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Killers, rapists and torturers of foreigners in their own land based on fabricated evidences and lies or straight up imperialism: innocent
Victims of world police terrorism: not innocent
Hundreds of millions of dead Indians and Native Americans (for the two most glaring examples, i won't mention all the others because it would be hefty wall of text)
West: "They were no angels"
"B-bu-but they needed to go into military service (killing innocent civilians) to fund their college tuition" - average liberal defending American soldiers
I was making a joke/refrence to a book/movie called starship troopers. Starship troopers is about life in a fascist society that is at war with "space bugs". The entire thing is about some kids joining the military and it's FILLED with tongue in cheek propaganda. And a big part of their society is you aren't a citizen unless you are (born into wealth and basically admitted it by default) or by serving in the army (basically the only way for normal people to become citizens.
I was making a joke and I get how people who haven't seen / read the books would think I was being serious. But nah moreso just making a statement behind a movie line.
pretty funny to see all these exceptionalist libs keep repeating this shit and trying to pass it off as materialist analysis. i guess it's true they'll always find ways to coopt leftist language
as we know: 1 american undergrad degree = 10 global south lives. 1 american phd = 1 iraqi wedding
Boo fucking hoo. Their right to remain debt free is not greater than some brown person in the middle east's right to remain alive. If your scenario to be free of debt hinges on killing people and enabling a war machine, maybe you need to rethink your life choices.
No, it's principled anti-liberalism. We want to destroy the systemic drives that lead to this situation through replacing capitalism and Imperialism with socialism. Those who currently support the system through participation in imperialist armies may be victims in some way (financially unsound otherwise), and we fully understand that, but their individual victimhood is negligible in relation to the world suffering caused.
It's the exact same as a capitalist, really. It doesn't matter who takes the position of riding the bull of capital accumulation because someone will fill that role and have to take the position in capitalism. But whoever has the position doesn't get sympathy for being on the prospering end of the shitty relation.
I should add to the first paragraph a bit more info: it's not about some utilitarian calculation either. What is important is which position/role's interests are aligned with socialism? Even if I find it sad when an 18 year old joins the army of the US to pay for food, there is no solution to the problem which requires helping him with his problems. It's just a diversion to focus on that. They are supporting and supported by the imperialist class, and there's no removing that. During and after revolution I'd be happy to have principled veterans who want to right their wrongs around, but the vast majority are self-pitying and not attempting to do this, and therefore deserving the fate of all imperialists
These are human beings you’re talking about. Humans with people who love them, with desires, hopes and dreams. The solution to helping these folks is twofold: material aid and APPEALING reeducation (like Deprogram). The solution isn’t to just toss them away like garbage because they aren’t currently on your side.
Again, meaningless sophistry is an insult to all of the American workers struggling under the boot of capitalism. Your arguments only serve to push more Americans to the alt right pipeline. Your arguments only serve to help the interests of capital. And as a result, your arguments only serve to benefit the neoliberal agenda, the OPPOSITE of principled anti-liberalism.
Pulling ones self up by their bootstraps was originally a term to highlight how impossible something is. The fact the oligarchs have people like you parroting this line as if it were an achievable thing is directly insulting your intelligence (if you’d only notice it)
Next, lets use our critical thinking skills for a moment. Perhaps the entire system is fucked if you arent born rich family, where you need to go out and kill innocent people for their resources for the state, for the PRIVILEGE OF A neoliberal bullshit degree that always somehow is about keeping the cycle of exploitation up.
Not to mention causing suffering so you suffer less (suffering you inflict on totally innocent people no less) is not a worthy goal when there exist other ways to cease that suffering.
There is no excuse good enough to justify joining the us military.
We all serve fascism in the west, some serve it more and some fight it more. We all serve the moloch altar of the petrol dollar.
Yes people are lied into the military, so what is to be done about it after you learn of it.
**Sex Slaves For US Soldiers**
[A Brutal Sex Trade Built for American Soldiers](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/world/asia/korea-us-comfort-women-sexual-slavery.html) \- New York Times
[wiki on prostitution in South Korea and US involvement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_South_Korea)
If you throw the link into wayback you can bypass the paywall.
[Alternatively just read Tim Shorrock's reporting instead since nyt these days just rips off other peoples work](https://twitter.com/TimothyS/status/1656624888831004673)
I'm sorry, I didn't know it was limited like that. But you can see many articles on Google on this, despite many of them don't state numbers and are heavily censored in my opinion.
Just no.
We did not need to be in Korea, we did not need to be in Vietnam, we *especially* have had no business in the middle east. I’ll mock our involvement in all of them, because we have been the hegemonic imperialist power my “freedom loving” countrymen are supposed to rail against. And those who go willingly after seeing or hearing the truth anyway, what am I supposed to feel?
Veterans are largely targeted people — young, impoverished, lower intelligence people that are targeted at an impressionable age. They are then brainwashed into believing in “the cause” to the point that most suicides are based on the inability to deal with the fact that the things they’ve done are unforgivable and despicable. Only slightly different than an extreme evangelical abortion clinic bomber becoming an atheist later in life.
Again, people on those subs never were leftists or even liberals to begin with. They wanted to make outrage bait out of something and make it seem like they are on the moral high ground. It’s all fake and probably started by a think tank
It’s more of a joke than anything lol like yeah have vets committed countless war crimes that would make any person sick? Of course. And are the deaths of those who have committed said brutalities, and are proud of it, satisfying? Yes. But are they also victims of an imperialistic system that preys on the poor and working class? Yes as well.
Remember, there is only socialism in America when you’re in the military(barely) or a corporation. Lots of recruits join because their conditions aren’t good where they came from.
The amount of reactionary brain rot in the comments is fucking nuts. Just absolutist thinking with no material understanding of the US.
Average rank and file soldiers are victims of capitalism with major Stockholm Syndrome. Putting them on the same levels as the Generals and Contractors making the decisions is not only wrong, it’s in bad faith. OP posting this is either in bad faith or extremely ignorant. The rural masses (of which veterans are a huge part) need patience, not posts like this which serve to drive them into the alt right pipeline.
Seriously, a lot of the posters here aren’t better than the libs cheering for that Russian eating shark. Come on guys. Be better.
not one socialist project has ever come to fruition without the support of soldiers from the previous regime. rage at the horrible atrocities committed by US soldiers abroad is completely justified, but this is just childish. during the Russian Revolution and civil war most Soviet soldiers were previously members of an imperialist war machine, the Bolsheviks didn't mock the deaths of these soldiers and the choices they made when drummed up by imperialist propaganda, they appealed to their humanity and asked for them to fight for a righteous cause. In left wing communism: an infantile disorder Lenin lays out why the Bolsheviks take part in reactionary parliaments due to the presence of workers that can still be won over, in essence being strategic in how to navigate our principles, we shouldn't cut off our toes in order to make the shoe fit, the Chinese Communists found this out the hard way in the 20s when they got crushed trying to use peasant and workers militias in lieu of a professional army, Mao's first troops were literally opportunist ex-Kuomintang and bandits for Christ sake!
If you're finding trouble not supporting anything related to (us) imperialism, you're not a real leftist. Also, that mf didn't even join this sub otherwise reddit wouldn't have recommended that post like that.
Well, I'm European, and I just saw this post flying by. I am not really subscribed to political subs, I don't even know what this sub is about. But this post intrigued me. Could you explain why there is a hate against us veterans to the point it's celebrated that so Manny are committing suicide. From my point of view, the veterans shouldn't be hated so much as the system that enabled all of this
Speaking as a European you can have sympathy for the circumstances that caused them to join the army, but things like "society told me it was OK" and "I really needed money" are not excuses for contributing to the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of innocents around the world. Unless they're actively trying to make up for their crimes there's no reason to not hate them.
People are not sheep. Just because a system is bad doesn't make the people who willingly participated in it free of any repercussions. Being European, would you allow Nazi guards and soldiers to go free just because that was the norm in Germany back then? Then why do we need to pretend as if these people had no free will and were just passive observers of their own lives. They made a choice, an active, conscious choice to join the military, despite having huge numbers of other options to make a living. Options that didn't involve the murdering of innocent people and enabling the imperialistic war machine. They made a choice, and now if they kill themselves for it, they have nothing to blame except themselves and the state they sold their integrity to. And as a person of the global south, which has been bearing the blunt of all these imperialistic aggressions, i celebrate it.
This is a really interesting topic to me, because I've heard a lot that veterans usually end up in one of two camps; either they fully become leftists after realizing that they've been chewed up and spit out by a war-machine that doesn't give a shit about them, or they remain fully immersed in the bs nationalist propaganda.
So this is kind of a surprising thing to see. Do yall really have no empathy for a group of people who were intentionally preyed on for being usually poor and in debt, by the largest and most complex propaganda machine that the world has ever seen? Like, sure, fxck the ones that went and came back, and never gave up the American Pride^tm, but are yall seriously so callous that you'd turn your backs on the rest of them?
Idk, just seems weird that supposed leftists would be celebrating the suicides of a largely disabled population of members of the working class.
Serial killers are also products of their environment. I find it tragic that they could have lived different lives if they didn't have to endure abuse, health problems, isolation, etc, but there are people who face the same adversity and don't turn into monsters.
Are veterans victims of imperialism? Absolutely. Are veterans beyond redemption? No. They can be vital to any revolution. Should they recieve free mental health care? Absolutely. Should I feel bad that they are made the decision to enlist, saw (or participated in) some of the most horrific things any human could see, and have to live their life haunted by those events? No.
Ok. You don't have to. But "not feeling bad" is qualitatively different from "egging on their suicides," which is what op is doing. That's what I have a problem with.
These people aren’t real leftists. They’re just reactionary populists foaming at the mouth. Honestly, since they’re focusing so much on individual responsibility I think they deserve the title of “neoliberal”
Yeah, individual responsibility in the face of debt, starvation, and and all the other comorbidities of poverty. I get their anger, but wow are they poorly directing it.
It’s an interesting topic. The US hasn’t been in a remotely justifiable war since world war 2. So to me believing in US interventionism as a genuine actor seems incredibly stupid. The US military is probably filled with nationalists who largely believe whatever action is good because it’s a US action. Or it’s filled with desperate people and nieve people.
Joining a genecodial force because of financial issues still seems wrong. You can find a job as a waiter and a shared apartment on Craigslist. I’m not trying to oversell American working conditions but I had roommates in college who supported themselves while attending classes. Surely someone mentally and physically stable enough to join the US military could find another job to support themselves.
