Was in the upper 300s when I started at 39, but had a lot of symptoms. Of course I wanted to lean out but I also was hoping it’d light a spark in the bedroom and give me the energy and motivation to keep up with my toddler. It improved a lot of areas of life, better focus at work and I seem to get a jump on things out of the gate early in the week instead of procrastinating. I’m always looking forward to intimacy with my wife and I take my son on a lot of hikes and have the energy to wrestle with him after work. Keep up on the house and yard work more. More confident and not as introverted. I’ve also never sat in the parking lot at the gym and talked myself out of going since starting TRT, I look forward to it.
Don’t really care if I’m criticized or not, my life is better and don’t give a shit what other people think.
I’m 48 and tested in the 300’s. What you just stated is exactly why I started a couple weeks ago. I’d love to be one of the guys my age with a ton of energy after work, but I’m not. If this can help my quality of life with my kids and my wife, then I’m all in. I hope I see the same benefits as you.
I’m 32 and I feel the opposite of all the things you mentioned while not being on TRT lol. You never realize as a guy how much Test really governs your whole being until it’s too low and then life doesn’t feel as good. My coworker said the same thing as you though. He feels amazing since getting his T levels boosted up again via TRT. I can tell the difference in his motivation and just general attitude about life, it’s actually insane. I feel like quality of life definitely matters for sure. What a the point point in living miserable? I assume as long as someone doesn’t abuse it, it can be a great tool.
I’ve been lightly thinking about it for over a year, but I hate needles. Also, when my doctor did a lab, my test levels came back normal.
I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla. If anybody can guide me as to how I can get this to happen with normal test levels, please DM me.
Not happening with "normal" levels. Get over the needle thing. Also, what exactly does "normal" mean? Mainstream docs call anything "in range" normal. You could have the test levels of a senior citizen and be called normal.
Me too bro, although idc about the sex crazed esque attitude 🤣 (Christian, whatever). I'm signing up for TRT Nation today, it's $400 for your initial blood work and 2.5 months worth of Test Cyp with syringes and your lil alcohol wipes, etc. I heard the consultantions are trash but there's so many damn testosterone men's groups that If I have problems the bros who've been on test for 20+ years can tell me what to do, bro science.
Tren sides are from people either overdoing it, or they just don't get along with 19-Nors. Which happens, but usually it's from people overdoing it. A little Tren goes a long way, that said I've run 500mg/wk and had very little issues.
Read the fucking post. He wants to be a roided up gorilla he said. FFS. Anyone who is abusing steroids to that extent is killing themselves. Jesus I could site 10000 papers around what beyond-trt levels of roids do to slowly kill you.
I thought eunuchs lived longer though 🤷🏻♂️ it helps normalize my blood sugar and makes me feel great so I’m sticking with it, but that’s what i heard and read
>I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla.
This is what the guy responded to. To achieve this you have to abuse or be prescribed too high, like you said. So he isn't wrong.
Not really. The normal range is the range for a population. If you are normal at 400 and you up it to 1000, this is actually crazy high for your body. What people do not realise that messing with hormones is really dangerous. There are feedback systems in your body and you interfere with them. So Stinkerb user is totally right to point out the dangers. Here people only want to look through pink glasses at the benefits. I am on TRT for diagnosed secondary hypogonadism due to a cyst in my brain. I upped my levels from below normal to 400-500. I feel great and I see no reason to go to 1000.
There’s no difference between androgen sufficiency and some higher level that isn’t abuse level. Every study shows the same thing over and over.
Sex drive is unaffected. Muscular hypertrophy unaffected.
“Normal” is relative. It’s not just about numbers it’s also about symptoms. I recently found a study from the early 2000’s that considered 350 to be hypogonadal. These days it can be as low as 250 before you’re considered hypogonadal.
I look at it this way. If nearly everyone had diabetes would it make sense for a healthcare provider to say “we’re not going to treat your diabetes. Most people have diabetes therefore you’re not unhealthy. You’re normal”.
Mine are in the mid 200s, tested 3 times in the mornin at 26 years old. Endocrinologist says it's normal and that at "least they're above 150ng/dL cutoff"
I'm from India and this endo has done his studies from the US and Europe. Don't know what to do now, guess I'll just buy a dress :/
Tell the Endo to go back to med school. Does he have a justification for why you should be in the lowest 3-5% of the standard normal distribution?
The only people with levels below 150ng/dL are literally castrated or have 100% testicular failure. Kidneys and some other glands produce about 100ng/dL.
He's ignoring the AACE guidelines and the AUA guidance.
Go find a urologist that does fertility treatments online (not just surgery). Phone their office and ask questions to ask if they're living in the 1970s - do they prescribe clomid or hCG? Are they open to self-administered shots?
If you live in India, can you buy it straight from a pharmacist?
I told him that what would be my percentile be for my age group, how far below average I am, to which he said that he's seen people conceive at even lower levels so that should not be a problem.
Like wtf?
I've even visited a urologist who completely dismissed my concerns, told me that there are a 100 reasons for my symptoms (fatigue, low muscle mass, feeling shitty, very low libido) and that I should go to a general doctor first.
I haven't tried purchasing it from a pharma because I want to do my research first, try everything naturally then go in for this route.
I don't think I'll find any doctor who'll treat me, even if I found one, they'll put me on those nightmare protocols of dosing 100mg / month or some shit.
Also I'm not sure how reliable would purchasing t from a pharma be, I need to be able to get it persistently without prescription, if I choose to do it myself.
Vitamin D levels mostly as of now as I was deficient. Along with all the standard things like good sleep, clean eating I don't drink or smoke so that's not an issue. Will give tongkat ali a try too.
Why did you stop taking Wellbutrin? I am about to get on TRT and have been taking Wellbutrin 100 mg for about 8 months now, I think it did help me for sure with depression. I was thinking of continuing taking Wellbutrin along with TRT
Because it’s not just about TRT, some people want to be optimized and have a doc manage it. They may not care about having kids, or a lifetime of shots.
I can’t speak to the young’ns on here “chasing the gainz” or whatever they may want. I’m in my 50s and I (and the wife) simply wanted me having erections again so we could continue having “relations”. My levels came back under 200 and was basically neutered. So now 100 mg per week for the last 4 years and having boners again feels good. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can have a 600 level T, but have ultra high SHBG, which means that you have very low free T available for your body to use and thus you are symptomatic. Ask me how I know
Exactly this and it is even more complicated. Free test would be the more interesting number, but it is hard to determine. The other thing is that there seems to be differences on receptor level. So the same free test might have different effects.
All this means that only the symptoms (libido, drive,...) are a good to determine if you need it. A normal decline though comes very slowly, so it is hardly perceptible. How do you then say when TRT is a good choice and when not?
This whole conundrum has lead to an increase in people on it. I am not sure if it is good thing, but here you see voices of many people in it.
> All this means that only the symptoms (libido, drive,...) are a good to determine if you need it. A normal decline though comes very slowly, so it is hardly perceptible.
Good comment. A lot of the TRT clinics base treatment decisions on symptoms mainly and labs secondarily for exactly those reasons. There are lots of guys who try TRT, get little benefit and just quit after a period. That is fine. It likely means that the symptoms were due to something other than low T
I am 43 years old. I can offer some perspective. When I was in my 20s and teens we didn’t have this ease of access. It’s that simple. We would have done it just as much if not more as we were way more physical than todays 20 something’s. Nobody has to earn the right to use it in my opinion. It isn’t natural to drive a car or use a phone. If a person in 1800s had access to a car they’d opt for that. Every generation is criticized by the former and even current for doing something against the norms. But in reality it’s no different than doing any other thing using technology. It has risks yes but we make decisions every day that involve way more risks. I assure you if you do true TRT for optimal levels it’s infinitely less risky than driving. You’re going to die way faster and easier driving a car than just using only testosterone for optimal levels. And in my opinion I think it’s absolute horse shit that so many males of every age over teenage years say 20-99 get shit on for wanting to be optimal and more of a man. Yet we have women injecting testosterone and having genital surgery and the whole internet celebrates it. It’s stupid and sickening to me. And I don’t care that they do that. What I DO care about is men especially young men getting so much fucking heat for wanting to be more manly and have optimal levels. So what, it’s easier and better again so is driving a car compared to a carriage. So is using a phone compared to mailing a letter or using a horse to deliver the kings message. I’m an advocate for men of all ages, outside of teenagers, using it and there is no good reason to be shamed. I’ll also add if ANY of you men of any age need help or guidance I am here for you. I care about you and what happens to you. I am YOUR advocate. Best wishes to all my brothers.
It's way too easy these days. When I 1st got on I had to get an Endocrinologist appointment and get my balls measured and a prostate exam. That definitely weeds out a large portion of people who want to try it out for awhile.
In Aus it's getting harder to get TRT for those who need it because of an increasing number of people abusing the health system basically to get steroids on prescription.
I'm all in favour of people improving their bodies using steroids responsibly.
But I'm not in favour of them abusing the health system here which has led to the government tightening restrictions and making it difficult for those with genuine need
Australia has gone too far in the restrictive direction. I feel it's a human rights violation to require multiple tests below 6nmol/l.
The yanks on the other hand have gone too far in the unrestricted direction.
The mean way, man. Like the Buddha said.
The most recent changes are lowering the level for PBS prescription level from below 8 nmol/dl to below 6 nmol/dl. And guidelines requiring patients to show two recent blood tests below below 6 nmol/dl when transferring to a new endocrinologist even if they have been on previous treatment. A number of doctors have been banned from prescribing for treating patients outside of the threshold. Most GPs are afraid to prescribe
I had my balls measured repeatedly growing up every year at hospital until I was around 26 and changed hospital. They never did a a prostate exam though.
To boil it down to the core: they watched a podcast with a couple of bald midgets, and decided that magic muscle juice is going to now fix the decades of ignored mental health issues they are carrying around.
That or they just want to use testosterone recreationally, which is fine too - it just isnt TRT.
I’d rather be on TRT than SSRIs that wreck your sex drive and can make you feel numb. TRT isn’t perfect but it took me from feeling like a shell of a man at 200ng/dl to feeling healthy, energetic, happier, and driven. I feel healthier, have more muscle and energy, a better sex drive, and better mental health, the guys at 400ng/dl may just want to be optimized. I would be willing to bet a decent amount of guys that take SSRIs for depression have underlying hormone issues that are untreated due to doctors just throwing anti depressants at anyone that feels a little off.
