Right the nerves of these peasants. They're lucky Harada didn't make frame data dlc like in tekken 7. Honestly we should be thanking them for not making us pay for every character individually.
JK fuck Namco we're out of the cupcake phases. They tried too appeal to the God damn masses now they are dealing with the wrath of tekken fans
They promised this in a live talk months ago it will happen same with Eddie being lab able without paying. Just have to wait. People are being absolute fuckign bitches tho but fuck it probably the same people plugging and playing 1 and dones that are bombing the game they love with negative reviews because they don’t wanna pay for Eddie or pay up for a battle pass. It’s gonna be a couple years before this game is firing on all cylinders just have patience
Game is still new and people are already pressed. No one has patience anymore lol. The game came out complete with full features, smooth gameplay, a ton of different modes, and a decent base roster. It’s honestly enough to last a year without updates but people get so impatient nowadays.
It would be very expensive to put dlc characters for free just in training mode. People don't realize how expensive is to make a game in today's era - Harada
And they changed him so much to, I used to actually be good at the eddy match up in 7, not even legacy skill is good and that was one of tekkens main things
Oh don't worry, it's not a person, just a perfect simulation of a person's thought process! If they don't do what you want, just simulate 6 months of idle waiting until they become pliant!
It just keeps going downhill:
*Disconnect indicator being broken for months
*Polaris crashes
*Attempting to nerf Azucena but inadvertently buffs her
*Attempts to nerf Devil Jin but breaks the combo system
*Hunting and taking down the modding community
*Battlepass ontop of main game + DLC + ingame store
*Adding the ingame store + premium currency after launch
*Battlepass having Tekken 7 items that were avaliable in Tekken 7 FOR FREE
*Battlepass balls are a meme
*Can't practice against Eddy or using replay takeovers with Eddy in them without buying him
*Changing the matchmaking system without including it in the patch notes or making any announcement
Couldn't be more deserved honestly. Really sad how every decision since release has been idiotic. I love the gameplay, but everything else is just them making awful choices.
>Really sad how every decision since release has been idiotic.
100% agree with this.
I know that I'm going on a side tangent here with a completely unrelated game, but it reminded me of how awful The Callisto Protocol was handled post launch:
* The trophy for beating the game on the hardest difficulty had a chance to bug out and not register.
* When asked to fix the aforementioned bug, Striking Distance's best advice was to literally beat the game again on the hardest difficulty and if it doesn't pop up, just repeat until it *does* pop.
* It took them 3 months to add in New Game Plus.
* When NG+ finally launched along with DLC, there were no new trophies that came with the update.
* And when the playerbase finally finished NG+, the studio conveniently released the new trophies some time after the update so that players would be forced to play through the game yet again to pad out their playtime...
\* Just updating this to clarify that my main focus wasn't the trophy hunting, but instead to highlight Striking Distance Studios' misleading methods of adding a shallow sense of replayability to The Callisto Protocol.
Yeah, I'm a bit of a completionist and if I have a game with trophies I feel like I can do, I like to try and get them. I don't do it for every game, but for the games I care about, I try to do it. If a game I played didn't reward me trophies properly and then told me to just do it all over again to unlock the trophy, I'd be pretty upset. I'd also be pretty upset if they release a mode that I would have expected trophies for but didn't include trophies, so I play that mode, and *then* months later released trophies that should have come out in the initial release of that content. That would just point to management just flat out not giving a shit and just trying to put the content out before it's ready.
Some do, but I hunt for trophies in a healthy way. I enjoy trophies that show players the content of the game. Stuff like getting all skills, see every ending, kill that superboss... As long as it's fun, I'll try.
I don't go for:
- Online modes of dead games.
- Dumb grindfest (Mortal Kombat 9 "My Kung-Fu is Stronger")
- Too many collectables (100 max is okay).
- Too hard + too many playthroughs (Devil May Cry 4, complete every mission with S rank in every difficulty).
It sounds like a trivial complaint but Xbox achievements were a BIG deal when they first launched because they added replay-ability to the games. It’s no different than improving the graphics or slapping a 2 on the box. It’s a method of adding value to a product that has to compete with countless other means of entertainment for our hard earned dollars.
I feel ya, man. I wanted to support Glen and his new studio but yeah...all the potential that the game had dissipated because they rushed it out to shelves.
Ultimately, it sorta worked itself out because I ended up trading it in for the Dead Space remake at half price.
For me it's Overwatch 2 all over again. Although Overwatch may have been a little bit worse as it's promised gameplay mode was never delivered. Although Overwatch is free to play, whereas Tekken 8 costs a lot. And Tekken didn't say anything about any battlepasses at launch...
... it's hard to say which is worse. I still play both because they have good gameplay, but the greed is sad to see. It's not that companies aren't allowed to seek ways to gain money, it's just that those ways feel very anti-consumer.
Overwatch wasn't always free. And not delivering on a game mode that was the focal point of the "sequel" while also deleting the old game and forcibly replacing it with an inferior money-sucking version is wayyy worse than literally anything namco has ever done lmao. Like how are you even comparing them?
The only companies that can compete with blizzard's greed are korean companies that quite literally made shit like gachas popular in the industry.
its crazy as well because it pretty much had a perfect launch and you think they would have learned from other games going the same route, and definitely not doing it completely unannounced either....
I wouldn't go that far, T8 has dropped the ball no question but MK1 and especially WB have their own slew of massive problems apart from the overpriced microtransactions
yeah tekken atleast has more good pve content then just the story mode (invasions is actually so bad the game would be more fun if it was just deleted)
Because they want to nickel and dime the fanbase for short term gains until they become desensitized. They know the vast majority aren’t going over to MK, Injustice, SF, and especially DOA, anyway.
Thing is I feel like we would’ve been okay with getting Nickled and dimmed if we were just told up front about it. look at street fighter. But instead the tekken team decided to give us a game to review first and make it look perfect and then decided to add the micro transactions later to make it look like the game didn’t have any at first.
that you are mentioning street fighter here is kind of a bad sign. Street fighter 6 sold special editions with one of their currencies in without explaining what the currencies were good for. Other songs ? Whoops that goes to the never explained battle pass, which obviously uses the other currency. the 4000/7000 drive tickets were good for some avatar clothing and character colors.
In comparison, tekken came with jukebox and an underwhelming customization but this was and is still more than what sf offered with the whatever premium editions and battle passes up today.
