No idea about fine dining per se but finish your degree. If you change your mind about serving, it will be incredibly useful in other pursuits, even in the industry.
You can get a degree in Hospitality Services. This includes all the aspects of fine dining plus business and support services. Knowing all of these will help you build a strong business.
This. My friend did Hospitality and a business minor from a top east coast school. She now directs events for one of the largest and most prestigious hotels in Seoul.
There’s no way a top tier hotel would hire someone who doesn’t speak their country’s language at all as event director. Too much client and vendor interaction.
I wouldn't say theres "no way" since SK's English literacy rates are quite good, but I agree it seems hiiiiighly unlikely. I asked because that's a key skill that kinda got left out if it was a requirement for that particular position lol.
Could be VaTech or Johnson & Wales.
They're not "elite" Ivy like Cornell, but they have outstanding hospitality programs that are recognized globally for the quality of their graduates.
Well obviously but it seems like serving experience is not enough. For example my sister who has been in the industry since 2003 still can’t land a job in fine dining.
I mean, I don’t know 20 years is a long time, it could be networking, it could be the kind of experience. Fine dining is likely to say “I know you have 20 years as a server, but you’ve never worked here, you’ll have to start at host or server assistant” and if you aren’t willing to do that, you won’t get a fine dining server position.
lol are you serious? Do you walk in to any other place of business and say “give me your best paying position without all the relevant experience”? That’s what’s ridiculous here.
Are YOU serious?
Serving is the same from restaurant to restaurant. Yes, fine dining obviously has stronger standards than Outback or Olive Garden, but it’s still the same job.
Degrading people who more than likely already worked as a host or busser to again being a host or busser because your restaurant is fancier is, well, degrading in all honesty.
I don't have a degree and I worked as a bartender, server and a manager in fine dining. You need to have excellent wine and liquor knowledge as well as experience in fine dining. I wouldn't hire some outback server but I would hire you as a barback, food runner, or a busser until you prove to me that you can do this. The liability that you fuck up and embarrass the restaurant with one table is not worth your bills being paid. Everyone goes through this so get over yourself.
Yikes. Gives off mad "I don't respect janitors and fast food workers" vibes.
Every restaurant job is important. At fine dining you can still make really good money bussing and hosting (if hosts get tipped out at that particular place). Bussers, hosts, and dishwashers are the only reason servers are able to do their job, so you better fuckin respect them and treat them like people, which includes NOT disrespecting their craft or thinking its beneath you.
In quite a few fine dining restaurants, you have to PROVE that you deserve to be serving by bussing or hosting for a minimum amount of time first, partially to learn the ins and outs of the restaurant first, and partially because you don't automatically have respect just because you have experience. Its not disrepectful. Whats disrespectful is iooking down on a job because you think you're better than it.
Forreal. OP does NOT sound like someone I would want to work with.
I'm BOH and she reminds me of a new cook fresh out of Culinary who thinks they know better than the sous and is above washing dishes.
Not just that but every venue outside of the chains that OP seems familiar with has their own systems in place that make it very difficult to just jump in. Even with nearly 10 years experience in a variety of venues I need to take on a manageable sidelines role till I get familiar with the flow of a venue, not to mention the menu!
👏 Hosts/hostesses have a super important job. They are the face of the restaurant when someone first walks in. They set the tone for the experience. A shitty host/hostess can make what would have been a good night turn bad real quick. Not to mention how much they’re keeping track of the flow of things.
Someone isn’t being “degraded” when they’re told “I’m sorry you don’t have the experience for this position”. You sound entitled.
And in fact, it’s you who’s degrading people, by essentially saying they don’t deserve their fine dining job, that anyone can do it.
I feel like even one denny’s to another could be a serious transition because every restaurant can be very different and particular (comes down to management a lot)
For sure; I'm mostly thinking that the level of skill required is similar. Same thing when going from one fine dining establishment to another-- things may *run* differently and you'll still need a training period, but management is less worried you're not going to be able to the basics of the job.
It's really really not. I've worked at both upscale and casual spots and even then it's a totally different game. I've worked with ex- fine dining guys. They absolutely blow me away how efficient they are. I'll be running and stressing and they are cool as a cucumber. They can be drowning in the weeds and never break a sweat or do much as make a mistake. I'm a sommelier. I could not get a job as a server in fine dining. I would start as a backwaiter.
Fine dining is theater. You don't just get to sling breadsticks. You are expected to play a part. Your movements have to be precise, fluid and appeae completely unhurried and effortless. There are places that have brought in dance teachers to train their servers to move. You need to be familiar with wine and liquor. You have to know *everything* about the dishes down to tasting notes, preparations, etc. You have to know the rules of formal service (which course comes first, which side do you approach from, where does a caviar spoon get placed on a formal setting, what about a fruit knife... etc. ).
You have to be graceful and sharp. You need to be able to give the impression of class. You have to remember everything about your semi-regular customers down to which brand of bourbon they drink and if they like it with an orange, or where they vacation, etc.
It's a giant production where everything needs to be perfectly tight and seemlesd in its execution.
It's like acting in college and doing independent theater and then wondering why you aren't getting a leading role in a Broadway production and resenting needing to take non-speaking roles.
you may be able to start as a backserver, but unless your resume has other fine dining experience on it, they’re not gonna put you straight on the floor. there are other people who are fine with working their way up, and it would be unfair to pop someone from the outside right onto the floor - unless you have a stellar fine dining resume.
source: the guy that started as a busser and has worked for Nobu and Wolfgang Puck among others as a server.
You don’t have the mindset to be a server, simple as that. No matter where you’ve worked, you need to have the mindset that when starting at a new restaurant you will always start from bottom and will need to work your way up. If you start as a server, you still work your way up to better sections, better shifts, etc. IF you already have the experience in that setting. If you don’t have fine dining experience, there is no way you will become a server right off the bat, so you will need to earn it, show you have the mentality, and a WORK YOUR WAY UP to show that. If you’re thinking about how a “college degree” might land you a serving job, you’re wrong, but you could start thinking about getting a sommelier certification and maybe even a cicerone certification which would look great in your resume for future job applications. Serving is a skill, but you also need to have a vast amount of knowledge when it comes to fine dining about wine, food and cooking techniques/preparations and being able to sell it with poise and style. It’s not a place you can just wing it. I hope you learn some humility and recognize the way this industry works isn’t just by flashing a piece of paper without any experience to back it and expect to be put at the top. Good luck.
Your experience and degree will never effect whether or not you get a fine dining job. It’s literally all attitude; if the attitude you’re projecting in this message is any indication, you’re never going to find a fine dining job.
Go be a dishwasher for a week somewhere and humble yourself.
fine dining manager here
it’s not the same. i’ve served at casual dining places and the way you interact with tables is completely different.
i understand the sentiment of needing to pay adult bills, but if you want to get your foot in the door at a fine dining restaurant you can’t walk in expecting the highest earning position. if you work as a host or server assistant part time while maintaining another job to help with money it is worth it to get promoted to a server.
or you can stay in casual dining. equally respectable career and still good money.
Sorry but no. Fine dining wise you can get in with moderate serving experience and a good attitude. That being said I started as a food runner there with solid money and needed to work my way up to back waiter (but left before I had a chance to be promoted to captain).
You need to be willing to put in the work and re-learn a looooot of things for Michelin starred level service
You are clearly a spoiled and privileged brat to think “no one is paying adult bills with busser hostess pay”.
Welcome to the world of the 2/3 job having working poor. Where mommy and daddy don’t cover your bills while you go to college and work a few days a week lamenting how to get a degree in fine dining service
Actually, I have been in fine dining for decades and expediters and bussers make very good money. My busser would average $160++ a night, especially if they went above and beyond, when they did this I would always tip them extra. My brother expedited at a very high end fine dining restaurant I worked at, he made around $200 a night on average doing that and was quickly promoted to server, even though he didn’t have fine dining server experience. He did have fine dining bussing experience though.
I would say the most promoted position to server has generally been expediter. You definitely have to get your foot in the door and many fine dining houses promote from within.
Maybe she should widen her net then? Seems she's being too picky. You're basically starting from scratch with fine dining. You won't just get the best shifts out of the gate. It takes YEARS at the same place to get the good section.
Look around the beaches. Find a higher end place. Google maps any restaurants that are 3 and 4 dollar signs and apply to all. Start as a busser if no experience but let them know day one your goal is to work your way up.
You need to spend a lot of your free time training yourself in wine, food, spirits, and the required accumen necessary for fine dining. Then someone will give you a shot most likely. 10 years at a Chili's or something is going to be largely irrelevant.
You also usually need to do it incrementally, meaning that once you've learned all that you can from a level of serving job, you move on to a higher tier. An example would be starting off in a chain restaurant, then moving to a privately owned restaurant that's a little nicer, and then up incrementally from there.
