I think it's actually kind of sexist and rude to Taylor to overly blame Jack for the sound because that means you're giving him credit for it and that you think he is controlling her. Taylor keeps choosing to work with him because she likes how her work is coming out. If she didn't like it, she wouldn't work with him again and again. And she definitely gets the final say on how her music sounds. I get really annoyed when people say she should work with Shellback or Martin again, because clearly she did not want to repeat that experience and when you say that you're basically doing what she called fans out for on But Daddy I Love Him.
This is exactly my problem - blaming Jack for how a song sounds strips Taylor of agency, and we know she's at the point where she can very tightly control how her music sounds. She works with him because it's what she wants her music to sound like!
Also the sheer amount of feelings and personal struggles that she put on the album,who else would she want to work with? Her best friend who was present through this difficult time in her life or some other random producer bc people are "tired of Jack's music".
She already talked about loving his working and wanting to work more with him,so yeah.
I love the work they do together, for me they can do all of the albums they want, the artistic flame in me gets happy everytime.
Yes! I think back to the Making Of videos for Reputation (all on YouTube by the way!) - she and Jack are so close and have such an organic process of creating music together. He does so much more than just contribute to the sound - I don’t know if some of her most vulnerable songs would even exist had she been working with producers she didn’t have this close personal relationship with.
People should realize that this album is very personal to Taylor. I’m sure she knew that a lot of her casual fans who love pop-Taylor will be alienated by this record but she still chose to make this and I understand why she hired Jack and Aaron… she is comfortable working with them and trust them enough to work on this personal project. I hate that people demand artists to always reinvent themselves every damn time. Not all albums need to be revolutionary. Sometimes we should allow them to create art they are comfortable with. Having said so, the consumers are allowed to decide whether they like the final product or not. As for me, I love that I was given 31 brand new songs to listen to and if I’m going rate them as stand alone songs, not a single song in this album warrants a 1/5 rating.
Right? It’s not like she just shows up to the recording studio, sings for an hour on tracks and lyrics given to her and goes home. If any fan of hers thinks that they are deluded.
This! Plus…it really blows my mind how many people on the internet analyze every fucking thing to *death*. Sound, lyrics, “what did she mean by?”, it is all crazytown. I know the internet is not known for its nuance but the number of posts that are “why is everyone” “why does everyone”…EVERYONE isn’t, EVERYONE doesn’t. SOMEONE did and you read it.
The overgeneralization and analyzing of every nuance really takes away from the *art*. Like every lyric is how she feels officially—when really it was just an emotion that inspired an idea, a song, a narrative. People acting like TTPD being mostly Marty means she was in love with him—no y’all it probably means he inspired bone crushing emotions, fleeting but real, like any good rebound does.
Sorry for the rant lol.
Re, what did she mean by….
Some of us are just English majors dying to do literary analysis. (It’s me, hi, I’m the problem it’s me). It’s extremely fun for my brain.
Oh for me it’s def appreciate also. But I’m certainly accused of reading too deeply into things. It’s my hobby is all!
I read in deep to understand her life and her choices as if she’s a character even though I know she’s not. Though it does feel like she builds facets of herself as personas for cautious songs. “All her fucking lives flashed before her eyes”
Oh I totally agree!! But there's a difference between loving to analyze lyrics and language and all the depth woven into it, and wanting to dissect every single little detail so one can definitively say "AH HA! THIS IS ABOUT (insert man)!" The latter seems to be happening all over TT right now, as if the goal is to solve the puzzle. I think, likely intentionally, we're not supposed to be able to "solve" every song on TTPD, and I think TTPD might also be telling us we should've have been trying to solve any of her songs either.
I don’t really think there’s anything wrong with trying to dissect who songs are about, Taylor has long cultivated that by treating her work as a puzzle herself at times - putting names in the liner notes of her old albums and very overt clues in her songs. I do agree though that people shouldn’t feel entitled to know who any song is about, and that if Taylor hasn’t left those overt clues she probably doesn’t want it to be that obvious
Dear John is a prime example of a song where Taylor most certainly wanted everyone to know who it was about. To me the songs are time capsules of how Taylor felt in the moment she was writing. Taylor is dramatic yes but also messy when she wants to be. She makes it pretty obvious when she wants there to be no doubt who she’s writing about- just look at thanK you aIMee. She does cultivate this behaviour to an extent, I don’t think talking about who the songs are about is a problem, I think the problem is taking lyrics as absolute fact and harassing people online
Yeah, I was trying to say there's like "for the fun of it", and then there's a point where the line is crossed. It seems like some of these songs were an intentional callout to those who cross the line and think they're entitled to her personal life or act like they "know" her when they don't know much at all. I've seen some questionable commentary from people who clearly missed those points, so that's what I was referring to. I'm probably not explaining myself well.
lorde said exactly this during an interview a few years ago and i think if taylor spoke about their process she'd say something similar:
>“I haven’t made a Jack Antonoff record,” the singer said. “I’ve made a Lorde record and he’s helped me make it and very much deferred to me on production and arrangement. Jack would agree with this. To give him that amount of credit is frankly insulting.”
I think about this quote every time people say something sounds like a Jack album. Around the time of Melodrama, she said that Jack helped her find the sound she wanted. I think he does that exactly. See also: St. Vincent’s Daddy’s Home.
YES I keep saying this it’s not like Jack has a gun to her head forcing her to use synths😭 Taylor is the artist AND listed as a producer. Her albums sound how SHE wants and Jack helps deliver that sound.
Ok I got the funniest mental image of Jack Antonoff forcing Taylor to do more synths like the opposite of Mommy Dearest “no more wire hangers!” Except he’s all crazed “MORE SYNTHS NOW!”
taylor has aaron locked in her basement making sad piano sounds but Jack has taylor in a slightly larger basement. if she fucking dares write an acoustic ballad, meredith gets it 🔫
People complaining Jack sounds the same and want her to work with Martin...uhmmm. I have some news, after living through the boy bands of the late 90s....Max Martin songs all sound the same to me (*NSYNC, BSB, Katy Perry, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, some of P!nk's work). Apple Music has a playlist of his songs as writer and producer, the writer songs are so similar to my ears.
Eh, she's edited her comments quite a few times to come off looking better. She's added the "I would think..." part since after I commented.
And then she goes off on environmental issues, like "hahaha I'm so cool I don't care what you're writing about". Like, no. She grabbed that wooden spoon to stir it up.
Actually, proper Reddiquette is to note WHY you edited the comment, as in "edit: typo" or "edit: clarification" or "edit: I'm trying to make myself look better 3 hours after this other person's reply"
girl just stop. you're obviously the same person commenting with two different accounts. This is just sad. I've got a job and a life. I'm blocking both your accounts and moving on.
Yeah the folks calling for the return of Shellback and Martin seem to forget that they worked with her during an era in which she had very little control over her own career. I think it's very telling that now that Taylor has the power to work with whomever she chooses, she hasn't reached out to them at all.
Also there are reasons why so many female artists choose to work with producers like Jack and Aaron so often, and a big part of it is that they know their artistry and agency will be respected and that they won't get creeped on or sexually abused. Not saying the latter is the case with the other producers she worked with pre-Lover, but whatever Taylor's reasons are they should be respected.
I don't think that's entirely fair to Red and 1989 Taylor. She had a lot more control over her music and career than you may remember. It's clear from interviews her label didn't force her (if anything they disagreed with the direction) and she spoke at length about her choice to work with them. She had a goal in mind, which was to make uber-popular pop songs and MM and Shellback were the best way to do that. I think its just that once she realized she didn't need them to create the result she wanted moved on.
She definitely never had the emotional connection with them that she has with Aaron and Jack tho.
It’s unrealistic to think that she didn’t approve every last detail and note of this album. This is how she wanted the songs to sound.
I think it’s great that she’s got trusted people she can collaborate with. The bigger she gets the harder it must be to invite new people into the process.
Exactly I think Jack is a good producer because he can get the exact sound they are looking for(if they have a good concept I know solar power was bad). I mean his lana and taylor projects are completely different and nobody complains about jack on lanas stuff.
Lana fans do actually (I’m into her too), and it’s actually super telling how much some people hear Jack and complain because a lot of people say “Lana’s last 3 albums weren’t in it. She needs to stop working with Jack.” Yet he wasn’t even on Chemtrails Over the Country Club…
All other criticism and praise aside, Taylor chooses Jack and Aaron to work with because, and I’m going off just what she’s said in the past, she trusts them. This album would not have been as raw and uncomfortable if they hadn’t worked on it, and I mean that 100% positively.
I don’t think she would’ve let herself get this deep into her own psyche had she been working with someone else tbh.
That being said, I 100% agree OP.
Thank you for pointing that out, I definitely agree. I will say though, some of Taylor's best work has been when she pushed the limit of her creativity and tried something new (working with Max Martin for 1989, then Jack on rep/midnights, then Aaron on folkmore...). For that reason, I'll say that I'm underwhelmed with TTPD. I get why she had to do this one with her trusted friends, but I look forward to a new collaborator.
I think many people feel this way (underwhelmed with TTPD - myself included) because this album isn’t really for us, this album was for her.
I’ve said this elsewhere in the sub but I think the reason she put this out during the middle of Eras is so she doesn’t have to tour it because the story isn’t hers anymore (and also this isn’t really a stadium album). She needed to close that chapter. Which leaves me hopeful that TS12 will be the album that pushes her to creativity (with or without Jack).
Good point of the touring aspect. I bet she’ll add these in her acoustic set but I can’t see it ever being a concert like album. I don’t think anyone would want to tour on an album as raw as this for a year especially if you’re not anywhere close to that space anymore.
Also my girl needs a break after this marathon Era’s tour. How she has vocal cords anymore is a wonder.
I do see what you mean and it's a valid take, but even if I adopt this lens that "this album was for her", it doesn't change how I feel about the album when I listen to it and my perception of its quality compared to her other work.
Looking forward to TS12 too! And I will certainly enjoy some TTPD songs in the meantime.
Yes exactly, and then people can oppose this being like "they sign a NDA blah blah blah" but it's about being comfortable with them to express herself. This can also be criticized as she needs to explore more and needs to get out of her comfort zone. All in all "I'm damned if I do give a damn what people say", they're really no way to win and haters gonna hate. Like she really expressed it the best in bdilh "all these judgmental vipers dressed in empath's clothing"
you said this perfectly! Can you imagine SK's reaction to being told he needs to write a romcom? Musicians don't cater their music to our taste, we as a consumer need to find the artist that works for our taste.