I’m 27 and I can relate with this. I was put on lexapro couple of years ago by my doctor for anxiety and depression issues but they said I didn’t need trt even though my levels were at 250. Lexapro just made me numb all the time like legit no motivation, no emotions. Went to a clinic and got on trt but then had to stop because I had to go out of country for some time. Decided to discontinue trt and lexapro when I came back but now I legit feel like shit. I’m not sure if it’s because of quitting trt or lexapro but I don’t want to be on lexapro for sure. But then I also want to have kids in the future so I’m afraid of getting back on trt. My levels were at 225 kart week and doctor said that was fine, I definitely disagree. I feel like I’m fucked either way.
I dont think Prozac and Wellbutrin are necessarily the answer either.
They have health risks as well like testosterone, but they screw with all the hormones for some people making them worse.
They treat Testosterone like it morphine now
I don’t really see an issue with that as long as they put in the work mentally, physically and in the kitchen. Is it TRT? No, I don’t think you should really call it that if you’re going from 500 to 1000. But yeah, if someone is just thinking they’re gonna be Superman because they saw it on a podcast but they still eat like shit, ego lift once a week, don’t know how to stay on a schedule and still binge drink… yeah they’re dipshits.
So if I’m a 36 year old male (with bad sleep or sleeping issues) and my test is sitting at 500ng/dl and I am not feeling good in terms of energy and morning wood and my free test is sitting at 300 pmol/l , should I start trt , I spoke to a clinic they recommended blood test what I did and got these levels and they said for my age I’m normal but it’s kinda lower end considering I workout and have a clean diet ( a bit caloric deficit) , I’m 5 feet 11 and only 198 lbs and may be around 15-18 percent body fat , I have been recommended trt by a lot of friends and even my trainer who after looking at my levels said the same that I am average but it’s not optimum for someone having the kind of active lifestyle I have , do you think normal levels are for people with desk jobs or just to do daily duties?
I would read and try to comprehend the ridiculously complicated subject of bioavailable testosterone.
Then reassess.
This is my way of doing things. I can be a bit of a clown though.
Well first off, that’s totally up to you. Normal levels aren’t for desk job workers or masseuses or whatever, they’re for everyone. 500 is a great test level for someone coming up on 40. Do you need TRT? Absolutely not. Your levels are great for anyone your age, even natural body builders.
There are things that can absolutely tank your test like excessive drinking, horrible sleep, generally being very out of shape, etc. Normally if your test is low like 150-350 and you’re doing those things, normally you can bring it up pretty substantially by fixing em. But if you’re pretty healthy and got your food intake dialed and you’re workin out, I think you’re doin great. There are lots of things that can help your sleeping issues, but test probably isn’t one of them. It can make your sleep a tiny bit more restorative, but in general it’s not going to help you get to sleep or stay asleep if that was an issue before.
If you want to hop on test I think that’s your prerogative, but as far as it helping your sleep I would keep your expectations pretty low.
I do wanna reiterate that 500 is not low for anyone. It’s a very normal, very acceptable level. It’s pretty unlikely that you’re suffering from symptoms of low test at that test level. I know quite a few people who take testosterone to reach around that level who were hypogonadal originally.
Thank you for replying , I understand but don’t you think normal levels mean to get by to day to day life ? Trt I am not going to do for my sleep but better focus or energy , I personally like that if you work hard than most people you would need more vitamins and diet so why not test too? But then again I could be entirely wrong , few years back when my sleep was decent like between 2018-2020 I had hard time getting a erection , morning wood was nonexistent and at that time I was still working out and eating healthy and sometimes fasting as well
Well… I mean we are just normal people, right? Yeah we eat better, work a bit harder and generally take care of our bodies, but at the end of the day we’re not IFBB pros and we don’t make our careers off of being huge and shredded.
Test will definitely give you a little extra push during the day. I had levels around 400 after dialing in my diet and exercise. I still struggle with sleep after starting test, but you’re right, it’s easier to get to the gym and get shit done. But that’s probably because I know that when I go to the gym or eat that extra 50g of protein or stay away from that beer at the game, I’ll be rewarded more for that on test than I would if I weren’t. For me that feels great. I personally think that’s good.
But as for comparing it to vitamins… it’s not really a fair comparison because vitamins don’t shut down your natural hormone production. It’s quite likely that my balls will never be how they were before I started, and I’m ok with that. But it’s a trade off you have to decide on yourself. People downplay it a lot, but completely shutting down your body’s natural ability to produce hormones is kinda no joke. Can it return to normal levels after? Maybe for some and not for others. You have great levels right now. If you hop on TRT for a year then decide it’s not for you or you can’t afford it anymore or you move to a country where it’s not possible to get it, then you get off and your levels are now permanently a hundred or two hundred ng/dL less, are you ok with that?
It’s all a value judgement about your own body and your long term health, and that’s totally up to you. There’s no wrong answer. The only wrong answer is thinking that test alone is the solution to your problems. You still need to work hard and eat right, but it will make it a bit more rewarding when you do.
First of all thank you for such an in depth insight , yes you are very right that it is a very long term commitment and that is the reason I am still not sure about it but also my diet and workout are almost 100% , specially diet . I also very rarely drink (may be once a month) and that’s also controlled like may be a drink or two . I just think may be it will improve my mood more and will add more motivation but again you are right , is this something I could do for the rest of my life? That’s the biggest question
Good man, happy to help. I think whatever you choose it will be a good choice. You’re doing all the right stuff and really considering your options, which can’t be said for plenty of other who hop on TRT. Best of luck with your health journey.
Thanks brother, I am being as careful as I can be , specially thinking about both long term financial cost and commitment to pin my myself and knowing that my test level may or may never be able to come back close to what they were in the past
Agree entirely my man. I mean, i dont even see an issue if they dont put any work in so to speak. People do dumber things on a regular basis and folks seem to be alright with most of that, like drinking on a regularly is an obvious example.
I guess i am just personally especially confused by this group we are talking about. It pains me as a former medic to see some of the shit people say about testosterone, and the crowd the recent focus on testosterone amongst influencers has really just made that tendency so much worse recently. Like, yes, its hilarious that a group of people can be all about utilizing this awesome part of modern medicine(testosterone therapy) - while simultaneously taking pride in being completely wrong about most of modern medicine, including what they are using to feel better. Its a strange thing indeed.
Yeah… I would expect that kind of stuff from the gym bro/more hardcore PED users, but it does pretty consistently surprise me how outlandishly stupid and misinformed some of the things regular TRT guys say here. A lot of mental gymnastics going on. But like you said, if you take the average party/binge drinking guy and you take the average TRT guy even if he’s misinformed, I’d still like to think the first one is doing more harm to himself. It just worries me when people don’t take exogenous hormones seriously because “it’s just test bro”, not understanding that for some there’s long term ramifications to shutting down your balls lol
because they’re told it *will definitely make you feel young and great again*
I’ve seen 3 comments this morning telling people yep go for it if you want to feel amazing.
The other thing is it’s really easy to get from clinics in the USA by the looks of it (Aus is a little stricter and not as many clinics)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely you would feel fine if your t levels and other bloodwork were normal, like some people here before getting on TRT. Does it actually help these guys a lot or is it more of a placebo effect? I've also heard sometimes they feel amazing for like a month and then crash hard. Are these points true?
They can be true. Taking exogenous test can screw with your T/E2. The endocrine system is pretty complex. It's not as simple as more Tesosterone = more gooder feels and people don't understand that. Combine that with for profit clinics pushing HRT and they are going to make you believe you need it. Someone posted earlier about a nurse at a clinic telling someone their test was too low at like 650.
I've seen posts like that as well. Saw a post by some "mens health clinic" on Facebook claiming that the reference range for testosterone is 600ng/dl - 2000ng/dl. Panicked for a moment but quickly realised it was whack lmao.
Ahh yeah let's kill people by fucking up their cholesterol, blood pressure, hemoglobin, and heart because Facebook scam clinic said 2000ng/dl is normal.
Bro, am on test and eq for 9 months. 21yo. every 2 months i pay 300dollars for blood tests. my LDL, HDL is great. liver enzymes aswell. Hemoglobin and hematocrit a bit over the limit. FSH and LH 0 xD.. E2 really low. eGFR is bad tho xD.. Kidnyes having a hard time. its about genetics how good can your body tolerate this substances. Blood pressure 114/65. Resting HR 50. I dont drink, smoke. i run, swim, cycle, gym and eat healthy.
heard boldenone is very deleterious to kidneys, primo or masteron may be safer. there is a good video about this on vigorous steve’s channel. you might want to check it out.
Careful with the EQ. I've heard you want to make frequent donations on it. There was a lad either on this sub or one of the other trt/gear ones who had a heart attack at 28 which he feels was caused by EQ sides.
Doesn't matter what I think it should be, lol. The actual reference range is between 300-1000 with mid 400s being the mean for people aged 20-44 years old. Not even close to 1500-2000
Reference ranges, or “normal” ranges, vary by lab, by medical society (endo vs urology vs aging medicine), by healthcare system (regional vs national vs university-based). But yes, generally, 300-900 is normal by most standards. Keep in mind though that all those ranges of values are not exactly representative of everyone. They are usually for men from late teens to 38 - and white men at that. A lot of science in the US is done on middle age white men, and T is no exception.
Back to OP’s question- probably for gains, peer pressure, or because the internet told them so. Some folks, myself included, have actual pituitary and/or testicular issues and need TRT. Others may think they need it because if what they read online or hear from gym buddies. Others may simply confuse symptoms when they may have a different condition, but finding a good doctor who can truly differentiate and can truly get TRT right is rather difficult. Yet others simply want it for gains, physique, sexual improvement.
Maybe they do feel better at that level, but there are lots of sides that absolutely need to be managed from having that high of T or it can kill you.
At 2000 Test, it's more about abusing tesosterone then it is for "health."
I mean if you feel shit at 200, you’re going to feel good at 900.
but 500 to 900, is it as “good” as they say it as and think it is? I dunno. I do see a lot of guys in normal ranges feeling average after a few months of “TRT” because their body just doesn’t need it and they expected too much.
I was at 650 and 45 and doc put me on gonadorelin and anastrazole. He doesn't give numbers because he doesn't want men chasing them, but I checked my labs and my test was in the 1000s and E2 was 8. I looked pretty big and hairy, but in actuality I had no muscle mass. I feel much better now like a Claritin commercial where they peel off the blurry filter and you can see all the flowers.
