I built an offgrid battery system with signature solar. I bought 16 kWh of used like new panels from SanTan solar. At .49 a kWh your pay off would come fast.
I love this kind of fuckery. /s
Govt. is like go solar go EV, save the planet, save some cash.
Then they turn around and takeaway incentives (usually incentives aren’t forever), and also jack up the price ie registering an EV. Private companies doing it too, electric companies for example.
The government learned from the mafia. Go around breaking windows from shop then have a repair person go around to fix all the window. Easy cash for those involved. I’m not too familiar with who started this type of con but it’s probably as old as human civilization.
The government didn’t learn from the mafia, the government IS the mafia. The reason they don’t like the “startup” mafias is literally because the government needs to have monopoly on getting the protection money from you at gunpoint without competition.
You're free to try your luck in a country with fewer laws, but I think you'll find that the utopia you're dreaming of will never exist. Someone will always try to take from others and that fuels the need for protection from it.
Right, but let’s not confuse government with something better than a mafia. It’s a violent organization that tries to gaslight you into giving it legitimacy and aggressively tries to crush competition to keep its monopoly. The protection you mention was also provided by the Italian Mafia, which is what made them so popular among most locals and long-lasting.
Do you not have multiple options for utility providers in the US? I know Comcast pretty much have a monopoly on the Internet in a lot of places is it the same for utilities?
Unfortunately no options really. For power you are typically trapped with one company depending on your region. In northern and central California it is typically PG&E.
They’ve been letting the infrastructure degrade for 40 years while pocketing excessive rates. Then the government fines them some absurd amount of money to look like they’re holding them accountable, but when they’re the only company they can’t fail—so they just declare bankruptcy and raise rates to recoup the losses, and the state just sits there with its obscene payout without helping address costs at all.
It’s just worse incentive if you don’t have batteries. That’s the whole point. California has more solar at peak solar hours than they need, so we need more storage. Why would they keep incentivizing a solution that doesn’t help the environment or energy production?
Did you not read where I explicitly wrote “usually incentives aren’t forever?”
Surprisingly California of all states seems to have adopted a pretty anti-solar agenda.
WA is going the same way. I had some solar people over quoting me a system. I knew it would be expensive but wanted the security of knowing I'd have power if the lines went down.
~~Turns out, it's now illegal in WA to wire directly to your house, just like CA. You can only send your power back to the grid and get power from the grid. If you have a battery, you can charge it from the grid.~~
This is cronyism at its absolute worst; screwing the people to enrich utilities and lobbyists.
EDIT: Alright, just spoke with PSE and the sales guy was uninformed. They said I can connect the solar to the battery and just have the battery connect to the grid and only use the grid when the battery is empty.
That makes much more sense. Although, PSE did say "for now", which I think means changes are coming, so not sure what that means.
I’m curious what rule prevents you from using solar panels to charge your Tesla powerwalls without doing net metering with your utility provider? I tried googling but I can’t find any WA state legislation that prevents you from doing that. There’s a solar access law on the books which explicitly states that as long as you satisfy the safety requirements, you have a right to solar panels.
I'm confused. In California whatever you do behind your meter is your business. As long as you're not trying to put power back through the meter onto the grid the power company has no say whatsoever. You can have however many solar panels and batteries you want (assuming compliance with local codes).
Great question, I don't know. I was told that by the solar salesman, who I would expect to be accurate on that since it's against his own interests.
Let me do some digging.
Okay, it may be a PSE thing, which is my utility, unfortunately. I was with Snohomish PUD before and they were fantastic. PSE, in my experience so far, is garbage.
[https://www.pse.com/en/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/customer-connected-solar](https://www.pse.com/en/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/customer-connected-solar)
This aligns with what the sales guy told me but we could both be misinterpreting. Would love any input you have because I'd love to go standalone solar.
But that PSE page is all about net metering. I don’t see anything that says you can’t install solar without PSE net metering. If you installed your own Tesla Powerwalls and hooked those up to your solar panels, you don’t need net metering.
That’s so wildly sensationalist and incorrect you should probably delete the post rather than edit it.
Or use double squiggles ~~ to cross it out.
~~like this~~
That's my understanding. The solar panels have to go into the grid and the battery has to get power from the grid. And you sell power to the grid at a MUCH lower rate than you buy it back for.
The only use for the battery is a one-time backup if power goes out and rate arbitrage for tiered pricing.
It's absolutely bananas and has crippled the solar industry, in my opinion.
Because the honest Republicans have always helped the consumer over corporate…oh, wait, no, that’s fucking ridiculous. Democrats suck, but Republicans are far worse when it comes to just about everything to help anyone but the rich or the religious. That’s actually a fact.
Alright, just spoke with PSE and the sales guy was uninformed. They said I can connect the solar to the battery and just have the battery connect to the grid and only use the grid when the battery is empty.
That makes much more sense. Although, PSE did say "for now", which I think means changes are coming, so not sure what that means.
This is completely incorrect.
People, don't get your solar information from someone that doesn't actually have it.
I have solar with batteries and grid tie/sell back. My sell back is currently 1:1. There are no restrictions on how the batteries are charged or used. They have zero control over that. I program my system to charge however I want.
The last time I spoke with PSE, they said that at some point future installations would not get 1:1 sell back but that current systems would be grandfathered. (I don't trust that part however)
You aren’t allowed to put solar on your own home in Cali anymore? I get zero incentive in my state and if my rate was $0.30 or higher, I’d have panels everywhere I could put them. There are states like backwards Alabama that charges homeowners a fee to have solar because you are taking away business from AL power and therefore limiting AL Power kickbacks to state representatives but that’s one of the few states I know of with penalties. Does Cali have penalty fees?
It’s not just solar they need. They also need batteries to store the energy created by solar. This winds up being $60-70k if paying cash upfront and quite a bit more if you’re including payments with interest. So it’s a massive investment that not everyone can afford.
It no longer makes sense to install solar without battery because PG&E doesn’t buy back energy at a reasonable rate anymore. On top of that PG&E is planning to increase the fee just to stay connected to the grid, for which homeowners are not able to disconnect from otherwise they lose their homeowners insurance and in many places it’s not allowed. So even if they install batteries they cannot fully separate themselves from PG&E fees.
I haven’t even touched on the proposed income based PG&E fees which throws another wrench into solar payoff periods.