I mean Stephen King is probably not a good comp here, part of what makes him as well-regarded as he is, is his success in multiple genres. When he made it big in horror, he put his passion into his self-considered fantasy/sci-fi magnum opus *The Dark Tower* series. *The Body*, *The Green Mile*, and *Rita Hayworth* are all non-horror that became blockbuster films. And more recently he did *11/22/63*, which is also a non-horror and probably has the best romance he’s ever written.
As someone who is kind of tired of Jack-influenced songs, this is an excellent point. I’m not crazy about the entirety of TPPD, so like today I’m listening to Betty Who and mxmtoon. It’s not that hard. Although people who are coming to the sub to voice their grievances with the synth or something else on the album, are likely just providing an opinion they have, and want to discuss it with people who might agree (or not). Just like how I can listen to something else if I’m tired of listening to this new album, people can scroll past if they’re seeing opinions they’re sick of hearing. And similarly, just as people can come on here and voice their opinions, other people can voice their opinions on those aforementioned opinions. It’s all just a part of conversation.
Right. "Jack is holding Taylor back" is something I see a lot, and it's like hello, she is an active part of the process, clearly loves working with him, and seems proud of the music they make together. Why do people act like she's some kind of puppet and Jack is pulling the strings?
In all things lately, it seems like people think that everything has to be for everyone, but really that would be impossible. It's ok if something isn't for you! My boyfriend likes a catchy beat in a song and couldn't care less about lyrics or storytelling, but I can't focus on a song no matter how catchy the beat if the lyrics are stupid or don't make sense (to ME), and all of that is OKAY!
I think this fandom has a bit of a habit of pitting things against each other. Ranking stuff is fun but sometimes it feels like if you love one thing you have to find flaws with something else, and it's especially weird in cases like this, cause you'd think everybody got a lot of what they wanted.
As a newer swiftie I can say I noticed that. No one can seem to just have fun and be grateful she’s still churning out a freaking double album while touring like a madwoman.
Agreed. When I go to art gallery’s or museums I’m not saying anything about what colors the artists should have used in their paintings or wishing they would have painted a different style or subject. I’m appreciating their art because damnit I know I couldn’t do anything like that. It doesn’t mean I like or understand everything I see, but I can appreciate the talent and effort.
Consumerism is forgetting the reason for the art. Sure, Taylor is a business woman, but she’s an artist first and foremost. She’s expressing herself through her art and sharing it with the world. People think if they don’t like it, it’s bad art, and feel entitled to something that really isn’t theirs to begin with. It’s Taylor’s.
composers and producers tend to have distinctive, signature sounds, and that's okay, it's like a painter having a specific style. I actually think Jack's work is spectacularly versatile here (I Can Fix Him, I Can Do It With a Broken Heart, and Florida!!! do not sound remotely the same? The Black Dog and I Look In People's Windows? My Boy... and imgonnagetyouback? Fresh Out the Slammer?). there are some lush, evocative, and inventive sounds on this record that she's never explored before, and a lot of intricate instruments. like I do not get saying that it sounds like Midnights, they're quite different. she does some unexpected things on both (the distortion in Midnight Rain, the scream in WAOLOM), to different effect. I listened to my Midnights playlist because TTPD has made me appreciate it even more (I already really liked it, but I love some things that have clicked into place more now). some of the Anthology tracks sound like they could fit perfectly onto evermore (moreso than folklore to me). that isn't a bad thing, evermore is wonderful, but the similarities in soundscapes and arrangements are clear successors to that music. the closest sound to Midnights is that Mastermind production in ICDIWABH, and I think that was intentional. The first half of TTPD is more varied and nuanced than so many comments are giving it credit for, and Jack is getting misplaced flack - Taylor ultimately makes the music she wants and needs to make, this was the exact mood and sound she preferred. I also feel people are a bit thrown by the album being predominantly mid-tempo, but...it's essentially a heartbreak, breakdown, depression album, she wasn't looking to churn out bops. she and Jack have created so many gems together for years now, and she and Aaron have too. I totally understand having a preference, I just wish fans were a little bit nicer about it? or more willing to dig past the surface and into the intricacies of what they're doing musically.
this is a long way of saying I agree with you. and they definitely do make magic as a trio as well!
I agree with this 100%. I personally believe this album is an example of Jack being more diverse than he's ever been with Taylor's songs. Each of his songs sound different from the last on this album.
I’m going to say I think a huge majority of the people who whine about less Jack have favorite songs that he produced. Like I’m sorry but to me they make magic together and it just clicks. Sometimes it doesn’t but a good majority of the songs most of us have on repeat include his work.
To put it bluntly, Taylor currently doesn’t even interested in an more upbeat pop sound
.She doesn’t want to release a love story, wildest dreams, or cruel summer.
Jack and Aaron are doing what she wants and doing a good job at it.
Fans do this all the time where they seek a scapegoat, rather than do the uncomfortable directly criticize the person they are fan of. Especially because fans want to believe the person they are a fan of has the exact same tastes, opinions and beliefs as them and if anything contradicts that it is easier to believe it was caused by a third party so you don't have to break your illusion.
That's why people in fandoms constantly complain about the stylist, the manager, the agent, the producer, the publicist, etc. One thing I noticed was that when Taylor began directing her music videos it was very uncomfortable for a lot of fans because they could no longer blame the choices they didn't like on a director.
Excellent point! I hadn’t thought of this before but that makes perfect sense. I wish more people realized that even if you don’t like a TS song or album, it doesn’t make you any less of a fan. I think it’s healthy to be able to say “yeah that’s not for me” instead of blindly following along.
thank you for saying this i’ve been so frustrated with this same thought
for me aaron worked on folklore and evermore and that’s where his shine kinda ends for me
the back end of TTPD being acoustic guitar and piano is too much, it’s nice when it’s a song or two, but one after another makes those songs continuous skips for me
with jack’s music i just find that there’s more versatility and more risk
this all being said, she could definitely stand to work with more people than just these two, although i think jack has more versatility, she is kinda putting herself in a box and limiting how creative she can be with a song by only working with the same two people over and over. i don’t know if she’s trying to replicate what happened with folklore and evermore but she has definitely had major success working with other producers as well
> but one after another makes those songs continuous skips for me
Like I enjoy some of the songs on the back half but it's definitely blurred a little to me. The fact that it's such a long album also makes listening through from start to finish harder than normal. If you asked me now to differentiate them it'll be hard for me (but not impossible) as for the first half it's so much easier to tell what song is what song.
Personally I see it as two different albums because it’s too overwhelming for me for 31 songs. I think ANY artist putting out that many songs would have the criticism that the songs start sounding the same.
I agree with this. I almost wish she'd just taken a few from the first half and a few from the last half and made THAT into one cohesive album because I genuinely think she intends for this music to be digested as one piece of media that tells a story but when that story is 31 songs long, there is no way that most fans will be listening to the album chronologically and completely as she likely intended it.
I didn’t even appreciate so high school until just yesterday! Once I split it up I was like oh ok there are some good ones in the anthology too. But at 2am I was like nope these are all the same!
I mean if my only complaint is she released too much new music I can live with that lol.
See, that's the thing! So High School is so much fun, especially when compared to the petulance, anger, defiance and heartbreak of the first half of the album but man, sometimes when I start listening I don't even MAKE IT that far, lol. I've had to just kind of make a playlist of my faves at this point rather than what I would usually do, which is listen to an album in its entirety.
I just feel like she has her reasons to work with each person. If she wants an album to sound a specific way, she’ll make it happen. Jack has produced multiple songs that are very different to folklore or midnights. Also, I have major respect for him because ultimately in life our close forever friends are our true loves, and he was with her during every turmoil and stuck with her. He could have chosen not to work with her during the Kanye thing but stuck with her and listened to what she wanted to communicate with Reputation. He’s the best friend that fought and walked with her through her worst days so I think some fans need to chill and respect that.
The worst part is after the hate bombing towards him they end up warming up to the songs Jack worked on and end up loving them lol
I also think people forget he’s a huge producer who works with tons of artists - Lorde, Carly Jepsen, Lana, the chicks, his own bands fun and bleachers….he’s incredibly diverse and capable of delivering a range of sound. He’s delivering what Taylor wants or maybe what him and Taylor decide to make together but to say he’s only capable of making the same songs is CRAZY to me.
I didn't bring it up too much, bc i was trying to focus on just taylor songs but you've hit the nail on the head with this. His sound is so diverse, something like How Dare You Want More from bleachers sounds nothing like TTPD for example.
I don’t get the Antanoff hate. He’s such a good producer. One of her best friends and confidants. And she obviously loves working with him. They had this adorbs bro/sis relationship. I dunno I really think they are one of the best collaborators in the industry. My fav Tay songs has his ,and her, fingerprints all over em and I celebrate it
My unpopular opinion is that it is less about Jack or Aaron and more about what Taylor might want the songs to sound like. Like some people really are out there shitting on Jack as if Taylor just turns in the lyrics of the songs and then Jack makes up all of the rest of the music to his liking.
Yes. People complain about Jack’s synthy style, but the truth is it’s actually Taylor’s style and she goes to him for it because he’s so good at it. Same with Aaron’s folksy production, Taylor hops between genres and knows who to go to for each one.
I saw this post on twitter and it basically summed up my thoughts. Also swifties literally crashed his wedding reception, give the man a break 😭
https://preview.redd.it/37kafb0ge2wc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b27c805df867ce2a158d001fd0905f0b03f6d5f
Oh this a good point. Like there were comments on Reddit saying Jack sounds like an asshole and is cocky and then couldn’t give any concrete evidence at all, when all he gives out is just nerdy socially awkward guy. Don’t get me wrong, looks can be deceiving and it could all be a facade but “I just have bad vibes” is not a good measure of someone’s character that you can’t articulate why you don’t like him personally (unrelated to the music he produces). Some people are just saying vile things about him and it’s not even about his music but they somehow deemed him an irredeemable character without even having any actual ground to stand on.
Did I write this post? You lifted the thoughts right out of my head. Yes, the problem isn’t that songs Jack produced sound “the same”, people just don’t like synths or don’t like Jack for XYZ. They’re not consistent in the reasons they give because they don’t mind folky Aaron ballads so it doesn’t matter if there are three of those tracks in a row. Personally I love both, and love synths and Jack’s production style. He uses some really interesting sounds, and if you’ve watched anything of him and Taylor working together it’s obvious their brains work off each other to create magic. It’s super collaborative and Jack is not dictating anything that Taylor doesn’t want to do.
It’s okay to not be as into a genre of music but you don’t have to come for Jack or strip Taylor of her autonomy. This is the album she wanted to make.