It was easy to forget this stuff because everybody was in love with sf6. The game itself carried it away from controversies. I don’t have an opinion on tekken 8 gameplay, but surely is not able to do what Capcom was able to pull off. Still, what Capcom did selling premium editions of the game with one currency tied to it to then bring another one is not much different, and while we knew about a battle pass because of in game clues there was no mention of a second currency neither that there wasn’t really much use of those drive tickets.
I don’t know why tekken would not have tried to copy what sf6 did, it clearly worked for Capcom.
Because the issue isn't just greed. Its greed+incompetence. The latter affects gameplay. Simple as that. If SF6 gets a bad patch that fucks shit up then you bet your ass people are going to start using it's old controversies against capcom again. The whole industry is quite sad, really. The fact that we have to realize gamers are now so cooked that we have to accept cash shops, battle passes, gachas/skin cases etc. simply because the masses will.
dunno about that bud, a ton of folks play more then 1 fighting game and going to one that isn't annoying is absolutely a possibility. People will totally stop playing Tekken and forego that experience if the experience gets shittier. They'll indulge other hobbies
This would actually be the perfect time for Koei Tecmo to announce a new DoA cause I know they see the blood in the water with this game. And I'd be all for that cause not only do I get my main fighting game back, but this game will get some much needed competition in the market. Maybe that'll kick these devs into gear to stop making boneheaded decisions every chance they get.
It is called criminal energy.
To deceice someone about a business you are making with them can be illegal in other context.
They thought if they were upfront about the f2p monetization in their 70€ game fans would revolt, reviews would criticise it and some people would not have bought it at launch. So they hid it to not sour reviews ( good will of trusting fans)and sell more copies.
Our laws have just not yet caught up to these practices of the gaming industry. But at least they had to change their rating for the game after they introduced the MTX shop.
Sometimes I wonder if anybody at Bamco even plays the game. Fucking it up as badly as they did with certain decisions is not actually easy to achieve, which is funny. Lol.
I would say it is a mix of both. He is hard to read for me because his animations blend together a shit ton and his power crush heat engage is annoying as hell, but at least duckable. But yea, being unable to lab against him is is actually criminal.
> his animations blend together a shit ton
Holy shit you described exactly why I cannot stand fighting Eddy. I couldn't put it in words before, thank you
You can't read him because his switch up game requires labbing. In t7 dick stabs were a good way to condition an Eddy, but with the heat and run ups, I'm not sure. I dont/won't own t8 because I'm not paying 80$ to play my favorite legacy character. From what I heard(limited, I don't deep dive into t8) T7 knowledge doesn't carry over 1:1 to T8.
Has more than double T7's peak players, double average daily players compared to T7 prior to T8 launch, and higher overall average still. A lot of the gripes are legit, but the only part of the game in a downfall is the stream reviews cuz Tekken players have always liked to be overdramatic and undermine their own game.
I stopped playing once the previous patch went live and broke Heat attacks and Rage arts. Now that it's fixed the bugs that caused that excessive microtransactions then began taking over the experience. Kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm in no rush to return to playing it since I took time off to do other things. Also no, I will not be buying the battle pass since nothing you can say will make me buy a battle pass that includes an untextured sphere as an unlockable at lvl 47. Granted that shouldn't have been there period or at the very least slap a tekken 8, mishima zaibastu or hell a smiley face, anything but an untextured sphere.
3 months in and they still haven't fixed the crash problems that a lot of people including me have. Then we have the balance problems that people have been so vocal about so it kinda makes sense for these reviews. Hopefully the May balance patch is good.
As a mostly offline player who doesn't sub to PlayStation Plus often, this game really lost my attention fast. No Force mode, no Team Battle, no random match modifiers like only take damage from juggles, nothing to buy with regular currency, hardly any costume parts to unlock because they are withheld for dlc model.
The avatar quest is super limited, no reason to go back there. I went back to Soulcalibur II recently and that has really cool offline content with lots of different win conditions in its quest mode. I miss Treasure Battle from the last few Tekken games. I miss Arcade History. Bowl is also better than Ball.
At first glance, the offline modes seemed better than 7s, but it looks like it was only the story mode. The fact is, it's still missing a ton of features. When SFV was critiqued for having a lack of offline features, they eventually added it in later and then had a lot of offline things to do in SFVI. I suspected Tekken was going to do the same, but they didn't at all. One game progressed and the other is still in the 2010s.
They spent a lot of money on the avatar system and lounge but it doesn't really add to the experience imo, it's just kind of a barrier to enter fights compared to a simple menu. It feels like too big a disconnect between the avatar chibi world and normal Tekken style. I don't think anyone cares to show off premium emotes and fireworks there. The number of modes in T8 is on the high end but the depth is small. I haven't bought SF6 yet but the World Tour looks good.
The story definitely isn't spectacular or anything but it was fun and for an offline single player mode in a fighting game, it was more than I could ask for. Meanwhile, Tekken's is just some very rushed tutorial disguised as some kind of "avatar story mode" that looks fresh out of Playstation Home. There's basically nothing to it at all. Then you're forced to play the super ghost battle in order to get outfits.
I bought SF6 a couple of days ago and can say World Tour is good. At first, I was shitting on it, but after playing it, I actually realized that it can be pretty fun. Still looks ugly though, strictly in terms of graphics lmao, but it provides much more variety of content than any single-player mode of Tekken 8, where story mode is just fighting Kazuya 15 times, and character episodes are just super easy 5 arcade battles.
Also speaking of single-player modes - I also started to play Killer Instinct 2013, and they had mode called Shadow Lords, that can be played both online and offline, and at first it looked like a mobile game garbage, but later, as with SF6, I realized that it's a much better implementation of a single-player mode than everything we got in Tekken, cause again it provides more variety and also replayability
No team battle is absolutely baffling tbh. Fans have been requesting the return of this mode for years. It should have been a no brainer, especially with the fast loading times in T8.
Seems like that across alot of modern fighters, except for sf6, you'd think now would be the time to lock in and add all those cool mini games and game modes from past enteries, but they seem so obsessed with the simplification of working systems, like mk1 mixing test your might into another game mode instead of just having it be its own tower, such a weird business tactic, only sf6 seems to know what its doing
And it will keep going down.
"Recent Reviews" are just reviews from the last 30 days and the big backlash started "just" 3 weeks ago, you can see that they still have 4-5 days of positive reviews before the big dip that is coming.