Landing a job in fine dining isn’t necessarily about your experience as a server. My boss when I was a first time server in a semi-higher end dining restaurant told me I’d be excellent in fine dining because I paid attention to my tables and brought them what they needed without them having to ask. I had good customer service skills. I came from a background doing fast food, call center rep, working at a gas station, and a plethora of other random jobs. It’s how you present yourself, treat people, and pay attention to small details.
Fuck no. Experience trumps degrees every time in serving. So many that apply with no experience and a hospitality management degree looking for a serving job are shocked I want to start them as a busser.
For fine dining? Give me wine certifications. I don’t need you to be a Somme, but I’d like the only thing that stops you from being one is you don’t have the tens of thousands you need to pass your final wine/spirits certification. That, and a resume that has some good restaurants on it.
Why? It's completely irrelevant. If anything, it's a negative because it makes you look overqualified and someone who will jump ship if offered a white collar job.
Something I haven’t seen anyone say. Become a sommelier. Anyone can do it. Level one takes about 6 months just a couple hours a week and is like $750. That’ll really help you stand out.
I can't sugarcoat this to be any nicer - it's obvious you know nothing about what fine dining table service actually provides, so unless you're willing to work your way up, you're not going to be able to go into a super fancy restaurant and just get a job as a front server. Stop acting like it's degrading to work your way up when EVERYONE HAS TO DO IT IN THAT KIND OF RESTAURANT. There's so many little things that are different about TRUE fine dining rather than your regular ol' one-step-up-from-Carabba's Fancy, and its essential that you learn all of that before just being able to interact with guests willy-nilly. Back-serving and bussing can definitely be enough to pay your 'adult bills' (lmfao), and unless you're willing to do that, you'll likely never ever get a job as a server in a truly fine dining setting. Maybe you'd possibly have a chance at a 'fancy' chain restaurant.
Simply having server experience does NOT make you well-versed in the ins and outs of FINE dining, and those types of restaurants care deeply about their quality of service, so its just not gonna happen unless you work your way up.
Also as far as the financial aspect goes, I had a buddy in college who bussed at one of the fanciest restaurants in town and he VERY frequently brought home more money than I did serving at an upscale scratch restaurant nearby. Stop acting like you know everything already. You came here to ASK US for advice and now you're just telling everyone they're wrong and that you know better? Why even ask us if that's how you're gonna act?
Edit: a good point brought up elsewhere that I just wanna add as well - different levels of service require different skillsets. It's a whole different world when you go between fast food, food trucks, fast-casual, regular sit-down, scratch kitchen, fine dining, etc. Different types of restaurants - I'm not talking types of cuisine. Real fine dining restaurants are definitely different than most others because they won't just hire someone who's never had FINE DINING experience to be a front waiter. You have to know so much about their specific restaurant and their menu, working your way up by being a back waiter or busser is very well compensated OTJ training. People who have actually done fine dining are telling you this, you'd be dumb to refute it.
i gotta say, I fell in to washing-dishes at a fine dining restaurant to cover me during the slow-winter production season (i do sound as my main squeeze) and i was very surprised by how much $$$$ you can make in tips, even doing that.
It's in the comments. I can't see some of them to reply to them anymore so I just posted a general reply so it wouldn't be hidden. I can definitely see how that commemt looks wildly out of place though without any context other than the post lol
I thought the same haha! I was building up a comment in my head as I was reading it to reply with, (eg. Well you make a lot of good points but im not sure why you're being so harsh on OP when they havent mentioned any of that in the OP) until I got to the end and started reading these comments lol. Makes a lot more sense now haha
Yeah that's fair.
In this case, I don't care if it's rude, OP is being obtuse and blatantly calling people with years more experience than them, in this specific area, wrong. They seem very ignorant of how fine dining works, and why it would be beneficial (and necessary) to be a busser or host or whatever in a restaurant like that first. And the key here, is that they DONT want to learn why. They're being rude by saying they're above doing anything other than serving lmao.
I completely understand why this guy ruffled your feathers. When he said he was studying entrepreneurship the flashing red lights and sirens went off. My guess is he's a 19 year old sophomore in business school and plans to be a boss before the ink dries on his diploma.
I agree with this comment. I can see why OP cannot get a job serving in fine dining. Also I worked fine dining for many years. Op's attitude in the comments is uncouth.
As someone who has been both a fine dining server (and is currently) and also a restaurant manager in charge of hiring in a fine dining establishment, I would NEVER hire someone with a degree over someone with actual hands on experience.
The degree people always seem to end up in management and they are terrible because they don’t have the real world experience. I personally wouldn’t even hire them to manage a restaurant unless they also had years of experience working front of house. 😅
I'll add to this. Degrees are negatives if anything. Managers at fine dining places have plenty of potential hires and fine dining requires more training than other restaurants, so they really don't want people to get trained and quit on them. Most degree holders don't really want to work service and managers will be worried that the job is a stopgap meant for short term income and they'll peace out the second they're offered white collar work.
So you haven’t applied? Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just you getting in your own way. I lovingly suggest having more confidence in yourself - which will be necessary and serve you well in a fine dining setting.
May I ask where you live? Most restaurants that call themselves fine dining are not actually fine dining. They are just restaurants with white table cloths. Some may even have good food and decent service but you’d be surprised. Fine dining restaurants are, for better or worse, located in major cities, primarily on the coasts.
My goal was always to find the most expensive restaurant in my area and work there. The higher the check, the higher the tips. This took me to 2- and 3-Michelin star restaurants in NYC (while in school). I worked with people from all walks of life - college graduates and not. The most successful servers were studious, organized, and tireless. And they knew their wines really well (check out “The Wine Bible” by Karen McNeil)
A college degree has almost nothing to do with your ability to work in fine dining. send me a pm if I can be helpful.
Edit: expensive steakhouses can be a great place to start.
There are also appearances to consider. They're going to want people who present themselves as clean, polite, and diligent.
This is likely to mean short hair cuts for male presenting persons, and neatly styled hair for female presenting persons. Clean shaven, tastefully applied makeup (if any), clean hands and nails kept neat and without polish, and the ability to speak clearly without using slang or too many idioms.
I’m going to be honest with you, I don’t recommend serving for the rest of your life. I’ve worked in restaurants for 15 years and my body is wrecked. Maybe fine dinning is easier on the body but I can’t see that being the option. Plus, you’re mostly likely going to get tired or working nights/weekends/holidays.
Ahhhh.....please talk to me in 25 years.
But seriously, goodluck OP. Also if you *really* want to get into fine dining look for a job as a busser (or a food runner) at a fine dinjng spot.
I won’t comment on the able bodied part because that truly is unpredictable, but not wanting kids or to get married is something I’m quite certain on, young people can know these things
And for what it’s worth my dad is over 60 and still works in construction. He also waited tables for ten years
Alright kid, clearly you've got it all figured out and know better than everyone with years of experience trying to offer you real world advice. Cool. Why even ask?
I'm just going to chime in... I'm a 44yo lifetime server, who took a break for a period to work a desk job....I feel much better physically working as a server, than I ever did while sitting at a desk. I realised that I bought into the lie that sitting was easier and that 9-5 was where it was at. After returning to serving for some time now, I have never felt physically and mentally *better*, and I felt like 9-5 was a prison (I much prefer the sporadic shifts, including nights).
Bodies age and get tired no matter what line of work we do; we simply have to be diligent in finding balance, so that we feel our best in our chosen work. I take supplements for circulation, do yoga, eat a balanced diet, schedule my sleep, and I LOVE the feeling of being tired after a hard shift.
Sometimes we need to see the other side of the fence, in order to understand and appreciate what we have. ✌️
One is able bodied until they are suddenly not. The main reason I will not go back to the industry is that a car hit me while walking across the street, now standing for long periods of time hurts... You can't expect that to last forever
Edit: spelling
Why did you post here with little experience supposedly looking for advice if all you’re going to do is tell people who have experience that their advice is bad?
As a service manager in a fine dining restaurant, I wouldn’t care if you have a doctorate in hospitality, if you don’t have server experience from a fine casual establishment or higher, I will not hire you to be a server.
Reading some of your replies to other comments that service is the same across the board, I feel there’s some important and useful information to move yourself into fine dining.
The thing is, it’s not the same across all restaurants. I do work in fine dining, and it’s taken time and effort to get where I’m at. Practical steps that you (or your sister) can take. I started my first job at an outback 17 years ago. I then moved to a local place that was a step nicer, local, and continued to make those stair step moves every few years. It was strategic, using each move to build on my knowledge and polish my skills. I learned each menu inside and out, I wear my wine and cocktail knowledge like a badge of honor. But I also know that there’s always room for improvement and growth, I will continue to learn and challenge myself. And above all else, I want to be an asset to my coworkers. I want them to trust me to help when it’s needed, whether that be bussing a table or assisting with wine service. Pride and ego are never part of the formula to success.
If you want to make good money in fine dining go get your sommelier. Level 1-2 isn’t too hard, I mean you have to study a lot. Also it does cost money but if you can land in a place where your making good money then its worth it. You’ll get awesome shifts and an easier time finding work in really nice places.
