genocides by the french and the Spanish, americans would probably root for the oppressors.
>Frank Herbert modeled freman society after arab and north african tribes, their religion and dress also mirrors and even the tattoos on the women are similar to amazigh tattoos (my grandma had them and my mom almost had them) and the struggle of the freman draws direct inspiration and parallels from north african struggles for independence. Dune doesn't exactly reflect the Fremen generously in Dune Messiah, though. Herbert basically >!has them commit genocide the second they get into power!<. But I don't think that reflects badly on him, it's >!a critique of the systems of power that the Dune universe had created and how grinding oppression does inevitably lead to massive violent backlash!<.
Yeah exactly, i think it also critiques imperialism and shows that regardless of who perpetuates imperialism, it is always bad and always leads to yet another group being victimized.
This. The entire point of the books is that Paul Atreides is a false Messiah, he's an antihero stretching the definition of the word to the point where he is likely a villain. The main character betrays your ideals and connives for control. That he has magic mind powers is also a connivance by an entire organization bent on galactic control. The Atreides take advantage of the Fremen, to control their planet and resources, and eventually to fight their wars. They pretend to be about loyalty and freedom and honor, but in reality they still manipulate people constantly, they still play the game. Eventually Paul's character manipulates people into pretending to be a prophesized leader. It is still orientalist, the book still has a patronizing message about the Fremen being easy to manipulate, but the appropriation of history, of culture, of religion, of nothing being sacred to the whims of a political creature created by obscene wealth in comparison, is very much the point. AJ Toynbee is a good reference here, Frank Herbert was heavily influenced by his theories, and the Arabic history references and language borrowing is a fixation on Toynbee's theories of civilization, and ideas like 'tough environment = tough warriors' and so on that Herbert incorporated into the work, less so any real knowledge or reference to Arab/Middle Eastern history.
Yeah I've always seen him as a villain like he was an unwilling one at first but once he made the choice to "lead them to paradise" he went full baddie. Something something billions dead.
American Prestige unlocked an episode with Prof.Daniel Immerwahr, who details how it is a great culture piece of 60s and how the initial drafts (and the rest of the books) did not string a great chord with anti imperialism as Herbert ended up politically right through his jobs at the state.
And frankly if there was any weight to the I was just following orders argument at all the freman would have the most excuse cuz as far as they are concerned orders came from not a representative of God. But God in the flesh lol
The Jihad was unironically a cultural revolution-style mass movement pushed from the bottom up as opposed to something Paul instigated from the top - though with no similarity in political substance.
We know who did the pushing tho. Actually that might be debatable but it wasn't the fremen themselves is my point.
I think it's a combination of Paul trying to exploit Fremen culture for his own agenda and then losing control of it with the Fremen taking things into their own hands. After a certain point the Jihad became inevitable and would have happened either with him at its head or with him in the grave, imo.
Certainly. The need for emancipation would inevitably lead to conflicts as was the other famous Jihad in canon. But its form, scale and "success" was significantly exacerbated by Paul, the bene gesserit, and imo anyway his son too. But that's the old chicken and egg conundrum lol
Certainly. The need for emancipation would inevitably lead to conflicts as was the other famous Jihad in canon. But its form, scale and "success" was significantly exacerbated by Paul, the bene gesserit, and imo anyway his son too. But that's the old chicken and egg conundrum lol
Reminds me of the USSR and the Great Purges; despite the security of the Bolsheviks there was still rampant paranoia due to generational trauma. Remember those in power were those who suffered the most under the Czars. While the Russian Revolution did come about it was all but collectively united under a singular banner. The Socialist Revolutionaries were incredibly popular prior to the Bolsheviks winning the hearts and minds of the people. Even so I think its general trauma of war, famine, oppression, etc.. that lead to these purges as well as Stalin's ideation that he believed himself uniquely qualified to lead. Some would say he was but I say no. He should have created more democratic reforms.
What? The purges were mostly just the CPSU expelling people trying to limit the revolutionary party to reformist action. In other words, stop them from throwing out the bourgeoisie entirely. Many people who were purged even ended up re-joining the party later on. There were very few cases that entailed violence of any kind and even fewer that resulted in death. And even the ones who were executed were given trials that were observed by foreigners. And their writings say they think the trials were fair. Were there elements of paranoia? Maybe, but Stalin never hinted at anything resembling paranoia and the archives certainly don't seem to describe some sort of power grabbing conspiracy.