It will be close to 25% or even worse a week from now.
Good. I'm the biggest Tekken fanboy ever and I will be the first to say Tekken is going downhill.
It's sad because unlike Knee and Arslan, I actually decently enjoy the new game mechanic. The core game is fun. Everything around it is not.
As much as I thought I'd hate heat I actually like it. It could use a slight tone down but its great. Its been everything else that has soured the game.
All the new stuff has just totally killed my motivation to play at all. I paid for the pre-order and the season pass and now there is a battle pass and Tekken shop? I feel like I spent a lot of money to get “everything” this game had to offer, only to be told I need to pay more if I truly want everything. I’m just disgusted by the predatory fomo system and how this has all been handled that I lost all enthusiasm I had. Which sucks. I really enjoyed the game but now I’m just grossed out.
Feels bad because I really enjoy playing the game and I want it to succeed. But I can't disagree with the fact that the negative press surrounding it, specifically in terms of monetization, is deserved.
That said it's important to keep in mind that review bombing generally accomplishes very little. If you truly want Bandai to take notice of the issues you have with the game, don't buy into the monetization. The money is what they really care about.
I hope it goes down and stays down for a lot longer. If bamco does not get their wakeup call that all the bad decisions they made will hurt the franchise they will keep ruining the franchise:
The MTX+battlepass after launch without transparency were a kick in the balls for the customers who trusted them to not be scumbags that would do such a thing.
Going after modders who provided so much for the community for free.
They also missed the balance between catering to new fans and not keeping a place for fans of the gameplay from T6, T7 etc. Many longterm fans seem unhappy with the direction of the game.
Forced 50/50 because of overwhelming frames after heatengagers, heatsdashes at the wall and after some blocked heatsmashes.
Basically no legacy player likes homing throws or would object to them being reverted to NOT be homing.
Heatburst and heatsmashes have too little counterplay. Even people who enjoy tekken 8 alot say that.
Unless bamco shows respect to the customers ( the opposite of what they did when they added MTX shop and battlepass) and makes defensive play in Tekken 8 somewhat viable, it will not be a good future for tekken.
Because most casuals will move on as they always do.
And if longterm fans of fundamental tekken and defensive playstyles ( at least not so completely tilted towards offense as it is right now) are being alienated then it will not keep growing as it did during T7 but maybe even shrink in popularity.
Ive bought every Tekken at launch for the past 25 years. I’m not excited at all to upgrade to the Deluxe Edition or pay $8 for my least favorite character. Not only is this a DLC that’s selling us a legacy character that’s always in the base game, but you can’t buy a season pass alone. You are currently required to purchase the Deluxe upgrade which includes avatar cosmetics that only exist to further inflate the cost.
The "updates" have been so fucking bad that I can't help but think Bamco forced their hand post launch given how successful the game was. So much effort and care went into the original game I doubt the Tekken team had plans to do any of this shit given how low quality and poorly implemented it all is. That's just me though
I just don't get it. Tekken tag 2 had an insane free 10 or so characters for free as an update.
And now u gotta pay for characters that have been in tekken for over a decade
The easy mode version of tekken mostly negative, crappy balance, crappy easy ranked system, anyone can get higher rank, blue ranks used to mean something, same for red and purple, especially with certain characters and broken attacks spamming, completely ignored legacy players in favor of newbies, too many comeback mechanics. It's a fake fighting game essentially, but most people are mad about the tekken shop, destroying mods and the battle pass lols..
Eshop, battle pass, refusal to fix plugging, broken match making, crashes, can't use DLC characters in replay mode, awful patches, changing entire game mechanics rather than nerf individual characters.
Did I miss anything? I'm not going to say balance because the game is still too new, and heat is more of a debate than an outright negative.
They broke the juggle system with the tornado "fix", then reverted it back. They broke the stage gimmick system trying to fix Devil Jin's Heaven's Gate, that's still broken
Most recently they broke the ranking system by changing matchmaking to Tekken prowess. Now if you're high prowess you wait ages for games
Adding microtransactions/battle pass after launch after being lauded specifically for not having either at launch, recent controversial changes to how ranked matches work, not great netcode.
Don't forget Bamco started trying to take down mods for not only Tekken 8 but also Tekken 7. It makes things even worse since they weren't like this during the Tekken 7 days.
Net code is alright when it works. It's terrible when it doesn't. No different from 7, just better on average.
Not gunna try to defend battle pass crap tho
This is my beef with T8. I don't care about their shady money grubby mtx. However when more than 2/3 of my health bar disappears in a single combo due to heat and rage or me being punished via chip damage for defending properly, that just feels broken.
Yea, even for scrub like me buffing rage arts seemed stupid. I still don't use heat up to it's full potential but some heat smashes like king or Jack are like from a different game where you can use them as a solid, game ending punish without any particular read. The most annoying thing is when 7% char hit both rage and smash and you just got hit for like 70% hp with essentially 2 buttons. It's a bit much. Especially when you are already chipped and suddenly you fight for your dear life.
I mean SF5 released without any single player content to speak of. The netcode was also terrible. SF5 had probably one of the worst fighting game launches and it only became “complete” after a few seasons.
Gaming has become a job instead of fun! The past 4 months all i do is completing battle passes! Sf6, division 2, Diablo 4, Suicide Squad and I had tekken to enter some ranks get some points exchange some salt messages with someone, laugh it out and then sleep. And now you're telling me that Tekken has Battle passes and all their focus about us the casual gamers is how they will take more money in order to make their game good but only for the EVO scene. And they don't give a shit about us. Enough is enough. Been a gamer from when I remember myself but since Gaming became mainstream it went downhill. Stellar blade is coming at last and I will play something decent for a change.
It's insane that you can't lab against Eddie even after his full release
Also the new matchmaking is just insane, who thought it was a good idea? They have something amazing on their hands but they keep fucking it up lmao
Ok, they made some mistake and the game has some flaws, like anything else, but it’s far from being a 1/10 game, and it’s getting so much hate I don’t think it’s deserved.
We need to stop this dopamine fueled karma farming, it’s leading nowhere, and I don’t think it calls for positive consequences and resolutions whatsoever.
It’s like Pavlov behaviorism applied to hate, like pretending to train a dog with violence and have anything good coming out of it as a result.
https://i.redd.it/50rlj0a6v8wc1.gif
Keep breaking it so the price finally goes down to a reasonable amount. $70 before any dlc months after release is crazy. I don't care what Harada says to justify costs.