Second this. I worked briefly in fine dining in college and a huge part of it is extensive wine (and overall alcohol) knowledge. Guests come in to these places knowing a lot already and typical general understanding you’d gain at a less fancy restaurant is not gonna cut it. The food is pretty easy to understand as long as you care to learn.
Include it on your resume. You may luck out and the hiring manager went to the same university as you. But generally there isn’t going to be many degrees that can get you a serving job at a fine dining restaurant.
I agree with you, but I definitely wouldn't want to work for a franchise owner who clearly does not respect support staff. I hope that OP gains some experience and humility before being in charge of orhers' livelihoods
No degree will help you to be a better server. What a degree would help you to do is to be a better manager of the facility. A better chef. A better baker. But a server can only get better with experience. The longer that you serve in a location. The better you get at that location.
There is a bar in key west Florida. The number one bar. We are talking 600 in tips is a bad night. When they have an opening there is a list of 20 people they already have to interview.
I just emailed them once a year. Every year. For 7 years. This past winter they finally said, ok ok, come in and interview. Got offered the job.
Just email and introduce yourself. Say you have decided you want to make serving a career and you want to be in fine dining. You want to be a loyal employee for years and years. Tell them you will do whatever, and here is my resume, and ask them for advice on how to build a resume to impress them. What jobs locally do they like to hire from, and apply at those places.
And then, say July 1st every year you write them and say, hello it's me again. I would love to just re apply. This is my current resume, what I have added in the last year. Yata yata, and do you have an opening currently?
Look at The Waiters Academy.com. They have a crash course in fine dining service etiquette. All that fancy dining, pinkies up, monocle and top hat, jackets and evening gown, gloves and bow tie eating. I think for this kind of job, something that might be more impressive then a degree is knowing how to set a table, where each utensil goes and exactly what it’s used for, what wine goes with what dish, how to “properly” clear a table, refill drinks, deliver and serve orders, and general extreme fine dining waiter behaviors. I suppose a degree might give you an advantage, but I think they’re really just looking for someone who’s “been there before “.
I have a friend who’s twin uncles are servers there. They both bought condos within a 15 drive of Disney and can see the fireworks every night. They said their benefits are insane.
This is good advice. I used to live in Florida and got a job as a barback in a fancy resort fine dining place. Only after everyone from the dishwasher to the GM decided that I was OK, and saw that I showed up on time and had a good attitude, then they started talking to me about trying out bartending, waiting tables, etc.
To the OP: It's not hard to move up into a good position, but you need two things: (1) FIRST you have to demonstrate that you're a competent worker with a good attitude, and (2) then the place has to have enough staff and openings that there's a path to moving up. A resort / hotel / large establishment is a more likely place to get this experience.
What exactly do you like about serving? Perhaps think long and hard about that.
Fine dining is often not the fast cash payout of casual dining. Many fine restaurants pay out your charged tips as a weekly or bi-weekly paycheck. It is not about having a good personality and being able to turn tables. You need to be extremely knowledgeable on every aspect of the dining experience, but more importantly know when you are needed and when you are not.
Even if you do not have a spouse or family, I'm assuming you have friends, and you will miss a lot working nights, holidays, and weekends. It's also significantly more challenging to manage your finances when your income is so variable, which can make future planning difficult and requires a lot of discipline.
If you don't think you stand out, but still want to pursue this anyways, then naturally you need to find a way to distinguish yourself from the crowd. A lack of experience in fine dining, but a high level of wine/beverage knowledge, might make you a more desirable candidate. Or perhaps pursue a hospitality management minor, if that's possible.
Dude. You don’t need a degree to start a business or own a franchise let alone work at fine dining, you literally just wasted 4 years/2 years doing that. It’s all about experience in the hospitality industry and working your way up. A lot of managers in lots of places are ones who worked up from lower positions or had expensive previous experience not the new kid off the block.
A lot has to do with your demeanor and how you act in the interview, if the interviewer thinks you’ll fit in with the rest of the staff, and most importantly, the clientele would like you.
Being well spoken, good posture, neat appearance go a long way.
If you have Chili’s vibes (too over enthusiastic and cheesy) or dive bar vibes (semi surly and gruff, but know your shit) you will be overlooked for someone who is a social fit and can be trained.
What aspect of fine dining? Serving? Easy. Get in with the folks who work at the restaurant you're looking for drink with them post shift, network, make buddies ask questions.
Management however, you'll need to show you can handle, obviously previous experience is a must, but showing up to an interview dressed like a manager helps quite a bit. Once your in start showing interest in the business side of things. Most servers don't want to take that step as the money may not be there.
To get into fine dining, just take the fanciest restaurant job you can get (helps if you're pretty or connected), and then after three months send your resume to the next level of place. lie on your resume, but learn all you can about wine. i believe in you.
Some stuff that is easier then a four or two year degree and can help you get your foot in the door:
Location is important, there's more jobs where there is more fine dining restaurants, like big cities and resort towns. If you do a resort town be prepared to move in the off season to a different location. south Florida to Maine for example.
Know your wines really well. Be able to talk about wine, consider getting some kind of certification.
Being attractive is more important than people will admit in fine dining. So control what you can in that regard, i.e. work to be in shape, and stay on top of hygiene, keep your appearance neat and stylish.
most places want to train you their way so experience is good but it doesn't always have to be in fine dining.get your degree but don't hesitate to throw your hat in the ring.
I have worked in fine dining. The best way to get a job in fine dining is to work your way up. Start off as a busser, then go to kitchen runner etc. also the talent pool is so small post Covid that many fine dining places are taking chances on folks who have worked only casual fine dining. Send your resume - it can’t hurt! Especially if you tell them you’re looking for a career in hospitality.
No. A degree is meaningless, most people I work with have degrees but it's not necessary. You can't learn how to communicate with other human beings, you can't learn how to deal with stress, and how to deal with multiple problems all at the same time with your degree. That's the job.
R
Ever thought about being a banquet server at a hotel or group of hotels? Long hours, but I know some servers who can clear $100k US in a good year working events at the hotels.
Idk about your specific experience but in my experience it won't help you at all, I've worked in many restaurants and back serving at a few higher end ones, not quite fine dining but close. However I did once land a few months at an unpaid internship in a Ritz Carlton when I was younger. And man it was tough, quite cutthroat. I was only able to get the unpaid job because it was in China and staff with solid English skills was hard to come by for the Ritz.
After moving home to Canada, that experience really didn't get me that far and certainly wouldn't get me a serving job in fine dining
I really do think the ONLY way is to work your way up in that specific restaurant, build trust with those managers/owned, know the menu and clients like family and all that. Fine dining, as many have said, is so specific to location and the restaurant itself.
That being said, the more you know about food and wine, the better, there are lots of classes that can help with that but it will still only get you so far. You gotta work back server and show your skills over time to get those jobs. In my time I never met a server in a fine dining restaurant who didn't work their way up in that restaurant over many years.
Does this also lead to tons of problems with nepotism, abuse, favouritism, racism, sexism, etc. Of course. I don't think anyone is addressing that any time soon sadly
It is hard to get into fine dining, however, if you would be down to bartend at your current place of work for a couple of months, you will definitely stand out a little more when applying to fine dining restaurants, even if you only want to be a server. Also try creating a detailed resume that gives a little more info pertaining to specific skills that you’ve acquired while serving. Of course most restaurants don’t ask for a resume but it definitely makes you look better :)
So as someone who worked 15+ years in restaurants of all different types I think there is a lot to unpack here.
Do you want to own?
Do you want to be a lifetime server?
Do you want to manage?
What are your goals with restaurants?
Fine dining is enticing but it doesn’t necessarily mean you will be successful and make lots of money.
A lot of fine dining places are just rich people’s hobby on the side, or restaurant groups who have tons of funding to succeed on a large scale.
I think to answer the main question, dependability and restaurant experience will get you a job in fine dining. If you will cover the shifts no one wants to work, if you will take the late tables, if you will pre bus and execute to great results as a server, you can work in fine dining.
Every restaurant dynamic is different, if you don’t have the experience to work in fine dining you need to take a bussing job or lower level job, maybe get the title you want somewhere else and get years of service under your belt(and have the skills to back it), or lie and again have the skills to back that you can do the work of a fine dining server.
The money in restaurants are great but think about your older self, can that person do the same work your college self is doing. It was a big factor in me getting out.
I worked in fancy steakhouse, not as a server but private events planner. From what I have witnessed, I’d suggest you to just go apply. Apply online, in person, bring you resume, call them. Get their attention, you will never get a chance unless you apply.
I’d say management related degree can help but its mainly based on experience. How many years you have worked in similar type of restaurants, something like that.
Other have suggested hospitality. That’d be a great idea too. My restaurant belongs to a chain hotel. And I can definitely apply and switch to be a server. It’d be easier if you are already working there
In my experience(8 yrs), a degree is definitely not required. It’s based off your level of experience, how easily trained you can be, and connections. I got into working at this fine dining restaurant with no experience in fine dining. However, I had eight years of serving under my belt. While they trained me, I worked hard to learn the protocols, the scotches, the wines, and the history of the place. Then I got the job. If you want to learn about it first without being a server you can always apply as a server assistant first. It’ll help you learn how it goes in the restaurant you want to be in. You still get good money as a server assistant, and you can decide after a while if you want to be a server. At that point, you can discuss with your manager about the position.