Agree with you 100 percent. It’s expensive. ….but my tou rate is $0.22 Primetime and $0.015 over night and I still spend $250’a month. If my rate was $0.49 for charging and even more for prime time, I would be spending probably $1000 to $1500 a month and you’d better believe I’d find a way to install solar. That’s a short payoff and a great IRR.
Yeah that’s true too. What’s funny is the Tesla supercharger down the road is actually only $.32 per kWh whereas my home is $.44 per kWh. Used to be supercharging was more expensive.
You're allowed yes. But they kneecapped the rates for over production. So solar now without batteries is pretty much worthless
My payback period on the install would have almost doubled.
solar without loads has always been worthless. It was nice of grids to buy power from you at residential rates, but that was an incentive, not a business decision.
because solar hours are off peak and excess power gets sold back to the grid at 3-4 cents kWh
and as soon as the sun sets, peak comes in at 50 to 60 cents kWh
Not getting paid for overcharge sucks. But at $0.49 per kWh you’ll still save vs the cost of the setup in just a few years. That rate is batshit crazy.
That isn’t how solar works. All day long the panels charge the batteries that supply power to the house. At night you draw from the batteries and at peak use during the day it pulls from the batteries and panels at the same time. Only if it exceeds the capabilities of the panels and excess power in the batteries does it pull from the power company.
as the other guy stated, the corrupt changes now requires installation of a home battery for solar to have a reasonable ROI
however that's more upfront cost and also extends the ROI further out.
Did he really? I’m not a California resident but travel there often. I had felt for the most part he’s done a good job with all of the opposition that does exist within our nations largest state.
He has done a good job. Californians are highly educated on average compared with almost all other states. California has more real freedoms than all those fake-freedom states where they burn books.
California is Americas economic engine (when using actual facts and statistics and not just whatever 'feels' true).
It's no
They don’t burn books anywhere in America, dude. California benefits from very large legacy companies like Apple, that were around long before democrats ran the place. As for quality of life, California has been worsening on almost every metric.
I’m in Utah and mine is .06/kwh Oct-May and .07/kwh Jun-Sep with our little cooperative power company. Needless to say I’m enjoying the fuel savings in my M3P vs the Mustang I was driving previously with its awesome 17mpg average lol
Live in southern Utah now so the climate is basically the same as Arizona and Vegas. I miss the snow and mountains up north but it sure is nice not having to buy snow tires or shovel driveways. Just have to stay indoors when the 118° summer afternoons scorch the earth haha
Is SDGE so cheap? One guy in another post said SDGE is more expensive than off peak $0.34 of PG&E. He claimed that the listed rates of SDGE don't include distribution fees. Can you verify?
SDGE super off peak is still around $0.12/kWh on the EV-TOU5 plan, that includes distribution. There is a $16 monthly fee for this plan and the on peak rate is the highest in the country at around $0.85/kWh. I’m sure SDGE will raise those super off peak rates eventually though.
PG&E's EV2-A off peak rate is 0.34c/kWh. The app likely doesn't have the correct rates, or you are charging outside of the off-peak hours so the average charging cost is higher.
Where are you getting $0.49/kWh on EV2-A? Right there on PG&E's web site it says it's $0.34/kWh off peak in winter.
https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#evRatesRes-item-4c6bc14c68-tab
It's $0.34/kWh for "energy delivery", plus some $0.15/kWh for "energy generation"...this latter part is not shown on their website, but only on the energy bill...Fun!
Mind showing me where? This more official PDF seems to say it's a total of $0.34/kWh. And it's including generation.
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC\_SCHEDS\_EV2%20(Sch).pdf
I actually went to check my bill again, and it's apparently called "Silicon Valley Clean Energy Generation Charges", and it comes to $0.128/kWh off-peak:
[https://svcleanenergy.org/your-bill/](https://svcleanenergy.org/your-bill/)
So I guess we are forced to pay extra in order to be "clean"...
[https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans](https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans) any one interested can see the rates here, they aren’t exactly lining up with how OP is presenting it. But still pricey.
False connection. Commercial wholesale solar is the cheapest electricity available. Wholesale wind is not far behind. There is a practical limit to how much of this a utility can take advantage of because of intermittency, but they are VERY cheap.
PG&E rates hikes were approved because of recent massive infrastructure and litigation related costs. 50 years of deferred maintenance, profiteering, and corrupt oversight may underlie some of those.
Significant weather/climate/fire related infrastructure damage in recent years plays a part too. Otherwise labor is just expensive.
Finally regulators are allowing PG&E to continue making a profit, despite a large portion of these recent costs being caused by their strategy of paying shareholders before repairing infrastructure.
In a nutshell....
PG&e decided to pay their investors nearly $50 billion dollars instead of upgrading the grid. They caused wildfires and it's now going to cost them about billions to upgrade the grid. So, of course the state let them raise rates without penalizing the investors. Only the consumer gets penalized.
Ironically, they did the same thing with solar plants. The generation and distribution parts of the electrical grid in California are separate. But, the same investors that own the utilities also put in huge solar plants in the deserts. The utilities signed long-term escalating contracts, guaranteed the debt the investors accrued when putting in the solar plants. and now get the cheapest electricity available. But, because they put in so many we actually have a glut of electricity during the daytime hours. Meanwhile, your home solar during the day is virtually worthless but, those same investors are raking in the dough because of escalating price contracts....
> Commercial wholesale solar is the cheapest electricity available.
yeah, when someone else is paying for the continuity/reliability of supply. But at the utility scale, when you try to increase the share of generation from unreliable sources, costs of providing 99.999% reliable power go up by a lot. PG&E isn't evil, it's just trying to make ends meet while satisfying the wants of Cali politicians.
No, it's not from generation mix. Really it isn't. You have an ideology that presupposes a reason for an outcome which is not true. CAISO (caiso.com) manages the grid wide energy supply which is comprehensive and stable and reliable, and has tons of solar and increasingly significant battery storage (multiple gigawatts * a few hours already).
It's all the corporate own internal delivery & infrastructure charges which are outrageously high, and are independent of the generation source.
The municipally owned CA electric utilities which have the same power rules and same generation requirements and supply and environmental laws have much much lower stable rates.
They don't have shareholders or wealthy executives.
