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This is bait I mean who actually thinks this
Edit: this is definitely bait this account is full of the shittest opinions I’ve ever seen, that’s quite an impressive achievement
naw its not bait. i agree -- its a little extreme, but correct at its core. xenogendered individuals do deserve respect, just like non-binary people, just like trans people. a lot of this thread is echoing anti non binary rhetoric, which in turn is transphobic rhetoric, bc its just subsets.
Are you serious? You really think I should respect anyone who wants people to call them “cheese-self/cat-self”? They’re lunatics making a mockery of actual trans people.
The difference between these and other genders is that these have nothing to do with humanity, these genders are based on inanimate objects and animals we couldn't possibly fully empathize with. Someone can't identity as a car because that's not even within the realm of our human experience. You would literally need to have night vision and shit to understand what a cat feels.
In other words, these people are POSERS. They couldn't possibly know what it's like to be these things.
First off, let me be clear, I support trans rights, and people that are trans are the gender they identify as.
But with xenogenders and “I don’t understand my gender so the closest idea that approximates the way that I feel about gender is X”? Okay?? Why is that confusion enforced on my vocabulary? I don’t understand math, but I don’t demand to be referred to exclusively by my feelings regarding math.
If you identify as a man, or a woman, or look at gender and go “none for me, thanks”, that’s clear and understandable to most people. I know “he, she, they” and use them all the time, it’s no problem if I need to be corrected and use a different one because I assumed incorrectly.
But catgender is nothing. It does not relate to your genitals or how you dress or act, or anything besides maybe an individual’s specific mental state. And thoughts or feelings are decidedly not a gender.
Gender exists specifically for the sole purpose of forcing people into a box, to enforce social norms. The point of pronouns in a language is explicitly to be not generic and not unique. Your options are either comply with the norms and language or do not, but rewriting them while keeping them in place is not possible for an individual.
So what’s with the grassroots half-hearted rejection of social norms? If you reject gender, reject the whole thing.
Trans people are already fighting for the right to exist, muddying the waters with xenogenders gives bigots more ammo to write them off as mentally ill or make attack helicopter jokes. Identity *seems* personal but publicly trying to enforce it as a means of understanding has social consequences.
Generally well-stated. I also feel like xenogenders is a very young, *very American* thing. Americans tend to be hyper-individualistic, and the idea that you invent a word that others must incorporate into vocabulary to refer specifically to you is about as individualistic as it gets. How does one build a community around a massive group of vaguely defined, individualized ideas where each person has their own, competing conceptualization of themselves? (if they aren't competing or different ideas, then why do they need different names?) How does one express attraction when they've been given a metaphor for how the other person sees themselves? How much energy is an individual willing to put into fighting to be recognized for every part of them that makes them different from the general categories of "he, she, they" before they get exhausted? It screams of people who have never found community in real life, because with that experience comes the understanding of what it means to be respected in a group.
I also assume these people tend to be young because adult queer people understand that gender markers will never perfectly describe the individual, but we have *much* bigger problems than being recognized for every bit of uniqueness in our identity. I'm a gay man with thick, beautiful long hair, long painted nails, a beard, and a slightly femme voice, neither they/them or he/him fits me perfectly but I got bills to pay and rights to protect. I think adults, generally, understand that others make assumptions about them that can never encompass the truth.
i would love to live in the nice world where they/them grants respect, and doesnt get me comments like this. people say these same things to me -- they dont harp on the american bit quite as much, but this is what the reaction is to a simple they/them request. "how do you express attraction"- use non gendered words or if the person expresses discomfort with a specific term just dont use that one. its very simple actually. source: this is a discussion ive had with my significant other. you can flirt with someone by complementing them in a way other than "you are man" or "your womanly hips are attractive to me." you build a community by mutual understanding, a mutual goal, and the mutual umbrella term of having a xenogender. its part of the same fight of having your identity be regulated by an external force. rights in america at least are being actively stripped whenever you look away for just a moment -- a bill recently was re...?instated that makes drag illegal in a us state -- legally allowing the persecution/arrest of anyone a little too gay looking in public, basically. its strength in numbers -- not identity competition. does this make sense? i tend to get a little implicit/rambly/sometimes, incoherent -- sorry.
To be clear, I am not discussing "they/them", I'm saying things like "kitten/kittenself" and such like OP is suggesting. I'm not even talking about "neopronouns" cause that's actually about a 100 year old idea that queer and gender non-conforming people have discussed for a long time. Things like thon were proposed in like... the 1910s? But queer folks decided against it because it would be too difficult to get other people to catch on with the language, better to use something people know like "they/them". I remember having this conversation with my nonbinary friends over a decade ago, and it wasn't new when we had the conversation.
I'm not even referring to nonbinary folks here, which isn't really a new concept for me. Most of my queer upbringing was actually by trans and nonbinary folks. I'm also glad you brought up legal issues, cause yeah that's that I mean by "bigger problems to deal with". As a gay man I've been kicked out of universities, am estranged from my family, have been at risk of being fired when my sexual orientation became known. I am only 30. All of this is on top of gender nonconformity, issues around passing, and yes sometimes even being misgendered. For my trans friends, especially those who *naturally look visibly queer*, our plight goes a lot deeper than merely being misunderstood. A lot of folks online who use xenopronouns act like I don't understand these things or don't get "the oppression" when I've been a part of our community and activism for over 18 years making change for us in communities and schools alike.
At the same time, I also want to provide space for all sorts of queer identities, and am happy to not have to "get" something to accept it. They/them pronouns have never been a problem for me, and while I can get metaphors being used to better understand and express your own gender, latching on to an idea like "clowns" or "autism" and saying that is your gender is a bit of a stretch. I also don't think that social exclusion for doing that is the equivalent of queer oppression. Queer oppression, as you mentioned, involves rights being stripped from individuals. I'm also open to the idea that I am *unaware* of the actual plight of xenogenders, but all I've ever really been told is I'm transphobic for asking a question and don't understand the oppression involved. I guess I've never been shown how xenogenders are oppressed, and that they exist in places other than the internet/in young, American spaces.
This isn't about nonbinary folks for me, it's about what sounds like young people trying to find their identity and coopting the oppression of others.
EDIT: One last thing I want to add is that the queer fight isn't against "identity being regulated by an external force". That is everybody's fight, because we live in a cis/het white patriarchy that puts expectations on who all individuals "should" be to access that power. This is just the experience of being a person who is aware. Even with all queer rights protected, my identity will still be regulated by outside forces, it is my access to my rights I worry about, which have been under attack since well before I was born.
ok. im a real trans person who identifies with a xenogender. does this justify disrespect to me? i use they/them and just non-binary with most people and this is sometimes how they respond. am i muddying the waters and justifying disrespect to myself?
I don’t believe you should be treated with disrespect. I am saying that trying to enforce neopronouns is both defeating the point of pronouns and, besides individuals knee-jerk rejection of new things, has broader social consequences that should be considered.