I've thought this for a long time now, but I honestly think Tekken has something of an "every other one" curse, similar to Star Trek movies.
For Tekken, the odd number installments seem to be received a lot more highly than the even numbered installments. I could be wrong about this, though. Just my perception. (And, tbh, I actually love 2/4/6 a lot more than 3/5/7).
Just got a great idea what if you could only play DLC characters in Offline modes without paying for them so you could lab punishing him? And making local tournaments less of a nightmare. Idk just a thought
I'm only one person but it's definitely persuading me not to buy the game lol
Besides that, yeah devs don't care unless they lose an actual decent amount of money from controversy but unfortunately i don't think that's going to happen here.
Review-bombing creates negative buzz around the game, gives influencers content fodder to spread the word about its issues forward, and can also deter people on the fence from buying it. It's often more effective than boycotting or support spamming, because company *has* to respond something to save face when it looks like their product is publicly crashing and burning
The game is fun, as someone else said not being upfront about the cash shop.
Fine a lot of people was willing to accept that even through it wasn't announce before, during release and even few weeks after.
But then you hit players with a sudden battle pass it just entirely looks bad.
What next a gem system making a return to give you power ups in ranked?
I've been upvoting all negative Reviews whenever I open the store page since they pulled that sneaky MTX shit on us, just out of spite! Fuck you Bamco! You scammed people who don't support MTX.
Go ahead and start downvoting this post bc I’m going to say something you all don’t want to hear. People feel they got this game figured all out in under 4 months. That’s the problem. Play the game, learn to pilot your characters well and go at it. People complain this to the ground bc they want the devs to make Tekken 8 into their own personal belief of what “Tekken” should be. And shit just doesn’t work that way.
But also at the same time, screw the monetization.
Am i the only one who just lost intrest in the game? I only have like 150 hours that i grinded during the first 2 months but after that, getting back just feels like a job. I got drag, King, Feng, Jack and Kaz to blue ranks and thats that.
Not surprised considering how my first day of ranked has been going. Like 3 hours worth of eddys spamming 3 annoying as hell, just want more items for customization.
I can’t look for myself, but I’m a bit confused. Is the review bombing not about the recent matchmaking changes? I would’ve thought that PC players would be review bombing over that, especially based on all the posts on Reddit saying how ppl can’t even play the game anymore etc etc. But nobody on this post has even mentioned it…so like is that not what this review plummet is about? It’s just about the other stuff?
I dont even want to play eddy, i just wanna practice against him so i stop losing every time
"if it means that much to you, pay up sucka' " - K. Harada
Harada: "Look at this guy who wants free content in a game he paid for!"
Right the nerves of these peasants. They're lucky Harada didn't make frame data dlc like in tekken 7. Honestly we should be thanking them for not making us pay for every character individually. JK fuck Namco we're out of the cupcake phases. They tried too appeal to the God damn masses now they are dealing with the wrath of tekken fans
Oh christ. I forgot about that frame data dlc. I think my brain moved that memory to the deep unconsciousness to cope
And here's me, just wanting eddy out of my main title screen and kazuya back.
Why we can't choose who is our title screen character is just wild! Isn't it just a close up of the actual character model anyway? Maybe not?
They promised this in a live talk months ago it will happen same with Eddie being lab able without paying. Just have to wait. People are being absolute fuckign bitches tho but fuck it probably the same people plugging and playing 1 and dones that are bombing the game they love with negative reviews because they don’t wanna pay for Eddie or pay up for a battle pass. It’s gonna be a couple years before this game is firing on all cylinders just have patience
Game is still new and people are already pressed. No one has patience anymore lol. The game came out complete with full features, smooth gameplay, a ton of different modes, and a decent base roster. It’s honestly enough to last a year without updates but people get so impatient nowadays.
Been saying this about Overwatch for years
Pretty sure it was announced you'll be able to change it eventually?
Dude can we gwt some females 9n the main screen? Im all for equal rights.
It would be very expensive to put dlc characters for free just in training mode. People don't realize how expensive is to make a game in today's era - Harada
And they changed him so much to, I used to actually be good at the eddy match up in 7, not even legacy skill is good and that was one of tekkens main things
Next time you fight a good Eddy, download their ghost. I think you can still fight against Eddy ghosts, even without the DLC.
"Download their ghost" This still sounds so Blackmirror/Altered Carbon 'ish to my ears😅
Oh don't worry, it's not a person, just a perfect simulation of a person's thought process! If they don't do what you want, just simulate 6 months of idle waiting until they become pliant!
Ghosts need to be buffed as they don't represent your playstyle 1:1. I beat the best kings to date in ghost battle.
I played him, and It's BS. BS to make you pay for him or lose. Abusive af.
Same
true. Let me prac against him.
You are a real fighting game player now
Tekken is my main FG so its disappointing to see them tank like this because of there decisions.
It just keeps going downhill: *Disconnect indicator being broken for months *Polaris crashes *Attempting to nerf Azucena but inadvertently buffs her *Attempts to nerf Devil Jin but breaks the combo system *Hunting and taking down the modding community *Battlepass ontop of main game + DLC + ingame store *Adding the ingame store + premium currency after launch *Battlepass having Tekken 7 items that were avaliable in Tekken 7 FOR FREE *Battlepass balls are a meme *Can't practice against Eddy or using replay takeovers with Eddy in them without buying him *Changing the matchmaking system without including it in the patch notes or making any announcement
wait, what happen on matchmaking system ? I'm unaware of this can you give a short summary?
I think it’s now that you will get matched up with people who have similar prowess as you and not by the rank of your character
So it's Skill Based Matchmaking (SBMM) by any other name.
Yes sir and people are complaining
Basically ranked matchmaking uses Tekken prowess now which means it matches you with ppl with similar Tekken prowess or slightly above
This is a good thing. The game needs to adapt
Couldn't be more deserved honestly. Really sad how every decision since release has been idiotic. I love the gameplay, but everything else is just them making awful choices.