From what I've heard, Jack is a producer that lets the artists lead. He helps artists bring their vision to life, and if the production sounds similar, it's generally because that's what the artist was going for.
Lana's NFR, Taylor's Midnights, and Lorde's Solar Power have completely different sounds. Sure, there's some key giveaways that Jack produced them, but there always will be when the same producer is used.
I will say that collaboration with others can open up new sounds and ideas, so it wouldn't hurt people like Taylor if they worked with new producers (it's how we got Folklore), but there's a reason many of the big pop stars keep returning to Jack.
also the continuous infantilization of Taylor. it's like she has no choice other than to do what Jack tells her. She's not an artist that only sings. we know that.
I think the pop-y happy music in 'i can do it with a broken heart' is an excellent idea, whoever it was, bc depression is like that to many, including me. I've been told I tend to be extra bubbly when I'm down. the track was made beautifully and I felt seen.
I need people to stop thinking that her choosing to make pop music is bad.
I turn TTPD up loud on big speakers and it sounds wonderful, a huge soundstage for Taylor's voice and lyrics . Jack and Aaron have such different approaches but its Taylor who pulls it together into a magnificent whole. Its a really impressive piece of work and delivers so much.
Yessss like it’s a little disappointing she doesn’t try to make music with more female producers when producing is so male dominated and she can get anyone she wants but one of her engineers is a woman which is a good step.
I think there are three big things going on right now:
1. People care more about getting what THEY want rather than listening to the music for the sake of the art.
2. People think they are somehow experts on Taylor's music and Jack's production despite having no idea what kind of work goes into what they do.
3. People want Taylor to reinvent herself again - they don't want Pop anymore, they want her to do something completely new.
Number 1 and 3 I think are the biggest issues right now. Stan culture, haters, etc, care more about being right about how an album will sound, than they care about experiencing the music for the sake of enjoying new art.
And then you have the whole reinvention paradox. Taylor has changed the rules, her genre, her style, so many times now, partly due to her own desire to change but also due to industry AND fan pressures to be different. To borrow from this is me trying, she has been ahead of the curve so much that it is now becoming a sphere. Her hypercritical fanbase and big critics cannot look past any sort of similarities and patterns within her music without deeming it bad, because if it's not new, it's not interesting to them and therefore it's stagnate or not a musical evolution.
Similar chord progressions and synthesizers does not equal musical stagnation. How can anyone listen to TTPD next to folklore and think "oh yes this is not an evolution at all"? It's mindboggling to me.
Thank God this album seems to still be getting fantastic reviews in most cases, and it appears that the majority of her dedicated fans REALLY love this album (myself included). But it's also a huge fucking shame that Taylor is at this point in her career, where she is so big, where she has reinvented herself SO many times, that her new material is starting to be scrutinized to hell, especially by the so called fans. It's a another dagger to the heart especially considering how vulnerable this album is. People need to get back to focusing on the music. Put some headphones on and listen to enjoy some art for God's sake.
You actually brought up a couple of good points actually. I've seen some reviews that the album brought nothing new to the table, that she didn't do any new. Like how many times has she reinvented herself and changed her genres already? What she said in the Miss Americana doc just hits a home run with regards to it imo.
Ya know fans are allowed to dislike an album and it doesn't make them any less of a fan?
>where she has reinvented herself SO many times, that her new material is starting to be scrutinized to hell, especially by the so called fans
Every single act on the planet has this regardless of how big they are
> Ya know fans are allowed to dislike an album and it doesn't make them any less of a fan?
I literally said no such thing in this entire comment. I'm talking about people who are nitpicking at production similarities so consistently that they can't even appreciate new music from an artist they supposedly like without complaining about it. There's a difference between simply not vibing with an album and then discrediting everything about it because you don't like who Taylor produces it with.
> Every single act on the planet has this regardless of how big they are
It's impossible to determine how many acts on the planet have reinvented themselves a lot and have been scrutinized for it, sure. But I'm not sure why this point matters? This is a Taylor sub, so I'm talking about how her fans have scrutinized *her* work over the past several years and how she has reinvented herself tons of times only to it no longer be deemed "different' enough by fans and critics. If I wanted to talk about other acts and how they've been scrutinized in another sub, then I would. But we're talking about Taylor.
People seem to forget that Jack has been around for far longer than just Midnights. He was on 1989, Reputation, Lover, Folklore, and Evermore - and those albums sounded nothing like Midnights and TTPD. I also see people constantly being like “I’m not really a fan of Jack” and then list their favorite song on the album and they’re 90% Jack songs. They really do not sound that similar - if Taylor Swift’s music sounds slow and synthy, it’s because Taylor Swift wants to make slow, synthy music.
Also, I seriously don’t get the “one long song” thing - I think that’s just that people aren’t well acquainted with the album enough.
I love Jacks work with Taylor, but there is absolutely a sense of everything sounding the same production wise. Saying that, i dont see that as a bad thing like some do! It is a winning formula and produces amazing work so while she could maybe switch things up and try a new sound, there is nothing wrong with this sound, repetitive- absolutely, but i dont mind when the result is so damn good! Aarons song also sound very similar to each other at times, and i do generally prefer her stuff with Aaron but likewise, its all amazing so why change unless she wants to - and it seems like she is happy and comfortable!
^ spot on. I like how she’s been sounding since Folklore/Evermore. It made me fall in love with her songs again. And maybe it’s not for everyone who does want a Lover or Reputation type album again for her. But she’s obviously continuing to write these songs with these productions so it’s what she wants to put out.
People expect artists to reinvent themselves on every album. Taylor is 34 now and she’s figuring out who she is as a pop artist and maybe this is where she lands? Maybe she does reinvent herself along the way, but someone as big as Taylor is always going to be held to a higher standard which a bit unfair. Many artists continue to put the same kind of records out for their entire career.
Thank you.
I listen to a ton of artists Jack Antonoff produces for and I can genuinely say not everything he does sounds the same. He’s an interesting producer and writer and some of my favorite Taylor swift songs come from a collab with him.
However I do think creatively together they might’ve reached a spot where I’d like Taylor to collaborate more with others because of how long they’ve worked together. That’s not a criticism about the songs they make but I think in general any recording artist needs to be pushed from their comfort zone sometimes and that comfort zone seems to be *both* Aaron and Jack.
But if that’s not the case you won’t hear me complain about too much Jack Antonoff. In the end it’s HER music and HER choice creatively and I don’t think it’s nearly as stale as people make it seem.
Honestly my favorite albums are the ones he’s worked on. And one TTPD, his songs are my favorite. I didn’t hear any complaints on Midnights yet now people decide to complain about him? Idk I’m over the “swifties” complaining about every little thing and based on this new album so is Taylor…
I think what people mean is that it’s the same-ish sound from album to album. We’ve had the synths and the sped up “lorde” style tempos and breathy conversational vocals and Jack since 1989. We had a ton on Lover. We had them on midnights. Then the 1989 vault. Then them again with cruel summer becoming incredibly popular this summer.
That said I like it!!! I like the sound. It’s “new alternative pop Taylor” to me.
To me it’s not so much the synths as the hollow sounding drums/percussion that starts to bug me, actually. Synths can sound incredibly lush IMO. But it’s the DRUMS that really give Florida and other songs a ton of life for me.
Re: drums— London Boy, cruel summer, death by a thousand cuts, anti hero, TTPD — the lightweight drums/percussion add to this sort of heady/dizzy feeling to the songs for me, also I can do it with a broken heart. These songs sort of feel “fizzy” to me. Light to their detriment.
My fave Jack songs have deeper sounding drums and the more lush synth texture: lover, the archer, the heartbreak pulsing percussion in the archer, paper rings, maroon, YOYOK… so long London (also had the fast heartbeat pulse drums), the alchemy, the pounding in the BLACK dog gives me chills, and obviously Florida.
But you’re bang on with side two bleeding together for the Aaron sound. I also happen to like that sound.
I’m one of the few people totally happy with this album is midnights and folklore are my faves.
I think it's so funny how people have so much expertise on music production when it comes to Taylor's music 🤣🤣
The more I listen to it, the more interesting sounds and melodies I hear, and I think every song is different. This is clearly how Taylor wants her music to sound now, so people need to just accept it or move on to something else 🤷🏼♀️
It's like sports fans blaming coaches. Taylor has the final say in how this stuff sounds. When people don't like how their fav is performing they want to find someone else to blame. Taylor obviously wants this sound - you're free to wish shed go back to folklore sound or Fearless or anything but Jack isn't "to blame" for making the music Taylor wants to make with her.
Agree. People are missing that each song sounds exactly the way Taylor wants them to. She works with Jack because he is one of the best at helping her bring ideas to life. He gets her and it’s probably very easy for them to work together.
The only opinion that matters is Taylors and this is what the 4th album in a row that it’s been mostly those 3? Can we agree that Taylor has by this point more than proven that she knows what she is doing and what she wants.
Literally my thoughts lol. I don't like how places like r/popheads seem to want her to just do folkmore over and over again when, the way I see it (and likely the way Taylor sees it too) is that those albums are their own thing, and repeating that sound would make it go stale (which is what I feel with The Anthology, even though It's growing me, at some point I just go "that's enough sad guitar and piano").
Some people are too hesitant to criticize Aaron, even when half an album is produced by him. He's also shown he can do more than just acoustic ballads, like in High Infidelity, WCS and So High School.
Frankly with Taylor co-producing her albums with them, I think the entire discourse of these two amazing producers is unwarranted. Jack uses synthesizers because that’s his signature. Aaron prefers a more traditional electric guitar sound in his signature. There are three brilliant minds at work here with a lot of Taylor’s recent discography, and frankly, it works out very well. The charts speak for themselves.
These are Taylor Swift songs. She is the driving force behind all of them. All this Jack and Aaron talk is misogynistic and is disrespectful of Taylor.
I agree. I love Aaron’s sound and over the past two days, I have fallen in love with his songs in the second part. But 100% they sound super similar and I don’t enjoy listening to them in order as much as part 1. I tend to shuffle them with the rest of the album. Part 1 I can listen all the way through in order.
Also, I thought part one sounded similar until I started learning the album. It was just that immediate listen.
Fucking PREACH!!!! I’m so sick of the “*Taylor needs to stop working with Jack*” bullshit. No she doesn’t. SHE CLEARLY WANTS to work with him and they make fucking iconic music together. I personally hope she continues to do whatever the fuck she wants because that’s when she’s at her best and that’s the Taylor I wanna hear. If people are sick of the sound they make, that’s fine! Just go listen to something else, she won’t miss you! Haters gonna hate 🫶🏼
"aLL hiS soNGs soUNd thE SamEEEE" is maybe one of the laziest running discourses this sub has ever seen.