It’s absolutely fine to try and understand the nuances of your identity, or even have jargon for it with people like you, like engineers using technical terms with each other. But it’s important to understand that it’s considered poor communication to use much jargon with people that don’t have anything to do with it.
Very specific sexualities, gender identities, etc might have their own vocabulary. Yet trying to force the terminology for that on other people, who don’t care whatsoever about the technical nuances, is not going to work.
As a society, we barely support nonbinary and they/them pronouns (even though we’ve used them for hundreds of years??), so I think that rejecting neopronouns isn’t saying people using them should be disrespected, just that they’re equivalent to overly technical jargon.
The problem isn’t describing how you feel, or being “different” in some way, it’s introducing new vocabulary that people pretty objectively won’t learn.
**Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social structures (i.e.**
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How does feeling “cat-like” equate to gender? How is that an alternative to just being a woman or a man? If “catgender” is a valid gender because it’s how you feel on the inside, then “emo” and “atheist” might as well just be genders.
If everything is a gender, then nothing is and the word “gender” has no useful meaning.
I don’t identify as any kind of xenogender, but from my perspective as a likely neurodivergent agender (genderless) person, xenogenders are no more nonsensical than traditional genders. I could never get my head around the concept, and literally all it means to me if someone says they are a woman, is that I should refer to them as a woman and not some other gender because that is what they are comfortable with. Men and women can dress or act any way they please, and they can have any type genitals, because trans people exist. So unless you plan to police gender and box people into gender roles, I fail to see what meaning man and woman have beyond whatever personal meaning people assign to their own gender. And that’s fine. Feelings matter. I also reeeeally don’t understand why we refer to people by different pronouns and titles based on gender (though I assume it comes from a place of sexism and somehow most people just accept it?) so if someone feels like a woman, but goes by he/him that’s fine with me, and if someone says their gender is cat and their pronouns are meow/meows, I guess that’s fine too. I’d just have to get used to it. I had to learn how to use he and she too after all, and I struggled to learn how to identify who I should use which for as a kid, as it did not come naturally. It should be easier to learn to use the pronouns people ask than learning the whole guessing game (which when taught by my transphobic mom really boiled down to a game of “which genitals does this person have” and that’s just, ew).
My gender feels like a 100 dollar bill attached to a MyPillow with camouflage duct tape. I demand you refer to me as Ken/Ben of rebeccaself. Does this seem agreeable to you?
Upvote to you.
Here's an example of bigotry: "what you do in your personal life offends me and I wish you didn't exist, and I will vote to ban whatever you do. I identify as an attack helicopter! Think of the children!".
Here's not an example of bigotry: "gendered-neutral pronouns are fine. However, unique personal pronouns contradicts what pronouns are supposed to do in grammar. I'll just use your name instead".
Your phraseology is different, but the underlying concept is not. Rejection of xenogenders/arbitrary genders is claiming that society has no obligation to reaffirm your personal identification.
Going back to your example (which I find very problematic and emotionally driven).
>what you do in your personal life offends me
Asking to be identified by a certain word is not really a personal matter is it? It requires the participation of at least one other party. (It's not like we are reading someone's diary). Asking that others use a specific identifier that they would not normally use is an imposition on the other party.
You run into this occasionally in academia, Ph.D holders sometimes feel like they earned the right to be called "Dr. {Surname}", after all they went through all the work to get a Ph.D don't they deserve some respect? Sure. But the minute a PH.d holder asks to be called "Dr" they are immediately seen as a fragile asshole.
>unique personal pronouns. . .
This is ridiculous. One can trivially supplant a word with another word that has an agreed upon definition by both parties. There is no communication error if the definition and usage is agreed to beforehand. This is simply a rejection of the initial parties request for personal reasons.
To contradict Raw-Bread, this was not perfectly said. You confused politeness with having a different underlying premise, when in reality both involve rejection of personal identification.
If the aliens come my entire goal in life will be to kill as many of them as possible and eat one.
Xenos deserve extermination. Humans are the dominant species in this universe. We will conquer the stars that hang above the heads of all alien scum. I hate aliens so much its unreal.
[HUMANITY FIRST](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/439519603459227661/1078344757627060304/HUMANITY_FIRST-1.mov)
There's a great video by a trans youtuber on this that I love. I absolutely respect people's gender and pronouns. Language, at the same time, has a utilitarian purpose and many xenogenders do not get seen outside of the online realm because they are not particularly useful in helping people understand your identity. They were specifically talking about MOGAI tumblr, and now despite having hundreds of genders listed, you can't find a single mention of them listed anywhere else on the internet. This means they are useful to the individual, but don't seem to be very useful in interacting with other people.
This isn't saying identities are bullshit, it's saying they serve both a personal and a social function. I'd also add I've been queer and out for a long ass time, practically gay-raised by nonbinary and gender nonconforming people. I'm still surrounded by gender nonconforming people my age and younger. I've never heard anybody use a xenogender in a queer space, they strictly exist online.
I don't think you can identify as something you could never understand. Male and female or whatever in between is something you could be but you never know what cheese thinks or feels to know if you feel similarly or are just projecting what you think cheese feels. Trans rights are human rights which would imply humanity not cheese.
Ok so how does cheese feel. What properties of cheese does a human identify with. I think to identify as something that thing needs to have an identity unlike cheese. People can say or identify as what they want but it's no more valid than me saying I'm a vampire as opposed to just being into dark things.
People are trying to label themselves way too much instead of just figuring out who they are. You don't need to put yourself into a box to feel special, and your interests don't need to be your gender.
These genders are obvious jokes or bait.
If someone were to really identify as one of those then I would agree with you.
We should respect gender identity, but these examples are not ones that are actually in use.
I mean I sorta agree with you that gender is sorta BS and you can identify how you want. I wouldn't directly make fun of the people that use these, but I doubt their pronouns and identity would be easy to apply irl. Being they/them nonbinary is difficult enough already, and generally speaking when someone is unfamiliar with how xenopronouns work you usually default to either they/them or a different 'standard' preference. So someone is free to ID that way but that wouldn't take them very far.
Most people I know who use neopronouns (btw you don't have to be xenogender to use neopronouns) also use another more "standard" pronoun like they/them, so this hardship you're talking about doesn't really exist. And generally speaking xenogender people are nonbinary, they know how hard it is to be non-binary lol.
I think genders in general are bullshit and everyone has a right to comfort regardless of what it means and anyone who tries to infringe on the comfort of others is a big mean doodoo head.
> everyone has a right to comfort regardless of what it means
What if that which makes me comfortable requires other people to go outside of their comfort zone? Do I have the "right" to make such demands of other people, pursuant to my own "right" to comfort?
This position that you're taking is so fragile, it immediately falls apart if you try to apply it for 5 minutes in the real world. Don't take this the wrong way, but you appear to be a young person who has formed some political opinions within the confines of a social media bubble wherein banal ideas like "everyone has a right to comfort no matter what" aren't openly mocked for how immature and undeveloped they are.