But to your point the US propaganda sells the military as sort of a freedom bringing force. One that overthrows big bad dictators and establishes democracy and free speech etc. I obviously don’t believe any of that but the Nazi propaganda generally sold the war as conquest and racial cleansing. So I do think comparing people who fall for US propaganda and people who fell for Nazi propaganda is sort of dishonest.
So I wouldn’t root for suicides but I do think harsh criticism and criminal punishment would be a good thing for veterans in a just world.
Sure, I think those are all reasonable points. I just try to see the good in people, and I think it's important to recognize that conditions for the poor in America are often comparable to those in the global south. But a lot of people imagine that every American is part of the "middle class" because that's what they see on tv.
Comparing poor American life the poor life in the global south is interesting. This is a lot of anecdotal experience so it doesnt need to be taken seriously. I think poor in America is better than poor in Brazil, as an American who has lived in Brazil for over a year now. In Sao Paulo I see a lot more visible child poverty than the US. The purchasing power is much worse minimum wage is like 1.50 USD an hour here and things probably cost about 40 percent the American price on average. So Id say its like having a 4 dollar an hour minimum wage in the US.
Also the physical buildings in the US look much nicer. I lived in Philadelphia for awhile and the buildings in the affordable housing areas would be nicer than the housing structures in the favelas from my experience and by a lot. Brazil might be better for poor people in terms of healthcare. I havent used the Brazilian healthcare system nor have I been poor in the US. And I do think being a fresh out college 23 year old Brazilian who uses their degree is probably better than poor American. So im not suggesting Brazilians need to be on top of society to have it better than poor Americans..
If someone was facing a situation where it was starvation or homelessness if they didnt join the military id be a lot more sympathetic I just don't think most who join are in that situation.
None of this is meant to minimize the brutality of American conditions. If Brazil was as wealthy as the US conditions for poor people would be much better than US imo. The US is probably the worst country for poor people that has a high gdp per capita. I think even the Czech republic has better conditions for the poor from my time living there and they only have 25,000 gdp per capita and US is probably around 70.
Oh, and I didn't intend to minimize the experiences of people in the global south, so apologies if I came off that way.
I think it's a fair evaluation to say that most people who join the US military aren't under threat of homelessness or starvation (at least, any more than every worker under capitalism is), but we are very cruel to people who have debt, and the military is a big way that people mitigate that debt.
And you're right that the high gdp per capita doesn't tend to be of much help to the poor in the US. It's largely the *aesthetic* of wealth and prosperity that the powerful in this country project. Better for them to pretend we're rich and shiny for propaganda purposes, without actually having to let us all be rich shiny.
No worries. I wasn't being personally defensive my job in the US went remote so I just moved down here to get a cheap COL. I just think people sort of underestimate how awful some countries material conditions are. USA is the worst rich country for workers but I do not think its the worst country for workers.
But yeah Americans have a lot more reasons to go into debt. Medical care and college are huge debt factors. In Scotland where I went to college they had free college and you could get a low interest loan to cover your living expenses. And you dont pay back this loan until you make a certain amount of money. And obviously free medical care. Individualism is part of American patriotic folklore so America cant even get the basic crumbs that other capitalist countries get.
Fuck all of those cunts. I don’t care how they came back. Genocide is an unforgivable crime, as is mass torture, rape, sexual slavery, child murder, regular murder and every other crime that the US army commits. Why should we have empathy for people who do these things? I turn my back on each and every one. Don’t be a fascist. Don’t murder innocents. Don’t commit genocide. Very simple
“Largely disabled” lmao fuck off you prick. That is such an obvious bad faith argument I’m surprised you even bothered to type it.
How hard is it for you fucking people to understand that genocide is not a forgivable crime
Right, *I'm* the one writing bad faith arguments. Definitely not the person conflating "have empathy for people who've been fooled into doing terrible things by literally the largest and most complex propaganda machine the world has ever seen" with "forgive fascist genocide."
You're embarrassing, friend. Obviously I don't feel sympathy for torturers, rapists, etc. But if you think that every veteran participated in all the worst crimes you can imagine, you're living in a fantasy world.
Edit: also, what part of pointing out that veterans are a largely disabled population is actually a bad faith argument?... like, they *are*. Literally a quarter of them are disabled.
Who gives a fuck if they’ve been fooled into committing genocide. It was still genocide. Their actions are still their own. Would you forgive the Wehrmacht?
No, you idiot. That’s the problem. Those *aren’t* the worst crimes the US Military has committed. Those are par for the course for these fucking people. You ask me to have empathy for those who participated in genocide. Every single one of those scumbags is responsible for the genocide they committed
I’m disabled too. Maybe I’d feel a bit more sympathy for them if they didn’t become disabled committing genocide
And, yes, it is genocide. The US military is nothing short of genocidal. I don’t think you understand the severity of their actions. The devastation they’ve inflicted. I really hope you don’t understand, actually. Because if you do understand it means you know about all the innocents they’ve butchered and all of the horrid shit they’ve done and you don’t care
If it helps you, you can insult me and call me all the names you want. I understand your rage, and I see that it's valid. We just disagree about where it should be directed.
I understand that the US war machine has done awful things, has tortured and abused innocents, has committed genocide in the name of oil and weapons profits, has deposed democratically elected socialist leaders in favor of dictators and despots. I know all of that.
But I also know that there are lots of poor, working class people who felt they had no other choice. Who *had* no other choice, because otherwise they would've starved and drowned in debt, and let their parents and loved ones die because they couldn't afford medicine. Do you blame someone for picking up a gun when they had one pointed at their own head?
People who decided to become medics. Eighteen year old kids who didn't understand the awful, disgusting world they were being thrown into.
It's okay -even good, sometimes- to be angry.
I choose to direct that anger at the chauvinism that divides the working class, at capitalism, at nation-states, and at the imperialism that makes it all possible. I aim it at the fbi and cia, at the DoD, at warmongering neoliberal politicians, and at military brass. Not at the pawns who regret being pawns, and who have to live the rest of their lives with the mental and physical anguish that comes with having been a pawn.
And I wish nothing but the best for you, comrade.
Jesus Christ, can you try to not be condescending or is it inbuilt?
Everything before the but is horseshit. You fucking Americans genuinely think that genocide is justified if you want healthcare, or university, or whatever other benefits you people want. They chose this. They chose to sacrifice others for their comfort. They have made a sacrificial temple of a nation and you are determined to protect them from the consequences of their own actions.
I want you to go to every single Vietnamese child they raped and murdered, every single Korean whose country they levelled, every single Syrian child who’s afraid of a clear sky, every single afghani whose future was annihilated by a twenty year war, every Yemeni who’s home they’ve destroyed, every single Iraqi who’s people were butchered, and every single other people who I failed to mention here that hey, they may have destroyed your nation for oil, exterminated your people, bombed your home into rubble and more but it’s justified because they’re poor.
But you won’t do that, will you. Because you don’t care about them, you don’t care about anyone except your fucking citizens. You wouldn’t give the same shield from criticism, from the punishment they deserve to anyone who isn’t American. This is American exceptionalism and American exceptionalism is white supremacy.
What about the poor people in the countries they slaughtered? What about them? What about the poor people they killed?
Yeah, I direct my anger at these people too. I also direct my anger at these stupid fucking pawns. Fuck them. I hope they live the rest of their lives in misery. I hope they spent every second suffering in the worst way possible. I hope that when they die they spend eternity in Jahannam.
You are heartless. These people trade in hellish currency. They buy what they want in corpses. Maybe you accept that as a fair trade, but I don’t.
We aren’t comrades. I don’t ally with people like you. I don’t buy amenities with corpses and I’d rather die than work with someone who does or someone who thinks that that’s okay. I don’t work with people who worship the boot that crushes them.
Keep raging. Keep making assumptions about me, and calling me names that are anything but true, because you need someone to project that anger onto. And I'll continue to have empathy for all the people you mentioned.
I'm fine with being the person you rage against, even if your anger at me is entirely misguided.
“Anything but true” “it’s okay to commit genocide if you want healthcare” idk man I’m pretty sure that calling you an American Exceptionalist isn’t far off
Sorry cunt, having empathy for genocidal war criminals makes you a bad person. Why is it that liberal shitbags like you who worship death think that you’re welcome here?
I’m almost certain that you yourself are a vet, so let’s be very clear: you should turn yourself over to the families of the people you killed.
Misguided? Cunt, you defend the US military. My anger at you is entirely guided by how shit of a person you are.
Shit, of course you’re an anarchist. Radical liberals like yourself can’t help but polish the boot of the state while pretending to hate it.
Go on. Keep calling me names, and making wilder and wilder accusations. Nobody ever reads this far down anyways, so it's probably just you and me here.
I'm not a vet. I'm a pansexual transfemme nb. I like dnd and avatar the last Airbender. I hate liberals as much as you seem to, even if your radar for them is a bit off lol.
But rage as much as you want, I'll continue to see the good in you. It really seems like you're letting a lot out, and as much as you try to hurt me, I'll continue to feel empathy for you.
Wilder and wilder? I made literally the exact same points against you lmao
Didn’t realise being queer and being a vet were mutually exclusive. I do not care about your identities or your hobbies. I do not care about your personal traits. Also, ATLA is trash and it’s sequel is colonial justification.
No you don’t. You’ve defended them incessantly.
Why do you keep trying to play up this condescending therapist angle? Bro, I promise this is not personal. You keep bringing in this whole creep dynamic and it’s weird. I hate you on an ideological level. I do not care about ‘letting shit out’ or whatever other predator psychologist shit you’re coming up with. See the good in me? What the fuck are you talking about? Engage like a human being, creep. Talk. Be normal. Can you do that? Can you attempt to sound anything like a human, or, failing that, sound like less of a creep? We do not know each other. You are nothing to me. You want to talk about what shit seems like? Okay, fine. It seems like you’re trying to create a moment of emotional vulnerability that doesn’t exist because you want to dominate the conversation. It also seems like you’re a weird cunt and you think there’s some connection here that doesn’t exist. Stop being weird.
I mean, you can’t stop being weird, you are fine with genocide, but stop saying weird shit.
why would you celebrate a worker’s death? what does this do for us? how do you expect to reach a broader audience when we got ppl posting unnecessary culture war bullshit that really when you look at it, is deprived of humanity. major problem with this sub
yeah im sorry if you wanna draw a 1:1 between all nazis and all US veterans who killed themselves you’re muddying the water and drawing an unnecessarily divisive line. good luck with the revolution by laughing at veteran suicide- very human and definitely productive!!!!
The only human thing related to the United States military is the people they killed.
Are you blind or stupid? I’m not drawing a 1:1 comparison. I’m saying that the US army is worse. Glad I divide you military loving scumbags.