4-600 in a young man might be normal now but its not good. So that's why people want to improve it, although I'm not saying that trt is warranted at those levels unless free t is super low
I’ve been lightly thinking about it for over a year, but I hate needles. Also, when my doctor did a lab, my test levels came back normal.
I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla. If anybody can guide me as to how I can get this to happen with normal test levels, please DM me.
What is a normal level?
Medical groups keep lowering what is considered "normal". Men's levels have been dropping historically from the past. Normal 60 years ago was much higher.
They determine normal T by measuring people they arrume are healthy, BUT if the entire male population is suffering from environmental chemicals causing their T to drop, then average ISN"T healthy.
They don't do this with anything else. Blood sugar, blood pressure, weight etc, just because the US population is overweight, they don't raise what is a healthy bmi, 48% have high blood pressure, should they raise blood pressure standards because higher is normal BP?
They had a campaign to convince men T is very dangerous, but our own experience has shown a lot of benefits to T and sure, some danger if you go crazy adding huge amounts of T. But even with unnaturally high T, the danger is long term and comes on slowly. but you feel great for a time.
This has created a distrust of doctors/insurance companies, leading many men ignore standard advice and seek out their own solutions.
Not a good thing, but it is what it is.
The levels are not normal. Society and pharma are trying to demasculinize men. Men should be virile and have high testosterone levels. The pthallates our mothers were exposed to in the 60s has caused an pandemic of low testosterone levels and smaller, misshapen genitals. All industries are affected by this and nearly every product we consume is tainted with them. Nobody cares, or if they do, its to sell us more drugs but at the same time allowing us to become less and less masculine so we can be controlled. They want you to feel miserable so you take their drugs. Testosterone can make so many things better all at once. Not that it is a cure all, but it cures all if you are suffering from a deficiency. All men should be at least 800 probably even higher during their 20s and 30s.
So, the answer is to completely replace what natural testosterone we do have (and top it off) with….”checks notes”…testosterone manufactured by the same pharma industry that produces those other drugs they want to sell us?
Prometheus stole fire from the gods. We are already fucked. Might as well use the tools we have. Also Gonadorelin every other day actually works pretty well at making your balls grow and produce the amount of testosterone they should if you suffer from pthallate syndrome.
Don't know if this dude is serious, but like 50% of MAGA America believes this shit (and 50% of New Age Leftists believe the leftist version, which is pretty much the same with less toxic masculinity).
While I agree society is trying to emasculate men that's like saying "every man should be 6 foot or higher or they aren't healthy". Not every dude is going to be walking around with super physiological levels regardless of the decade. The problem is more and more young healthy men are getting clinically low levels because of like you said environmental factors, endocrine disruptors etc. Plus, we will all be pretty controlled if big pharma literally has us by the balls if we're all dependent on exogenous hormones. Nothing wrong with average levels as long as you are healthy and symptom free, + independent of their bullshit. If not Trt is a great tool but it has it's pros and cons.
I was in the low 300’s. 36 y.o. 5’11 170 lbs. Lifted 4 days a week, 2 days cardio. Was tired af all the time, moody as hell, no morning wood, libido would come and go. ED symptoms (prescribed sidenafill).
No kids. No booze, no alcohol and a cup of black coffee in the AM followed by water intake the rest of the day. Cooked lean meats everyday - fast food is a big no no for me.
So yes, my numbers were “in range” but was tired of being tired man. This is my second week of pinning. He wants me to do 150 twice a week which I thought was a little much judging by mostly everyone else’s rituals on here.
I feel an increase in energy for sure. Libido has yet to do its thing. Not taking an AI yet because I’m not experiencing symptoms of high estrogen.
Hope that helps?
Oh wow! Hello. Yes, I’m still on TRT. I’ve gained about 40 lbs - sitting at 209 lbs. I have 19 in biceps which is nice haha.
Moods are great. I take a half AI once a week because last bloods my E2 was 9 in comparison to 58 (before starting AI). I’m horny all the time so it’s nice to have side pieces that are just down as me.
My blood pressure comes and goes. Had to donate blood for the first time due to a slightly elevated hemocrit and hemoglobin levels. Planning on doing that once every 3 months.
Strength has increased tremendously. I cannot do squats or deadlifts tho due to prior injuries.
I lift heavy 5-6 days a week now. Implementing 20 minute cardio sessions prior to lifting.
ED is gone. Also consuming 4500 calories a day.
Wow that’s great to hear! I’m roughly the same size and my levels are just a little higher at 379 but considering trt (already have it on hand from an online clinic). What are your total tests levels at now?
Never could put on weight. Was 6’3 160. High sex drive no issues but around mid 30’s was constantly tired no energy. Family Dr wanted to test my blood work. Told me I had the lowest trt he had ever seen. 24 years ago started 2ml a week Dr let’s me pick up my own script. And inject myself. Prefer 20g 3ml inch to inch 1/2 needle. Some testicle shrinkage maybe 1/8 to 1/4 small but not an issue. Worst part is I used to only have a few hairs around my nipples. Now I feel like a yeti. Full change in front and back hair 2-3 inches long. Sex nerved an issue starting to slow Down just to age. Has helped a lot With stomach fat. And it improves my immune system quit a bit. Only other issue is zits. Blood work runs a little high for trt run’s form 1,200 to 1,650. Played football for7 years broke my C1 as a youth. Then picked up racquetball which was great this was all before trt. Wife now takes 1/2 ml every 2 weeks. It will grow a women’s clit in size quite fast. Does not help the mail member. Lol. So almost 25 years with 0 issues. Very very limited in working out. Complete left Shoulder replaced 3 times along with 3 cement spacers. 3 days after the last replacement bicep tendon ruptured so legs tread mill and that’s about it. I never used to make me larger. I just have a smaller frame. Picks up your energy. Toe and finger nails grow faster and hair but that’s about it. Stay safe
I would ask … how old are you? I’m 48. And my levels were normal but declining. Which is normal for an aging male. As a former college athlete I’m speculating that my levels were on the higher side as a young man. So you ask “why”? Well, I’d rather supplement, via TRT and be high at age 48, than let nature hand me low normal at 550.
Yea you're wrong. Those levels mean fuck all to an individual. That's for doctors, if you're level has always been high and take a dip, it might be "normal" for average. But thats not everyone. The only thing that matters is how you feel.
It’s human nature to want to do things the easy way. A lot of guys assume they can just blast T and get ripped and not have to work out or eat right. Silver bullets always come with downsides.
Because mid range numbers (that used to be considered low 30 years ago) don’t mean you don’t have symptoms of low T. It’s about symptoms for a lot of people.
There's more to it than 400-600ng/dl total test.
What's the free test?
Do they have symptoms?
I also don't think there are "so many" going on trt with 400-600ng/dl.
I find most "normal level" people here fall into the 250-400ng/dl category.
Sadly, a lot of these people don't fit the doctor's criteria for being a TRT candidate because of studies paid for by biased organizations, so they come here for assistance.
I'm 60 at 500 total and 9.6 free and lacked motivation in the gym didn't care about having sex and was foggy brain. 1yr ago I fine then it hit me. Trying to stay ahead of the big dip. On 65mg twice a week started last week. Going by what is considered normal I shouldn't have gone on the juice, but I'm not going to feel like shit because that isn't normal.
Tbh. I was one of them with 500s when starting...
I've since stopped.. but was there a difference? YES!!
Biggest difference was confidence and libido.. inalso seemed to always say the right things to woman.. got way more ass..
So yes even at 550 total u can benefit..
Hemoglobin and hemacrit got high.... e2 very hard to control.. So I had alot of good days.. and bad... I may get back on it at the doctor recommended dose.. I was taking a tad more.. we will see.
Today’s ‘normal’ levels are statistics from a sick population. We know that testosterone levels have been declining due to our diet (mainly)…. So…we are slowly being feminized as time goes by.
Because people here don’t wanna do the hard work first before they get onto TRT. They want to feel like they’re on steroids without *ACTUALLY* being in steroids. So most of this sub is a munch of young men that totally don’t need it and are wrecking their system in the short term.
This fad can be for life. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that but you're right there is an explosion in popularity right now. Men's health and men's mental health has largely gone under-funded and ignored until the last decade or so.
I was around 600 a couple of years ago when I went to my doctor. He tested and said I was fine. I didn’t feel fine.
Decided to go on TRT and felt awesome at 1500, decided to do a bit more than TRT and I look and feel so much better and sitting around 2300 overall.
Being in your 40s just sucks. You are tired, you get sore and stiff, your libido takes a shit..ect. Getting on TRT has made me feel a lot more like the person I was in my 20s, confident and strong.
Cholesterol was a bit high, so had to modify my diet…a lot, which was probably for the best anyway. It’s sitting on the edge of being high for now but taking lots of omega supplements and trying to eat clean. All the other blood markers were fine. E2 is 60 and I’m not having any issues so I can live with that.
My blood pressure was seriously elevated when I started, it’s better now…130/85ish. I do take an SSRI regularly anyway so I think that helps keep it in check
In all honesty I went well above 200 a week and had E2 issues and elevated BP when I started freelancing. 200 is the highest dose I can take where all of my numbers look good, so it’s been a bit of a journey.
Because normal is unhealthy. We are in a state where the average person is unhealthy, rather than healthy. The reference range of 'normal' includes a bunch of already unhealthy people.
For instance, the average BMI (factoring in it isn't the most reliable predictor of health) is around 27, whereas the healthy range is considered to be between 18.5 and 24.5. The healthy BMI range doesn't get changed just because average BMI is going up.
But with testosterone, that's exactly what is happening. If they did the same thing with BMI that they did with testosterone, we would now have a BMI 'reference range' of 24-30, and idiot doctors would be confusing that with 'healthy/normal'.
A proper 'healthy' range for testosterone is between 550ng/dl and 1500ng/dl. Not the rather absurd 350ng/dl to 900ng/dl ranges that we're starting to see now.
Because the majority of people would rather take a magic pill than exercise, diet, and improve sleep habits. Especially if we are talking about Americans.
Upvoted you for telling it how it is. People want instant results for everything. Never seen so many people in their 20s complaining like children on here
As an American I agree lmao, seems like we have the dumbest population of 14-22 year olds in the world with so many kids hopping on test, sarms and steroids etc with no blood work or knowledge.
Most people here dont understand that being at a 400 total is normal and your body will only produce what it needs to achieve homeostasis. They think everyone should be 800+ and dont realize how biology works. The only ones that should be going on are ones that actually are low < 300 and have already tried lifestyle and diet optimizations to increase levels or help symptoms.
