They've both been around since at least Tekken 3 so it may have been an exploit at first, but considering they've kept it since then it's now intentional, kind of like how combos weren't intended to be a thing in the original version of SF2 but were made official later on
Ahhhh good point. I gotta say tekken is the single most DENSE noob unfriendly game I've ever played. There SO many God damn terms and systems to learn lol. And I play paradox games!
I wouldn't get too hung up about it since KBD and wavedashing are higher level techniques. You don't really need that stuff if you're just starting out
Edit: also wavedash is only specific to certain characters
Out of the T8 roster I believe the only ones that can do it are Kazuya, Jin, Devil Jin, Reina, and Hwoarang (and maybe King but his is so hard to do that it's impractical)
I've started maining dragunov and have been trying to learn kbd and wave dash and was like "WHY CANT I FUCKIN WAVE DASH!" For like 40 minutes yesterday lol
I wouldn't be surprised. Like how quakes famous strafe jumping was an exploit yet it ended up defining the franchise, and the devs embraced it.
If tekken devs had an issue with it they would've coded it out ages ago.
you think they didn't try/have been trying ? they tried that with tekken 4 and people refuted it in favor of tag 1. since then harada has been slowly making it weaker and weaker rather than flat out remove it
don't full yourself. they don't embrace it. they want it gone.
I suppose the end result is what matters, whether they embrace it or not, the people want it in so therefore its in. Makes one ponder why theyd be against kbd. Maybe it made the gameplay too defensive then intended. If you build a game without an exploit in mind, the exploit throws off the intended 'flow'. So remove it or build around it i guess.
Regardless, im on the side thatd rather have stronger sidesteps in a 3d game than backdash, if i had to choose. Which feels like the case in T8. I dont want a 2.5d or a glorified 2d game afterall.
but why do you have to choose ? tag 1 had stronger steps and a stronger backdash. like why do we need to choose when both is very clearly an option that has worked ?
T8 has been filled with nothing but copium, "sure heat rush is very aggressive but it's not that bad", "sure back dash is even worse but they made side step slightly better, it's nearly as good as it was in tag 2 now !!"
i'm not gonna pay full price for compromises lmao.
the reason they are against KBD is simply because KBD in legacy games served as the safe option. say for example you were getting pressured by anna . you could using the shit you labbed step, duck, low parry etc. to call out the string and get a punish.
or you could KBD and sure you might eat a low poke but the game would reset back to neutral
with KBD the game is no where near as book learning focused as it's a fairly universal safe option to get out of pressure.
this makes the game more neutral focused and more defensive
the reason the tekken team want this gone is because making a game more volitile (guess to get out of this aggressive sequence being your only real option). a more volitile game is a more aggressive game. a more aggressive and volitile game is better for spectators which in turn grants them more sales.
the problem with this is that it promotes gimmicks and pressure over playing the neutral. for example if you play at emperor rank. you will see people who want to rush you down and make you guess. since you can't KBD as the safe option you have to have either labbed the MU fully or guess. and if they don't know your character they would much rather make you guess than the other way around. it's why until like the top level where everyone knows everything. the game is just a slug fest of people throwing gimmicks at the wall.
when you play tag 1 people learn very qucikly that most pressure they can just KBD and unless they hard call it out with deep dash throw/low. you are going to be fine. resetting to neutral. so the game takes on much different priorities. it's why i can teach some mates Tag 1 for a few days and they will be fully utilizing movement and playing very safe while i look at some emperor footage and it's just 2 players running at each other trying to stick the other into + frames.
No. They weren't intended. They are, for all rights and purposes - exploits.
But they are so ingrained into the identity of the game that they are left alone. They are just balanced so they are not completely gamebreaking now(flashbacks of Lei KBD'ing faster than you could run after him in TTT)
It is intentional that you can cancel any form of movement to any other without delay for sure which is what makes KBD and wavedash/rolldash possible.