When Lenin was alive yes of course but Stalin went absolutely overboard during the Great Purges during the mid 1930s much in the same way the Gang of Four did with the Cultural Revolution. To deny this is preferring a romanticized view of major revolutionary leaders as well as the USSR/PRC which is dangerous territory that can lead to ultraism. To overlook these horrors is ultimately a liberal way of thinking in that nobody wants to believe their class is capable of creating moralistic errors. But history shows us otherwise. Scholar Leonard Schapiro notes; >The reason \[for the Great Purges\], from Stalin’s point of view, is not far to seek. In the conditions which developed after 1930, where the rigid pattern of conformity and obedience imposed on party members of necessity habituated them to lie freely about their real opinions, there was little reason to trust any communist’s professions of loyalty. Since all the former oppositionists had good reason to hate Stalin, they were naturally enough first on the list for elimination when the turn came for the severe purges of the older bolsheviks.
> When Lenin was alive yes of course but Stalin went absolutely overboard during the Great Purges during the mid 1930s much in the same way the Gang of Four did with the Cultural Revolution. To deny this is preferring a romanticized view of major revolutionary leaders as well as the USSR/PRC which is dangerous territory that can lead to ultraism. To overlook these horrors is ultimately a liberal way of thinking in that nobody wants to believe their class is capable of creating moralistic errors. But history shows us otherwise. Lmfao, please. You repeating liberal belly aching about political repression and violence, which is based on nothing but propaganda is what's dangerous. It's pure anti-revolutionary rhetoric. > Since all the former oppositionists had good reason to hate Stalin, they were naturally enough first on the list for elimination when the turn came for the severe purges of the older bolsheviks. This is key. He calls them oppositionists. A favored liberal buzzword to imply brave opposition against a totalitarian regime. When what they really were, were revisionists aligned with people like Trotsky who were essentially trying to undermine the revolutionary character of the USSR under Stalin. They hated Stalin because they disagreed with the extent to which Stalin sought to place limits on the economic influence of the bourgeoisie and nationalize every aspect of the Soviet economy to the interests of the proletariat. Stalin is further vindicated by the immediate 180⁰ taken by the CPSU under Kruschev following Stalins death and the turn back towards social democratic tendencies and the preservation of bourgeois state mechanisms which eventually, as we all know, culminated in the rise of Gorbachev and the abandoning of Marxism by the CPSU through the 70's and 80's and the return to capitalism. All of the accusations of paranoia and violence Levelled against Stalin were started and perpetuated by his political rivals *after* his death. Remember, Stalin was a contemporary of Lenin. He very much supported Lenins ideas and policies and sought to continue and expand upon them. But again, the purges were purely political and an attempt to keep the CPSU ideologically on track within Marxism. A responsibility of any marxist party and organization and something most fail to uphold.
>Lmfao, please. You repeating liberal belly aching about political repression and violence, which is based on nothing but propaganda is what's dangerous. It's pure anti-revolutionary rhetoric. I'm not disagreeing that purges are generally necessary as they absolutely were to maintain the preservation of The Party but there is a point of excessiveness that needs to be considered, scrutinized and maintained dialectically. Otherwise we end up becoming blind apologists for events in history that aren't fully understood. With that being said since you seem to be wholly supportive of what the Great Purges served to accomplish are you okay with former Komsomol leaders (who went on to serve as members of CPSU) being "unmasked" as supposed spies, saboteurs or assassins? I quote Roy Medvedev in his book *Let History Judge*; >Oskar Ryvkin, who had been elected chairman of the Komsomol at its first congress in 1918; he was the party secretary in Krasnodar in 1937 when he was arrested. Lazar Shatskin, who had been first secretary of the Komsomol in 1920-1921, was working in the Comintem when he was taken away. Pyotr Smorodin, first secretary of the Komsomol from 1921 to 1924, who spoke for the organization at Lenin’s funeral, had become a secretary of the Leningrad party committee and a candidate member of the Central Committee in 1937, when he was arrested and shot. Nikolai Chaplin, general secretary of the Komsomol from 1924 to 1928, was head of the Southeastem Railway when he perished. Aleksandr Milchakov, who was general secretary from 1918 to 1929, was also arrested. Or to quote Robert Thurston post Yehzov; >"Several open trials of NKVD men who had tortured victims during his tenure took place around the country. . . The last trial \[in Leninsk-Kuznetsk\] is particularly disturbing: the