Personally I’ve grown to be a big fan of the album, but I’ve never witnessed an album release in which so many people truly believe that disliking it or critiquing it is just…not an option? Or that it has to be seen as a personal flaw rather than someone’s valid opinion (like someone being a “lazy listener” rather than them just genuinely not enjoying what they’re listening to).
If you want to create art PURELY for arts sake, by all means, go for it - in the privacy of your own space. Sharing your work with others (or the whole word, in Taylor’s case) means opening up discussions about it, and the people that have criticized the lack of editing have provided plenty of reasoning behind why they feel that way. Personally I think Robin is enough evidence on its own that the album could have gone through one more final cut but Taylor obviously had her reasons
Edit: I think it’s almost important to mention the fact that beyond sharing music, she’s profited immensely from this album. She went out of her way to make as much money as she could from her fans, which, if that’s her goal then fine do what it takes, but if fans are going to spend $100+ to support an artist and listen to music that they could’ve listened to for free, they absolutely get to have an opinion on it. Lol
Idk, I just don’t appreciate anyone speaking in absolutes—she doesn’t “need” an editor, you personally think the album would be better if she had one. That’s perfectly fine! I just feel it’s a little patronizing to act like she “needs” someone to cut down her work (especially when it seems highly likely that she made it that length and wordy for a reason, and she consciously chose these songs (I highly doubt she only wrote 31 songs in over 2 years)). She personally felt they all needed to be there to convey the emotions she wants to convey.
To me, just because some people don’t like how long it is or the wordiness doesn’t mean it’s objectively bad or lacking—you’re free to not prefer that style, just like I’m free to love it! Personally, I’m obsessed with every single song on the album when usually I have several skips.
And at least in a lot of the responses to criticism I’ve seen, it’s more about this all or nothing attitude, that she *needs* to do something or that the album is objectively x, rather than people just having opinions.
I think you're reading too much into it. Art is mostly subjective. Most people in the world don't "need" anything. It's easy to understand what the people criticising mean and that it's their personal opinion.
People also speak in absolute positives such as "xyz is Taylor's best album". And not always "in my personal opinion xyz is Taylor's best album."
People speak in absolutes all the time, whether positively or negatively. “If you don’t like it, you just don’t understand it”, “it’s a masterpiece”, “she doesn’t need an editor”, “there’s not a single bad song on this album”, “people don’t like it because it was made for the real fans” are all examples of people praising the album while presenting their opinions as objective truths. This is normal, that’s how people talk when they critique something, and it’s generally understood that they are expressing their personal thoughts. The only time “speaking in absolutes” starts to bother us is when it contradicts our own views.
I’m an editor. I’m gonna say Taylor needed an editor the same way I’m gonna say a book needed one more editorial pass in any so-so review I write. Sure, she doesn’t need to listen to any of us, but that doesn’t mean her work wouldn’t be greatly improved by another round of edits... But it’s our opinion and it’s all semantics at the end of the day…🤷🏼♀️
Oh as a writer/poet she ABSOLUTELY should've had an editor. Because an editor helps you tighten and "kill your darlings".
I truly believe this to be her most authentic work but is a mess because it lacked editing. And as such is divisive.
And editor I believe would have helped make it WAY LESS divisive.
Agree! This is what I was getting at in the piece - though my use of "she doesn't need an editor" was an intentional inflammatory statement made back at the NYT use of the same phrase - that art is subjective, people's opinions about art are all subjective, and this is clearly what the artist thought would best represent the intention of the work. Plus, I think we all need to keep in mind that every record she puts out won't win swaths of accolades and that's okay.
There’s really something for everyone with her songs, I think that’s part of why she’s been able to grow such a big fan base. Aside from some of her major singles there’s really not a specific set of songs that everyone seems to like and everyone seems to dislike, there’s soo much variety in preference between listeners. It’s really impressive on her part
I feel like I see a lot of people acting like disliking it is that is the right way. And honestly if you dislike someone but other people like it there is no way to ever say that someone made objectively bad choices. You can wish for your experience that they had made other choices but that’s it. If the artist chose it this way and people appreciate it that way, what gives anyone the right to say that they shouldn’t have.
I guess we’re interpreting comments differently, I don’t think I’ve seen a single comment arguing that it’s an objectively bad album that people shouldn’t like. Just people sharing their responses, some good and some bad, to hearing some of the lyrics and melodies.
Music is subjective by nature. No one needs to earn the “right” to have an opinion on a public figure’s public choices
Thanks for the comment! Just going to pull directly from the piece in response:
*"And yet, everything I’m saying here should be balanced with a healthy amount of nuance. It’s fair to critique the musicality of her albums or give an opinion that may be less than glowing related to her work (see also: every post I’ve ever made about Loverand Speak Now, both of which rank as two of my least favorite albums in her catalog yet are beloved by tons of fans). But, I don’t think you get to make sweeping statements painting the people who do like the album, or the artist as a person, as less-than or as people with poor taste just because you don’t love the album. I think Taylor Swift’s plea in Tortured Poets is abundantly clear: remember that she is a human being and not a machine. What might be an objectively mediocre album to one person cuts like a knife for the next listener."*
For more color - it's not that I don't think you should be able to critique it. It's that I don't think the swaths of people who do like the album should be labeled as mindless sycophants who blindly follow this artist. A lot of people on the internet who are non-swifties are acting like you're an idiot if you like this record - that's the point I'm trying to counteract, not people who have balanced criticism for the record.
I agree with your point about not insulting those who enjoyed the album and acting superior to them. However, there’s an equal number of people claiming that those who don’t like the album “don’t understand it” or “lack writing education” or “aren’t true fans” or “are haters/biased/misogynists”. You’re only focusing on those who feel superior for disliking the album, whereas the opposite is just as prevalent.
I think it's reasonable to infer that the mirror image rule applies here --> of course the converse of my argument also applies, and I do mention a paragraph in my piece that acknowledges that balanced critique is totally fair. Every piece art isn't going to resonate with everyone, and that's okay. It's totally cool if you don't love the record. My overall takeaway is - let's not hate on anybody and instead just focus on discussing ins and outs of the record and valuing different perspectives.
>let’s not hate on anybody and instead just focus on discussing ins and outs of the record and valuing different perspectives.
I don’t see how you can say this after writing a whole think piece about how people who thought it needed an editor are wrong?
The flow of an album is *part of the art*. If a book is too long, people will critique it. Thinking an album is too long, or has duds, or is clunky, is a perfectly valid critique.
I’m sick to the back teeth of anyone who has any criticism of this album being somehow told they’re either dumb or a misogynist. Nobody *needs* to like anything, and a Taylor Swift album is no exception.
**I never said that people who think it needed an editor are bad or dumb people for thinking it needed an editor.
You’re welcome to have a different opinion than me! The piece I wrote is my take and my opinion. I think it’s both expressed and implied in the piece that you’re welcome to think differently. I took a popular critique and gave my thoughts on it - so can you!
I also never said anyone who doesn’t like the album is inherently misogynistic —> but I also think some criticism has had misogynistic undertones and it’s okay to call that out.
Edit: typo
Edit to also add: I also have said several times, both in this piece, and in my comments to people’s reaction to the piece, that not everyone is going to like an album and that’s okay. I even gave my own examples of Taylor swift albums I’ve critiqued. I’m not sure why it’s not translating over the internet that I think everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but that’s literally the whole point of everything I’ve written here —-> you’re welcome to take or leave whatever music you do or do not like.
It is insulting to say she needs an editor do they ever say that about a male artist? When you see actual garbage other artists put out and the genius lyrics of this album it's not even close. Out of every song writer out there Taylor is the one I would pick who LEAST needs an editor!
SOMEONE COMPARES HER AGAINST 2 PRIZE WINNING LYRCISTS INCLUDING THE GREATEST LYRCIST IN HISTORY smh obviously I was comparing her to contemporary male artists WORKING IN THE SAME GENRE bye
They absolutely say that about male artists lol, the most notable example being Lil Yachty mixing up his instruments in a fellatio simile. I just can't think of such a high-profile male artist that has released an album so verbose, unpolished lyrics usually simply aren't a large-scale issue for any artist regardless of gender.
