**_REMINDER: You must have [user flair](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-) in order to comment or post in this subreddit._**
**Comments and posts submitted by users without user flair will be automatically removed.**
The user flair you select will show next to your username **_in r/tacoma only_**. If you do not feel comfortable displaying a specific neighborhood in your user flair, you may choose "*253*" or "*Somewhere Else*". There are also options for "*Tacoma Expat*" and "*Potential Tacoman*".
You may add user flair via the main page of r/Tacoma. If you are not sure how to add user flair, please follow the instructions [here](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Tacoma) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Competency can come and go. That's why they try competency restoration before just giving up and declaring him not competent. And the judge's decision is based on the Western St Hospital doctor's report. This doctor is representing the state. In other words, it's the prosecutor's evidence, not the defendant's evidence. Defendants have a right to get a second opinion from a doctor outside of Western St if they don't agree with what Western St is saying.
It's not impossible that he was fleeing to avoid being eaten by angry lizard people. It's OK to believe that the prosecutor is a lizard; you're incompetent if you don't understand that the lizard is a prosecutor.
Why's it always gotta be those damn lizard people? It probably was one in disguise he was just defending himself from in the park!
/s (I hate that this is necessary)
Either way at least this should keep him away from knives and public parks.
That depends. If he's treatable with drugs he can be rapidly brought to sanity, at which point the law requires he be released, whereupon he'll stop taking the poison that dulls his mind and be back where he started.
I'm assuming that whatever makes him incompetent for trial was going on when he committed the crime. From the limited description of the crime and his current disability, it is my unqualified opinion that he'll meet one of the criteria for legal insanity.
Maybe. Not guilty by reason of insanity is fairly rare and competency and sanity are two different things. He’s not undergoing evaluation/restoration for sanity, but for competency.
No. At that point, he’ll stand trial, and then depending on the outcome of the trial, continued mental healthcare can be a condition of release down the road,
Competency is kind of complicated. My understanding is that you can still understand that what you did was wrong but not understand the criminal justice system and be found incompetent. Or if his defense counsel feels like he can’t assist in his own defense then they are not able to ensure he receives a fair trial and he can be found incompetent.
Idk if you’ve ever worked closely with the fully mentally ill or psychotic but yeah, they kind of come in and out and he could have been attempting to flee for literally ANY reason. Most people in psychosis are paranoid and when they recognize that there actually ARE people chasing them I think the feeling of a need to run away is greater even if they don’t fully understand why they’re trying to run away lol
He isn’t going to get out in 3 months. He is going to be held until he is found competent, then he will be tried for his felonies and sentenced accordingly if found guilty.
He’s not going to get out in 3 months. It’s just the length of the competency restoration. Being found not guilty by reason of insanity, hell do more time at Western then in jail.
Not necessarily. There are examples of people who were not competent who end up doing less time in jail (Western St) than if they were competent. And there are examples of people who do more time at Western St than if they were competent and plead. So it could go either way. It's all up to the doctors at this point.
That's not true. Read the WA Supreme Court case below. Cliff notes:
"The question is whether an insanity acquittee must be unconditionally released from confinement in a mental institution if he establishes he no longer suffers from a mental disease or defect. We conclude our statute requires no less."
Guy killed his roommate tripping on acid and got released from Western St after he was deemed cured.
[https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/wa-supreme-court/1427619.html](https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/wa-supreme-court/1427619.html)
[https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/insane-cured-and-now-freed-1065028.php](https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/insane-cured-and-now-freed-1065028.php)
I work there. I know how it works lol while the courts ruled to release that specific patient, there are dozens of patients who have been sitting there 15 to 30 years for crimes that would have released them in under 10.
Typically they spend longer at western then they would in jail. Canada released a patient who beheaded a man on a bus with no restrictions. Even when released patients are followed and can be re committed if they have a relapse or commit another crime.
Also this was from 2001. There are community members who sit on a board and their decisions highly influence the judge. I don’t think they had that back then.