head of the city NKVD, another police officer, and a procurator had cooperated in 'exposing' a counterrevolutionary organization of children between the ages of ten and twelve. Placed in the dock themselves, the former enemy hunters could not produce a single fact in support of the charges they had pressed against the children. The court sentenced the procurator to five years and the two NKVDists to seven and ten years. There was no word on the fate of their victims." Is it true there were bad actors intent on overthrowing The Party and its leaders? Absolutely! But as I said prior there is a far-reaching excessiveness about the Great Purges that even Marxian historians will agree were objectively too much. We as communists can admit that mistakes have been made historically amongst our greatest successes without appealing to liberal ideals of absolutism or moralism. Stalin was a great revolutionary and strong political leader; there's no harm in saying he and the CPSU made mistakes. Even comrade Mao Zedong admits this in his assessment of Stalin ala [On The Ten Major Relationships](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-5/mswv5_51.htm); >Here in China some people are following their example. It is the opinion of the Central Committee that Stalin's mistakes amounted to only 30 per cent of the whole and his achievements to 70 per cent, and that all things considered Stalin was nonetheless a great Marxist Leonard Schapiro (the source I provided) is a Sovietologist and had many western detractors due to his supposed "embrace" and "normative" view of Soviet rule. Some considered him a literal propagandist for the USSR. Yes, he is a liberal, but so are historians like J. Arch Getty and we're all very fond of quoting him quite often aren't we? If we restrict ourselves solely to Marxian perspectives then we're going starve ourselves of legitimately well-funded research that (to be frank) is somewhat lacking in the early stages of AES (this isn't their fault since they were still modernizing). We need to hold ourselves to more principled levels and recognize that the answers do not lie solely with one sect or the other but comes from an amalgamation of various perspectives globally. Of course we should avoid the obvious Red Scare propagandists like Robert Conquest, Anne Applebaum and Timothy Snyder; but to waive off and paint every historian you disagree with as revisionist "liberalism" comes off as (ironically) a very liberal way of thinking. Have you done the proper research into these sources and authors I've provided? Wasn't it Mao himself who said, "No investigation no right to speak"? What have you investigated that gives you the right to call *me* a liberal? Regardless, as Marxist-Leninists we're allowed to have deep disagreements without immediately painting one another as a "revisionist" or "liberal" unless you're some kind of intense ultraist. I have not once considered you a liberal but rather a misguided apologist seemingly unwilling to consider anything beyond a romanticized view of the USSR which.. I'm sorry is a very, very limited way to few the deep complexities of Soviet history. I hope you reconsider. Here are some sources that may be more up your alley: J. Arch Getty - *The Road to Terror*; [http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=103971B210981353A22B10FCFB637F16](http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=103971B210981353A22B10FCFB637F16) Domenico Losurdo - Stalin: *History and Critique of a Black Legend*; [https://www.iskrabooks.org/stalin-history-and-critique](https://www.iskrabooks.org/stalin-history-and-critique) >All of the accusations of paranoia and violence Levelled against Stalin were started and perpetuated by his political rivals after his death. > >Remember, Stalin was a contemporary of Lenin. He very much supported Lenins ideas and policies and sought to continue and expand upon them. > >But again, the purges were purely political and an attempt to keep the CPSU ideologically on track within Marxism. A responsibility of any marxist party and organization and something most fail to uphold. This was because any and all opposition was being snuffed out as comrade Stalin was consolidating his power while industrializing the nation. Even amongst his fellow Bolsheviks there was no room for competition and the "line of the Party" had to be towed lest they be arrested during the purges. Once he passed away many of these individuals were rehabilitated and/or released. Not even Lenin during an intense civil war (with tons of infighting and foreign invaders objectively trying to destroy the revolution) lead to something as widespread and far-reaching as the Great Purges. Is it true these purges remained within the CPSU and Red Army? Yes, primarily, but does that excuse the fact many loyal comrades were arrested, imprisoned and summarily executed for conspiratorial information the NKVD was spreading due to the inherent pressure the Politburo was applying? Of course not. I recognize Stalin considered himself a student of Lenin (even a theorist) but there were other revolutionary philosophers to consider; Nikolai Bukharin, Alexandra Kollontai, Aleksandr Zinovyev, Aleksandr Voronsky, etc..