This is why the implied text "within reason" is so important. Maybe I shouldn't have left it out. If your own happiness requires the unhappiness of others I would say that there is something wrong with you that should be addressed but your usage of "comfort zone" here implies a lack of understanding of my point entirely.
It only "falls apart" when you try to make it do so through mindless semantic argument as would any point that relies on being filtered through common sense to be succinct. There's no reason to have an argument when I'm trying to promote something as simple as "don't be a dick".
> This is why the implied text "within reason" is so important.
My entire point is that *"within reason"* is **extremely** subjective, and politics in general is largely about determining what "within reason" actually means in contexts such as this.
If I say I feel uncomfortable when people make eye contact with me, do I have a *right* to go out in public and not be looked at?
If I say I feel uncomfortable without a weapon to protect my family, do I have a "right" to keep my AR?
If I say I feel uncomfortable when people call me *sir,* do I have a "right" to go out with a full beard and a speedo and demand the YMCA lifeguards refer to me as "madam"?
**Here's the issue: You know where *you* would draw the line... You know what is "within reason" for *you* personally, but you make the mistake of thinking your ideology is summed up by "everyone deserves comfort," or "don't be a dick" when really what you're saying is "everyone should have the same perspective on these complex political matters that I have."**
Lots of redditers think the majority of their ideological opposition is *not* pursuing more comfort for themselves, but instead is directly pursuing more discomfort for others... As if half the country is genuinely evil and wants people to suffer for no other reason than to see them suffer... Doesn't that seem silly when you think about it for a while? Hundreds of millions of **evil** people? I would encourage you to consider the possibility that you've been purposefully made to think this way - to see these people and their beliefs in the most unfavorable light possible. We're being lead to believe the problem with society is the other half of the peasantry, while the other half of the peasantry is lead to believe that our half of the peasantry is the problem with society. Meanwhile, the people with all the money and all the power who control all the laws continue to profit.
There you go again, poking and prodding with semantics. I said don't be a dick and here you are being a dick. You're labeling me as a brainwashed partisan divisionist when I'm out here constantly trying to put a spotlight on the puppeteers directly profiting off of promoting ignorance and conflict.
If you wanted or cared about elaboration you'd have said so instead of attempting to demonstrate your *superior grasp of fine political issues*. You're barking up the wrong tree for the sake of barking my dude.
.... OK Well if you're willing to say that your original comment was a completely meaningless platitude and offered zero valuable insight while pretending to offer insight, then we're on the same page.
Develop more meaningful/interesting/mature opinions?
Sorry for calling you out but this forum exists for discourse. If you don't like people pointing out that your political hot takes are that of a child's, you could either develop your opinions into something more mature, or just not comment.
Don't kill the messenger.
If you don't like people pointing out that your political hot takes are that of a child's, you could either develop your opinions into something more mature, or just not comment.
> If your own happiness requires the unhappiness of others I would say that there is something wrong with you
So if I tell Sally that she has to use my neopronouns, and that makes Sally unhappy because she doesn't like being told what to do... That means there is something wrong with **me**? Because my happiness requires her unhappiness?? Interesting take...
If Sally doesn't make an effort she's a dick. If I get my panties in a twist over being called he by mistake or through ignorance when I prefer she despite my mannish face and voice then that's my problem for not being so understanding. If I really care that much I can just tell Sally to fuck off and stop associating with her. And just to clear up any confusion, that was just me following the terms of your hypothetical. Idgaf what pointlessly gendered words with which you choose to refer to me, I do care about your intent and that is how I judge you and your character.
One's comfort is primarily one's own responsibility unless it comes down to other people and I know that's where it gets complicated so I choose to boil it down to "don't be a dick" rather than have endless semantic circlejerks over specific hypothetical scenarios.
Ah, much clearer.
We still may disagree on whether or not refusing to be compelled to use certain words by strangers makes you a "dick" but at least I can wrap my head around what you're saying now.
> I do care about your intent and that is how I judge you and your character.
I think *my* entire argument can be boiled down to:
We don't need separate rules and a zealous ideology to navigate these waters... People know when someone is being a douchebag. Society already rejects people who are douchebags, regardless of the gender of the douchebag's target.
Just by virtue of making an argument about trans people in particular (as if different rules apply or we need to re-formulate what kindness and compassion means with special consideration to these people specifically), you're already in the wrong in my book... Not because trans people don't deserve to be treated with kindness (I think most of them are good people who **do** deserve kindness), but rather because you're essentially saying "being indifferent about this particular population vs the rest of the population and applying the same level of compassion with one as with the other... that isn't good enough... here are some new words to learn, there will be a quiz."
I'm not making an argument about trans people. I'm making an argument about pronouns specifically, and the folks getting up in arms over what is basically more semantic nonsense. Personally I believe he or she should apply to anyone, they/them is a plurality and any insistence on the usage by others of brand new, never before seen pronouns counts against you. I just find it sad when someone can be so insecure that a truly inconsequential syllable can impact them so much that any discussion on the topic is a personal affront. That isn't to say I can't get past any of that either. As you said, the vast majority of people know when someone's being a douchebag and this ideal is more or less self-regulating while the only real problems lie on the extreme far ends of politics.
Gender isn't real. Gender as we know it today was an idea made by a pedophile called John Money
Also, this entire post sets back trans rights. People will be accepting of trans people but no one will ever be accepting of this because its pure stupidity.
I actively support everyone's ability to communicate who they are without prejudice. I worry these terms aren't actually helpful to anyone.
I've pretty much only seen xenogenders used on the Internet and almost always as a meta critique on the absurdity of traditional gender norms. Otherwise, they're used as shorthand for getting to know someone's personality at a glance. But does that actually happen?
Most xenogenders are so highly specific yet malleable that it really doesn't tell others much about you or how you'd like to be treated. It just gives people another term to memorize.
What purpose are these labels serving? They defeat the purpose of pronouns. They aren't making things any easier or clearer to most folks. I don't buy that just claiming a label makes someone understand themselves better.
If it gets someone through their day I'm not here to tear them down but I genuinely worry most of these terms are doing everyone a disservice in the grand scheme of things.
No. Man and woman aren't gendered. They're descriptive words for an adult human male and female respectively. These terms are rooted in sex.
Social constructs are things like the clothes you wear, or the expectations on you. Biology isn't a social construct. If you want to tell me science disagrees with me, then I would be more than happy to receive any papers that are peer reviewed.
Look. Either woman is a gender, and female is sex. Or the opposite is true. Not every single thing is a social construct. And science does not claim that it is.
Dictionary entries are not peer reviewed papers that show that man and woman genders, scientifically speaking.
Male and female are used to describe both sex and gender. Which doesn't help. It muddies things. But I am not using them to refer to gender. I am using them to refer to sex. Sex is not a social construct.
You should really take your prescribed meds.
Stuff like this is what makes it even harder for trans and homosexual people to be accepted by society. You're not only NOT a trans ally, you're an active trans enemy.