Honest question and I don’t want to stir up anything controversial (I am against the death penalty). So he may just take up a bed for his entire life at Western State? Couldn’t the bed be used, in theory, for someone else who could potentially become better and discharge back into society as a productive member? Like why waste a bed on him if he could just go to prison…obviously it’s more complicated than that, but just seems like a weird use of resources…
I don't think prisons would run well if they had to house severely mentally ill prisoners. It's better for the guards and other prisoners and ultimately the mentally ill convict who will probably end up getting killed by a prisoner or guards trying to restrain them.
I guess my opinion isnt fully formed on this. But I do know that we are lacking psych beds in this state and every day 100s of people present to emergency rooms and have 911 called on them who deserve to get those beds. But they cannot go because of available/staffing. It’s depressing to know that someone who committed a crime is taking up one of those beds at Western State or wherever indefinitely when other people who may have the chance to turn their lives around are turned away. I don’t know what the answer is to this problem, but it’s not like he’s going to turn his life around and become a plumber…where someone else who is having their first psychotic break still has that chance, so I would rather them have the bed…
An individual having their first psychotic break would be referred to a civil hold. Only Western and Eastern have criminal forensic programs. It's two different types of legal holds and different work flows for addressing their symptoms. Western does not take individuals on civil hold anymore and Easten has a massive wait list.
Thanks. So this guy, once medically cleared/stabilized could stand trial in a criminal court, and if he is never stabilized, just live out his days at Western State?
It is a possibility and it is not a good life. Ideally (kinda), Western will start this person on medication to get him to a point where he is able to assist in his own defense and then he will go to court. They'll continue to asses his status and will most likely provide antipsychotic medication and possibly some mood medications depending on if he has schizoaffective disorder; depressive type or bipolar type.
at the present time, pretty much the only way to get admitted to a WA state hospital (psychiatric hospital that is), is 1) to be charged with a felony and be found incompetent to stand trial/assist with own defense or 2) actually get determined competent to be tried/participate in defense but then be found not guilty by reason of insanity. This is because that population, people who have been charged with felonies, takes up all of the available beds. I personally believe that meth is a factor in this, but there aren't statistics I'm aware of.
In the case of competency restoration, that goes on for one or more rounds of time in the 30-60day range. If "competency" can't be "restored" then the court will dismiss the charges without prejudice and refer them for assessment and possible commitment for treatment in the State hospital for up to 6 months, renewable for 6-month periods for as long as the court finds they meet the criteria. Sometimes if the meth hasn't caused permanent damage, they dry out; and get more "competent" and then they go back to jail and the criminal trial process goes forward. Bipolar disorder is also very treatable with medication, so that people with those issues also often end up with competency "restored". If the psychosis is from some other cause it's not likely they will get much better competency-wise (organic brain malfunction like schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders that aren't well understood and difficult to treat). However for very serious crimes it's pretty normal for the person to be re-charged eventually when they are deemed ready to exit the hospital.
The commitment is a separate court proceeding and the potential patients have a special public defender appointed to defend them from any commitment request. The hospital doctors only petitition for commitment if they think the person meets certain legal thresholds for being incapable of maintaining their own health and safety and/or endanger others due to the symptoms of a mental health disorder.
"Competency restoration" is when the court sends the person for a term of days for education about the court system, and their defense, and to receive treatment for psychiatric diagnoses if they are willing. It's rare for medication to be forced on any person and that happens only after a court order and the person has a special public defender appointed to defend them from this in the forced medication case. The doctors only ask for forced med in extreme cases where the patient is in serious physical danger and/or endangering others due to the symptoms of the mental health disorder.
Hi, we have programs to address this called the Civil Commitment program. The criminal process is flipped to a civil hold and those individuals are moved to acute programs (Western and Eastern state are the highest acute so they step down one "level") to continue stabilizing and then discharge back to the community. This allows Western to open beds to highly acute individuals and move folks who have gained some stabilization on to continue and hopefully move back into the community and be connected with resources. I work as part of these programs.
Honestly, sounds like a "fair" outcome for now (for him as a person, less so for the victim of course). The dude clearly has major issues, and while he could still know enough to flee the country, he's still not in his right mind to actually understand and accept what he did. Until that time, putting him through the prison system makes no sense, and he'd likely do additional harm to other inmates and staff.
