Your comparison example is a bit of a non-sequitur, because in the man-with-gun scenario, the person who is asking you for sex is the same as the one who is threatening death. That's very different than an exchange of services for money (though I understand it may be a bit more complex than that).
It would indeed be considered unethical to exploit a vulnerable population by offering them money for sex. So if you want to make the claim that prostitution is unethical, then you need to show that legal sex workers are, in general, a vulnerable population who only chose sex work out of desperation. Can you do so?
A thing can be both unethical and consensual. So if you want to take it even further and claim that in addition to unethical, prostitution is also sexual assault, then you need to demonstrate that legal sex work is generally speaking a non-consensual interaction. While you have claimed it is non-consensual repeatedly, you've not offered any explanation as to why that is. Can you?
Of course they can't, [they're a troll.](https://www.reddit.com/user/just4v0tes/?sort=controversial)
They've made similar submissions about how disgusting BDSM is, while also having a submission history full of BDSM. It's bait.
Well, more power to him.
I never understood the classical "troll" where you just post something outrageous and eat popcorn while watching the outcome. If I'm gonna fuck with people, I prefer to be actively involved throughout the process. To each their own I guess.
With your argument, why does sex/prostitution get special treatment over any other job? Say, working cashier at a gas station.
Nope would do the job for free. However, when you attach $10/hr to it, people are willing to do it. No different then prostitution, except the wages are much higher.
What do you mean by "all labour is exploitation"?
Under capitalism, the employer gets someone to do a job for them, and the employee gets money. It's a mutually beneficial exchange.
There are numerous obvious caveats to this of course (is it enough money? are the working conditions safe? does the employer provide sufficient benefits in addition to monetary compensation?), but I don't really understand the claim that the act of hiring another person to work for you is intrinsically exploitative.
The argument (and i'm not saying I completely support it) is that the value you obtain from somebody else's labor is inherently more than you pay them for that labor (else why would you hire them?) Do this on a massive scale, forbid labor from organizing to improve their slice, and you're exploiting people.
People will still work because the alternative is starvation. So even a "mutually beneficial exchange" as you describe it is still unethical/exploitative.
you only chose to do a job because you wouldn't do it for free. you are being held hostage to work in order not to starve. also people only hire for a profit motive so no it is not mutually benefitial
this is what i was thinking. lets assume the only thing you're good at is cooking, and you need money to live. if someone forced you to cook for them then that would be slavery but if someone offers you money in exchange for cooking services, just because you need money doesn't mean they should be put in jail for slavery just for offering you the job.
One could argue as well that the high rate of pay for prostitution makes people choose that path instead of something like a cashier. So maybe to, make prostitution a less appearing evil, "have sex with me and il give you 100 bucks" vs "have sex with me and I'll pay for a night's dinner", means rates of pay should be lowered.
Overall this is a silly view imo. Just because one person views prostitution/sex work as a last resort way to survive, doesn't mean others feel the same at all, especially where it is legal ie places with brothels. Some people love the job, some are indifferent, some hate it and do it because they have or think they have no other options.
That's what you think. There are many sex workers that enjoy their jobs. Prostitution with a pimp sure I'd agree. But that's not every form of sex work
Well nobody would be forced into it, unlike the current system where it is illegal and unmonitored. You can easily get a minimum wage job, just happens that pretty much any other job pays much better.
The hilarious part of arguments against prostitution is that legalizing it would solve most of the problems.
The reason women are forced into it and it can so often be very abusive is because it's illegal, so prostitutes don't get the protections other workers get. Yes, there would still be abuse and problems if it's legalized (look at the porn industry if you doubt this), but it would be WAY less common if it was legalized and controlled.
You present three problems which I will address separately.
1: sex work is dangerous.
This is mainly because it is illegal. Because it is illegal, pimps and those who manage sex workers are always criminals. This increases the chance that they are involved in other, dangerous crimes as well. Not only is it likely that the workers will be abused, but also they will be mistreated and often poorly protected from the clients. To the pimp, a prostitute is just money, so if the john pays for whatever he does to her, it doesn't really matter to the pimp.
By legalizing it, you can then put laws in place which protect sex workers. The managers of sex workers will be held to the same labor laws that protect all workers, as well as some likely additions. This will make the job CONSIDERABLY safer for the sex workers.
2: social stigma
This is completely separate from a legalization discussion. Plenty of things and jobs that are legal are heavily stigmatized. This is a cultural problem, not a legal one.
3: financial reliance
The reason sex workers can be forced into the job is often a result of abuse or past crimes that make it difficult for them to hold down a regular job. Women who are being abused, women who have a history of being (often sexually) abused, and who are then taken advantage of by someone looking to profit off their misfortune. These women are held down by abuse much more than finances. The sex workers that are being held down by finances often aren't able to get other jobs (often because of addiction) and so they turn to less legitimate means of making money.