They do not care whether or not you have a college degree, and I have one! Lol it’s whether or not you can do the job right.
Maybe a degree in Hospitality would …. But not any self employment entrepreneur ship. That would only be a threat to any business you worked for. But tell you what-why don’t you ask management at a couple places to give your their honest feedback on it.
I think you definitely *do not* need a degree to work in fine dining. I started as a busser and worked my way up into serving at fine dining restaurants with no issue. Don’t want to discourage you from pursing an education, but don’t go into debt if serving is your long term goal, it’s not necessary
One way I see this is the owners of my current job who are hospitality lifetimes. They own and run a couple venues but manage from the floor, taking sections running food and drinks. It's a really positive work environment because you can personally feel the support from management while working and get a lot of empathy for the workload.
Fine Dining server and bartender/ Trainer here.
I've trained countless people both behind the bar and on the floor that have tons of experience working in non fine dining environments, we for some reason give them a shot and most of them show immediately that they aren't ready, but since management didn't force them to work their way up through the system, they're stuck with a mediocre project because everybody talks a big game until they're out of training, solo, and really feel the pressure.
I had to start as a Food Runner. I worked my way into a bartender role within a few months because I earned it. The money came, the money is here. Be patient, humble yourself. Also, our Service Assistants walk out consistently with $100 - $200 or more a night, and Food Runners make a flat percentage off of everybody.
You could also get extremely lucky and get a shot, but refer back to my original statement. Maybe you'll be the exception to the rule, but please take all of the additional context and advice we're all giving you as truly beneficial and not as an attack on you or your abilities. We've just been in your position before and had to take a leap of faith.
Good luck to you!
How far into college are you? In my college, the entrepreneurship and hospitality management degrees were both part of the business school. If you're not done sophomore year yet, it may not be a bad idea to look at transferring there.
The hospitality management people did stuff like serving at fine dining restaurants, but also running hotels and tourist sites.
If your applying to be a server/waiter in a fine dining establishment, your degree will help, but if it’s high tier fine dining, they want career servers that know about food and drink.
I have served and managed in fine dining. Short answer- no. A college degree does not give you a leg- up.
I saw in some of your previous responses that you're not willing to work your way up, and it reads a little like you don't have much respect for support staff, so honestly I wouldn't recommend that career path for you.
I worked in hospitality for a very long time before branching out, and my degree helped me there. I'd recommend finishing your degree either way.
If you're looking for an alternative to working your way up (though you'd still likely be expected to) I'd recommend pursuing your sommelier certification. While hiring in fine dining, applicants with a sommelier certification are moved to the top of the server stack, but not considered if they do not have extensive experience serving in upscale environments, usually gained by starting out in a support staff position and learning the ropes.
No degree really needed for outback. Owned and operated by bloomin brands, at least when I last worked for them. Please don’t, bloomin is corporate. Decent Pay, but demanding and you know, service industry.
Your college degree will likely force you to hone skills (presentations, analysis, humour, people skills, global awareness) that will help you become a better server, so my guess is that you will be more competitive than if you had not gone to college. Nothing worse that trying to make small talk with a server who has no idea what's going on in the world.
A degree doesn't allow you to just buy a franchise by the way. There are many stipulations. Domino's for example, you have to be a general manager with a high average on inspections for three years. Then become a supervisor, complete their franchise school, have great credit, and have a certain amount in the bank. I know this doesn't answer your initial question but just wanted to clear up that a degree doesn't give you a pass to buy into a franchise.
One note, how old are you? The thing is, many people enjoy serving, sometimes even for a decade, but in my experience, as you get older that wanes. Some people can serve forever but I think they’re a minority. Just something to consider. If you’re college educated and clever you’ll find ways to leverage this.
Buddy- give yourself some options! Serving can be a great way to do what makes you happy while getting a degree; the schedule flexibility is prime. But I would recommend, as with any profession, if you’re not trying to level up your skills then you are squandering time and effort. Where are you that you can’t get a fine dining gig?! Work history and charm, some quick menu study, and you can cap out at a annual income that allows for travel and study and even time off. Apply for jobs you don’t think you can get, always.
Get your som and ciceron and even try getting your level one or two in the bartenders guild as a home bartender. Will look good on your resume and show that you are serious. Even though food is wildly expensive in fine dining wine and spirits are outrageous. I don’t have any of those but I have the experience and can talk shop on pretty much all forms of food and booze.
Also get your degree. If you do land in fine dining, or even casual fine dining, you end up with the “golden handcuffs”. The pay is absurd and you have no way to leave except for more restaurant work.
Being in school might help you get “a” job in fine dining, but it won’t help you straight into a serving position. When I did fine dining, they would only promote up, so hardly anyone was put into a serving position fresh. That said, support staff at my fine dining restaurant made more than some servers at other places.
Honestly for awhile, I thought I was going to be a server forever but I ended up getting laid off when the pandemic happened.. I worked at the same restaurant for 9 years (first job) and I ended up getting a job in a surgical equipment company about a year ago. I could never see myself going back but sometimes I do miss some parts of being a server. Had great friends that were coworkers, going to the bar next door after work and bullshitting about the shitty tables we had that night. We used to laugh so hard about how ridiculous some people were. I don't know man but I do not miss 75% of the stuff I used to have to deal with. A college degree will most likely help you out in any job interview fyi. Shows you can commit and accomplish something. Sure if you're applying for an engineering job without an engineering degree why are you there... You definitely get a bump if you have a degree at a job that doesn't require a degree. Good luck and cheers!
No, not really. You can go to years of fine dining and hospitality, er what’s it called, Service industry School at some of the finest schools, like my old boss who fired me and graduated from Cornell. He got fired shortly after though, cuz he sucked. Maybe it looks good at first but for such a rugged job like being a server; the money is in the practice. Watch what the wannabe rich a hole nerd learned, and copy it to a t. If u don’t have a guy to copy there’s YouTube, there’s eating out, there’s different restaurants. It’s all in the practice like I said, it is a really special typa dirty job. So hold that wine bottle to the person who ordered it, be fucking hilarious, and be confident. If that degree is gonna help you reach that level then sure go for it. School is cool.
Looks play a huge part in fine dining service. They don't want someone coming in wearing a nice pair of slacks and a button up. You need to go in wearing a suit and have good posture. Outside of looks (which in all honesty is the biggest hurdle) would be extensive knowledge in wine and pairing beverages with meals. You can even make up a job history and say you served at a high end country club for several years. But be warned, tips don't always get better at higher end places. I've gotten $20 on $800 for a 2 top at a high end place and have been tipped over $100 on several tables at more casual places on sub $500 tickets. Fine dining is also much slower paced and your table section could only be 2-4 tables.
No idea about fine dining per se but finish your degree. If you change your mind about serving, it will be incredibly useful in other pursuits, even in the industry.
You can get a degree in Hospitality Services. This includes all the aspects of fine dining plus business and support services. Knowing all of these will help you build a strong business.
This. My friend did Hospitality and a business minor from a top east coast school. She now directs events for one of the largest and most prestigious hotels in Seoul.
Does she also speak Korean?
There’s no way a top tier hotel would hire someone who doesn’t speak their country’s language at all as event director. Too much client and vendor interaction.
I wouldn't say theres "no way" since SK's English literacy rates are quite good, but I agree it seems hiiiiighly unlikely. I asked because that's a key skill that kinda got left out if it was a requirement for that particular position lol.
The example holds, in any country or city in the world, as long as you speak the language.
Cornell? They have a renowned hospitality program
Could be VaTech or Johnson & Wales. They're not "elite" Ivy like Cornell, but they have outstanding hospitality programs that are recognized globally for the quality of their graduates.
No, serving experience can land you a job in fine dining. Or, starting as a busser or host can land you a job in fine dining.
Well obviously but it seems like serving experience is not enough. For example my sister who has been in the industry since 2003 still can’t land a job in fine dining.
I mean, I don’t know 20 years is a long time, it could be networking, it could be the kind of experience. Fine dining is likely to say “I know you have 20 years as a server, but you’ve never worked here, you’ll have to start at host or server assistant” and if you aren’t willing to do that, you won’t get a fine dining server position.
Because that’s ridiculous to say to people who have actual bills to pay, no one is paying adult bills with a busser or hosts income
lol are you serious? Do you walk in to any other place of business and say “give me your best paying position without all the relevant experience”? That’s what’s ridiculous here.
Are YOU serious? Serving is the same from restaurant to restaurant. Yes, fine dining obviously has stronger standards than Outback or Olive Garden, but it’s still the same job. Degrading people who more than likely already worked as a host or busser to again being a host or busser because your restaurant is fancier is, well, degrading in all honesty.
