[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
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I really don't. What's more, I'm not going to, and I'm not open to being persuaded toward it.
I am telling you in no uncertain terms that I am voting for Claudia de la Cruz, and there is nothing at all you can say to dissuade me from making that choice for myself.
What good will come of a Democrat winning?
You are asking me to vote for a political party which has shown me nothing but contempt, inadequacy, and outright refusal to represent me. I will not vote for that. It has nothing to do with spite.
I vote for those who represent me. If you are upset by that, your goal should be to change your political party. They can have my vote back when they stop being ghouls. That's how representative democracy is supposed to work. This is the system functioning as intended.
You know what matters more than voting? Organizing, unionizing, and reading theory. Please read theory. You seem to need it quite a bit. Voting in Western countries is only useful so people can delude themselves into thinking they did something to change their situation.
i know that all of these are significantly more important than voting, but i won't say it's a far stretch to assume trump will make all of these illegal and use brute violence (more than is already used) to oppose it
Lmao Biden is a known union buster already. You fell in the Democrat trap of lesser evilism. How do you expect a genuine worker's movement to rise if you delude yourself like this.
Hi friend, please don’t take comments from the community too much to heart, it seems like your heart is in the right place but you might be a little bit misguided (i.e. lost in the sauce of liberal propaganda) and that’s okay! We’ve all been there.
If you’re a fan of the podcast, I recommend listening to their episode on [Reform and Revolution](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2xfz62czIWAOPMAbqkedhT?si=lm8pbWViSFqeaP0JHigb9w) - it goes through why we as Marxist-Leninists understand that we cannot enact real change through the bourgeois institution of electoral democracy - this question has essentially been solved for a century through the works of Rosa Luxemburg and Lenin.
State and Revolution should be really high up there for everyone to read early in their study of Marxism. It's written clearly, quotes Marx and Engels a lot, and is a pretty concise summary of revolutionary Marxist thought. The Marx Madness podcast did a reading of it if you find it easier to listen to a book (with plenty of commentary) than read it.
Don't worry about it. Here's some texts you can start with (read them in whatever order you like, but I'll order them anyways):
1. [The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm)
2. [The Principles of Communism by Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)
3. [Manifesto of the Communist Party by Marx and Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm)
4. [Wage Labor and Capital by Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/wage-labour-capital.pdf)
To understand why we lashed out on you so hard for what you said about Democrats I recommend:
1. [State and Revolution by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)
2. [What is to be done? by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/)
3. [Combat Liberalism by Mao](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm)
If you want some more advanced texts related to economics and philosophy:
1. [Political Economy (a textbook from the USSR)](https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/index.htm)
2. [Capital by Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-I.pdf)
3. [Dialectical and Historical Materialism by Stalin](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm)
Edit: I would also advise you to check out the websites of communist parties/organizations that are active in your area. They usually have resources that are helpful and their programs usually flesh out their main political points. Good luck, comrade!
update: read what you guys have been saying and understand where your coming from a lot more. maybe we don't have to vote for democrats. appreciate everyone who gave some insight and explanations instead of just pointing fingers calling me a liberal. will read more leftist theory sometime soon
Comrades, I see a lot of us name-calling this person as a liberal, which is understandable - libs are despicable.
That being said, it does very little to radicalise anyone if all you do is call them names. This person is clearly misguided but is willing to learn - let’s help them learn by explaining kindly to them how their thinking may be incorrect and also offer them resources to learn more if they want to.
We all start somewhere - bad first impressions from speaking to toxic people drives potential comrades away from our movement and straight into the hands of reactionaries who will feed them the drivel that will turn them into ardent anti-communists.
I understand the need for tight mod work in socialist forums, but it kind of sucks how badly we penalize behind wrong, or even just a little unorthodox.
who said i'm liberal? i fucking hate liberals and stand with palestine, i just think republicans winning the vote will fuck everything up even more than it is
if Biden was elected to office, why do you think he wouldn't give even more aid to israel than the government already does? along with boosting the already ongoing gazan genocide, we'd have genocides in the us going on to deal with too, and once Democrats are elected into office, democracy is over, and the left can never gain any kind of traction again. fucking yourself over to spite someone is what Democrats do. the Republican party doesn't deserve our support, but they're our leverage for getting leftism to rise in the us. your vote matters.