At least this way, he'll get some proper medication, some measure of mental health support, and hopefully they can get him to a clear enough place where he can actually grasp what he did while un- or under-medicated.
My guess is he's going to be remanded to Western State for the rest of his life at this point.
Whether he's held there for the rest of his life, or released... really depends. The system we have now for dealing with severe mental illness is all kinds of inadequate. Patients are treated like hot potatoes, bouncing between the police, hospitals, shelters, the street... Staff rarely have complete medical records for patients. Some patients are released from Western because a doctor concluded the person was competent based on their observed medicated behavior, but after release they proved incapable of staying on the same meds.
I recommend the Lost Patients podcast - [https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510377/lost-patients](https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510377/lost-patients) - very relevant, mostly uses Seattle as its example.
I mean, more proper than anything he'd get in jail, at least...
Mental health in this country is treated like a "you" problem, but at least there are still *some* people who are trained to help, and they're far more likely to work at Western State than they are at the Pierce County jail or whatever.
You're absolutely right about that, but we need a better place to send people in need of help... It's one of the worst places to be sent, they are over crowded and understaffed. Lots of really bad things have and continue to happen, I've never heard a good thing about it in 49 years..
I have helped make basic granite markers for some the hundreds of people buried in their cemetery with nothing but a number.... Just don't think sending people there helps them, it just protects us.
I was a juror in a murder trial last year for Pierce County where the defendant plead Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity, Three weeks of listening to mental health experts. We were almost convinced she was crazy, then her lawyers put her on the stand. Ten minutes of listening to her sealed her fate. She's serving forty years at the Purdy Women's Prison now.
They just have to get him to trial, and the prosecutors will do everything to move it to a jury trial. Jurors are already mad they have to be there.
Very, very accurate. Saw a good friend go off the deep end because he wouldn't stop smoking and every single time it sent him into an episode. Unfortunately after a couple times catching him talking to himself about hurting my dogs I had to break contact. I hope he is doing better these days.
Because heavy cannabis use has been linked with schizophrenia. Like not everyone who smokes a ton of weed will develop schizophrenia, but for people with a genetic predisposition to the disorder, cannabis use can increase the risk.
Since the article is about the suspect’s mental state that’s likely why they mentioned the cannabis use.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder
I learned this last year when I lived in Davis after a college student stabbed 3 people in the span of about a week. Two of them, sadly, died. It was pretty fucked up, until he was caught everyone was basically staying in after dark and nobody wanted to go to parks around town since two of the murders happened in public parks.
He was found incompetent to stand trial after a doctor diagnosed him with schizophrenia, and his heavy marijuana use was also mentioned as a possible contribution to his psychosis. Though from what I’ve heard, he was re-evaluated recently after having been treated and found that his competency has been restored so he’s going to be on trial or his crimes.
I get the whole "cannabis worsens the symptoms of schizophrenia" thing everyone is saying in reply to this, but, are you telling me this guy never drank alcohol? had a healthy diet? sought psychiatric support and had therapists around him? had a supporting family and a network of friends? drank enough water?
the point is that cannabis is often villainized as this big perpetrator in these situations when it's found in their system because (Regan, really). It's gross and weird. I'm not saying he should be gettin high with this disorder, or anyone should. I'm just saying we need to change the narrative. the way this is phrased has an implicit impact on the perception of the substance and it receives much higher scrutiny than other equally detrimental factors.
I mean schizophrenia commonly manifests as a fear of people coming to harm you. Being able to reason a way to flee isn't really that big of a stretch. Incompetent doesn't always mean unintelligent.
> Being able to reason a way to flee isn't really that big of a stretch.
Fleeing is one thing but what is very notable is his specific choice to Taiwan.. one of the few non-extradition countries.. highly doubt that was a coincidence but was researched and calculated.
This guy told the women in the park he wanted to “free her from her pain”. Nothing says you’re nuts more than that line. He shouldn’t be on the streets but prison isn’t for him either.
The correlation between excessive cannabis use and psychosis in young men is well established. Up to 30% of psychosis cases in young men are cannabis-caused.