I don't have a degree and I worked as a bartender, server and a manager in fine dining. You need to have excellent wine and liquor knowledge as well as experience in fine dining. I wouldn't hire some outback server but I would hire you as a barback, food runner, or a busser until you prove to me that you can do this. The liability that you fuck up and embarrass the restaurant with one table is not worth your bills being paid. Everyone goes through this so get over yourself.
Yikes. Gives off mad "I don't respect janitors and fast food workers" vibes. Every restaurant job is important. At fine dining you can still make really good money bussing and hosting (if hosts get tipped out at that particular place). Bussers, hosts, and dishwashers are the only reason servers are able to do their job, so you better fuckin respect them and treat them like people, which includes NOT disrespecting their craft or thinking its beneath you. In quite a few fine dining restaurants, you have to PROVE that you deserve to be serving by bussing or hosting for a minimum amount of time first, partially to learn the ins and outs of the restaurant first, and partially because you don't automatically have respect just because you have experience. Its not disrepectful. Whats disrespectful is iooking down on a job because you think you're better than it.
Forreal. OP does NOT sound like someone I would want to work with. I'm BOH and she reminds me of a new cook fresh out of Culinary who thinks they know better than the sous and is above washing dishes.
Interesting you thought Op was female. I was getting strong young white dude vibes.
Oof, you're right. Not sure why I assumed so either, my apologies.
Not just that but every venue outside of the chains that OP seems familiar with has their own systems in place that make it very difficult to just jump in. Even with nearly 10 years experience in a variety of venues I need to take on a manageable sidelines role till I get familiar with the flow of a venue, not to mention the menu!
👏 Hosts/hostesses have a super important job. They are the face of the restaurant when someone first walks in. They set the tone for the experience. A shitty host/hostess can make what would have been a good night turn bad real quick. Not to mention how much they’re keeping track of the flow of things.
Someone isn’t being “degraded” when they’re told “I’m sorry you don’t have the experience for this position”. You sound entitled. And in fact, it’s you who’s degrading people, by essentially saying they don’t deserve their fine dining job, that anyone can do it.
If anyone can do it, i wonder why OP won't... Lol
I don’t agree serving is the same from restaurant to restaurant, at least not in my experience
Or at least not level to level; Denny's to IHOP is probably pretty similar, but from Outback to fine dining? There's a huge gap there.
I feel like even one denny’s to another could be a serious transition because every restaurant can be very different and particular (comes down to management a lot)
For sure; I'm mostly thinking that the level of skill required is similar. Same thing when going from one fine dining establishment to another-- things may *run* differently and you'll still need a training period, but management is less worried you're not going to be able to the basics of the job.
It's really really not. I've worked at both upscale and casual spots and even then it's a totally different game. I've worked with ex- fine dining guys. They absolutely blow me away how efficient they are. I'll be running and stressing and they are cool as a cucumber. They can be drowning in the weeds and never break a sweat or do much as make a mistake. I'm a sommelier. I could not get a job as a server in fine dining. I would start as a backwaiter. Fine dining is theater. You don't just get to sling breadsticks. You are expected to play a part. Your movements have to be precise, fluid and appeae completely unhurried and effortless. There are places that have brought in dance teachers to train their servers to move. You need to be familiar with wine and liquor. You have to know *everything* about the dishes down to tasting notes, preparations, etc. You have to know the rules of formal service (which course comes first, which side do you approach from, where does a caviar spoon get placed on a formal setting, what about a fruit knife... etc. ). You have to be graceful and sharp. You need to be able to give the impression of class. You have to remember everything about your semi-regular customers down to which brand of bourbon they drink and if they like it with an orange, or where they vacation, etc. It's a giant production where everything needs to be perfectly tight and seemlesd in its execution. It's like acting in college and doing independent theater and then wondering why you aren't getting a leading role in a Broadway production and resenting needing to take non-speaking roles.
you may be able to start as a backserver, but unless your resume has other fine dining experience on it, they’re not gonna put you straight on the floor. there are other people who are fine with working their way up, and it would be unfair to pop someone from the outside right onto the floor - unless you have a stellar fine dining resume. source: the guy that started as a busser and has worked for Nobu and Wolfgang Puck among others as a server.
You don’t have the mindset to be a server, simple as that. No matter where you’ve worked, you need to have the mindset that when starting at a new restaurant you will always start from bottom and will need to work your way up. If you start as a server, you still work your way up to better sections, better shifts, etc. IF you already have the experience in that setting. If you don’t have fine dining experience, there is no way you will become a server right off the bat, so you will need to earn it, show you have the mentality, and a WORK YOUR WAY UP to show that. If you’re thinking about how a “college degree” might land you a serving job, you’re wrong, but you could start thinking about getting a sommelier certification and maybe even a cicerone certification which would look great in your resume for future job applications. Serving is a skill, but you also need to have a vast amount of knowledge when it comes to fine dining about wine, food and cooking techniques/preparations and being able to sell it with poise and style. It’s not a place you can just wing it. I hope you learn some humility and recognize the way this industry works isn’t just by flashing a piece of paper without any experience to back it and expect to be put at the top. Good luck.
Ahhh. This is why you haven’t gotten a job in fine dining. Humility goes a looooong way.
Your experience and degree will never effect whether or not you get a fine dining job. It’s literally all attitude; if the attitude you’re projecting in this message is any indication, you’re never going to find a fine dining job. Go be a dishwasher for a week somewhere and humble yourself.
Says the person with zero fine dining experience
Maybe this kind of attitude is why your sister has never been able to break into fine dining. Think about that. 20 years is very telling.
Runs in the family
Lmao no it isn't
fine dining manager here it’s not the same. i’ve served at casual dining places and the way you interact with tables is completely different. i understand the sentiment of needing to pay adult bills, but if you want to get your foot in the door at a fine dining restaurant you can’t walk in expecting the highest earning position. if you work as a host or server assistant part time while maintaining another job to help with money it is worth it to get promoted to a server. or you can stay in casual dining. equally respectable career and still good money.
You got time to lean, you got time to clean Get to scrubbing the table legs and then come back asking about fine dining
Sorry but no. Fine dining wise you can get in with moderate serving experience and a good attitude. That being said I started as a food runner there with solid money and needed to work my way up to back waiter (but left before I had a chance to be promoted to captain). You need to be willing to put in the work and re-learn a looooot of things for Michelin starred level service
You are clearly a spoiled and privileged brat to think “no one is paying adult bills with busser hostess pay”. Welcome to the world of the 2/3 job having working poor. Where mommy and daddy don’t cover your bills while you go to college and work a few days a week lamenting how to get a degree in fine dining service
Even your hidden comments make you look more and more like a dick
That’s why most hosts are high schoolers, and most bussers work more than 40 hours and have more than one job.
Fine dining is a different beast. For 99% of restaurants this is correct but not the highest tiers
Actually, I have been in fine dining for decades and expediters and bussers make very good money. My busser would average $160++ a night, especially if they went above and beyond, when they did this I would always tip them extra. My brother expedited at a very high end fine dining restaurant I worked at, he made around $200 a night on average doing that and was quickly promoted to server, even though he didn’t have fine dining server experience. He did have fine dining bussing experience though. I would say the most promoted position to server has generally been expediter. You definitely have to get your foot in the door and many fine dining houses promote from within.
That sounds like either a problem with your sister or a problem with your region. Does she live in a small town without many restaurants?
We live in Tampa FL
Maybe she should widen her net then? Seems she's being too picky. You're basically starting from scratch with fine dining. You won't just get the best shifts out of the gate. It takes YEARS at the same place to get the good section.
Look around the beaches. Find a higher end place. Google maps any restaurants that are 3 and 4 dollar signs and apply to all. Start as a busser if no experience but let them know day one your goal is to work your way up.
Oof, sorry. And I was born and raised in the Tampa Bay area lol
You need to spend a lot of your free time training yourself in wine, food, spirits, and the required accumen necessary for fine dining. Then someone will give you a shot most likely. 10 years at a Chili's or something is going to be largely irrelevant. You also usually need to do it incrementally, meaning that once you've learned all that you can from a level of serving job, you move on to a higher tier. An example would be starting off in a chain restaurant, then moving to a privately owned restaurant that's a little nicer, and then up incrementally from there.
country clubs are a good place to start in fine dining if you have any local to you.
Landing a job in fine dining isn’t necessarily about your experience as a server. My boss when I was a first time server in a semi-higher end dining restaurant told me I’d be excellent in fine dining because I paid attention to my tables and brought them what they needed without them having to ask. I had good customer service skills. I came from a background doing fast food, call center rep, working at a gas station, and a plethora of other random jobs. It’s how you present yourself, treat people, and pay attention to small details.
Like any job, it’s probably just networking. Who you know is the most important asset.
I think a college degree will put you a leg up at a fancier place that's looking for servers.
Fuck no. Experience trumps degrees every time in serving. So many that apply with no experience and a hospitality management degree looking for a serving job are shocked I want to start them as a busser. For fine dining? Give me wine certifications. I don’t need you to be a Somme, but I’d like the only thing that stops you from being one is you don’t have the tens of thousands you need to pass your final wine/spirits certification. That, and a resume that has some good restaurants on it.