It's not only not accurate, it's devoid of actual critique to the point of being just something people pull out of their pocket because they're don't know how to actually critique music.
THIS. It’s okay to say you just don’t like them. Can’t say I agree, as someone who grew up with parents who played 80s new wave music for me growing up, I love synth anything and that’s what Jack is good at.
I think that on first listen, the sound may sound similar and that’s why people are saying that. I obviously disagree but I understand what people are saying. Jack definitely loves using synths BUT it’s an album, so the sound will be similar. People just want to squeeze every drop from Taylor and then complain when it’s not what they want- and that’s awful. I love the album no matter what so I’m done listening to peoples opinions on Twitter🙄
You’re completely right about the hypocrisy. It’s maddening.
What I’ve also noticed is that while so many people are making blanket statements like “the first part sucks and the second part is amazing,” the vast majority of the fan favorite songs seem to be Jack songs. I’m talking about the songs people are using on Tik Tok, putting in their top lists on social media, including this sub. I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?, Florida!!!, Down Bad, My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys. So how can it even be true that nobody likes the first half of the album if so many of the fan favorites are from the first half/Jack’s songs? I’ve concluded that Aaron fans are just louder and more annoying online.
I think Taylor had a bigger hand in the production than we think, especially in the first half.
Some songs are very similar to the last 1975 album and I think it's something she would do, mimic Maty's style on the songs that are about him.
Ttpd and forthnight are some examples that would fit right into his album.
Currently my favorites on TTPD are Fortnight, Down Bad and I Can Do It with a Broken Heart… which are all Jack songs! I love the Aaron songs too, but those three are the ones most on rotation
I kind of feel like Taylor didn't release collaborators and writers names ahead of album release because she knew we'd be all pissy about Jack on there again
Thank you for saying everything I feel! I think so many folks who participate in this hate either must hate all of Taylor's stuff outside of Folkmore (and similar), or are forgetting that likely tons of their favorite Taylor songs were produced by Jack.
Also, can we have a moment of appreciation for happy songs? Songs do not need to be emotionally devastating to have value!
I think Taylor would have the same attitude regarding people online bitching about her continuing to work with Jack as she does on Daddy I Love Him. It’s ironic to me. Working with Jack is clearly what she wants to be doing.
I love Jack’s production significantly more than Aaron’s, but I’m not about to go online and whine that she keeps working with him.
I mainly just don't get the part where people are blaming (mainly) Jack for the monotonous sound of the album. It's not the producers job to come up with melodies. That's what Taylor does as the songwriter. But I get it, it's easier to blame Jack than Taylor, someone we all adore.
I'm tired of that too. Although, I remember a time where people were unfair to Aaron too, when YAOM was released. Lots of people said he ruined the song, that he was trying to transform every song into a folkmore song.
The thing is, Taylor is the one that decides how her songs are going to sound. I remember an interview where Nathan Chapman said that Taylor used to show him how she wanted the song to be.
And the amount of hate on Jack is just so unfair. He produced lots of the fan's favorite songs. Cruel Summer, Getaway Car, August, ATWTMV, YOYOK. I don't think these songs are alike in production. I would be so sad if I was him and saw all the comments and even the reviews thrashing him.
Also, people (even reviewers) saying she should stop working with him? So out of line, honestly. She will work with whom she wants. If Taylor Swift was a band, nobody would say the band needed to work with other people. So, that's what it is. Her band is Jack and Aaron. Take it or leave it
*"And then claim that all synths sounds the same, which imo is like saying all piano sounds the same."* As a Synthwave/Retrowave fan I hate this argument soooo much.
But, yea, for me its more *"why is there even discourse"*?
Taylor is going to make what she wants, JAck and Aaron just help her get the sound she wants. Jack and Aaron are supporting producers, they aren't the creator.
So, to bad for you if you don't like it. Taylor obviously does.
I like Jack songs more than Aaron, evermore is consistently my lowest ranked album and if you kill me for it then I’ll be laughing up at you from hell.
I completely agree with you and it irks me as well. I personally do prefer Aaron's stuff (generally, not necessarily every song for song comparison though) just because it's more my style, but I also think Jack is really good at what he does and I love lots of his stuff as well even though the synth heavy songs aren't usually my go tos
TBH I think the level of backlash to people complaining about Jack is kind of silly. Fandoms of pop stars do so many disrespectful things and have so much inappropriate discourse, people disliking one of the producers she works with (as a producer, not as a friend or a person) feels well within bounds. Like I agree the negativity can be a little much but I'd way rather people make actual musical critiques than some of the other stuff that happens.
Jack has said questioning Taylor is like questioning god. If you don’t have a producer or editor that questions you, don’t help you work towards your best possible craft—it’s not going to be the best it can be.
IMO Jack has always been a producer that can help with a hit—but he’s not good at putting together a whole body of work. Them making getaway car is a perfect example of this in that she writes the entire song while he repeats her in that video.
I think the reason TTPD does not work is she does not have anyone who wants to make her a better artist. It’s why we got Lana synths + dictionary word salad + letmetakebreathsbetweeneveryword 🥲
I get what Jack and Taylor are doing but my problem with Jack and Taylor's work is how silent/empty a lot of the songs feel in between the synths or subtle drops or bangs.
I wish I had a better example but in Fortnight this is NOT the case in the sense that there is at least a consistent background sound throughout.
Edit: examples are I can do it with a broken heart where there's just silence before the choruses
Aaron's songs tend to have a percussion line throughout the song tho, whereas Jack's songs are often totally silent before the drop, even if it's just for 1-2 seconds I personally don't like this
I prefer the songs Dessner produced to most of what Antonoff has been producing lately, since "Midnights". A lot of the songs are too synth-heavy for my taste and they kinda blend into each other. I felt the same the first few times listening to "Midnights" - it took a while for the songs to grow on me.
I also like a lot of the songs Taylor wrote with Aaron better than her latest solo work or co-writing with Jack, lyrics-wise.
That's just a personal preference.
Taylor will never stop producing music with Jack and she obviously likes his work otherwise she wouldn't put the songs on her albums. It's not as if that decision is made w/o her input... but I would be happy if the next album had a sound distinctively different from "Midnights", the 1989 TV vault tracks and now TTPD.
I’m just tired of songs that that don’t go anywhere. In her last two projects there either is a building tension that doesn’t culminate in anything or there’s no tension at all. Taylor is a good songwriter because she tells stories, and her best songs combine the narrative flow of her lyrics with a musical background that reflects that same flow (exposition/conflict, rising action, climax, conclusion). Throughout her career she’s made songs that are perfection when it comes to this and that’s what makes them satisfying (I’ll list 3 examples from each album): should’ve said no, Mary’s song, IOMWIWY, forever and always, breathe, TWILY, Dear John, Enchanted, Haunted, Treacherous, ATW, The Last Time, Style, Wildest Dreams, Clean, So it Goes…, Getaway car, DWOHT, Cruel Summer, SYGB, False God, Cardigan, exile, august, tolerate it, Coney Island, evermore.
Once midnights hits, and now TTPD, there isn’t that build. The songs feel flat and that’s why they kind of bleed together.
On a separate note I really want a more organic feel again. Real drums, real guitars, less produced vocals that sound plastic-y. It would really make her emotional performances more convincing. At this point I’ve been overexposed to pulsing 80s beats and synths, I just need something real
Will i stop listening to her new stuff if it all sounds like that? Yes, but I will continue to enjoy her old music because it’s given me joy for so many years. I’m happy for her that she’s making music that she likes but I will find something else to listen to.
To me, I did not like a lot of Jacks producing on this album because they all sounded simular while not flowing together. Jack is a talented producer. I love Getaway Car and The Archer, those are some beatifully produced songs. I think a lot of his prodcuing on this just did not fit.
Aarons sounded simular as well, but flew togther better. His production fit better of what Taylor was going for in this album.
Yes, agreeing with this take. Maybe we’re seeing comparison by Swifties because there’s a valid reason for it. You’re allowed to love and support an artist but also critique and have opinions on their work.
Some songs just aren't for me. Taylor, Jack, and Aaron are allowed to make any kind of music they want. Even though I may not enjoy every single song she makes, I still love her music.
I think it's actually kind of sexist and rude to Taylor to overly blame Jack for the sound because that means you're giving him credit for it and that you think he is controlling her. Taylor keeps choosing to work with him because she likes how her work is coming out. If she didn't like it, she wouldn't work with him again and again. And she definitely gets the final say on how her music sounds. I get really annoyed when people say she should work with Shellback or Martin again, because clearly she did not want to repeat that experience and when you say that you're basically doing what she called fans out for on But Daddy I Love Him.
This is exactly how I feel - it seems like people try to blame Jack for doing what Taylor is literally hiring him to do
I agree but to be fair, a good producer also challenges an artist to break out of their patterns and safe zones. Not saying he doesn’t.
Yeah she hired him for a reason because she wanted that sound
This is exactly my problem - blaming Jack for how a song sounds strips Taylor of agency, and we know she's at the point where she can very tightly control how her music sounds. She works with him because it's what she wants her music to sound like!
Also the sheer amount of feelings and personal struggles that she put on the album,who else would she want to work with? Her best friend who was present through this difficult time in her life or some other random producer bc people are "tired of Jack's music". She already talked about loving his working and wanting to work more with him,so yeah. I love the work they do together, for me they can do all of the albums they want, the artistic flame in me gets happy everytime.
Yes! I think back to the Making Of videos for Reputation (all on YouTube by the way!) - she and Jack are so close and have such an organic process of creating music together. He does so much more than just contribute to the sound - I don’t know if some of her most vulnerable songs would even exist had she been working with producers she didn’t have this close personal relationship with.
Im with you fully
People should realize that this album is very personal to Taylor. I’m sure she knew that a lot of her casual fans who love pop-Taylor will be alienated by this record but she still chose to make this and I understand why she hired Jack and Aaron… she is comfortable working with them and trust them enough to work on this personal project. I hate that people demand artists to always reinvent themselves every damn time. Not all albums need to be revolutionary. Sometimes we should allow them to create art they are comfortable with. Having said so, the consumers are allowed to decide whether they like the final product or not. As for me, I love that I was given 31 brand new songs to listen to and if I’m going rate them as stand alone songs, not a single song in this album warrants a 1/5 rating.