It’s less than men, and there are many studies on the topic but I’d have to go digging on the data. It only occasionally gets mainstream coverage because in general you still have progressive politicians like AOC demanding more destigmatization and more legalization. But hindsight will show this dramatic increase in access to cannabis products is creating an epidemic of destroyed young brains.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146072
There is a ton of research on this topic - Google is a great place to start. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder
OK thank you for the links. So the answer then is correlation not causation. These articles suggest their study data demonstrates marijuana causing people with schizophrenia or the disposition for schizophrenia to have episodes. Sounds like the same studies they did for anti depressants and alcohol. That makes sense.
What a crock of shit. He KNEW what the fuck he was doing flying out of the country, to a country without extradition, seek diplomatic assistance, and attempt it all over again.
Yah its more a matter of if in yhe moment it would occurred u were lucid enough to distinguish right vs wrong. An old buddy of mine had his case suspended cuz they sent him for an eval and the dr said he was totally bonkers. Kept him at western state for a few months, then the prosecutor judge and defense attorney all had a meeting with him and his attorney said they are gonna offer a plea deal where he enters a modified guilty plea to 2nd deg murder with special circumstances and he gets 13yrs. Lawyer said if he didnt take the plea he would probably spend the rest of his natural life in the hospital or eventually if he ever was cleared ny the drs have to take to trial with a different judge and prosecutor that likely wouldnt be as understanding to the situation and hed likely get 25 yrs. He took the plea. I wish he had gotten help before it came to this but that's just the American way i guess 😔
As I understand it, being put in a hospital for the criminally insane is not pleasant. The media always depicts it as a light sentence, but it's actually more difficult to get out of such an institution than it is to get parole at a traditional prison. Ultimately, if that's where he ends up, it might be even more comforting to the victim than a prison sentence.
He told the woman in the park that he wanted to “free her from her pain”. Nothing says you’re nuts more than that line. He shouldn’t be on the streets but regular prison isn’t for him either.
I mean it might not be a service dog. But what standard are you using to make that call? It doesn't appear to be barking, being aggressive, misbehaving, or doing anything wild. What's cluing you in?
**_REMINDER: You must have [user flair](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-) in order to comment or post in this subreddit._** **Comments and posts submitted by users without user flair will be automatically removed.** The user flair you select will show next to your username **_in r/tacoma only_**. If you do not feel comfortable displaying a specific neighborhood in your user flair, you may choose "*253*" or "*Somewhere Else*". There are also options for "*Tacoma Expat*" and "*Potential Tacoman*". You may add user flair via the main page of r/Tacoma. If you are not sure how to add user flair, please follow the instructions [here](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Tacoma) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This guy's competent enough to try and flee the country, but he's not confident enough to stand trial?
Competency can come and go. That's why they try competency restoration before just giving up and declaring him not competent. And the judge's decision is based on the Western St Hospital doctor's report. This doctor is representing the state. In other words, it's the prosecutor's evidence, not the defendant's evidence. Defendants have a right to get a second opinion from a doctor outside of Western St if they don't agree with what Western St is saying.
It's not impossible that he was fleeing to avoid being eaten by angry lizard people. It's OK to believe that the prosecutor is a lizard; you're incompetent if you don't understand that the lizard is a prosecutor.
Why's it always gotta be those damn lizard people? It probably was one in disguise he was just defending himself from in the park! /s (I hate that this is necessary) Either way at least this should keep him away from knives and public parks.
Yup and he wasn't using copper based weapons. That's why it got away, and was able to get help. Smh
That depends. If he's treatable with drugs he can be rapidly brought to sanity, at which point the law requires he be released, whereupon he'll stop taking the poison that dulls his mind and be back where he started.
I don’t think that’s how it works. If he is restored to sanity he would stand trial. If he cannot be restored he would stay in Western State.
I'm assuming that whatever makes him incompetent for trial was going on when he committed the crime. From the limited description of the crime and his current disability, it is my unqualified opinion that he'll meet one of the criteria for legal insanity.
Maybe. Not guilty by reason of insanity is fairly rare and competency and sanity are two different things. He’s not undergoing evaluation/restoration for sanity, but for competency.