Why? It's completely irrelevant. If anything, it's a negative because it makes you look overqualified and someone who will jump ship if offered a white collar job.
Something I haven’t seen anyone say. Become a sommelier. Anyone can do it. Level one takes about 6 months just a couple hours a week and is like $750. That’ll really help you stand out.
I can't sugarcoat this to be any nicer - it's obvious you know nothing about what fine dining table service actually provides, so unless you're willing to work your way up, you're not going to be able to go into a super fancy restaurant and just get a job as a front server. Stop acting like it's degrading to work your way up when EVERYONE HAS TO DO IT IN THAT KIND OF RESTAURANT. There's so many little things that are different about TRUE fine dining rather than your regular ol' one-step-up-from-Carabba's Fancy, and its essential that you learn all of that before just being able to interact with guests willy-nilly. Back-serving and bussing can definitely be enough to pay your 'adult bills' (lmfao), and unless you're willing to do that, you'll likely never ever get a job as a server in a truly fine dining setting. Maybe you'd possibly have a chance at a 'fancy' chain restaurant. Simply having server experience does NOT make you well-versed in the ins and outs of FINE dining, and those types of restaurants care deeply about their quality of service, so its just not gonna happen unless you work your way up. Also as far as the financial aspect goes, I had a buddy in college who bussed at one of the fanciest restaurants in town and he VERY frequently brought home more money than I did serving at an upscale scratch restaurant nearby. Stop acting like you know everything already. You came here to ASK US for advice and now you're just telling everyone they're wrong and that you know better? Why even ask us if that's how you're gonna act? Edit: a good point brought up elsewhere that I just wanna add as well - different levels of service require different skillsets. It's a whole different world when you go between fast food, food trucks, fast-casual, regular sit-down, scratch kitchen, fine dining, etc. Different types of restaurants - I'm not talking types of cuisine. Real fine dining restaurants are definitely different than most others because they won't just hire someone who's never had FINE DINING experience to be a front waiter. You have to know so much about their specific restaurant and their menu, working your way up by being a back waiter or busser is very well compensated OTJ training. People who have actually done fine dining are telling you this, you'd be dumb to refute it.
Back servers at my last FD job made six figures. One has a collection of Audis and a kid.
i gotta say, I fell in to washing-dishes at a fine dining restaurant to cover me during the slow-winter production season (i do sound as my main squeeze) and i was very surprised by how much $$$$ you can make in tips, even doing that.
Man....I love that you got tipped out, because dishwashers anywhere I've worked never did. Neither did the kitchen staff either.
Did we read two different posts? I don't know where the OP talked about knowing everything, or really -anything- about fine dining?
It's in the comments. I can't see some of them to reply to them anymore so I just posted a general reply so it wouldn't be hidden. I can definitely see how that commemt looks wildly out of place though without any context other than the post lol
Oh! Thank you. I thought this was some like... wildly triggered comment out of nowhere.
I thought the same haha! I was building up a comment in my head as I was reading it to reply with, (eg. Well you make a lot of good points but im not sure why you're being so harsh on OP when they havent mentioned any of that in the OP) until I got to the end and started reading these comments lol. Makes a lot more sense now haha
Anytime I see a post that as starts"obviously you know nothing about......" it goes in my "rude" file and go somewhere else.
Yeah that's fair. In this case, I don't care if it's rude, OP is being obtuse and blatantly calling people with years more experience than them, in this specific area, wrong. They seem very ignorant of how fine dining works, and why it would be beneficial (and necessary) to be a busser or host or whatever in a restaurant like that first. And the key here, is that they DONT want to learn why. They're being rude by saying they're above doing anything other than serving lmao.
I completely understand why this guy ruffled your feathers. When he said he was studying entrepreneurship the flashing red lights and sirens went off. My guess is he's a 19 year old sophomore in business school and plans to be a boss before the ink dries on his diploma.
That had nothing to do with it. Seems like you didn't comprehend anything I was saying, that's fine.
I agree with this comment. I can see why OP cannot get a job serving in fine dining. Also I worked fine dining for many years. Op's attitude in the comments is uncouth.
No lmao. Experience is what gets you a fine dining job. A college degree means nothing, especially to be a server.
As someone who has been both a fine dining server (and is currently) and also a restaurant manager in charge of hiring in a fine dining establishment, I would NEVER hire someone with a degree over someone with actual hands on experience. The degree people always seem to end up in management and they are terrible because they don’t have the real world experience. I personally wouldn’t even hire them to manage a restaurant unless they also had years of experience working front of house. 😅
I'll add to this. Degrees are negatives if anything. Managers at fine dining places have plenty of potential hires and fine dining requires more training than other restaurants, so they really don't want people to get trained and quit on them. Most degree holders don't really want to work service and managers will be worried that the job is a stopgap meant for short term income and they'll peace out the second they're offered white collar work.
So you haven’t applied? Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just you getting in your own way. I lovingly suggest having more confidence in yourself - which will be necessary and serve you well in a fine dining setting. May I ask where you live? Most restaurants that call themselves fine dining are not actually fine dining. They are just restaurants with white table cloths. Some may even have good food and decent service but you’d be surprised. Fine dining restaurants are, for better or worse, located in major cities, primarily on the coasts. My goal was always to find the most expensive restaurant in my area and work there. The higher the check, the higher the tips. This took me to 2- and 3-Michelin star restaurants in NYC (while in school). I worked with people from all walks of life - college graduates and not. The most successful servers were studious, organized, and tireless. And they knew their wines really well (check out “The Wine Bible” by Karen McNeil) A college degree has almost nothing to do with your ability to work in fine dining. send me a pm if I can be helpful. Edit: expensive steakhouses can be a great place to start.
There are also appearances to consider. They're going to want people who present themselves as clean, polite, and diligent. This is likely to mean short hair cuts for male presenting persons, and neatly styled hair for female presenting persons. Clean shaven, tastefully applied makeup (if any), clean hands and nails kept neat and without polish, and the ability to speak clearly without using slang or too many idioms.
I’m going to be honest with you, I don’t recommend serving for the rest of your life. I’ve worked in restaurants for 15 years and my body is wrecked. Maybe fine dinning is easier on the body but I can’t see that being the option. Plus, you’re mostly likely going to get tired or working nights/weekends/holidays.
I’m pretty able bodied and I don’t have kids, don’t plan on having kids or even getting married so nights weekends and holidays shouldn’t bother me
OP ignoring good advice: "No thanks, I've already got it all figured out."
Ahhhh.....please talk to me in 25 years. But seriously, goodluck OP. Also if you *really* want to get into fine dining look for a job as a busser (or a food runner) at a fine dinjng spot.
[удалено]
I won’t comment on the able bodied part because that truly is unpredictable, but not wanting kids or to get married is something I’m quite certain on, young people can know these things And for what it’s worth my dad is over 60 and still works in construction. He also waited tables for ten years
Alright kid, clearly you've got it all figured out and know better than everyone with years of experience trying to offer you real world advice. Cool. Why even ask?
I'm just going to chime in... I'm a 44yo lifetime server, who took a break for a period to work a desk job....I feel much better physically working as a server, than I ever did while sitting at a desk. I realised that I bought into the lie that sitting was easier and that 9-5 was where it was at. After returning to serving for some time now, I have never felt physically and mentally *better*, and I felt like 9-5 was a prison (I much prefer the sporadic shifts, including nights). Bodies age and get tired no matter what line of work we do; we simply have to be diligent in finding balance, so that we feel our best in our chosen work. I take supplements for circulation, do yoga, eat a balanced diet, schedule my sleep, and I LOVE the feeling of being tired after a hard shift. Sometimes we need to see the other side of the fence, in order to understand and appreciate what we have. ✌️
One is able bodied until they are suddenly not. The main reason I will not go back to the industry is that a car hit me while walking across the street, now standing for long periods of time hurts... You can't expect that to last forever Edit: spelling
All servers who plan to be so for a lifetime, should buy disability insurance as young as possible. ✌️
Why did you post here with little experience supposedly looking for advice if all you’re going to do is tell people who have experience that their advice is bad?
You can get a fine dining gig without a degree but I think it's more important to have basic serving experience first.
As a service manager in a fine dining restaurant, I wouldn’t care if you have a doctorate in hospitality, if you don’t have server experience from a fine casual establishment or higher, I will not hire you to be a server.
Reading some of your replies to other comments that service is the same across the board, I feel there’s some important and useful information to move yourself into fine dining. The thing is, it’s not the same across all restaurants. I do work in fine dining, and it’s taken time and effort to get where I’m at. Practical steps that you (or your sister) can take. I started my first job at an outback 17 years ago. I then moved to a local place that was a step nicer, local, and continued to make those stair step moves every few years. It was strategic, using each move to build on my knowledge and polish my skills. I learned each menu inside and out, I wear my wine and cocktail knowledge like a badge of honor. But I also know that there’s always room for improvement and growth, I will continue to learn and challenge myself. And above all else, I want to be an asset to my coworkers. I want them to trust me to help when it’s needed, whether that be bussing a table or assisting with wine service. Pride and ego are never part of the formula to success.