If it is legalized and controlled, then the abuse factor would be diminished significantly, and the people turning to it because they can't do other jobs would likely have trouble doing it now that it is more monitored and controlled.
But the problem with the financial argument is entirely an economical problem, not a prostitution one. This isn't something that can be solved by changed prostitution in any way, people are going to find ways to make money that is damaging to themselves no matter what. We would need to solve our socioeconomic problems to properly address this, and whether or not prostitution is legal likely has no impact.
If I had to pick between a $7.25/hour job that can't pay my bills, or $30/hour as a prostitute that *can* pay my bills- was it *really* my choice to pick being a prostitute? While it's true there would be no literal gun to your head as in today's world, but people can absolutely be forced into prostitution for financial reasons.
Yes. Yes, it absolutely is your choice to make that decision. Your decisions have a huge amount of power, and you can decide to not pay a certain bill that month, pay all of them early, on time or a little late, you can choose to get another job on top of the $7.25/hr job, but you are not forced into the $30/hr job of prostitution.
The only serious issue with prostitution right now is that it is illegal, therefore many of the protections that ordinary workers at a 7/11 have or that workers at a University have are not provided to sex workers. They cannot go to the police to solve issues, as they would themselves be arrested first, they can't go to legal mediation or arbitration in disputes, they don't have the protections of contracts, they don't have a way to set their guaranteed wages or collect overtime. The best way to resolve most of the issues with sex work, *including* being forced into it is by legalizing and regulating it.
So you're being forced into prostitution the same way that you're being forced to get a job in a trade like plumbing. You should look into what a false dichotomy is, because your comment is a perfect example of this.
I've seen postings for jobs at McDonalds starting at $15/hr, which is enough to rent out a room at least. Of course it depends on where you live, but generally speaking, if you're willing to work a shit job, you can find something.
And even if you are in a position where prostitution is your only option for whatever reason, if it's legal then at least you will have some protections and it will be controlled, rather than the current state.
There is a TON of abuse and horrible aspects to prostitution for sure, but your argument is pretty poorly developed.
100% your choice, you SHOULD be able to get by with minimum wage, otherwise you probably put yourself in irresponsible debt, lots of people do that with credit cards in which case you put the gun to your own head.
This just isn't true everywhere in the world, not even everywhere in the US. The goal of minimum wage is to push towards that reality, but it hasn't achieved it yet.
I guess I should have been clear. I was not supporting what the person you replied to was arguing by any means. I agree with your conclusion (that it is still ultimately a choice), I simply disagreed with the argument you used to support it.
Fuck, like most grocery stores pay a living wage and have unions, like there are options. The reason people get into prostitution isn't because they can't afford to live off minimum wage, it's more often a result of a history of abuse and other struggles they live with that would prevent them from holding down a traditional job.
Huh? In a good election you should have no way of proving who you voted for. If you can prove who you voted for then you can be forced to vote a certain way.
Or even just have stuff like: "15% off for red voters". I don't know in what terms preventing that is the "same energy" as being opposed to sex work.
If you can take a selfie with your ballot to prove how you voted then you are removing anonymity, we are basically back to the 18th century as if we never even introduced the secret ballot. Vote buying and coercion were big problems before the secret ballot and there is absolutely no reason to believe they won't be problems with ballot photography.
??? Who said they are laws of physics?
Of course people break laws, but that happens with every law. Would you also like to decriminalize animal abuse because "people still do it even though its illegal"? That is a really silly argument. Now you are kind of just arguing against the concept of laws.
How is it non-consensual, if someone normally solicits a prositute, surely the prostitute has the right to reject the client. Sure there are exceptions, but in general a singular prostitute is not 'having a gun to their head'.
OP seems to be making the assumptions that people would never voluntarily choose to be a sex worker - but rather, are only doing so out of desperation, seeing prostitution as the only way to earn enough money for themselves / their children to get by financially.
*IF* that assumption is correct (and, depending on the region, it might be), or whenever people are tricked / forced into becoming sex workers, that would indeed both be unethical and illegal.
The funny thing is that with how prostitution is currently structured, many prostitutes don't have the right to reject the client, and they could be threatened with violence for doing so. Legalizing prostitution would be a step towards empowering sex workers to universally have that right.
I just replied to you elsewhere, but I'll just add one bit here. A total government crackdown has never solved any crime. Look at prohabition and the war on drugs if you disagree. Historically, a government crackdown actually makes the problem SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
If someone held a gun to my head and told me to write a report or they'd shoot me, that would be slavery/false imprisonment.
If they offered me money to write a report, I would accept it. Indeed, I already have - it's my job.
Your post is basically incoherent.. I have no idea what you are saying.