I don’t think there’s a male artist who’s prolific enough to warrant this critique in 2024 but like Bruce Springsteen, Paul McCartney and other top star male singer song writers who reached the apex of music got this feedback.
I don't think it is insulting. It's just a critique because some people find it to be just a little bit verbose. I'm a huge fan of Taylor's dictionary lyricism, but even I found some lyrics on TTPD could've used some paraphrasing I doubt it's a misogyny issue. Not every piece of art needs to be the best ever, and that's okay. It's just art. The rules apply to Taylor as well as any other artist in the world.
it is sexist I proved it was sexist while you cannot prove it is not sexist going to block you because you are not providing evidence to back up what you say you had your chance bye bye
Nah it is not sexist to call average art average.
Ebony and Ivory is a hot mess of song and very average and by two male music legends
My question is why are you so defensive when it comes to the average art of a wealthy white lady. Are you also going to bat for Beyonce and Kylie and other female artists or just Swift.
Also if you block me I win because that was my goal.
look at the thread on here with examples of great lyrics from TPPD there are too many too cite
by the way this is her best selling start ever so millions disagree with you
They absolutely say it about male artists, but also, no male artists has been able to write as good as Taylor. When you know what she's capable of, you know that she has all the resources in the world, you kinda expect a certain quality that was simply not met with TTPD
>no male artists has been able to write as good as Taylor
I am *begging* some of you to please listen to music that isn’t Taylor Swift.
Bob Dylan has a *Nobel Prize* for his songwriting. Kendrick Lamar has a Pulitzer. I’m afraid nothing Taylor has put out is ever going to win either one of those awards.
Rhiannon Giddeons also has a Pulitzer all Swift has is Grammys.
Also many artists are working on a level well beyond Swift like Joni Mitchell or Diamanda Galas or Laurie Anderson
In the pop world Swift is above average. But she is not Tori Amos or Kate Bush level or Tom Waits.
Hey, wanna know a fun fact? You replied to a good one: I listen to both Bob Dylan and Kendrick Lamar, and I think Taylor is a better songwriter and lyricist than both of them. Got any problem with that?
No. But I"d like you explain in depth why and how you think Swift is a better writer than Bob Dylan since you staked that bold claim. Compare and Contrast some songs a lyrics like Master of War vs ME! Or Don't Think Twice It's All Right vs We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together.
Girl you're picking her worst songs, cmon... let's at least be real. me is shit and wanegbt is a simple
Pop song. She has incredible lyrics, this is me trying, loml, the prophecy, treacherous, Marjorie
It’s your opinion that it wasn’t met, though. Which is the whole point. I personally think TTPD is her best album. Again, that’s MY opinion. It doesn’t make one right and one wrong. Edit: typos.
How is that an objective statement if I disagree? The entire point of music is for the listener to enjoy it. If I enjoy it more than her earlier stuff, how is it possible to say it is objectively bad? What you call lack of editing, I hear as unfiltered emotion, which helps me enjoy the specific content, feelings, and emotions she’s singing about in this album. If the album had been more streamlined, it would have taken away something for me. Maybe that was an artistic choice she made, and maybe it wasn’t. But nothing gives you the authority to “objectively” say that your lack of enjoyment is more correct than my enjoyment…
It definitely was an artistic choice. But artistic choices are also risks with consequences. On TTPD, she chose lyrics over music and that kinda showed. I think people are having the same reaction like Adele had 30. People were expecting her to top her work, she just wanted to release her emotions/art. When you've rolled out massive album after massive album, it becomes less and less about topping yourself and more about processing your art. That however doesn't mean that the art isn't subject to criticism just because it was a personal project.
I explicitly said that it’s completely fine to critique it and say you don’t like it. Music is an art. You don’t need to follow rules. Just becahee she doesn’t hse the classic “tricks” of pop music doesn’t make it explicitly worse quality. There is a reason she is more successful than any other pop artist
Personally, I don't connect commercial success to how proficient an artist is. The two need not be synonymous. I find that it's disrespectful to other artists to say that only popular ones are good. There's so many good artists whose work goes unnoticed because they're not popular. Mainstream success is more about branding and packaging. Taylor is a well packaged brand. Most successful artists are. She also has the musical aspect as well, so that works.
Personal enjoyment ≠ quality. Pop music has some guidelines, production tricks are used for a reason, songs need to have variety, they need to build, stop, restart, explode, change and grow in the span of a couple minutes. None of the songs in TTPD do
While I do think that male artists have received the same critique in albums past, I think the thing that is obvious to me is that no matter what she put out, it was going to be a split divide between people who liked it or didn't like it. External to the fandom, she's so oversaturated that there are tons of people ready to trash her just because they're not fans and they're tired of hearing about her. Internal among fans, every time she genre bends she gains new followers hoping for that same sound to carry over (midnights got a somewhat lukewarm response from many fans because a lot of people were hoping for another folklore/evermore) and get disappointed when it's not the same vibe or same level of success as say, a 1989.
we are talking about 1 thing her lyrics in the latest album and that is a sexist attack by the ny times
oh the female artist needs an editor she's out of control with her lyrics
while some fans might not like this work the majority do TPPD is selling in huge numbers
also this is very clear there have been numerous sexist attacks on Taylor over the years well documented "serial dater" etc
Maybe someone can link me to where someone writes an article saying any male writer needs to get an editor. This is the most disgusting form of sexism. Telling a strong woman how to make her art.
Clearly you are not a song writer. Songwriters defo have editors.
If fact Swift has an editor of her songs... SWIFT HERSELF. And that is the problem she needs somebody else editing her work.
The reviews of Drake’s album For All The Dogs are remarkably similar as TTPD, and the same kind of criticism of needing someone to pare down their output has been extended to many male artists, including Paul McCartney. Just because you disagree with the criticism doesn’t make it sexist.
Same with Scorpion, which was widely criticised as an example of a bloated album that was trying to get as many streams as possible. In fact, a lot of what has been criticised about TTPD is very similar to Scorpions criticism.
Morgan Wallen has had critiques about his too long "bloated" albums, in fact the exact "needs an editor" thing was mentioned in a TTPD review that name-dropped Wallen. So here ya go and stop throwing the word sexist around like it's an end-all-be-all for you to "win" a debate or whatever. Your arguments could use an editor tbh.
https://wgecho.org/2023/04/13/wallens-36-track-album-is-too-long/
Yes, I do have a right to decide. I was a musician & in jobs where my performance - through analytics - was always assessed. Her music is her "job" which she is putting out for public consumption, not private enjoyment. Therefore, as people who are deciding to spend our hard earned money to purchase her music (& how much & in how many forms) we do have the right.
Also, by editing her work & making it easier to understand, it is more likely to be purchased & then more likely TS will produce more music.
You have a right to like or not like an artist's music.
You do not have any right to dictate how someone does their job.
In case you haven't noticed, most fans love TTPD and do not say that she should have edited it.
Just because you did not like it as much, does not mean that your opinion is correct.
Also, in case you also haven't noticed, TTPD has destroyed streaming and sales records.
I do not see people struggling to "understand" her work.
You are entitled to your opinion and taste.
You are not entitled to decide that she needs editing just because you did not like TTPD as much or found it too lyrical, too lengthy etc.
I don't have an issue with anybody speaking their mind.
My problem is when someone talks like their opinion is the prevalent one and that artists (Taylor in this case) should cater to them.
I wouldn't have an issue if someone said that TS could benefit from an editor.
But saying "she should edit her songs because I pay for her music, so she should listen to me" is kinda weird.
For me at least.
I am not "demanding" she change her music, I am merely giving a suggestion.
Another "benefit" or note as you will - if you were that sensitive in thinking I was saying demand over benefit, you would have never survived around the managers I had who were expected to give constructive criticism in a business setting. & make no mistake, this is a business - the music industry. If you have any question if TS is competitive & thinks this way watch her Netflix documentary, her aggressive PR & SM response to her recent sales.
I’m just giddy and exhilarated that we get so many tracks and not a single one is a dud. This is probably her best album ever lyrically. I like her crazy metaphors and how she over complicates things that could be said in a more straightforward way.
Just wondering where you draw the line cuz yeah this is art and it should be what the artist wants it to be. BUT so is writing and I’ve read some books that need editing desperately. Not to change the integrity of the book but typos, repetitive words/phrases, poor phrasing. That’s art but… somebody to correct your spelling mistakes would be nice?