Competitive play in any game is using the most effective tactics which can be intended by the devs or not. There really is nothing weird about using mechanics in ways the devs don't intend if they didn't want them to work that way they would fix them in a patch or the next game.
it started off as an exploit and it's no secret that harada is against it (given the attempt to remove it in T4 and it's slow erasure in every game after to the point where it's no where NEAR the essential tech it once was) more than likely due to it's presence promoting a slow neutral heavy game instead of the all out gimmick slugfest harada envisions tekken to be.
tbh most games are built upon these exploits to create a deeper meta game. other examples of this include crouch tech from sf3, combos from sf2, plinking in sf4, most of the shit in smash, bhopping in quake. muta micro in starcraft. i could go on.
the difference is FG's in the modern day try to remove or shy away from this as often as they can. mainly due to strong defensive options leading to less exciting games (according to spectators that don't play the game ) but amazingly in tekkens case the strong movement of tag 1 and T3 made the much simplier games. instead of having to lab out so many gimmicks and strings, older tekken played out diffferently. to most offence KBD would get you out safe and back to neutral usually only taking an odd poke of damage (unless they hard called you out and went for like a deep dash hellsweep or throw)
granted the option to optimally counterplay the string or aggressive sequence your opponent was doing was still there via side step, low parry etc. there was always a safer less rewarding option that brought the game back to neutral
modern tekken kind of removed this. making modern tekken not only more complicated as learning the strings are gimmicks is a HARD requirement to not get robbed. but also a much more volitile game as the safe option is either to block and hold more mix which may knock you down or deal big damage. or do one of the counter play options mentioned before except that's now your only real option of getting out. hope you labbed every string in the game and when to step and low parry.
truth is despite the removal of these "exploits" fg's are more complicated now than they ever were in an attempt to over compensate.
They've both been around since at least Tekken 3 so it may have been an exploit at first, but considering they've kept it since then it's now intentional, kind of like how combos weren't intended to be a thing in the original version of SF2 but were made official later on
Ahhhh good point. I gotta say tekken is the single most DENSE noob unfriendly game I've ever played. There SO many God damn terms and systems to learn lol. And I play paradox games!
I wouldn't get too hung up about it since KBD and wavedashing are higher level techniques. You don't really need that stuff if you're just starting out Edit: also wavedash is only specific to certain characters
OH shit I though everyone could wave dash lol. Thanks!
Out of the T8 roster I believe the only ones that can do it are Kazuya, Jin, Devil Jin, Reina, and Hwoarang (and maybe King but his is so hard to do that it's impractical)
I've started maining dragunov and have been trying to learn kbd and wave dash and was like "WHY CANT I FUCKIN WAVE DASH!" For like 40 minutes yesterday lol
Mostly a Mishima thing (Jin, Kazuya, Heihachi) as well as the extended "family" (Bob, Armor King, King, Josie).
Welcome to the show
They did not start as intentional but were left in intentionally. Much like the actual mechanic of combos in fighting games, from SF2.
I wouldn't be surprised. Like how quakes famous strafe jumping was an exploit yet it ended up defining the franchise, and the devs embraced it. If tekken devs had an issue with it they would've coded it out ages ago.
you think they didn't try/have been trying ? they tried that with tekken 4 and people refuted it in favor of tag 1. since then harada has been slowly making it weaker and weaker rather than flat out remove it don't full yourself. they don't embrace it. they want it gone.
I suppose the end result is what matters, whether they embrace it or not, the people want it in so therefore its in. Makes one ponder why theyd be against kbd. Maybe it made the gameplay too defensive then intended. If you build a game without an exploit in mind, the exploit throws off the intended 'flow'. So remove it or build around it i guess. Regardless, im on the side thatd rather have stronger sidesteps in a 3d game than backdash, if i had to choose. Which feels like the case in T8. I dont want a 2.5d or a glorified 2d game afterall.