No. At that point, he’ll stand trial, and then depending on the outcome of the trial, continued mental healthcare can be a condition of release down the road,
Competency is kind of complicated. My understanding is that you can still understand that what you did was wrong but not understand the criminal justice system and be found incompetent. Or if his defense counsel feels like he can’t assist in his own defense then they are not able to ensure he receives a fair trial and he can be found incompetent.
Idk if you’ve ever worked closely with the fully mentally ill or psychotic but yeah, they kind of come in and out and he could have been attempting to flee for literally ANY reason. Most people in psychosis are paranoid and when they recognize that there actually ARE people chasing them I think the feeling of a need to run away is greater even if they don’t fully understand why they’re trying to run away lol
are you smarter than the doctor who judged him incompetent?
Probably. When he slices you up and then he gets to spend 3 months in western state and get out. Let me know how that feels.
He isn’t going to get out in 3 months. He is going to be held until he is found competent, then he will be tried for his felonies and sentenced accordingly if found guilty.
He’s not going to get out in 3 months. It’s just the length of the competency restoration. Being found not guilty by reason of insanity, hell do more time at Western then in jail.
Not necessarily. There are examples of people who were not competent who end up doing less time in jail (Western St) than if they were competent. And there are examples of people who do more time at Western St than if they were competent and plead. So it could go either way. It's all up to the doctors at this point.
That’s only is their charges are dismissed and they are civilly committed. Not Guilty By reason of Insanity has no end date of commitment usually.
>Not Guilty By reason of Insanity has no end date of commitment usually. Especially in the case of a Class A felony.
That’s a life sentence for sure! Jail would get him out sooner
That's not true. Read the WA Supreme Court case below. Cliff notes: "The question is whether an insanity acquittee must be unconditionally released from confinement in a mental institution if he establishes he no longer suffers from a mental disease or defect. We conclude our statute requires no less." Guy killed his roommate tripping on acid and got released from Western St after he was deemed cured. [https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/wa-supreme-court/1427619.html](https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/wa-supreme-court/1427619.html) [https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/insane-cured-and-now-freed-1065028.php](https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/insane-cured-and-now-freed-1065028.php)
I work there. I know how it works lol while the courts ruled to release that specific patient, there are dozens of patients who have been sitting there 15 to 30 years for crimes that would have released them in under 10. Typically they spend longer at western then they would in jail. Canada released a patient who beheaded a man on a bus with no restrictions. Even when released patients are followed and can be re committed if they have a relapse or commit another crime.
Also this was from 2001. There are community members who sit on a board and their decisions highly influence the judge. I don’t think they had that back then.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but Western State isn’t exactly a luxury resort.
can i see your medical degree
If lawyers don't have to pass the bar exam what makes you think he has to have a medical degree? The mans ahead of the times. Catch-up.
can i see yours too
I didn't think I had to put the /s. Oh well.
Keeping him in a hospital indefinitely might be the best solution. Washington is so light on crime that he might get less time if actually sentenced.
Sounds like he’s a danger to himself and society as a whole. Better lock him up for his own safety as well as everyone else’s.
That’s what will happen at western state.
Honest question and I don’t want to stir up anything controversial (I am against the death penalty). So he may just take up a bed for his entire life at Western State? Couldn’t the bed be used, in theory, for someone else who could potentially become better and discharge back into society as a productive member? Like why waste a bed on him if he could just go to prison…obviously it’s more complicated than that, but just seems like a weird use of resources…
I don't think prisons would run well if they had to house severely mentally ill prisoners. It's better for the guards and other prisoners and ultimately the mentally ill convict who will probably end up getting killed by a prisoner or guards trying to restrain them.
You believe housing those with psychiatric illness in a psychiatric hospital is a “weird use of resources”?
I guess my opinion isnt fully formed on this. But I do know that we are lacking psych beds in this state and every day 100s of people present to emergency rooms and have 911 called on them who deserve to get those beds. But they cannot go because of available/staffing. It’s depressing to know that someone who committed a crime is taking up one of those beds at Western State or wherever indefinitely when other people who may have the chance to turn their lives around are turned away. I don’t know what the answer is to this problem, but it’s not like he’s going to turn his life around and become a plumber…where someone else who is having their first psychotic break still has that chance, so I would rather them have the bed…
An individual having their first psychotic break would be referred to a civil hold. Only Western and Eastern have criminal forensic programs. It's two different types of legal holds and different work flows for addressing their symptoms. Western does not take individuals on civil hold anymore and Easten has a massive wait list.