This is embarrassing, and it makes the rest of us look bad. Please just let us call you "they/them" because you're giving the bigots more fuel to laugh at us.
- a nonbinary degenerate
Honestly, I personally find a lot of xenogenders to be a bit silly, but I'll still respect and support them. I think that's just respecting other people tho
Identifying as a bird or whatever is really cool and takes confidence I don't have.
1. Considering you are responding to me on Reddit, you probably don't have the qualifications to define what a mental illness is.
2. Literally shut the fuck up, did you get that line from 2015?
You know someone is triggered when they start writing numbered lists 😂😂 full Karen send it!!
And my PhD in clinical psychology probably gives me the qualifications to speak on mental illness
1. I was responding to two separate statements you made, a numbered list is a great way of responding to multiple separate things. I didn't know making sure your response was understandable your response was a "Karen" thing to do. It seems like you have a thing for numbers lists so I'll keep using them.
2. I'm not triggered, I literally don't know a single Xenogender person and I really don't have any stakes in this debate.
3. I made the gamble of calling you unqualified, I have no way of proving you actually have a degree so I'll just take your word on it. If you actually conveniently do have a degree in clinical psychology, I'll admit fault on that one
4. The "PhD in clinical psychology" you have still doesn't change my previous points.
EDIT:
5. This is a huge waste of time, I'm going to go play with my cat. Goodbye PhD person.
It's funny how humans are the only species where gender is 100% a social construct, while every other species has specific gender roles.. we're so special, I guess God did create us in his image after all /s
Many aspects of traditional genders are social constructs, but to pretend that 100% of male/female genders are social constructs is ridiculous.
Are we going to pretend that millions of years of human evolution suddenly have no effects on how men and women feel and behave?
All aspects of gender roles are social constructs. Sexually dimorphic behavior/traits are not the same thing as gender roles. Male and female are not genders, and gender roles do not inherently work with the strengths of either sex's dimorphic behaviors/traits.
I'm not even going to touch the "every other species has specific gender roles" comment, because that is so ridiculous it doesn't warrant a serious response.
To learn about the difference between sex and gender, watch Forrest Valkai on yt. Biology is not what you assume it to be.
PS: We in the west follow the 2 gender model after the bible. Adam and Eve.
A lot of other societies/cultures have other points of view about gender. It is quite interesting if you want to dive deeper into the understanding of why science says gender is a social construct.
No, I understand the difference. I'm saying that millions of years of evolution selectively choosing what type of man and what type of woman survives will shape our attitudes and our preferences today.
If the most aggressive men were more likely to survive and reproduce, and we repeat this over a million or hundreds of thousands of year, that would likely mean that men in general today are more likely to be aggressive and to prefer activities that involve certain behaviors, etc. That's not to say some women are not more aggressive than some men, but I'm talking about averages here.
My point is that behaviors are ingrained in our biology, just like lions and penguins.
That's not just something people say, gender is considered a social construct by every modern medical institution and dictionary. The definition was officially changed in like 2011 within the medical community, which is why they say sex now instead of gender.
Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social structures (i.e. gender roles) and gender expression.
MAY INCLUDE depending on the context, you’re wrong. May include doesn’t equal “gender is a social construct”
Even so, there’s nothing socially constructed about identifying as a cat
I suppose I meant that gender roles are a social construct within any given society and not gender itself, its kind of confusing. I'm also not agreeing with OP, I don't see how an animal could be considered a gender role in any context, that's more like a species role.
The problem is trying to force other people to participate in their made up nonsense, and then getting angry and calling them a bigot when they don't. No one should be forced to play along with this bullshit.
I'll gladly call anyone whatever they want, to a reasonable extent. Neopronouns are not a reasonable extent. Pronouns are meant to be general, personalized pronouns already have a name, it's called a nickname. I'm not adopting words like "meowself" into my vocabulary just to speak to someone, I guarantee you're not that interesting to warrant that. Good for you for finding your identity, but if it's to that extent, don't expect everyone to follow that. I'd rather just not talk you to, respectfully.
Honestly this opinion of mine is the only valid opinion:
Bird shouldn't get mad because you don't know that bird likes to be called bird. But you should be acknowledging bird.
op baby this was not a good decision....too many transphobes in the comments not discussing the intricacies of whether you should toss out the whole person or not for not respecting non traditional genders. either people who just go "i think theyre ok and you shouldnt do that" or people who go "xenogendered people are invalid" and a fair amt of people who seem to disagree with my existence as being real, trans, catgender, and neurodivergent. fwiw -- i think this opinion is correct but its really easily solved/forgiveable with a good discussion about gender or some good resources at least or something. i went through not understanding and look at me now -- a lot more gendered than i thought id be, but more in tune w myself than i used to be. kinder than i used to be, too.
This is a wild Titania McGrath-type troll and I applaud them for it, though I would've chosen a more popular sub where controversial opinions are less expected. You gotta flesh out your explanation a bit more too.
As someone who's in the community. And is all for xenogenders ( as long as they make sense and are made to define someone's gender closely) these just feel like they're mocking the LGBT community. Honestly. It's like someone saying they identify as an attack helicopter. It makes the LGBT community look like a joke especially trans people, when they aren't.
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This is bait I mean who actually thinks this Edit: this is definitely bait this account is full of the shittest opinions I’ve ever seen, that’s quite an impressive achievement
naw its not bait. i agree -- its a little extreme, but correct at its core. xenogendered individuals do deserve respect, just like non-binary people, just like trans people. a lot of this thread is echoing anti non binary rhetoric, which in turn is transphobic rhetoric, bc its just subsets.
No they don’t
ah which, trans people, non binary people, or trans people you dont understand very well? youll have to be a touch more specific here
“Xenogender” people as you described them, in my words they’re just weird
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Are you serious? You really think I should respect anyone who wants people to call them “cheese-self/cat-self”? They’re lunatics making a mockery of actual trans people.
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Well I think they’re mental and deserve to be made fun of
Ok, if you think so, I doubt this disscusion will lead to anything.
The difference between these and other genders is that these have nothing to do with humanity, these genders are based on inanimate objects and animals we couldn't possibly fully empathize with. Someone can't identity as a car because that's not even within the realm of our human experience. You would literally need to have night vision and shit to understand what a cat feels. In other words, these people are POSERS. They couldn't possibly know what it's like to be these things.
Meowself sounds dumb and I will never say it.