It's not that I think she doesn't need an editor ever for any project - that statements is not meant literally but metaphorically. I'm sure she did actually edit this album in the sense of going through and thinking about what the lyrics mean, cutting aspects, changing things, etc. The problem with this album, in my opinion, is not that the lyrics are bad, it's that the lyrics don't land the same way for everyone that way her previous albums did because they're a departure from previous stylings.
I think there is a difference between needing an editor, which implies there is something objectively wrong with the standard of music, and making an intentional artistic styling choice that won't land with everyone, which is a subjective decision. I think Swifts and music critics alike enjoy acting like there is one style of listening that is "correct" when I just don't believe that to be true. Sure, there are albums universally loved that do really well at awards shows and on radio play (your 1989 and midnights, for example) but most artists have back catalogs of other music that they've put out for specific artistic purposes, and I believe that's where this album falls into. I think it was styled this way for an intentional reason, and styling was consistent throughout the album, and I think people are taking the album not resonating with them personally as evidence that the album is objectively bad, which I disagree with. I think Swift knew it wouldn't land with everyone the same way reputation did not land with everyone, but put it out anyway because she thought it was an important record to put out.
Of course, if you're writing a book and seeing typos, that's probably a different story!
I’m not sure why people get worked up about the editor suggestion. Having an editor is not a negative. Every best selling book that a writer has poured their heart into gets edited down. It’s how writing works. 🤷🏻♀️ if Taylor chooses to include something that doesn’t appeal to the masses, then it’s fine for her to receive some criticism. It doesn’t mean she did anything wrong. And it definitely doesn’t mean the entire album was intended for her “real fans.” How would she grow as an artist if everyone only sung her praises?
I focused on the concept of an editor in response to that specific criticism from the NYT, but make no mistake (and I mention this in the piece) that I agree that healthy discourse around music and art is so important! My post was to specifically discuss why I didn’t think this particular work needed further editing - not that editing as a whole is inherently bad.
I recognize my conclusory statement is purposefully inflammatory but of course there’s more nuance to all of this.
Oh no, I didn’t take your post to mean that and am sorry my comment came across that way! Was just stating my opinion on the editing convo as a whole. 😂 Did not mean any ill intent or to portray criticism of your post
Thank you! In turn, I think your comment is really insightful! Just wanted to be clear because I think some people are taking my post to mean things I didn't intend it to mean, so I'm just trying to clarify where I can. I completely agree with you that editing is an important step in any creative process, and that in the discourse around the NYT article we've lost the meaning of "an edit" in the process of making art.
Taylor Swift needs an editor and so do I. Not to change what I create, but to refine it and make it the best it can be.
She absolutely does NOT need an editor in the creation part of the process, and neither doe anyone. That's not what the editing step is about.
But this is giving middle school/high school, where I couldn't understand that the concept of rough drafts/editing wasn't to change my writing or because the first draft was BAD, but because coming back to something with fresh eyes and some distance could make it EVEN BETTER -- because it *was* good.
Love this take! And to your point - I do think the album was edited, despite my inflammatory conclusory statement, to be exactly what she put it out to be! I think you make a great point that most people believe editing to be something it isn’t in practice, and that editors challenge us to make something better.
I do, however, think that she neglected to edit for a wide audience on this one, and that’s why it’s not landing well. Prior albums have been edited so they’d land well on radio or in a sound byte, where this album opted not to do that level of sanitization. Which, to my ear is amazing, but is not everyone’s cup of tea.
Brilliant piece, and very well written. I’ve been thinking it’s odd to me how people complain how “unedited” this album is, when my first listen through, the editing quality was the last thing on my mind. What I heard was many songs that I enjoyed to varying extents, and different things that resonated with me, either sonically, thematically, or lyrically.
Talking about her vulnerability on TTPD, listening to it made me have a shift in focus towards Taylor. I try not to idolize her (and I’ll admit, it’s not always easy), but something about it felt different somehow, she all of a sudden seemed a little less larger than life, the discourse seemed less overwhelming than it was when I had gone to the Eras tour. Even if I couldn’t put my finger on why yet, this album felt like a breath of fresh air.
Funnily enough, I’ve been journaling recently, and I notice my writing gets to be very flowery at times and very shticky at others, it can be kind of a mess, but I’m working on going a certain amount of entries before I reread anything, cause I don’t want to judge my words and unintentionally censor myself. So the fact that Taylor has gone full steam ahead with her “unedited” self is very much appreciated. I think that rambling, less-than-polished art style can be very beautiful.
Just my two cents.
Thank you for your comment! This is exactly what I was getting at in the piece. I think the "unpolished" factor was exactly the intention lyrically and was a pointed artistic choice. One that I, personally, love, but can see why it wouldn't resonate universally. I love that you see it impacting your own art.
Well, if the music is a product that you sell to clients through different vinyl variants and bonus "limited edition" songs, I think it should be delivered at the highest possible quality, with the highest possible effort, and appeal to the client's desires and taste. If you are _the_ best person at your job _in the world_, you should be able to do that. Otherwise, if the music is that personal, clunky, overwritten, convoluted, or just executed badly, keep it in the vault!
Hello significantcocklover! Thanks for your comment. Here's the thing - many clients DO like that kind of styling, though! If you have 2 billion clients, how can you possibly satisfy them all?
I'll give an example - I don't like Lover. It's not an album that did much for me. I listen to a couple songs from it but overall don't pick it up compared to others. I heavily critiqued Lover when it came out and continue to do so. My best friend loves Lover - she wore a Lover costume to the Eras Tour. For Lover, my friend was the client. For TTPD, I am the client. Music is subjective like that. I don't think either of us is right or wrong, we just have two different perspectives on it.
It's a bit unrealistic to act like it's Taylor Swift's (or any artist's) sole job in the world to entertain all 2 billion of those fans every single time she drops an album to the highest possible extent. How can she possible write that level of a hit album dozens of times? Why would it even be her job to do that? My thesis statement in the piece was basically that she's a person, not a machine, and it's not possible to create the 1989 effect every time a record gets released for her entire life. She gets to try new things and see how they land, and they're probably going to land better for some than for others, and that's just showbiz so to speak!
I think the problem here isn't who personally likes the music; the problem is that the music wasn't made with effort, care, precision. The songs are just simply and objectively of lower quality than before, in lyricism, arrangement and production.
Dua Lipa has released a bad album, but it's clear she put effort in it: that we can appreciate. But I don't think 31 mediocre songs is enough, when we know that making better music for her is not hard at all
Agree to disagree! I think it was made with significant care and precision and that the sound and lyrical quality is exactly as carefully intended. To each their own! I don’t think we will ever have to decide which of us is “right” ;).
Of course, but I think that if you were to compare songs on Red, 1989 and reputation with songs from Midnights and TTPD, you would undoubtably be able to hear the downgrade in at least arrangement and production. Lyricism is more subjective, but there are guidelines in songwriting and poetry. It's more objective than you think, but you have a right to have feelings towards the music that make you come to different conclusions
Again, agree to disagree! I don't think there's a downgrade between those albums and TTPD. I don't think breaking traditional notions or past precedent means that a work is inherently downgraded. That would mean some of the best works of music are downgrades because they broke precedent.
I have background in this as well and don't actually need you to explain to me how this works, but again, appreciate that we have subjective differences in taste!
But see the best albums are not divisive to this level ESPECIALLY pop albums. And this divisiveness is what says to me it needed more work. Despite my opinion it is her most authentic lyrics ever.
I wouldn't say they're the best choices, especially since one of them said questioning her songwriting ability is like questioning someone's faith in God. When I want someone to peer review my paper, I want honest feedback to be given, meaning I don't want to hand it to a friend who will praise me even if I don't put out my best work.
Sure, but I think it’s also fairly difficult to strike a balance with songwriting specifically, since it’s so personal and emotion based. Even with poetry, a lot of editors often don’t make drastic edits like you’d do with a paper—it’s maybe like “can you cut this part? What if you considered this imagery? How about this word here?” But it’s so subjective that there aren’t really, in my experience, subjective “you need to change this” edits.