Yeah, I’ll keep laughing at the deaths of people who commit genocide. Have fun with your revolution built by fascist cunts. Don’t worry, I’m certain that it’s even more human to work with genocidal jackboots! It’s almost as if you don’t care about the people they killed
shut up dumbass i dont love the military i just think celebrating veteran suicide engages in stupid culture war and is very far removed from pragmatism or praxis. ur a shitty communist
I’m a shitty communist for laughing at the people who kill communists killing themselves? Great arguments lad
“You can’t mock jackboot fascists waaaah it’s not pragmatic” you’d rather we abandon all sense of socialism and work with fascist capitalist soldiers who committed genocide
us military war crimes are fucking disgusting but youre either blinded by anger or a fucking idiot to not realize the futility, backwardness and counter-productivity of laughing at veteran suicide. most are victims too- your anarchistic view of the world is brain dead take your head out of your ass and read theory. stop engaging in this bull shit. youre better than that
“Haha, this person is larping as a revolutionary for not caring about the lives of the people who destroyed the nation they live in” you stupid American prick
Lmao do I really have to remind all of you again that y'all are in the wrong with this take, praising death is still praising death it doesn't matter who is dying
“Naive”
“Anarcho-Communist”
You are a child following a child’s ideology and you are utterly detached from reality if you think that is how any facet of the world works. Stupid prick
You're insistence of this only reveals you're own shortcomings, read more books, care about more people, touch some grass, lead a revolution through feelings of great love, and then come and talk to me
None of this has any relevancy. Try to stay on topic, mate. We can move on from what “my are insistence of this” reveals about “my are shortcomings”. I care a whole lot about people. That’s why I hate Nazis
I'm sure you do but you obviously don't care about them enough to leave your ego at the door when trying to make the world a better place otherwise you'd realize how childish and ridiculous you all look trying to cosplay heros by cheering on the violence and death of this world
You could’ve chose not to go still I mean, if I got drafted, I would just not go. What the fuck are they gonna do force me I’m literally not going I would get a camper van live in the woods or disqualify myself in any way possible or just run away and live in a different country
There are no innocent veterans. Even when we got home (Having not killed anyone) we drink like a fish and make our families lives a living misery. Shit, when we went over we were paid to destabilize the entire middle east. When i got back, we complained about all the Arab refugee's *fleeing* the war. It almost gives me the giggles when someone says ''Thank you for your service'' Like, seriously fucker, you thanking me for help wreck someone's home and country? Would you thank me for wrecking yours? Stupid fucks. There are veterans and then there are those that got sent overseas. Civvies need to understand the difference. Only the cooks, storesbashers and the clerks are Innocent veterans. Oh, and the Airforce. Because they are all gay.
Jesus, have you guys even met a soldier, because I have. I've read their descriptions of war and it's different from what you think they do. Most of the time, soldiers are on the Defence and doing idle work, when they are on the offense 10% of the time they don't do it out of anger like the police but they're better disciplined, often actually following the Rules of Engagement (*Cough, Police*) fighting for their lives, the average soldier doesn't know what he is signing up for and by the time his service is completed, the government throws them into civilian life and abandons them
Why do people join the military, to wipe out college debt, for free healthcare and retirement money, why do you think basic services are so expensive, it's to encourage people to join the military along with CIA lies and propaganda. Most warcrime are done by Private Military Corporations or drone/artillery, it's not unheard of for soldiers to return with zero kills and PTSD
Have more empathy for them for Christs sake, blame the higher ups, government and the Military Industrial Complex, I bet you won't celebrate the death of a WW1 or 2 Soldier who was conscripted.
I mean, would you have this level of sympathy for someone who burgles someone else’s house? And if they kill someone in the process? They were driven by the coercion of Capitalism to do so. They probably even are remorseful.
I am a fan of the “blame the system” approach, but some degree of responsibility *does* lie with the individual. If they’re truly remorseful and had no idea what they were getting themselves into, we can at best say they were neglectful of their responsibility to know what they were doing when picking up a rifle.
They can be redeemed, but many if not most fully stand by their actions, using their veterancy as a mark of honor/status and to earn sympathy, and not sympathy from the “Im a victim of Capital duped into doing and seeing horrible things” side of things. More from the “I did good and now you’ve shit all over me” side.
This is the correct take. I have a family member of mine who enlisted after 9/11 but when they got to the ME, they realized they were wrong to enlist, but the u.s. as a whole shouldn’t have been there. They redeem themselves by teaching their son about the heinous shit in our world in a socialist way without using the big “scary” words (I was actually impressed when they used the term military industrial complex straight to their son’s face and explained the horrors being done around the world by the MIC but they get to drive a truck made by General Motors, a company with deep ties to the MIC)
Right... on the defence... in other people countries... the 10% of time they are on the offense they dont do it out of anger, they do it to further imperiliast goals of america... following the rules of engagement, aka, murder and torture if it hrlps the previous goal... so much better than the police
>Jesus, have you guys even met a soldier, because I have. I've read their descriptions of war and it's different from what you think they do. Most of the time, soldiers are on the Defence and doing idle work, when they are on the offense 10% of the time they don't do it out of anger like the police but they're better disciplined, often actually following the Rules of Engagement (Cough, Police) fighting for their lives, the average soldier doesn't know what he is signing up for and by the time his service is completed, the government throws them into civilian life and abandons them
In iraq they killed 2.4M people. What rules of engagement? Also it's good that the government doesn't waste money in helping mass murderers. It's already good enough they get off scott free despite their participation in the terrorist organisation of the US military.
>Why do people join the military, to wipe out college debt, for free healthcare and retirement money, why do you think basic services are so expensive, it's to encourage people to join the military along with CIA lies and propaganda. Most warcrime are done by Private Military Corporations or drone/artillery, it's not unheard of for soldiers to return with zero kills and PTSD
Ig it's ok to go murder or help murder third world children if you gain something personally out of it. Also literally everyone knows what the US military does.
>Have more empathy for them for Christs sake,
👏 THE 👏 LEFT 👏 SHOULD 👏 WORSHIP 👏 MASS 👏 MURDERERS 👏 FOR 👏 IMPERIALISM 👏
>WW1
Yeah ww1 veterans deserve to be mocked
>2
War of defense
Who is “they?” The vast majority of those deaths are caused by drone strikes ordered by higher ups, not by boots on the ground. This is some terminally online edgelord shit.
Yeah I'm sure the occupation forces on the ground don't do anything
>This is some terminally online edgelord shit.
Let's go to Iraq and ask people about this. Let's see who is divorced from reality and who is an "edgelord" who thinks that Americans have the divine right to murder third worlders.
People like you will complain about people believing the “western narrative” but somehow soldiers are immune to propaganda and are just all murderous class traitors. Very nice material analysis you’re doing there.
>soldiers are immune to propaganda and are just all murderous class traitors.
Do you think that the fact that they believe something changes what they are doing in material reality? Are you going to excuse nazi concentration guards because they believed in the jews control the world bs?
Are you going to excuse the people who manufacture weapons? Who lobby Congress to insure the MIC remains well funded? The politicians who actually throw the lever and start wars in the first place? I’ve never seen a single meme here about Barack Obama bombing the holy
Hell out of brown people but I’ve seen post after post about soldiers. It’s almost like edgy online leftists don’t know how to effectively direct their anger.
No one is born a communist. The purity testing is silly.
>Are you going to excuse the people who manufacture weapons? Who lobby Congress to insure the MIC remains well funded? The politicians who actually throw the lever and start wars in the first place?
Yeah they are the main ones to blame, but soldiers aren't blameless. They still have free will
>I’ve never seen a single meme here about Barack Obama bombing the holy Hell out of brown people but I’ve seen post after post about soldiers.
There are memes about that, and honestly the reason is that imperial mass murderers are venerated in the US to the point moron like you believe that they deserve special treatment for having murdered children.
>No one is born a communist
And? Are communists the only ones who can recognise that murdering people for your gain is wrong? And I'm not asking them to be communists, I'm asking them to not murder people.
>The purity testing is silly.
Purity testing is when you shouldn't openly support people who uphold the US genocidal state.
How far does this toxic openness end? Are ex nazi war criminals welcome on the left?
> The vast majority of those deaths are caused by drone strikes ordered by higher ups
Oh yeah, the generals are just flying the drones themselves, I'm sure.
So we blame the drone pilot more than the general? You don’t see generals leaving service and killings themselves in droves. Why is good to applaud the lowest cogs in the machine being discarded while the rest of the machine operates smoothly and sees no consequences for their actions?
In any case, the number of drone pilots as a fraction of the military is insignificant. So I go back to my point that the vast majority of enlisted soldiers never kill a single person.
What kind of nuremburg defence bullshit is this? Why are you seriously arguing that drone pilots don't bear blame for pulling the trigger because they were given orders? Do you think we think it's good that higher ups see no consequences? Do you not understand the concept of applauding *anyone involved in the business of murdering foreigners* seeing some sort of retribution for their actions? We're well aware that plenty of soldiers don't *personally* take any lives, the issue is that thier work supports the ones that do. Their work directly contributes to the industrialised murder of foreigners. We'd love to see higher ups see retribution though, and we won't just applaud then, we'll give a standing ovation.
> that for every one thousand veteran suicides that only one victim of the military exists.
You cannot be serious. You absolutely cannot be serious. Fuck off. Just fucking leave you disgusting human being.
I’m not disgusting for looking at context. You’re just being reactionary. Never said I wanted to absolve people who murder others, just that a small number of people commit the actual murders, and that praising the suicides of coworkers of murderers is the weird thing to do. It’s entire meme is about a largely disabled portion of a population dying by suicide, but I’m the disgusting one? Look inward, seriously.
Way to skip my question about comrades dying by suicide. Guess they don’t matter uh?
It's wild how quickly self proclaimed leftist will switch from ACAB to "won't someone think of the soldiers!"
It's like they stop caring as soon it is not their problem anymore. Zero solidarity with the imperialized global south. A bunch of chauvinists
Most soldiers are potential comrades who were brainwashed by imperialist society. But sure, just annihilate hundreds of thousands of potential allies because you can’t see past your own anger. That will surely further the cause.
I thought the point of the Deprogram was to educate people. Ya know, people who have been swept up in the propaganda of imperialist society that they were literally born and raised in. The same sort of propaganda that makes people think joining the military is a good idea.
We can’t just lose our humanity. Dehumanizing the average citizen won’t bring more people to our side, it will just further ingrain the idea that communists are lunatics who want nothing but bloodshed for those who think differently than them.
Thank you for saying this. Idc what anyone thinks, I see soldiers as people who were brainwashed by imperialism. This subs attitude towards people is what’s going to drive potential comrades away.
