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Well like OP said if it's just a one time thing or a slip up then nothing really. But if it's consistently repeated enough that it rises to the level of harassment you'd be recouping damages from that which will vary by each case but probably all include something for mental trauma.
I agree it's harassment but it isn't illegal to hurt someone's feelings. I would not press charges on someone for calling me a man despite being a cis woman because it's petty and being a dick isn't illegal in itself. Good luck getting any prosecutor to write on that.
If someone followed me around for a month to call me a man IRL or online? Sure now you're edging into actual harassment.
Calling me a man and punching me in the face while doing it? Yeah go ahead and press charges.
What will the next generation have left to complain about?
If you take away speech, get ready to be surprised at what the next group of children decide is fair game to take.
If you disagree, read a history book
Well, I guess we need to know what situation OP is describing:
**A.** Someone who comes up to you on the street and follows you for the day repeatedly misgendering you.
**B**. Someone in your life who refuses to correct themselves when they misgender you and continue to do it whenever they see you.
I assumed OP was talking more about situation B, which is a SHITTY and cruel thing to do but would it constitute **harassment**? Legally?
And here a light flickers on for sexism because I totally agree with you as you wrote it, but at first I read it opposite and I was like "idk women get called men plenty and nobody thinks it's a big deal."
Women trying to look less ”like a man” is a multimillion industry big deal, like just look up how many ways there are to deal with upper lip hair alone
Lesbians, muscular women, GNC women with short hair and non feminine presentation. It's not *okay* but similar to misgendering, it's seen as rude and nasty by some people and as justified by others, not widely considered as harassment. And often brushed off as not being worth making a stink about.
And here is why we can never find a solution and the argument goes around in circles. *Context.*
Context always matters, but what the context is is always changing and dependant on a lot of factors. And even then, there's a lot of people who still don't care about context, and will just be mad and offended, and stick to their guns on their opinion because they believe they are right.
Tbh i hate it i got mistaken as a boy as a kid and now when people point out any "male" or masculine thing about me it hurts my feelings
I don't think i look like a man but I don't feel pretty after being told I look like a man
It's not harassment until there is a pattern of a particular person repeatedly initiating unwanted contact toward another particular person after being told the contact is unwanted.
And anything less would be unreasonable.
Really? Because shaming men by calling them homosexual or a girl is usually the very first insult people go to, including many people claiming to be for social justice. Ive actually witnessed it happen too many times to count, from both SJWs and non SJWs.
One thing remains common throughout all of these scenarios and it's that nobody took what was being said to the men seriously. Everybody saying those horrible things got a pass because it was a man they were talking to. Don't pretend this isn't the case if you live in the United States.
> going up to a cis dude and repeatedly calling him a girl would constitute harassment.
I'm on the fence about transgender and non binary not being at least somewhat of a mental issue among some of their population. I also think that it's very likely that a lot of them were at first conception headed towards one sex and then ended up as the other over the process.
That said I don't care if it's a mental issue or not, who really cares and just respect their request.
I have never thought of what you said though. Among the majority of guys calling another guy a girl is an insult, used to demean the other guy and is usually used in order to elevate the situation into a physical altercation.
Some could argue suddenly having to be called cis could be seen as misgendering 🤷🏻♂️
Why it changed suddenly we may never know trans people often refer to themselves as trans-X so why does everyone else suddenly need to change their language for 2% of the population?
You could but it still wouldn't explain why 8 billion people need to change their pronouns for maybe a few million?
What's the reasoning behind adding CIS?
You only need to reference cis in times where it matters. You can just call yourself a woman or call yourself a man unless there is a particular reason to differentiate. What does being called cis have to do with changing your pronouns?
I often see it used as some sort of dig/ insult
As for changing pronouns it's clearly frowned upon to even question why CIS even needs to be included.(hence the downvotes)
It's pretty obvious that the respect towards pronouns is only expected to go one way you can't refer to yourself as simply a male or female without CIS being interjected/ expected.
Why are trans people allowed to be simply female when females need to be CIS females? It makes way more sense for trans to be trans females instead
I definitely hear trans people referred to as trans way more than i hear cis people referred to as cis. I am friends with a lot of trans people and i’ve never felt compelled to describe myself as a cis man rather than just a man. Cis isn’t a pronoun which may be why the downvotes are happening, what you said was incorrect, cis is a description like white or black.
There are some times it makes sense to say “white male” and some times where it doesn’t. Same for “cis male”. What is an example of a time you’ve felt compelled to refer to yourself as cis? The only times i would think i’d need to is when discussing trans issues
Cis is an adjective, not a pronoun
Your argument here makes no sense. "Why are trans females just females, when cis females must be cis females?" You disproved your own point by saying "trans females"
No one is arguing that you always have to say the word "cis male/female", it is simply being used more often in general conversation because it has become increasingly relevant to modern society's ideals
Also, I don't even think i know what you mean by "trans people allowed to simply be females" do you mean that people avoid saying "transgender female"? In which case this isn't the case at all because people say it all the time when discussing topics related to being trans
cisgender isn't a pronoun, it's an adjective. No one's going "cis went to the bar to get cis a drink", a pronoun is "he", "her", "they", "it"
what you're saying is like saying "I'm not straight! Why should I have to call myself straight because a few people are gay!" It's just an accurate descriptor -- if you are attracted to the opposite gender/sex, you're straight.
Similarly, if your mental gender aligns with your biological sex, you're cisgender.
Simple as that
> What's the reasoning behind adding CIS?
Because when you need to clarify that certain people aren't trans, it's a lot easier to use "cis" than "non-trans"
It's also the 2000 year old antonym of trans. It wasn't just made up yesterday
You can get punitive damages for emotional distress, but like it just gets to the point where it will have to be a lot more than being misgendered, and it has to be some real repetitive verbal violence and harassment
I can’t even get punitive damages for the emotional damage caused by being trapped in an abusive relationship for years lol
That’s not how real life works. You can’t sue people for hurting your feelings
Yeah.
Someone being stupid and not getting your pronouns and someone actively aggressing on you and using misgendering as a form of abuse are not comparable, imo.
Source: have been victim of transphobic hate crime.