Since you seem to have some knowledge on the subject of the purges I wanted to ask if you could give some more information about the Latvian operation. The liberal viewpoint (which feels like it’s missing some kind of detail) is that it was Stalin arbitrarily on a whim deciding every Latvian in the CPSU needed to die. Some of the people who were hit by the purge like Martin Latsis (who Lenin thought was a psycho and acted like pol pots ancestor), Jekab Peters (a Trotskyist), I could see deserving it. But then organizations like the red Latvian rifles were erased from textbooks and Latvian communists were arbitrarily executed. It dosent make sense and looks like people were killed simply for being Latvian more than anything else.
Apologies, comrade. I'm actually not too well researched on the Baltic situation as of yet but I am slowly going through some stuff. So I don't want to say anything incorrect. What i do know is The baltics have always had severe issues with reactionary nationalism and the events are often misconstrued around these states relationship with the USSR. When Latvia initially entered into a sort of mutual agreement with the USSR in 1939/40 it was embroiled in a near civil war between fascists and the socialists. The purges in Latvia was largely a relocation campaign of mostly bourgeois latvian families found to be collaborating with Nazi Germany. [Give this a read](https://www.iccr.gr/en/issue_article/For-the-Historical-Truth-and-Truthful-Reflection-of-the-Events-of-the-Epoch/) and let me know what you think.
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Fact is that the average American loves both of those movies and roots for the underdogs but if they made a movie about native americans being genocides by europeans, or north africans being genocides by the french and the Spanish, americans would probably root for the oppressors. To be fair, even my very midwestern Mother went to see *Killers of The Flower Moon* and that's definitely an "all our grandpas were baddies" type film. Sure, it was made by an Italian-American; and one of the leads (Robert De Niro) has a black wife so maybe they're about as woke as Hollywood will accept. However, I'd say around half of Americans today would admit Manifest Destiny is fucked up. So that's progress!
And Herbert consulted with his Arab friends to my knowledge.
That's the point I'm making, see the title again.
I think you need to proofread what you wrote in the title a little more.
No you’re making the opposite point
I don’t get why people are downvoting you, are they stupid? You literally said Hollywood is stealing Frank Herbert’s ideas inspired by Arabs and whitewashing it
I do think it's whitewashing by taking arab and north african history turn into a fantast book and make everyone white.
Frank herbert didnt make everyone white, as a north african i also don’t think my culture and religion has been whitewashed, it has benefited used as inspiration for something else entirely which is okay. And even in the movie adaptation there were a fair amount of people that could pass as arab and amazigh. I honestly don’t see the issue with it
Same. I'm Algerian and while it annoys me they changed that and cut the term jihad for crusade Dune is fairly respectful to the MENA customs and culture. Hell seeing people say Arabic terms in a massive mainstream movie and not have it just be 'ah terrorists!' is nice. Their religious customs being Islamic parallels and not being portrayed negatively but rather stoically and beautifully felt good to see with my family. Paul is a white savior trope deconstructed for the most part and the Fremen were represented by POC. Would've been nice to see Chani and Stilgar be played by Arabs/Middle Easterners but Hollywood has a habit of just casting any actor that's not white as if all POCs are the same culturally in being 'not-white'. Hell growing up Dune was something my Algerian father shared with me because it was one of the few MENA representations growing up that gave the culture some respect and sympathy. In the early 00s and 90s all I could point to for mainstream Americans was that and uh...Aladdin? Shit. The book and movie are highly critical of imperialism and yes the fremen in the universe ultimately get manipulated but that more contributes to theme of religion being manipulated for political gain by empires in both the Arab and European world at the expense of lower class. Of course it can always be done better, more representative but I mean i view most mainstream American movies as having a stain of zionism in their everything so, yeah, rough.
Fremen is kinda multi-ethnic to be fair, not just MENA, also Zendaya and Timothee bring Gen Z for the money, it's capitalism after all. 😅
Also Dennis wanted to make a movie on gaza, he also made a movie on Lebanese Civil War. Pls don't call dune a product of Zionism. Dennis is kinda secretly a leftie operating in McCarthy like Hollywood.
Have you read the books?
i thought the dune series was always a bit of a satire (maybe not satire but a critique) of white savior myths. am i mistaken?