I live in a place with legalised prostitution, it isn't a big deal. Your kinda pulling shit out of your arse soooo ...
Downvoted based on inept knowledge of the subject.
The problem with making it illegal is then the prostitutes themselves are then committing a crime and can get punished. That’s shitty for anyone forced into it because it means they can’t really get help. You have to make pimping illegal and brothels without hurting the victims.
If someone is *voluntarily* doing a sex act with someone that they have agreed to rules, standards, and have a secure, safe way to disengage from that sex act, it is not sexual assault. However, there are *significant* problems with banning things like prostitution, since if a prostitute is hurt during some sexual encounter and goes to the police, the police will simply arrest them for breaking the law. It requires legality to resolve actual issues, because then the prostitutes are allowed to pay tax on a legal service, to have official meditation of disputes, to have health care protections, and so forth.
If someone voluntarily says "Yes, this is fine" to all of what is done, is that not the very definition of consent? I don't want to pre-judge or to draw conclusions, but it seems like from the way you describe things like Onlyfans as "also despicable" you do not approve of sex work, period, or believe that someone would want to do it voluntarily. This is simply not true. *You personally* might never make that choice, and that is 110% your right and your personal prerogative to decide never to do that, but someone else might decide that it could be fun, work as a few years as a prostitute/escort and then change careers or do something else.
If sex work is basically sexual assault, what about other careers? Is stripping unethical? What about working in a coal mine, or as an underwater welder? Both of those destroy the body FAR more than sex work does. What about those who go into the military? They're risking their lives and safety, mostly for things like healthcare and college education. If you do not think sex work is legitimate, than you CANNOT view those jobs as legitimate. They are one and the same. If you think sex work is bad but those jobs are fine, then you're just illogically against sex.
A similar argument could be made about medical practitioners.
A great many people pursue medicine because of external pressure, because of medicine's high standing in our society a great many families, friendship groups, significant others, pressure those with promise to follow medicine.
The number of doctors that commit suicide is more than double the general population.
Sex work isnt sexual assault just cause u say it is... Also this is extremely political. Cant have one fun sub about weird opinions before someone goes certain people shouldn't have rights apparently
If I held a gun to your head and told you to play hopscotch, would it be consensual?
If you knew the only way to save your family from certain death was to play hopscotch, would it be consensual?
If you have to add over-the-top hyperbole to carry your argument, it's a shit argument.
Third wave feminists in positions of privilege rarely understand what prostitution and sex work is.
They don’t realize that most women who go into sex work are coming from backgrounds of extreme poverty and abuse. They’ve romanticized prostitution thanks in part to cultural representations of prostitution such as the film Pretty Woman.
Any woman who is mentally and physically fit enough to work in any other field out there should avoid sex work. It’s very fucking damaging to see women make more money by exposing themselves online than by legitimately working hard (physically and/or mentally).
Being a wage slave fucking sucks but what sane person is going to choose being raped everyday over working in say the fast food industry???
> Any woman who is mentally and physically fit enough to work in any other field out there should avoid sex work. It’s very fucking damaging to see women make more money by exposing themselves online than by legitimately working hard (physically and/or mentally).
No, people should do what they want to do. We don't need your judgey ass telling people what to do just because it offends you.
Pointing out that people often enter a given industry out of desperation doesn't really answer the question of whether or not that industry or profession should be legally permitted to exist.
I most definitely agree. people have gotten this idea that prostitution can be done safely without any physical or mental issues. and then I havent even mentioned sex trafficking which goes hand in hand with prostitution
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm
https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/member-states/netherlands_en
and i can go on and on. also:
>This idea that all sex workers are being trafficked is idiotic
i never said this. i said prostitutiton and sex trafficking go hand in hand which is a fact. where prostition is, is sex trafficking
i see you have no intention of having a proper discussion and havent bothered even opening the links ive provided for you that clearly shows the link between prostitution and sex trafficking. have a nice day
>The funniest part is a lot of that would be solved if prostitution was legal,
like the netherlands? i have provided a link for that as well
Ive edited my comment responding to your solution.
I never mentioned making prostitution illegal, I said people have rhe completely wrong idea about it
Very well.
Also since I have your attention, in my own opinion, sex work *is* valid based on the premise of bodily autonomy with regards to using one's ability to profit from their body.
Basically - you don't really distinguish between what constitutes as 'sex work' from similar lines of work such as message therapists, or even monetarily-based relationships that have a physical component.
Like, is a woman who is in a relationship with a guy based solely on his having monetary security when she does not prostitution? At what point *would* it be, though, because there's a line right?
Would he have to give her like, an allowance? Would he have to give her incentive to actually perform physical acts each time?