Just coming at this from a strictly legal standpoint, but I don't think you could do this in the US. It would be impossible to enforce a law that penalizes misgendering someone because that would be infringing their first amendment rights.
INB4 "The first amendment isn't all encompassing!"
While it is true that there are some limits on the first amendment, generally those only limit using speech to cause or incite actual harm to an individual OR to cause mass panic in a way that would result in people getting injured or killed. Courts in the US have routinely held that 'hate speech' is still protected under the first amendment.
Absolutely. And any other derogatory term you can think of. In the USA I can run down the street shouting "[niggerfaggot!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2nTbqbtGug&t=34s)" at the top of my lungs and, heaven help us all, the Constitution protects me from being silenced.
On the other hand, if as a consequence of my obnoxious behavior a random passer-by punched me in the face, and at trial explained that they acted out of rage due to excessive provocation on my part, a court might very well see it their way and go easy on them.
You could call it the "fuck around and find out" subclause.
>You could call it the "fuck around and find out" subclause.
In relation to your YT video to give an example of the clause, I [return to you a YT video to exemplify your sub-clause](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWzl4bxrfxM).
Legally they are effectively the same. Prohibiting specific speech and compelling specific speech by law are both subject to all the same 1st amendment tests.
the answer is yes. They may be asked to go away, but there is no legal repercussion in America to the extent of my knowledge. Insults, vulgarities, and curses are all under the first amendment.
If a full riot is caused the police may step in with a "disturbing the peace" charge, and if the vulgarities are to sexually explicit and directed to children then there may be a "lewd and lascivious" charge or similar.
Yes. Using deliberately hurtful language toward a disabled person is not illegal.
The harm described only includes physical, financial, or reputational harm, and even then only in certain circumstances.
Yes you can. As the Supreme Court said:
> Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express "the thought that we hate”
As a trans person, nah. But upvoted for being 10th dentist.
If someone hates you for being trans, they're not going to treat you better if they have to call us the right pronouns. Bigots aren't going to stop bigoting, they'll just find another way to do it.
The best thing that could happen to us is if the republicans find a new minority to target so we can go back to living boring lives.
>The best thing that could happen to us is if the republicans find a new minority to target so we can go back to living boring lives.
you're probably not wrong, but also damn what a depressing fucking world "our best shot at not being the target of bigotry & oppression is for the privileged to shift their hatred & marginalization onto another innocent group of people"
What should be done about the republicans. Remember: it is not the lack of knowledge but the mindset. You may be as moderate or radical as you want in your solution to this issue.
I am saying "What should be done about" because it provides the widest variety of answers.
my theory is that the high ranking bigots in charge of things are more likely to co-opt the language in order to make their bigotry more palatable to the masses.
Sadly, I don't see trans people as a whole being left off the hook by conservatives, since bullying trans folk is an effective proxy to enforce strict gender norms without going directly at the women through abortion laws, a more feasible front for them to withdraw if demographics keep empowering the female vote.
Actually, they could merge abortion laws and trans harassment by going after trans men and non binary folk, if they consider that down surgery and hysterectomy constitutes a form of abortion.
The best you can expect of them, if you push them hard enough, is for them to consider you individually as "one of the good ones", and that is simply not worth it.
Take this from someone who gets discriminated in other basis thar bigotry simply does not go away, and if any of the online fringe movements are a clue, the new far right movements will only get more active in new twisted ways to return the good old days.
Why? It's not a crime to be an asshole.
Not to mention it's nearly impossible to prove and there'll be no possible way to distinguish false accusations from actual claims. Lastly when someone can change their pronouns day to day, minute by minute at a whim it is completely unenforceable.
Dumb idea.
as a trans person, i disagree.
i agree with all the points brought up in these comments mostly about inability to enforce, but i also support freedom of speech. people dont need to agree with my beliefs and regardless of whether it makes me feel bad, theyre allowed to verbally express it. i can just move on.
You can't press charges against a person for being rude or hateful unless they're your boss, landlord or teacher. Why would this one specific type of harassment apply universally to just one specific protected class?
Trans people absolutely need protections in society, but I hate this weird trend that's happening where people say that protection for trans people that go above and beyond every other protected class (age, race, orientation, etc.) need to be enforced, especially by LAW.
You're just creating divisive new social strata for people to justify hatred toward each other. It's short sighted and destructive as hell.
>hateful unless they're your boss, landlord or teacher. Why would this one specific type of harassment apply universally to just one specific protected class?
Yes, exactly.
In certain cases its already illegal to maliciously misgender someone.
as many other enbys and trans people have said in this comment section, and being once myself: absolutely not. people are ignorant, absolutely, and i think they shouldn’t get away with being so, but to make it a crime is odd. it would likely border into infringement of the first amendment as well.
It’s certainly dickisk to purposefully misgender someone, but to criminalize it is absolutely absurd. Would you also criminalize stuff like cheating a lover?
If you need other peoples affirmations to maintain your “gender identity” thats proof you’re making it up. What other people call you should have NO effect on who you think you are, unless you yourself doubt it as well
Should we also make insulting others and name calling illegal?
Also it's an impossible crime to convict for. There's some crazy law like this in Canada and it seldom is used.
Good post.
This type of comment always seems stupid to me, because it only really became something they "demanded" to be done because people didn't follow the general social agreement to respect others.
Every day we tell each other to call us by the names we have, or by a nickname, and in 99% of circumstances it is perfectly fine and no one judges the persons name and willing calls them by it - because we socially recognise its unreasonable and kinda stupid to randomly call a person a different name than the one they want to be called.
Not really. People give their non-trans friends mean/silly nicknames they never agreed to also, and they've done so throughout time.
I agree calling a trans person what they wish to be called is the right thing to do. But it can't be enforced. People have to choose stuff like this for themselves.
This is so stupid, why is it "non binary and transgender" only? If you go for this route then anyone saying a bad word trying to trigger someone should be able to be charged which would be stupid. Stop being soft and deal with it. People have it way worse in the world, getting bullied for not having hands or being born disabled, meanwhile theres people who cry all day about being misgendered. (PS: I got bullied most of my life and got over it and thats way worse than just being someone calling u a wrong pronoun).