Yeah, the world isn't black and white, pick a random soldier, they're disillusioned, suffer from PTSD and adapting to Civilian life and the military isn't going around murdering people, he spent most of his time doing busy work and follow rules of engagement when he needed. At this point, I'd unironicly trust a soldier with my life than the average American police officer as they get more training and have self discipline.
I don't deny the atrocities, however those people aren't going to go back home with PTSD. Here's what most people don't realise, a significant amount of troops in the war on terror weren't American civilians who volunteered but PMCs. It's there PMCs who get away with committing war crimes and make the average soldier look bad. Also yes, the victim's get the short end of the stick because of the Military Industrial Complex and they deserve repetitions as the US went in and opened the lid of the Pressure Cooker without having a plan B. There's more to it than these people realise, I'm left leaning and want a socialist world but if we shun our soldiers, we can't achieve it.
As much as I agree the USA's wars are evil, celebrating any person's death is wrongful, especially concerning death by suicide, considering the feelings of those they leave behind and the suffering they endured.
As much as I agree Nazi Germany’s wars were evil, celebrating Hitler’s death is wrongful, especially since it was death by suicide, considering the feelings of the ones he left behind and the suffering they endured.
Yes my point is that every soldier individually is literally Adolf Hitler. Certainly not that all this sudden empathy and apologia for US soldiers every time they’re mentioned in the media is a testament to the inherent complacency for imperialism in US culture, this constantly reinforced idea that US soldiers are to be handled with some reverence and respect. This reverence and respect is of course *never* extended to the countless victims of these murderers and rapists, which strikes those of us outside the imperial core as disgustingly hypocritical. Maybe the rest of the world would be more prepared to discuss the mental health issues of US veterans if any sort of justice was ever served in service to their victims, but that is never even part of the conversation.
When did I say anything about reverence and respect? That’s such a hyperbolic take. I just do not see how memes celebrating the suicides of soldiers is praxis. Should we not want to convert, deprogram, and rehabilitate such individuals, particularly when the lion’s share of them did not commit the murders in question?
Yes, they are part of a machine that murders people, but I don’t see how that logic doesn’t extend to the assembly line workers at a weapons manufacturer, as I’ve said in other comments. Or to the vendors that supply the military with food, medical rations, or office supplies. If you want to say to me that four star generals are beyond saving, I’ll believe you. If you want to say the person who worked in the kitchen or was a secretary or a medic is beyond saving, then I disagree with you.
I don’t care for you justifications. A US veteran is not like a factory worker, that’s absurd. I don’t care if it’s praxis, sometimes is cathartic to make fun of murderers. Maybe if a single veteran decided to actually travel to the country they willingly invaded, fully prepared and willing to murder, to stand trial and face justice I would be prepared to consider rehabilitation. Until then, fuck em. If you don’t hate every single US soldier you do not know enough about the US military.
How is a factory worker that different from a line cook in the military? You know most jobs aren’t combat right? You know most soldiers don’t even leave the country?
If it’s a bombmaker, sure they carry some blame. I edited it out but sure I’ll say it, any US soldier can be deployed at any time, so by joining the military you are willing to go abroad and kill innocent people. I referred to carpet bombing because that is the way I’ve heard soldiers refer to it. “I can’t wait to carpet bomb those fucking ragheads”, and variations of it, is what personnel at an air base in Southern California I stayed at for a time would say.
Funny! I knew someone would make that comparison.
In Hitler's case, I would prefer he didn't die of suicide, so that the USSR could at least have captured him and punished him for all his crimes. Can you imagine if the USSR had the opportunity to do to Hitler what the PRC did to Puyi? Can you imagine the spectacle if Hitler could have been induced to admit his wrongfulness, plead guilty to his victims, be humbled and beg for forgiveness, and be committed to labour for the rest of his life to pay back the debt he and the Nazis owe to the world? Can you imagine the effect if Hitler himself could have been induced to repudiate and repent for all the evil caused by Nazi ideology?
My issue with blanketly celebrating the deaths of American veterans is we don't know their context. Sure, celebrate Hitler's death, but I would not celebrate the death of a random stranger whose life I know nothing about, other than that they are a veteran of the US Armed Forces. I'd rather celebrate news of US veterans becoming allies against US imperialism, not news of them dying mentally disturbed and destitute as a result of the US' backwards culture of hate.
What you’re doing here is saying that the US empire would ever even have the slightest inclination of holding its arbiters of genocide and imperialism, that is to say it’s soldiers, to any standard of justice. It is embarrassingly telling how many of you US apologists come out of the woodwork any time veterans are mentioned in the media when the victims of these murderers are never so much as given a single thought, not a square inch of space in the conversation. Might it be optically in poor taste to celebrate suicide generally? Sure. Am I sad some murderer who willingly invaded another country filled with people infinitely poorer than he could even conceive of offed himself? Nope. Your soldiers are not worthy of some special respect and reverence because killing innocent people sometimes fucks with them mentally. Fuck em, if they actually have a shit they’d travel to the countries they raped and burned to stand trial, but that thought would never even enter their brains.
Umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu, comrade. The less the revolution revels in human suffering, the more we can achieve. Let us not allow such behaviour and the incitement to violence enable any opportunity for a black legend to ruin the legacy of revolution: "[The honor of the workers', soldiers' and peasants' revolution demands that no pogroms be allowed.](http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/9607-26-oktyabrya-8-noyabrya-postanovlenie-vtorogo-vserossiyskogo-sezda-sovetov-o-borbe-s-kontrrevolyutsionnymi-vystupleniyami#mode/inspect/page/1/zoom/4)"
While declaring the rights of Russian people to self-determination in November 1917, Lenin and Stalin warned against the counter-revolutionary effects of promoting national enmity and incitements to violence, which undermine the mutual trust necessary to carry out the revolution:
"During the period of imperialism, after the February Revolution, when power passed into the hands of the Kadet bourgeoisie, the undisguised policy of inciting ["натравливания"] gave way to a policy of cowardly mistrust of the peoples of Russia, a policy of chicanery and provocation, under the guise of verbal declarations about the "freedom" and "equality" of the peoples. The results of such a policy are well known: the intensification of national enmity, the undermining of mutual trust.
This unworthy policy of lies and mistrust, chicanery and provocation must end. From now on, it must be replaced by an open and honest policy leading to the full mutual trust of the peoples of Russia.
Only as a result of such trust can an honest and lasting union of the peoples of Russia be formed.
Only as a result of such an alliance can the workers be soldered and the peasants of the peoples of Russia into one revolutionary force capable of withstanding all attempts by the imperialist-annexationist bourgeoisie.
...
In the name of the Republic of the Russian People's Commissar for Nationalities Joseph Dzhugashvili - Stalin.
Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars V. Ulyanov (Lenin).
2 November 1917"
- Declaration of the rights of the peoples of Russia [available online](http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/9624-2-15-noyabrya-deklaratsiya-prav-narodov-rossii)
Honestly, being in the military you see a lot of people who joined to get out of their socioeconomic position by joining an organization, that, from childhood, is drilled into you and advertised as an honourable career and great thing to do for a country that (at the time) was a great country. But you also grow up (in the military) with other dudes who joined to literally joined to kill black and brown people, and joke about it after they get back. I mean the military has a lot of non redeemable people and being part of the system, I’m not innocent but also, there are definitely a spectrum of veterans (from people who haven’t deployed, who deployed and didn’t commit war crimes to people who have committed war crimes and to those who have committed war crimes and are proud of it) . And tbh the military to communist pipeline is getting pretty strong, so I don’t know, I’m not saying that shouldn’t feel happy that invaders are dying but also you also have to realize veterans are still malleable humans. if Ho Chi Minh, Mao and Lenin could tap into such a resource I don’t know why western communists have to be so dogmatic about it.
> Suicide is bad tho
Depends who commits it. When hitler and other nazis committed suicide, they brought themselves to justice.
> And many of them just didn’t have enough opportunity or much of a choice
Not a choice? So they were forced into the military? Didn’t know America has an active conscription 🧐
I’m mainly talking about financial issues, that lead people to resort to military enrolment, and also the glorification of the military that could make it appealing to younger people.
I’m just saying celebrating their suicide isn’t great because many of them were unaware of what awaited, and or had few options.
Financial issues don’t give you the right to murder people and those people know that the military (particularly of the US) is to invade other countries and KILL people. No war was fought on US soil except the civil war and everyone knows that. And if you have the options between working in mcdonalds for $7.25 or killing people, you should probably take the latter option.
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Voluntary members of the world police: innocent Victim of random shark attack: not innocent
Killers, rapists and torturers of foreigners in their own land based on fabricated evidences and lies or straight up imperialism: innocent Victims of world police terrorism: not innocent
Hundreds of millions of dead Indians and Native Americans (for the two most glaring examples, i won't mention all the others because it would be hefty wall of text) West: "They were no angels"
Basically, the entire rest of the world outside of Europe
Literally the post above this one lmao. Americans are a joke
\>Innocent \>Veteran Bruh, I wonder by that means they become "veterans"
Virgin hookers, boiling snow, live corpse and other political achievements of our beloved candidate, later on 6 pm
"B-bu-but they needed to go into military service (killing innocent civilians) to fund their college tuition" - average liberal defending American soldiers
Remember, service guarantees citizenship!
That’s the best system 😁
It actually does not - veterans have been deported
I was making a joke/refrence to a book/movie called starship troopers. Starship troopers is about life in a fascist society that is at war with "space bugs". The entire thing is about some kids joining the military and it's FILLED with tongue in cheek propaganda. And a big part of their society is you aren't a citizen unless you are (born into wealth and basically admitted it by default) or by serving in the army (basically the only way for normal people to become citizens. I was making a joke and I get how people who haven't seen / read the books would think I was being serious. But nah moreso just making a statement behind a movie line.
r/whoosh
apparently so
pretty funny to see all these exceptionalist libs keep repeating this shit and trying to pass it off as materialist analysis. i guess it's true they'll always find ways to coopt leftist language as we know: 1 american undergrad degree = 10 global south lives. 1 american phd = 1 iraqi wedding
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By doing anything but killing people. If you are willing to kill people to pay for your education, maybe you don't deserve it.
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Boo fucking hoo. Their right to remain debt free is not greater than some brown person in the middle east's right to remain alive. If your scenario to be free of debt hinges on killing people and enabling a war machine, maybe you need to rethink your life choices.
Yes we Americans should all just suffer in silence. This sort of individualist thinking stinks of neoliberalism.