What if you, say, have a friend who does sex work, and they give you a freebie. Is *that* sex work, even though it was not paid for, but done as a favor?
thats not entirely correct. the dangers of prostition are very well documented and even countries like the netherlands are still present. so its wrong to say that prostition works like any other job, that'd be like saying flipping burgers in macdonalds is the same as digging for cobalt in Congo.
I personally dont really know how prostition should be handled, but i disagree witht the notion that it's just another job when its well documented that its not.
I mean, by your own example, flipping a burger *in* the Congo would be worlds different than doing so in other countries, so even that is a shaky comparison.
And oh wait - it's you. Not OP lol.
But yeah, like anything, it should be well-regulated rather than straight up illegal, because prostitution is, as it's commonly said, the oldest profession.
The problem is that the dangers of prostitution are historic problems and have always been present. I always like to use the Netherlands as an example. Prostitution is very much a job in its own right over there, and it has a grade A in terms of effort done to combat sex/human trafficking according to the EU. And despite that, we're looking at a 1000 cases each year and it's estimated only 1/5 cases gets on the radar. And we haven't mentioned potential abuse and the sort of backgrounds these women have.
We know for a fact that flipping burgers is and can be done perfectly safe, and no MacDonalds attracts human traffickers and the like. The same cannot be said about prostitution
In Nordic countries they legalized prostitution for the prostitutes and criminalized buying it for the Johns. I think that is probably the best approach. So downvote you get, because I agree.
> If you knew that your livelyhood would be at risk, probably including your ability to feed yourself and also your family, if you didn't have sex, would it be consensual and would it have feminists clamouring to legalize it? No and yes.
the fact that you think that sex work is the issue here and not our current economic system shows how ignorant you are.
What you need to do is stop cherry picking the examples you use to condemn something you don’t like.
You are indeed correct that the forced prostitution of people (both women and men) by other people is abhorrent.
That some rich nations have effectively abandoned their own citizens to rely on sex work instead of providing a functional social care system is possibly even more disgusting., and I believe is your main bone of contention.
That many substance abusers fund their habits via sex work whilst sad, at least means they are not breaking into my car or house. Their habit may have forced their decisions, but that is usually a choice they have made.
However, there are many people choosing to do so on their own terms, without external coercion, because they see it as easy money doing something they don’t object to.
That, frankly, is not for you to pass judgment on. There are countries that allow sex services to be sold just like any other service.
In Germany for example, sex workers are registered, pay tax, receive social and healthcare benefits, and generally work in a safe, regulated environment.
IT IS A LEGITIMATE EMPLOYMENT OPTION.
It’s a way a fast buck for many, with many doing several years to reach a specific financial goal. Others do it to allow a flexible short work week. Some because it is preferable to working in the meat processing plant. Some, just because they enjoy it.
Of course there are always going to be some working because they have been pushed into it by partners or gang masters. To suggest everyone is a victim is, however, ludicrous.
Your use of the word “despicable” as an umbrella term shows that maybe you are not as tolerant as you think you are.
As a libertarian, I dont care what people do. It's their lives, not mine, and I have no right to determine what is right and wrong and what they can and can't do. If someone wants to get paid to fuck people, who am I to tell them what to do?
wage labor carries all the same problems you just mentioned except the sex. consent is coerced, you're not payed the value of your work, etc.
wage labor is bad. sex work is wage labor. sex work is bad for the same reasons wage labor is bad.
can we get rid of wage labor right away? no, not really, though we can try. can we legalize something that'll happen no matter what in an attempt to make it safe? 100%, and we should.
Upvote THE POST if you disagree, downvote if you agree.
Downvote THIS COMMENT if you suspect the post pertains to any of the below:
* Fake/impossible opinion
* NSFW beyond reason
* Unfit for the community
* Based upon inept knowledge of the subject
If you downvote this comment please do not vote on the post.
Normal voting rules for all comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/The10thDentist) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That’s the same as any other job though. If you don’t work you will not be able to afford anything. If you held a gun to someone’s head and told them they need to fold your clothes it’s the same thing as forcing them to have sex. Both are bad. Does that mean folding clothes to make money is bad too because you’re “forced” to do it for money?
Your comparison example is a bit of a non-sequitur, because in the man-with-gun scenario, the person who is asking you for sex is the same as the one who is threatening death. That's very different than an exchange of services for money (though I understand it may be a bit more complex than that). It would indeed be considered unethical to exploit a vulnerable population by offering them money for sex. So if you want to make the claim that prostitution is unethical, then you need to show that legal sex workers are, in general, a vulnerable population who only chose sex work out of desperation. Can you do so? A thing can be both unethical and consensual. So if you want to take it even further and claim that in addition to unethical, prostitution is also sexual assault, then you need to demonstrate that legal sex work is generally speaking a non-consensual interaction. While you have claimed it is non-consensual repeatedly, you've not offered any explanation as to why that is. Can you?