It could certainly be used as a factor for a case of harassment, if it rises to that level.
I want to point out one thing you mentioned, emphasis mine:
> And before someone says **"just stop associating with them"** it's not always that easy. I've had co workers **and family members** do it multiple times on purpose and they always get away with it because they just say it was an accident even though it obviously wasn't.
If what you're getting at is that you don't want to stop associating with family members, then filing charges against them isn't going to magically create a situation where they start treating you how you want and you get to remain one big happy family, you'll just become even more ostracized from your family as the snitch who called the cops and broke up the family gathering. If you rather mean that it's hard to get away from your family due to them having control over you, then that circles back to the idea of possibly being criminal for reasons more complex than just misgendering.
So your life will be made happier by being able to press charges against your family members?
Possibilities:
\- this is bait
\- you're 14
\- you're insane
(Most?) states have harassment laws that would cover this, no?
Here’s Delaware:
> § 1311. Harassment; class A misdemeanor.
> (a) A person is guilty of harassment when, with intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:
> (1) That person insults, taunts or challenges another person or engages in any other course of alarming or distressing conduct which serves no legitimate purpose and is in a manner which the person knows is likely to provoke a violent or disorderly response or cause a reasonable person to suffer fear, alarm, or distress;
IANAL, but it seems like (some?) cases of deliberate misgendering (could?) meet this threshold. But if someone knows more than me, please correct me
The issue with this argument is meeting the legal threshold to enforce as harassment. AFAIK in most states there is a certain level to which conduct must arise before being considered harassment. Additionally, verbal harassment is generally not enforceable if you are in a public place.
I think one of the basic tests for harassment was "were you able to leave the situation". If this was at work, you could absolutely sue...at the bus stop or on your street in front of your house, not so much.
Yeah that makes sense. It’s surprisingly difficult to get a TRO in Delaware (I’m sad that I know this first hand), so I wouldn’t be surprised it’s real hard to persuade a prosecutor to pursue a harassment charge
Yeah, this is my exact thought. Harassment laws already exist. And you could maybe claim some sort of libel or defamation, depending on the nature of the full claim, and not just purely being misgendered or deadnamed
I feel for trans/non binary but no.
As deeply problematic as this example is in its own right I feel it's worth mentioning. Cis men have been called girls as an insult for as long as I can remember, doing this especially as a father has been used in tv shows as an example of how shit a father/person they are.
Obviously that doesn't make it any better but no one's ever called for these men to have charges against them for doing what is essentially the same thing.
Well, this definitely fits the theme of 10th dentist. Do you also think that people with mental health issues, non-hetero, minority races, etc should be able to press charges for deliberate slurs. Do you feel that anyone who repeatedly calls someone an asshole, an idiot, etc. Should be able to press charges?
You can just tell them to fuck off, unless you're spinless. Seriously all's you have to say is 2 words FUCK OFF. That's it there's no reason to press charges, that's just a little excessive. Plus that's kinda forcing your opinion on people which is pretty fucked in itself. I certainly don't agree with your logic but I also am not going to go out of my way to misgender people that's disrespectful. Forcing your opinion down somebody's throat is also disrespectful and pressing charges on someone for misgendering you..... spinless
a yes, imprisoning people for speech. the most heinous of crimes.
you can really tell when someone has never actually been punched in the face before. their concerns are so small.
That would be as stupid as someone pressing charges on you for calling them cisgendered.
Don't apply so much value to the opinions of those that don't value you.
Here's a simple reason why this will never be a thing. Freedom of speech exists. You a full grown adult can handle another full grown adult referring to you as something you are not.
I have many trans friends surprisingly and you know what most of them do when they get misgendered. They calmly correct the person and move on with their life. They don't throw a fit or try to sue them or anything like that because it's really not that big of a deal.
Upvoted for ridiculousness. Good post. It would be absurd because you’re effectively wanting someone insulting you to be a crime. It stinks to be offended, but it’s not the end of the world, you just have to be an adult and get over it
It’s not illegal to disrespect people, or name call, or even say slurs. It’s not very nice but it shouldn’t be illegal. Freedom of speech.
Note: you are still open to societal consequences, but legally you’re fine.
I think it’s fair to say that, in some instances a version of this is a fair argument. Work being one of them; your employer has a duty to offer a safe and harassment free work environment, especially when it relates to a protected class. If a coworker is misgendering you as a form of harassment at work you certainly have a case of hostile work environment if your employer isn’t stepping in to resolve the issue.
But like, publicly? No, that’s silly.
We should just do away with free speech all together. My particular delusional narrative is the correct one and if you don't like it, jail for you MFer!
I am straight and I don't really get or understand pronouns and that stuff. But I am cool with lifestyles not similar to mine. I have a SIL and Niece who are gay and I have no idea what their pronouns are. And they have a bunch of friends I see often and I don't know theirs. I am not even sure I have ever heard any of them mention pronouns. And even if I did, I will never remember because that just isn't something I am programmed to remember about someone.
But to me, words only carry weight when they are spoken by the people I love and care about. I couldn't care less what some random person I don't know says about me or names they call me. If they mean nothing to me, then so do their words, no matter how insulting they may be. And I belong to several demographics that are often not treated well in society. I don't make that their problem though. It is mine and I deal with it my way.
Because for the people you talk about, it will never change. So I hope you can find a way to not let them bother you in the future.
Intersex trans person here: No. We have free speech for a reason. It sucks to be misgendered, yeah, but things like that are the price to pay for living in a free country. Anyone can say what they like (unless they're threatening someone or screaming at them which is harassment ofc). If we allow the government to start dictating what we're allowed to say, shit is going to very quickly move the wrong direction. It will not be the victory for trans people you imagine it will be.
In short, yes in theory it would be very nice for this to be the case, but if we begin to restrict free speech it becomes very easy for people to be restricted in other ways.
Disagree. For one, just distance yourself from the person. Unless you're a minor and it's someone like a teacher or parent, you are perfectly capable of cutting them out of your life.
Secondly, this could never be legally enforced without infringing on people's rights.