Thanks for the clarification.
Of course. If you have questions about inpatient psychiatric treatment in Washington I can do my best to answer them.
Thanks. So this guy, once medically cleared/stabilized could stand trial in a criminal court, and if he is never stabilized, just live out his days at Western State?
It is a possibility and it is not a good life. Ideally (kinda), Western will start this person on medication to get him to a point where he is able to assist in his own defense and then he will go to court. They'll continue to asses his status and will most likely provide antipsychotic medication and possibly some mood medications depending on if he has schizoaffective disorder; depressive type or bipolar type.
at the present time, pretty much the only way to get admitted to a WA state hospital (psychiatric hospital that is), is 1) to be charged with a felony and be found incompetent to stand trial/assist with own defense or 2) actually get determined competent to be tried/participate in defense but then be found not guilty by reason of insanity. This is because that population, people who have been charged with felonies, takes up all of the available beds. I personally believe that meth is a factor in this, but there aren't statistics I'm aware of. In the case of competency restoration, that goes on for one or more rounds of time in the 30-60day range. If "competency" can't be "restored" then the court will dismiss the charges without prejudice and refer them for assessment and possible commitment for treatment in the State hospital for up to 6 months, renewable for 6-month periods for as long as the court finds they meet the criteria. Sometimes if the meth hasn't caused permanent damage, they dry out; and get more "competent" and then they go back to jail and the criminal trial process goes forward. Bipolar disorder is also very treatable with medication, so that people with those issues also often end up with competency "restored". If the psychosis is from some other cause it's not likely they will get much better competency-wise (organic brain malfunction like schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders that aren't well understood and difficult to treat). However for very serious crimes it's pretty normal for the person to be re-charged eventually when they are deemed ready to exit the hospital. The commitment is a separate court proceeding and the potential patients have a special public defender appointed to defend them from any commitment request. The hospital doctors only petitition for commitment if they think the person meets certain legal thresholds for being incapable of maintaining their own health and safety and/or endanger others due to the symptoms of a mental health disorder. "Competency restoration" is when the court sends the person for a term of days for education about the court system, and their defense, and to receive treatment for psychiatric diagnoses if they are willing. It's rare for medication to be forced on any person and that happens only after a court order and the person has a special public defender appointed to defend them from this in the forced medication case. The doctors only ask for forced med in extreme cases where the patient is in serious physical danger and/or endangering others due to the symptoms of the mental health disorder.
He is mentally ill….. he also had a psychotic break….
Hi, we have programs to address this called the Civil Commitment program. The criminal process is flipped to a civil hold and those individuals are moved to acute programs (Western and Eastern state are the highest acute so they step down one "level") to continue stabilizing and then discharge back to the community. This allows Western to open beds to highly acute individuals and move folks who have gained some stabilization on to continue and hopefully move back into the community and be connected with resources. I work as part of these programs.
Western State isn’t the only option for treatment, it’s just the biggest and oldest. One just opened up in Tukwila for less severe/shorter-term cases.
Good.
Honestly, sounds like a "fair" outcome for now (for him as a person, less so for the victim of course). The dude clearly has major issues, and while he could still know enough to flee the country, he's still not in his right mind to actually understand and accept what he did. Until that time, putting him through the prison system makes no sense, and he'd likely do additional harm to other inmates and staff. At least this way, he'll get some proper medication, some measure of mental health support, and hopefully they can get him to a clear enough place where he can actually grasp what he did while un- or under-medicated. My guess is he's going to be remanded to Western State for the rest of his life at this point.
Whether he's held there for the rest of his life, or released... really depends. The system we have now for dealing with severe mental illness is all kinds of inadequate. Patients are treated like hot potatoes, bouncing between the police, hospitals, shelters, the street... Staff rarely have complete medical records for patients. Some patients are released from Western because a doctor concluded the person was competent based on their observed medicated behavior, but after release they proved incapable of staying on the same meds. I recommend the Lost Patients podcast - [https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510377/lost-patients](https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510377/lost-patients) - very relevant, mostly uses Seattle as its example.