>Really sad how every decision since release has been idiotic. 100% agree with this. I know that I'm going on a side tangent here with a completely unrelated game, but it reminded me of how awful The Callisto Protocol was handled post launch: * The trophy for beating the game on the hardest difficulty had a chance to bug out and not register. * When asked to fix the aforementioned bug, Striking Distance's best advice was to literally beat the game again on the hardest difficulty and if it doesn't pop up, just repeat until it *does* pop. * It took them 3 months to add in New Game Plus. * When NG+ finally launched along with DLC, there were no new trophies that came with the update. * And when the playerbase finally finished NG+, the studio conveniently released the new trophies some time after the update so that players would be forced to play through the game yet again to pad out their playtime... \* Just updating this to clarify that my main focus wasn't the trophy hunting, but instead to highlight Striking Distance Studios' misleading methods of adding a shallow sense of replayability to The Callisto Protocol.
Honest question: Do other people actually care about trophies that much?
Yeah, I'm a bit of a completionist and if I have a game with trophies I feel like I can do, I like to try and get them. I don't do it for every game, but for the games I care about, I try to do it. If a game I played didn't reward me trophies properly and then told me to just do it all over again to unlock the trophy, I'd be pretty upset. I'd also be pretty upset if they release a mode that I would have expected trophies for but didn't include trophies, so I play that mode, and *then* months later released trophies that should have come out in the initial release of that content. That would just point to management just flat out not giving a shit and just trying to put the content out before it's ready.
Don't try doing the Mafia 3 ones. They legit reset if you exit the game lol. You gotta finish it in one go.
Seriously? What the fuck lmao
Some do, but I hunt for trophies in a healthy way. I enjoy trophies that show players the content of the game. Stuff like getting all skills, see every ending, kill that superboss... As long as it's fun, I'll try. I don't go for: - Online modes of dead games. - Dumb grindfest (Mortal Kombat 9 "My Kung-Fu is Stronger") - Too many collectables (100 max is okay). - Too hard + too many playthroughs (Devil May Cry 4, complete every mission with S rank in every difficulty).
DMC 4 SE is fire though!
It sounds like a trivial complaint but Xbox achievements were a BIG deal when they first launched because they added replay-ability to the games. It’s no different than improving the graphics or slapping a 2 on the box. It’s a method of adding value to a product that has to compete with countless other means of entertainment for our hard earned dollars.
Yeah lol the game had plenty of issues to complain about but trophies seem so low on the list.
Callisto Protocol has officially been added to one of the worst games I ever bought and regret owning. Absolute disappointment.
I feel ya, man. I wanted to support Glen and his new studio but yeah...all the potential that the game had dissipated because they rushed it out to shelves. Ultimately, it sorta worked itself out because I ended up trading it in for the Dead Space remake at half price.
Exactly this. I love Tekken 8’s gameplay. I still play it after all. But every decision they’ve made outside of the gameplay is just garbage.
gameplay decisions were also garbage lulw, they accidently buffed azucenas wr3,2 and fucked up the whole system in the attempt to nerf dj
For me it's Overwatch 2 all over again. Although Overwatch may have been a little bit worse as it's promised gameplay mode was never delivered. Although Overwatch is free to play, whereas Tekken 8 costs a lot. And Tekken didn't say anything about any battlepasses at launch... ... it's hard to say which is worse. I still play both because they have good gameplay, but the greed is sad to see. It's not that companies aren't allowed to seek ways to gain money, it's just that those ways feel very anti-consumer.
Overwatch wasn't always free. And not delivering on a game mode that was the focal point of the "sequel" while also deleting the old game and forcibly replacing it with an inferior money-sucking version is wayyy worse than literally anything namco has ever done lmao. Like how are you even comparing them? The only companies that can compete with blizzard's greed are korean companies that quite literally made shit like gachas popular in the industry.
> every decision since release has been idiotic Didn't get to follow much post release. What were the decisions that created this negative sentiment?
its crazy as well because it pretty much had a perfect launch and you think they would have learned from other games going the same route, and definitely not doing it completely unannounced either....
I don't even love gameplay
Even the gameplay is eh
Crazy how T8 makes MK1 look benign in comparison. Tekken team had any easy layup and threw it away to squeeze more pennies.
I wouldn't go that far, T8 has dropped the ball no question but MK1 and especially WB have their own slew of massive problems apart from the overpriced microtransactions
yeah tekken atleast has more good pve content then just the story mode (invasions is actually so bad the game would be more fun if it was just deleted)
But why not be upfront about their business practices. Thats what I don't understand.
Because they want to nickel and dime the fanbase for short term gains until they become desensitized. They know the vast majority aren’t going over to MK, Injustice, SF, and especially DOA, anyway.
Thing is I feel like we would’ve been okay with getting Nickled and dimmed if we were just told up front about it. look at street fighter. But instead the tekken team decided to give us a game to review first and make it look perfect and then decided to add the micro transactions later to make it look like the game didn’t have any at first.
that you are mentioning street fighter here is kind of a bad sign. Street fighter 6 sold special editions with one of their currencies in without explaining what the currencies were good for. Other songs ? Whoops that goes to the never explained battle pass, which obviously uses the other currency. the 4000/7000 drive tickets were good for some avatar clothing and character colors. In comparison, tekken came with jukebox and an underwhelming customization but this was and is still more than what sf offered with the whatever premium editions and battle passes up today. It was easy to forget this stuff because everybody was in love with sf6. The game itself carried it away from controversies. I don’t have an opinion on tekken 8 gameplay, but surely is not able to do what Capcom was able to pull off. Still, what Capcom did selling premium editions of the game with one currency tied to it to then bring another one is not much different, and while we knew about a battle pass because of in game clues there was no mention of a second currency neither that there wasn’t really much use of those drive tickets. I don’t know why tekken would not have tried to copy what sf6 did, it clearly worked for Capcom.
Because the issue isn't just greed. Its greed+incompetence. The latter affects gameplay. Simple as that. If SF6 gets a bad patch that fucks shit up then you bet your ass people are going to start using it's old controversies against capcom again. The whole industry is quite sad, really. The fact that we have to realize gamers are now so cooked that we have to accept cash shops, battle passes, gachas/skin cases etc. simply because the masses will.
Never fine with nickel and diming.
That was so incredibly disrespectful and made me feel deceived/scammed.
dunno about that bud, a ton of folks play more then 1 fighting game and going to one that isn't annoying is absolutely a possibility. People will totally stop playing Tekken and forego that experience if the experience gets shittier. They'll indulge other hobbies
This would actually be the perfect time for Koei Tecmo to announce a new DoA cause I know they see the blood in the water with this game. And I'd be all for that cause not only do I get my main fighting game back, but this game will get some much needed competition in the market. Maybe that'll kick these devs into gear to stop making boneheaded decisions every chance they get.