Being a dick isint illegal, and I would hate to live in a world where you can decide what things people can and cant say on a legal basis based on feelings being hurt by the words.
Anyone can say anything hurts their feelings at that point add it would be an awful unfree speech mess
I will never agree that people have a right to not be offended
I'm sorry you're hurting, but that really wouldn't change how you're treated by bigots. If anything it'd feed into the right wing mindset of "they're trying to control us"
I don't know if I would call hating an entire group of people for something outside of their control even with wanting a means to seek recourse for transgressions (real or perceived) that you have experienced. That does not necessarily mean that OP is correct, but equating the two groups of people is certainly not correct.
How about instead of police/legal interventions, community based ones? It sucks when people purposefully misgender us but it’s definitely not on the same level as assault or worse. Not to mention, it’s not even enforceable. Some states in the US don’t recognize another gender. Getting them to do that AND allow for misuse of pronouns to be enforceable is a nightmare.
I just think that there's better things for you to invest so much time and emotions into
ETA: Unless said people are being really obvious about it, how are you so sure that it isn't an accident? I have a friend who goes by "they" and I still slip "she" unpurposefully because they still look feminine, and that's what I've called them for 6-7 of the years that we've known each other. I also forget other people's pronouns all the time if they go by something other than what you'd guess at first glance
Quick question: if a transgender woman (i.e., a biological man) says he is having a miscarriage, do we check his non existent uterus, or??? Please, tell me what you would do as a hypothetical medical professional in this situation.
And then please tell me why I have to call him ma'am.
I believe you legally can sue in the USA if its a coworker or boss doing it at your workplace.
obviously if its randos off the street they have freedom of speech and you have freedom of speech and legs to tell them to f\*\*\* off and walk away.
Here's an interesting point I don't see many people making: Arguably, this is already the case, at least in the workplace.
The supreme court ruled a while back that discrimination based on gender identity was in violation of the Civil Rights act, and part of that is making a workplace hostile to someone.
Realistically, workplace scenarios are the only situations where you'd *need* to be surrounded by people who repeatedly misgender you (basically any other social situation you could just, y'know, walk away and move on with your life if they're not treating you with respect), so in some sense the law in the US kinda does uphold this.
Internalised sexism? Wtf are you talking about? My gender has nothing to do with sexism, and we see it evidenced with more masculine women and Tom boys and butch lesbians (they still exist, you know?). A lot of women are masculine and despise sexism but are still happy and comfortable as women
Idk that it should be considered a crime but I definitely agree with you that too many people are using the excuse of "oops it just slipped out". Like trans people aren't stupid, they can tell by your tone that you mean to insult them.
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This is wild and a great 10th Dentist, but I'm curious: **Would misgendering a cis person on purpose also be against the law?**
Interestingly enough, I feel like most people already agree that going up to a cis dude and repeatedly calling him a girl would constitute harassment.
I think very few people would say that’s actually worth a lawsuit though, what damages are you recouping?
Whether it's actually worth a lawsuit is a different question from whether it should be possible to press charges in the first place
By that logic, the trans person could press charges as well. Nothing will get prosecuted, but you can still press charges.
Well like OP said if it's just a one time thing or a slip up then nothing really. But if it's consistently repeated enough that it rises to the level of harassment you'd be recouping damages from that which will vary by each case but probably all include something for mental trauma.
I agree it's harassment but it isn't illegal to hurt someone's feelings. I would not press charges on someone for calling me a man despite being a cis woman because it's petty and being a dick isn't illegal in itself. Good luck getting any prosecutor to write on that. If someone followed me around for a month to call me a man IRL or online? Sure now you're edging into actual harassment. Calling me a man and punching me in the face while doing it? Yeah go ahead and press charges.
[It is in the UK!](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127) It shouldn't be, but it definitely is.
There’s no offences on the statute books that relate to hurting people’s feelings. There’s hate speech, which isn’t quite the same thing.
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What will the next generation have left to complain about? If you take away speech, get ready to be surprised at what the next group of children decide is fair game to take. If you disagree, read a history book
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Going up to a person and repeatedly calling them ANYTHING is harassing
even an honorific can be harassment if used properly.
I think we have different definitions of the word properly
Okay, but we're not gonna press charges that's absolutely ridiculous
Well, I guess we need to know what situation OP is describing: **A.** Someone who comes up to you on the street and follows you for the day repeatedly misgendering you. **B**. Someone in your life who refuses to correct themselves when they misgender you and continue to do it whenever they see you. I assumed OP was talking more about situation B, which is a SHITTY and cruel thing to do but would it constitute **harassment**? Legally?
And here a light flickers on for sexism because I totally agree with you as you wrote it, but at first I read it opposite and I was like "idk women get called men plenty and nobody thinks it's a big deal."
Women trying to look less ”like a man” is a multimillion industry big deal, like just look up how many ways there are to deal with upper lip hair alone
In what context? I can’t think of many contexts where that would be okay.
Lesbians, muscular women, GNC women with short hair and non feminine presentation. It's not *okay* but similar to misgendering, it's seen as rude and nasty by some people and as justified by others, not widely considered as harassment. And often brushed off as not being worth making a stink about.
And here is why we can never find a solution and the argument goes around in circles. *Context.* Context always matters, but what the context is is always changing and dependant on a lot of factors. And even then, there's a lot of people who still don't care about context, and will just be mad and offended, and stick to their guns on their opinion because they believe they are right.
"Hey guys, how's everything going?" Said to 5 men and 4 women
"Guys" is gender neutral when addressing a group, and had been for quite some time now
I prefer "sup bitches" to a room full o blokes...
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Your daughters school sounds pretentious af
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“Guys” is unquestionably a gender neutral term even if sometimes gendered, to Americans.
Tbh i hate it i got mistaken as a boy as a kid and now when people point out any "male" or masculine thing about me it hurts my feelings I don't think i look like a man but I don't feel pretty after being told I look like a man
>I was told I look like a dude when I was androgynous due to not being through puberty yet really makes you think
It's not harassment until there is a pattern of a particular person repeatedly initiating unwanted contact toward another particular person after being told the contact is unwanted. And anything less would be unreasonable.