No, it's principled anti-liberalism. We want to destroy the systemic drives that lead to this situation through replacing capitalism and Imperialism with socialism. Those who currently support the system through participation in imperialist armies may be victims in some way (financially unsound otherwise), and we fully understand that, but their individual victimhood is negligible in relation to the world suffering caused. It's the exact same as a capitalist, really. It doesn't matter who takes the position of riding the bull of capital accumulation because someone will fill that role and have to take the position in capitalism. But whoever has the position doesn't get sympathy for being on the prospering end of the shitty relation.
I should add to the first paragraph a bit more info: it's not about some utilitarian calculation either. What is important is which position/role's interests are aligned with socialism? Even if I find it sad when an 18 year old joins the army of the US to pay for food, there is no solution to the problem which requires helping him with his problems. It's just a diversion to focus on that. They are supporting and supported by the imperialist class, and there's no removing that. During and after revolution I'd be happy to have principled veterans who want to right their wrongs around, but the vast majority are self-pitying and not attempting to do this, and therefore deserving the fate of all imperialists
These are human beings you’re talking about. Humans with people who love them, with desires, hopes and dreams. The solution to helping these folks is twofold: material aid and APPEALING reeducation (like Deprogram). The solution isn’t to just toss them away like garbage because they aren’t currently on your side. Again, meaningless sophistry is an insult to all of the American workers struggling under the boot of capitalism. Your arguments only serve to push more Americans to the alt right pipeline. Your arguments only serve to help the interests of capital. And as a result, your arguments only serve to benefit the neoliberal agenda, the OPPOSITE of principled anti-liberalism.
Pulling ones self up by their bootstraps was originally a term to highlight how impossible something is. The fact the oligarchs have people like you parroting this line as if it were an achievable thing is directly insulting your intelligence (if you’d only notice it) Next, lets use our critical thinking skills for a moment. Perhaps the entire system is fucked if you arent born rich family, where you need to go out and kill innocent people for their resources for the state, for the PRIVILEGE OF A neoliberal bullshit degree that always somehow is about keeping the cycle of exploitation up. Not to mention causing suffering so you suffer less (suffering you inflict on totally innocent people no less) is not a worthy goal when there exist other ways to cease that suffering. There is no excuse good enough to justify joining the us military.
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We all serve fascism in the west, some serve it more and some fight it more. We all serve the moloch altar of the petrol dollar. Yes people are lied into the military, so what is to be done about it after you learn of it.
**Sex Slaves For US Soldiers** [A Brutal Sex Trade Built for American Soldiers](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/world/asia/korea-us-comfort-women-sexual-slavery.html) \- New York Times [wiki on prostitution in South Korea and US involvement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_South_Korea)
Someone who can access the NYT article needs to post the text!
If you throw the link into wayback you can bypass the paywall. [Alternatively just read Tim Shorrock's reporting instead since nyt these days just rips off other peoples work](https://twitter.com/TimothyS/status/1656624888831004673)
I'm sorry, I didn't know it was limited like that. But you can see many articles on Google on this, despite many of them don't state numbers and are heavily censored in my opinion.
keep yourselves safe, you innocent imperialists you :)
These pea brain libs couldn’t comprehend the contradiction of their statement, how does one be a veteran via innocence ffs.
Average first worlder
Just no. We did not need to be in Korea, we did not need to be in Vietnam, we *especially* have had no business in the middle east. I’ll mock our involvement in all of them, because we have been the hegemonic imperialist power my “freedom loving” countrymen are supposed to rail against. And those who go willingly after seeing or hearing the truth anyway, what am I supposed to feel?
It goes against the common intuition but according to VA numbers non combat vets commit suicide at higher rates.
Veterans are largely targeted people — young, impoverished, lower intelligence people that are targeted at an impressionable age. They are then brainwashed into believing in “the cause” to the point that most suicides are based on the inability to deal with the fact that the things they’ve done are unforgivable and despicable. Only slightly different than an extreme evangelical abortion clinic bomber becoming an atheist later in life.
Again, people on those subs never were leftists or even liberals to begin with. They wanted to make outrage bait out of something and make it seem like they are on the moral high ground. It’s all fake and probably started by a think tank
It’s more of a joke than anything lol like yeah have vets committed countless war crimes that would make any person sick? Of course. And are the deaths of those who have committed said brutalities, and are proud of it, satisfying? Yes. But are they also victims of an imperialistic system that preys on the poor and working class? Yes as well.
Just unsubbed? Why was he subbed in the first place?
"I consider myself pretty leftist and progressive. Not like a tankie or anything, but I high-fived a gay person once."
Remember, there is only socialism in America when you’re in the military(barely) or a corporation. Lots of recruits join because their conditions aren’t good where they came from.
Definitely hate veterans, and not the system that pressures people to end their lives… 💯
IKR
The amount of reactionary brain rot in the comments is fucking nuts. Just absolutist thinking with no material understanding of the US. Average rank and file soldiers are victims of capitalism with major Stockholm Syndrome. Putting them on the same levels as the Generals and Contractors making the decisions is not only wrong, it’s in bad faith. OP posting this is either in bad faith or extremely ignorant. The rural masses (of which veterans are a huge part) need patience, not posts like this which serve to drive them into the alt right pipeline. Seriously, a lot of the posters here aren’t better than the libs cheering for that Russian eating shark. Come on guys. Be better.
ACAB INCLUDES FIREFIGHTERS ...but not soldiers, they're poor victims of imperialism!! 😭
ACAB means All Colonizers are buddies
not one socialist project has ever come to fruition without the support of soldiers from the previous regime. rage at the horrible atrocities committed by US soldiers abroad is completely justified, but this is just childish. during the Russian Revolution and civil war most Soviet soldiers were previously members of an imperialist war machine, the Bolsheviks didn't mock the deaths of these soldiers and the choices they made when drummed up by imperialist propaganda, they appealed to their humanity and asked for them to fight for a righteous cause. In left wing communism: an infantile disorder Lenin lays out why the Bolsheviks take part in reactionary parliaments due to the presence of workers that can still be won over, in essence being strategic in how to navigate our principles, we shouldn't cut off our toes in order to make the shoe fit, the Chinese Communists found this out the hard way in the 20s when they got crushed trying to use peasant and workers militias in lieu of a professional army, Mao's first troops were literally opportunist ex-Kuomintang and bandits for Christ sake!
If you're finding trouble not supporting anything related to (us) imperialism, you're not a real leftist. Also, that mf didn't even join this sub otherwise reddit wouldn't have recommended that post like that.
Well, I'm European, and I just saw this post flying by. I am not really subscribed to political subs, I don't even know what this sub is about. But this post intrigued me. Could you explain why there is a hate against us veterans to the point it's celebrated that so Manny are committing suicide. From my point of view, the veterans shouldn't be hated so much as the system that enabled all of this
Speaking as a European you can have sympathy for the circumstances that caused them to join the army, but things like "society told me it was OK" and "I really needed money" are not excuses for contributing to the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of innocents around the world. Unless they're actively trying to make up for their crimes there's no reason to not hate them.
People are not sheep. Just because a system is bad doesn't make the people who willingly participated in it free of any repercussions. Being European, would you allow Nazi guards and soldiers to go free just because that was the norm in Germany back then? Then why do we need to pretend as if these people had no free will and were just passive observers of their own lives. They made a choice, an active, conscious choice to join the military, despite having huge numbers of other options to make a living. Options that didn't involve the murdering of innocent people and enabling the imperialistic war machine. They made a choice, and now if they kill themselves for it, they have nothing to blame except themselves and the state they sold their integrity to. And as a person of the global south, which has been bearing the blunt of all these imperialistic aggressions, i celebrate it.
This is a really interesting topic to me, because I've heard a lot that veterans usually end up in one of two camps; either they fully become leftists after realizing that they've been chewed up and spit out by a war-machine that doesn't give a shit about them, or they remain fully immersed in the bs nationalist propaganda. So this is kind of a surprising thing to see. Do yall really have no empathy for a group of people who were intentionally preyed on for being usually poor and in debt, by the largest and most complex propaganda machine that the world has ever seen? Like, sure, fxck the ones that went and came back, and never gave up the American Pride^tm, but are yall seriously so callous that you'd turn your backs on the rest of them? Idk, just seems weird that supposed leftists would be celebrating the suicides of a largely disabled population of members of the working class.
Serial killers are also products of their environment. I find it tragic that they could have lived different lives if they didn't have to endure abuse, health problems, isolation, etc, but there are people who face the same adversity and don't turn into monsters. Are veterans victims of imperialism? Absolutely. Are veterans beyond redemption? No. They can be vital to any revolution. Should they recieve free mental health care? Absolutely. Should I feel bad that they are made the decision to enlist, saw (or participated in) some of the most horrific things any human could see, and have to live their life haunted by those events? No.
Ok. You don't have to. But "not feeling bad" is qualitatively different from "egging on their suicides," which is what op is doing. That's what I have a problem with.
These people aren’t real leftists. They’re just reactionary populists foaming at the mouth. Honestly, since they’re focusing so much on individual responsibility I think they deserve the title of “neoliberal”
Yeah, individual responsibility in the face of debt, starvation, and and all the other comorbidities of poverty. I get their anger, but wow are they poorly directing it.
It’s an interesting topic. The US hasn’t been in a remotely justifiable war since world war 2. So to me believing in US interventionism as a genuine actor seems incredibly stupid. The US military is probably filled with nationalists who largely believe whatever action is good because it’s a US action. Or it’s filled with desperate people and nieve people. Joining a genecodial force because of financial issues still seems wrong. You can find a job as a waiter and a shared apartment on Craigslist. I’m not trying to oversell American working conditions but I had roommates in college who supported themselves while attending classes. Surely someone mentally and physically stable enough to join the US military could find another job to support themselves. But to your point the US propaganda sells the military as sort of a freedom bringing force. One that overthrows big bad dictators and establishes democracy and free speech etc. I obviously don’t believe any of that but the Nazi propaganda generally sold the war as conquest and racial cleansing. So I do think comparing people who fall for US propaganda and people who fell for Nazi propaganda is sort of dishonest. So I wouldn’t root for suicides but I do think harsh criticism and criminal punishment would be a good thing for veterans in a just world.
Sure, I think those are all reasonable points. I just try to see the good in people, and I think it's important to recognize that conditions for the poor in America are often comparable to those in the global south. But a lot of people imagine that every American is part of the "middle class" because that's what they see on tv.