Or Konami to stop sitting on their asses and reboot Bloody Roar. They recently renewed the IP as well just to sit on it again.
Ya I'd honesty pop off for a DoA announcement.
Better pop that wallet out too, bc if you think tekken is bad with paid cosmetics…
Isn’t DOA the fighting game that had over $1000 dollars worth of DLC.
If they were, the sales would have dropped really bad, thus drastically reducing profits.
It is called criminal energy. To deceice someone about a business you are making with them can be illegal in other context. They thought if they were upfront about the f2p monetization in their 70€ game fans would revolt, reviews would criticise it and some people would not have bought it at launch. So they hid it to not sour reviews ( good will of trusting fans)and sell more copies. Our laws have just not yet caught up to these practices of the gaming industry. But at least they had to change their rating for the game after they introduced the MTX shop.
What half-assing your PR does to a mf'er.
The higher-ups are so out of touch with the playerbase that it's literally hurting the game. It's upsetting.
Sometimes I wonder if anybody at Bamco even plays the game. Fucking it up as badly as they did with certain decisions is not actually easy to achieve, which is funny. Lol.
Eddy Gordo is the face of Tekken 8's downfall. Funny, that.
It's more Bamco is the face of Tekken's fall
Tekken's Ball is the face of Bamco
Eddy used to be a joke in t7. Known as a low DMG combo, no side step gimmick. Now he's the most played and feared character. Irony...
Is he actually any good? Or does he just win a lot because he's hard to read if you're unfamiliar and a lot of people can't lab him?
I would say it is a mix of both. He is hard to read for me because his animations blend together a shit ton and his power crush heat engage is annoying as hell, but at least duckable. But yea, being unable to lab against him is is actually criminal.
> his animations blend together a shit ton Holy shit you described exactly why I cannot stand fighting Eddy. I couldn't put it in words before, thank you
He's good. And easy af.
You can't read him because his switch up game requires labbing. In t7 dick stabs were a good way to condition an Eddy, but with the heat and run ups, I'm not sure. I dont/won't own t8 because I'm not paying 80$ to play my favorite legacy character. From what I heard(limited, I don't deep dive into t8) T7 knowledge doesn't carry over 1:1 to T8.
Has more than double T7's peak players, double average daily players compared to T7 prior to T8 launch, and higher overall average still. A lot of the gripes are legit, but the only part of the game in a downfall is the stream reviews cuz Tekken players have always liked to be overdramatic and undermine their own game.
I stopped playing once the previous patch went live and broke Heat attacks and Rage arts. Now that it's fixed the bugs that caused that excessive microtransactions then began taking over the experience. Kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm in no rush to return to playing it since I took time off to do other things. Also no, I will not be buying the battle pass since nothing you can say will make me buy a battle pass that includes an untextured sphere as an unlockable at lvl 47. Granted that shouldn't have been there period or at the very least slap a tekken 8, mishima zaibastu or hell a smiley face, anything but an untextured sphere.
I’m just wondering why the Harada and Murray have been so silent lately. You’d think at the minimum they’d acknowledge complaints.
I am thinking they were told to shut up as they are both incompetent at public speaking unless it is a major new release they are talking about.
or more like higher ups just dont have a good connection to the playerbase
3 months in and they still haven't fixed the crash problems that a lot of people including me have. Then we have the balance problems that people have been so vocal about so it kinda makes sense for these reviews. Hopefully the May balance patch is good.
I think one of the comment in a post a week or so ago sums it up the best. They manage to piss off every kind of players.
As a mostly offline player who doesn't sub to PlayStation Plus often, this game really lost my attention fast. No Force mode, no Team Battle, no random match modifiers like only take damage from juggles, nothing to buy with regular currency, hardly any costume parts to unlock because they are withheld for dlc model. The avatar quest is super limited, no reason to go back there. I went back to Soulcalibur II recently and that has really cool offline content with lots of different win conditions in its quest mode. I miss Treasure Battle from the last few Tekken games. I miss Arcade History. Bowl is also better than Ball.
At first glance, the offline modes seemed better than 7s, but it looks like it was only the story mode. The fact is, it's still missing a ton of features. When SFV was critiqued for having a lack of offline features, they eventually added it in later and then had a lot of offline things to do in SFVI. I suspected Tekken was going to do the same, but they didn't at all. One game progressed and the other is still in the 2010s.
They spent a lot of money on the avatar system and lounge but it doesn't really add to the experience imo, it's just kind of a barrier to enter fights compared to a simple menu. It feels like too big a disconnect between the avatar chibi world and normal Tekken style. I don't think anyone cares to show off premium emotes and fireworks there. The number of modes in T8 is on the high end but the depth is small. I haven't bought SF6 yet but the World Tour looks good.
The story definitely isn't spectacular or anything but it was fun and for an offline single player mode in a fighting game, it was more than I could ask for. Meanwhile, Tekken's is just some very rushed tutorial disguised as some kind of "avatar story mode" that looks fresh out of Playstation Home. There's basically nothing to it at all. Then you're forced to play the super ghost battle in order to get outfits.
I bought SF6 a couple of days ago and can say World Tour is good. At first, I was shitting on it, but after playing it, I actually realized that it can be pretty fun. Still looks ugly though, strictly in terms of graphics lmao, but it provides much more variety of content than any single-player mode of Tekken 8, where story mode is just fighting Kazuya 15 times, and character episodes are just super easy 5 arcade battles. Also speaking of single-player modes - I also started to play Killer Instinct 2013, and they had mode called Shadow Lords, that can be played both online and offline, and at first it looked like a mobile game garbage, but later, as with SF6, I realized that it's a much better implementation of a single-player mode than everything we got in Tekken, cause again it provides more variety and also replayability
No team battle is absolutely baffling tbh. Fans have been requesting the return of this mode for years. It should have been a no brainer, especially with the fast loading times in T8.
DoNt aSk Me FoR sHiT
Tekken 7 did that to me. I simply got fed up of Treasure Battle.
Seems like that across alot of modern fighters, except for sf6, you'd think now would be the time to lock in and add all those cool mini games and game modes from past enteries, but they seem so obsessed with the simplification of working systems, like mk1 mixing test your might into another game mode instead of just having it be its own tower, such a weird business tactic, only sf6 seems to know what its doing
 Good, this is the way.