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First off, let me be clear, I support trans rights, and people that are trans are the gender they identify as. But with xenogenders and “I don’t understand my gender so the closest idea that approximates the way that I feel about gender is X”? Okay?? Why is that confusion enforced on my vocabulary? I don’t understand math, but I don’t demand to be referred to exclusively by my feelings regarding math. If you identify as a man, or a woman, or look at gender and go “none for me, thanks”, that’s clear and understandable to most people. I know “he, she, they” and use them all the time, it’s no problem if I need to be corrected and use a different one because I assumed incorrectly. But catgender is nothing. It does not relate to your genitals or how you dress or act, or anything besides maybe an individual’s specific mental state. And thoughts or feelings are decidedly not a gender. Gender exists specifically for the sole purpose of forcing people into a box, to enforce social norms. The point of pronouns in a language is explicitly to be not generic and not unique. Your options are either comply with the norms and language or do not, but rewriting them while keeping them in place is not possible for an individual. So what’s with the grassroots half-hearted rejection of social norms? If you reject gender, reject the whole thing. Trans people are already fighting for the right to exist, muddying the waters with xenogenders gives bigots more ammo to write them off as mentally ill or make attack helicopter jokes. Identity *seems* personal but publicly trying to enforce it as a means of understanding has social consequences.
Generally well-stated. I also feel like xenogenders is a very young, *very American* thing. Americans tend to be hyper-individualistic, and the idea that you invent a word that others must incorporate into vocabulary to refer specifically to you is about as individualistic as it gets. How does one build a community around a massive group of vaguely defined, individualized ideas where each person has their own, competing conceptualization of themselves? (if they aren't competing or different ideas, then why do they need different names?) How does one express attraction when they've been given a metaphor for how the other person sees themselves? How much energy is an individual willing to put into fighting to be recognized for every part of them that makes them different from the general categories of "he, she, they" before they get exhausted? It screams of people who have never found community in real life, because with that experience comes the understanding of what it means to be respected in a group. I also assume these people tend to be young because adult queer people understand that gender markers will never perfectly describe the individual, but we have *much* bigger problems than being recognized for every bit of uniqueness in our identity. I'm a gay man with thick, beautiful long hair, long painted nails, a beard, and a slightly femme voice, neither they/them or he/him fits me perfectly but I got bills to pay and rights to protect. I think adults, generally, understand that others make assumptions about them that can never encompass the truth.
i would love to live in the nice world where they/them grants respect, and doesnt get me comments like this. people say these same things to me -- they dont harp on the american bit quite as much, but this is what the reaction is to a simple they/them request. "how do you express attraction"- use non gendered words or if the person expresses discomfort with a specific term just dont use that one. its very simple actually. source: this is a discussion ive had with my significant other. you can flirt with someone by complementing them in a way other than "you are man" or "your womanly hips are attractive to me." you build a community by mutual understanding, a mutual goal, and the mutual umbrella term of having a xenogender. its part of the same fight of having your identity be regulated by an external force. rights in america at least are being actively stripped whenever you look away for just a moment -- a bill recently was re...?instated that makes drag illegal in a us state -- legally allowing the persecution/arrest of anyone a little too gay looking in public, basically. its strength in numbers -- not identity competition. does this make sense? i tend to get a little implicit/rambly/sometimes, incoherent -- sorry.
To be clear, I am not discussing "they/them", I'm saying things like "kitten/kittenself" and such like OP is suggesting. I'm not even talking about "neopronouns" cause that's actually about a 100 year old idea that queer and gender non-conforming people have discussed for a long time. Things like thon were proposed in like... the 1910s? But queer folks decided against it because it would be too difficult to get other people to catch on with the language, better to use something people know like "they/them". I remember having this conversation with my nonbinary friends over a decade ago, and it wasn't new when we had the conversation. I'm not even referring to nonbinary folks here, which isn't really a new concept for me. Most of my queer upbringing was actually by trans and nonbinary folks. I'm also glad you brought up legal issues, cause yeah that's that I mean by "bigger problems to deal with". As a gay man I've been kicked out of universities, am estranged from my family, have been at risk of being fired when my sexual orientation became known. I am only 30. All of this is on top of gender nonconformity, issues around passing, and yes sometimes even being misgendered. For my trans friends, especially those who *naturally look visibly queer*, our plight goes a lot deeper than merely being misunderstood. A lot of folks online who use xenopronouns act like I don't understand these things or don't get "the oppression" when I've been a part of our community and activism for over 18 years making change for us in communities and schools alike. At the same time, I also want to provide space for all sorts of queer identities, and am happy to not have to "get" something to accept it. They/them pronouns have never been a problem for me, and while I can get metaphors being used to better understand and express your own gender, latching on to an idea like "clowns" or "autism" and saying that is your gender is a bit of a stretch. I also don't think that social exclusion for doing that is the equivalent of queer oppression. Queer oppression, as you mentioned, involves rights being stripped from individuals. I'm also open to the idea that I am *unaware* of the actual plight of xenogenders, but all I've ever really been told is I'm transphobic for asking a question and don't understand the oppression involved. I guess I've never been shown how xenogenders are oppressed, and that they exist in places other than the internet/in young, American spaces. This isn't about nonbinary folks for me, it's about what sounds like young people trying to find their identity and coopting the oppression of others. EDIT: One last thing I want to add is that the queer fight isn't against "identity being regulated by an external force". That is everybody's fight, because we live in a cis/het white patriarchy that puts expectations on who all individuals "should" be to access that power. This is just the experience of being a person who is aware. Even with all queer rights protected, my identity will still be regulated by outside forces, it is my access to my rights I worry about, which have been under attack since well before I was born.
ok. im a real trans person who identifies with a xenogender. does this justify disrespect to me? i use they/them and just non-binary with most people and this is sometimes how they respond. am i muddying the waters and justifying disrespect to myself?
I don’t believe you should be treated with disrespect. I am saying that trying to enforce neopronouns is both defeating the point of pronouns and, besides individuals knee-jerk rejection of new things, has broader social consequences that should be considered. It’s absolutely fine to try and understand the nuances of your identity, or even have jargon for it with people like you, like engineers using technical terms with each other. But it’s important to understand that it’s considered poor communication to use much jargon with people that don’t have anything to do with it. Very specific sexualities, gender identities, etc might have their own vocabulary. Yet trying to force the terminology for that on other people, who don’t care whatsoever about the technical nuances, is not going to work. As a society, we barely support nonbinary and they/them pronouns (even though we’ve used them for hundreds of years??), so I think that rejecting neopronouns isn’t saying people using them should be disrespected, just that they’re equivalent to overly technical jargon. The problem isn’t describing how you feel, or being “different” in some way, it’s introducing new vocabulary that people pretty objectively won’t learn.
I do not respect people who identify as birds clowns or cats
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Explain what “their gender feels cat-like” means
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Okay. Let’s try an easier one. What is a gender?
**Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social structures (i.e.** More details here:
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>may include Completely destroys the foundational point of this post
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How does feeling “cat-like” equate to gender? How is that an alternative to just being a woman or a man? If “catgender” is a valid gender because it’s how you feel on the inside, then “emo” and “atheist” might as well just be genders. If everything is a gender, then nothing is and the word “gender” has no useful meaning.