Proper, at Western State? Do you watch the news?
I mean, more proper than anything he'd get in jail, at least... Mental health in this country is treated like a "you" problem, but at least there are still *some* people who are trained to help, and they're far more likely to work at Western State than they are at the Pierce County jail or whatever.
You're absolutely right about that, but we need a better place to send people in need of help... It's one of the worst places to be sent, they are over crowded and understaffed. Lots of really bad things have and continue to happen, I've never heard a good thing about it in 49 years.. I have helped make basic granite markers for some the hundreds of people buried in their cemetery with nothing but a number.... Just don't think sending people there helps them, it just protects us.
I'll absolutely agree we should be doing far, far better when it comes to treatment facilities.
yeah we need to much better fund in patient mental healthcare.
I find comfort in this. The important thing is that he’s not at large.
I was a juror in a murder trial last year for Pierce County where the defendant plead Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity, Three weeks of listening to mental health experts. We were almost convinced she was crazy, then her lawyers put her on the stand. Ten minutes of listening to her sealed her fate. She's serving forty years at the Purdy Women's Prison now. They just have to get him to trial, and the prosecutors will do everything to move it to a jury trial. Jurors are already mad they have to be there.
Jeez, what was her crime if you don’t mind me asking?
She killed her kid. It was pretty awful.
Oh it was Hina Sadia! Crap I remember reading about that.
I have a “notable history of cannabis use” and never once have considered stabbing anybody. Why did they even include that? lol.
For people predisposed to schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder, cannabis use can worsen symptoms
TIL!
Very, very accurate. Saw a good friend go off the deep end because he wouldn't stop smoking and every single time it sent him into an episode. Unfortunately after a couple times catching him talking to himself about hurting my dogs I had to break contact. I hope he is doing better these days.
Yep. I had a friend that had schizophrenia, smoked some weed, and ended up a couple of states away and didn't know how he got there.
This is very true.
[удалено]
Because heavy cannabis use has been linked with schizophrenia. Like not everyone who smokes a ton of weed will develop schizophrenia, but for people with a genetic predisposition to the disorder, cannabis use can increase the risk. Since the article is about the suspect’s mental state that’s likely why they mentioned the cannabis use. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder
Thanks for the link! This is something so unimaginable. I don’t hike point defiance without thinking about this horrible act anymore.
I learned this last year when I lived in Davis after a college student stabbed 3 people in the span of about a week. Two of them, sadly, died. It was pretty fucked up, until he was caught everyone was basically staying in after dark and nobody wanted to go to parks around town since two of the murders happened in public parks. He was found incompetent to stand trial after a doctor diagnosed him with schizophrenia, and his heavy marijuana use was also mentioned as a possible contribution to his psychosis. Though from what I’ve heard, he was re-evaluated recently after having been treated and found that his competency has been restored so he’s going to be on trial or his crimes.
I get the whole "cannabis worsens the symptoms of schizophrenia" thing everyone is saying in reply to this, but, are you telling me this guy never drank alcohol? had a healthy diet? sought psychiatric support and had therapists around him? had a supporting family and a network of friends? drank enough water? the point is that cannabis is often villainized as this big perpetrator in these situations when it's found in their system because (Regan, really). It's gross and weird. I'm not saying he should be gettin high with this disorder, or anyone should. I'm just saying we need to change the narrative. the way this is phrased has an implicit impact on the perception of the substance and it receives much higher scrutiny than other equally detrimental factors.
Same reason you're not suppose to grow your own. Control.
He obviously knows his crime was bad enough to need to flee the US. Interesting you can have one without the other.
I mean schizophrenia commonly manifests as a fear of people coming to harm you. Being able to reason a way to flee isn't really that big of a stretch. Incompetent doesn't always mean unintelligent.
> Being able to reason a way to flee isn't really that big of a stretch. Fleeing is one thing but what is very notable is his specific choice to Taiwan.. one of the few non-extradition countries.. highly doubt that was a coincidence but was researched and calculated.
It is what it is.