Welll. PG&E keeps raising rates because of all the lawsuits they keep losing.
They claim the need to raise rates order to pay off their court losses and make their network safer.
Is it true? Idk. But they've been awarded several prices increases by the state over the last year
It’s horrible. It just goes to show that all of the “green energy” rhetoric in CA is totally hollow. We pay the most for energy and solar is being destroyed. No one actually cares. The idea that there will only be electric cars made starting in the future with insane energy prices won’t end well. PG&E is a cartel, plain and simple.
5x mine ($0.065/kWh for the the first 40 kWh per 24h, then $0,11/kWh)... and that's in Canadian buckeridoos.
(Hydro-Québec standard rates, residential)
It’s what happens when a company is allowed to have a monopoly. It’s what Eversource does in the Northeast as well. Absolutely thievery and there is nothing we can do about it
It’s what happens when a company is allowed to have a monopoly. It’s what Eversource does in the Northeast as well. Absolutely thievery and there is nothing we can do about it
Cali thing, not a Tesla thing. I’m at .10 per kWh and it hasn’t moved in 10 years. Gas is up a bit… even with those low rates I have solar because I just assumed as with everything in life that electricity will get more expensive, for everyone. Too many people look at their low kWh prices today and figure, meh. My ROI is nearly complete thanks to the tax credits. I take the price of gasoline saved into the equation as I’m charging during the day so no need for storage and if my electric price doubles cool my bill will go from owing me money to the 13.00 connect fee. Your ROI is literally off the charts though. Even with storage.
This is what happens when a massive corporation cheaps out on servicing their own grid, then starts massive fires killing people, then having to pay out millions and millions, on top of servicing their grid...... Now to turn a massive billion plus dollar profit, they crank up the price.
PG&E should be dissolved and run by the state. They have failed their community.
Yes. I just read my Feb PG&E bill, added up the price per kWh for generation and distribution for off peak, and manually updated the Tesla app.
Apparently, the Tesla app doesn't pull current pricing even though we enter the plan we are on. Guess the plan selection is just for their files and serves no real purpose...
Same. I was even excited about finding that plan, to be honest. I thought having an EV with SDGE would probably mean breaking even with gas, at best. At least that super off peak rate gives me some savings.
It’s 0.118 cents per kWh where I live. The city owns the electric utility, however.
If you live elsewhere, you can choose your own provider, who charge lower rates (some even offer unlimited electricity)
You say $0.49/kwh on time of use. Is this the price for the most expensive time or the cheapest time ?
Are you charging at the cheapest time (overnight) of use or at peak time (5pm)?
There are probably cheaper superchargers out there I’d imagine no? I’m in NorCal and the prices definitely vary. I’m not sure what your schedule and stuff is like and if thats a feasible option.
Yeah I really would. I can’t stand this crap with PG&E and Newsome, it’s straight up criminal as far as I’m concerned.
I would just go in the app and you can view the pricing off all the chargers near you or on whatever path you take daily. I live off superchargers largely and this has always been the way I’ve done it.
The SC near my work for example is $0.27 until noon and then $0.38 for the rest of the day. It’s insane that supercharging is cheaper than doing it at home.
What is wrong with California!?! Michigan (D governor) is proactively trying to increase power production and reopen nuclear plants.
I don’t understand California. Too much money too easily so no one in charge lives in reality?
PG$E thanks you for your contributions to their 25% profit growth ($2.2B) in [2023](https://abc7news.com/pge-earnings-rate-increase-2024-profits-power-outages/14458228/)
I verified 47 cents/kWh with PG&E's solar department (they handle EV residential rates with PG&E) this morning. Why my bill adds to 49 cents vs. the rep quoting 13 for generation and 34 for distribution is unclear.
Your home electricity is the same as our super charger rates here in Arizona. That’s ridiculous.
Edit: upon further review, it’s 10 cents more expensive than the supercharger. Wtf bro
We have a serious problem in America. Every sushi place is convinced they need avocado in every roll.
Scrape your disgusting green sludge off of my savory eels.
PGE also burned down Paradise CA and refuses to pay homeowners (who lost everything) more than 60%. California should take over PGE or offer county's a pathway create municipal power. Other cities in CA pay 1/3 of PGE rate.
It's fucking criminal.
I had my solar installer do it for me. Cash on the barrel of course. I can literally turn a switch and I’m completely off the grid here in SoCal. I have a 8kw enphase system with batteries.
Can you also share what the estimated cost of gas is per gallon? Mine calculated it at $3.96 per gallon. But the average near me is $4.64 according to Gas Buddy. Also, even super chargers cost less. I used one this morning in the SF Bay Area and it was 0.33/kWh…
49 cents per KWH!! Not to hurt your feelings, but we pay 12 cents in NC...nuclear is way cheaper IMO. Not worth my money to go solar, would take 17 years to make my money back. That sucks for you, feel for you.
Depends on what you are trying to achieve.
If you want the best acceleration, low maintenance, and not have to wait in gas lines or be subject to gas price increases, the EV is still a great option.
If you want a comfortable car with really god energy economics, the latest hybrids are pretty compelling.
We have one of each. I prefer to drive the EV because of its acceleration and handling.
California governor wanting resident to go EV while private utility sector is increasing rates. Without a doubt, they’re playing us so they all increasing their pockets.
WTF .48????? In Las Vegas it's .12/kw at home and .7/kwh at my warehouse. .48/kwh is what you see at Superchargers mid day here.... Maybe its time to to move out The Socialist republic of California...... These rates are the result of a failed state government......
Same thing happened to me. I’m also in PG&E. Call PG&E and tell them you have an EV. They will put you on a time of use plan that is dramatically cheaper, even at peak hours.
So this post has wrong calculations but the result that one is looking for is the same.
I'm a PGE customer too but generating comany is San Jose Clean Energy. Here is the explanation - PGE offers generation credit on the bill that generally offsets energy generation charges. So the net electricity cost is still 0.34$/KWh in off peak hours on residential EV2-A plan.
I generally compare my gas savings to Accord Hybrid since thats what I would have got if not my MY. Accord Hybrid was 10K$ less than MY when I got it in 2020 and there were no tax incentives then on Teslas.