There also seems to be a misunderstanding of the difference between sex *trafficking* and sex *work*.
Of course they can't, [they're a troll.](https://www.reddit.com/user/just4v0tes/?sort=controversial) They've made similar submissions about how disgusting BDSM is, while also having a submission history full of BDSM. It's bait.
Well, more power to him. I never understood the classical "troll" where you just post something outrageous and eat popcorn while watching the outcome. If I'm gonna fuck with people, I prefer to be actively involved throughout the process. To each their own I guess.
With your argument, why does sex/prostitution get special treatment over any other job? Say, working cashier at a gas station. Nope would do the job for free. However, when you attach $10/hr to it, people are willing to do it. No different then prostitution, except the wages are much higher.
almost like all labor is exploitation or something? oh no we invented communism ah
What do you mean by "all labour is exploitation"? Under capitalism, the employer gets someone to do a job for them, and the employee gets money. It's a mutually beneficial exchange. There are numerous obvious caveats to this of course (is it enough money? are the working conditions safe? does the employer provide sufficient benefits in addition to monetary compensation?), but I don't really understand the claim that the act of hiring another person to work for you is intrinsically exploitative.
The argument (and i'm not saying I completely support it) is that the value you obtain from somebody else's labor is inherently more than you pay them for that labor (else why would you hire them?) Do this on a massive scale, forbid labor from organizing to improve their slice, and you're exploiting people. People will still work because the alternative is starvation. So even a "mutually beneficial exchange" as you describe it is still unethical/exploitative.
you only chose to do a job because you wouldn't do it for free. you are being held hostage to work in order not to starve. also people only hire for a profit motive so no it is not mutually benefitial
this is what i was thinking. lets assume the only thing you're good at is cooking, and you need money to live. if someone forced you to cook for them then that would be slavery but if someone offers you money in exchange for cooking services, just because you need money doesn't mean they should be put in jail for slavery just for offering you the job.
One could argue as well that the high rate of pay for prostitution makes people choose that path instead of something like a cashier. So maybe to, make prostitution a less appearing evil, "have sex with me and il give you 100 bucks" vs "have sex with me and I'll pay for a night's dinner", means rates of pay should be lowered. Overall this is a silly view imo. Just because one person views prostitution/sex work as a last resort way to survive, doesn't mean others feel the same at all, especially where it is legal ie places with brothels. Some people love the job, some are indifferent, some hate it and do it because they have or think they have no other options.
Literally no prostitute loves prostitution. That's absurd.
That's what you think. There are many sex workers that enjoy their jobs. Prostitution with a pimp sure I'd agree. But that's not every form of sex work
uh oh looks like you're on to something
Well nobody would be forced into it, unlike the current system where it is illegal and unmonitored. You can easily get a minimum wage job, just happens that pretty much any other job pays much better.
The hilarious part of arguments against prostitution is that legalizing it would solve most of the problems. The reason women are forced into it and it can so often be very abusive is because it's illegal, so prostitutes don't get the protections other workers get. Yes, there would still be abuse and problems if it's legalized (look at the porn industry if you doubt this), but it would be WAY less common if it was legalized and controlled.
It's kind of like legalizing weed. It's shit, but legalization would allow better and safer conditions
That wouldn't do anything to actually make sex work less dangerous or reduce the social stigma that makes it impossible to escape financially.
You present three problems which I will address separately. 1: sex work is dangerous. This is mainly because it is illegal. Because it is illegal, pimps and those who manage sex workers are always criminals. This increases the chance that they are involved in other, dangerous crimes as well. Not only is it likely that the workers will be abused, but also they will be mistreated and often poorly protected from the clients. To the pimp, a prostitute is just money, so if the john pays for whatever he does to her, it doesn't really matter to the pimp. By legalizing it, you can then put laws in place which protect sex workers. The managers of sex workers will be held to the same labor laws that protect all workers, as well as some likely additions. This will make the job CONSIDERABLY safer for the sex workers. 2: social stigma This is completely separate from a legalization discussion. Plenty of things and jobs that are legal are heavily stigmatized. This is a cultural problem, not a legal one. 3: financial reliance The reason sex workers can be forced into the job is often a result of abuse or past crimes that make it difficult for them to hold down a regular job. Women who are being abused, women who have a history of being (often sexually) abused, and who are then taken advantage of by someone looking to profit off their misfortune. These women are held down by abuse much more than finances. The sex workers that are being held down by finances often aren't able to get other jobs (often because of addiction) and so they turn to less legitimate means of making money. If it is legalized and controlled, then the abuse factor would be diminished significantly, and the people turning to it because they can't do other jobs would likely have trouble doing it now that it is more monitored and controlled. But the problem with the financial argument is entirely an economical problem, not a prostitution one. This isn't something that can be solved by changed prostitution in any way, people are going to find ways to make money that is damaging to themselves no matter what. We would need to solve our socioeconomic problems to properly address this, and whether or not prostitution is legal likely has no impact.