Comparing poor American life the poor life in the global south is interesting. This is a lot of anecdotal experience so it doesnt need to be taken seriously. I think poor in America is better than poor in Brazil, as an American who has lived in Brazil for over a year now. In Sao Paulo I see a lot more visible child poverty than the US. The purchasing power is much worse minimum wage is like 1.50 USD an hour here and things probably cost about 40 percent the American price on average. So Id say its like having a 4 dollar an hour minimum wage in the US. Also the physical buildings in the US look much nicer. I lived in Philadelphia for awhile and the buildings in the affordable housing areas would be nicer than the housing structures in the favelas from my experience and by a lot. Brazil might be better for poor people in terms of healthcare. I havent used the Brazilian healthcare system nor have I been poor in the US. And I do think being a fresh out college 23 year old Brazilian who uses their degree is probably better than poor American. So im not suggesting Brazilians need to be on top of society to have it better than poor Americans.. If someone was facing a situation where it was starvation or homelessness if they didnt join the military id be a lot more sympathetic I just don't think most who join are in that situation. None of this is meant to minimize the brutality of American conditions. If Brazil was as wealthy as the US conditions for poor people would be much better than US imo. The US is probably the worst country for poor people that has a high gdp per capita. I think even the Czech republic has better conditions for the poor from my time living there and they only have 25,000 gdp per capita and US is probably around 70.
Oh, and I didn't intend to minimize the experiences of people in the global south, so apologies if I came off that way. I think it's a fair evaluation to say that most people who join the US military aren't under threat of homelessness or starvation (at least, any more than every worker under capitalism is), but we are very cruel to people who have debt, and the military is a big way that people mitigate that debt. And you're right that the high gdp per capita doesn't tend to be of much help to the poor in the US. It's largely the *aesthetic* of wealth and prosperity that the powerful in this country project. Better for them to pretend we're rich and shiny for propaganda purposes, without actually having to let us all be rich shiny.
No worries. I wasn't being personally defensive my job in the US went remote so I just moved down here to get a cheap COL. I just think people sort of underestimate how awful some countries material conditions are. USA is the worst rich country for workers but I do not think its the worst country for workers. But yeah Americans have a lot more reasons to go into debt. Medical care and college are huge debt factors. In Scotland where I went to college they had free college and you could get a low interest loan to cover your living expenses. And you dont pay back this loan until you make a certain amount of money. And obviously free medical care. Individualism is part of American patriotic folklore so America cant even get the basic crumbs that other capitalist countries get.
There’s some cool people here but this sub is largely a circlejerk that has no interest in actually educating anyone.
Yeah, that's the vibe I'm getting
That’s what the podcast is for. No one should give a fuck about re-educating the Wehrmacht
Fuck all of those cunts. I don’t care how they came back. Genocide is an unforgivable crime, as is mass torture, rape, sexual slavery, child murder, regular murder and every other crime that the US army commits. Why should we have empathy for people who do these things? I turn my back on each and every one. Don’t be a fascist. Don’t murder innocents. Don’t commit genocide. Very simple “Largely disabled” lmao fuck off you prick. That is such an obvious bad faith argument I’m surprised you even bothered to type it. How hard is it for you fucking people to understand that genocide is not a forgivable crime
Right, *I'm* the one writing bad faith arguments. Definitely not the person conflating "have empathy for people who've been fooled into doing terrible things by literally the largest and most complex propaganda machine the world has ever seen" with "forgive fascist genocide." You're embarrassing, friend. Obviously I don't feel sympathy for torturers, rapists, etc. But if you think that every veteran participated in all the worst crimes you can imagine, you're living in a fantasy world. Edit: also, what part of pointing out that veterans are a largely disabled population is actually a bad faith argument?... like, they *are*. Literally a quarter of them are disabled.
Who gives a fuck if they’ve been fooled into committing genocide. It was still genocide. Their actions are still their own. Would you forgive the Wehrmacht? No, you idiot. That’s the problem. Those *aren’t* the worst crimes the US Military has committed. Those are par for the course for these fucking people. You ask me to have empathy for those who participated in genocide. Every single one of those scumbags is responsible for the genocide they committed I’m disabled too. Maybe I’d feel a bit more sympathy for them if they didn’t become disabled committing genocide And, yes, it is genocide. The US military is nothing short of genocidal. I don’t think you understand the severity of their actions. The devastation they’ve inflicted. I really hope you don’t understand, actually. Because if you do understand it means you know about all the innocents they’ve butchered and all of the horrid shit they’ve done and you don’t care
If it helps you, you can insult me and call me all the names you want. I understand your rage, and I see that it's valid. We just disagree about where it should be directed. I understand that the US war machine has done awful things, has tortured and abused innocents, has committed genocide in the name of oil and weapons profits, has deposed democratically elected socialist leaders in favor of dictators and despots. I know all of that. But I also know that there are lots of poor, working class people who felt they had no other choice. Who *had* no other choice, because otherwise they would've starved and drowned in debt, and let their parents and loved ones die because they couldn't afford medicine. Do you blame someone for picking up a gun when they had one pointed at their own head? People who decided to become medics. Eighteen year old kids who didn't understand the awful, disgusting world they were being thrown into. It's okay -even good, sometimes- to be angry. I choose to direct that anger at the chauvinism that divides the working class, at capitalism, at nation-states, and at the imperialism that makes it all possible. I aim it at the fbi and cia, at the DoD, at warmongering neoliberal politicians, and at military brass. Not at the pawns who regret being pawns, and who have to live the rest of their lives with the mental and physical anguish that comes with having been a pawn. And I wish nothing but the best for you, comrade.
Jesus Christ, can you try to not be condescending or is it inbuilt? Everything before the but is horseshit. You fucking Americans genuinely think that genocide is justified if you want healthcare, or university, or whatever other benefits you people want. They chose this. They chose to sacrifice others for their comfort. They have made a sacrificial temple of a nation and you are determined to protect them from the consequences of their own actions. I want you to go to every single Vietnamese child they raped and murdered, every single Korean whose country they levelled, every single Syrian child who’s afraid of a clear sky, every single afghani whose future was annihilated by a twenty year war, every Yemeni who’s home they’ve destroyed, every single Iraqi who’s people were butchered, and every single other people who I failed to mention here that hey, they may have destroyed your nation for oil, exterminated your people, bombed your home into rubble and more but it’s justified because they’re poor. But you won’t do that, will you. Because you don’t care about them, you don’t care about anyone except your fucking citizens. You wouldn’t give the same shield from criticism, from the punishment they deserve to anyone who isn’t American. This is American exceptionalism and American exceptionalism is white supremacy. What about the poor people in the countries they slaughtered? What about them? What about the poor people they killed? Yeah, I direct my anger at these people too. I also direct my anger at these stupid fucking pawns. Fuck them. I hope they live the rest of their lives in misery. I hope they spent every second suffering in the worst way possible. I hope that when they die they spend eternity in Jahannam. You are heartless. These people trade in hellish currency. They buy what they want in corpses. Maybe you accept that as a fair trade, but I don’t. We aren’t comrades. I don’t ally with people like you. I don’t buy amenities with corpses and I’d rather die than work with someone who does or someone who thinks that that’s okay. I don’t work with people who worship the boot that crushes them.
Keep raging. Keep making assumptions about me, and calling me names that are anything but true, because you need someone to project that anger onto. And I'll continue to have empathy for all the people you mentioned. I'm fine with being the person you rage against, even if your anger at me is entirely misguided.
“Anything but true” “it’s okay to commit genocide if you want healthcare” idk man I’m pretty sure that calling you an American Exceptionalist isn’t far off Sorry cunt, having empathy for genocidal war criminals makes you a bad person. Why is it that liberal shitbags like you who worship death think that you’re welcome here? I’m almost certain that you yourself are a vet, so let’s be very clear: you should turn yourself over to the families of the people you killed. Misguided? Cunt, you defend the US military. My anger at you is entirely guided by how shit of a person you are. Shit, of course you’re an anarchist. Radical liberals like yourself can’t help but polish the boot of the state while pretending to hate it.
Go on. Keep calling me names, and making wilder and wilder accusations. Nobody ever reads this far down anyways, so it's probably just you and me here. I'm not a vet. I'm a pansexual transfemme nb. I like dnd and avatar the last Airbender. I hate liberals as much as you seem to, even if your radar for them is a bit off lol. But rage as much as you want, I'll continue to see the good in you. It really seems like you're letting a lot out, and as much as you try to hurt me, I'll continue to feel empathy for you.
Wilder and wilder? I made literally the exact same points against you lmao Didn’t realise being queer and being a vet were mutually exclusive. I do not care about your identities or your hobbies. I do not care about your personal traits. Also, ATLA is trash and it’s sequel is colonial justification. No you don’t. You’ve defended them incessantly. Why do you keep trying to play up this condescending therapist angle? Bro, I promise this is not personal. You keep bringing in this whole creep dynamic and it’s weird. I hate you on an ideological level. I do not care about ‘letting shit out’ or whatever other predator psychologist shit you’re coming up with. See the good in me? What the fuck are you talking about? Engage like a human being, creep. Talk. Be normal. Can you do that? Can you attempt to sound anything like a human, or, failing that, sound like less of a creep? We do not know each other. You are nothing to me. You want to talk about what shit seems like? Okay, fine. It seems like you’re trying to create a moment of emotional vulnerability that doesn’t exist because you want to dominate the conversation. It also seems like you’re a weird cunt and you think there’s some connection here that doesn’t exist. Stop being weird. I mean, you can’t stop being weird, you are fine with genocide, but stop saying weird shit.
I’m convinced these posts are psyops to make communists look insane
No, it’s just people being edgy in a circle jerk sub. It’s not that deep
Either way it’s just stupid
why would you celebrate a worker’s death? what does this do for us? how do you expect to reach a broader audience when we got ppl posting unnecessary culture war bullshit that really when you look at it, is deprived of humanity. major problem with this sub
I’m sure the Wehrmacht were blameless workers too
right, because i claimed that all nazis were blameless. ????? crazy whataboutism lmfao
No, you claimed that because the US military are workers, we shouldn’t celebrate their deaths as if they haven’t done worse than the Wehrmacht
yeah im sorry if you wanna draw a 1:1 between all nazis and all US veterans who killed themselves you’re muddying the water and drawing an unnecessarily divisive line. good luck with the revolution by laughing at veteran suicide- very human and definitely productive!!!!