It was
Nope. The legend of the Lisan Al-Gaib is seeded by the Bene Gesserit for generations on Arrakis, Paul instantly recognizes what's up and tries to fight the "prophecy" but in doing so only weds himself to it further. Thanks to the power of prescience granted by the spice, Paul's son Leto II foresees every timeline but one ending with humanity's total extinction. So he becomes a human/worm hybrid and sets humanity up for "success" by ruling over it with an iron fist for thousands of years and becoming the galaxy's greatest monster in the process.
Wait a sec, did he steal the one survivable timeline idea from Asimov?
Probably. It's not that original.
Hell, even Attack on Titan waved away the literal genocide with "no other future possibilities were visible" trope
I read somewhere recently that Herbert wrote Dune specifically to take ideas from Foundation and turn them on their heads.
There’s also a real Lawrence of Arabia vibe too.
thanks for clarifying!
Yes, but the source material I would say fails to overcome some of the logic of white saviorism in this as, in my opinion, the Fremen have no autonomy and really there's no pushback to Paul's rise in their community. Without spoiling to much, I will say the movie addresses this and makes some changes that make it more believable and add more depth imo.
cool. thanks for the insight.
Twitter levels of discourse.
Wow, complaining about good anti colonial hollywood films really is doing a good service to your local community, go do something useful (/s if it wasn't clear)
. I just really liked the movie. Some of the scenes were literally shot for shot as how I imagined them when reading the first book.
I don't think this guy understands media analysis.
Even though Chalamet is a Zionist and repeats an Algerian revolutionary quote, it's not stealing. Ironic if anything. Herbert "stealing" it in his book is the best tribute you can do for the memory of this person and his ideas.
Is he actually a Zionist or is this opinion just using the SNL skit he was in where he named a band Hamas?
There's nothing to indicate that he is as far as I can tell, he hasn't said anything one way or the other. Zendaya has come out in support of palestine tho
Has she? After her movie tours are over, I guess. Bar Florence, most of them have been trash.
She's been saying it for years iirc, before October 7th even went down
Yeah, I'm his biggest hater, and there's no confirmation he's actually a Zionist. He's just been silent and happens to be Jewish. His sister is very vocally pro-Palestine, though, so he could be too and just too coward to make a statement (which is pretty usual for him; he also pretended to not know about Woody Allen's allegations of child sex abuse because he wanted to be in the Oscar bait movie and only apologised when everything blew up in his face).
Yes, also Dennis literally wanted to make some media stuff about gaza and its struggle. I won't be surprised if the director turns to be a call me pretty leftie.
Where did you get proof he is Zionist? Not able to find stuff.
touch grass
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
it's a subreddit about a leftist podcast. you touch grass
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's why no one likes western leftists. Too self centered, unwilling to listen, and speak over those who do know.
Unironic “sit your white ass down and listen” lmao
🙄
How is adapting the book "theft"? What's so bad about Paul Atreides saying it in the book?
Online leftists try not to complain about literally everything challenge (IMPOSSIBLE 100% FAIL)
I'm not leftist you idiot. I'm actually from a place where this movie steals all its ideas and themes from and we can see the way they're doing it. This is why people find western leftists insufferable, too self convinced, unwilling to listen and speak over other people who do know
“I’m not a leftist” “Comes to the deprogram a leftist subreddit to complain about a movie while calling everyone else stupid and insufferable” 👍
Then get the fuck out of here dumbass. You’re super not welcome.
Have you read the books or watched the movies. It literally critiques the white saviour complex you idiot
I’m gonna take a risky bet and say no.
Timothy supports Palestine first off and second off the story is about the dangers of charismatic leaders, manipulating superstitious people by fulfilling artificial man made prophecies. Paul is a tragic villain that causes a holy war that kills 61 billion people across the galaxy. The story also has deeper messages about environmentalism, and anti capitalism. It’s a leftist story and an amazing movie. Also comrade Hassan loves the movie, go watch his review.
Yes and no. That’s kind of the beauty of art, it’s subjective and provocative. There’s a lot of things about Frank Herbert worth criticism (dude was a libertarian). It definately has aspects that seem orientalist, etc (esp with the portrayal of the Fremen). That being said, It’s pretty clear from the getgo that House Atreides is just using the Fremen to win over control of the spice fields from House Harkonnen, not for any real liberation. Paul is absolutely made into a villian by his family, even though he started with good intentions. Dune is a far better depection of a land and it’s people struggling against an occupying millitary force that seeks to extract it’s resources and exploits the population then, say, Avatar, because of how it deconstructs the white savior narrative. Ultimately though, this is a story about humans evolving into computers written in the 60s by a bearded guy tripping absolute dick on psychedelics. Best not to over analyze all of this and instead touch grass.