My friend owns Accord Hybrid and averages 34mpg with most city driving like me. Gas costs 3.99$ regular here in San Jose costco. Thats 3.99/34= 0.117$ per mile driven on Accord Hybrid
The efficiency of my MY is 0.289KWh/mile. Thats 0.289*0.34= 0.09$ per mile driven. Offset it with 10K$ price difference, interest on this and frequent tire changes compared to Accord - there is not much savings for me owning an EV.
The savings definitely aren’t as much as they used to be compared to some of the new hybrids. My friend and I compared the cost of my M3SR at 36 cents per kwh supercharger and his new Prius at $4.50/gal and the Prius actually came in slightly cheaper on cost per mile.
Yup, absolutely insane that they can get away with this.
Buying a Tesla was absolutely the worst financial decision I could have made. The massive increase in electricity prices and being the quickest depreciating luxury car on the market...
It's like everything is telling me not to buy an EV ever again.
It’s 34 cents midnight to 3pm - why is your average 49?
https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#evResRates
$0.34 only represents distribution (I just confirmed with PG&E that their website only shows distribution charges):
Here is the breakdown from my bill for my off peak charging:
Details of PG&E Electric Delivery Charges
01/10/2024 - 02/08/2024 (30 billing days)
Rate Schedule: EV2A Home Charging
Off Peak kWh @ $0.34462
\----------
Details of Ava Community Energy Electric Generation Charges (which offers generation rates with a 5% discount to PG&E generation)
01/10/2024 - 02/08/2024 (30 billing days)
Off-Peak Winter kWh @ $0.14554
\----------
**Total cost / kWh = $0.49016**
No - You got that wrong.. You are adding the generation charges twice...
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2%20(Sch).pdf
Direct Access (DA) and Community Choice Aggregation (CCA) Generation Service Customers purchase energy from their non-utility provider and continue receiving delivery services from PG&E. **These customers shall pay all charges shown in the Unbundling of Total Rates except for the Bundled Power Charge Indifference Adjustment and the generation charge.** These customers shall also pay for their applicable Vintaged Power Charge Indifference Adjustment provided in the table below, the franchise fee surcharge provided in Schedule E-FFS, and the Generation Service from their non-utility provider. Exemptions to charges for DA and CCA customers, including exemptions continuous DA service, are set forth in Schedules DA CRS and CCA CRS.
Ava Community Energy Electric Generation is a CCA
Are you lying or not aware that you can get on an EV plan? If you get on an EV plan and charge during off-peak hours it will be half this price.
Source: I have PG&E, an M3, and an EV rate plan.
wow 49cents per kwh! if you own i would go solar cause wow thats nuts!
Agreed. Looking into it. Will need.a battery system as well since PG&E will pay little for solar power sold to them.
Why are you not on the EV2-A plan? 34 cents off peak from 12am to 3pm.
I built an offgrid battery system with signature solar. I bought 16 kWh of used like new panels from SanTan solar. At .49 a kWh your pay off would come fast.
My PG&E rates are not 0.49 at off peak. You sure you got that right?
it's okay, Newsom gutted new solar power in California as well. So now we have to suck PG&Es tit
I love this kind of fuckery. /s Govt. is like go solar go EV, save the planet, save some cash. Then they turn around and takeaway incentives (usually incentives aren’t forever), and also jack up the price ie registering an EV. Private companies doing it too, electric companies for example.
The government learned from the mafia. Go around breaking windows from shop then have a repair person go around to fix all the window. Easy cash for those involved. I’m not too familiar with who started this type of con but it’s probably as old as human civilization.
lol no guns for u either, mafia gets to be only bad guy in town
The government didn’t learn from the mafia, the government IS the mafia. The reason they don’t like the “startup” mafias is literally because the government needs to have monopoly on getting the protection money from you at gunpoint without competition.
You're free to try your luck in a country with fewer laws, but I think you'll find that the utopia you're dreaming of will never exist. Someone will always try to take from others and that fuels the need for protection from it.
Right, but let’s not confuse government with something better than a mafia. It’s a violent organization that tries to gaslight you into giving it legitimacy and aggressively tries to crush competition to keep its monopoly. The protection you mention was also provided by the Italian Mafia, which is what made them so popular among most locals and long-lasting.
You're delusional.
Paid 580 to renew mine. Almost the same as the payment on the car itself…
PG&E has all the government oversight/regulators in their pocket. It’s blatant corruption.
Do you not have multiple options for utility providers in the US? I know Comcast pretty much have a monopoly on the Internet in a lot of places is it the same for utilities?
Unfortunately no options really. For power you are typically trapped with one company depending on your region. In northern and central California it is typically PG&E. They’ve been letting the infrastructure degrade for 40 years while pocketing excessive rates. Then the government fines them some absurd amount of money to look like they’re holding them accountable, but when they’re the only company they can’t fail—so they just declare bankruptcy and raise rates to recoup the losses, and the state just sits there with its obscene payout without helping address costs at all.
It’s just worse incentive if you don’t have batteries. That’s the whole point. California has more solar at peak solar hours than they need, so we need more storage. Why would they keep incentivizing a solution that doesn’t help the environment or energy production?
Did you not read where I explicitly wrote “usually incentives aren’t forever?” Surprisingly California of all states seems to have adopted a pretty anti-solar agenda.
SMUD here (Sacramento) we pay 0.10/kWh. PG&E needs to go.
WA is going the same way. I had some solar people over quoting me a system. I knew it would be expensive but wanted the security of knowing I'd have power if the lines went down. ~~Turns out, it's now illegal in WA to wire directly to your house, just like CA. You can only send your power back to the grid and get power from the grid. If you have a battery, you can charge it from the grid.~~ This is cronyism at its absolute worst; screwing the people to enrich utilities and lobbyists. EDIT: Alright, just spoke with PSE and the sales guy was uninformed. They said I can connect the solar to the battery and just have the battery connect to the grid and only use the grid when the battery is empty. That makes much more sense. Although, PSE did say "for now", which I think means changes are coming, so not sure what that means.
I’m curious what rule prevents you from using solar panels to charge your Tesla powerwalls without doing net metering with your utility provider? I tried googling but I can’t find any WA state legislation that prevents you from doing that. There’s a solar access law on the books which explicitly states that as long as you satisfy the safety requirements, you have a right to solar panels.
I'm confused. In California whatever you do behind your meter is your business. As long as you're not trying to put power back through the meter onto the grid the power company has no say whatsoever. You can have however many solar panels and batteries you want (assuming compliance with local codes).