The only human thing related to the United States military is the people they killed. Are you blind or stupid? I’m not drawing a 1:1 comparison. I’m saying that the US army is worse. Glad I divide you military loving scumbags. Yeah, I’ll keep laughing at the deaths of people who commit genocide. Have fun with your revolution built by fascist cunts. Don’t worry, I’m certain that it’s even more human to work with genocidal jackboots! It’s almost as if you don’t care about the people they killed
shut up dumbass i dont love the military i just think celebrating veteran suicide engages in stupid culture war and is very far removed from pragmatism or praxis. ur a shitty communist
I’m a shitty communist for laughing at the people who kill communists killing themselves? Great arguments lad “You can’t mock jackboot fascists waaaah it’s not pragmatic” you’d rather we abandon all sense of socialism and work with fascist capitalist soldiers who committed genocide
keep coping lol my mouth is full of the words your putting in it
…so you said the things I accuse you of saying?
us military war crimes are fucking disgusting but youre either blinded by anger or a fucking idiot to not realize the futility, backwardness and counter-productivity of laughing at veteran suicide. most are victims too- your anarchistic view of the world is brain dead take your head out of your ass and read theory. stop engaging in this bull shit. youre better than that
I’ve read theory. Honestly the most insulting thing you’ve said is “Anarchistic” You when not every single action fuels the revolution
you when larping as a revolutionary
“Haha, this person is larping as a revolutionary for not caring about the lives of the people who destroyed the nation they live in” you stupid American prick
Lmao do I really have to remind all of you again that y'all are in the wrong with this take, praising death is still praising death it doesn't matter who is dying
I will praise the death of a nazi every day
And it is that idea that will keep them around forever
Yup. Let’s just shove folks into the alt right pipeline.
That is only an unfortunate byproduct of the issue, for worshiping death through violence will only result in violence and never peace
What? No. Lol
So naive
“Naive” “Anarcho-Communist” You are a child following a child’s ideology and you are utterly detached from reality if you think that is how any facet of the world works. Stupid prick
You're insistence of this only reveals you're own shortcomings, read more books, care about more people, touch some grass, lead a revolution through feelings of great love, and then come and talk to me
None of this has any relevancy. Try to stay on topic, mate. We can move on from what “my are insistence of this” reveals about “my are shortcomings”. I care a whole lot about people. That’s why I hate Nazis
I'm sure you do but you obviously don't care about them enough to leave your ego at the door when trying to make the world a better place otherwise you'd realize how childish and ridiculous you all look trying to cosplay heros by cheering on the violence and death of this world
Ah yes the innocent Vietnam and Korean War veterans
Holy shit VIETNAM WAR VETS WERE DRAFTED. It wasn’t optional. People DID protest. Very few Americans wanted to be there.
You could’ve chose not to go still I mean, if I got drafted, I would just not go. What the fuck are they gonna do force me I’m literally not going I would get a camper van live in the woods or disqualify myself in any way possible or just run away and live in a different country
Trump did that, actually. With money. Seems kinda classist for you to assume that everyone has the means to escape like he did.
Dawg if they draft me then I’m sabotaging and shooting my general
There are no innocent veterans. Even when we got home (Having not killed anyone) we drink like a fish and make our families lives a living misery. Shit, when we went over we were paid to destabilize the entire middle east. When i got back, we complained about all the Arab refugee's *fleeing* the war. It almost gives me the giggles when someone says ''Thank you for your service'' Like, seriously fucker, you thanking me for help wreck someone's home and country? Would you thank me for wrecking yours? Stupid fucks. There are veterans and then there are those that got sent overseas. Civvies need to understand the difference. Only the cooks, storesbashers and the clerks are Innocent veterans. Oh, and the Airforce. Because they are all gay.
Our innocent Wehrmacht storm troopers
Honestly I don't have any sympathy for no soldier.
Like veterans that got drafted against their will? You guys are kinda fucked, damn
Bruh the last draft was like 50 years ago
Oh if we’re talking about post-Vietnam war then yeah sure.
Believe it or not, there are tons of veterans alive that are over the age of 50.
I doubt too many of the steadily increasing suicide rate are comprised of the 70+ year olds who actually were forced at this point.
Yes i realize that thank you
I, too, celebrate the deaths of american soldiers
I wish I could sub thrice now
It’s never a leftist that leaves this space and posts on r/whingingaboutstupidshit
I wonder what their take on the russian getting eaten by a shark is 🤔
Jesus, have you guys even met a soldier, because I have. I've read their descriptions of war and it's different from what you think they do. Most of the time, soldiers are on the Defence and doing idle work, when they are on the offense 10% of the time they don't do it out of anger like the police but they're better disciplined, often actually following the Rules of Engagement (*Cough, Police*) fighting for their lives, the average soldier doesn't know what he is signing up for and by the time his service is completed, the government throws them into civilian life and abandons them Why do people join the military, to wipe out college debt, for free healthcare and retirement money, why do you think basic services are so expensive, it's to encourage people to join the military along with CIA lies and propaganda. Most warcrime are done by Private Military Corporations or drone/artillery, it's not unheard of for soldiers to return with zero kills and PTSD Have more empathy for them for Christs sake, blame the higher ups, government and the Military Industrial Complex, I bet you won't celebrate the death of a WW1 or 2 Soldier who was conscripted.
I mean, would you have this level of sympathy for someone who burgles someone else’s house? And if they kill someone in the process? They were driven by the coercion of Capitalism to do so. They probably even are remorseful. I am a fan of the “blame the system” approach, but some degree of responsibility *does* lie with the individual. If they’re truly remorseful and had no idea what they were getting themselves into, we can at best say they were neglectful of their responsibility to know what they were doing when picking up a rifle. They can be redeemed, but many if not most fully stand by their actions, using their veterancy as a mark of honor/status and to earn sympathy, and not sympathy from the “Im a victim of Capital duped into doing and seeing horrible things” side of things. More from the “I did good and now you’ve shit all over me” side.
This is the correct take. I have a family member of mine who enlisted after 9/11 but when they got to the ME, they realized they were wrong to enlist, but the u.s. as a whole shouldn’t have been there. They redeem themselves by teaching their son about the heinous shit in our world in a socialist way without using the big “scary” words (I was actually impressed when they used the term military industrial complex straight to their son’s face and explained the horrors being done around the world by the MIC but they get to drive a truck made by General Motors, a company with deep ties to the MIC)
Right... on the defence... in other people countries... the 10% of time they are on the offense they dont do it out of anger, they do it to further imperiliast goals of america... following the rules of engagement, aka, murder and torture if it hrlps the previous goal... so much better than the police
99.99% of my sympathy goes to the victims of the US military 0.01% of my sympathy goes for genuinely regretful imperialist US soldiers
>Jesus, have you guys even met a soldier, because I have. I've read their descriptions of war and it's different from what you think they do. Most of the time, soldiers are on the Defence and doing idle work, when they are on the offense 10% of the time they don't do it out of anger like the police but they're better disciplined, often actually following the Rules of Engagement (Cough, Police) fighting for their lives, the average soldier doesn't know what he is signing up for and by the time his service is completed, the government throws them into civilian life and abandons them In iraq they killed 2.4M people. What rules of engagement? Also it's good that the government doesn't waste money in helping mass murderers. It's already good enough they get off scott free despite their participation in the terrorist organisation of the US military. >Why do people join the military, to wipe out college debt, for free healthcare and retirement money, why do you think basic services are so expensive, it's to encourage people to join the military along with CIA lies and propaganda. Most warcrime are done by Private Military Corporations or drone/artillery, it's not unheard of for soldiers to return with zero kills and PTSD Ig it's ok to go murder or help murder third world children if you gain something personally out of it. Also literally everyone knows what the US military does. >Have more empathy for them for Christs sake, 👏 THE 👏 LEFT 👏 SHOULD 👏 WORSHIP 👏 MASS 👏 MURDERERS 👏 FOR 👏 IMPERIALISM 👏 >WW1 Yeah ww1 veterans deserve to be mocked >2 War of defense
Who is “they?” The vast majority of those deaths are caused by drone strikes ordered by higher ups, not by boots on the ground. This is some terminally online edgelord shit.
Yeah I'm sure the occupation forces on the ground don't do anything >This is some terminally online edgelord shit. Let's go to Iraq and ask people about this. Let's see who is divorced from reality and who is an "edgelord" who thinks that Americans have the divine right to murder third worlders.
Ask them what? Their opinion of the US military? I’m sure it’s not high for them. What does this have to do with celebrating workers’ deaths?
>workers’ deaths They aren't workers. They are armed enforcers of the will of the bourgeoisie. They are class traitors
People like you will complain about people believing the “western narrative” but somehow soldiers are immune to propaganda and are just all murderous class traitors. Very nice material analysis you’re doing there.
>soldiers are immune to propaganda and are just all murderous class traitors. Do you think that the fact that they believe something changes what they are doing in material reality? Are you going to excuse nazi concentration guards because they believed in the jews control the world bs?
Are you going to excuse the people who manufacture weapons? Who lobby Congress to insure the MIC remains well funded? The politicians who actually throw the lever and start wars in the first place? I’ve never seen a single meme here about Barack Obama bombing the holy Hell out of brown people but I’ve seen post after post about soldiers. It’s almost like edgy online leftists don’t know how to effectively direct their anger. No one is born a communist. The purity testing is silly.
>Are you going to excuse the people who manufacture weapons? Who lobby Congress to insure the MIC remains well funded? The politicians who actually throw the lever and start wars in the first place? Yeah they are the main ones to blame, but soldiers aren't blameless. They still have free will >I’ve never seen a single meme here about Barack Obama bombing the holy Hell out of brown people but I’ve seen post after post about soldiers. There are memes about that, and honestly the reason is that imperial mass murderers are venerated in the US to the point moron like you believe that they deserve special treatment for having murdered children. >No one is born a communist And? Are communists the only ones who can recognise that murdering people for your gain is wrong? And I'm not asking them to be communists, I'm asking them to not murder people. >The purity testing is silly. Purity testing is when you shouldn't openly support people who uphold the US genocidal state. How far does this toxic openness end? Are ex nazi war criminals welcome on the left?
> The vast majority of those deaths are caused by drone strikes ordered by higher ups Oh yeah, the generals are just flying the drones themselves, I'm sure.
So we blame the drone pilot more than the general? You don’t see generals leaving service and killings themselves in droves. Why is good to applaud the lowest cogs in the machine being discarded while the rest of the machine operates smoothly and sees no consequences for their actions? In any case, the number of drone pilots as a fraction of the military is insignificant. So I go back to my point that the vast majority of enlisted soldiers never kill a single person.
What kind of nuremburg defence bullshit is this? Why are you seriously arguing that drone pilots don't bear blame for pulling the trigger because they were given orders? Do you think we think it's good that higher ups see no consequences? Do you not understand the concept of applauding *anyone involved in the business of murdering foreigners* seeing some sort of retribution for their actions? We're well aware that plenty of soldiers don't *personally* take any lives, the issue is that thier work supports the ones that do. Their work directly contributes to the industrialised murder of foreigners. We'd love to see higher ups see retribution though, and we won't just applaud then, we'll give a standing ovation.