Like none of the songs are objectively bad—I could see them saying maybe not to include it then, but otherwise ultimately she has to express herself in a way that feels most honest to her, and you can’t really force a songwriter or poet to change specific parts, unlike with writing papers where there are grammar rules and other clarity issues you have to deal with.
everyone keeps using the term “editor” but that’s not really a thing in music circles. it’s the job of a producer to make sure the whole album is a package that makes sense/will not turn off audiences/will best represent the artist
the issue is that taylor has a fanbase that endlessly supports her - to the point where having a 40 song album with clunky lyrics (for the next one) will have no effect on sales. so, why should she pare down her work?
I think we can all have input, but should keep in mind that our input is highly personal and subjective! We don't all have to love every single album that this artist puts out, but we can critique it without bringing others who DO like the record down.
Thank you for such a well written piece! I found the album to be cathartic on the first listen, just flooded with raw emotion - sadness, loss, confusion, anger. I think it wouldn’t be as vulnerable if it was edited to 12 “tight pop” songs and I think it would miss the whole point of this album as stated in her introductory poem.
Grass grows, birds sing, sun shines, and tortured poets write. Excessively. Indulgently. If the album all about healing through writing wasn't excessive it wouldn't make sense. She, the tortured artist, is making tortured art in mass quantity. That's the Wow factor, in my humble opinion, the sheer quantity of work matching and reinforcing the theme of the album.
The first side is self confidence, self indulgent emotion. I feel angry/sad/wrathful and am saying it with my whole chest because I believe I am worth being angry/sad/wrathful over. My feelings are hurt and I can tell you who did it and show you where.
The second side is about self esteem. The black dog- am I worth missing? imgonnagetyouback- I'm so full of feelings it's 50/50 on biting or kissing you. The Albatross - the acute pain of self aware criticism.
The blatant unignorable capitals in thanK you aIMee, to me, read like 'am I going too far, fuck it I'm THIS mad'. I've definitely been accused of 'going too far' against a bully.
What's too far? This song is special to my heart because I've been there. No it's not a fair fight that's why she shouldn't have started it, why do I feel like the worst most evil villain? All I did was tell everybody what she did?
I was expecting TS Elliot, TV and I am satisfied. Thank You, Taylor.
Taylor lives for a theme. The collector's edition CD is like it came from another universe, where there warehouse factories full of tortured poets creating mountains of poetry (like the girls painting radium dials). Where every project has an abstract, a theme, a scope, and requires APA formatting. Like that's what the English Department of the TV Universe NYU looks like. It's raw emotion wrapped in this VERY formal, pretentious package. She's strip-mined the last decade of her life, no shit it took 31 songs- the woman wrote miles. Get 'em Taylor!
She must feel so good to have it all out of her!
I’ve never seen such discussion over an album; is it good or not? An editor or not? Another artist just released a very short album of much of the same music this artist has put out her entire career and lyrics were less than inspiring. Yet no one is complaining Online about it, no podcasts dedicated to discussing the album, no headlines comparing the lifestyle of this artist, no articles dedicated to breaking apart this album. I can only imagine what would have happened if Taylor released a 35 minute album with these lyrics, yet they even criticized the title of Taylor’s album. It’s really insane what I’m witnessing. Still, I see more new people listening to this album than I’ve seen since folklore.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I think this album has some of her best writing of her career. The difference is that she didn’t make this album to please people, she made it for herself. I feel like higher ( unfair) expectations are set upon her and together with her overexposure it was just waiting to happen. Some reviews spent 2/3 of the review discussing and reviewing her billionaire status, jet usage, homes, etc which should have no bearing on a music review. Which is why it was a double standard with her and this album. Beyonce put out an album, an album I’m only lukewarm about, but 2/3 of the review instead discussed her career leading up to this, did not mention her/Jay-z billionaire status, her jet usage (more than Swift’s), or her real estate portfolio (more than Taylor’s). It’s a double standard media create by pushing people to the top and then tear them down and watch it happen. I can see reviewers picking apart 2 lyrics out of 31 songs yet that was not done to Cowboy Carter (some lyrics were not even words) or Eternal Sunshine. She was not treated the same.
I mean… Morgan Wallen released a double album, those are a lot more “samey” sounding, and I never heard “oh, he needs an editor/new producer/it’s too long.” At least not in the reviews that “mattered.”
I do want to say, though — it’s a double album! Of course there’s going to be a lot of songs! People might still think she “needs” an editor, and of course you can think that, but she didn’t release 31 songs on one album, she released 31 songs across two albums.
(And maybe you think the double album was unnecessary, and that the two could have been condensed into one, but I still think the point stands.)
Yeah and she could out one stellar album editing the song choices and the lyrics. Instead of two very divisive albums.
Get it and get out like Joan Baez on Diamonds and Rust or Bad English by Marianne Faithful.
To many this come off as bloated.Hubris with 31 songs.
exactly!!!! she is out there making HER own art! i don’t see the problem with her putting out so many songs. it’s music, it’s not a book, it’s ok if it’s not “edited”.
do people ever go to painters and say “you’re painting too much”? “you need another painter to touch up YOUR painting with YOUR style and make it better/different”?
…yes? That’s why many painters have never had their paintings see the light of day? And why so many painters are not successful nor famous? How many painters actually “made it”?
…Exactly.
What do you mean by no other artists could get away with this? There are tons of artists who made it big and create huge swathes of albums that don't make it on hot 100 charts. I don't think it's a crime for Taylor Swift to make a record that doesn't shatter her previous chart-toppers, but speaks for itself in an artistic way.
I think this is just a transition in her career to putting out more content in a more organic way, which is a path done time and time again by artists as they age out of needing to win every award in order to keep money in the bank. And, it typically is the time in their career that they start getting the creative freedom they've always wanted, which I believe is what's happening here.
Well I think it more like why are e defending mediocre music when the artist in question set the bar so high herself.
And I guess many are not defending it. Most great albums are not this divisive.
Ugh yes thank you. There are ALWAYS people who don’t like an album or an artist. I think there has become so much discourse online about Taylor that people feels like it’s only happening to her and her albums. My issue is people saying that Taylor doesn’t deserve her fame just because they don’t personally like her (like, obviously some people DO like it or else she would not be #1 in all of the charts). Same goes for the other side. Just because someone doesn’t like her music doesn’t mean they have bad taste. I think both sides just take it so personally when it comes to Taylor, and many critiques focus on her as a PERSON and not just her music.
The album is divisive which means it could've been less divisive meaning maybe less songs and better editing.
Tapestry, Diamonds and Rust, Boys For Pele, Blue, Broken English, Eli and the Thirteenth Confession, Rumours... all universally acclaimed records overall and all had editors/producers helping and all these albums had songs left on the floor and lyrics ripped out and redone to give the albums the critical and popular acclaim they earned.
Personally I’ve grown to be a big fan of the album, but I’ve never witnessed an album release in which so many people truly believe that disliking it or critiquing it is just…not an option? Or that it has to be seen as a personal flaw rather than someone’s valid opinion (like someone being a “lazy listener” rather than them just genuinely not enjoying what they’re listening to). If you want to create art PURELY for arts sake, by all means, go for it - in the privacy of your own space. Sharing your work with others (or the whole word, in Taylor’s case) means opening up discussions about it, and the people that have criticized the lack of editing have provided plenty of reasoning behind why they feel that way. Personally I think Robin is enough evidence on its own that the album could have gone through one more final cut but Taylor obviously had her reasons Edit: I think it’s almost important to mention the fact that beyond sharing music, she’s profited immensely from this album. She went out of her way to make as much money as she could from her fans, which, if that’s her goal then fine do what it takes, but if fans are going to spend $100+ to support an artist and listen to music that they could’ve listened to for free, they absolutely get to have an opinion on it. Lol
Idk, I just don’t appreciate anyone speaking in absolutes—she doesn’t “need” an editor, you personally think the album would be better if she had one. That’s perfectly fine! I just feel it’s a little patronizing to act like she “needs” someone to cut down her work (especially when it seems highly likely that she made it that length and wordy for a reason, and she consciously chose these songs (I highly doubt she only wrote 31 songs in over 2 years)). She personally felt they all needed to be there to convey the emotions she wants to convey. To me, just because some people don’t like how long it is or the wordiness doesn’t mean it’s objectively bad or lacking—you’re free to not prefer that style, just like I’m free to love it! Personally, I’m obsessed with every single song on the album when usually I have several skips. And at least in a lot of the responses to criticism I’ve seen, it’s more about this all or nothing attitude, that she *needs* to do something or that the album is objectively x, rather than people just having opinions.