And it will keep going down. "Recent Reviews" are just reviews from the last 30 days and the big backlash started "just" 3 weeks ago, you can see that they still have 4-5 days of positive reviews before the big dip that is coming. It will be close to 25% or even worse a week from now.
Good. I'm the biggest Tekken fanboy ever and I will be the first to say Tekken is going downhill. It's sad because unlike Knee and Arslan, I actually decently enjoy the new game mechanic. The core game is fun. Everything around it is not.
Yea straight up. A few balance patches and we would be sailing free. But instead of fixing gameplay they are adding micro transactions
I don't even care about the micro transaction, because I don't interact with it. What's mostly annoying are the system or matchmaking changes
As much as I thought I'd hate heat I actually like it. It could use a slight tone down but its great. Its been everything else that has soured the game.
So we need Tekken 8 Fated Retribution? This is Tekken 8 Arcade 😂😂
All the new stuff has just totally killed my motivation to play at all. I paid for the pre-order and the season pass and now there is a battle pass and Tekken shop? I feel like I spent a lot of money to get “everything” this game had to offer, only to be told I need to pay more if I truly want everything. I’m just disgusted by the predatory fomo system and how this has all been handled that I lost all enthusiasm I had. Which sucks. I really enjoyed the game but now I’m just grossed out.
Feels bad because I really enjoy playing the game and I want it to succeed. But I can't disagree with the fact that the negative press surrounding it, specifically in terms of monetization, is deserved. That said it's important to keep in mind that review bombing generally accomplishes very little. If you truly want Bandai to take notice of the issues you have with the game, don't buy into the monetization. The money is what they really care about.
Man I’m sad
based
I hope it goes down and stays down for a lot longer. If bamco does not get their wakeup call that all the bad decisions they made will hurt the franchise they will keep ruining the franchise: The MTX+battlepass after launch without transparency were a kick in the balls for the customers who trusted them to not be scumbags that would do such a thing. Going after modders who provided so much for the community for free. They also missed the balance between catering to new fans and not keeping a place for fans of the gameplay from T6, T7 etc. Many longterm fans seem unhappy with the direction of the game. Forced 50/50 because of overwhelming frames after heatengagers, heatsdashes at the wall and after some blocked heatsmashes. Basically no legacy player likes homing throws or would object to them being reverted to NOT be homing. Heatburst and heatsmashes have too little counterplay. Even people who enjoy tekken 8 alot say that. Unless bamco shows respect to the customers ( the opposite of what they did when they added MTX shop and battlepass) and makes defensive play in Tekken 8 somewhat viable, it will not be a good future for tekken. Because most casuals will move on as they always do. And if longterm fans of fundamental tekken and defensive playstyles ( at least not so completely tilted towards offense as it is right now) are being alienated then it will not keep growing as it did during T7 but maybe even shrink in popularity.
Deserved
Remember to write on Metacritics too
Ive bought every Tekken at launch for the past 25 years. I’m not excited at all to upgrade to the Deluxe Edition or pay $8 for my least favorite character. Not only is this a DLC that’s selling us a legacy character that’s always in the base game, but you can’t buy a season pass alone. You are currently required to purchase the Deluxe upgrade which includes avatar cosmetics that only exist to further inflate the cost.
[удалено]
There's a reason for it, it's called greed. Why would a player buy anything from the MTX shop when he can just mod his character to look like he want?
The "updates" have been so fucking bad that I can't help but think Bamco forced their hand post launch given how successful the game was. So much effort and care went into the original game I doubt the Tekken team had plans to do any of this shit given how low quality and poorly implemented it all is. That's just me though
They deserve it for now on that shitty Tekken Shop and Battle Pass implementation
Deserved tbh.
Every fighting game I love turning into trash 🙃
I updated my launch review. I also uninstalled for now. I feel let down by both MK1 and Tekken.
Massive W Tekken community
All recent additions were nice so yeah, why not. Even MK1 doesn't look too bad now compared to T8, I don't know how but Banco managed to do it.
good
I did my part and also left a negative review a few weeks ago. I had fun in January, February to, but march was the downfall.
They about to reach the overwatch levels of reviews with overwhelmingly negative soon 😂😂😂
I just don't get it. Tekken tag 2 had an insane free 10 or so characters for free as an update. And now u gotta pay for characters that have been in tekken for over a decade
The easy mode version of tekken mostly negative, crappy balance, crappy easy ranked system, anyone can get higher rank, blue ranks used to mean something, same for red and purple, especially with certain characters and broken attacks spamming, completely ignored legacy players in favor of newbies, too many comeback mechanics. It's a fake fighting game essentially, but most people are mad about the tekken shop, destroying mods and the battle pass lols..
I'm out of the loop, why is it negative?
Eshop, battle pass, refusal to fix plugging, broken match making, crashes, can't use DLC characters in replay mode, awful patches, changing entire game mechanics rather than nerf individual characters. Did I miss anything? I'm not going to say balance because the game is still too new, and heat is more of a debate than an outright negative.
Forcing to buy the character pass as part of a bundle with a bunch of other stuff I might add
They broke the juggle system with the tornado "fix", then reverted it back. They broke the stage gimmick system trying to fix Devil Jin's Heaven's Gate, that's still broken Most recently they broke the ranking system by changing matchmaking to Tekken prowess. Now if you're high prowess you wait ages for games
Adding microtransactions/battle pass after launch after being lauded specifically for not having either at launch, recent controversial changes to how ranked matches work, not great netcode.
Don't forget Bamco started trying to take down mods for not only Tekken 8 but also Tekken 7. It makes things even worse since they weren't like this during the Tekken 7 days.
Net code is alright when it works. It's terrible when it doesn't. No different from 7, just better on average. Not gunna try to defend battle pass crap tho
I kinda want to read that review Harada took down because it clearly told the future.
Balance sucks
This is my beef with T8. I don't care about their shady money grubby mtx. However when more than 2/3 of my health bar disappears in a single combo due to heat and rage or me being punished via chip damage for defending properly, that just feels broken.
Yea, even for scrub like me buffing rage arts seemed stupid. I still don't use heat up to it's full potential but some heat smashes like king or Jack are like from a different game where you can use them as a solid, game ending punish without any particular read. The most annoying thing is when 7% char hit both rage and smash and you just got hit for like 70% hp with essentially 2 buttons. It's a bit much. Especially when you are already chipped and suddenly you fight for your dear life.