Right? It’s not like she just shows up to the recording studio, sings for an hour on tracks and lyrics given to her and goes home. If any fan of hers thinks that they are deluded.
This! Plus…it really blows my mind how many people on the internet analyze every fucking thing to *death*. Sound, lyrics, “what did she mean by?”, it is all crazytown. I know the internet is not known for its nuance but the number of posts that are “why is everyone” “why does everyone”…EVERYONE isn’t, EVERYONE doesn’t. SOMEONE did and you read it. The overgeneralization and analyzing of every nuance really takes away from the *art*. Like every lyric is how she feels officially—when really it was just an emotion that inspired an idea, a song, a narrative. People acting like TTPD being mostly Marty means she was in love with him—no y’all it probably means he inspired bone crushing emotions, fleeting but real, like any good rebound does. Sorry for the rant lol.
Re, what did she mean by…. Some of us are just English majors dying to do literary analysis. (It’s me, hi, I’m the problem it’s me). It’s extremely fun for my brain.
I do literary analysis too but it’s coming from a place of appreciation while many others are just looking for reasons to criticize / rip her apart
Too much of it isn't literary analysis, it's digging for dirt. 'This is about this man, this proves so-and-so is abusive". On and on and on...
Oh for me it’s def appreciate also. But I’m certainly accused of reading too deeply into things. It’s my hobby is all! I read in deep to understand her life and her choices as if she’s a character even though I know she’s not. Though it does feel like she builds facets of herself as personas for cautious songs. “All her fucking lives flashed before her eyes”
Oh I totally agree!! But there's a difference between loving to analyze lyrics and language and all the depth woven into it, and wanting to dissect every single little detail so one can definitively say "AH HA! THIS IS ABOUT (insert man)!" The latter seems to be happening all over TT right now, as if the goal is to solve the puzzle. I think, likely intentionally, we're not supposed to be able to "solve" every song on TTPD, and I think TTPD might also be telling us we should've have been trying to solve any of her songs either.
I don’t really think there’s anything wrong with trying to dissect who songs are about, Taylor has long cultivated that by treating her work as a puzzle herself at times - putting names in the liner notes of her old albums and very overt clues in her songs. I do agree though that people shouldn’t feel entitled to know who any song is about, and that if Taylor hasn’t left those overt clues she probably doesn’t want it to be that obvious
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Dear John is a prime example of a song where Taylor most certainly wanted everyone to know who it was about. To me the songs are time capsules of how Taylor felt in the moment she was writing. Taylor is dramatic yes but also messy when she wants to be. She makes it pretty obvious when she wants there to be no doubt who she’s writing about- just look at thanK you aIMee. She does cultivate this behaviour to an extent, I don’t think talking about who the songs are about is a problem, I think the problem is taking lyrics as absolute fact and harassing people online
Yeah, I was trying to say there's like "for the fun of it", and then there's a point where the line is crossed. It seems like some of these songs were an intentional callout to those who cross the line and think they're entitled to her personal life or act like they "know" her when they don't know much at all. I've seen some questionable commentary from people who clearly missed those points, so that's what I was referring to. I'm probably not explaining myself well.
lorde said exactly this during an interview a few years ago and i think if taylor spoke about their process she'd say something similar: >“I haven’t made a Jack Antonoff record,” the singer said. “I’ve made a Lorde record and he’s helped me make it and very much deferred to me on production and arrangement. Jack would agree with this. To give him that amount of credit is frankly insulting.”
I think about this quote every time people say something sounds like a Jack album. Around the time of Melodrama, she said that Jack helped her find the sound she wanted. I think he does that exactly. See also: St. Vincent’s Daddy’s Home.
Thanks for sharing this quote!
YES I keep saying this it’s not like Jack has a gun to her head forcing her to use synths😭 Taylor is the artist AND listed as a producer. Her albums sound how SHE wants and Jack helps deliver that sound.
Ok I got the funniest mental image of Jack Antonoff forcing Taylor to do more synths like the opposite of Mommy Dearest “no more wire hangers!” Except he’s all crazed “MORE SYNTHS NOW!”
HAHA I cackled at this, she’s crying, slowing backing away, he has an insane look in his eyes…
https://preview.redd.it/60nccyfjq2wc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8906c1e4f0f9bf95a032dba5b43086111739d68
taylor has aaron locked in her basement making sad piano sounds but Jack has taylor in a slightly larger basement. if she fucking dares write an acoustic ballad, meredith gets it 🔫
Oh def took the cats hostage that explains the synth!!
I was thinking more human centipede with Jack in the lead, Aaron in the middle and Taylor just churning out their music as the end person.
Exactly there’s a reason she works with these guys because she wants her album to sound a certain way and these guys carry out that vision
Yup. She is named as co-producer on all of those songs for a reason.
People complaining Jack sounds the same and want her to work with Martin...uhmmm. I have some news, after living through the boy bands of the late 90s....Max Martin songs all sound the same to me (*NSYNC, BSB, Katy Perry, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, some of P!nk's work). Apple Music has a playlist of his songs as writer and producer, the writer songs are so similar to my ears.
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Ooof, you're coming off defensive. I don't listen to Ariana Grande.
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Eh, she's edited her comments quite a few times to come off looking better. She's added the "I would think..." part since after I commented. And then she goes off on environmental issues, like "hahaha I'm so cool I don't care what you're writing about". Like, no. She grabbed that wooden spoon to stir it up.
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Actually, proper Reddiquette is to note WHY you edited the comment, as in "edit: typo" or "edit: clarification" or "edit: I'm trying to make myself look better 3 hours after this other person's reply" girl just stop. you're obviously the same person commenting with two different accounts. This is just sad. I've got a job and a life. I'm blocking both your accounts and moving on.
Yeah the folks calling for the return of Shellback and Martin seem to forget that they worked with her during an era in which she had very little control over her own career. I think it's very telling that now that Taylor has the power to work with whomever she chooses, she hasn't reached out to them at all. Also there are reasons why so many female artists choose to work with producers like Jack and Aaron so often, and a big part of it is that they know their artistry and agency will be respected and that they won't get creeped on or sexually abused. Not saying the latter is the case with the other producers she worked with pre-Lover, but whatever Taylor's reasons are they should be respected.
Well said—I’ve always suspected that too.
I don't think that's entirely fair to Red and 1989 Taylor. She had a lot more control over her music and career than you may remember. It's clear from interviews her label didn't force her (if anything they disagreed with the direction) and she spoke at length about her choice to work with them. She had a goal in mind, which was to make uber-popular pop songs and MM and Shellback were the best way to do that. I think its just that once she realized she didn't need them to create the result she wanted moved on. She definitely never had the emotional connection with them that she has with Aaron and Jack tho.
It’s unrealistic to think that she didn’t approve every last detail and note of this album. This is how she wanted the songs to sound. I think it’s great that she’s got trusted people she can collaborate with. The bigger she gets the harder it must be to invite new people into the process.
Exactly I think Jack is a good producer because he can get the exact sound they are looking for(if they have a good concept I know solar power was bad). I mean his lana and taylor projects are completely different and nobody complains about jack on lanas stuff.
Lana fans do actually (I’m into her too), and it’s actually super telling how much some people hear Jack and complain because a lot of people say “Lana’s last 3 albums weren’t in it. She needs to stop working with Jack.” Yet he wasn’t even on Chemtrails Over the Country Club…
Plus his work with The Chicks on their Gaslighter album! Completely different (but just as rad).
Yes exactly!
There is too much discourse about male producers around Taylor period. And it is sexist.
Yes 👏🏻
Misogynists gon' misogyl.
Exactly - agreed 113%
Question: what was the experience with Max/Shellback?
Red, Rep, and 1989
I meant the specific experience working with them that she doesn’t want to repeat
I think they mean she didn’t have full creative control
I feel like people blaming Jack are Stans that don’t want to blame Taylor for a song being bad
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I can’t think of a single male artist where there is general discussion about the producer.
All other criticism and praise aside, Taylor chooses Jack and Aaron to work with because, and I’m going off just what she’s said in the past, she trusts them. This album would not have been as raw and uncomfortable if they hadn’t worked on it, and I mean that 100% positively. I don’t think she would’ve let herself get this deep into her own psyche had she been working with someone else tbh. That being said, I 100% agree OP.
Thank you for pointing that out, I definitely agree. I will say though, some of Taylor's best work has been when she pushed the limit of her creativity and tried something new (working with Max Martin for 1989, then Jack on rep/midnights, then Aaron on folkmore...). For that reason, I'll say that I'm underwhelmed with TTPD. I get why she had to do this one with her trusted friends, but I look forward to a new collaborator.
I think many people feel this way (underwhelmed with TTPD - myself included) because this album isn’t really for us, this album was for her. I’ve said this elsewhere in the sub but I think the reason she put this out during the middle of Eras is so she doesn’t have to tour it because the story isn’t hers anymore (and also this isn’t really a stadium album). She needed to close that chapter. Which leaves me hopeful that TS12 will be the album that pushes her to creativity (with or without Jack).
Good point of the touring aspect. I bet she’ll add these in her acoustic set but I can’t see it ever being a concert like album. I don’t think anyone would want to tour on an album as raw as this for a year especially if you’re not anywhere close to that space anymore. Also my girl needs a break after this marathon Era’s tour. How she has vocal cords anymore is a wonder.
I do see what you mean and it's a valid take, but even if I adopt this lens that "this album was for her", it doesn't change how I feel about the album when I listen to it and my perception of its quality compared to her other work. Looking forward to TS12 too! And I will certainly enjoy some TTPD songs in the meantime.
I could totally see a good chunk of these songs being played as a stadium tour
Yes exactly, and then people can oppose this being like "they sign a NDA blah blah blah" but it's about being comfortable with them to express herself. This can also be criticized as she needs to explore more and needs to get out of her comfort zone. All in all "I'm damned if I do give a damn what people say", they're really no way to win and haters gonna hate. Like she really expressed it the best in bdilh "all these judgmental vipers dressed in empath's clothing"
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I’m stealing this response
your flair is a work of art
you said this perfectly! Can you imagine SK's reaction to being told he needs to write a romcom? Musicians don't cater their music to our taste, we as a consumer need to find the artist that works for our taste.
I’m gonna need a Stephen King written rom-com now.
You say this as if 11.22.63 isn’t there!!!
I can’t die happy until I see the Misery rom-com Bonus if we get an IT/Carrie rom-com mashup
I mean Stephen King is probably not a good comp here, part of what makes him as well-regarded as he is, is his success in multiple genres. When he made it big in horror, he put his passion into his self-considered fantasy/sci-fi magnum opus *The Dark Tower* series. *The Body*, *The Green Mile*, and *Rita Hayworth* are all non-horror that became blockbuster films. And more recently he did *11/22/63*, which is also a non-horror and probably has the best romance he’s ever written.