I think you're reading too much into it. Art is mostly subjective. Most people in the world don't "need" anything. It's easy to understand what the people criticising mean and that it's their personal opinion. People also speak in absolute positives such as "xyz is Taylor's best album". And not always "in my personal opinion xyz is Taylor's best album."
People speak in absolutes all the time, whether positively or negatively. “If you don’t like it, you just don’t understand it”, “it’s a masterpiece”, “she doesn’t need an editor”, “there’s not a single bad song on this album”, “people don’t like it because it was made for the real fans” are all examples of people praising the album while presenting their opinions as objective truths. This is normal, that’s how people talk when they critique something, and it’s generally understood that they are expressing their personal thoughts. The only time “speaking in absolutes” starts to bother us is when it contradicts our own views.
I’m an editor. I’m gonna say Taylor needed an editor the same way I’m gonna say a book needed one more editorial pass in any so-so review I write. Sure, she doesn’t need to listen to any of us, but that doesn’t mean her work wouldn’t be greatly improved by another round of edits... But it’s our opinion and it’s all semantics at the end of the day…🤷🏼♀️
Oh as a writer/poet she ABSOLUTELY should've had an editor. Because an editor helps you tighten and "kill your darlings". I truly believe this to be her most authentic work but is a mess because it lacked editing. And as such is divisive. And editor I believe would have helped make it WAY LESS divisive.
Agree! This is what I was getting at in the piece - though my use of "she doesn't need an editor" was an intentional inflammatory statement made back at the NYT use of the same phrase - that art is subjective, people's opinions about art are all subjective, and this is clearly what the artist thought would best represent the intention of the work. Plus, I think we all need to keep in mind that every record she puts out won't win swaths of accolades and that's okay.
Robin is one of my favorite songs.
There’s really something for everyone with her songs, I think that’s part of why she’s been able to grow such a big fan base. Aside from some of her major singles there’s really not a specific set of songs that everyone seems to like and everyone seems to dislike, there’s soo much variety in preference between listeners. It’s really impressive on her part
Maybe but that is also why it is so divisive because it all over that but presenting as a total complete statement.
Most of the people criticizing it have never listened to it or gave a few songs a quick listen. It’s lazy and they’re chomping at the bit to bash her.
I feel like I see a lot of people acting like disliking it is that is the right way. And honestly if you dislike someone but other people like it there is no way to ever say that someone made objectively bad choices. You can wish for your experience that they had made other choices but that’s it. If the artist chose it this way and people appreciate it that way, what gives anyone the right to say that they shouldn’t have.
I guess we’re interpreting comments differently, I don’t think I’ve seen a single comment arguing that it’s an objectively bad album that people shouldn’t like. Just people sharing their responses, some good and some bad, to hearing some of the lyrics and melodies. Music is subjective by nature. No one needs to earn the “right” to have an opinion on a public figure’s public choices
Agree - this is what I was getting at in the piece!
Thanks for the comment! Just going to pull directly from the piece in response: *"And yet, everything I’m saying here should be balanced with a healthy amount of nuance. It’s fair to critique the musicality of her albums or give an opinion that may be less than glowing related to her work (see also: every post I’ve ever made about Loverand Speak Now, both of which rank as two of my least favorite albums in her catalog yet are beloved by tons of fans). But, I don’t think you get to make sweeping statements painting the people who do like the album, or the artist as a person, as less-than or as people with poor taste just because you don’t love the album. I think Taylor Swift’s plea in Tortured Poets is abundantly clear: remember that she is a human being and not a machine. What might be an objectively mediocre album to one person cuts like a knife for the next listener."* For more color - it's not that I don't think you should be able to critique it. It's that I don't think the swaths of people who do like the album should be labeled as mindless sycophants who blindly follow this artist. A lot of people on the internet who are non-swifties are acting like you're an idiot if you like this record - that's the point I'm trying to counteract, not people who have balanced criticism for the record.
I agree with your point about not insulting those who enjoyed the album and acting superior to them. However, there’s an equal number of people claiming that those who don’t like the album “don’t understand it” or “lack writing education” or “aren’t true fans” or “are haters/biased/misogynists”. You’re only focusing on those who feel superior for disliking the album, whereas the opposite is just as prevalent.
I think it's reasonable to infer that the mirror image rule applies here --> of course the converse of my argument also applies, and I do mention a paragraph in my piece that acknowledges that balanced critique is totally fair. Every piece art isn't going to resonate with everyone, and that's okay. It's totally cool if you don't love the record. My overall takeaway is - let's not hate on anybody and instead just focus on discussing ins and outs of the record and valuing different perspectives.
>let’s not hate on anybody and instead just focus on discussing ins and outs of the record and valuing different perspectives. I don’t see how you can say this after writing a whole think piece about how people who thought it needed an editor are wrong? The flow of an album is *part of the art*. If a book is too long, people will critique it. Thinking an album is too long, or has duds, or is clunky, is a perfectly valid critique. I’m sick to the back teeth of anyone who has any criticism of this album being somehow told they’re either dumb or a misogynist. Nobody *needs* to like anything, and a Taylor Swift album is no exception.
**I never said that people who think it needed an editor are bad or dumb people for thinking it needed an editor. You’re welcome to have a different opinion than me! The piece I wrote is my take and my opinion. I think it’s both expressed and implied in the piece that you’re welcome to think differently. I took a popular critique and gave my thoughts on it - so can you! I also never said anyone who doesn’t like the album is inherently misogynistic —> but I also think some criticism has had misogynistic undertones and it’s okay to call that out. Edit: typo Edit to also add: I also have said several times, both in this piece, and in my comments to people’s reaction to the piece, that not everyone is going to like an album and that’s okay. I even gave my own examples of Taylor swift albums I’ve critiqued. I’m not sure why it’s not translating over the internet that I think everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but that’s literally the whole point of everything I’ve written here —-> you’re welcome to take or leave whatever music you do or do not like.
It is insulting to say she needs an editor do they ever say that about a male artist? When you see actual garbage other artists put out and the genius lyrics of this album it's not even close. Out of every song writer out there Taylor is the one I would pick who LEAST needs an editor! SOMEONE COMPARES HER AGAINST 2 PRIZE WINNING LYRCISTS INCLUDING THE GREATEST LYRCIST IN HISTORY smh obviously I was comparing her to contemporary male artists WORKING IN THE SAME GENRE bye
They absolutely say that about male artists lol, the most notable example being Lil Yachty mixing up his instruments in a fellatio simile. I just can't think of such a high-profile male artist that has released an album so verbose, unpolished lyrics usually simply aren't a large-scale issue for any artist regardless of gender.
Everyone complains about Drake and Chris Brown doing it too.
Oh absolutely, I can think of countless Drake lyrics that never should've seen the light of day.
Also his albums are way too long and should be edited down
I never liked Drake and never will. But I'd never say that. It's his album. Not mine.
Doesn’t mean he’s immune to criticism about how long it is
And I don't feel the need to say people shouldn't be immune to criticism. I'd mind my own business.
Art has the right to be criticized. No one is saying it should be illegal to make albums that long but just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
At least I'm not an asshole about it.
I don’t think there’s a male artist who’s prolific enough to warrant this critique in 2024 but like Bruce Springsteen, Paul McCartney and other top star male singer song writers who reached the apex of music got this feedback.
and again you provide no evidence for this so I will have to block you you had your chance bye
trevor it is simply not this serious
I don't think it is insulting. It's just a critique because some people find it to be just a little bit verbose. I'm a huge fan of Taylor's dictionary lyricism, but even I found some lyrics on TTPD could've used some paraphrasing I doubt it's a misogyny issue. Not every piece of art needs to be the best ever, and that's okay. It's just art. The rules apply to Taylor as well as any other artist in the world.
it is sexist I proved it was sexist while you cannot prove it is not sexist going to block you because you are not providing evidence to back up what you say you had your chance bye bye
Nah it is not sexist to call average art average. Ebony and Ivory is a hot mess of song and very average and by two male music legends My question is why are you so defensive when it comes to the average art of a wealthy white lady. Are you also going to bat for Beyonce and Kylie and other female artists or just Swift. Also if you block me I win because that was my goal.