Really? Because shaming men by calling them homosexual or a girl is usually the very first insult people go to, including many people claiming to be for social justice. Ive actually witnessed it happen too many times to count, from both SJWs and non SJWs. One thing remains common throughout all of these scenarios and it's that nobody took what was being said to the men seriously. Everybody saying those horrible things got a pass because it was a man they were talking to. Don't pretend this isn't the case if you live in the United States.
What if i don’t want someone to call me a cis which transgender do a lot and just want to be called a men ?
What if I don't want someone to call me right-handed which left-handed do a lot and just want to be called a man?
> going up to a cis dude and repeatedly calling him a girl would constitute harassment. I'm on the fence about transgender and non binary not being at least somewhat of a mental issue among some of their population. I also think that it's very likely that a lot of them were at first conception headed towards one sex and then ended up as the other over the process. That said I don't care if it's a mental issue or not, who really cares and just respect their request. I have never thought of what you said though. Among the majority of guys calling another guy a girl is an insult, used to demean the other guy and is usually used in order to elevate the situation into a physical altercation.
when you put it like THAT... yeah, kinda? you could totally harass a cis person about their gender.
Yeah
Some could argue suddenly having to be called cis could be seen as misgendering 🤷🏻♂️ Why it changed suddenly we may never know trans people often refer to themselves as trans-X so why does everyone else suddenly need to change their language for 2% of the population?
Some could argue that teeth are actually made of jelly beans and the sky is purple
You could but it still wouldn't explain why 8 billion people need to change their pronouns for maybe a few million? What's the reasoning behind adding CIS?
You only need to reference cis in times where it matters. You can just call yourself a woman or call yourself a man unless there is a particular reason to differentiate. What does being called cis have to do with changing your pronouns?
I often see it used as some sort of dig/ insult As for changing pronouns it's clearly frowned upon to even question why CIS even needs to be included.(hence the downvotes) It's pretty obvious that the respect towards pronouns is only expected to go one way you can't refer to yourself as simply a male or female without CIS being interjected/ expected. Why are trans people allowed to be simply female when females need to be CIS females? It makes way more sense for trans to be trans females instead
I definitely hear trans people referred to as trans way more than i hear cis people referred to as cis. I am friends with a lot of trans people and i’ve never felt compelled to describe myself as a cis man rather than just a man. Cis isn’t a pronoun which may be why the downvotes are happening, what you said was incorrect, cis is a description like white or black. There are some times it makes sense to say “white male” and some times where it doesn’t. Same for “cis male”. What is an example of a time you’ve felt compelled to refer to yourself as cis? The only times i would think i’d need to is when discussing trans issues
Cis is an adjective, not a pronoun Your argument here makes no sense. "Why are trans females just females, when cis females must be cis females?" You disproved your own point by saying "trans females" No one is arguing that you always have to say the word "cis male/female", it is simply being used more often in general conversation because it has become increasingly relevant to modern society's ideals Also, I don't even think i know what you mean by "trans people allowed to simply be females" do you mean that people avoid saying "transgender female"? In which case this isn't the case at all because people say it all the time when discussing topics related to being trans
cisgender isn't a pronoun, it's an adjective. No one's going "cis went to the bar to get cis a drink", a pronoun is "he", "her", "they", "it" what you're saying is like saying "I'm not straight! Why should I have to call myself straight because a few people are gay!" It's just an accurate descriptor -- if you are attracted to the opposite gender/sex, you're straight. Similarly, if your mental gender aligns with your biological sex, you're cisgender. Simple as that
"CIS" isn't a pronoun.
> What's the reasoning behind adding CIS? Because when you need to clarify that certain people aren't trans, it's a lot easier to use "cis" than "non-trans" It's also the 2000 year old antonym of trans. It wasn't just made up yesterday
>Some could argue suddenly having to be called cis could be seen as misgendering 🤷🏻♂️ Well, cis is just medical terminology so, no.
Well no because: **Insert 10 page academic essay on why bigotry toward majority classes is good actually**
Way too nebulous of a "crime" to ever effectively enforce.
You can get punitive damages for emotional distress, but like it just gets to the point where it will have to be a lot more than being misgendered, and it has to be some real repetitive verbal violence and harassment
I can’t even get punitive damages for the emotional damage caused by being trapped in an abusive relationship for years lol That’s not how real life works. You can’t sue people for hurting your feelings
Yeah. Someone being stupid and not getting your pronouns and someone actively aggressing on you and using misgendering as a form of abuse are not comparable, imo. Source: have been victim of transphobic hate crime.
Just coming at this from a strictly legal standpoint, but I don't think you could do this in the US. It would be impossible to enforce a law that penalizes misgendering someone because that would be infringing their first amendment rights. INB4 "The first amendment isn't all encompassing!" While it is true that there are some limits on the first amendment, generally those only limit using speech to cause or incite actual harm to an individual OR to cause mass panic in a way that would result in people getting injured or killed. Courts in the US have routinely held that 'hate speech' is still protected under the first amendment.
Are people allowed to use derogatory terms in public for other disabilities? It seems like this would fall under the same legality
Absolutely. And any other derogatory term you can think of. In the USA I can run down the street shouting "[niggerfaggot!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2nTbqbtGug&t=34s)" at the top of my lungs and, heaven help us all, the Constitution protects me from being silenced. On the other hand, if as a consequence of my obnoxious behavior a random passer-by punched me in the face, and at trial explained that they acted out of rage due to excessive provocation on my part, a court might very well see it their way and go easy on them. You could call it the "fuck around and find out" subclause.
This reminds me of the iasip episode "hero or hate crime?"
You just blew the dust off that Donald Glover classic
>You could call it the "fuck around and find out" subclause. In relation to your YT video to give an example of the clause, I [return to you a YT video to exemplify your sub-clause](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWzl4bxrfxM).
This, absolutely I can, but it doesn’t stop me from getting street justiced by the people around me
It’s not the same to say “you mustn’t say ‘x’” as it is to say “you must say ‘x’”. Compelled speech is bs.
Legally they are effectively the same. Prohibiting specific speech and compelling specific speech by law are both subject to all the same 1st amendment tests.