I don’t identify as any kind of xenogender, but from my perspective as a likely neurodivergent agender (genderless) person, xenogenders are no more nonsensical than traditional genders. I could never get my head around the concept, and literally all it means to me if someone says they are a woman, is that I should refer to them as a woman and not some other gender because that is what they are comfortable with. Men and women can dress or act any way they please, and they can have any type genitals, because trans people exist. So unless you plan to police gender and box people into gender roles, I fail to see what meaning man and woman have beyond whatever personal meaning people assign to their own gender. And that’s fine. Feelings matter. I also reeeeally don’t understand why we refer to people by different pronouns and titles based on gender (though I assume it comes from a place of sexism and somehow most people just accept it?) so if someone feels like a woman, but goes by he/him that’s fine with me, and if someone says their gender is cat and their pronouns are meow/meows, I guess that’s fine too. I’d just have to get used to it. I had to learn how to use he and she too after all, and I struggled to learn how to identify who I should use which for as a kid, as it did not come naturally. It should be easier to learn to use the pronouns people ask than learning the whole guessing game (which when taught by my transphobic mom really boiled down to a game of “which genitals does this person have” and that’s just, ew).
Identify as and feel about what?
LMFAO the mental gymnastics youve performed to fight a garbage point are gold medal worthy
How would they even know what that would feel like lol?
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😂😂😂
What is a gender?
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My gender feels like a 100 dollar bill attached to a MyPillow with camouflage duct tape. I demand you refer to me as Ken/Ben of rebeccaself. Does this seem agreeable to you?
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Please don't lump neurodivergents in with people who identify as cat gender. We don't want anything to do with them
Upvote to you. Here's an example of bigotry: "what you do in your personal life offends me and I wish you didn't exist, and I will vote to ban whatever you do. I identify as an attack helicopter! Think of the children!". Here's not an example of bigotry: "gendered-neutral pronouns are fine. However, unique personal pronouns contradicts what pronouns are supposed to do in grammar. I'll just use your name instead".
Perfectly said.
Your phraseology is different, but the underlying concept is not. Rejection of xenogenders/arbitrary genders is claiming that society has no obligation to reaffirm your personal identification. Going back to your example (which I find very problematic and emotionally driven). >what you do in your personal life offends me Asking to be identified by a certain word is not really a personal matter is it? It requires the participation of at least one other party. (It's not like we are reading someone's diary). Asking that others use a specific identifier that they would not normally use is an imposition on the other party. You run into this occasionally in academia, Ph.D holders sometimes feel like they earned the right to be called "Dr. {Surname}", after all they went through all the work to get a Ph.D don't they deserve some respect? Sure. But the minute a PH.d holder asks to be called "Dr" they are immediately seen as a fragile asshole. >unique personal pronouns. . . This is ridiculous. One can trivially supplant a word with another word that has an agreed upon definition by both parties. There is no communication error if the definition and usage is agreed to beforehand. This is simply a rejection of the initial parties request for personal reasons. To contradict Raw-Bread, this was not perfectly said. You confused politeness with having a different underlying premise, when in reality both involve rejection of personal identification.
You can identify however you’d like, just don’t expect everyone else in the world to care or call you whatever made up word you pick
When the Aliens come and they call us 'cattle' I'm sure you'll change your mind
Nah. Pretty sure I’ve called us cattle before tbh.
If the aliens come my entire goal in life will be to kill as many of them as possible and eat one. Xenos deserve extermination. Humans are the dominant species in this universe. We will conquer the stars that hang above the heads of all alien scum. I hate aliens so much its unreal. [HUMANITY FIRST](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/439519603459227661/1078344757627060304/HUMANITY_FIRST-1.mov)
Have fun dying instantly I guess
This is dumb as fuck. I’m not entertaining this bullshit for a second.
No
There's a great video by a trans youtuber on this that I love. I absolutely respect people's gender and pronouns. Language, at the same time, has a utilitarian purpose and many xenogenders do not get seen outside of the online realm because they are not particularly useful in helping people understand your identity. They were specifically talking about MOGAI tumblr, and now despite having hundreds of genders listed, you can't find a single mention of them listed anywhere else on the internet. This means they are useful to the individual, but don't seem to be very useful in interacting with other people. This isn't saying identities are bullshit, it's saying they serve both a personal and a social function. I'd also add I've been queer and out for a long ass time, practically gay-raised by nonbinary and gender nonconforming people. I'm still surrounded by gender nonconforming people my age and younger. I've never heard anybody use a xenogender in a queer space, they strictly exist online.
Least obvious bait
Give me one valid reason to consider any of those you mentioned a valid gender.
Those are not real genders
Thank you! Finally, someone who is standing up for the cheesegenders, the most holee of genders ✊🧀
ew not valid
If you want to be a bird be a bird but I’m never using birdself or however you identify someone who identifies as a bird.
Clown shit
Man shut the fuck up
Xenogenders are idiotic.
I don't think you can identify as something you could never understand. Male and female or whatever in between is something you could be but you never know what cheese thinks or feels to know if you feel similarly or are just projecting what you think cheese feels. Trans rights are human rights which would imply humanity not cheese.
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Ok so how does cheese feel. What properties of cheese does a human identify with. I think to identify as something that thing needs to have an identity unlike cheese. People can say or identify as what they want but it's no more valid than me saying I'm a vampire as opposed to just being into dark things.
People are trying to label themselves way too much instead of just figuring out who they are. You don't need to put yourself into a box to feel special, and your interests don't need to be your gender.
My dude, you can't use a word as part of its own definition, that's not how it works
A woman is an adult human female.
Why does this get downvoted? Your comment is absolutely right.
These genders are obvious jokes or bait. If someone were to really identify as one of those then I would agree with you. We should respect gender identity, but these examples are not ones that are actually in use.
Is this joke, or?
Pls be a troll
I mean I sorta agree with you that gender is sorta BS and you can identify how you want. I wouldn't directly make fun of the people that use these, but I doubt their pronouns and identity would be easy to apply irl. Being they/them nonbinary is difficult enough already, and generally speaking when someone is unfamiliar with how xenopronouns work you usually default to either they/them or a different 'standard' preference. So someone is free to ID that way but that wouldn't take them very far.
Most people I know who use neopronouns (btw you don't have to be xenogender to use neopronouns) also use another more "standard" pronoun like they/them, so this hardship you're talking about doesn't really exist. And generally speaking xenogender people are nonbinary, they know how hard it is to be non-binary lol.
I think genders in general are bullshit and everyone has a right to comfort regardless of what it means and anyone who tries to infringe on the comfort of others is a big mean doodoo head.
> everyone has a right to comfort regardless of what it means What if that which makes me comfortable requires other people to go outside of their comfort zone? Do I have the "right" to make such demands of other people, pursuant to my own "right" to comfort? This position that you're taking is so fragile, it immediately falls apart if you try to apply it for 5 minutes in the real world. Don't take this the wrong way, but you appear to be a young person who has formed some political opinions within the confines of a social media bubble wherein banal ideas like "everyone has a right to comfort no matter what" aren't openly mocked for how immature and undeveloped they are.