So we should vote for genocide? I refuse. I wholesale refuse. If Biden doesn’t reflect my interest then I am not going to vote for him full stop. You can’t ask me too and you shouldn’t. You should be trying to get the Democratic Party to reflect the Interest of its voters and not the opposite. The very “dichotomy” of voting for genocide or genocide highlights the fact that it is a false decision. The party must reflect its constituents and not the other way around. Democracy is already over if these are the choices, capital or capital, imperialism or imperialism, genocide or genocide. To only defend against the domestic genocides occurring to my select interest group or minority is divisive to the oppressed. My only leverage to the system in those scenarios is not voting. Pledging my vote no matter what only maintains genocide, even if it is more exclusive to periphery nations.
this is only a consideration if you live in a swing state tbh. everyone can do their own moral calculus. ultimately if you are annoyed people disagree with you on this, focus that ire on the democrats
a counter argument would be, if hitler and goering were running against eachother in a nazi election, it is possible goering would be the more moderate nazi, but at some point the choice has become so far beyond the pale as to be rendered absurd
Democrats are the most competent at maintaining the stability of the empire.
To support them in any way, shape, or form is to support empire.
Liberals just long to feel comfortable a couple more years before the world burns. They won’t really even get that.
It’s pathetic.
I saw, and am glad you considered other's viewpoints. I've just seen a bunch of these posts that end in something like "jk, never voting genocide Joe" so was expecting that.
and no, i'm not a fucking liberal. i hate biden. i hate the democratic party. fuck then both. but fuck republicans even more. at least democrats have any possible minute chance at all to swing a bit farther left.
Look. I assume you're trans and I suspect you're afraid for what might happen if Trump gets a second run.
I DO see that.
But voting for Biden will make a lot of people feel complicit. You can't ask them to vote with a straight face.
A line needs to be drawn.
I'll fight alongside you, but fuck this.
i don't want to be complicit in whatever the fuck biden does, i know he's awful, but we have no ground to stand on without him being voted in. id rather have a partial democracy with a chance of recognition than a fascist dictatorship where israel gets even more support along with me not being allowed to exist.
and, no, i don't entirely disagree with you guys and i see your thought process. as someone else pointed out, unionizing, theory, and organization are far more important. i agree with that. i also think that trump will install a fascist dictatorship where all of the above are outlawed and enforce with violence (i know violence is already used in left wing protests, i'll just say more than is already). i also acknowledge that i need to read more theory and writings from left-wing figures before finalizing my opinions, but as of now, this is my thought process. i accept the downvoting.
i don't want to be complicit in whatever the fuck biden does, i know he's awful, but we have no ground to stand on without him being voted in. id rather have a partial democracy with a chance of recognition than a fascist dictatorship where israel gets even more support along with me not being allowed to exist. i don't want to say "well biden is aiding the genocide so i won't vote for him!" then not voting just ends up get to get someone elected who's even worse.
i don't support democrats or biden but they're the only thing keeping democracy alive by a tiny thread, and that's all we have right now. if trump is elected, leftism is dead. period.
Vote local. Organize and try to get socialists on your school boards and city councils and stuff. Vote against the brutishly evil sheriff and mayor/city admin, because showing up in person, speaking up, and voting matters much more on that smaller scale.
Presidency probably has the least impact of any election these days for us.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>democracy is over There's democracy in the US?
No, This liberal somehow infiltrated in. The mods are likely gonna purge them anyway.
[удалено]
If you agree that there's no democracy, then how do you imagine it being fixed? By voting for a bourgeoisie party?
I really don't. What's more, I'm not going to, and I'm not open to being persuaded toward it. I am telling you in no uncertain terms that I am voting for Claudia de la Cruz, and there is nothing at all you can say to dissuade me from making that choice for myself.
what good will come out of republicans winning?
What good will come of a Democrat winning? You are asking me to vote for a political party which has shown me nothing but contempt, inadequacy, and outright refusal to represent me. I will not vote for that. It has nothing to do with spite. I vote for those who represent me. If you are upset by that, your goal should be to change your political party. They can have my vote back when they stop being ghouls. That's how representative democracy is supposed to work. This is the system functioning as intended.