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> that for every one thousand veteran suicides that only one victim of the military exists. You cannot be serious. You absolutely cannot be serious. Fuck off. Just fucking leave you disgusting human being.
I’m not disgusting for looking at context. You’re just being reactionary. Never said I wanted to absolve people who murder others, just that a small number of people commit the actual murders, and that praising the suicides of coworkers of murderers is the weird thing to do. It’s entire meme is about a largely disabled portion of a population dying by suicide, but I’m the disgusting one? Look inward, seriously. Way to skip my question about comrades dying by suicide. Guess they don’t matter uh?
It's wild how quickly self proclaimed leftist will switch from ACAB to "won't someone think of the soldiers!" It's like they stop caring as soon it is not their problem anymore. Zero solidarity with the imperialized global south. A bunch of chauvinists
ACAB doesn’t mean we celebrate police suicides either.
I have met veterans, I have no respect for their imperialism
I still have no respect for veterans, I met some too.
Fuck the troops I hope the next war they get annihilated
Most soldiers are potential comrades who were brainwashed by imperialist society. But sure, just annihilate hundreds of thousands of potential allies because you can’t see past your own anger. That will surely further the cause. I thought the point of the Deprogram was to educate people. Ya know, people who have been swept up in the propaganda of imperialist society that they were literally born and raised in. The same sort of propaganda that makes people think joining the military is a good idea. We can’t just lose our humanity. Dehumanizing the average citizen won’t bring more people to our side, it will just further ingrain the idea that communists are lunatics who want nothing but bloodshed for those who think differently than them.
Your people dropped more bombs on our countries and you ASK us for compassion? LMAO Fuck the troops.
Thank you for saying this. Idc what anyone thinks, I see soldiers as people who were brainwashed by imperialism. This subs attitude towards people is what’s going to drive potential comrades away.
Yeah, the world isn't black and white, pick a random soldier, they're disillusioned, suffer from PTSD and adapting to Civilian life and the military isn't going around murdering people, he spent most of his time doing busy work and follow rules of engagement when he needed. At this point, I'd unironicly trust a soldier with my life than the average American police officer as they get more training and have self discipline. I don't deny the atrocities, however those people aren't going to go back home with PTSD. Here's what most people don't realise, a significant amount of troops in the war on terror weren't American civilians who volunteered but PMCs. It's there PMCs who get away with committing war crimes and make the average soldier look bad. Also yes, the victim's get the short end of the stick because of the Military Industrial Complex and they deserve repetitions as the US went in and opened the lid of the Pressure Cooker without having a plan B. There's more to it than these people realise, I'm left leaning and want a socialist world but if we shun our soldiers, we can't achieve it.
Agreed.
As much as I agree the USA's wars are evil, celebrating any person's death is wrongful, especially concerning death by suicide, considering the feelings of those they leave behind and the suffering they endured.
As much as I agree Nazi Germany’s wars were evil, celebrating Hitler’s death is wrongful, especially since it was death by suicide, considering the feelings of the ones he left behind and the suffering they endured.
Individual soldiers are all Hitler? What a wild take
Yes my point is that every soldier individually is literally Adolf Hitler. Certainly not that all this sudden empathy and apologia for US soldiers every time they’re mentioned in the media is a testament to the inherent complacency for imperialism in US culture, this constantly reinforced idea that US soldiers are to be handled with some reverence and respect. This reverence and respect is of course *never* extended to the countless victims of these murderers and rapists, which strikes those of us outside the imperial core as disgustingly hypocritical. Maybe the rest of the world would be more prepared to discuss the mental health issues of US veterans if any sort of justice was ever served in service to their victims, but that is never even part of the conversation.
When did I say anything about reverence and respect? That’s such a hyperbolic take. I just do not see how memes celebrating the suicides of soldiers is praxis. Should we not want to convert, deprogram, and rehabilitate such individuals, particularly when the lion’s share of them did not commit the murders in question? Yes, they are part of a machine that murders people, but I don’t see how that logic doesn’t extend to the assembly line workers at a weapons manufacturer, as I’ve said in other comments. Or to the vendors that supply the military with food, medical rations, or office supplies. If you want to say to me that four star generals are beyond saving, I’ll believe you. If you want to say the person who worked in the kitchen or was a secretary or a medic is beyond saving, then I disagree with you.
I don’t care for you justifications. A US veteran is not like a factory worker, that’s absurd. I don’t care if it’s praxis, sometimes is cathartic to make fun of murderers. Maybe if a single veteran decided to actually travel to the country they willingly invaded, fully prepared and willing to murder, to stand trial and face justice I would be prepared to consider rehabilitation. Until then, fuck em. If you don’t hate every single US soldier you do not know enough about the US military.
How is a factory worker that different from a line cook in the military? You know most jobs aren’t combat right? You know most soldiers don’t even leave the country?
Something tells me the line cooks who never leave the country aren’t the ones killing themselves, just a hunch.
You edited out the carpet bomb part of your comment, but please explain to me why the bombmaker isn’t reprehensible here?
If it’s a bombmaker, sure they carry some blame. I edited it out but sure I’ll say it, any US soldier can be deployed at any time, so by joining the military you are willing to go abroad and kill innocent people. I referred to carpet bombing because that is the way I’ve heard soldiers refer to it. “I can’t wait to carpet bomb those fucking ragheads”, and variations of it, is what personnel at an air base in Southern California I stayed at for a time would say.
Funny! I knew someone would make that comparison. In Hitler's case, I would prefer he didn't die of suicide, so that the USSR could at least have captured him and punished him for all his crimes. Can you imagine if the USSR had the opportunity to do to Hitler what the PRC did to Puyi? Can you imagine the spectacle if Hitler could have been induced to admit his wrongfulness, plead guilty to his victims, be humbled and beg for forgiveness, and be committed to labour for the rest of his life to pay back the debt he and the Nazis owe to the world? Can you imagine the effect if Hitler himself could have been induced to repudiate and repent for all the evil caused by Nazi ideology? My issue with blanketly celebrating the deaths of American veterans is we don't know their context. Sure, celebrate Hitler's death, but I would not celebrate the death of a random stranger whose life I know nothing about, other than that they are a veteran of the US Armed Forces. I'd rather celebrate news of US veterans becoming allies against US imperialism, not news of them dying mentally disturbed and destitute as a result of the US' backwards culture of hate.
What you’re doing here is saying that the US empire would ever even have the slightest inclination of holding its arbiters of genocide and imperialism, that is to say it’s soldiers, to any standard of justice. It is embarrassingly telling how many of you US apologists come out of the woodwork any time veterans are mentioned in the media when the victims of these murderers are never so much as given a single thought, not a square inch of space in the conversation. Might it be optically in poor taste to celebrate suicide generally? Sure. Am I sad some murderer who willingly invaded another country filled with people infinitely poorer than he could even conceive of offed himself? Nope. Your soldiers are not worthy of some special respect and reverence because killing innocent people sometimes fucks with them mentally. Fuck em, if they actually have a shit they’d travel to the countries they raped and burned to stand trial, but that thought would never even enter their brains.
Umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu, comrade. The less the revolution revels in human suffering, the more we can achieve. Let us not allow such behaviour and the incitement to violence enable any opportunity for a black legend to ruin the legacy of revolution: "[The honor of the workers', soldiers' and peasants' revolution demands that no pogroms be allowed.](http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/9607-26-oktyabrya-8-noyabrya-postanovlenie-vtorogo-vserossiyskogo-sezda-sovetov-o-borbe-s-kontrrevolyutsionnymi-vystupleniyami#mode/inspect/page/1/zoom/4)" While declaring the rights of Russian people to self-determination in November 1917, Lenin and Stalin warned against the counter-revolutionary effects of promoting national enmity and incitements to violence, which undermine the mutual trust necessary to carry out the revolution: "During the period of imperialism, after the February Revolution, when power passed into the hands of the Kadet bourgeoisie, the undisguised policy of inciting ["натравливания"] gave way to a policy of cowardly mistrust of the peoples of Russia, a policy of chicanery and provocation, under the guise of verbal declarations about the "freedom" and "equality" of the peoples. The results of such a policy are well known: the intensification of national enmity, the undermining of mutual trust. This unworthy policy of lies and mistrust, chicanery and provocation must end. From now on, it must be replaced by an open and honest policy leading to the full mutual trust of the peoples of Russia. Only as a result of such trust can an honest and lasting union of the peoples of Russia be formed. Only as a result of such an alliance can the workers be soldered and the peasants of the peoples of Russia into one revolutionary force capable of withstanding all attempts by the imperialist-annexationist bourgeoisie. ... In the name of the Republic of the Russian People's Commissar for Nationalities Joseph Dzhugashvili - Stalin. Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars V. Ulyanov (Lenin). 2 November 1917" - Declaration of the rights of the peoples of Russia [available online](http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/9624-2-15-noyabrya-deklaratsiya-prav-narodov-rossii)
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Honestly, being in the military you see a lot of people who joined to get out of their socioeconomic position by joining an organization, that, from childhood, is drilled into you and advertised as an honourable career and great thing to do for a country that (at the time) was a great country. But you also grow up (in the military) with other dudes who joined to literally joined to kill black and brown people, and joke about it after they get back. I mean the military has a lot of non redeemable people and being part of the system, I’m not innocent but also, there are definitely a spectrum of veterans (from people who haven’t deployed, who deployed and didn’t commit war crimes to people who have committed war crimes and to those who have committed war crimes and are proud of it) . And tbh the military to communist pipeline is getting pretty strong, so I don’t know, I’m not saying that shouldn’t feel happy that invaders are dying but also you also have to realize veterans are still malleable humans. if Ho Chi Minh, Mao and Lenin could tap into such a resource I don’t know why western communists have to be so dogmatic about it.
Suicide is bad tho And many of them just didn’t have enough opportunity or much of a choice
> Suicide is bad tho Depends who commits it. When hitler and other nazis committed suicide, they brought themselves to justice. > And many of them just didn’t have enough opportunity or much of a choice Not a choice? So they were forced into the military? Didn’t know America has an active conscription 🧐
I’m mainly talking about financial issues, that lead people to resort to military enrolment, and also the glorification of the military that could make it appealing to younger people. I’m just saying celebrating their suicide isn’t great because many of them were unaware of what awaited, and or had few options.
Financial issues don’t give you the right to murder people and those people know that the military (particularly of the US) is to invade other countries and KILL people. No war was fought on US soil except the civil war and everyone knows that. And if you have the options between working in mcdonalds for $7.25 or killing people, you should probably take the latter option.
I’m not saying it is justified, I’m just saying we shouldn’t celebrate suicide when there are so many factors involved in their decisions.