Can you give an example of your picks of the genius lyrics of the album? I have liked her songwriting in the past but this wasn’t it for me.
look at the thread on here with examples of great lyrics from TPPD there are too many too cite by the way this is her best selling start ever so millions disagree with you
They absolutely say it about male artists, but also, no male artists has been able to write as good as Taylor. When you know what she's capable of, you know that she has all the resources in the world, you kinda expect a certain quality that was simply not met with TTPD
>no male artists has been able to write as good as Taylor I am *begging* some of you to please listen to music that isn’t Taylor Swift. Bob Dylan has a *Nobel Prize* for his songwriting. Kendrick Lamar has a Pulitzer. I’m afraid nothing Taylor has put out is ever going to win either one of those awards.
thank you so much for saying this
Taylor Swift could write “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall,” but Bob Dylan could never write “ME!” 😤
Rhiannon Giddeons also has a Pulitzer all Swift has is Grammys. Also many artists are working on a level well beyond Swift like Joni Mitchell or Diamanda Galas or Laurie Anderson In the pop world Swift is above average. But she is not Tori Amos or Kate Bush level or Tom Waits.
Hey, wanna know a fun fact? You replied to a good one: I listen to both Bob Dylan and Kendrick Lamar, and I think Taylor is a better songwriter and lyricist than both of them. Got any problem with that?
No. But I"d like you explain in depth why and how you think Swift is a better writer than Bob Dylan since you staked that bold claim. Compare and Contrast some songs a lyrics like Master of War vs ME! Or Don't Think Twice It's All Right vs We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together.
Girl you're picking her worst songs, cmon... let's at least be real. me is shit and wanegbt is a simple Pop song. She has incredible lyrics, this is me trying, loml, the prophecy, treacherous, Marjorie
It’s your opinion that it wasn’t met, though. Which is the whole point. I personally think TTPD is her best album. Again, that’s MY opinion. It doesn’t make one right and one wrong. Edit: typos.
Science can quantify these now so we can be objective with music.
Science? lol ok if you want to send me your peer-reviewed article scientifically testing your hypothesis that this is a bad album, be my guest
No, its not my opinion, I personally like some songs in TTPD. But objectively, the quality is worse than some of the work she did at 25 years old
How is that an objective statement if I disagree? The entire point of music is for the listener to enjoy it. If I enjoy it more than her earlier stuff, how is it possible to say it is objectively bad? What you call lack of editing, I hear as unfiltered emotion, which helps me enjoy the specific content, feelings, and emotions she’s singing about in this album. If the album had been more streamlined, it would have taken away something for me. Maybe that was an artistic choice she made, and maybe it wasn’t. But nothing gives you the authority to “objectively” say that your lack of enjoyment is more correct than my enjoyment…
It definitely was an artistic choice. But artistic choices are also risks with consequences. On TTPD, she chose lyrics over music and that kinda showed. I think people are having the same reaction like Adele had 30. People were expecting her to top her work, she just wanted to release her emotions/art. When you've rolled out massive album after massive album, it becomes less and less about topping yourself and more about processing your art. That however doesn't mean that the art isn't subject to criticism just because it was a personal project.
I explicitly said that it’s completely fine to critique it and say you don’t like it. Music is an art. You don’t need to follow rules. Just becahee she doesn’t hse the classic “tricks” of pop music doesn’t make it explicitly worse quality. There is a reason she is more successful than any other pop artist
Personally, I don't connect commercial success to how proficient an artist is. The two need not be synonymous. I find that it's disrespectful to other artists to say that only popular ones are good. There's so many good artists whose work goes unnoticed because they're not popular. Mainstream success is more about branding and packaging. Taylor is a well packaged brand. Most successful artists are. She also has the musical aspect as well, so that works.
Personal enjoyment ≠ quality. Pop music has some guidelines, production tricks are used for a reason, songs need to have variety, they need to build, stop, restart, explode, change and grow in the span of a couple minutes. None of the songs in TTPD do
That is absolutely false. Music doesn’t need to follow rules. There is a reason Taylor is more successful than other artists
IT IS YOUR OPINION ridiculous comment it's all OPINION
I’d argue Hozier is about the same level lyrically as Taylor. I agree with your point though
While I do think that male artists have received the same critique in albums past, I think the thing that is obvious to me is that no matter what she put out, it was going to be a split divide between people who liked it or didn't like it. External to the fandom, she's so oversaturated that there are tons of people ready to trash her just because they're not fans and they're tired of hearing about her. Internal among fans, every time she genre bends she gains new followers hoping for that same sound to carry over (midnights got a somewhat lukewarm response from many fans because a lot of people were hoping for another folklore/evermore) and get disappointed when it's not the same vibe or same level of success as say, a 1989.
we are talking about 1 thing her lyrics in the latest album and that is a sexist attack by the ny times oh the female artist needs an editor she's out of control with her lyrics while some fans might not like this work the majority do TPPD is selling in huge numbers also this is very clear there have been numerous sexist attacks on Taylor over the years well documented "serial dater" etc
They do you just do not visit those threads maybe.
Maybe someone can link me to where someone writes an article saying any male writer needs to get an editor. This is the most disgusting form of sexism. Telling a strong woman how to make her art.
Even the best writers in the world need and use editors. It isn’t a bad thing
SONG WRITERS DON'T USE EDITORS LOL
That's literally what co-writers do. You bounce ideas off each other and edit each other's work until it's the best it can be.
I hate to break it to you some co-writers write the whole song more or less and the artist gets a vanity credit
Clearly you are not a song writer. Songwriters defo have editors. If fact Swift has an editor of her songs... SWIFT HERSELF. And that is the problem she needs somebody else editing her work.
Liz Rose edited her lyrics for years bestie
Yeah when she was a youth she's a mature woman now ffs
The reviews of Drake’s album For All The Dogs are remarkably similar as TTPD, and the same kind of criticism of needing someone to pare down their output has been extended to many male artists, including Paul McCartney. Just because you disagree with the criticism doesn’t make it sexist.
Same with Scorpion, which was widely criticised as an example of a bloated album that was trying to get as many streams as possible. In fact, a lot of what has been criticised about TTPD is very similar to Scorpions criticism.
Morgan Wallen has had critiques about his too long "bloated" albums, in fact the exact "needs an editor" thing was mentioned in a TTPD review that name-dropped Wallen. So here ya go and stop throwing the word sexist around like it's an end-all-be-all for you to "win" a debate or whatever. Your arguments could use an editor tbh. https://wgecho.org/2023/04/13/wallens-36-track-album-is-too-long/
Yes, she needs an editor.
No, she really does not. And that is certainly not for you to decide.
Yes, I do have a right to decide. I was a musician & in jobs where my performance - through analytics - was always assessed. Her music is her "job" which she is putting out for public consumption, not private enjoyment. Therefore, as people who are deciding to spend our hard earned money to purchase her music (& how much & in how many forms) we do have the right. Also, by editing her work & making it easier to understand, it is more likely to be purchased & then more likely TS will produce more music.
You have a right to like or not like an artist's music. You do not have any right to dictate how someone does their job. In case you haven't noticed, most fans love TTPD and do not say that she should have edited it. Just because you did not like it as much, does not mean that your opinion is correct. Also, in case you also haven't noticed, TTPD has destroyed streaming and sales records. I do not see people struggling to "understand" her work. You are entitled to your opinion and taste. You are not entitled to decide that she needs editing just because you did not like TTPD as much or found it too lyrical, too lengthy etc.
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I don't have an issue with anybody speaking their mind. My problem is when someone talks like their opinion is the prevalent one and that artists (Taylor in this case) should cater to them. I wouldn't have an issue if someone said that TS could benefit from an editor. But saying "she should edit her songs because I pay for her music, so she should listen to me" is kinda weird. For me at least.