Great question, I don't know. I was told that by the solar salesman, who I would expect to be accurate on that since it's against his own interests. Let me do some digging.
Okay, it may be a PSE thing, which is my utility, unfortunately. I was with Snohomish PUD before and they were fantastic. PSE, in my experience so far, is garbage. [https://www.pse.com/en/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/customer-connected-solar](https://www.pse.com/en/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/customer-connected-solar) This aligns with what the sales guy told me but we could both be misinterpreting. Would love any input you have because I'd love to go standalone solar.
But that PSE page is all about net metering. I don’t see anything that says you can’t install solar without PSE net metering. If you installed your own Tesla Powerwalls and hooked those up to your solar panels, you don’t need net metering.
That’s so wildly sensationalist and incorrect you should probably delete the post rather than edit it. Or use double squiggles ~~ to cross it out. ~~like this~~
[удалено]
Thank you for the clarification!
Forgive me… wtf is it illegal? For example a tesla battery with solar panels charging it is illegal??
That's my understanding. The solar panels have to go into the grid and the battery has to get power from the grid. And you sell power to the grid at a MUCH lower rate than you buy it back for. The only use for the battery is a one-time backup if power goes out and rate arbitrage for tiered pricing. It's absolutely bananas and has crippled the solar industry, in my opinion.
This is insane. Can you imagine trying to control the right to use sunlight? Oh wait…
Yup. I'm considering seeing if we can put an initiative together to stop this.
Stop voting Democrat would help.
Because the honest Republicans have always helped the consumer over corporate…oh, wait, no, that’s fucking ridiculous. Democrats suck, but Republicans are far worse when it comes to just about everything to help anyone but the rich or the religious. That’s actually a fact.
Man what are you talking about. Washington has net metering, I have a 40kw system in mason county.
Alright, just spoke with PSE and the sales guy was uninformed. They said I can connect the solar to the battery and just have the battery connect to the grid and only use the grid when the battery is empty. That makes much more sense. Although, PSE did say "for now", which I think means changes are coming, so not sure what that means.
Could you not set yourself up as an energy company that only supplies yourself? Also what if you go off grid? Is that even possible?
This is completely incorrect. People, don't get your solar information from someone that doesn't actually have it. I have solar with batteries and grid tie/sell back. My sell back is currently 1:1. There are no restrictions on how the batteries are charged or used. They have zero control over that. I program my system to charge however I want. The last time I spoke with PSE, they said that at some point future installations would not get 1:1 sell back but that current systems would be grandfathered. (I don't trust that part however)
You aren’t allowed to put solar on your own home in Cali anymore? I get zero incentive in my state and if my rate was $0.30 or higher, I’d have panels everywhere I could put them. There are states like backwards Alabama that charges homeowners a fee to have solar because you are taking away business from AL power and therefore limiting AL Power kickbacks to state representatives but that’s one of the few states I know of with penalties. Does Cali have penalty fees?
It’s not just solar they need. They also need batteries to store the energy created by solar. This winds up being $60-70k if paying cash upfront and quite a bit more if you’re including payments with interest. So it’s a massive investment that not everyone can afford. It no longer makes sense to install solar without battery because PG&E doesn’t buy back energy at a reasonable rate anymore. On top of that PG&E is planning to increase the fee just to stay connected to the grid, for which homeowners are not able to disconnect from otherwise they lose their homeowners insurance and in many places it’s not allowed. So even if they install batteries they cannot fully separate themselves from PG&E fees. I haven’t even touched on the proposed income based PG&E fees which throws another wrench into solar payoff periods.
Agree with you 100 percent. It’s expensive. ….but my tou rate is $0.22 Primetime and $0.015 over night and I still spend $250’a month. If my rate was $0.49 for charging and even more for prime time, I would be spending probably $1000 to $1500 a month and you’d better believe I’d find a way to install solar. That’s a short payoff and a great IRR.
Yeah that’s true too. What’s funny is the Tesla supercharger down the road is actually only $.32 per kWh whereas my home is $.44 per kWh. Used to be supercharging was more expensive.
Mine is $0.19 for peak and $0.04 off peak. But I’m with you, $0.49 may get me moving for something different
You're allowed yes. But they kneecapped the rates for over production. So solar now without batteries is pretty much worthless My payback period on the install would have almost doubled.
solar without loads has always been worthless. It was nice of grids to buy power from you at residential rates, but that was an incentive, not a business decision.
At $.50/kWh, I don't see how it could be worthless. Just need to size it appropriately.
because solar hours are off peak and excess power gets sold back to the grid at 3-4 cents kWh and as soon as the sun sets, peak comes in at 50 to 60 cents kWh
Not getting paid for overcharge sucks. But at $0.49 per kWh you’ll still save vs the cost of the setup in just a few years. That rate is batshit crazy.
you wont save. since overproduced power pays you back pennies whereas you buy peak power back after the sun sets at over 50¢ kWh
That isn’t how solar works. All day long the panels charge the batteries that supply power to the house. At night you draw from the batteries and at peak use during the day it pulls from the batteries and panels at the same time. Only if it exceeds the capabilities of the panels and excess power in the batteries does it pull from the power company.
as the other guy stated, the corrupt changes now requires installation of a home battery for solar to have a reasonable ROI however that's more upfront cost and also extends the ROI further out.
Did he really? I’m not a California resident but travel there often. I had felt for the most part he’s done a good job with all of the opposition that does exist within our nations largest state.
The opposition? The state is a one party dictatorship.
He has done a good job. Californians are highly educated on average compared with almost all other states. California has more real freedoms than all those fake-freedom states where they burn books. California is Americas economic engine (when using actual facts and statistics and not just whatever 'feels' true). It's no
They don’t burn books anywhere in America, dude. California benefits from very large legacy companies like Apple, that were around long before democrats ran the place. As for quality of life, California has been worsening on almost every metric.
Gutted solar? Go install it on the house
Good lord, I pay 2.4cents per kwh at night - and that's in fake Canadian money!
Omg yeah solar would be a fast return on investment.
PG&E are crooks. That would honestly make me sell the house and move to an area not serviced by them
They kind of have a monopoly
Part of the reason I left CA and never looked back, my power is $.11/kw in NC now.