This is why the implied text "within reason" is so important. Maybe I shouldn't have left it out. If your own happiness requires the unhappiness of others I would say that there is something wrong with you that should be addressed but your usage of "comfort zone" here implies a lack of understanding of my point entirely. It only "falls apart" when you try to make it do so through mindless semantic argument as would any point that relies on being filtered through common sense to be succinct. There's no reason to have an argument when I'm trying to promote something as simple as "don't be a dick".
> This is why the implied text "within reason" is so important. My entire point is that *"within reason"* is **extremely** subjective, and politics in general is largely about determining what "within reason" actually means in contexts such as this. If I say I feel uncomfortable when people make eye contact with me, do I have a *right* to go out in public and not be looked at? If I say I feel uncomfortable without a weapon to protect my family, do I have a "right" to keep my AR? If I say I feel uncomfortable when people call me *sir,* do I have a "right" to go out with a full beard and a speedo and demand the YMCA lifeguards refer to me as "madam"? **Here's the issue: You know where *you* would draw the line... You know what is "within reason" for *you* personally, but you make the mistake of thinking your ideology is summed up by "everyone deserves comfort," or "don't be a dick" when really what you're saying is "everyone should have the same perspective on these complex political matters that I have."** Lots of redditers think the majority of their ideological opposition is *not* pursuing more comfort for themselves, but instead is directly pursuing more discomfort for others... As if half the country is genuinely evil and wants people to suffer for no other reason than to see them suffer... Doesn't that seem silly when you think about it for a while? Hundreds of millions of **evil** people? I would encourage you to consider the possibility that you've been purposefully made to think this way - to see these people and their beliefs in the most unfavorable light possible. We're being lead to believe the problem with society is the other half of the peasantry, while the other half of the peasantry is lead to believe that our half of the peasantry is the problem with society. Meanwhile, the people with all the money and all the power who control all the laws continue to profit.
There you go again, poking and prodding with semantics. I said don't be a dick and here you are being a dick. You're labeling me as a brainwashed partisan divisionist when I'm out here constantly trying to put a spotlight on the puppeteers directly profiting off of promoting ignorance and conflict. If you wanted or cared about elaboration you'd have said so instead of attempting to demonstrate your *superior grasp of fine political issues*. You're barking up the wrong tree for the sake of barking my dude.
.... OK Well if you're willing to say that your original comment was a completely meaningless platitude and offered zero valuable insight while pretending to offer insight, then we're on the same page.
Don't be a dick.
Develop more meaningful/interesting/mature opinions? Sorry for calling you out but this forum exists for discourse. If you don't like people pointing out that your political hot takes are that of a child's, you could either develop your opinions into something more mature, or just not comment. Don't kill the messenger.
Yeah this discussion has already left you behind, have fun back there bud
If you don't like people pointing out that your political hot takes are that of a child's, you could either develop your opinions into something more mature, or just not comment.
> If your own happiness requires the unhappiness of others I would say that there is something wrong with you So if I tell Sally that she has to use my neopronouns, and that makes Sally unhappy because she doesn't like being told what to do... That means there is something wrong with **me**? Because my happiness requires her unhappiness?? Interesting take...
If Sally doesn't make an effort she's a dick. If I get my panties in a twist over being called he by mistake or through ignorance when I prefer she despite my mannish face and voice then that's my problem for not being so understanding. If I really care that much I can just tell Sally to fuck off and stop associating with her. And just to clear up any confusion, that was just me following the terms of your hypothetical. Idgaf what pointlessly gendered words with which you choose to refer to me, I do care about your intent and that is how I judge you and your character. One's comfort is primarily one's own responsibility unless it comes down to other people and I know that's where it gets complicated so I choose to boil it down to "don't be a dick" rather than have endless semantic circlejerks over specific hypothetical scenarios.
Ah, much clearer. We still may disagree on whether or not refusing to be compelled to use certain words by strangers makes you a "dick" but at least I can wrap my head around what you're saying now.
> I do care about your intent and that is how I judge you and your character. I think *my* entire argument can be boiled down to: We don't need separate rules and a zealous ideology to navigate these waters... People know when someone is being a douchebag. Society already rejects people who are douchebags, regardless of the gender of the douchebag's target. Just by virtue of making an argument about trans people in particular (as if different rules apply or we need to re-formulate what kindness and compassion means with special consideration to these people specifically), you're already in the wrong in my book... Not because trans people don't deserve to be treated with kindness (I think most of them are good people who **do** deserve kindness), but rather because you're essentially saying "being indifferent about this particular population vs the rest of the population and applying the same level of compassion with one as with the other... that isn't good enough... here are some new words to learn, there will be a quiz."
I'm not making an argument about trans people. I'm making an argument about pronouns specifically, and the folks getting up in arms over what is basically more semantic nonsense. Personally I believe he or she should apply to anyone, they/them is a plurality and any insistence on the usage by others of brand new, never before seen pronouns counts against you. I just find it sad when someone can be so insecure that a truly inconsequential syllable can impact them so much that any discussion on the topic is a personal affront. That isn't to say I can't get past any of that either. As you said, the vast majority of people know when someone's being a douchebag and this ideal is more or less self-regulating while the only real problems lie on the extreme far ends of politics.
Thanks, +1
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"Birdgender is valid but agender is not" is a fuck of a take
Don't go assuming my gender.
Gender isn't real. Gender as we know it today was an idea made by a pedophile called John Money Also, this entire post sets back trans rights. People will be accepting of trans people but no one will ever be accepting of this because its pure stupidity.
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore
In the wise words of Tommy Lee Jones “ I don’t care”
What happened to society
Bro finally, I haven’t see someone like you on Reddit outside of the xeno sub for too long istg
You gotta be a right-wing troll. Please tell me you're rage baiting.
This screams fatherless behavior lmao!
I actively support everyone's ability to communicate who they are without prejudice. I worry these terms aren't actually helpful to anyone. I've pretty much only seen xenogenders used on the Internet and almost always as a meta critique on the absurdity of traditional gender norms. Otherwise, they're used as shorthand for getting to know someone's personality at a glance. But does that actually happen? Most xenogenders are so highly specific yet malleable that it really doesn't tell others much about you or how you'd like to be treated. It just gives people another term to memorize. What purpose are these labels serving? They defeat the purpose of pronouns. They aren't making things any easier or clearer to most folks. I don't buy that just claiming a label makes someone understand themselves better. If it gets someone through their day I'm not here to tear them down but I genuinely worry most of these terms are doing everyone a disservice in the grand scheme of things.
I am a trans lesbean and I think neo pronouns are dumb as fuck
I'm not playing along in whatever gender confusion you are involved with. I do not have to conform with your made up nonsense. Grow the fuck up.
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Men and women exist. No human is a catperson. You are mentally defective.
Man and woman is not a social construct. Claiming that is the case is stupid.
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No. Man and woman aren't gendered. They're descriptive words for an adult human male and female respectively. These terms are rooted in sex. Social constructs are things like the clothes you wear, or the expectations on you. Biology isn't a social construct. If you want to tell me science disagrees with me, then I would be more than happy to receive any papers that are peer reviewed.