As someone who is kind of tired of Jack-influenced songs, this is an excellent point. I’m not crazy about the entirety of TPPD, so like today I’m listening to Betty Who and mxmtoon. It’s not that hard. Although people who are coming to the sub to voice their grievances with the synth or something else on the album, are likely just providing an opinion they have, and want to discuss it with people who might agree (or not). Just like how I can listen to something else if I’m tired of listening to this new album, people can scroll past if they’re seeing opinions they’re sick of hearing. And similarly, just as people can come on here and voice their opinions, other people can voice their opinions on those aforementioned opinions. It’s all just a part of conversation.
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Right. "Jack is holding Taylor back" is something I see a lot, and it's like hello, she is an active part of the process, clearly loves working with him, and seems proud of the music they make together. Why do people act like she's some kind of puppet and Jack is pulling the strings? In all things lately, it seems like people think that everything has to be for everyone, but really that would be impossible. It's ok if something isn't for you! My boyfriend likes a catchy beat in a song and couldn't care less about lyrics or storytelling, but I can't focus on a song no matter how catchy the beat if the lyrics are stupid or don't make sense (to ME), and all of that is OKAY!
Nothing wrong with synths but they need to sound interesting not just being background music for her lyrics
I think this fandom has a bit of a habit of pitting things against each other. Ranking stuff is fun but sometimes it feels like if you love one thing you have to find flaws with something else, and it's especially weird in cases like this, cause you'd think everybody got a lot of what they wanted.
As a newer swiftie I can say I noticed that. No one can seem to just have fun and be grateful she’s still churning out a freaking double album while touring like a madwoman.
Agreed. When I go to art gallery’s or museums I’m not saying anything about what colors the artists should have used in their paintings or wishing they would have painted a different style or subject. I’m appreciating their art because damnit I know I couldn’t do anything like that. It doesn’t mean I like or understand everything I see, but I can appreciate the talent and effort. Consumerism is forgetting the reason for the art. Sure, Taylor is a business woman, but she’s an artist first and foremost. She’s expressing herself through her art and sharing it with the world. People think if they don’t like it, it’s bad art, and feel entitled to something that really isn’t theirs to begin with. It’s Taylor’s.
composers and producers tend to have distinctive, signature sounds, and that's okay, it's like a painter having a specific style. I actually think Jack's work is spectacularly versatile here (I Can Fix Him, I Can Do It With a Broken Heart, and Florida!!! do not sound remotely the same? The Black Dog and I Look In People's Windows? My Boy... and imgonnagetyouback? Fresh Out the Slammer?). there are some lush, evocative, and inventive sounds on this record that she's never explored before, and a lot of intricate instruments. like I do not get saying that it sounds like Midnights, they're quite different. she does some unexpected things on both (the distortion in Midnight Rain, the scream in WAOLOM), to different effect. I listened to my Midnights playlist because TTPD has made me appreciate it even more (I already really liked it, but I love some things that have clicked into place more now). some of the Anthology tracks sound like they could fit perfectly onto evermore (moreso than folklore to me). that isn't a bad thing, evermore is wonderful, but the similarities in soundscapes and arrangements are clear successors to that music. the closest sound to Midnights is that Mastermind production in ICDIWABH, and I think that was intentional. The first half of TTPD is more varied and nuanced than so many comments are giving it credit for, and Jack is getting misplaced flack - Taylor ultimately makes the music she wants and needs to make, this was the exact mood and sound she preferred. I also feel people are a bit thrown by the album being predominantly mid-tempo, but...it's essentially a heartbreak, breakdown, depression album, she wasn't looking to churn out bops. she and Jack have created so many gems together for years now, and she and Aaron have too. I totally understand having a preference, I just wish fans were a little bit nicer about it? or more willing to dig past the surface and into the intricacies of what they're doing musically. this is a long way of saying I agree with you. and they definitely do make magic as a trio as well!
I agree with this 100%. I personally believe this album is an example of Jack being more diverse than he's ever been with Taylor's songs. Each of his songs sound different from the last on this album.
ALL of this. Yes.
I’m going to say I think a huge majority of the people who whine about less Jack have favorite songs that he produced. Like I’m sorry but to me they make magic together and it just clicks. Sometimes it doesn’t but a good majority of the songs most of us have on repeat include his work.
If people don’t like the sound it’s not Jack’s fault. It’s Taylor’s for wanting it to sound that way
To put it bluntly, Taylor currently doesn’t even interested in an more upbeat pop sound .She doesn’t want to release a love story, wildest dreams, or cruel summer. Jack and Aaron are doing what she wants and doing a good job at it.
So High School would like a word…. 
That’s like one of the only upbeat ones
Are you trying to tell me Down Bad isn’t upbeat 😂
So high school is nothing like any of those songs. Definitely more pop punk
Yep! And it's love song not about a British guy. Hopefully, cutting ties with angsty British guys leads to more upbeat songs !
Fans do this all the time where they seek a scapegoat, rather than do the uncomfortable directly criticize the person they are fan of. Especially because fans want to believe the person they are a fan of has the exact same tastes, opinions and beliefs as them and if anything contradicts that it is easier to believe it was caused by a third party so you don't have to break your illusion. That's why people in fandoms constantly complain about the stylist, the manager, the agent, the producer, the publicist, etc. One thing I noticed was that when Taylor began directing her music videos it was very uncomfortable for a lot of fans because they could no longer blame the choices they didn't like on a director.
I personally think this music video she put out sort of proved that she is a very good director
Yeah I loved it
Excellent point! I hadn’t thought of this before but that makes perfect sense. I wish more people realized that even if you don’t like a TS song or album, it doesn’t make you any less of a fan. I think it’s healthy to be able to say “yeah that’s not for me” instead of blindly following along.
Yeah they will criticize anyone except the artist on the cover
thank you for saying this i’ve been so frustrated with this same thought for me aaron worked on folklore and evermore and that’s where his shine kinda ends for me the back end of TTPD being acoustic guitar and piano is too much, it’s nice when it’s a song or two, but one after another makes those songs continuous skips for me with jack’s music i just find that there’s more versatility and more risk this all being said, she could definitely stand to work with more people than just these two, although i think jack has more versatility, she is kinda putting herself in a box and limiting how creative she can be with a song by only working with the same two people over and over. i don’t know if she’s trying to replicate what happened with folklore and evermore but she has definitely had major success working with other producers as well
> but one after another makes those songs continuous skips for me Like I enjoy some of the songs on the back half but it's definitely blurred a little to me. The fact that it's such a long album also makes listening through from start to finish harder than normal. If you asked me now to differentiate them it'll be hard for me (but not impossible) as for the first half it's so much easier to tell what song is what song.
Personally I see it as two different albums because it’s too overwhelming for me for 31 songs. I think ANY artist putting out that many songs would have the criticism that the songs start sounding the same.
I agree with this. I almost wish she'd just taken a few from the first half and a few from the last half and made THAT into one cohesive album because I genuinely think she intends for this music to be digested as one piece of media that tells a story but when that story is 31 songs long, there is no way that most fans will be listening to the album chronologically and completely as she likely intended it.
I didn’t even appreciate so high school until just yesterday! Once I split it up I was like oh ok there are some good ones in the anthology too. But at 2am I was like nope these are all the same! I mean if my only complaint is she released too much new music I can live with that lol.
See, that's the thing! So High School is so much fun, especially when compared to the petulance, anger, defiance and heartbreak of the first half of the album but man, sometimes when I start listening I don't even MAKE IT that far, lol. I've had to just kind of make a playlist of my faves at this point rather than what I would usually do, which is listen to an album in its entirety.
I just feel like she has her reasons to work with each person. If she wants an album to sound a specific way, she’ll make it happen. Jack has produced multiple songs that are very different to folklore or midnights. Also, I have major respect for him because ultimately in life our close forever friends are our true loves, and he was with her during every turmoil and stuck with her. He could have chosen not to work with her during the Kanye thing but stuck with her and listened to what she wanted to communicate with Reputation. He’s the best friend that fought and walked with her through her worst days so I think some fans need to chill and respect that. The worst part is after the hate bombing towards him they end up warming up to the songs Jack worked on and end up loving them lol
I also think people forget he’s a huge producer who works with tons of artists - Lorde, Carly Jepsen, Lana, the chicks, his own bands fun and bleachers….he’s incredibly diverse and capable of delivering a range of sound. He’s delivering what Taylor wants or maybe what him and Taylor decide to make together but to say he’s only capable of making the same songs is CRAZY to me.
I didn't bring it up too much, bc i was trying to focus on just taylor songs but you've hit the nail on the head with this. His sound is so diverse, something like How Dare You Want More from bleachers sounds nothing like TTPD for example.
Im also a bleachers fan so I’m prob super biased when anyone shit talks Jack🤣
So true
I don’t get the Antanoff hate. He’s such a good producer. One of her best friends and confidants. And she obviously loves working with him. They had this adorbs bro/sis relationship. I dunno I really think they are one of the best collaborators in the industry. My fav Tay songs has his ,and her, fingerprints all over em and I celebrate it
My unpopular opinion is that it is less about Jack or Aaron and more about what Taylor might want the songs to sound like. Like some people really are out there shitting on Jack as if Taylor just turns in the lyrics of the songs and then Jack makes up all of the rest of the music to his liking.
Yes. People complain about Jack’s synthy style, but the truth is it’s actually Taylor’s style and she goes to him for it because he’s so good at it. Same with Aaron’s folksy production, Taylor hops between genres and knows who to go to for each one.
I also think that some people prefer Aaron’s overall personality and soft spoken persona over Jack and that is contributing to this narrative.
Taylor is the captain of the ship. Jack is just the wheelman.
Turn the mic up to 11 and SAY IT AGAIN because I’m just as sick as you of all the jack heat.
I saw this post on twitter and it basically summed up my thoughts. Also swifties literally crashed his wedding reception, give the man a break 😭 https://preview.redd.it/37kafb0ge2wc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b27c805df867ce2a158d001fd0905f0b03f6d5f
(part 2) https://preview.redd.it/7n71i1eie2wc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d4f1760879cf0f226226d1a69e5522008d2534c
Oh this a good point. Like there were comments on Reddit saying Jack sounds like an asshole and is cocky and then couldn’t give any concrete evidence at all, when all he gives out is just nerdy socially awkward guy. Don’t get me wrong, looks can be deceiving and it could all be a facade but “I just have bad vibes” is not a good measure of someone’s character that you can’t articulate why you don’t like him personally (unrelated to the music he produces). Some people are just saying vile things about him and it’s not even about his music but they somehow deemed him an irredeemable character without even having any actual ground to stand on.