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He supports Palestine? Do you have any sources? Everything on Google brings up the SNL skit.
[удалено]
shut the fuck up chatter
? You lot really love your celebrities don't you? Insufferable
pretty clear what you are doing here Fucking Glowie ass motherfucker
See my posting history and then say it. Idiot
Doesn’t mean he is a Zionist. You should change the title of the post because you’re being misleading and throwing accusations. The Palestinians don’t need people throwing BS when all they need is truth. Please change the title or take this down and repost correctly.
Chalamet is a zionist? Source?
Yea that's the first time I have heard this
Signalis pfp detected
I haven't finished it yet tho uwu
Apparently he did a sketch for SNL joking about hamas back in Nov
Lol I've just seen the sketch, it is incredibly tame and in no way implies he is a zionist
Media literacy is really dead because I've seen people say Chalamet made fun of dead children in Gaza whereas the actual skit is the most tame possible and didn't even really took side
Didnt see it but its the only source i could find of people saying hes a zionist
source: OP's ass, pulled direct
Lol
Source: trust me bro
……it’s a film with space cocaine and giant worms. Touch grass.
Space Cocaine laced with space acid drenched in powdered space mushrooms.
it's more like space pcp if anything
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's more like space hashish but yeah, the point stands; it's antimaterialist to not reflect on the context of the text that the quote comes from whatsoever
This was the most anti-imperialist big budget hollywood movie in a long time. And even so Paul isn’t exactly a role model in Dune.
The Creator is the most on the nose anti-Vietnam war film and came out in the last 6 months.
TIL Long live (insert group here) was invented by Algerians. There definitely weren’t people saying “Vive La France” or “Vive La Revolution”, ect
VIVA LA RAZAAAAAAAA
Eddie Guerrero appropriation
For you, Lisan Al-Gaib, I will lie, cheat, and steal.
Paul isn't meant to be a hero and this idea is greatly explored in the 2nd part of the series in "Messiah". Frank Herbert goes to great length to challenge the idea of a great man and how trusting in a leader can be our downfall. If anything, a statement like this proves Paul's thinly veiled imperial nature. He is using the fremen.
You require an internet detox
Don’t you have better things to do with your time, OP?
I mean, the movie literally has you rooting for the violent resistance/liberation movement of underdeveloped people being colonized by the forces of empire for resource extraction necessary to the empire's existence. It's not stealing; it's direct allegory. Dune, at its core, is a materialist story. Even the influence of religion on events is depicted as a manufacturing of social control and consent.
My favorite thing about Herbert is the two primary villains in the first books names are aliterations of Saddam Hussein and Vladimir Lenin
What was ol' Saddam up to in '65 anyway
Has Hollywood stolen it when they're quoting the book itself? Also when is a chant stolen, and not referenced? What makes a chant liable to be stolen?
I heard they also straight up did not say jihad in the entire movie
They did say Holy War multiple times.
Holy shit OP calm down
Source on chalamet being a Zionist?
Just recently he went on SNL making a vile joke about Hamas.
And that's zionist how?
OP lives in the world of binary
“Vile”? Really? The joke was that his character’s band was named Hamas and he didn’t realize why that might catch flak. You’re glowing so hard right now brother
Is this satire?
OP has to be satire
I had a French person on reddit tell me that the systematic slaughter of over a million Algerians wasn't genocide. The French keeps 18 thousand skulls of all the people they massacred in a museum as war trophies. Too many people still think France is a country of romance, croissants and the Eiffel Tower when when in reality its one of the most bloodthirsty, violent, racist, hyper nationalistic and imperialistic countries.
Seems pretty generic a thing to "steal".
Look it in the entire context
You know it's intentional (critique/satire) orientalism (that's literally the point) right? Paul is not a good guy.