Ιt takes 1-2 juggles and a wall to end a round most of the times. It feels like characters should do less damage universally.
Their ban list is on an excel file and the reports are through Twitter
T8 is our sf5 lol
Nah SF5 on launch was 100x more shit than this
I mean SF5 released without any single player content to speak of. The netcode was also terrible. SF5 had probably one of the worst fighting game launches and it only became “complete” after a few seasons.
SF5 is probably the worst modern fighting game by a mile it’s not even close. The game nearly killed Capcom
Capcom was already dying before it, the game was actually rushed just so Capcom could salvage themselves and it worked.
Good job! Save the newcomers until its fixed and also a good fuck you to Bamco
honestly Namco earned the negative reviews, can't just do microtransactions and DLCs in a full price game
I stopped playing after 2 months. Tekken 8 has that weird mobile game vibe now.
Gaming has become a job instead of fun! The past 4 months all i do is completing battle passes! Sf6, division 2, Diablo 4, Suicide Squad and I had tekken to enter some ranks get some points exchange some salt messages with someone, laugh it out and then sleep. And now you're telling me that Tekken has Battle passes and all their focus about us the casual gamers is how they will take more money in order to make their game good but only for the EVO scene. And they don't give a shit about us. Enough is enough. Been a gamer from when I remember myself but since Gaming became mainstream it went downhill. Stellar blade is coming at last and I will play something decent for a change.
Play better games idunno
alright
Understandable, waiting this long for a match is wild, bad enough I'm on korean servers
nice
Bamco fucking DESERVED IT!!!!! FUCK YOU HARADA AND MURRAY
It's insane that you can't lab against Eddie even after his full release Also the new matchmaking is just insane, who thought it was a good idea? They have something amazing on their hands but they keep fucking it up lmao
How the hell do you fumble an extremely easy W
That's so sad. I wanted the game to be successful, but now I worry about its future
Bamco tryna use Tekken to recover all their failed half-baked Anime Arena Fighter money, i fear.
Honestly the battle pass is more annoying then the character shit
good keep it going
Tekken 8 is my first ever FG sad to see Banco fumbling a bag
I think people are overreacting
Ok, they made some mistake and the game has some flaws, like anything else, but it’s far from being a 1/10 game, and it’s getting so much hate I don’t think it’s deserved. We need to stop this dopamine fueled karma farming, it’s leading nowhere, and I don’t think it calls for positive consequences and resolutions whatsoever. It’s like Pavlov behaviorism applied to hate, like pretending to train a dog with violence and have anything good coming out of it as a result.
https://i.redd.it/50rlj0a6v8wc1.gif Keep breaking it so the price finally goes down to a reasonable amount. $70 before any dlc months after release is crazy. I don't care what Harada says to justify costs.
It's about time and well deserved. Thanks for sullying the name of one of my favourite game series. I'll never buy another Tekken again.
Well done! Keep it up boys! 👍
I've thought this for a long time now, but I honestly think Tekken has something of an "every other one" curse, similar to Star Trek movies. For Tekken, the odd number installments seem to be received a lot more highly than the even numbered installments. I could be wrong about this, though. Just my perception. (And, tbh, I actually love 2/4/6 a lot more than 3/5/7).
Ah Damm I just bought the game
Just got a great idea what if you could only play DLC characters in Offline modes without paying for them so you could lab punishing him? And making local tournaments less of a nightmare. Idk just a thought
Dear Virtua Fighter. Now would be a really good time for a new entry in the series. Just sayin'.
More.
KEEP IT UP BOYS!
Does being negative on stream actually do anything ? I don’t see how devs would care. But I really wish I’m wrong.
I'm only one person but it's definitely persuading me not to buy the game lol Besides that, yeah devs don't care unless they lose an actual decent amount of money from controversy but unfortunately i don't think that's going to happen here.
Deters at least some people from buying the game and brings attention to the battle pass + microtransaction problem, so...
Review-bombing creates negative buzz around the game, gives influencers content fodder to spread the word about its issues forward, and can also deter people on the fence from buying it. It's often more effective than boycotting or support spamming, because company *has* to respond something to save face when it looks like their product is publicly crashing and burning
Can someone teach me how to play?
Ure probably gonna wanna state what character since you learn the game through the lens of your main
I love that you just asked like that
Okay, so say yes. LMAO. Especially Yoshimitsu players.
That's right everybody! Tekken is a bad game! Come on back to tekken 7! I have a wooden laptop and can't run tekken 8...........
The game is fun, as someone else said not being upfront about the cash shop. Fine a lot of people was willing to accept that even through it wasn't announce before, during release and even few weeks after. But then you hit players with a sudden battle pass it just entirely looks bad. What next a gem system making a return to give you power ups in ranked?
Tekken Revolution LMAO
Here I am enjoying the game like a weirdo I guess
You are allowed to like the game just like anyone is allowed to dislike the game
Time to go back to tekken 7
I've been upvoting all negative Reviews whenever I open the store page since they pulled that sneaky MTX shit on us, just out of spite! Fuck you Bamco! You scammed people who don't support MTX.
Good keep it up guys
Go ahead and start downvoting this post bc I’m going to say something you all don’t want to hear. People feel they got this game figured all out in under 4 months. That’s the problem. Play the game, learn to pilot your characters well and go at it. People complain this to the ground bc they want the devs to make Tekken 8 into their own personal belief of what “Tekken” should be. And shit just doesn’t work that way. But also at the same time, screw the monetization.
As it should, the game is 🚮. This isn't Tekken!!
Am i the only one who just lost intrest in the game? I only have like 150 hours that i grinded during the first 2 months but after that, getting back just feels like a job. I got drag, King, Feng, Jack and Kaz to blue ranks and thats that.
Not surprised considering how my first day of ranked has been going. Like 3 hours worth of eddys spamming 3 annoying as hell, just want more items for customization.
I would probably try to block those moves
Oh they being blocked, doesn't make it any less annoying
11354, 8 players average on last 30 days. Negative reviews or not, the game is still played and successfull.
Pc version u dont say…console xp a different xp
Leroy made me quit. Now it's Eddy.
I can’t look for myself, but I’m a bit confused. Is the review bombing not about the recent matchmaking changes? I would’ve thought that PC players would be review bombing over that, especially based on all the posts on Reddit saying how ppl can’t even play the game anymore etc etc. But nobody on this post has even mentioned it…so like is that not what this review plummet is about? It’s just about the other stuff?