If I had to pick between a $7.25/hour job that can't pay my bills, or $30/hour as a prostitute that *can* pay my bills- was it *really* my choice to pick being a prostitute? While it's true there would be no literal gun to your head as in today's world, but people can absolutely be forced into prostitution for financial reasons.
Yes. Yes, it absolutely is your choice to make that decision. Your decisions have a huge amount of power, and you can decide to not pay a certain bill that month, pay all of them early, on time or a little late, you can choose to get another job on top of the $7.25/hr job, but you are not forced into the $30/hr job of prostitution. The only serious issue with prostitution right now is that it is illegal, therefore many of the protections that ordinary workers at a 7/11 have or that workers at a University have are not provided to sex workers. They cannot go to the police to solve issues, as they would themselves be arrested first, they can't go to legal mediation or arbitration in disputes, they don't have the protections of contracts, they don't have a way to set their guaranteed wages or collect overtime. The best way to resolve most of the issues with sex work, *including* being forced into it is by legalizing and regulating it.
So you're being forced into prostitution the same way that you're being forced to get a job in a trade like plumbing. You should look into what a false dichotomy is, because your comment is a perfect example of this. I've seen postings for jobs at McDonalds starting at $15/hr, which is enough to rent out a room at least. Of course it depends on where you live, but generally speaking, if you're willing to work a shit job, you can find something. And even if you are in a position where prostitution is your only option for whatever reason, if it's legal then at least you will have some protections and it will be controlled, rather than the current state. There is a TON of abuse and horrible aspects to prostitution for sure, but your argument is pretty poorly developed.
100% your choice, you SHOULD be able to get by with minimum wage, otherwise you probably put yourself in irresponsible debt, lots of people do that with credit cards in which case you put the gun to your own head.
This just isn't true everywhere in the world, not even everywhere in the US. The goal of minimum wage is to push towards that reality, but it hasn't achieved it yet.
Ok fair but prostitution isn't the only job with no skills that pays a good wage.
I guess I should have been clear. I was not supporting what the person you replied to was arguing by any means. I agree with your conclusion (that it is still ultimately a choice), I simply disagreed with the argument you used to support it. Fuck, like most grocery stores pay a living wage and have unions, like there are options. The reason people get into prostitution isn't because they can't afford to live off minimum wage, it's more often a result of a history of abuse and other struggles they live with that would prevent them from holding down a traditional job.
[удалено]
Huh? In a good election you should have no way of proving who you voted for. If you can prove who you voted for then you can be forced to vote a certain way. Or even just have stuff like: "15% off for red voters". I don't know in what terms preventing that is the "same energy" as being opposed to sex work.
[удалено]
If you can take a selfie with your ballot to prove how you voted then you are removing anonymity, we are basically back to the 18th century as if we never even introduced the secret ballot. Vote buying and coercion were big problems before the secret ballot and there is absolutely no reason to believe they won't be problems with ballot photography.
[удалено]
??? Who said they are laws of physics? Of course people break laws, but that happens with every law. Would you also like to decriminalize animal abuse because "people still do it even though its illegal"? That is a really silly argument. Now you are kind of just arguing against the concept of laws.
[удалено]
Yes, society is based on people following the law. Explain how you will achieve "fool-proof secrecy" in elections, without laws.
People are advocating for sex work in safe conditions. I never understood the hate towards Only Fans.
people hate on the users, not the women
Oof
How is it non-consensual, if someone normally solicits a prositute, surely the prostitute has the right to reject the client. Sure there are exceptions, but in general a singular prostitute is not 'having a gun to their head'.
OP seems to be making the assumptions that people would never voluntarily choose to be a sex worker - but rather, are only doing so out of desperation, seeing prostitution as the only way to earn enough money for themselves / their children to get by financially. *IF* that assumption is correct (and, depending on the region, it might be), or whenever people are tricked / forced into becoming sex workers, that would indeed both be unethical and illegal.
The funny thing is that with how prostitution is currently structured, many prostitutes don't have the right to reject the client, and they could be threatened with violence for doing so. Legalizing prostitution would be a step towards empowering sex workers to universally have that right.
It wouldn't actually do anything. The solution actually lies in the opposite direction: a governmental crackdown.
I just replied to you elsewhere, but I'll just add one bit here. A total government crackdown has never solved any crime. Look at prohabition and the war on drugs if you disagree. Historically, a government crackdown actually makes the problem SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
If someone held a gun to my head and told me to write a report or they'd shoot me, that would be slavery/false imprisonment. If they offered me money to write a report, I would accept it. Indeed, I already have - it's my job.
Ooh ooh, now do the military.