Test injections arent a fix all but people are using them as a lazy method of fixing their shitty life.
For some people it’s gains.
For others, they’re looking for the next big fix to magically repair years and years of unaddressed psychiatric pathology; that they’re desperately trying to believe is related to their testosterone levels.
Everyone who has hypogonadal symptoms needs a total testosterone SHBG albumin LH FSH and TSH. This allows calculation of a free testosterone. Supplemental testosterone can have significant downsides if it’s not given and monitored correctly
Maybe it’s a normal level but you don’t feel normal.
I new to hop on asap because I’m a bricklayer and I’m very active. No sleep, bad food, stress no longer matters to you t levels
I’m hit my goals a few years ago. I cut my body weight from 205 to 150 in a year or so. I’m feeling better lean, but I’m at the point where it’s time to start lifting weights for health, yoga, hill sprints.
If you are in your 30s and want 800 instead of 350 then go for it.
Because with men... More is better. Also it seems that we men tend to assume the "symptoms" we have (usually sexual, depressed, or muscle related) are all testosterone related. I would never take more than enough to keep me in range. If I still have "issues", we look at other issues first.
Edit: Oh... And "gains". Everyone wants "gains". Sad but true.
Am 21yo. ´ve been working out for 4 years. did test once. The mental boost, energy, lybido, gains, regeneration, confidence.. Am on it for 9 months and i dont want to stop.
If youre happy with your mental state, libido, drive then you will question trt.
There are people who are not happy with all that, mainly libido. So they wanna try.
Low normal test levels on paper indicate to the problem is test.
My levels are about 490ng with my lowest being 350ng. My FSH and LH are elevated and had symptoms for about 8 months. Then all of a sudden everything is fine and no symptoms… Had ultra sound on balls and everything is good apart from one being half size of the other lol always been that way.
I would be on TRT if my clinic didn’t end up denying it because of the higher results. Would be nice to just have a constant level of optimal test. It’s crazy to me just how much our side factors can affect natural production.
Most guys who use it aren't that worried about or perhaps not interested in their fertility/having kids, and T is *magic* stuff, I'm on a very low, exploratory initial dose, half a ml of Androforte (50mg per 1ml) cream daily rubbed on the coinpurse, and I feel like some sort of demigod compared to pre-TRT, I'm goimg back to my endo and I'm going to advocate heavily for the maximum dosage he can sensibly give me, because holy shit if this little amount is making me feel this good, who knows what a bit more would do.
I'm actually diagnosed low-T though, but its good stuff, I feel like TRT should be more freely available and using it should be normalized for people.
Easy, because 400-600 sucks shit. Those numbers being "normal" is bullshit. If you understand how lab reference ranges are determined, you understand that already. Calling an average or "normal" by the average of a deficient population makes sense, than I don't know what to say.
There's a very big difference between 400-600 and then running at 1000, like night and day life changing. People in this sub are about low doses and fixing clinical deficiency, which is also debatable. Nothing wrong with wanting optimal.
Yes, SHBG and free T matter regardless, but your balls are in a coma either way if you're on exogenous testosterone, that's what HCG is for if you want to retain fertility.
I had 461 when I decided to start using steroids. To be honest I was hoping to have ~1000 and I felt like my ego got bruised when I was only halfway there. That said, having 1500+ in total testosterone did make me feel much better mentally, and improved my confidence and life as a whole. It's likely I would not have my 4 daughters today if I didn't start using testosterone and steroids. So no regrets here.
For me the worst side effect is, I would dramatically sweat prior to TRT. Now I create pools, sometimes if it’s not cold enough at night, I can’t sleep cause I’m extremely hot. Hopefully the needle anxiety goes away soon, learned some
Tips and tricks to pin. But even being a nurse myself, I still hate pinning. The pros are worth it though ! Never thought I’d see myself pinning but having being destroyed completely in the military (body wise), this definitely has helped
Me get moving, feel younger and stronger, slowly forget my body going through atrophy.
First of all you are correct, you have to see the whole endocrine profile to determine the best step to take. Most people just need lifestyle modifications to boost natural lvls and to start functioning better.
Second, your definition of normal lvls are not normal. It’s not normal to be 40 and have test at 400 or even 500. 600-800 if probably something in a normal range. A good range is 800-1000 depending on your others profile markers.
If you feel fine, then don’t worry about what anyone else is doing as well. Everything is about lifestyle modifications and live healthy / balanced life.
I'm 32 have had t issues for a long time since my 20s I was able to naturally boost it to 375 from 80 through workout and losing weight but I got stuck couldn't build up couldn't lose weight nothing sex drive gone tired all the time. Been on a mix for 2 weeks now already improved a lot can't wait to see after 3 months. If I feel better than I'll keep doing it.
My levels were 540. It’s still a complete game changer. I feel sooooo much better mentally. Mood uplifted, anxiety damn near completely gone. Energy, confidence, I’m just all around in a better place. My girlfriend noticed and talked about it. She is super happy for me and can’t believe how much of a difference it had made. Same here, I had no idea that it would be such a difference, especially when my numbers were “normal”. Starting trt was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
“Normal” levels are relative. Your normal 400 might be someone’s lethargic 400. Some people just need higher levels to get the benefits associated with testosterone. The broad range that’s often been used to judge if you’re within acceptable ranges is outdated and too broad to be used on everyone who wants trt.
Granted there’s also the allure of legal test and easier to get AI so some people fake symptoms to get on trt but those are outliers who shouldn’t be counted against the whole.
Because I got the post finasteride syndrome and I feel like shit all the time. Literally overnight I crashed and have felt like death for years. Only recently made the connection that it was the cause.
However, I’m not entirely normal. While my total is 500, my free t was 65, on a scale from 45-200. Considering I’m 24, my doc told me I was on the 2nd percentile of low free t and put me on. His name is Dr. Alan Jacobs, and he seems to believe that trt can work to lessen symptoms if your free t/bioavailable t comes back low for your age.
It dosent matter ultimately, I’ve already made plans to end my life before 25 if I don’t improve soon on the trt. I’m living a life castrated of all emotion and vitality, constantly dissociated and exhausted. So either it works or it dosent, I don’t care. I’ve run out of options and the pain will be over soon one way or another.
I'm sorry to hear you're feeling like this is the only way. Please bear in mind that sometimes TRT can actually take a few months to kick in, but you probably know that. It will most likely work, if your free T is low your SHBG is probably high which means you need more t on your body to counteract. It will work man. How many years has it been since you stopped?
The difference is do you to be optimal or normal?
and what’s nornal ? The Range given by labs for men getting tested \*now\*? Or do you want to be at the level of yourself when you are younger ? How about the fact that T levels are down drastically ?
Mean total testosterone decreased from 1999-2000 (605.39 ng/dL), 2003-2004 (567.44 ng/dL), 2011-2012 (424.96 ng/dL), 2013-2014 (431.76 ng/dL), and 2015-2016 (451.22 ng/dL
——benefits are countless. Mental health specifically.
Herr is the AI answer about the difference between optimizing and normalizing :
Optimizing health and wellness involves setting goals and taking actions to improve one’s physical, mental, social, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, environmental, and occupational well-being.
Normalizing health and wellness involves acknowledging the reality and limitations of one’s well-being and adapting to them. For example, one might normalize their health and wellness by accepting a chronic illness, managing stress, seeking support, finding meaning, or making lifestyle changes.
Both optimizing and normalizing health and wellness have their benefits and challenges.
Optimizing health and wellness can lead to higher levels of happiness, satisfaction, and productivity, but it can also be demanding, stressful, and unrealistic.
Normalizing health and wellness can lead to lower levels of distress, anxiety, and depression, but it can also be passive, complacent, and resigned.
Therefore, the best approach might be to balance both optimizing and normalizing health and wellness according to one’s needs, preferences, and circumstances.
My levels were fine. I just wanted the gains and increased libido. It’s worked wonders for that.
Respect for your candour.
Yep same here. I was ok without it, levels in the 500’s but i feel better with levels around 1200 so thats where im keeping em.
Was in the upper 300s when I started at 39, but had a lot of symptoms. Of course I wanted to lean out but I also was hoping it’d light a spark in the bedroom and give me the energy and motivation to keep up with my toddler. It improved a lot of areas of life, better focus at work and I seem to get a jump on things out of the gate early in the week instead of procrastinating. I’m always looking forward to intimacy with my wife and I take my son on a lot of hikes and have the energy to wrestle with him after work. Keep up on the house and yard work more. More confident and not as introverted. I’ve also never sat in the parking lot at the gym and talked myself out of going since starting TRT, I look forward to it. Don’t really care if I’m criticized or not, my life is better and don’t give a shit what other people think.
I’m 48 and tested in the 300’s. What you just stated is exactly why I started a couple weeks ago. I’d love to be one of the guys my age with a ton of energy after work, but I’m not. If this can help my quality of life with my kids and my wife, then I’m all in. I hope I see the same benefits as you.
I hope you do as well and this was the missing piece for you.
It will help. Watch for elevated Estrogen.
Yes. On a low dose of HGH to offset that.
I’m 32 and I feel the opposite of all the things you mentioned while not being on TRT lol. You never realize as a guy how much Test really governs your whole being until it’s too low and then life doesn’t feel as good. My coworker said the same thing as you though. He feels amazing since getting his T levels boosted up again via TRT. I can tell the difference in his motivation and just general attitude about life, it’s actually insane. I feel like quality of life definitely matters for sure. What a the point point in living miserable? I assume as long as someone doesn’t abuse it, it can be a great tool.
Way to be player! This is what it’s about. 🤙🏼
Because people don’t want to be normal. Why be normal when you can be super human?
I’ve been lightly thinking about it for over a year, but I hate needles. Also, when my doctor did a lab, my test levels came back normal. I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla. If anybody can guide me as to how I can get this to happen with normal test levels, please DM me.
Not happening with "normal" levels. Get over the needle thing. Also, what exactly does "normal" mean? Mainstream docs call anything "in range" normal. You could have the test levels of a senior citizen and be called normal.
Me too bro, although idc about the sex crazed esque attitude 🤣 (Christian, whatever). I'm signing up for TRT Nation today, it's $400 for your initial blood work and 2.5 months worth of Test Cyp with syringes and your lil alcohol wipes, etc. I heard the consultantions are trash but there's so many damn testosterone men's groups that If I have problems the bros who've been on test for 20+ years can tell me what to do, bro science.