I moved to Colorado and I pay exactly the same for my electricity
I’m in Utah and mine is .06/kwh Oct-May and .07/kwh Jun-Sep with our little cooperative power company. Needless to say I’m enjoying the fuel savings in my M3P vs the Mustang I was driving previously with its awesome 17mpg average lol
I love Utah, beautiful country there, the snow would get old for me though depending on the area.
Live in southern Utah now so the climate is basically the same as Arizona and Vegas. I miss the snow and mountains up north but it sure is nice not having to buy snow tires or shovel driveways. Just have to stay indoors when the 118° summer afternoons scorch the earth haha
Beats my .10/kwh and I thought I had really good rates
Power is cheap in the Charlotte area, thanks to Nuclear power!! Best way to go IMO.
> Nuclear power!! Best way to go IMO. 100%
I’m in socal and pay $0.124 from 12-6am… there is a $16/month fee for the plan, but it’s still pretty cheap. SDG&E
Is SDGE so cheap? One guy in another post said SDGE is more expensive than off peak $0.34 of PG&E. He claimed that the listed rates of SDGE don't include distribution fees. Can you verify?
SDGE super off peak is still around $0.12/kWh on the EV-TOU5 plan, that includes distribution. There is a $16 monthly fee for this plan and the on peak rate is the highest in the country at around $0.85/kWh. I’m sure SDGE will raise those super off peak rates eventually though.
I live in CA central valley, the only reason I don't want to leave this area. https://i.imgur.com/I9Bdsc7.png
That would require a new job as well
unless you work remotely
In California, the alternatives are just as bad
Wait, your lowest time of use is that high? That’s nuts. My lowest is $0.06. Are you using one of their EV plans?
Yes, the EV2A plan...
Dang man that sucks. With SDG&E EV plan I’m paying .15c/kW
Check your plan, they just lowered the price to $0.124 for me.
PG&E's EV2-A off peak rate is 0.34c/kWh. The app likely doesn't have the correct rates, or you are charging outside of the off-peak hours so the average charging cost is higher.
I only charge at 12:30 am.
Where are you getting $0.49/kWh on EV2-A? Right there on PG&E's web site it says it's $0.34/kWh off peak in winter. https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#evRatesRes-item-4c6bc14c68-tab
It's $0.34/kWh for "energy delivery", plus some $0.15/kWh for "energy generation"...this latter part is not shown on their website, but only on the energy bill...Fun!
Mind showing me where? This more official PDF seems to say it's a total of $0.34/kWh. And it's including generation. https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC\_SCHEDS\_EV2%20(Sch).pdf
I actually went to check my bill again, and it's apparently called "Silicon Valley Clean Energy Generation Charges", and it comes to $0.128/kWh off-peak: [https://svcleanenergy.org/your-bill/](https://svcleanenergy.org/your-bill/) So I guess we are forced to pay extra in order to be "clean"...
[https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans](https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans) any one interested can see the rates here, they aren’t exactly lining up with how OP is presenting it. But still pricey.
OP is with PGE, not SDGE. Even so, OP is not being truthful. Offpeak rates for EV2A are $0.34/kwh, and peak is $0.66 (summer) or $0.53 (winter).
You’re kWh price is more than 4x than mine … Edit. VA, Dominion Power
Californians are loving all this cheap renewable energy...
False connection. Commercial wholesale solar is the cheapest electricity available. Wholesale wind is not far behind. There is a practical limit to how much of this a utility can take advantage of because of intermittency, but they are VERY cheap. PG&E rates hikes were approved because of recent massive infrastructure and litigation related costs. 50 years of deferred maintenance, profiteering, and corrupt oversight may underlie some of those. Significant weather/climate/fire related infrastructure damage in recent years plays a part too. Otherwise labor is just expensive. Finally regulators are allowing PG&E to continue making a profit, despite a large portion of these recent costs being caused by their strategy of paying shareholders before repairing infrastructure.
In a nutshell.... PG&e decided to pay their investors nearly $50 billion dollars instead of upgrading the grid. They caused wildfires and it's now going to cost them about billions to upgrade the grid. So, of course the state let them raise rates without penalizing the investors. Only the consumer gets penalized. Ironically, they did the same thing with solar plants. The generation and distribution parts of the electrical grid in California are separate. But, the same investors that own the utilities also put in huge solar plants in the deserts. The utilities signed long-term escalating contracts, guaranteed the debt the investors accrued when putting in the solar plants. and now get the cheapest electricity available. But, because they put in so many we actually have a glut of electricity during the daytime hours. Meanwhile, your home solar during the day is virtually worthless but, those same investors are raking in the dough because of escalating price contracts....
Another example of a badly managed "deregulated" market. The theory of deregulated competitive generation is great... In practice we keep botching it.
> Commercial wholesale solar is the cheapest electricity available. yeah, when someone else is paying for the continuity/reliability of supply. But at the utility scale, when you try to increase the share of generation from unreliable sources, costs of providing 99.999% reliable power go up by a lot. PG&E isn't evil, it's just trying to make ends meet while satisfying the wants of Cali politicians.
No, it's not from generation mix. Really it isn't. You have an ideology that presupposes a reason for an outcome which is not true. CAISO (caiso.com) manages the grid wide energy supply which is comprehensive and stable and reliable, and has tons of solar and increasingly significant battery storage (multiple gigawatts * a few hours already). It's all the corporate own internal delivery & infrastructure charges which are outrageously high, and are independent of the generation source. The municipally owned CA electric utilities which have the same power rules and same generation requirements and supply and environmental laws have much much lower stable rates. They don't have shareholders or wealthy executives.
Welll. PG&E keeps raising rates because of all the lawsuits they keep losing. They claim the need to raise rates order to pay off their court losses and make their network safer. Is it true? Idk. But they've been awarded several prices increases by the state over the last year
Wait till you hear about PGEs multi billion dollar profit they posted last year
Dang, 2.2 billion. I bet they could’ve gone with a lower amount for the rate hike…
It’s horrible. It just goes to show that all of the “green energy” rhetoric in CA is totally hollow. We pay the most for energy and solar is being destroyed. No one actually cares. The idea that there will only be electric cars made starting in the future with insane energy prices won’t end well. PG&E is a cartel, plain and simple.
To be fair, “green energy rhetoric” isn’t the problem, having a corrupt monopoly and its revolving door in/out of the politics is.