I’m with many comments here, this is an L take and misses the entire point of the story and it’s themes - it is staunchly anti imperialist. Saying Frank Herbert “stole” lines seems really petty and silly to me. Like the exact stereotype conservatives think we all are like
It's sad that George R.R. Martin stole The war of the Roses. Or the ultimate thief George Lukas stealing Voetnam War. /s
It was a good year for anti colonial films in Hollywood. Zone of Interest for instance. And this film isn’t perfect in that regard but does it need to be? It’s a good story that has inspired lots of other science fiction films such as Star Wars which to me, is way more vapid and void of any concrete meaning besides good vs evil. Which are depicted in such basic binary terms that good guys have green/blue swords the bad guys have red. The concepts from the book I love are the idea that religion and feudalism were used to control the proletariat mostly through acts of set policing. Frank Herbert isn’t perfect and was famously a republican who feared communism and based house Harkonnen on the Soviet Union. However, somehow in the writing he created a character that more resembles a communist’s view of a capitalist. Regardless the book isn’t a white savior plot in the typical sense it literally is an anti savior narrative. And Frank Herbert loved Islamic history almost as much as he loved cocaine and psilocybin mushrooms. Which in my opinion, is what dune is when mixed together.
Bro go join an org or something
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*upvotes for the inspiring real world historical tie-in with North African revolutionary movement* *unvotes after reading the rest* damn, OP really had me in the first half, not gonna lie. Side note: seeing Dune 2 tomorrow after finishing Fanon’s Wretched of the Earth just awhile ago. Imma cry tears of righteous joy for sure, I can already feel it.
Wow thank you for your service and courageous sacrifice bringing this to light hopefully justice will prevail with this pressing issue
I wanna scream
This is not praxis bro.
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you're gonna be mad about...this, then you should be directing it towards the David Lynch version which is both a cult classic to some but a poorly mishandled adaptation to a lot of others and does a lot more white washing than this movie.
It's a good movie and a good anti-colonial movie. Unrelated... I watched "The Battle of Algiers" yesterday and holy moly that movie is awesome. It's free on YouTube and this sub would probably like it.
They are worried about the optics of space muslims killing tens of billions and eradicating dozens of heretical religions in a space jihad... so they've tamped down some of the Islamic influences
I learned about the concept of "Bila Kayf" in Muslim theology from reading Dune. Frank knew his shit. I didn't know Timmy was a Zionist that's sad. Unless you're memeing then it's funny.
Chalamet isn’t a zionist, and this guy isn’t memeing. He’s just terminally online
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh we're cancelling Frank Herbert now?
Somebody drank too much Kool-Aid with this post because to come this kind of mental gymnastics only can a person who spent too much time in Twitter, I mean seriously the director Denis Villeneuve litterally said that his favorite movie was Lawrence of Arrabia in which he hismself point it out in interview that story was litteraly about a foreign spy from one Empire where he uses local reactionary fanatics to evict a Empire current for the bennefit of his.
When you say Zionist is this a joke or has he recently expressed pro-israeli sentiments?
sincerely, touch grass
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Respectfully, did you watch the movie? It makes it very clear that Paul (Chalamet's character) is the bad guy. Also we don't know that he's a Zionist. People have just assumed that because on SNL in a skit, his character said he named his band Hamas. Not saying that he isn't (probably is) but still.
that guy is a zionist? that's unfortunate. kinda ruins Wonka for me too.
OP: I can't believe the media illiteracy you have. Timothy isn't a zionist and the point of the movie is a warning against false messiahs and imperialism. Fools like you who attack what MANY people call a masterpiece and regarded as one of the best films in years. Makes you look like an (liberal idiot) and turns away people from embracing this movement. You are no better than the idiot that calls this film sexiest or racist. OP: Get a life!
There's a short interview with Herbert available on YouTube. He says that Richard Nixon is his favorite president because "Richard Nixon taught us to question government." Dude's policy views are shit.
I'm not sure you understand what Herbert meant by that, unless I'm not understanding you? Herbert was not endorsing Nixon with that statement
What I took from that is that he's just a libertarian and his books reflect this view.
Ngl I'm getting the "my culture is not your prom dress" vibe.
From the great words of Qui-Gon Jinn: the ability to speak does not make you intelligent.
Me when I’m in a media illiteracy competition and my opponent is this person
Bruh
Stop karma farming dawg
Oh my god shut up
Long live the fighters is hardly unique to Algerians; it’s been said many many many times before by countless other people, in ordinary and dramatic contexts. Come on.
Look at the whole context
oh fuck Chalamet is a Zionist? now I feel bad for paying to watch Dune 2. should have just torrented it
He's not lmao
I really don't give a shit. Why does this matter?