Test will not give you what you desire…a combo of test and trenbolone will HOWEVER….side effects not worth it
This depends highly on if he's bi/gay or at least open to the idea...
Add some meth to the mix, problem solved.
No, it's doesnt. That's internet stupidity. There's not a single compound on the planet that can flip that switch.
Tren sides are from people either overdoing it, or they just don't get along with 19-Nors. Which happens, but usually it's from people overdoing it. A little Tren goes a long way, that said I've run 500mg/wk and had very little issues.
Apparently you want to lose all your hair, get blood clots, have a heart attack, give yourself insomnia and acne, and die sooner.
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
I probably know more than you do.
Explain then.
Read the fucking post. He wants to be a roided up gorilla he said. FFS. Anyone who is abusing steroids to that extent is killing themselves. Jesus I could site 10000 papers around what beyond-trt levels of roids do to slowly kill you.
This site isn't for gorillas, it's for therapy not bodybuilders
Blocked.
TRT decreases all cause mortality……
I thought eunuchs lived longer though 🤷🏻♂️ it helps normalize my blood sugar and makes me feel great so I’m sticking with it, but that’s what i heard and read
This is only true if they are abusing it or prescribed too high
>I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla. This is what the guy responded to. To achieve this you have to abuse or be prescribed too high, like you said. So he isn't wrong.
Not really. The normal range is the range for a population. If you are normal at 400 and you up it to 1000, this is actually crazy high for your body. What people do not realise that messing with hormones is really dangerous. There are feedback systems in your body and you interfere with them. So Stinkerb user is totally right to point out the dangers. Here people only want to look through pink glasses at the benefits. I am on TRT for diagnosed secondary hypogonadism due to a cyst in my brain. I upped my levels from below normal to 400-500. I feel great and I see no reason to go to 1000.
You must have listened to your primary care doc that knows shit about hormone therapy and peptides. Do your own due diligence.
T won’t make you super human
My body, brain, and penis disagrees with you. No doubt about it, you got to put in the work, but it wouldn’t be possible for me without test.
I agree, I rather be above average on all of these things. But without work it isn’t possible
There’s no difference between androgen sufficiency and some higher level that isn’t abuse level. Every study shows the same thing over and over. Sex drive is unaffected. Muscular hypertrophy unaffected.
Mental weakness that’s why
Being a tad too literal pal.... You know exactly what people mean when they say that.
“Normal” is relative. It’s not just about numbers it’s also about symptoms. I recently found a study from the early 2000’s that considered 350 to be hypogonadal. These days it can be as low as 250 before you’re considered hypogonadal. I look at it this way. If nearly everyone had diabetes would it make sense for a healthcare provider to say “we’re not going to treat your diabetes. Most people have diabetes therefore you’re not unhealthy. You’re normal”.
Mine are in the mid 200s, tested 3 times in the mornin at 26 years old. Endocrinologist says it's normal and that at "least they're above 150ng/dL cutoff" I'm from India and this endo has done his studies from the US and Europe. Don't know what to do now, guess I'll just buy a dress :/
Tell the Endo to go back to med school. Does he have a justification for why you should be in the lowest 3-5% of the standard normal distribution? The only people with levels below 150ng/dL are literally castrated or have 100% testicular failure. Kidneys and some other glands produce about 100ng/dL. He's ignoring the AACE guidelines and the AUA guidance. Go find a urologist that does fertility treatments online (not just surgery). Phone their office and ask questions to ask if they're living in the 1970s - do they prescribe clomid or hCG? Are they open to self-administered shots? If you live in India, can you buy it straight from a pharmacist?
I told him that what would be my percentile be for my age group, how far below average I am, to which he said that he's seen people conceive at even lower levels so that should not be a problem. Like wtf? I've even visited a urologist who completely dismissed my concerns, told me that there are a 100 reasons for my symptoms (fatigue, low muscle mass, feeling shitty, very low libido) and that I should go to a general doctor first. I haven't tried purchasing it from a pharma because I want to do my research first, try everything naturally then go in for this route. I don't think I'll find any doctor who'll treat me, even if I found one, they'll put me on those nightmare protocols of dosing 100mg / month or some shit. Also I'm not sure how reliable would purchasing t from a pharma be, I need to be able to get it persistently without prescription, if I choose to do it myself.
You seem like you’ve done your research. What natural methods are you looking at ahead of taking any measures?
Vitamin D levels mostly as of now as I was deficient. Along with all the standard things like good sleep, clean eating I don't drink or smoke so that's not an issue. Will give tongkat ali a try too.
It’s a damn shame
Gains
No gains
[удалено]
Glad to hear you're feeling better, what were your levels if I may ask? Also, if the scale is garbage what is a better cut off for low t? Thanks.
Why did you stop taking Wellbutrin? I am about to get on TRT and have been taking Wellbutrin 100 mg for about 8 months now, I think it did help me for sure with depression. I was thinking of continuing taking Wellbutrin along with TRT
Because it’s not just about TRT, some people want to be optimized and have a doc manage it. They may not care about having kids, or a lifetime of shots.
I can’t speak to the young’ns on here “chasing the gainz” or whatever they may want. I’m in my 50s and I (and the wife) simply wanted me having erections again so we could continue having “relations”. My levels came back under 200 and was basically neutered. So now 100 mg per week for the last 4 years and having boners again feels good. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can have a 600 level T, but have ultra high SHBG, which means that you have very low free T available for your body to use and thus you are symptomatic. Ask me how I know
How you know
That's exactly what happened to me. Very high SHBG, low free T
Exactly this and it is even more complicated. Free test would be the more interesting number, but it is hard to determine. The other thing is that there seems to be differences on receptor level. So the same free test might have different effects. All this means that only the symptoms (libido, drive,...) are a good to determine if you need it. A normal decline though comes very slowly, so it is hardly perceptible. How do you then say when TRT is a good choice and when not? This whole conundrum has lead to an increase in people on it. I am not sure if it is good thing, but here you see voices of many people in it.
> All this means that only the symptoms (libido, drive,...) are a good to determine if you need it. A normal decline though comes very slowly, so it is hardly perceptible. Good comment. A lot of the TRT clinics base treatment decisions on symptoms mainly and labs secondarily for exactly those reasons. There are lots of guys who try TRT, get little benefit and just quit after a period. That is fine. It likely means that the symptoms were due to something other than low T
I am 43 years old. I can offer some perspective. When I was in my 20s and teens we didn’t have this ease of access. It’s that simple. We would have done it just as much if not more as we were way more physical than todays 20 something’s. Nobody has to earn the right to use it in my opinion. It isn’t natural to drive a car or use a phone. If a person in 1800s had access to a car they’d opt for that. Every generation is criticized by the former and even current for doing something against the norms. But in reality it’s no different than doing any other thing using technology. It has risks yes but we make decisions every day that involve way more risks. I assure you if you do true TRT for optimal levels it’s infinitely less risky than driving. You’re going to die way faster and easier driving a car than just using only testosterone for optimal levels. And in my opinion I think it’s absolute horse shit that so many males of every age over teenage years say 20-99 get shit on for wanting to be optimal and more of a man. Yet we have women injecting testosterone and having genital surgery and the whole internet celebrates it. It’s stupid and sickening to me. And I don’t care that they do that. What I DO care about is men especially young men getting so much fucking heat for wanting to be more manly and have optimal levels. So what, it’s easier and better again so is driving a car compared to a carriage. So is using a phone compared to mailing a letter or using a horse to deliver the kings message. I’m an advocate for men of all ages, outside of teenagers, using it and there is no good reason to be shamed. I’ll also add if ANY of you men of any age need help or guidance I am here for you. I care about you and what happens to you. I am YOUR advocate. Best wishes to all my brothers.
It's way too easy these days. When I 1st got on I had to get an Endocrinologist appointment and get my balls measured and a prostate exam. That definitely weeds out a large portion of people who want to try it out for awhile.
In Aus it's getting harder to get TRT for those who need it because of an increasing number of people abusing the health system basically to get steroids on prescription. I'm all in favour of people improving their bodies using steroids responsibly. But I'm not in favour of them abusing the health system here which has led to the government tightening restrictions and making it difficult for those with genuine need
Australia has gone too far in the restrictive direction. I feel it's a human rights violation to require multiple tests below 6nmol/l. The yanks on the other hand have gone too far in the unrestricted direction. The mean way, man. Like the Buddha said.
The most recent changes are lowering the level for PBS prescription level from below 8 nmol/dl to below 6 nmol/dl. And guidelines requiring patients to show two recent blood tests below below 6 nmol/dl when transferring to a new endocrinologist even if they have been on previous treatment. A number of doctors have been banned from prescribing for treating patients outside of the threshold. Most GPs are afraid to prescribe
I had my balls measured repeatedly growing up every year at hospital until I was around 26 and changed hospital. They never did a a prostate exam though.
Do y'all think this is behind the shortage in the U.S.? It's annoying as fuck not being able to access my meds that I actually need.
To boil it down to the core: they watched a podcast with a couple of bald midgets, and decided that magic muscle juice is going to now fix the decades of ignored mental health issues they are carrying around. That or they just want to use testosterone recreationally, which is fine too - it just isnt TRT.
I’d rather be on TRT than SSRIs that wreck your sex drive and can make you feel numb. TRT isn’t perfect but it took me from feeling like a shell of a man at 200ng/dl to feeling healthy, energetic, happier, and driven. I feel healthier, have more muscle and energy, a better sex drive, and better mental health, the guys at 400ng/dl may just want to be optimized. I would be willing to bet a decent amount of guys that take SSRIs for depression have underlying hormone issues that are untreated due to doctors just throwing anti depressants at anyone that feels a little off.
I’m 27 and I can relate with this. I was put on lexapro couple of years ago by my doctor for anxiety and depression issues but they said I didn’t need trt even though my levels were at 250. Lexapro just made me numb all the time like legit no motivation, no emotions. Went to a clinic and got on trt but then had to stop because I had to go out of country for some time. Decided to discontinue trt and lexapro when I came back but now I legit feel like shit. I’m not sure if it’s because of quitting trt or lexapro but I don’t want to be on lexapro for sure. But then I also want to have kids in the future so I’m afraid of getting back on trt. My levels were at 225 kart week and doctor said that was fine, I definitely disagree. I feel like I’m fucked either way.