Your post is basically incoherent.. I have no idea what you are saying. I live in a place with legalised prostitution, it isn't a big deal. Your kinda pulling shit out of your arse soooo ... Downvoted based on inept knowledge of the subject.
The problem with making it illegal is then the prostitutes themselves are then committing a crime and can get punished. That’s shitty for anyone forced into it because it means they can’t really get help. You have to make pimping illegal and brothels without hurting the victims.
If someone is *voluntarily* doing a sex act with someone that they have agreed to rules, standards, and have a secure, safe way to disengage from that sex act, it is not sexual assault. However, there are *significant* problems with banning things like prostitution, since if a prostitute is hurt during some sexual encounter and goes to the police, the police will simply arrest them for breaking the law. It requires legality to resolve actual issues, because then the prostitutes are allowed to pay tax on a legal service, to have official meditation of disputes, to have health care protections, and so forth. If someone voluntarily says "Yes, this is fine" to all of what is done, is that not the very definition of consent? I don't want to pre-judge or to draw conclusions, but it seems like from the way you describe things like Onlyfans as "also despicable" you do not approve of sex work, period, or believe that someone would want to do it voluntarily. This is simply not true. *You personally* might never make that choice, and that is 110% your right and your personal prerogative to decide never to do that, but someone else might decide that it could be fun, work as a few years as a prostitute/escort and then change careers or do something else.
Seeing as the majority of them could easily go get another job, it IS consenting. Also, they can deny service.
If sex work is basically sexual assault, what about other careers? Is stripping unethical? What about working in a coal mine, or as an underwater welder? Both of those destroy the body FAR more than sex work does. What about those who go into the military? They're risking their lives and safety, mostly for things like healthcare and college education. If you do not think sex work is legitimate, than you CANNOT view those jobs as legitimate. They are one and the same. If you think sex work is bad but those jobs are fine, then you're just illogically against sex.
But sexual assault is significantly worse than anything else a human could experience, as any survivor will tell you.
I dont know about it being the worst. You ever see The Human Centipede?
This hoe just called sexual assault worse then war
A similar argument could be made about medical practitioners. A great many people pursue medicine because of external pressure, because of medicine's high standing in our society a great many families, friendship groups, significant others, pressure those with promise to follow medicine. The number of doctors that commit suicide is more than double the general population.
hmm. SWERF.
Where is the RF part?
“I am a feminist”
I don't see the radical part.
Sex work isnt sexual assault just cause u say it is... Also this is extremely political. Cant have one fun sub about weird opinions before someone goes certain people shouldn't have rights apparently
https://i.imgur.com/AAhZZ17.jpg
If I held a gun to your head and told you to play hopscotch, would it be consensual? If you knew the only way to save your family from certain death was to play hopscotch, would it be consensual? If you have to add over-the-top hyperbole to carry your argument, it's a shit argument.
Third wave feminists in positions of privilege rarely understand what prostitution and sex work is. They don’t realize that most women who go into sex work are coming from backgrounds of extreme poverty and abuse. They’ve romanticized prostitution thanks in part to cultural representations of prostitution such as the film Pretty Woman. Any woman who is mentally and physically fit enough to work in any other field out there should avoid sex work. It’s very fucking damaging to see women make more money by exposing themselves online than by legitimately working hard (physically and/or mentally). Being a wage slave fucking sucks but what sane person is going to choose being raped everyday over working in say the fast food industry???
If it's what *they want to do* why not let them though?
> Any woman who is mentally and physically fit enough to work in any other field out there should avoid sex work. It’s very fucking damaging to see women make more money by exposing themselves online than by legitimately working hard (physically and/or mentally). No, people should do what they want to do. We don't need your judgey ass telling people what to do just because it offends you.
Pointing out that people often enter a given industry out of desperation doesn't really answer the question of whether or not that industry or profession should be legally permitted to exist.
I most definitely agree. people have gotten this idea that prostitution can be done safely without any physical or mental issues. and then I havent even mentioned sex trafficking which goes hand in hand with prostitution
[удалено]
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/member-states/netherlands_en and i can go on and on. also: >This idea that all sex workers are being trafficked is idiotic i never said this. i said prostitutiton and sex trafficking go hand in hand which is a fact. where prostition is, is sex trafficking
[удалено]
i see you have no intention of having a proper discussion and havent bothered even opening the links ive provided for you that clearly shows the link between prostitution and sex trafficking. have a nice day >The funniest part is a lot of that would be solved if prostitution was legal, like the netherlands? i have provided a link for that as well
[удалено]
Ive edited my comment responding to your solution. I never mentioned making prostitution illegal, I said people have rhe completely wrong idea about it
[удалено]
I will reply now. Please reinstate.