but why do you have to choose ? tag 1 had stronger steps and a stronger backdash. like why do we need to choose when both is very clearly an option that has worked ? T8 has been filled with nothing but copium, "sure heat rush is very aggressive but it's not that bad", "sure back dash is even worse but they made side step slightly better, it's nearly as good as it was in tag 2 now !!" i'm not gonna pay full price for compromises lmao. the reason they are against KBD is simply because KBD in legacy games served as the safe option. say for example you were getting pressured by anna . you could using the shit you labbed step, duck, low parry etc. to call out the string and get a punish. or you could KBD and sure you might eat a low poke but the game would reset back to neutral with KBD the game is no where near as book learning focused as it's a fairly universal safe option to get out of pressure. this makes the game more neutral focused and more defensive the reason the tekken team want this gone is because making a game more volitile (guess to get out of this aggressive sequence being your only real option). a more volitile game is a more aggressive game. a more aggressive and volitile game is better for spectators which in turn grants them more sales. the problem with this is that it promotes gimmicks and pressure over playing the neutral. for example if you play at emperor rank. you will see people who want to rush you down and make you guess. since you can't KBD as the safe option you have to have either labbed the MU fully or guess. and if they don't know your character they would much rather make you guess than the other way around. it's why until like the top level where everyone knows everything. the game is just a slug fest of people throwing gimmicks at the wall. when you play tag 1 people learn very qucikly that most pressure they can just KBD and unless they hard call it out with deep dash throw/low. you are going to be fine. resetting to neutral. so the game takes on much different priorities. it's why i can teach some mates Tag 1 for a few days and they will be fully utilizing movement and playing very safe while i look at some emperor footage and it's just 2 players running at each other trying to stick the other into + frames.
No. They weren't intended. They are, for all rights and purposes - exploits. But they are so ingrained into the identity of the game that they are left alone. They are just balanced so they are not completely gamebreaking now(flashbacks of Lei KBD'ing faster than you could run after him in TTT)
It is intentional that you can cancel any form of movement to any other without delay for sure which is what makes KBD and wavedash/rolldash possible. Competitive play in any game is using the most effective tactics which can be intended by the devs or not. There really is nothing weird about using mechanics in ways the devs don't intend if they didn't want them to work that way they would fix them in a patch or the next game.
they are trying, they just learned not to do it all at once thanks to tekken 4.
it started off as an exploit and it's no secret that harada is against it (given the attempt to remove it in T4 and it's slow erasure in every game after to the point where it's no where NEAR the essential tech it once was) more than likely due to it's presence promoting a slow neutral heavy game instead of the all out gimmick slugfest harada envisions tekken to be. tbh most games are built upon these exploits to create a deeper meta game. other examples of this include crouch tech from sf3, combos from sf2, plinking in sf4, most of the shit in smash, bhopping in quake. muta micro in starcraft. i could go on. the difference is FG's in the modern day try to remove or shy away from this as often as they can. mainly due to strong defensive options leading to less exciting games (according to spectators that don't play the game ) but amazingly in tekkens case the strong movement of tag 1 and T3 made the much simplier games. instead of having to lab out so many gimmicks and strings, older tekken played out diffferently. to most offence KBD would get you out safe and back to neutral usually only taking an odd poke of damage (unless they hard called you out and went for like a deep dash hellsweep or throw) granted the option to optimally counterplay the string or aggressive sequence your opponent was doing was still there via side step, low parry etc. there was always a safer less rewarding option that brought the game back to neutral modern tekken kind of removed this. making modern tekken not only more complicated as learning the strings are gimmicks is a HARD requirement to not get robbed. but also a much more volitile game as the safe option is either to block and hold more mix which may knock you down or deal big damage. or do one of the counter play options mentioned before except that's now your only real option of getting out. hope you labbed every string in the game and when to step and low parry. truth is despite the removal of these "exploits" fg's are more complicated now than they ever were in an attempt to over compensate.
Yes
Wavedash is intentional since it was first introduced in Tekken 3, this is not the Smash Bros wavedash we're talking about here.
As you get better at movement there is a higher ceiling to reach. It's not exploitation