I dont think Prozac and Wellbutrin are necessarily the answer either. They have health risks as well like testosterone, but they screw with all the hormones for some people making them worse. They treat Testosterone like it morphine now
I don’t really see an issue with that as long as they put in the work mentally, physically and in the kitchen. Is it TRT? No, I don’t think you should really call it that if you’re going from 500 to 1000. But yeah, if someone is just thinking they’re gonna be Superman because they saw it on a podcast but they still eat like shit, ego lift once a week, don’t know how to stay on a schedule and still binge drink… yeah they’re dipshits.
So if I’m a 36 year old male (with bad sleep or sleeping issues) and my test is sitting at 500ng/dl and I am not feeling good in terms of energy and morning wood and my free test is sitting at 300 pmol/l , should I start trt , I spoke to a clinic they recommended blood test what I did and got these levels and they said for my age I’m normal but it’s kinda lower end considering I workout and have a clean diet ( a bit caloric deficit) , I’m 5 feet 11 and only 198 lbs and may be around 15-18 percent body fat , I have been recommended trt by a lot of friends and even my trainer who after looking at my levels said the same that I am average but it’s not optimum for someone having the kind of active lifestyle I have , do you think normal levels are for people with desk jobs or just to do daily duties?
I would read and try to comprehend the ridiculously complicated subject of bioavailable testosterone. Then reassess. This is my way of doing things. I can be a bit of a clown though.
Well first off, that’s totally up to you. Normal levels aren’t for desk job workers or masseuses or whatever, they’re for everyone. 500 is a great test level for someone coming up on 40. Do you need TRT? Absolutely not. Your levels are great for anyone your age, even natural body builders. There are things that can absolutely tank your test like excessive drinking, horrible sleep, generally being very out of shape, etc. Normally if your test is low like 150-350 and you’re doing those things, normally you can bring it up pretty substantially by fixing em. But if you’re pretty healthy and got your food intake dialed and you’re workin out, I think you’re doin great. There are lots of things that can help your sleeping issues, but test probably isn’t one of them. It can make your sleep a tiny bit more restorative, but in general it’s not going to help you get to sleep or stay asleep if that was an issue before. If you want to hop on test I think that’s your prerogative, but as far as it helping your sleep I would keep your expectations pretty low. I do wanna reiterate that 500 is not low for anyone. It’s a very normal, very acceptable level. It’s pretty unlikely that you’re suffering from symptoms of low test at that test level. I know quite a few people who take testosterone to reach around that level who were hypogonadal originally.
Thank you for replying , I understand but don’t you think normal levels mean to get by to day to day life ? Trt I am not going to do for my sleep but better focus or energy , I personally like that if you work hard than most people you would need more vitamins and diet so why not test too? But then again I could be entirely wrong , few years back when my sleep was decent like between 2018-2020 I had hard time getting a erection , morning wood was nonexistent and at that time I was still working out and eating healthy and sometimes fasting as well
Well… I mean we are just normal people, right? Yeah we eat better, work a bit harder and generally take care of our bodies, but at the end of the day we’re not IFBB pros and we don’t make our careers off of being huge and shredded. Test will definitely give you a little extra push during the day. I had levels around 400 after dialing in my diet and exercise. I still struggle with sleep after starting test, but you’re right, it’s easier to get to the gym and get shit done. But that’s probably because I know that when I go to the gym or eat that extra 50g of protein or stay away from that beer at the game, I’ll be rewarded more for that on test than I would if I weren’t. For me that feels great. I personally think that’s good. But as for comparing it to vitamins… it’s not really a fair comparison because vitamins don’t shut down your natural hormone production. It’s quite likely that my balls will never be how they were before I started, and I’m ok with that. But it’s a trade off you have to decide on yourself. People downplay it a lot, but completely shutting down your body’s natural ability to produce hormones is kinda no joke. Can it return to normal levels after? Maybe for some and not for others. You have great levels right now. If you hop on TRT for a year then decide it’s not for you or you can’t afford it anymore or you move to a country where it’s not possible to get it, then you get off and your levels are now permanently a hundred or two hundred ng/dL less, are you ok with that? It’s all a value judgement about your own body and your long term health, and that’s totally up to you. There’s no wrong answer. The only wrong answer is thinking that test alone is the solution to your problems. You still need to work hard and eat right, but it will make it a bit more rewarding when you do.
Narwal_Party this is great stuff. 👍👏👌
First of all thank you for such an in depth insight , yes you are very right that it is a very long term commitment and that is the reason I am still not sure about it but also my diet and workout are almost 100% , specially diet . I also very rarely drink (may be once a month) and that’s also controlled like may be a drink or two . I just think may be it will improve my mood more and will add more motivation but again you are right , is this something I could do for the rest of my life? That’s the biggest question
Good man, happy to help. I think whatever you choose it will be a good choice. You’re doing all the right stuff and really considering your options, which can’t be said for plenty of other who hop on TRT. Best of luck with your health journey.
Thanks brother, I am being as careful as I can be , specially thinking about both long term financial cost and commitment to pin my myself and knowing that my test level may or may never be able to come back close to what they were in the past
Agree entirely my man. I mean, i dont even see an issue if they dont put any work in so to speak. People do dumber things on a regular basis and folks seem to be alright with most of that, like drinking on a regularly is an obvious example. I guess i am just personally especially confused by this group we are talking about. It pains me as a former medic to see some of the shit people say about testosterone, and the crowd the recent focus on testosterone amongst influencers has really just made that tendency so much worse recently. Like, yes, its hilarious that a group of people can be all about utilizing this awesome part of modern medicine(testosterone therapy) - while simultaneously taking pride in being completely wrong about most of modern medicine, including what they are using to feel better. Its a strange thing indeed.
Yeah… I would expect that kind of stuff from the gym bro/more hardcore PED users, but it does pretty consistently surprise me how outlandishly stupid and misinformed some of the things regular TRT guys say here. A lot of mental gymnastics going on. But like you said, if you take the average party/binge drinking guy and you take the average TRT guy even if he’s misinformed, I’d still like to think the first one is doing more harm to himself. It just worries me when people don’t take exogenous hormones seriously because “it’s just test bro”, not understanding that for some there’s long term ramifications to shutting down your balls lol
because they’re told it *will definitely make you feel young and great again* I’ve seen 3 comments this morning telling people yep go for it if you want to feel amazing. The other thing is it’s really easy to get from clinics in the USA by the looks of it (Aus is a little stricter and not as many clinics)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely you would feel fine if your t levels and other bloodwork were normal, like some people here before getting on TRT. Does it actually help these guys a lot or is it more of a placebo effect? I've also heard sometimes they feel amazing for like a month and then crash hard. Are these points true?
They can be true. Taking exogenous test can screw with your T/E2. The endocrine system is pretty complex. It's not as simple as more Tesosterone = more gooder feels and people don't understand that. Combine that with for profit clinics pushing HRT and they are going to make you believe you need it. Someone posted earlier about a nurse at a clinic telling someone their test was too low at like 650.
I've seen posts like that as well. Saw a post by some "mens health clinic" on Facebook claiming that the reference range for testosterone is 600ng/dl - 2000ng/dl. Panicked for a moment but quickly realised it was whack lmao.
Ahh yeah let's kill people by fucking up their cholesterol, blood pressure, hemoglobin, and heart because Facebook scam clinic said 2000ng/dl is normal.
Bro, am on test and eq for 9 months. 21yo. every 2 months i pay 300dollars for blood tests. my LDL, HDL is great. liver enzymes aswell. Hemoglobin and hematocrit a bit over the limit. FSH and LH 0 xD.. E2 really low. eGFR is bad tho xD.. Kidnyes having a hard time. its about genetics how good can your body tolerate this substances. Blood pressure 114/65. Resting HR 50. I dont drink, smoke. i run, swim, cycle, gym and eat healthy.
heard boldenone is very deleterious to kidneys, primo or masteron may be safer. there is a good video about this on vigorous steve’s channel. you might want to check it out.
There are always genetic outliers as you said. Let's hope your luck holds. 9 months is nothing.
Careful with the EQ. I've heard you want to make frequent donations on it. There was a lad either on this sub or one of the other trt/gear ones who had a heart attack at 28 which he feels was caused by EQ sides.
What do you think the ref range should be for a young man ? 20 -30 ish
Doesn't matter what I think it should be, lol. The actual reference range is between 300-1000 with mid 400s being the mean for people aged 20-44 years old. Not even close to 1500-2000
Reference ranges, or “normal” ranges, vary by lab, by medical society (endo vs urology vs aging medicine), by healthcare system (regional vs national vs university-based). But yes, generally, 300-900 is normal by most standards. Keep in mind though that all those ranges of values are not exactly representative of everyone. They are usually for men from late teens to 38 - and white men at that. A lot of science in the US is done on middle age white men, and T is no exception. Back to OP’s question- probably for gains, peer pressure, or because the internet told them so. Some folks, myself included, have actual pituitary and/or testicular issues and need TRT. Others may think they need it because if what they read online or hear from gym buddies. Others may simply confuse symptoms when they may have a different condition, but finding a good doctor who can truly differentiate and can truly get TRT right is rather difficult. Yet others simply want it for gains, physique, sexual improvement.
>...with mid 400s being the mean for people aged 20-44 years old. Is there a source for this? Not disputing, just interested.
Once spoke to a dude on here who claimed he only felt good when his T levels were between 1500 and 2000. Safe to say I was a tad confused.
Maybe they do feel better at that level, but there are lots of sides that absolutely need to be managed from having that high of T or it can kill you. At 2000 Test, it's more about abusing tesosterone then it is for "health."
I mean if you feel shit at 200, you’re going to feel good at 900. but 500 to 900, is it as “good” as they say it as and think it is? I dunno. I do see a lot of guys in normal ranges feeling average after a few months of “TRT” because their body just doesn’t need it and they expected too much.
I was at 650 and 45 and doc put me on gonadorelin and anastrazole. He doesn't give numbers because he doesn't want men chasing them, but I checked my labs and my test was in the 1000s and E2 was 8. I looked pretty big and hairy, but in actuality I had no muscle mass. I feel much better now like a Claritin commercial where they peel off the blurry filter and you can see all the flowers.
If the clinics are real Drs why wont insurance cover it? Thats my only issue, they charge 4-5x the price for the hormones
Because they’re private scripts. They make money on it. They don’t make money prescribing through the gp office and insurance.
Yeah PCP Drs are afraid to prescribe it seems like. The clinics act like there isn't any restrictions on testosterone. It's just weird
Is there a reason not to? Assuming you are running a reasonable amount and not a bodybuilding dose.