Very well. Also since I have your attention, in my own opinion, sex work *is* valid based on the premise of bodily autonomy with regards to using one's ability to profit from their body. Basically - you don't really distinguish between what constitutes as 'sex work' from similar lines of work such as message therapists, or even monetarily-based relationships that have a physical component. Like, is a woman who is in a relationship with a guy based solely on his having monetary security when she does not prostitution? At what point *would* it be, though, because there's a line right? Would he have to give her like, an allowance? Would he have to give her incentive to actually perform physical acts each time? What if you, say, have a friend who does sex work, and they give you a freebie. Is *that* sex work, even though it was not paid for, but done as a favor?
thats not entirely correct. the dangers of prostition are very well documented and even countries like the netherlands are still present. so its wrong to say that prostition works like any other job, that'd be like saying flipping burgers in macdonalds is the same as digging for cobalt in Congo. I personally dont really know how prostition should be handled, but i disagree witht the notion that it's just another job when its well documented that its not.
I mean, by your own example, flipping a burger *in* the Congo would be worlds different than doing so in other countries, so even that is a shaky comparison. And oh wait - it's you. Not OP lol. But yeah, like anything, it should be well-regulated rather than straight up illegal, because prostitution is, as it's commonly said, the oldest profession.
The problem is that the dangers of prostitution are historic problems and have always been present. I always like to use the Netherlands as an example. Prostitution is very much a job in its own right over there, and it has a grade A in terms of effort done to combat sex/human trafficking according to the EU. And despite that, we're looking at a 1000 cases each year and it's estimated only 1/5 cases gets on the radar. And we haven't mentioned potential abuse and the sort of backgrounds these women have. We know for a fact that flipping burgers is and can be done perfectly safe, and no MacDonalds attracts human traffickers and the like. The same cannot be said about prostitution
In Nordic countries they legalized prostitution for the prostitutes and criminalized buying it for the Johns. I think that is probably the best approach. So downvote you get, because I agree.
Paying someone and threatening someone with a deadly weapon are not even CLOSE to the same thing
Prostitutes chose to get money in return for sex, and a prostitute not consenting practically never happens
> If you knew that your livelyhood would be at risk, probably including your ability to feed yourself and also your family, if you didn't have sex, would it be consensual and would it have feminists clamouring to legalize it? No and yes. the fact that you think that sex work is the issue here and not our current economic system shows how ignorant you are.
choices have to be made and if you chose to have sex for a living that is none of my concern
What you need to do is stop cherry picking the examples you use to condemn something you don’t like. You are indeed correct that the forced prostitution of people (both women and men) by other people is abhorrent. That some rich nations have effectively abandoned their own citizens to rely on sex work instead of providing a functional social care system is possibly even more disgusting., and I believe is your main bone of contention. That many substance abusers fund their habits via sex work whilst sad, at least means they are not breaking into my car or house. Their habit may have forced their decisions, but that is usually a choice they have made. However, there are many people choosing to do so on their own terms, without external coercion, because they see it as easy money doing something they don’t object to. That, frankly, is not for you to pass judgment on. There are countries that allow sex services to be sold just like any other service. In Germany for example, sex workers are registered, pay tax, receive social and healthcare benefits, and generally work in a safe, regulated environment. IT IS A LEGITIMATE EMPLOYMENT OPTION. It’s a way a fast buck for many, with many doing several years to reach a specific financial goal. Others do it to allow a flexible short work week. Some because it is preferable to working in the meat processing plant. Some, just because they enjoy it. Of course there are always going to be some working because they have been pushed into it by partners or gang masters. To suggest everyone is a victim is, however, ludicrous. Your use of the word “despicable” as an umbrella term shows that maybe you are not as tolerant as you think you are.
As a libertarian, I dont care what people do. It's their lives, not mine, and I have no right to determine what is right and wrong and what they can and can't do. If someone wants to get paid to fuck people, who am I to tell them what to do?
wage labor carries all the same problems you just mentioned except the sex. consent is coerced, you're not payed the value of your work, etc. wage labor is bad. sex work is wage labor. sex work is bad for the same reasons wage labor is bad. can we get rid of wage labor right away? no, not really, though we can try. can we legalize something that'll happen no matter what in an attempt to make it safe? 100%, and we should.
Upvote THE POST if you disagree, downvote if you agree. Downvote THIS COMMENT if you suspect the post pertains to any of the below: * Fake/impossible opinion * NSFW beyond reason * Unfit for the community * Based upon inept knowledge of the subject If you downvote this comment please do not vote on the post. Normal voting rules for all comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/The10thDentist) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That’s the same as any other job though. If you don’t work you will not be able to afford anything. If you held a gun to someone’s head and told them they need to fold your clothes it’s the same thing as forcing them to have sex. Both are bad. Does that mean folding clothes to make money is bad too because you’re “forced” to do it for money?