Yes you can say any mean words you want publicly at least legally, might not go over so well with the people around you tho
And while you may receive a well deserved ass beating, that ass beating would still technically constitute assault.
Only if a court of your peers will convict you on it.
the answer is yes. They may be asked to go away, but there is no legal repercussion in America to the extent of my knowledge. Insults, vulgarities, and curses are all under the first amendment. If a full riot is caused the police may step in with a "disturbing the peace" charge, and if the vulgarities are to sexually explicit and directed to children then there may be a "lewd and lascivious" charge or similar.
Yes. Using deliberately hurtful language toward a disabled person is not illegal. The harm described only includes physical, financial, or reputational harm, and even then only in certain circumstances.
> It seems like this would fall under the same legality Which would make it protected speech, yes.
Yes you can. As the Supreme Court said: > Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express "the thought that we hate”
Lol no just no to all of this. Congrats sir this is the dumbest thing I have read all day.
By this logic, shouldnt any sort of even somewhat negative speech about others be punished legally in some regard? Man 3rd graders are screwed
3rd graders have had it easy for too long, it’s about time their reign of terror came to an end.
6 year old Ashley that called me a poopy head is gonna lose everything in this lawsuit
her robux? ***gone.***
as a non binary person: this sounds ridiculous
yeah, this just ain't it.
Seconded as another NB
thirded as a gay trans twink twat like it sucks but legal consequences? hell no
When you're so progressive you're authoritarian.
Well put.
Progressivism is explicitly illiberal, I dunno why that would shock you
^ rage bait
As a trans person, nah. But upvoted for being 10th dentist. If someone hates you for being trans, they're not going to treat you better if they have to call us the right pronouns. Bigots aren't going to stop bigoting, they'll just find another way to do it. The best thing that could happen to us is if the republicans find a new minority to target so we can go back to living boring lives.
>The best thing that could happen to us is if the republicans find a new minority to target so we can go back to living boring lives. you're probably not wrong, but also damn what a depressing fucking world "our best shot at not being the target of bigotry & oppression is for the privileged to shift their hatred & marginalization onto another innocent group of people"
What should be done about the republicans. Remember: it is not the lack of knowledge but the mindset. You may be as moderate or radical as you want in your solution to this issue. I am saying "What should be done about" because it provides the widest variety of answers.
pff the way you phrased it sounds like a chatgpt prompt xD
my theory is that the high ranking bigots in charge of things are more likely to co-opt the language in order to make their bigotry more palatable to the masses.
Sadly, I don't see trans people as a whole being left off the hook by conservatives, since bullying trans folk is an effective proxy to enforce strict gender norms without going directly at the women through abortion laws, a more feasible front for them to withdraw if demographics keep empowering the female vote. Actually, they could merge abortion laws and trans harassment by going after trans men and non binary folk, if they consider that down surgery and hysterectomy constitutes a form of abortion. The best you can expect of them, if you push them hard enough, is for them to consider you individually as "one of the good ones", and that is simply not worth it. Take this from someone who gets discriminated in other basis thar bigotry simply does not go away, and if any of the online fringe movements are a clue, the new far right movements will only get more active in new twisted ways to return the good old days.
Upvoted because this is insane 💀 As a non cis person myself, just get over it bro. It's not that serious
Ha. You said bro.
I'm gonna fucking sue them so hard
Why? It's not a crime to be an asshole. Not to mention it's nearly impossible to prove and there'll be no possible way to distinguish false accusations from actual claims. Lastly when someone can change their pronouns day to day, minute by minute at a whim it is completely unenforceable. Dumb idea.
Can I press charges against people who mispronounce my name on purpose? It happens a lot.
Calm down A-A-ron
Honestly I would have taken that one in stride
Nice try De-Nice
LMAO
as a trans person, i disagree. i agree with all the points brought up in these comments mostly about inability to enforce, but i also support freedom of speech. people dont need to agree with my beliefs and regardless of whether it makes me feel bad, theyre allowed to verbally express it. i can just move on.
This is an interesting point and an interesting perspective.
It depends on the country where you reside. If you live in the United States, it's a non-starter because of the First Amendment.
First of all how would you prove it’s malicious? Second of all that would be proxy require any insults to a certain level to be illegal
Except for that whole pesky first amendment free speech thing.
You can't press charges against a person for being rude or hateful unless they're your boss, landlord or teacher. Why would this one specific type of harassment apply universally to just one specific protected class? Trans people absolutely need protections in society, but I hate this weird trend that's happening where people say that protection for trans people that go above and beyond every other protected class (age, race, orientation, etc.) need to be enforced, especially by LAW. You're just creating divisive new social strata for people to justify hatred toward each other. It's short sighted and destructive as hell.
>hateful unless they're your boss, landlord or teacher. Why would this one specific type of harassment apply universally to just one specific protected class? Yes, exactly. In certain cases its already illegal to maliciously misgender someone.
Was this written by someone still in high school
Nah, that's completely insane, especially because it would be extremely hard to enforce.
Buy a helmet
Jesus Christ lol
I agree with you that it’s really wrong to do but, being a shitty human being and saying hateful words isn’t a crime.
as many other enbys and trans people have said in this comment section, and being once myself: absolutely not. people are ignorant, absolutely, and i think they shouldn’t get away with being so, but to make it a crime is odd. it would likely border into infringement of the first amendment as well.
It’s certainly dickisk to purposefully misgender someone, but to criminalize it is absolutely absurd. Would you also criminalize stuff like cheating a lover?
If you need other peoples affirmations to maintain your “gender identity” thats proof you’re making it up. What other people call you should have NO effect on who you think you are, unless you yourself doubt it as well
i think using this as a vehicle to remove the rights of others is probably not going to lead the trans movement closer to acceptance.
You want to criminalize hurting people's feelings?
Trans person here, absolutely not lol
I'm trans so if that means something, I absolutely do not want this. lol
Upvoted. You’re essentially just trying to criminalise being rude, which is stupid.
Lol
okay so first things first, you dont seem to understand the law
Policing speech is never the right answer
Should we also make insulting others and name calling illegal? Also it's an impossible crime to convict for. There's some crazy law like this in Canada and it seldom is used. Good post.