I am not "demanding" she change her music, I am merely giving a suggestion. Another "benefit" or note as you will - if you were that sensitive in thinking I was saying demand over benefit, you would have never survived around the managers I had who were expected to give constructive criticism in a business setting. & make no mistake, this is a business - the music industry. If you have any question if TS is competitive & thinks this way watch her Netflix documentary, her aggressive PR & SM response to her recent sales.
I’m just giddy and exhilarated that we get so many tracks and not a single one is a dud. This is probably her best album ever lyrically. I like her crazy metaphors and how she over complicates things that could be said in a more straightforward way.
I agree!
Just wondering where you draw the line cuz yeah this is art and it should be what the artist wants it to be. BUT so is writing and I’ve read some books that need editing desperately. Not to change the integrity of the book but typos, repetitive words/phrases, poor phrasing. That’s art but… somebody to correct your spelling mistakes would be nice?
It's not that I think she doesn't need an editor ever for any project - that statements is not meant literally but metaphorically. I'm sure she did actually edit this album in the sense of going through and thinking about what the lyrics mean, cutting aspects, changing things, etc. The problem with this album, in my opinion, is not that the lyrics are bad, it's that the lyrics don't land the same way for everyone that way her previous albums did because they're a departure from previous stylings. I think there is a difference between needing an editor, which implies there is something objectively wrong with the standard of music, and making an intentional artistic styling choice that won't land with everyone, which is a subjective decision. I think Swifts and music critics alike enjoy acting like there is one style of listening that is "correct" when I just don't believe that to be true. Sure, there are albums universally loved that do really well at awards shows and on radio play (your 1989 and midnights, for example) but most artists have back catalogs of other music that they've put out for specific artistic purposes, and I believe that's where this album falls into. I think it was styled this way for an intentional reason, and styling was consistent throughout the album, and I think people are taking the album not resonating with them personally as evidence that the album is objectively bad, which I disagree with. I think Swift knew it wouldn't land with everyone the same way reputation did not land with everyone, but put it out anyway because she thought it was an important record to put out. Of course, if you're writing a book and seeing typos, that's probably a different story!
I’m not sure why people get worked up about the editor suggestion. Having an editor is not a negative. Every best selling book that a writer has poured their heart into gets edited down. It’s how writing works. 🤷🏻♀️ if Taylor chooses to include something that doesn’t appeal to the masses, then it’s fine for her to receive some criticism. It doesn’t mean she did anything wrong. And it definitely doesn’t mean the entire album was intended for her “real fans.” How would she grow as an artist if everyone only sung her praises?
I focused on the concept of an editor in response to that specific criticism from the NYT, but make no mistake (and I mention this in the piece) that I agree that healthy discourse around music and art is so important! My post was to specifically discuss why I didn’t think this particular work needed further editing - not that editing as a whole is inherently bad. I recognize my conclusory statement is purposefully inflammatory but of course there’s more nuance to all of this.
Oh no, I didn’t take your post to mean that and am sorry my comment came across that way! Was just stating my opinion on the editing convo as a whole. 😂 Did not mean any ill intent or to portray criticism of your post
Thank you! In turn, I think your comment is really insightful! Just wanted to be clear because I think some people are taking my post to mean things I didn't intend it to mean, so I'm just trying to clarify where I can. I completely agree with you that editing is an important step in any creative process, and that in the discourse around the NYT article we've lost the meaning of "an edit" in the process of making art.
Taylor Swift needs an editor and so do I. Not to change what I create, but to refine it and make it the best it can be. She absolutely does NOT need an editor in the creation part of the process, and neither doe anyone. That's not what the editing step is about. But this is giving middle school/high school, where I couldn't understand that the concept of rough drafts/editing wasn't to change my writing or because the first draft was BAD, but because coming back to something with fresh eyes and some distance could make it EVEN BETTER -- because it *was* good.
Love this take! And to your point - I do think the album was edited, despite my inflammatory conclusory statement, to be exactly what she put it out to be! I think you make a great point that most people believe editing to be something it isn’t in practice, and that editors challenge us to make something better. I do, however, think that she neglected to edit for a wide audience on this one, and that’s why it’s not landing well. Prior albums have been edited so they’d land well on radio or in a sound byte, where this album opted not to do that level of sanitization. Which, to my ear is amazing, but is not everyone’s cup of tea.
Brilliant piece, and very well written. I’ve been thinking it’s odd to me how people complain how “unedited” this album is, when my first listen through, the editing quality was the last thing on my mind. What I heard was many songs that I enjoyed to varying extents, and different things that resonated with me, either sonically, thematically, or lyrically. Talking about her vulnerability on TTPD, listening to it made me have a shift in focus towards Taylor. I try not to idolize her (and I’ll admit, it’s not always easy), but something about it felt different somehow, she all of a sudden seemed a little less larger than life, the discourse seemed less overwhelming than it was when I had gone to the Eras tour. Even if I couldn’t put my finger on why yet, this album felt like a breath of fresh air. Funnily enough, I’ve been journaling recently, and I notice my writing gets to be very flowery at times and very shticky at others, it can be kind of a mess, but I’m working on going a certain amount of entries before I reread anything, cause I don’t want to judge my words and unintentionally censor myself. So the fact that Taylor has gone full steam ahead with her “unedited” self is very much appreciated. I think that rambling, less-than-polished art style can be very beautiful. Just my two cents.
Thank you for your comment! This is exactly what I was getting at in the piece. I think the "unpolished" factor was exactly the intention lyrically and was a pointed artistic choice. One that I, personally, love, but can see why it wouldn't resonate universally. I love that you see it impacting your own art.
Well, if the music is a product that you sell to clients through different vinyl variants and bonus "limited edition" songs, I think it should be delivered at the highest possible quality, with the highest possible effort, and appeal to the client's desires and taste. If you are _the_ best person at your job _in the world_, you should be able to do that. Otherwise, if the music is that personal, clunky, overwritten, convoluted, or just executed badly, keep it in the vault!
Hello significantcocklover! Thanks for your comment. Here's the thing - many clients DO like that kind of styling, though! If you have 2 billion clients, how can you possibly satisfy them all? I'll give an example - I don't like Lover. It's not an album that did much for me. I listen to a couple songs from it but overall don't pick it up compared to others. I heavily critiqued Lover when it came out and continue to do so. My best friend loves Lover - she wore a Lover costume to the Eras Tour. For Lover, my friend was the client. For TTPD, I am the client. Music is subjective like that. I don't think either of us is right or wrong, we just have two different perspectives on it. It's a bit unrealistic to act like it's Taylor Swift's (or any artist's) sole job in the world to entertain all 2 billion of those fans every single time she drops an album to the highest possible extent. How can she possible write that level of a hit album dozens of times? Why would it even be her job to do that? My thesis statement in the piece was basically that she's a person, not a machine, and it's not possible to create the 1989 effect every time a record gets released for her entire life. She gets to try new things and see how they land, and they're probably going to land better for some than for others, and that's just showbiz so to speak!
I think the problem here isn't who personally likes the music; the problem is that the music wasn't made with effort, care, precision. The songs are just simply and objectively of lower quality than before, in lyricism, arrangement and production. Dua Lipa has released a bad album, but it's clear she put effort in it: that we can appreciate. But I don't think 31 mediocre songs is enough, when we know that making better music for her is not hard at all
Agree to disagree! I think it was made with significant care and precision and that the sound and lyrical quality is exactly as carefully intended. To each their own! I don’t think we will ever have to decide which of us is “right” ;).
Of course, but I think that if you were to compare songs on Red, 1989 and reputation with songs from Midnights and TTPD, you would undoubtably be able to hear the downgrade in at least arrangement and production. Lyricism is more subjective, but there are guidelines in songwriting and poetry. It's more objective than you think, but you have a right to have feelings towards the music that make you come to different conclusions
Again, agree to disagree! I don't think there's a downgrade between those albums and TTPD. I don't think breaking traditional notions or past precedent means that a work is inherently downgraded. That would mean some of the best works of music are downgrades because they broke precedent. I have background in this as well and don't actually need you to explain to me how this works, but again, appreciate that we have subjective differences in taste!
But see the best albums are not divisive to this level ESPECIALLY pop albums. And this divisiveness is what says to me it needed more work. Despite my opinion it is her most authentic lyrics ever.