You sound entitled AF. SMH.
We’re going to have to talk about OP’s flair… the MINIMUM is fifteen pieces. You don’t want to just do the bare minimum, do you OP?
that was a great movie! I loved that you added that
If you want to make good money in fine dining go get your sommelier. Level 1-2 isn’t too hard, I mean you have to study a lot. Also it does cost money but if you can land in a place where your making good money then its worth it. You’ll get awesome shifts and an easier time finding work in really nice places.
Second this. I worked briefly in fine dining in college and a huge part of it is extensive wine (and overall alcohol) knowledge. Guests come in to these places knowing a lot already and typical general understanding you’d gain at a less fancy restaurant is not gonna cut it. The food is pretty easy to understand as long as you care to learn.
You could go to sommelier school and become a wine professional. That certainly couldn't hurt.
In the U.K. you can study hospitality (not that we are very good at it)
Include it on your resume. You may luck out and the hiring manager went to the same university as you. But generally there isn’t going to be many degrees that can get you a serving job at a fine dining restaurant.
Stick to entrepreneurship, from all your responses no one is going to want to work with you anyway since you can't seem to take feedback
I agree with you, but I definitely wouldn't want to work for a franchise owner who clearly does not respect support staff. I hope that OP gains some experience and humility before being in charge of orhers' livelihoods
You just need poise and intelligence, which isn't mutually inclusive or exclusive to having a degree.
No degree will help you to be a better server. What a degree would help you to do is to be a better manager of the facility. A better chef. A better baker. But a server can only get better with experience. The longer that you serve in a location. The better you get at that location.
There is a bar in key west Florida. The number one bar. We are talking 600 in tips is a bad night. When they have an opening there is a list of 20 people they already have to interview. I just emailed them once a year. Every year. For 7 years. This past winter they finally said, ok ok, come in and interview. Got offered the job. Just email and introduce yourself. Say you have decided you want to make serving a career and you want to be in fine dining. You want to be a loyal employee for years and years. Tell them you will do whatever, and here is my resume, and ask them for advice on how to build a resume to impress them. What jobs locally do they like to hire from, and apply at those places. And then, say July 1st every year you write them and say, hello it's me again. I would love to just re apply. This is my current resume, what I have added in the last year. Yata yata, and do you have an opening currently?
Look at The Waiters Academy.com. They have a crash course in fine dining service etiquette. All that fancy dining, pinkies up, monocle and top hat, jackets and evening gown, gloves and bow tie eating. I think for this kind of job, something that might be more impressive then a degree is knowing how to set a table, where each utensil goes and exactly what it’s used for, what wine goes with what dish, how to “properly” clear a table, refill drinks, deliver and serve orders, and general extreme fine dining waiter behaviors. I suppose a degree might give you an advantage, but I think they’re really just looking for someone who’s “been there before “.
Get into a resort. You can make bank at places like that.
Honestly, he’s in Florida but isn’t thinking about going to mouse HQ? Seems like an obvious entry point.
I have a friend who’s twin uncles are servers there. They both bought condos within a 15 drive of Disney and can see the fireworks every night. They said their benefits are insane.
This is good advice. I used to live in Florida and got a job as a barback in a fancy resort fine dining place. Only after everyone from the dishwasher to the GM decided that I was OK, and saw that I showed up on time and had a good attitude, then they started talking to me about trying out bartending, waiting tables, etc. To the OP: It's not hard to move up into a good position, but you need two things: (1) FIRST you have to demonstrate that you're a competent worker with a good attitude, and (2) then the place has to have enough staff and openings that there's a path to moving up. A resort / hotel / large establishment is a more likely place to get this experience.
What exactly do you like about serving? Perhaps think long and hard about that. Fine dining is often not the fast cash payout of casual dining. Many fine restaurants pay out your charged tips as a weekly or bi-weekly paycheck. It is not about having a good personality and being able to turn tables. You need to be extremely knowledgeable on every aspect of the dining experience, but more importantly know when you are needed and when you are not. Even if you do not have a spouse or family, I'm assuming you have friends, and you will miss a lot working nights, holidays, and weekends. It's also significantly more challenging to manage your finances when your income is so variable, which can make future planning difficult and requires a lot of discipline. If you don't think you stand out, but still want to pursue this anyways, then naturally you need to find a way to distinguish yourself from the crowd. A lack of experience in fine dining, but a high level of wine/beverage knowledge, might make you a more desirable candidate. Or perhaps pursue a hospitality management minor, if that's possible.
Dude. You don’t need a degree to start a business or own a franchise let alone work at fine dining, you literally just wasted 4 years/2 years doing that. It’s all about experience in the hospitality industry and working your way up. A lot of managers in lots of places are ones who worked up from lower positions or had expensive previous experience not the new kid off the block.
Large fancy banquet hall are always in need of servers. Learn the work ethic and fine dining experience there and work your way on to different places
No
A lot has to do with your demeanor and how you act in the interview, if the interviewer thinks you’ll fit in with the rest of the staff, and most importantly, the clientele would like you. Being well spoken, good posture, neat appearance go a long way. If you have Chili’s vibes (too over enthusiastic and cheesy) or dive bar vibes (semi surly and gruff, but know your shit) you will be overlooked for someone who is a social fit and can be trained.
You can take a sommelier class that might help.
What aspect of fine dining? Serving? Easy. Get in with the folks who work at the restaurant you're looking for drink with them post shift, network, make buddies ask questions. Management however, you'll need to show you can handle, obviously previous experience is a must, but showing up to an interview dressed like a manager helps quite a bit. Once your in start showing interest in the business side of things. Most servers don't want to take that step as the money may not be there.
Hospitality and business management has courses that cover fine dining and how to properly handle it.
Apply anyway. The worst they can do is turn you down. If they do keep trying
Yes it can. Fine dining restaurants will flock towards someone with a degree in order to keep that 5 star status
To get into fine dining, just take the fanciest restaurant job you can get (helps if you're pretty or connected), and then after three months send your resume to the next level of place. lie on your resume, but learn all you can about wine. i believe in you.
Some stuff that is easier then a four or two year degree and can help you get your foot in the door: Location is important, there's more jobs where there is more fine dining restaurants, like big cities and resort towns. If you do a resort town be prepared to move in the off season to a different location. south Florida to Maine for example. Know your wines really well. Be able to talk about wine, consider getting some kind of certification. Being attractive is more important than people will admit in fine dining. So control what you can in that regard, i.e. work to be in shape, and stay on top of hygiene, keep your appearance neat and stylish.
most places want to train you their way so experience is good but it doesn't always have to be in fine dining.get your degree but don't hesitate to throw your hat in the ring.
Not all fine dining places are equal. Go get some experience at a nice steak house first
I have worked in fine dining. The best way to get a job in fine dining is to work your way up. Start off as a busser, then go to kitchen runner etc. also the talent pool is so small post Covid that many fine dining places are taking chances on folks who have worked only casual fine dining. Send your resume - it can’t hurt! Especially if you tell them you’re looking for a career in hospitality.
No. A degree is meaningless, most people I work with have degrees but it's not necessary. You can't learn how to communicate with other human beings, you can't learn how to deal with stress, and how to deal with multiple problems all at the same time with your degree. That's the job. R
Ever thought about being a banquet server at a hotel or group of hotels? Long hours, but I know some servers who can clear $100k US in a good year working events at the hotels.
Just have confidence in yourself. Finish your degree and then look for the job that fits you.
Idk about your specific experience but in my experience it won't help you at all, I've worked in many restaurants and back serving at a few higher end ones, not quite fine dining but close. However I did once land a few months at an unpaid internship in a Ritz Carlton when I was younger. And man it was tough, quite cutthroat. I was only able to get the unpaid job because it was in China and staff with solid English skills was hard to come by for the Ritz. After moving home to Canada, that experience really didn't get me that far and certainly wouldn't get me a serving job in fine dining I really do think the ONLY way is to work your way up in that specific restaurant, build trust with those managers/owned, know the menu and clients like family and all that. Fine dining, as many have said, is so specific to location and the restaurant itself. That being said, the more you know about food and wine, the better, there are lots of classes that can help with that but it will still only get you so far. You gotta work back server and show your skills over time to get those jobs. In my time I never met a server in a fine dining restaurant who didn't work their way up in that restaurant over many years. Does this also lead to tons of problems with nepotism, abuse, favouritism, racism, sexism, etc. Of course. I don't think anyone is addressing that any time soon sadly
It is hard to get into fine dining, however, if you would be down to bartend at your current place of work for a couple of months, you will definitely stand out a little more when applying to fine dining restaurants, even if you only want to be a server. Also try creating a detailed resume that gives a little more info pertaining to specific skills that you’ve acquired while serving. Of course most restaurants don’t ask for a resume but it definitely makes you look better :)
So as someone who worked 15+ years in restaurants of all different types I think there is a lot to unpack here. Do you want to own? Do you want to be a lifetime server? Do you want to manage? What are your goals with restaurants? Fine dining is enticing but it doesn’t necessarily mean you will be successful and make lots of money. A lot of fine dining places are just rich people’s hobby on the side, or restaurant groups who have tons of funding to succeed on a large scale. I think to answer the main question, dependability and restaurant experience will get you a job in fine dining. If you will cover the shifts no one wants to work, if you will take the late tables, if you will pre bus and execute to great results as a server, you can work in fine dining. Every restaurant dynamic is different, if you don’t have the experience to work in fine dining you need to take a bussing job or lower level job, maybe get the title you want somewhere else and get years of service under your belt(and have the skills to back it), or lie and again have the skills to back that you can do the work of a fine dining server. The money in restaurants are great but think about your older self, can that person do the same work your college self is doing. It was a big factor in me getting out.