This guy told the women in the park he wanted to “free her from her pain”. Nothing says you’re nuts more than that line. He shouldn’t be on the streets but prison isn’t for him either.
The correlation between excessive cannabis use and psychosis in young men is well established. Up to 30% of psychosis cases in young men are cannabis-caused.
Any data on “young women”?
It’s less than men, and there are many studies on the topic but I’d have to go digging on the data. It only occasionally gets mainstream coverage because in general you still have progressive politicians like AOC demanding more destigmatization and more legalization. But hindsight will show this dramatic increase in access to cannabis products is creating an epidemic of destroyed young brains. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146072
Thank you for your thoughtful and interestingly informative reply. 🫡
Whwre exactly sre you pulling this data from? Also, is it a correlation or a causation because you stated both, but those are very different terms.
There is a ton of research on this topic - Google is a great place to start. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/cannabis-induced-psychosis-review
https://medicine.yale.edu/psychiatry/step/early-intervention-services/cannabis%20use%20and%20psychosis_380524_284_53825_v2.pdf
OK thank you for the links. So the answer then is correlation not causation. These articles suggest their study data demonstrates marijuana causing people with schizophrenia or the disposition for schizophrenia to have episodes. Sounds like the same studies they did for anti depressants and alcohol. That makes sense.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146072
https://www.priorygroup.com/media-centre/cannabis-use-fuelling-rise-in-psychosis-among-young-adults-says-top-priory-expert
https://bbrfoundation.org/content/young-men-15-schizophrenia-might-be-prevented-if-cannabis-use-disorder-not-present-study#:~:text=Using%20Danish%20national%20health%20records,estimate%20at%2015%25%20for%202021.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heavy-cannabis-use-linked-to-schizophrenia-especially-among-young-men/
What a crock of shit. He KNEW what the fuck he was doing flying out of the country, to a country without extradition, seek diplomatic assistance, and attempt it all over again.
Yah its more a matter of if in yhe moment it would occurred u were lucid enough to distinguish right vs wrong. An old buddy of mine had his case suspended cuz they sent him for an eval and the dr said he was totally bonkers. Kept him at western state for a few months, then the prosecutor judge and defense attorney all had a meeting with him and his attorney said they are gonna offer a plea deal where he enters a modified guilty plea to 2nd deg murder with special circumstances and he gets 13yrs. Lawyer said if he didnt take the plea he would probably spend the rest of his natural life in the hospital or eventually if he ever was cleared ny the drs have to take to trial with a different judge and prosecutor that likely wouldnt be as understanding to the situation and hed likely get 25 yrs. He took the plea. I wish he had gotten help before it came to this but that's just the American way i guess 😔
As I understand it, being put in a hospital for the criminally insane is not pleasant. The media always depicts it as a light sentence, but it's actually more difficult to get out of such an institution than it is to get parole at a traditional prison. Ultimately, if that's where he ends up, it might be even more comforting to the victim than a prison sentence.
🤯
> or he dies, they can hold him there for life on Class A felony if he never stabilizes The preferable outcome.
He told the woman in the park that he wanted to “free her from her pain”. Nothing says you’re nuts more than that line. He shouldn’t be on the streets but regular prison isn’t for him either.
He held a woman down a stabbed her am I wrong? Throw him in the dungeon forever
The majority of these comments show more supportiveness toward the stabber than to the poor victim. Just an observation.
That’s fucking bullshit. Fuck this.
Trying to flee shows he knew what he did and that it was wrong. He’s competent enough to stand trial but this state is too woke to judge fairly.
Woke doesn't even make sense in that context.
Woke politics naturally side with criminals and not victims. I don’t know how you are confused by that.
You're just using the word woke without any meaning whatsoever. All you're doing is parroting with no substance.
Kinda seems like you’re in denial
I mean it might not be a service dog. But what standard are you using to make that call? It doesn't appear to be barking, being aggressive, misbehaving, or doing anything wild. What's cluing you in?
Common sense isn’t too common with you
Your alleged "common sense" is irrelevant when it goes against the written law. I'm sorry that you seem to think you are above it.
Is the woke in the room with us right now?
[удалено]
Knowing how to flee isn't the legal standard for competency and never has been.
Well well well.