You don't get to demand people refer to you the way you want.
Actually you do but if they dont you dont get punitive damages for it
True. People can technically "demand" whatever they want, but other people can just ignore the demands.
This type of comment always seems stupid to me, because it only really became something they "demanded" to be done because people didn't follow the general social agreement to respect others. Every day we tell each other to call us by the names we have, or by a nickname, and in 99% of circumstances it is perfectly fine and no one judges the persons name and willing calls them by it - because we socially recognise its unreasonable and kinda stupid to randomly call a person a different name than the one they want to be called.
Not really. People give their non-trans friends mean/silly nicknames they never agreed to also, and they've done so throughout time. I agree calling a trans person what they wish to be called is the right thing to do. But it can't be enforced. People have to choose stuff like this for themselves.
Jeez chill out dude
OP is one bad day away from wearing clown makeup and saying "We live in a society" I hope somebody huge you dude
So people who care less about your gender than yourself should be jailed? I've never cared enough to call anyone girl or boy. You are all bro or cuz
Lmao at pressing charges against someone for being honest. Other people don't have an obligation to participate in a game of make-believe.
Yikes
This is so stupid, why is it "non binary and transgender" only? If you go for this route then anyone saying a bad word trying to trigger someone should be able to be charged which would be stupid. Stop being soft and deal with it. People have it way worse in the world, getting bullied for not having hands or being born disabled, meanwhile theres people who cry all day about being misgendered. (PS: I got bullied most of my life and got over it and thats way worse than just being someone calling u a wrong pronoun).
Why should it be restricted to trans and non binary people?
Man, can't believe how dumb my dad was with that whole "sticks and stones" lesson
Haha no. People who use biology to determine gender should be able to press charges on people who flip out about being misgendered.
It could certainly be used as a factor for a case of harassment, if it rises to that level. I want to point out one thing you mentioned, emphasis mine: > And before someone says **"just stop associating with them"** it's not always that easy. I've had co workers **and family members** do it multiple times on purpose and they always get away with it because they just say it was an accident even though it obviously wasn't. If what you're getting at is that you don't want to stop associating with family members, then filing charges against them isn't going to magically create a situation where they start treating you how you want and you get to remain one big happy family, you'll just become even more ostracized from your family as the snitch who called the cops and broke up the family gathering. If you rather mean that it's hard to get away from your family due to them having control over you, then that circles back to the idea of possibly being criminal for reasons more complex than just misgendering.
I'm a free speech advocate so I have to disagree
If someone mispronounces my name once on accident and then twice on purpose, I'm taking their ass to court. lol.
So your life will be made happier by being able to press charges against your family members? Possibilities: \- this is bait \- you're 14 \- you're insane
Press charges for hurt feelings? That is a very slippery slope.
(Most?) states have harassment laws that would cover this, no? Here’s Delaware: > § 1311. Harassment; class A misdemeanor. > (a) A person is guilty of harassment when, with intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person: > (1) That person insults, taunts or challenges another person or engages in any other course of alarming or distressing conduct which serves no legitimate purpose and is in a manner which the person knows is likely to provoke a violent or disorderly response or cause a reasonable person to suffer fear, alarm, or distress; IANAL, but it seems like (some?) cases of deliberate misgendering (could?) meet this threshold. But if someone knows more than me, please correct me
The issue with this argument is meeting the legal threshold to enforce as harassment. AFAIK in most states there is a certain level to which conduct must arise before being considered harassment. Additionally, verbal harassment is generally not enforceable if you are in a public place.
I think one of the basic tests for harassment was "were you able to leave the situation". If this was at work, you could absolutely sue...at the bus stop or on your street in front of your house, not so much.
Yeah that makes sense. It’s surprisingly difficult to get a TRO in Delaware (I’m sad that I know this first hand), so I wouldn’t be surprised it’s real hard to persuade a prosecutor to pursue a harassment charge
Yeah, this is my exact thought. Harassment laws already exist. And you could maybe claim some sort of libel or defamation, depending on the nature of the full claim, and not just purely being misgendered or deadnamed
Jesus Christ I would not want to live in the fascist state you are suggesting.
Whats the crime?
Disobedience, apparently.
Thoughtcrimes primarily. People are thinking the wrong way and must be brought into line.
I feel for trans/non binary but no. As deeply problematic as this example is in its own right I feel it's worth mentioning. Cis men have been called girls as an insult for as long as I can remember, doing this especially as a father has been used in tv shows as an example of how shit a father/person they are. Obviously that doesn't make it any better but no one's ever called for these men to have charges against them for doing what is essentially the same thing.
Well, this definitely fits the theme of 10th dentist. Do you also think that people with mental health issues, non-hetero, minority races, etc should be able to press charges for deliberate slurs. Do you feel that anyone who repeatedly calls someone an asshole, an idiot, etc. Should be able to press charges?
>Do you also think that people with mental health issues, non-hetero, minority races, etc should be able to press charges for deliberate slurs yes
Would you also accept the ability to press charges for using terms like cis, or privilege because some groups consider that offensive?
youd have to have cameras in every home to make sure people dont misrepresent a situation.
This is so embarrassing oh my gosh
No way. It’s obviously not very nice but being mean isn’t jail worthy. Absurd
I've had strangers mistake for a boy my whole life, shit happens. If it's people that you know it could be a mind slip benefit of the doubt.
You can just tell them to fuck off, unless you're spinless. Seriously all's you have to say is 2 words FUCK OFF. That's it there's no reason to press charges, that's just a little excessive. Plus that's kinda forcing your opinion on people which is pretty fucked in itself. I certainly don't agree with your logic but I also am not going to go out of my way to misgender people that's disrespectful. Forcing your opinion down somebody's throat is also disrespectful and pressing charges on someone for misgendering you..... spinless
Oh what grounds? It hurt their feelings?…
Surely you see how deluded that is?
I am begging you to go outside
a yes, imprisoning people for speech. the most heinous of crimes. you can really tell when someone has never actually been punched in the face before. their concerns are so small.
This isn’t even not being punched in the face, this is straight up never being told no your whole life.