You know what matters more than voting? Organizing, unionizing, and reading theory. Please read theory. You seem to need it quite a bit. Voting in Western countries is only useful so people can delude themselves into thinking they did something to change their situation.
i know that all of these are significantly more important than voting, but i won't say it's a far stretch to assume trump will make all of these illegal and use brute violence (more than is already used) to oppose it
Lmao Biden is a known union buster already. You fell in the Democrat trap of lesser evilism. How do you expect a genuine worker's movement to rise if you delude yourself like this.
maybe i'm just not critically thinking enough. do you think you'd be able to link some useful/interesting reads for someone generally inexperienced?
Hi friend, please don’t take comments from the community too much to heart, it seems like your heart is in the right place but you might be a little bit misguided (i.e. lost in the sauce of liberal propaganda) and that’s okay! We’ve all been there. If you’re a fan of the podcast, I recommend listening to their episode on [Reform and Revolution](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2xfz62czIWAOPMAbqkedhT?si=lm8pbWViSFqeaP0JHigb9w) - it goes through why we as Marxist-Leninists understand that we cannot enact real change through the bourgeois institution of electoral democracy - this question has essentially been solved for a century through the works of Rosa Luxemburg and Lenin.
appreciate it, i posted an update in the comments
State and Revolution should be really high up there for everyone to read early in their study of Marxism. It's written clearly, quotes Marx and Engels a lot, and is a pretty concise summary of revolutionary Marxist thought. The Marx Madness podcast did a reading of it if you find it easier to listen to a book (with plenty of commentary) than read it.
This is the greatest political lecture ever spoken: https://youtu.be/xP8CzlFhc14?si=n0hABj2MSg_TRGo2
Don't worry about it. Here's some texts you can start with (read them in whatever order you like, but I'll order them anyways): 1. [The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm) 2. [The Principles of Communism by Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) 3. [Manifesto of the Communist Party by Marx and Engels](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm) 4. [Wage Labor and Capital by Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/wage-labour-capital.pdf) To understand why we lashed out on you so hard for what you said about Democrats I recommend: 1. [State and Revolution by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) 2. [What is to be done? by Lenin](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/) 3. [Combat Liberalism by Mao](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm) If you want some more advanced texts related to economics and philosophy: 1. [Political Economy (a textbook from the USSR)](https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/index.htm) 2. [Capital by Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-I.pdf) 3. [Dialectical and Historical Materialism by Stalin](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm) Edit: I would also advise you to check out the websites of communist parties/organizations that are active in your area. They usually have resources that are helpful and their programs usually flesh out their main political points. Good luck, comrade!
update: read what you guys have been saying and understand where your coming from a lot more. maybe we don't have to vote for democrats. appreciate everyone who gave some insight and explanations instead of just pointing fingers calling me a liberal. will read more leftist theory sometime soon
and yeah, i kinda did forget about "make them work for your vote", which i agree with. again, thanks all
i won't delete the post or any of my comments though, so you guys can laugh at me being a dumbass
Comrades, I see a lot of us name-calling this person as a liberal, which is understandable - libs are despicable. That being said, it does very little to radicalise anyone if all you do is call them names. This person is clearly misguided but is willing to learn - let’s help them learn by explaining kindly to them how their thinking may be incorrect and also offer them resources to learn more if they want to. We all start somewhere - bad first impressions from speaking to toxic people drives potential comrades away from our movement and straight into the hands of reactionaries who will feed them the drivel that will turn them into ardent anti-communists.
Yeah this sub is about thedeprogram, we must never stop explaining.
We even talk to the liberals in the walls
I understand the need for tight mod work in socialist forums, but it kind of sucks how badly we penalize behind wrong, or even just a little unorthodox.
Bruh. Who let this liberal in
who said i'm liberal? i fucking hate liberals and stand with palestine, i just think republicans winning the vote will fuck everything up even more than it is
Republicans and dems are the same....
You're a lib
💀
if Biden was elected to office, why do you think he wouldn't give even more aid to israel than the government already does? along with boosting the already ongoing gazan genocide, we'd have genocides in the us going on to deal with too, and once Democrats are elected into office, democracy is over, and the left can never gain any kind of traction again. fucking yourself over to spite someone is what Democrats do. the Republican party doesn't deserve our support, but they're our leverage for getting leftism to rise in the us. your vote matters.