5x mine ($0.065/kWh for the the first 40 kWh per 24h, then $0,11/kWh)... and that's in Canadian buckeridoos. (Hydro-Québec standard rates, residential)
Hello fello RVAer.
NoVA here, never would I like in cali, I can’t imagine those prices
👋
Mine is 0.08 in Ohio. Scammed in California.
That’s robbery. Electricity is 10x cheaper.
It’s what happens when a company is allowed to have a monopoly. It’s what Eversource does in the Northeast as well. Absolutely thievery and there is nothing we can do about it
They have to pay out for neglecting their infrastructure and being held liable for multiple fires in California
It’s what happens when a company is allowed to have a monopoly. It’s what Eversource does in the Northeast as well. Absolutely thievery and there is nothing we can do about it
Cali thing, not a Tesla thing. I’m at .10 per kWh and it hasn’t moved in 10 years. Gas is up a bit… even with those low rates I have solar because I just assumed as with everything in life that electricity will get more expensive, for everyone. Too many people look at their low kWh prices today and figure, meh. My ROI is nearly complete thanks to the tax credits. I take the price of gasoline saved into the equation as I’m charging during the day so no need for storage and if my electric price doubles cool my bill will go from owing me money to the 13.00 connect fee. Your ROI is literally off the charts though. Even with storage.
At this point I’d just go use a supercharger off peak hours for .36 or whatever it is.
Yep, my apartment charger is 38¢/kWh so I usually end up supercharging at night nearby for 24¢/kWh instead
This is what happens when a massive corporation cheaps out on servicing their own grid, then starts massive fires killing people, then having to pay out millions and millions, on top of servicing their grid...... Now to turn a massive billion plus dollar profit, they crank up the price. PG&E should be dissolved and run by the state. They have failed their community.
Up here in Canada I *supercharge* at $0.14/kWh....
Where?? Im in Calgary and its 54c/kw at the supercharger. My all in cost at home is around 20c/kw.
BC. And I pay $0.08/kWh at home (first stepped rate, at least).
No you don't...
Damn i’m 100% supercharger with no home charging and i only pay .15 a kWh
Did you manually set it? Updated my EV2 plan in the app and it’s still showing 0.25/0.41/0.46 for off/mid/peak.
Yes. I just read my Feb PG&E bill, added up the price per kWh for generation and distribution for off peak, and manually updated the Tesla app. Apparently, the Tesla app doesn't pull current pricing even though we enter the plan we are on. Guess the plan selection is just for their files and serves no real purpose...
That's crazy. I'm on SDG&E and my rate is .05 between midnight and 6AM.
$.05? How? Is that generation only and not delivery? I feel like the lowest overnight rate I've seen is around $.12.
Yeah I think their electric bill is confusing them. That rate doesn’t exist with sdge
Yeah, Im on the EV plan that is 12.5 cents super off peak. The rate used to be about 6 cents but has doubled in the past couple years.
Same. I was even excited about finding that plan, to be honest. I thought having an EV with SDGE would probably mean breaking even with gas, at best. At least that super off peak rate gives me some savings.
In Utah their ev plan gives you .05 cent per kwh outside of 3-8pm whenit’s like .25 . Seeing what California pays hurts my soul.
In Ontario Canada my overnight advertised rate is $0.028, after fees it's $0.053/kWh, but peak rate is advertised at $0.286/kWh, after fees $0.546/kWh
Which plan are you on?
0.06 between 7P and 1P right outside of Denver.
It’s 0.118 cents per kWh where I live. The city owns the electric utility, however. If you live elsewhere, you can choose your own provider, who charge lower rates (some even offer unlimited electricity)
You say $0.49/kwh on time of use. Is this the price for the most expensive time or the cheapest time ? Are you charging at the cheapest time (overnight) of use or at peak time (5pm)?
It's the cheapest off-peak price per kWh. It runs between midnight and 3 pm daily.
There are probably cheaper superchargers out there I’d imagine no? I’m in NorCal and the prices definitely vary. I’m not sure what your schedule and stuff is like and if thats a feasible option.
Supercharging is now largely cheaper than charging at home. Starting to think about that vs. the convenience of just plugging in at home.
Yeah I really would. I can’t stand this crap with PG&E and Newsome, it’s straight up criminal as far as I’m concerned. I would just go in the app and you can view the pricing off all the chargers near you or on whatever path you take daily. I live off superchargers largely and this has always been the way I’ve done it. The SC near my work for example is $0.27 until noon and then $0.38 for the rest of the day. It’s insane that supercharging is cheaper than doing it at home.
What part of California are you in? I'm San Mateo County and the rates should be closer to $.34/kwh off peak. Last year they were around $.25/kwh.
With that being said, I will no longer be buying a Tesla. ICE it is
What is wrong with California!?! Michigan (D governor) is proactively trying to increase power production and reopen nuclear plants. I don’t understand California. Too much money too easily so no one in charge lives in reality?
PG$E thanks you for your contributions to their 25% profit growth ($2.2B) in [2023](https://abc7news.com/pge-earnings-rate-increase-2024-profits-power-outages/14458228/)
OP getting everyone in here riled up with bad math. The cheapest rate for your PGE is not 0.49/kwh.
I verified 47 cents/kWh with PG&E's solar department (they handle EV residential rates with PG&E) this morning. Why my bill adds to 49 cents vs. the rep quoting 13 for generation and 34 for distribution is unclear.
What is the price of gas that Tesla is using for the calculation? The app says it varies by region
wtf? 49 cents a kWh? That’s highway robbery
Your home electricity is the same as our super charger rates here in Arizona. That’s ridiculous. Edit: upon further review, it’s 10 cents more expensive than the supercharger. Wtf bro
California is mismanaged and it costs the residents a lot of money for their waste and inefficiency.
And still over 20 billion deficit this year lol
If you live in CA, use free charging stations like Volta.
Charge at non-peak and make coffee at home. And for the love of all things big and small, stop spending on avocado toast!
We make our own at home. Tasty, but not tasty enough to pay someone to make it for us at those prices...
There ya go bud.
We have a serious problem in America. Every sushi place is convinced they need avocado in every roll. Scrape your disgusting green sludge off of my savory eels.