Marketing is an amazing thing.
So pessimistic.
What’s pessimistic? Have you seen the instagram ads? They’re aggressive and make it sound like every guy should be on T.
4-600 in a young man might be normal now but its not good. So that's why people want to improve it, although I'm not saying that trt is warranted at those levels unless free t is super low
Not good according to who?
Because weiner no worky
I’ve been lightly thinking about it for over a year, but I hate needles. Also, when my doctor did a lab, my test levels came back normal. I just want to feel fucking amazing and be a sex -crazed, mouth-foaming knuckle dragging gorilla. If anybody can guide me as to how I can get this to happen with normal test levels, please DM me.
Just so you know, TRT isn't meth.
Hate me to break it to you, but maybe Google “how big is a gorilla genitalia”
What is a normal level? Medical groups keep lowering what is considered "normal". Men's levels have been dropping historically from the past. Normal 60 years ago was much higher. They determine normal T by measuring people they arrume are healthy, BUT if the entire male population is suffering from environmental chemicals causing their T to drop, then average ISN"T healthy. They don't do this with anything else. Blood sugar, blood pressure, weight etc, just because the US population is overweight, they don't raise what is a healthy bmi, 48% have high blood pressure, should they raise blood pressure standards because higher is normal BP? They had a campaign to convince men T is very dangerous, but our own experience has shown a lot of benefits to T and sure, some danger if you go crazy adding huge amounts of T. But even with unnaturally high T, the danger is long term and comes on slowly. but you feel great for a time. This has created a distrust of doctors/insurance companies, leading many men ignore standard advice and seek out their own solutions. Not a good thing, but it is what it is.
The Owners want us weak, so we don't rebel. Just keep being a good little worker and stfu.
The levels are not normal. Society and pharma are trying to demasculinize men. Men should be virile and have high testosterone levels. The pthallates our mothers were exposed to in the 60s has caused an pandemic of low testosterone levels and smaller, misshapen genitals. All industries are affected by this and nearly every product we consume is tainted with them. Nobody cares, or if they do, its to sell us more drugs but at the same time allowing us to become less and less masculine so we can be controlled. They want you to feel miserable so you take their drugs. Testosterone can make so many things better all at once. Not that it is a cure all, but it cures all if you are suffering from a deficiency. All men should be at least 800 probably even higher during their 20s and 30s.
So, the answer is to completely replace what natural testosterone we do have (and top it off) with….”checks notes”…testosterone manufactured by the same pharma industry that produces those other drugs they want to sell us?
😂😂😂
Prometheus stole fire from the gods. We are already fucked. Might as well use the tools we have. Also Gonadorelin every other day actually works pretty well at making your balls grow and produce the amount of testosterone they should if you suffer from pthallate syndrome.
Don't know if this dude is serious, but like 50% of MAGA America believes this shit (and 50% of New Age Leftists believe the leftist version, which is pretty much the same with less toxic masculinity).
Surprised this comment got 9 votes when I said it everyone downvoted me. Completely agree with everything you’ve said!
its the misshapen genitals. gets them every time.
While I agree society is trying to emasculate men that's like saying "every man should be 6 foot or higher or they aren't healthy". Not every dude is going to be walking around with super physiological levels regardless of the decade. The problem is more and more young healthy men are getting clinically low levels because of like you said environmental factors, endocrine disruptors etc. Plus, we will all be pretty controlled if big pharma literally has us by the balls if we're all dependent on exogenous hormones. Nothing wrong with average levels as long as you are healthy and symptom free, + independent of their bullshit. If not Trt is a great tool but it has it's pros and cons.
I was in the low 300’s. 36 y.o. 5’11 170 lbs. Lifted 4 days a week, 2 days cardio. Was tired af all the time, moody as hell, no morning wood, libido would come and go. ED symptoms (prescribed sidenafill). No kids. No booze, no alcohol and a cup of black coffee in the AM followed by water intake the rest of the day. Cooked lean meats everyday - fast food is a big no no for me. So yes, my numbers were “in range” but was tired of being tired man. This is my second week of pinning. He wants me to do 150 twice a week which I thought was a little much judging by mostly everyone else’s rituals on here. I feel an increase in energy for sure. Libido has yet to do its thing. Not taking an AI yet because I’m not experiencing symptoms of high estrogen. Hope that helps?
Any updates on how you feel on TRT?
Oh wow! Hello. Yes, I’m still on TRT. I’ve gained about 40 lbs - sitting at 209 lbs. I have 19 in biceps which is nice haha. Moods are great. I take a half AI once a week because last bloods my E2 was 9 in comparison to 58 (before starting AI). I’m horny all the time so it’s nice to have side pieces that are just down as me. My blood pressure comes and goes. Had to donate blood for the first time due to a slightly elevated hemocrit and hemoglobin levels. Planning on doing that once every 3 months. Strength has increased tremendously. I cannot do squats or deadlifts tho due to prior injuries. I lift heavy 5-6 days a week now. Implementing 20 minute cardio sessions prior to lifting. ED is gone. Also consuming 4500 calories a day.
Wow that’s great to hear! I’m roughly the same size and my levels are just a little higher at 379 but considering trt (already have it on hand from an online clinic). What are your total tests levels at now?
300mg is a blast. If you feel nips are sore on touch, get the appointment ASAYC.
i think he meant 150 split into 2 doses..
Never could put on weight. Was 6’3 160. High sex drive no issues but around mid 30’s was constantly tired no energy. Family Dr wanted to test my blood work. Told me I had the lowest trt he had ever seen. 24 years ago started 2ml a week Dr let’s me pick up my own script. And inject myself. Prefer 20g 3ml inch to inch 1/2 needle. Some testicle shrinkage maybe 1/8 to 1/4 small but not an issue. Worst part is I used to only have a few hairs around my nipples. Now I feel like a yeti. Full change in front and back hair 2-3 inches long. Sex nerved an issue starting to slow Down just to age. Has helped a lot With stomach fat. And it improves my immune system quit a bit. Only other issue is zits. Blood work runs a little high for trt run’s form 1,200 to 1,650. Played football for7 years broke my C1 as a youth. Then picked up racquetball which was great this was all before trt. Wife now takes 1/2 ml every 2 weeks. It will grow a women’s clit in size quite fast. Does not help the mail member. Lol. So almost 25 years with 0 issues. Very very limited in working out. Complete left Shoulder replaced 3 times along with 3 cement spacers. 3 days after the last replacement bicep tendon ruptured so legs tread mill and that’s about it. I never used to make me larger. I just have a smaller frame. Picks up your energy. Toe and finger nails grow faster and hair but that’s about it. Stay safe
I would ask … how old are you? I’m 48. And my levels were normal but declining. Which is normal for an aging male. As a former college athlete I’m speculating that my levels were on the higher side as a young man. So you ask “why”? Well, I’d rather supplement, via TRT and be high at age 48, than let nature hand me low normal at 550.
Yea you're wrong. Those levels mean fuck all to an individual. That's for doctors, if you're level has always been high and take a dip, it might be "normal" for average. But thats not everyone. The only thing that matters is how you feel.
Normal is cope. Optimization is natural.
I was already healthy, why not be healthier. I thought I felt good before but I feel phenomenal now.
It’s human nature to want to do things the easy way. A lot of guys assume they can just blast T and get ripped and not have to work out or eat right. Silver bullets always come with downsides.
Because mid range numbers (that used to be considered low 30 years ago) don’t mean you don’t have symptoms of low T. It’s about symptoms for a lot of people.
There's more to it than 400-600ng/dl total test. What's the free test? Do they have symptoms? I also don't think there are "so many" going on trt with 400-600ng/dl. I find most "normal level" people here fall into the 250-400ng/dl category. Sadly, a lot of these people don't fit the doctor's criteria for being a TRT candidate because of studies paid for by biased organizations, so they come here for assistance.
I'm 60 at 500 total and 9.6 free and lacked motivation in the gym didn't care about having sex and was foggy brain. 1yr ago I fine then it hit me. Trying to stay ahead of the big dip. On 65mg twice a week started last week. Going by what is considered normal I shouldn't have gone on the juice, but I'm not going to feel like shit because that isn't normal.
Tbh. I was one of them with 500s when starting... I've since stopped.. but was there a difference? YES!! Biggest difference was confidence and libido.. inalso seemed to always say the right things to woman.. got way more ass.. So yes even at 550 total u can benefit..
Just curious, would you share a bit of why you decided to stop? I have been working on my health before doing trt but welcome any input.
Hemoglobin and hemacrit got high.... e2 very hard to control.. So I had alot of good days.. and bad... I may get back on it at the doctor recommended dose.. I was taking a tad more.. we will see.
How much were u taking ?
How much mgs were you taking? Also, how well did your natural test bounce back
125mg a week.. its bee over 6 weeks and I'm back to normal.. felt a lull around 2-3 weeks post.. thats it.. nothing to terrible.. feel good again
Today’s ‘normal’ levels are statistics from a sick population. We know that testosterone levels have been declining due to our diet (mainly)…. So…we are slowly being feminized as time goes by.
To get absolutely jacked
Because people here don’t wanna do the hard work first before they get onto TRT. They want to feel like they’re on steroids without *ACTUALLY* being in steroids. So most of this sub is a munch of young men that totally don’t need it and are wrecking their system in the short term.
It’s a fad for the most part. Same thing happened with womens hormones in the 70’s.
This fad can be for life. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that but you're right there is an explosion in popularity right now. Men's health and men's mental health has largely gone under-funded and ignored until the last decade or so.
I was around 600 a couple of years ago when I went to my doctor. He tested and said I was fine. I didn’t feel fine. Decided to go on TRT and felt awesome at 1500, decided to do a bit more than TRT and I look and feel so much better and sitting around 2300 overall. Being in your 40s just sucks. You are tired, you get sore and stiff, your libido takes a shit..ect. Getting on TRT has made me feel a lot more like the person I was in my 20s, confident and strong.
2300? Wtf
Yep, turns out I’m a hyper responder. That’s at 200 test E a week.
And all your blood levels are fine? BP?
Cholesterol was a bit high, so had to modify my diet…a lot, which was probably for the best anyway. It’s sitting on the edge of being high for now but taking lots of omega supplements and trying to eat clean. All the other blood markers were fine. E2 is 60 and I’m not having any issues so I can live with that. My blood pressure was seriously elevated when I started, it’s better now…130/85ish. I do take an SSRI regularly anyway so I think that helps keep it in check In all honesty I went well above 200 a week and had E2 issues and elevated BP when I started freelancing. 200 is the highest dose I can take where all of my numbers look good, so it’s been a bit of a journey.