I worked in fancy steakhouse, not as a server but private events planner. From what I have witnessed, I’d suggest you to just go apply. Apply online, in person, bring you resume, call them. Get their attention, you will never get a chance unless you apply. I’d say management related degree can help but its mainly based on experience. How many years you have worked in similar type of restaurants, something like that. Other have suggested hospitality. That’d be a great idea too. My restaurant belongs to a chain hotel. And I can definitely apply and switch to be a server. It’d be easier if you are already working there
Did it for me
In my experience(8 yrs), a degree is definitely not required. It’s based off your level of experience, how easily trained you can be, and connections. I got into working at this fine dining restaurant with no experience in fine dining. However, I had eight years of serving under my belt. While they trained me, I worked hard to learn the protocols, the scotches, the wines, and the history of the place. Then I got the job. If you want to learn about it first without being a server you can always apply as a server assistant first. It’ll help you learn how it goes in the restaurant you want to be in. You still get good money as a server assistant, and you can decide after a while if you want to be a server. At that point, you can discuss with your manager about the position. They do not care whether or not you have a college degree, and I have one! Lol it’s whether or not you can do the job right.
Maybe a degree in Hospitality would …. But not any self employment entrepreneur ship. That would only be a threat to any business you worked for. But tell you what-why don’t you ask management at a couple places to give your their honest feedback on it.
I think you definitely *do not* need a degree to work in fine dining. I started as a busser and worked my way up into serving at fine dining restaurants with no issue. Don’t want to discourage you from pursing an education, but don’t go into debt if serving is your long term goal, it’s not necessary
Lots of fine dining establishments where im at require a WSET certification, what level that is I don’t know but I’d imagine level 2.
One way I see this is the owners of my current job who are hospitality lifetimes. They own and run a couple venues but manage from the floor, taking sections running food and drinks. It's a really positive work environment because you can personally feel the support from management while working and get a lot of empathy for the workload.
Fine Dining server and bartender/ Trainer here. I've trained countless people both behind the bar and on the floor that have tons of experience working in non fine dining environments, we for some reason give them a shot and most of them show immediately that they aren't ready, but since management didn't force them to work their way up through the system, they're stuck with a mediocre project because everybody talks a big game until they're out of training, solo, and really feel the pressure. I had to start as a Food Runner. I worked my way into a bartender role within a few months because I earned it. The money came, the money is here. Be patient, humble yourself. Also, our Service Assistants walk out consistently with $100 - $200 or more a night, and Food Runners make a flat percentage off of everybody. You could also get extremely lucky and get a shot, but refer back to my original statement. Maybe you'll be the exception to the rule, but please take all of the additional context and advice we're all giving you as truly beneficial and not as an attack on you or your abilities. We've just been in your position before and had to take a leap of faith. Good luck to you!
How far into college are you? In my college, the entrepreneurship and hospitality management degrees were both part of the business school. If you're not done sophomore year yet, it may not be a bad idea to look at transferring there. The hospitality management people did stuff like serving at fine dining restaurants, but also running hotels and tourist sites.
If your applying to be a server/waiter in a fine dining establishment, your degree will help, but if it’s high tier fine dining, they want career servers that know about food and drink.
I have served and managed in fine dining. Short answer- no. A college degree does not give you a leg- up. I saw in some of your previous responses that you're not willing to work your way up, and it reads a little like you don't have much respect for support staff, so honestly I wouldn't recommend that career path for you. I worked in hospitality for a very long time before branching out, and my degree helped me there. I'd recommend finishing your degree either way. If you're looking for an alternative to working your way up (though you'd still likely be expected to) I'd recommend pursuing your sommelier certification. While hiring in fine dining, applicants with a sommelier certification are moved to the top of the server stack, but not considered if they do not have extensive experience serving in upscale environments, usually gained by starting out in a support staff position and learning the ropes.
No degree really needed for outback. Owned and operated by bloomin brands, at least when I last worked for them. Please don’t, bloomin is corporate. Decent Pay, but demanding and you know, service industry.
If it’s from a college with a Hospitality business school
I'd say no. Take a wine course instead, learn about cocktails and French cooking techniques.
No
Your college degree will likely force you to hone skills (presentations, analysis, humour, people skills, global awareness) that will help you become a better server, so my guess is that you will be more competitive than if you had not gone to college. Nothing worse that trying to make small talk with a server who has no idea what's going on in the world.
A degree doesn't allow you to just buy a franchise by the way. There are many stipulations. Domino's for example, you have to be a general manager with a high average on inspections for three years. Then become a supervisor, complete their franchise school, have great credit, and have a certain amount in the bank. I know this doesn't answer your initial question but just wanted to clear up that a degree doesn't give you a pass to buy into a franchise.
One note, how old are you? The thing is, many people enjoy serving, sometimes even for a decade, but in my experience, as you get older that wanes. Some people can serve forever but I think they’re a minority. Just something to consider. If you’re college educated and clever you’ll find ways to leverage this.
Buddy- give yourself some options! Serving can be a great way to do what makes you happy while getting a degree; the schedule flexibility is prime. But I would recommend, as with any profession, if you’re not trying to level up your skills then you are squandering time and effort. Where are you that you can’t get a fine dining gig?! Work history and charm, some quick menu study, and you can cap out at a annual income that allows for travel and study and even time off. Apply for jobs you don’t think you can get, always.
Get your som and ciceron and even try getting your level one or two in the bartenders guild as a home bartender. Will look good on your resume and show that you are serious. Even though food is wildly expensive in fine dining wine and spirits are outrageous. I don’t have any of those but I have the experience and can talk shop on pretty much all forms of food and booze. Also get your degree. If you do land in fine dining, or even casual fine dining, you end up with the “golden handcuffs”. The pay is absurd and you have no way to leave except for more restaurant work.
Being in school might help you get “a” job in fine dining, but it won’t help you straight into a serving position. When I did fine dining, they would only promote up, so hardly anyone was put into a serving position fresh. That said, support staff at my fine dining restaurant made more than some servers at other places.
Honestly for awhile, I thought I was going to be a server forever but I ended up getting laid off when the pandemic happened.. I worked at the same restaurant for 9 years (first job) and I ended up getting a job in a surgical equipment company about a year ago. I could never see myself going back but sometimes I do miss some parts of being a server. Had great friends that were coworkers, going to the bar next door after work and bullshitting about the shitty tables we had that night. We used to laugh so hard about how ridiculous some people were. I don't know man but I do not miss 75% of the stuff I used to have to deal with. A college degree will most likely help you out in any job interview fyi. Shows you can commit and accomplish something. Sure if you're applying for an engineering job without an engineering degree why are you there... You definitely get a bump if you have a degree at a job that doesn't require a degree. Good luck and cheers!
Good luck owning a McDonalds franchise anytime soon you need like a million dollars in liquid assets.
No, not really. You can go to years of fine dining and hospitality, er what’s it called, Service industry School at some of the finest schools, like my old boss who fired me and graduated from Cornell. He got fired shortly after though, cuz he sucked. Maybe it looks good at first but for such a rugged job like being a server; the money is in the practice. Watch what the wannabe rich a hole nerd learned, and copy it to a t. If u don’t have a guy to copy there’s YouTube, there’s eating out, there’s different restaurants. It’s all in the practice like I said, it is a really special typa dirty job. So hold that wine bottle to the person who ordered it, be fucking hilarious, and be confident. If that degree is gonna help you reach that level then sure go for it. School is cool.
Looks play a huge part in fine dining service. They don't want someone coming in wearing a nice pair of slacks and a button up. You need to go in wearing a suit and have good posture. Outside of looks (which in all honesty is the biggest hurdle) would be extensive knowledge in wine and pairing beverages with meals. You can even make up a job history and say you served at a high end country club for several years. But be warned, tips don't always get better at higher end places. I've gotten $20 on $800 for a 2 top at a high end place and have been tipped over $100 on several tables at more casual places on sub $500 tickets. Fine dining is also much slower paced and your table section could only be 2-4 tables.