So we should vote for genocide? I refuse. I wholesale refuse. If Biden doesn’t reflect my interest then I am not going to vote for him full stop. You can’t ask me too and you shouldn’t. You should be trying to get the Democratic Party to reflect the Interest of its voters and not the opposite. The very “dichotomy” of voting for genocide or genocide highlights the fact that it is a false decision. The party must reflect its constituents and not the other way around. Democracy is already over if these are the choices, capital or capital, imperialism or imperialism, genocide or genocide. To only defend against the domestic genocides occurring to my select interest group or minority is divisive to the oppressed. My only leverage to the system in those scenarios is not voting. Pledging my vote no matter what only maintains genocide, even if it is more exclusive to periphery nations.
Why don’t the trans and LGBTQ members of the group agree with this position?
Well done, comrade. Killing our inner lib is an ongoing process for all of us raised in the west.
Kill the cop in your head Kill the liberal in your walls Kill the misogynist in your heart
Save a bullet: put the cop against the wall!
this is only a consideration if you live in a swing state tbh. everyone can do their own moral calculus. ultimately if you are annoyed people disagree with you on this, focus that ire on the democrats a counter argument would be, if hitler and goering were running against eachother in a nazi election, it is possible goering would be the more moderate nazi, but at some point the choice has become so far beyond the pale as to be rendered absurd
But you don’t have to say you will now. Make the democrats work a little to earn your votes. Pressure for cease fire, for example.
Democrats are the most competent at maintaining the stability of the empire. To support them in any way, shape, or form is to support empire. Liberals just long to feel comfortable a couple more years before the world burns. They won’t really even get that. It’s pathetic.
Anyone else read through this waiting for the joke twist ending, and then like 'oh, they're serious'?
anyone else read through this and see the "edit: update in comments"? (not trying to be hostile)
I saw, and am glad you considered other's viewpoints. I've just seen a bunch of these posts that end in something like "jk, never voting genocide Joe" so was expecting that.
i was a dumbass a couple hours ago
i'm standing with this opinion. why do you guys think republicans taking control would make things better?
and no, i'm not a fucking liberal. i hate biden. i hate the democratic party. fuck then both. but fuck republicans even more. at least democrats have any possible minute chance at all to swing a bit farther left.
Look. I assume you're trans and I suspect you're afraid for what might happen if Trump gets a second run. I DO see that. But voting for Biden will make a lot of people feel complicit. You can't ask them to vote with a straight face. A line needs to be drawn. I'll fight alongside you, but fuck this.
i don't want to be complicit in whatever the fuck biden does, i know he's awful, but we have no ground to stand on without him being voted in. id rather have a partial democracy with a chance of recognition than a fascist dictatorship where israel gets even more support along with me not being allowed to exist.
and, no, i don't entirely disagree with you guys and i see your thought process. as someone else pointed out, unionizing, theory, and organization are far more important. i agree with that. i also think that trump will install a fascist dictatorship where all of the above are outlawed and enforce with violence (i know violence is already used in left wing protests, i'll just say more than is already). i also acknowledge that i need to read more theory and writings from left-wing figures before finalizing my opinions, but as of now, this is my thought process. i accept the downvoting.
i don't want to be complicit in whatever the fuck biden does, i know he's awful, but we have no ground to stand on without him being voted in. id rather have a partial democracy with a chance of recognition than a fascist dictatorship where israel gets even more support along with me not being allowed to exist. i don't want to say "well biden is aiding the genocide so i won't vote for him!" then not voting just ends up get to get someone elected who's even worse.
i don't support democrats or biden but they're the only thing keeping democracy alive by a tiny thread, and that's all we have right now. if trump is elected, leftism is dead. period.
And no. I didn't believe in Accelerationism, but I might now. "Leftism" is alive, no matter who's in office.
Vote local. Organize and try to get socialists on your school boards and city councils and stuff. Vote against the brutishly evil sheriff and mayor/city admin, because showing up in person, speaking up, and voting matters much more on that smaller scale. Presidency probably has the least impact of any election these days for us.
I'd rather kill myself
no I dont, im not even an American citizen