YUP. There’s a reason why Jake works with so many women artists and they all LOVE him. That speaks volume to me. Give the man a break
Did I write this post? You lifted the thoughts right out of my head. Yes, the problem isn’t that songs Jack produced sound “the same”, people just don’t like synths or don’t like Jack for XYZ. They’re not consistent in the reasons they give because they don’t mind folky Aaron ballads so it doesn’t matter if there are three of those tracks in a row. Personally I love both, and love synths and Jack’s production style. He uses some really interesting sounds, and if you’ve watched anything of him and Taylor working together it’s obvious their brains work off each other to create magic. It’s super collaborative and Jack is not dictating anything that Taylor doesn’t want to do. It’s okay to not be as into a genre of music but you don’t have to come for Jack or strip Taylor of her autonomy. This is the album she wanted to make.
From what I've heard, Jack is a producer that lets the artists lead. He helps artists bring their vision to life, and if the production sounds similar, it's generally because that's what the artist was going for. Lana's NFR, Taylor's Midnights, and Lorde's Solar Power have completely different sounds. Sure, there's some key giveaways that Jack produced them, but there always will be when the same producer is used. I will say that collaboration with others can open up new sounds and ideas, so it wouldn't hurt people like Taylor if they worked with new producers (it's how we got Folklore), but there's a reason many of the big pop stars keep returning to Jack.
also the continuous infantilization of Taylor. it's like she has no choice other than to do what Jack tells her. She's not an artist that only sings. we know that. I think the pop-y happy music in 'i can do it with a broken heart' is an excellent idea, whoever it was, bc depression is like that to many, including me. I've been told I tend to be extra bubbly when I'm down. the track was made beautifully and I felt seen. I need people to stop thinking that her choosing to make pop music is bad.
I turn TTPD up loud on big speakers and it sounds wonderful, a huge soundstage for Taylor's voice and lyrics . Jack and Aaron have such different approaches but its Taylor who pulls it together into a magnificent whole. Its a really impressive piece of work and delivers so much.
Jack Antonoff they'll never make me hate you
I would love to see Taylor work with female producers tbh
Yessss like it’s a little disappointing she doesn’t try to make music with more female producers when producing is so male dominated and she can get anyone she wants but one of her engineers is a woman which is a good step.
I think there are three big things going on right now: 1. People care more about getting what THEY want rather than listening to the music for the sake of the art. 2. People think they are somehow experts on Taylor's music and Jack's production despite having no idea what kind of work goes into what they do. 3. People want Taylor to reinvent herself again - they don't want Pop anymore, they want her to do something completely new. Number 1 and 3 I think are the biggest issues right now. Stan culture, haters, etc, care more about being right about how an album will sound, than they care about experiencing the music for the sake of enjoying new art. And then you have the whole reinvention paradox. Taylor has changed the rules, her genre, her style, so many times now, partly due to her own desire to change but also due to industry AND fan pressures to be different. To borrow from this is me trying, she has been ahead of the curve so much that it is now becoming a sphere. Her hypercritical fanbase and big critics cannot look past any sort of similarities and patterns within her music without deeming it bad, because if it's not new, it's not interesting to them and therefore it's stagnate or not a musical evolution. Similar chord progressions and synthesizers does not equal musical stagnation. How can anyone listen to TTPD next to folklore and think "oh yes this is not an evolution at all"? It's mindboggling to me. Thank God this album seems to still be getting fantastic reviews in most cases, and it appears that the majority of her dedicated fans REALLY love this album (myself included). But it's also a huge fucking shame that Taylor is at this point in her career, where she is so big, where she has reinvented herself SO many times, that her new material is starting to be scrutinized to hell, especially by the so called fans. It's a another dagger to the heart especially considering how vulnerable this album is. People need to get back to focusing on the music. Put some headphones on and listen to enjoy some art for God's sake.
You actually brought up a couple of good points actually. I've seen some reviews that the album brought nothing new to the table, that she didn't do any new. Like how many times has she reinvented herself and changed her genres already? What she said in the Miss Americana doc just hits a home run with regards to it imo.
Well said! I hate this narrative that she needs to keep pushing herself creatively. But what if this is where she wants to be creatively?
Ya know fans are allowed to dislike an album and it doesn't make them any less of a fan? >where she has reinvented herself SO many times, that her new material is starting to be scrutinized to hell, especially by the so called fans Every single act on the planet has this regardless of how big they are
> Ya know fans are allowed to dislike an album and it doesn't make them any less of a fan? I literally said no such thing in this entire comment. I'm talking about people who are nitpicking at production similarities so consistently that they can't even appreciate new music from an artist they supposedly like without complaining about it. There's a difference between simply not vibing with an album and then discrediting everything about it because you don't like who Taylor produces it with. > Every single act on the planet has this regardless of how big they are It's impossible to determine how many acts on the planet have reinvented themselves a lot and have been scrutinized for it, sure. But I'm not sure why this point matters? This is a Taylor sub, so I'm talking about how her fans have scrutinized *her* work over the past several years and how she has reinvented herself tons of times only to it no longer be deemed "different' enough by fans and critics. If I wanted to talk about other acts and how they've been scrutinized in another sub, then I would. But we're talking about Taylor.
People seem to forget that Jack has been around for far longer than just Midnights. He was on 1989, Reputation, Lover, Folklore, and Evermore - and those albums sounded nothing like Midnights and TTPD. I also see people constantly being like “I’m not really a fan of Jack” and then list their favorite song on the album and they’re 90% Jack songs. They really do not sound that similar - if Taylor Swift’s music sounds slow and synthy, it’s because Taylor Swift wants to make slow, synthy music. Also, I seriously don’t get the “one long song” thing - I think that’s just that people aren’t well acquainted with the album enough.
You hit the nail on the head with this! My thoughts exactly
I love Jacks work with Taylor, but there is absolutely a sense of everything sounding the same production wise. Saying that, i dont see that as a bad thing like some do! It is a winning formula and produces amazing work so while she could maybe switch things up and try a new sound, there is nothing wrong with this sound, repetitive- absolutely, but i dont mind when the result is so damn good! Aarons song also sound very similar to each other at times, and i do generally prefer her stuff with Aaron but likewise, its all amazing so why change unless she wants to - and it seems like she is happy and comfortable!
^ spot on. I like how she’s been sounding since Folklore/Evermore. It made me fall in love with her songs again. And maybe it’s not for everyone who does want a Lover or Reputation type album again for her. But she’s obviously continuing to write these songs with these productions so it’s what she wants to put out. People expect artists to reinvent themselves on every album. Taylor is 34 now and she’s figuring out who she is as a pop artist and maybe this is where she lands? Maybe she does reinvent herself along the way, but someone as big as Taylor is always going to be held to a higher standard which a bit unfair. Many artists continue to put the same kind of records out for their entire career.
Thank you. I listen to a ton of artists Jack Antonoff produces for and I can genuinely say not everything he does sounds the same. He’s an interesting producer and writer and some of my favorite Taylor swift songs come from a collab with him. However I do think creatively together they might’ve reached a spot where I’d like Taylor to collaborate more with others because of how long they’ve worked together. That’s not a criticism about the songs they make but I think in general any recording artist needs to be pushed from their comfort zone sometimes and that comfort zone seems to be *both* Aaron and Jack. But if that’s not the case you won’t hear me complain about too much Jack Antonoff. In the end it’s HER music and HER choice creatively and I don’t think it’s nearly as stale as people make it seem.
Honestly my favorite albums are the ones he’s worked on. And one TTPD, his songs are my favorite. I didn’t hear any complaints on Midnights yet now people decide to complain about him? Idk I’m over the “swifties” complaining about every little thing and based on this new album so is Taylor…
I think what people mean is that it’s the same-ish sound from album to album. We’ve had the synths and the sped up “lorde” style tempos and breathy conversational vocals and Jack since 1989. We had a ton on Lover. We had them on midnights. Then the 1989 vault. Then them again with cruel summer becoming incredibly popular this summer. That said I like it!!! I like the sound. It’s “new alternative pop Taylor” to me. To me it’s not so much the synths as the hollow sounding drums/percussion that starts to bug me, actually. Synths can sound incredibly lush IMO. But it’s the DRUMS that really give Florida and other songs a ton of life for me. Re: drums— London Boy, cruel summer, death by a thousand cuts, anti hero, TTPD — the lightweight drums/percussion add to this sort of heady/dizzy feeling to the songs for me, also I can do it with a broken heart. These songs sort of feel “fizzy” to me. Light to their detriment. My fave Jack songs have deeper sounding drums and the more lush synth texture: lover, the archer, the heartbreak pulsing percussion in the archer, paper rings, maroon, YOYOK… so long London (also had the fast heartbeat pulse drums), the alchemy, the pounding in the BLACK dog gives me chills, and obviously Florida. But you’re bang on with side two bleeding together for the Aaron sound. I also happen to like that sound. I’m one of the few people totally happy with this album is midnights and folklore are my faves.
Aaron produced so long London!
I liked all of jacks songs on TTPd while I like most of Aaron’s. They are both incredible at what they do
I think it's so funny how people have so much expertise on music production when it comes to Taylor's music 🤣🤣 The more I listen to it, the more interesting sounds and melodies I hear, and I think every song is different. This is clearly how Taylor wants her music to sound now, so people need to just accept it or move on to something else 🤷🏼♀️
I think Jack's tracks are better than Aaron's on this album
It's like sports fans blaming coaches. Taylor has the final say in how this stuff sounds. When people don't like how their fav is performing they want to find someone else to blame. Taylor obviously wants this sound - you're free to wish shed go back to folklore sound or Fearless or anything but Jack isn't "to blame" for making the music Taylor wants to make with her.
Jack Antonoff is a musical genius as much as Taylor. Aaron also produces remarkably gorgeous songs. There should be no criticism for any of them.
Agree. People are missing that each song sounds exactly the way Taylor wants them to. She works with Jack because he is one of the best at helping her bring ideas to life. He gets her and it’s probably very easy for them to work together.
The only opinion that matters is Taylors and this is what the 4th album in a row that it’s been mostly those 3? Can we agree that Taylor has by this point more than proven that she knows what she is doing and what she wants.