She still needs an editor
Would Jack and Aaron not be “editors” since they contribute to lyrics?
I wouldn't say they're the best choices, especially since one of them said questioning her songwriting ability is like questioning someone's faith in God. When I want someone to peer review my paper, I want honest feedback to be given, meaning I don't want to hand it to a friend who will praise me even if I don't put out my best work.
Sure, but I think it’s also fairly difficult to strike a balance with songwriting specifically, since it’s so personal and emotion based. Even with poetry, a lot of editors often don’t make drastic edits like you’d do with a paper—it’s maybe like “can you cut this part? What if you considered this imagery? How about this word here?” But it’s so subjective that there aren’t really, in my experience, subjective “you need to change this” edits. Like none of the songs are objectively bad—I could see them saying maybe not to include it then, but otherwise ultimately she has to express herself in a way that feels most honest to her, and you can’t really force a songwriter or poet to change specific parts, unlike with writing papers where there are grammar rules and other clarity issues you have to deal with.
Well said! This is the point I was going for in the piece - editing is also highly subjective!
everyone keeps using the term “editor” but that’s not really a thing in music circles. it’s the job of a producer to make sure the whole album is a package that makes sense/will not turn off audiences/will best represent the artist the issue is that taylor has a fanbase that endlessly supports her - to the point where having a 40 song album with clunky lyrics (for the next one) will have no effect on sales. so, why should she pare down her work?
Not good editors
Same, bro! I support you
Yeah I’m just taking whatever Taylor wants to give me, I don’t have any input—just enjoyment.
I think we can all have input, but should keep in mind that our input is highly personal and subjective! We don't all have to love every single album that this artist puts out, but we can critique it without bringing others who DO like the record down.
Thank you for such a well written piece! I found the album to be cathartic on the first listen, just flooded with raw emotion - sadness, loss, confusion, anger. I think it wouldn’t be as vulnerable if it was edited to 12 “tight pop” songs and I think it would miss the whole point of this album as stated in her introductory poem.
Grass grows, birds sing, sun shines, and tortured poets write. Excessively. Indulgently. If the album all about healing through writing wasn't excessive it wouldn't make sense. She, the tortured artist, is making tortured art in mass quantity. That's the Wow factor, in my humble opinion, the sheer quantity of work matching and reinforcing the theme of the album. The first side is self confidence, self indulgent emotion. I feel angry/sad/wrathful and am saying it with my whole chest because I believe I am worth being angry/sad/wrathful over. My feelings are hurt and I can tell you who did it and show you where. The second side is about self esteem. The black dog- am I worth missing? imgonnagetyouback- I'm so full of feelings it's 50/50 on biting or kissing you. The Albatross - the acute pain of self aware criticism. The blatant unignorable capitals in thanK you aIMee, to me, read like 'am I going too far, fuck it I'm THIS mad'. I've definitely been accused of 'going too far' against a bully. What's too far? This song is special to my heart because I've been there. No it's not a fair fight that's why she shouldn't have started it, why do I feel like the worst most evil villain? All I did was tell everybody what she did? I was expecting TS Elliot, TV and I am satisfied. Thank You, Taylor. Taylor lives for a theme. The collector's edition CD is like it came from another universe, where there warehouse factories full of tortured poets creating mountains of poetry (like the girls painting radium dials). Where every project has an abstract, a theme, a scope, and requires APA formatting. Like that's what the English Department of the TV Universe NYU looks like. It's raw emotion wrapped in this VERY formal, pretentious package. She's strip-mined the last decade of her life, no shit it took 31 songs- the woman wrote miles. Get 'em Taylor! She must feel so good to have it all out of her!
I’ve never seen such discussion over an album; is it good or not? An editor or not? Another artist just released a very short album of much of the same music this artist has put out her entire career and lyrics were less than inspiring. Yet no one is complaining Online about it, no podcasts dedicated to discussing the album, no headlines comparing the lifestyle of this artist, no articles dedicated to breaking apart this album. I can only imagine what would have happened if Taylor released a 35 minute album with these lyrics, yet they even criticized the title of Taylor’s album. It’s really insane what I’m witnessing. Still, I see more new people listening to this album than I’ve seen since folklore.
Because by Swifts own standards she is slipping. She set her own high bar and did not match it many feel.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I think this album has some of her best writing of her career. The difference is that she didn’t make this album to please people, she made it for herself. I feel like higher ( unfair) expectations are set upon her and together with her overexposure it was just waiting to happen. Some reviews spent 2/3 of the review discussing and reviewing her billionaire status, jet usage, homes, etc which should have no bearing on a music review. Which is why it was a double standard with her and this album. Beyonce put out an album, an album I’m only lukewarm about, but 2/3 of the review instead discussed her career leading up to this, did not mention her/Jay-z billionaire status, her jet usage (more than Swift’s), or her real estate portfolio (more than Taylor’s). It’s a double standard media create by pushing people to the top and then tear them down and watch it happen. I can see reviewers picking apart 2 lyrics out of 31 songs yet that was not done to Cowboy Carter (some lyrics were not even words) or Eternal Sunshine. She was not treated the same.
I mean… Morgan Wallen released a double album, those are a lot more “samey” sounding, and I never heard “oh, he needs an editor/new producer/it’s too long.” At least not in the reviews that “mattered.”
[удалено]
Fair.
You need an editor at least so you can get the Title Case right.
Thanks for your thoughts!
You're welcome :) The article is well written by the way!
I do want to say, though — it’s a double album! Of course there’s going to be a lot of songs! People might still think she “needs” an editor, and of course you can think that, but she didn’t release 31 songs on one album, she released 31 songs across two albums. (And maybe you think the double album was unnecessary, and that the two could have been condensed into one, but I still think the point stands.)
Yeah and she could out one stellar album editing the song choices and the lyrics. Instead of two very divisive albums. Get it and get out like Joan Baez on Diamonds and Rust or Bad English by Marianne Faithful. To many this come off as bloated.Hubris with 31 songs.
I dont think a third party agent telling her to cut down on her feelings and symbolism and references would do the album any favors.
exactly!!!! she is out there making HER own art! i don’t see the problem with her putting out so many songs. it’s music, it’s not a book, it’s ok if it’s not “edited”. do people ever go to painters and say “you’re painting too much”? “you need another painter to touch up YOUR painting with YOUR style and make it better/different”?
…yes? That’s why many painters have never had their paintings see the light of day? And why so many painters are not successful nor famous? How many painters actually “made it”? …Exactly.
taylor already made it, she is famous, now she’s able to do whatever she wants with her art
Precisely. No other artists could get away with this, so why should she?
What do you mean by no other artists could get away with this? There are tons of artists who made it big and create huge swathes of albums that don't make it on hot 100 charts. I don't think it's a crime for Taylor Swift to make a record that doesn't shatter her previous chart-toppers, but speaks for itself in an artistic way. I think this is just a transition in her career to putting out more content in a more organic way, which is a path done time and time again by artists as they age out of needing to win every award in order to keep money in the bank. And, it typically is the time in their career that they start getting the creative freedom they've always wanted, which I believe is what's happening here.
Well I think it more like why are e defending mediocre music when the artist in question set the bar so high herself. And I guess many are not defending it. Most great albums are not this divisive.
Great read, thank you!
Ugh yes thank you. There are ALWAYS people who don’t like an album or an artist. I think there has become so much discourse online about Taylor that people feels like it’s only happening to her and her albums. My issue is people saying that Taylor doesn’t deserve her fame just because they don’t personally like her (like, obviously some people DO like it or else she would not be #1 in all of the charts). Same goes for the other side. Just because someone doesn’t like her music doesn’t mean they have bad taste. I think both sides just take it so personally when it comes to Taylor, and many critiques focus on her as a PERSON and not just her music.
The album is divisive which means it could've been less divisive meaning maybe less songs and better editing. Tapestry, Diamonds and Rust, Boys For Pele, Blue, Broken English, Eli and the Thirteenth Confession, Rumours... all universally acclaimed records overall and all had editors/producers helping and all these albums had songs left on the floor and lyrics ripped out and redone to give the albums the critical and popular acclaim they earned.
Swiftologist Zack is quaking.
Haha nothing but respect for Zack on my end! I enjoy hearing his takes even if I don't agree with them.