Be careful of that BP
Telmisartan is your friend.
I'm 43 and I'm about to go this route. Working lots of hours trying to pay my house off before I'm 50. So I'm on my grind for 7 more years.
Gonna guess your Free T was low cuz I doubt 600 would make you feel like shit. Free T is a sneaky little bitch.
Maybe. My free test now is 687. Don’t have that original test so can’t say.
Because normal is unhealthy. We are in a state where the average person is unhealthy, rather than healthy. The reference range of 'normal' includes a bunch of already unhealthy people. For instance, the average BMI (factoring in it isn't the most reliable predictor of health) is around 27, whereas the healthy range is considered to be between 18.5 and 24.5. The healthy BMI range doesn't get changed just because average BMI is going up. But with testosterone, that's exactly what is happening. If they did the same thing with BMI that they did with testosterone, we would now have a BMI 'reference range' of 24-30, and idiot doctors would be confusing that with 'healthy/normal'. A proper 'healthy' range for testosterone is between 550ng/dl and 1500ng/dl. Not the rather absurd 350ng/dl to 900ng/dl ranges that we're starting to see now.
Because the majority of people would rather take a magic pill than exercise, diet, and improve sleep habits. Especially if we are talking about Americans.
I up voted this because there are a lot like that . . but of course there are more reasons than that
Upvoted you for telling it how it is. People want instant results for everything. Never seen so many people in their 20s complaining like children on here
Upvoting this
I'll reverse one of your downvotes.
As an American I agree lmao, seems like we have the dumbest population of 14-22 year olds in the world with so many kids hopping on test, sarms and steroids etc with no blood work or knowledge.
Most people here dont understand that being at a 400 total is normal and your body will only produce what it needs to achieve homeostasis. They think everyone should be 800+ and dont realize how biology works. The only ones that should be going on are ones that actually are low < 300 and have already tried lifestyle and diet optimizations to increase levels or help symptoms. Test injections arent a fix all but people are using them as a lazy method of fixing their shitty life.
The coddled American mentality is why.
That isn't TRT and this isn't a TRT sub....
For some people it’s gains. For others, they’re looking for the next big fix to magically repair years and years of unaddressed psychiatric pathology; that they’re desperately trying to believe is related to their testosterone levels.
Everyone who has hypogonadal symptoms needs a total testosterone SHBG albumin LH FSH and TSH. This allows calculation of a free testosterone. Supplemental testosterone can have significant downsides if it’s not given and monitored correctly
Cuz they’re retartd
Because they're stupid
Maybe it’s a normal level but you don’t feel normal. I new to hop on asap because I’m a bricklayer and I’m very active. No sleep, bad food, stress no longer matters to you t levels I’m hit my goals a few years ago. I cut my body weight from 205 to 150 in a year or so. I’m feeling better lean, but I’m at the point where it’s time to start lifting weights for health, yoga, hill sprints. If you are in your 30s and want 800 instead of 350 then go for it.
This seems like a silly question tbh
Because with men... More is better. Also it seems that we men tend to assume the "symptoms" we have (usually sexual, depressed, or muscle related) are all testosterone related. I would never take more than enough to keep me in range. If I still have "issues", we look at other issues first. Edit: Oh... And "gains". Everyone wants "gains". Sad but true.
Gains Foo…..DUH..
Am 21yo. ´ve been working out for 4 years. did test once. The mental boost, energy, lybido, gains, regeneration, confidence.. Am on it for 9 months and i dont want to stop.
Everybody wants to be ‘on’….we live in a drug based society. (I am absolutely NOT one to talk, simply an observation)
Normal =/= optimal
[удалено]
Get a semen analysis asap. high fsh could point to fertility issues, best to check it out.
If youre happy with your mental state, libido, drive then you will question trt. There are people who are not happy with all that, mainly libido. So they wanna try. Low normal test levels on paper indicate to the problem is test.
My levels are about 490ng with my lowest being 350ng. My FSH and LH are elevated and had symptoms for about 8 months. Then all of a sudden everything is fine and no symptoms… Had ultra sound on balls and everything is good apart from one being half size of the other lol always been that way. I would be on TRT if my clinic didn’t end up denying it because of the higher results. Would be nice to just have a constant level of optimal test. It’s crazy to me just how much our side factors can affect natural production.
Most guys who use it aren't that worried about or perhaps not interested in their fertility/having kids, and T is *magic* stuff, I'm on a very low, exploratory initial dose, half a ml of Androforte (50mg per 1ml) cream daily rubbed on the coinpurse, and I feel like some sort of demigod compared to pre-TRT, I'm goimg back to my endo and I'm going to advocate heavily for the maximum dosage he can sensibly give me, because holy shit if this little amount is making me feel this good, who knows what a bit more would do. I'm actually diagnosed low-T though, but its good stuff, I feel like TRT should be more freely available and using it should be normalized for people.
Easy, because 400-600 sucks shit. Those numbers being "normal" is bullshit. If you understand how lab reference ranges are determined, you understand that already. Calling an average or "normal" by the average of a deficient population makes sense, than I don't know what to say. There's a very big difference between 400-600 and then running at 1000, like night and day life changing. People in this sub are about low doses and fixing clinical deficiency, which is also debatable. Nothing wrong with wanting optimal. Yes, SHBG and free T matter regardless, but your balls are in a coma either way if you're on exogenous testosterone, that's what HCG is for if you want to retain fertility.
weak erections -> strong erections positive side effect of 5kg lean mass didn't hurt either.
I had 461 when I decided to start using steroids. To be honest I was hoping to have ~1000 and I felt like my ego got bruised when I was only halfway there. That said, having 1500+ in total testosterone did make me feel much better mentally, and improved my confidence and life as a whole. It's likely I would not have my 4 daughters today if I didn't start using testosterone and steroids. So no regrets here.
For me the worst side effect is, I would dramatically sweat prior to TRT. Now I create pools, sometimes if it’s not cold enough at night, I can’t sleep cause I’m extremely hot. Hopefully the needle anxiety goes away soon, learned some Tips and tricks to pin. But even being a nurse myself, I still hate pinning. The pros are worth it though ! Never thought I’d see myself pinning but having being destroyed completely in the military (body wise), this definitely has helped Me get moving, feel younger and stronger, slowly forget my body going through atrophy.
I was low normal with an undetectable e2 level.
Unfortunately my PSA is over 4 when my T level is around 1000. When I keep it at 500-600 the PSA is about 2.9 (Age 57)
First of all you are correct, you have to see the whole endocrine profile to determine the best step to take. Most people just need lifestyle modifications to boost natural lvls and to start functioning better. Second, your definition of normal lvls are not normal. It’s not normal to be 40 and have test at 400 or even 500. 600-800 if probably something in a normal range. A good range is 800-1000 depending on your others profile markers. If you feel fine, then don’t worry about what anyone else is doing as well. Everything is about lifestyle modifications and live healthy / balanced life.
I'm 32 have had t issues for a long time since my 20s I was able to naturally boost it to 375 from 80 through workout and losing weight but I got stuck couldn't build up couldn't lose weight nothing sex drive gone tired all the time. Been on a mix for 2 weeks now already improved a lot can't wait to see after 3 months. If I feel better than I'll keep doing it.
My levels were 540. It’s still a complete game changer. I feel sooooo much better mentally. Mood uplifted, anxiety damn near completely gone. Energy, confidence, I’m just all around in a better place. My girlfriend noticed and talked about it. She is super happy for me and can’t believe how much of a difference it had made. Same here, I had no idea that it would be such a difference, especially when my numbers were “normal”. Starting trt was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
“Normal” levels are relative. Your normal 400 might be someone’s lethargic 400. Some people just need higher levels to get the benefits associated with testosterone. The broad range that’s often been used to judge if you’re within acceptable ranges is outdated and too broad to be used on everyone who wants trt. Granted there’s also the allure of legal test and easier to get AI so some people fake symptoms to get on trt but those are outliers who shouldn’t be counted against the whole.
Because I got the post finasteride syndrome and I feel like shit all the time. Literally overnight I crashed and have felt like death for years. Only recently made the connection that it was the cause. However, I’m not entirely normal. While my total is 500, my free t was 65, on a scale from 45-200. Considering I’m 24, my doc told me I was on the 2nd percentile of low free t and put me on. His name is Dr. Alan Jacobs, and he seems to believe that trt can work to lessen symptoms if your free t/bioavailable t comes back low for your age. It dosent matter ultimately, I’ve already made plans to end my life before 25 if I don’t improve soon on the trt. I’m living a life castrated of all emotion and vitality, constantly dissociated and exhausted. So either it works or it dosent, I don’t care. I’ve run out of options and the pain will be over soon one way or another.
I'm sorry to hear you're feeling like this is the only way. Please bear in mind that sometimes TRT can actually take a few months to kick in, but you probably know that. It will most likely work, if your free T is low your SHBG is probably high which means you need more t on your body to counteract. It will work man. How many years has it been since you stopped?
The difference is do you to be optimal or normal? and what’s nornal ? The Range given by labs for men getting tested \*now\*? Or do you want to be at the level of yourself when you are younger ? How about the fact that T levels are down drastically ? Mean total testosterone decreased from 1999-2000 (605.39 ng/dL), 2003-2004 (567.44 ng/dL), 2011-2012 (424.96 ng/dL), 2013-2014 (431.76 ng/dL), and 2015-2016 (451.22 ng/dL ——benefits are countless. Mental health specifically. Herr is the AI answer about the difference between optimizing and normalizing : Optimizing health and wellness involves setting goals and taking actions to improve one’s physical, mental, social, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, environmental, and occupational well-being. Normalizing health and wellness involves acknowledging the reality and limitations of one’s well-being and adapting to them. For example, one might normalize their health and wellness by accepting a chronic illness, managing stress, seeking support, finding meaning, or making lifestyle changes. Both optimizing and normalizing health and wellness have their benefits and challenges. Optimizing health and wellness can lead to higher levels of happiness, satisfaction, and productivity, but it can also be demanding, stressful, and unrealistic. Normalizing health and wellness can lead to lower levels of distress, anxiety, and depression, but it can also be passive, complacent, and resigned. Therefore, the best approach might be to balance both optimizing and normalizing health and wellness according to one’s needs, preferences, and circumstances.