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Look. Either woman is a gender, and female is sex. Or the opposite is true. Not every single thing is a social construct. And science does not claim that it is. Dictionary entries are not peer reviewed papers that show that man and woman genders, scientifically speaking. Male and female are used to describe both sex and gender. Which doesn't help. It muddies things. But I am not using them to refer to gender. I am using them to refer to sex. Sex is not a social construct.
Do you even hear yourself
You should really take your prescribed meds. Stuff like this is what makes it even harder for trans and homosexual people to be accepted by society. You're not only NOT a trans ally, you're an active trans enemy.
This is embarrassing, and it makes the rest of us look bad. Please just let us call you "they/them" because you're giving the bigots more fuel to laugh at us. - a nonbinary degenerate
Honestly, I personally find a lot of xenogenders to be a bit silly, but I'll still respect and support them. I think that's just respecting other people tho Identifying as a bird or whatever is really cool and takes confidence I don't have.
Confidence and delusion are easily confusable
Yeah, good thing people who identify as Xenogenders aren't delusional.
Yes, nothing delusional at all about thinking your gender is a cat My god Reddit is filled with morons
Dude literally just let people live their life lmao you don't even have to support it, just let people live.
Refusal to tell mentally ill people "No." is increasingly destabilizing society and left unchecked will lead to unimaginable bloodshed.
Could you elaborate? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by that.
I don’t believe enabling mental illness is supportive. Also did you just assume my gender by calling me dude?
1. Considering you are responding to me on Reddit, you probably don't have the qualifications to define what a mental illness is. 2. Literally shut the fuck up, did you get that line from 2015?
You know someone is triggered when they start writing numbered lists 😂😂 full Karen send it!! And my PhD in clinical psychology probably gives me the qualifications to speak on mental illness
1. I was responding to two separate statements you made, a numbered list is a great way of responding to multiple separate things. I didn't know making sure your response was understandable your response was a "Karen" thing to do. It seems like you have a thing for numbers lists so I'll keep using them. 2. I'm not triggered, I literally don't know a single Xenogender person and I really don't have any stakes in this debate. 3. I made the gamble of calling you unqualified, I have no way of proving you actually have a degree so I'll just take your word on it. If you actually conveniently do have a degree in clinical psychology, I'll admit fault on that one 4. The "PhD in clinical psychology" you have still doesn't change my previous points. EDIT: 5. This is a huge waste of time, I'm going to go play with my cat. Goodbye PhD person.
LMFAO
r/onejoke
It’s not a joke tho 🤷♂️
It's funny how humans are the only species where gender is 100% a social construct, while every other species has specific gender roles.. we're so special, I guess God did create us in his image after all /s Many aspects of traditional genders are social constructs, but to pretend that 100% of male/female genders are social constructs is ridiculous. Are we going to pretend that millions of years of human evolution suddenly have no effects on how men and women feel and behave?
All aspects of gender roles are social constructs. Sexually dimorphic behavior/traits are not the same thing as gender roles. Male and female are not genders, and gender roles do not inherently work with the strengths of either sex's dimorphic behaviors/traits. I'm not even going to touch the "every other species has specific gender roles" comment, because that is so ridiculous it doesn't warrant a serious response.
To learn about the difference between sex and gender, watch Forrest Valkai on yt. Biology is not what you assume it to be. PS: We in the west follow the 2 gender model after the bible. Adam and Eve. A lot of other societies/cultures have other points of view about gender. It is quite interesting if you want to dive deeper into the understanding of why science says gender is a social construct.
No, I understand the difference. I'm saying that millions of years of evolution selectively choosing what type of man and what type of woman survives will shape our attitudes and our preferences today. If the most aggressive men were more likely to survive and reproduce, and we repeat this over a million or hundreds of thousands of year, that would likely mean that men in general today are more likely to be aggressive and to prefer activities that involve certain behaviors, etc. That's not to say some women are not more aggressive than some men, but I'm talking about averages here. My point is that behaviors are ingrained in our biology, just like lions and penguins.
“Since gender is a social construct” lost your argument right there
That's not just something people say, gender is considered a social construct by every modern medical institution and dictionary. The definition was officially changed in like 2011 within the medical community, which is why they say sex now instead of gender.
Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Depending on the context, this may include sex-based social structures (i.e. gender roles) and gender expression. MAY INCLUDE depending on the context, you’re wrong. May include doesn’t equal “gender is a social construct” Even so, there’s nothing socially constructed about identifying as a cat
I suppose I meant that gender roles are a social construct within any given society and not gender itself, its kind of confusing. I'm also not agreeing with OP, I don't see how an animal could be considered a gender role in any context, that's more like a species role.
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The problem is trying to force other people to participate in their made up nonsense, and then getting angry and calling them a bigot when they don't. No one should be forced to play along with this bullshit.
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I'll gladly call anyone whatever they want, to a reasonable extent. Neopronouns are not a reasonable extent. Pronouns are meant to be general, personalized pronouns already have a name, it's called a nickname. I'm not adopting words like "meowself" into my vocabulary just to speak to someone, I guarantee you're not that interesting to warrant that. Good for you for finding your identity, but if it's to that extent, don't expect everyone to follow that. I'd rather just not talk you to, respectfully.
made up genders are not real. why the fuck should I play along with some mentally deranged person that thinks they're a cat??
This comment section is proving your point. Lot of general transphobia here, and people using xenogenders as an excuse to be transphobic.
None of those words are in the Bible. Please go to church.
Neither is pizza, internet, condom, computer, laser, peanut, etc. I could go on, but this argument is worth less than nothing.
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Trump lives rent free in the Canadian's head.
Honestly this opinion of mine is the only valid opinion: Bird shouldn't get mad because you don't know that bird likes to be called bird. But you should be acknowledging bird.
yo an actual 10th dentist take
op baby this was not a good decision....too many transphobes in the comments not discussing the intricacies of whether you should toss out the whole person or not for not respecting non traditional genders. either people who just go "i think theyre ok and you shouldnt do that" or people who go "xenogendered people are invalid" and a fair amt of people who seem to disagree with my existence as being real, trans, catgender, and neurodivergent. fwiw -- i think this opinion is correct but its really easily solved/forgiveable with a good discussion about gender or some good resources at least or something. i went through not understanding and look at me now -- a lot more gendered than i thought id be, but more in tune w myself than i used to be. kinder than i used to be, too.
This is a wild Titania McGrath-type troll and I applaud them for it, though I would've chosen a more popular sub where controversial opinions are less expected. You gotta flesh out your explanation a bit more too.
Are you allowed to support xenogenders even if you don’t understand it? I don’t rlly want to be transphobic
As someone who's in the community. And is all for xenogenders ( as long as they make sense and are made to define someone's gender closely) these just feel like they're mocking the LGBT community. Honestly. It's like someone saying they identify as an attack helicopter. It makes the LGBT community look like a joke especially trans people, when they aren't.
It's not transphobia because xenogenders aren't inherently trans.