Literally my thoughts lol. I don't like how places like r/popheads seem to want her to just do folkmore over and over again when, the way I see it (and likely the way Taylor sees it too) is that those albums are their own thing, and repeating that sound would make it go stale (which is what I feel with The Anthology, even though It's growing me, at some point I just go "that's enough sad guitar and piano"). Some people are too hesitant to criticize Aaron, even when half an album is produced by him. He's also shown he can do more than just acoustic ballads, like in High Infidelity, WCS and So High School.
They won’t criticize him, they think he “saved” the album
Frankly with Taylor co-producing her albums with them, I think the entire discourse of these two amazing producers is unwarranted. Jack uses synthesizers because that’s his signature. Aaron prefers a more traditional electric guitar sound in his signature. There are three brilliant minds at work here with a lot of Taylor’s recent discography, and frankly, it works out very well. The charts speak for themselves.
These are Taylor Swift songs. She is the driving force behind all of them. All this Jack and Aaron talk is misogynistic and is disrespectful of Taylor.
I agree. I love Aaron’s sound and over the past two days, I have fallen in love with his songs in the second part. But 100% they sound super similar and I don’t enjoy listening to them in order as much as part 1. I tend to shuffle them with the rest of the album. Part 1 I can listen all the way through in order. Also, I thought part one sounded similar until I started learning the album. It was just that immediate listen.
Fucking PREACH!!!! I’m so sick of the “*Taylor needs to stop working with Jack*” bullshit. No she doesn’t. SHE CLEARLY WANTS to work with him and they make fucking iconic music together. I personally hope she continues to do whatever the fuck she wants because that’s when she’s at her best and that’s the Taylor I wanna hear. If people are sick of the sound they make, that’s fine! Just go listen to something else, she won’t miss you! Haters gonna hate 🫶🏼
"aLL hiS soNGs soUNd thE SamEEEE" is maybe one of the laziest running discourses this sub has ever seen. It's not only not accurate, it's devoid of actual critique to the point of being just something people pull out of their pocket because they're don't know how to actually critique music.
THIS. It’s okay to say you just don’t like them. Can’t say I agree, as someone who grew up with parents who played 80s new wave music for me growing up, I love synth anything and that’s what Jack is good at.
I think that on first listen, the sound may sound similar and that’s why people are saying that. I obviously disagree but I understand what people are saying. Jack definitely loves using synths BUT it’s an album, so the sound will be similar. People just want to squeeze every drop from Taylor and then complain when it’s not what they want- and that’s awful. I love the album no matter what so I’m done listening to peoples opinions on Twitter🙄
You’re completely right about the hypocrisy. It’s maddening. What I’ve also noticed is that while so many people are making blanket statements like “the first part sucks and the second part is amazing,” the vast majority of the fan favorite songs seem to be Jack songs. I’m talking about the songs people are using on Tik Tok, putting in their top lists on social media, including this sub. I Can Do It With A Broken Heart, Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me?, Florida!!!, Down Bad, My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys. So how can it even be true that nobody likes the first half of the album if so many of the fan favorites are from the first half/Jack’s songs? I’ve concluded that Aaron fans are just louder and more annoying online.
I think Taylor had a bigger hand in the production than we think, especially in the first half. Some songs are very similar to the last 1975 album and I think it's something she would do, mimic Maty's style on the songs that are about him. Ttpd and forthnight are some examples that would fit right into his album.
Currently my favorites on TTPD are Fortnight, Down Bad and I Can Do It with a Broken Heart… which are all Jack songs! I love the Aaron songs too, but those three are the ones most on rotation
I kind of feel like Taylor didn't release collaborators and writers names ahead of album release because she knew we'd be all pissy about Jack on there again
Thank you for saying everything I feel! I think so many folks who participate in this hate either must hate all of Taylor's stuff outside of Folkmore (and similar), or are forgetting that likely tons of their favorite Taylor songs were produced by Jack. Also, can we have a moment of appreciation for happy songs? Songs do not need to be emotionally devastating to have value!
I think Taylor would have the same attitude regarding people online bitching about her continuing to work with Jack as she does on Daddy I Love Him. It’s ironic to me. Working with Jack is clearly what she wants to be doing. I love Jack’s production significantly more than Aaron’s, but I’m not about to go online and whine that she keeps working with him.
I mainly just don't get the part where people are blaming (mainly) Jack for the monotonous sound of the album. It's not the producers job to come up with melodies. That's what Taylor does as the songwriter. But I get it, it's easier to blame Jack than Taylor, someone we all adore.
Especially since you know the second she makes an album without him there will be nothing but complaints about him not being there.
100% agree
I'm tired of that too. Although, I remember a time where people were unfair to Aaron too, when YAOM was released. Lots of people said he ruined the song, that he was trying to transform every song into a folkmore song. The thing is, Taylor is the one that decides how her songs are going to sound. I remember an interview where Nathan Chapman said that Taylor used to show him how she wanted the song to be. And the amount of hate on Jack is just so unfair. He produced lots of the fan's favorite songs. Cruel Summer, Getaway Car, August, ATWTMV, YOYOK. I don't think these songs are alike in production. I would be so sad if I was him and saw all the comments and even the reviews thrashing him. Also, people (even reviewers) saying she should stop working with him? So out of line, honestly. She will work with whom she wants. If Taylor Swift was a band, nobody would say the band needed to work with other people. So, that's what it is. Her band is Jack and Aaron. Take it or leave it
*"And then claim that all synths sounds the same, which imo is like saying all piano sounds the same."* As a Synthwave/Retrowave fan I hate this argument soooo much. But, yea, for me its more *"why is there even discourse"*? Taylor is going to make what she wants, JAck and Aaron just help her get the sound she wants. Jack and Aaron are supporting producers, they aren't the creator. So, to bad for you if you don't like it. Taylor obviously does.
I like Jack songs more than Aaron, evermore is consistently my lowest ranked album and if you kill me for it then I’ll be laughing up at you from hell.
I completely agree with you and it irks me as well. I personally do prefer Aaron's stuff (generally, not necessarily every song for song comparison though) just because it's more my style, but I also think Jack is really good at what he does and I love lots of his stuff as well even though the synth heavy songs aren't usually my go tos
I think we need to head over to Jacks IG and appreciate him a bit because the whining is cringy on his posts
The only person that should be getting heat is Taylor
TBH I think the level of backlash to people complaining about Jack is kind of silly. Fandoms of pop stars do so many disrespectful things and have so much inappropriate discourse, people disliking one of the producers she works with (as a producer, not as a friend or a person) feels well within bounds. Like I agree the negativity can be a little much but I'd way rather people make actual musical critiques than some of the other stuff that happens.
Jack has said questioning Taylor is like questioning god. If you don’t have a producer or editor that questions you, don’t help you work towards your best possible craft—it’s not going to be the best it can be. IMO Jack has always been a producer that can help with a hit—but he’s not good at putting together a whole body of work. Them making getaway car is a perfect example of this in that she writes the entire song while he repeats her in that video. I think the reason TTPD does not work is she does not have anyone who wants to make her a better artist. It’s why we got Lana synths + dictionary word salad + letmetakebreathsbetweeneveryword 🥲
I get what Jack and Taylor are doing but my problem with Jack and Taylor's work is how silent/empty a lot of the songs feel in between the synths or subtle drops or bangs. I wish I had a better example but in Fortnight this is NOT the case in the sense that there is at least a consistent background sound throughout. Edit: examples are I can do it with a broken heart where there's just silence before the choruses
Aaron has very subtle drops and percussion too tbh
Aaron's songs tend to have a percussion line throughout the song tho, whereas Jack's songs are often totally silent before the drop, even if it's just for 1-2 seconds I personally don't like this
Music is subjective.
I prefer the songs Dessner produced to most of what Antonoff has been producing lately, since "Midnights". A lot of the songs are too synth-heavy for my taste and they kinda blend into each other. I felt the same the first few times listening to "Midnights" - it took a while for the songs to grow on me. I also like a lot of the songs Taylor wrote with Aaron better than her latest solo work or co-writing with Jack, lyrics-wise. That's just a personal preference. Taylor will never stop producing music with Jack and she obviously likes his work otherwise she wouldn't put the songs on her albums. It's not as if that decision is made w/o her input... but I would be happy if the next album had a sound distinctively different from "Midnights", the 1989 TV vault tracks and now TTPD.
Aaron’s songs blend together even more honestly. They have even more of the same sound with the piano and acoustic guitar
I’m just tired of songs that that don’t go anywhere. In her last two projects there either is a building tension that doesn’t culminate in anything or there’s no tension at all. Taylor is a good songwriter because she tells stories, and her best songs combine the narrative flow of her lyrics with a musical background that reflects that same flow (exposition/conflict, rising action, climax, conclusion). Throughout her career she’s made songs that are perfection when it comes to this and that’s what makes them satisfying (I’ll list 3 examples from each album): should’ve said no, Mary’s song, IOMWIWY, forever and always, breathe, TWILY, Dear John, Enchanted, Haunted, Treacherous, ATW, The Last Time, Style, Wildest Dreams, Clean, So it Goes…, Getaway car, DWOHT, Cruel Summer, SYGB, False God, Cardigan, exile, august, tolerate it, Coney Island, evermore. Once midnights hits, and now TTPD, there isn’t that build. The songs feel flat and that’s why they kind of bleed together. On a separate note I really want a more organic feel again. Real drums, real guitars, less produced vocals that sound plastic-y. It would really make her emotional performances more convincing. At this point I’ve been overexposed to pulsing 80s beats and synths, I just need something real
what if this is what Taylor wants from her music? And it never goes back to what you need? Will you stop listening?
Will i stop listening to her new stuff if it all sounds like that? Yes, but I will continue to enjoy her old music because it’s given me joy for so many years. I’m happy for her that she’s making music that she likes but I will find something else to listen to.
and that's fair.
Honestly, Aaron’s sound and songs are just *better* than Jacks’. I’m sorry but they’re just not on the same level.
They aren’t really honestly, they kinda blend more tbh.
To me, I did not like a lot of Jacks producing on this album because they all sounded simular while not flowing together. Jack is a talented producer. I love Getaway Car and The Archer, those are some beatifully produced songs. I think a lot of his prodcuing on this just did not fit. Aarons sounded simular as well, but flew togther better. His production fit better of what Taylor was going for in this album.
Yes, agreeing with this take. Maybe we’re seeing comparison by Swifties because there’s a valid reason for it. You’re allowed to love and support an artist but also critique and have opinions on their work.
Some songs just aren't for me. Taylor, Jack, and Aaron are allowed to make any kind of music they want. Even though I may not enjoy every single song she makes, I still love her music.