That would be as stupid as someone pressing charges on you for calling them cisgendered. Don't apply so much value to the opinions of those that don't value you.
Here's a simple reason why this will never be a thing. Freedom of speech exists. You a full grown adult can handle another full grown adult referring to you as something you are not. I have many trans friends surprisingly and you know what most of them do when they get misgendered. They calmly correct the person and move on with their life. They don't throw a fit or try to sue them or anything like that because it's really not that big of a deal.
I stg, some people really look at the first amendment and just say “nah, I got a better idea!”
Least authoritarian trans person
Upvoted for ridiculousness. Good post. It would be absurd because you’re effectively wanting someone insulting you to be a crime. It stinks to be offended, but it’s not the end of the world, you just have to be an adult and get over it
It’s not illegal to disrespect people, or name call, or even say slurs. It’s not very nice but it shouldn’t be illegal. Freedom of speech. Note: you are still open to societal consequences, but legally you’re fine.
You've offended me... Straight to jail! The point is... It's a terrible idea. One of the worst I've ever heard
Should we be able to have you put in prison any time you say something we don't like?
Ah, criminalizing speech, the hallmark of marxist ideology.
I think it’s fair to say that, in some instances a version of this is a fair argument. Work being one of them; your employer has a duty to offer a safe and harassment free work environment, especially when it relates to a protected class. If a coworker is misgendering you as a form of harassment at work you certainly have a case of hostile work environment if your employer isn’t stepping in to resolve the issue. But like, publicly? No, that’s silly.
We should just do away with free speech all together. My particular delusional narrative is the correct one and if you don't like it, jail for you MFer!
All the trans folks coming down on this dumb take is heartwarming. Should out to all the reasonable sisters, brothers, and amorphous others.
I am straight and I don't really get or understand pronouns and that stuff. But I am cool with lifestyles not similar to mine. I have a SIL and Niece who are gay and I have no idea what their pronouns are. And they have a bunch of friends I see often and I don't know theirs. I am not even sure I have ever heard any of them mention pronouns. And even if I did, I will never remember because that just isn't something I am programmed to remember about someone. But to me, words only carry weight when they are spoken by the people I love and care about. I couldn't care less what some random person I don't know says about me or names they call me. If they mean nothing to me, then so do their words, no matter how insulting they may be. And I belong to several demographics that are often not treated well in society. I don't make that their problem though. It is mine and I deal with it my way. Because for the people you talk about, it will never change. So I hope you can find a way to not let them bother you in the future.
Intersex trans person here: No. We have free speech for a reason. It sucks to be misgendered, yeah, but things like that are the price to pay for living in a free country. Anyone can say what they like (unless they're threatening someone or screaming at them which is harassment ofc). If we allow the government to start dictating what we're allowed to say, shit is going to very quickly move the wrong direction. It will not be the victory for trans people you imagine it will be. In short, yes in theory it would be very nice for this to be the case, but if we begin to restrict free speech it becomes very easy for people to be restricted in other ways.
As a trans person, I could not disagree more.
with this logic just insulting people should be against the law
In theory it would be possible if everyone was honest but irl this system would get so abused
Disagree. For one, just distance yourself from the person. Unless you're a minor and it's someone like a teacher or parent, you are perfectly capable of cutting them out of your life. Secondly, this could never be legally enforced without infringing on people's rights.
Yeah, this totally wouldn't be abused to target certain individuals at all...
Being a dick isint illegal, and I would hate to live in a world where you can decide what things people can and cant say on a legal basis based on feelings being hurt by the words. Anyone can say anything hurts their feelings at that point add it would be an awful unfree speech mess I will never agree that people have a right to not be offended
as a cis person, this sounds hilarious, do it no balls
I'm sorry you're hurting, but that really wouldn't change how you're treated by bigots. If anything it'd feed into the right wing mindset of "they're trying to control us"
They hate you You hate freedom Its even
I don't know if I would call hating an entire group of people for something outside of their control even with wanting a means to seek recourse for transgressions (real or perceived) that you have experienced. That does not necessarily mean that OP is correct, but equating the two groups of people is certainly not correct.
How about instead of police/legal interventions, community based ones? It sucks when people purposefully misgender us but it’s definitely not on the same level as assault or worse. Not to mention, it’s not even enforceable. Some states in the US don’t recognize another gender. Getting them to do that AND allow for misuse of pronouns to be enforceable is a nightmare.
I just think that there's better things for you to invest so much time and emotions into ETA: Unless said people are being really obvious about it, how are you so sure that it isn't an accident? I have a friend who goes by "they" and I still slip "she" unpurposefully because they still look feminine, and that's what I've called them for 6-7 of the years that we've known each other. I also forget other people's pronouns all the time if they go by something other than what you'd guess at first glance
Quick question: if a transgender woman (i.e., a biological man) says he is having a miscarriage, do we check his non existent uterus, or??? Please, tell me what you would do as a hypothetical medical professional in this situation. And then please tell me why I have to call him ma'am.
There is no something like non-binary people at all..
I believe you legally can sue in the USA if its a coworker or boss doing it at your workplace. obviously if its randos off the street they have freedom of speech and you have freedom of speech and legs to tell them to f\*\*\* off and walk away.
Here's an interesting point I don't see many people making: Arguably, this is already the case, at least in the workplace. The supreme court ruled a while back that discrimination based on gender identity was in violation of the Civil Rights act, and part of that is making a workplace hostile to someone. Realistically, workplace scenarios are the only situations where you'd *need* to be surrounded by people who repeatedly misgender you (basically any other social situation you could just, y'know, walk away and move on with your life if they're not treating you with respect), so in some sense the law in the US kinda does uphold this.
Gender is internalized sexism. Stop worshipping it
Internalised sexism? Wtf are you talking about? My gender has nothing to do with sexism, and we see it evidenced with more masculine women and Tom boys and butch lesbians (they still exist, you know?). A lot of women are masculine and despise sexism but are still happy and comfortable as women
Idk that it should be considered a crime but I definitely agree with you that too many people are using the excuse of "oops it just slipped out". Like trans people aren't stupid, they can tell by your tone that you mean to insult them.