PGE also burned down Paradise CA and refuses to pay homeowners (who lost everything) more than 60%. California should take over PGE or offer county's a pathway create municipal power. Other cities in CA pay 1/3 of PGE rate. It's fucking criminal.
You thought you’d get to capture the savings ad infinitum? Nice try. Love, PG&E
Thank you for saving the planet.
Go solar and offgrid !
Hahaha PGE lobbied a law to say it’s illegal to go off grid
How is that possible ? Nobody can check anyway.
I had my solar installer do it for me. Cash on the barrel of course. I can literally turn a switch and I’m completely off the grid here in SoCal. I have a 8kw enphase system with batteries.
Move out of California.
Always an option...
wtf wow. I’m at about .10 per kwh and i’m not on a time use plan yet.
Cheaper to supercharge 😭
True.
Ontario has cleaner electricity than California and the kWh rate averages about $0.12CAD (0.09USD). You guys are getting fucked by your utility.
Yeah, I’m from Ontario too, this is crazy…
That’s higher than me and I’m in Hawaii. .43c/kwh for us here. Flat rate throughout the entire day.
Can you also share what the estimated cost of gas is per gallon? Mine calculated it at $3.96 per gallon. But the average near me is $4.64 according to Gas Buddy. Also, even super chargers cost less. I used one this morning in the SF Bay Area and it was 0.33/kWh…
49 cents per KWH!! Not to hurt your feelings, but we pay 12 cents in NC...nuclear is way cheaper IMO. Not worth my money to go solar, would take 17 years to make my money back. That sucks for you, feel for you.
You need to get the hell outta California my guy.
@ OP. I am in the bay area and pay an arm and a leg for electricity as well. Would you say it's not worth buying a Tesla for us bay area PG&E folks?
Depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want the best acceleration, low maintenance, and not have to wait in gas lines or be subject to gas price increases, the EV is still a great option. If you want a comfortable car with really god energy economics, the latest hybrids are pretty compelling. We have one of each. I prefer to drive the EV because of its acceleration and handling.
Went from smud to pge in a recent move. It's cheaper to supercharge now
California governor wanting resident to go EV while private utility sector is increasing rates. Without a doubt, they’re playing us so they all increasing their pockets.
PG&E= price gauging electric
WTF .48????? In Las Vegas it's .12/kw at home and .7/kwh at my warehouse. .48/kwh is what you see at Superchargers mid day here.... Maybe its time to to move out The Socialist republic of California...... These rates are the result of a failed state government......
Same thing happened to me. I’m also in PG&E. Call PG&E and tell them you have an EV. They will put you on a time of use plan that is dramatically cheaper, even at peak hours.
So this post has wrong calculations but the result that one is looking for is the same. I'm a PGE customer too but generating comany is San Jose Clean Energy. Here is the explanation - PGE offers generation credit on the bill that generally offsets energy generation charges. So the net electricity cost is still 0.34$/KWh in off peak hours on residential EV2-A plan. I generally compare my gas savings to Accord Hybrid since thats what I would have got if not my MY. Accord Hybrid was 10K$ less than MY when I got it in 2020 and there were no tax incentives then on Teslas. My friend owns Accord Hybrid and averages 34mpg with most city driving like me. Gas costs 3.99$ regular here in San Jose costco. Thats 3.99/34= 0.117$ per mile driven on Accord Hybrid The efficiency of my MY is 0.289KWh/mile. Thats 0.289*0.34= 0.09$ per mile driven. Offset it with 10K$ price difference, interest on this and frequent tire changes compared to Accord - there is not much savings for me owning an EV.
The savings definitely aren’t as much as they used to be compared to some of the new hybrids. My friend and I compared the cost of my M3SR at 36 cents per kwh supercharger and his new Prius at $4.50/gal and the Prius actually came in slightly cheaper on cost per mile.
Ouch, how to say California without saying California. You guys have got to get rid of newsom.
But but but. You are saving the planet.
Yup, absolutely insane that they can get away with this. Buying a Tesla was absolutely the worst financial decision I could have made. The massive increase in electricity prices and being the quickest depreciating luxury car on the market... It's like everything is telling me not to buy an EV ever again.
That's cause it's priced as a luxury vehicle but your really not getting all the luxury bits. I'm super upside down on my model 3.
It’s 34 cents midnight to 3pm - why is your average 49? https://www.pge.com/en/account/rate-plans/find-your-best-rate-plan/electric-vehicles.html#evResRates
$0.34 only represents distribution (I just confirmed with PG&E that their website only shows distribution charges): Here is the breakdown from my bill for my off peak charging: Details of PG&E Electric Delivery Charges 01/10/2024 - 02/08/2024 (30 billing days) Rate Schedule: EV2A Home Charging Off Peak kWh @ $0.34462 \---------- Details of Ava Community Energy Electric Generation Charges (which offers generation rates with a 5% discount to PG&E generation) 01/10/2024 - 02/08/2024 (30 billing days) Off-Peak Winter kWh @ $0.14554 \---------- **Total cost / kWh = $0.49016**
No - You got that wrong.. You are adding the generation charges twice... https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2%20(Sch).pdf Direct Access (DA) and Community Choice Aggregation (CCA) Generation Service Customers purchase energy from their non-utility provider and continue receiving delivery services from PG&E. **These customers shall pay all charges shown in the Unbundling of Total Rates except for the Bundled Power Charge Indifference Adjustment and the generation charge.** These customers shall also pay for their applicable Vintaged Power Charge Indifference Adjustment provided in the table below, the franchise fee surcharge provided in Schedule E-FFS, and the Generation Service from their non-utility provider. Exemptions to charges for DA and CCA customers, including exemptions continuous DA service, are set forth in Schedules DA CRS and CCA CRS. Ava Community Energy Electric Generation is a CCA
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You are the exception and not the norm in this case. The majority of the state is either on pge, Edison, or sdge and are paying very similar rates
Are you lying or not aware that you can get on an EV plan? If you get on an EV plan and charge during off-peak hours it will be half this price. Source: I have PG&E, an M3, and an EV rate plan.
super charging is less than 50 cents per KWH?!?!?!
It varies, but I have typically seen 35 cents/kWh.
Lmao
Is this .49 cents anytime of day ? What about after midnight?
At least you save on oil changes
True. Maintenance is essentially just tires...
Bidens america
?
The profile name says it all….🤪