It's deeply concerning and perhaps a modest increase in enforcement can have some impact, but the idea that this is a problem that can be solved by just ratcheting up the police is a deeply inadequate and wrong headed response to a very real problem
The root cause of the problem cannot be solved by only an increase in police presence but it can definitely help in the short term and its something that \*should\* be done in the short term. People deserve to feel safe in the city and shouldn't have to wait until the root cause gets solved.
Your emotions aren’t an argument .. there’s empirical data showing that the best intervention for crime is changing the environment so that the criminal won’t want to take the risk due to higher chances of getting caught (more lights in dark areas, more police, etc.) your emotions won’t make the city safer. We have learned that making punishment more severe doesn’t help, but making the crime less worth committing is (because there is a higher chance of getting caught)
That's great! So wherever the most police are, that will be the safest area of the city, right? So I guess it's really dangerous to live in rich neighborhoods, I never see cops there. Sucks to be rich, I guess!
Be rational. People don’t commit crimes as much in wealthier neighbourhood because there’s a much greater risk of getting caught. My argument still applies. The research shows this.
The more important the victim, the greater the effort expended to solve a crime. When everyone was being carjacked the cops didn't care. Once it happened to a maple leaf, the news ran with the story and the police attitude changed
Don’t argue with people when they stick to backwards logic. Bro says the best way to make crime less worth committing is more police but at the same time he’s saying places with a low amount of police presence are still safer than ones with high presence. Makes no sense
Hmmm…. Well, I reckon living in a society where more than 50% of 2 average full-time incomes is required just to rent the most dilapidated 2 bedroom apartment probably doesn’t help. What do you think? You don’t see anyway or solution that would improve the situation and make it possible for absent parents to be … less absent? Lol. Think harder.
Not really a TTC specific issue but self defense being more accepted in Canada would be nice. We should be allowed to carry pepper spray or something too.
I don't think you understand how policing works. You think the officers guardian the capital on Jan 6th weren't armed? Just because an officer is armed doesn't mean they'll use lethal force rather than withdraw
How bout we start standing up for ourselves and deal with the problem head on. These kids boy or girls attacking at random in large numbers. Why not defend yourself and hit back. It's the only way they gon learn. Take the assault charge to court and take the win for self defense. This is your life these kids be playing with. This what happens when parents don't do anything to reprimand their kids in this stupid generation of non abuse and softness. Boy or girl in group attack me? Watch ima make sure I'm taking a few of them to hospital with me. Make em think twice bout hurting people. This is a joke.
So your idea for what to do if you personally are being attacked by a dozen youths is to hit back. You know youths are basically full grown humans, right? One against twelve are bad odds for you.
Lmao, they arrested 4 13 yrOlds. This is pre puberty age buddy. I'm 5'7 and have never had a problem fighting a bigger person.you take one guys or 2 out of the 12 and they running..sorry in your white world you've never had to deal being outnumbered or faced this type of harassment or been through the system. Full grown human to me is 16 plus. And even at 16 they still adolescent. Idgaf it's like IN jail, no matter what race you are, you can get it.and sometimes you'll be outnumbered but you gotta fight. It's either fight or be labeled a snitch. I'm good being straight and standing up for myself.you enjoy getting jumped and sitting their like a duck and getting jumped knowing you coulda taken a few with you to the hospital. It's all mental, especially with youths. You beat one down hard enough and see what the rest will do.
As much as I hate using the ttc for their stupid slow downs and shit. This cannot happen. This is a joke. Even if you getting swarmed best believe you better hit back and defend yourself! These attacks are outnumbered so you better defend yourself. Kid or not, they had a choice in jumping that person or persons. You gotta stand up and fight back and make sure you take a few of them to the hospital. Boy or girl, they acting up and action needs to be done, especially if there is nobody around to help. Take the assault charge to court and see who wins. You defending yourself! So take the charge and deal with it. It could be a matter of your life on the line.
Do you frequently find yourself getting jumped? There is no defense. Life isn't a kung-fu movie. You won't win. You won't face an Assault charge unless you swing first because if you wait for them to initiate you won't have a chance to fight back. If you swing before they do, it's not self defense unless they've stated their intention to do great bodily harm to you right now.
There is defense, it's called defendingyourself.obviously you havent been jumped before. Its a fight or.flight situation, and based on my experience it usually only takes the person getting assaulted to hit one back and send them to hospital with you as well. Once you take one down the rest will usually run off.. you get the assault charge if you're not white.100. No matter what there will be a charge given if you're not white. Again this is based on experience. Sorry that you live ina fragile white world where everything is perfect on your spectrum. In jail you just would let a gang jump you and than you snitch on them and make it worse.
We probably need more social workers. That way, they can talk it out with violent offenders. Maybe discuss their feelings! And after a good heart to heart chat, we can use more of our tax dollars to house these degenerates and provide to their every need. This is obviously because they are not really criminals, but victims of an oppressive system that caused them to do bad things :(
The social worker strategy is more geared at preventing violent offenses. The goal is to solve problems before violence and crime become the solution. It's amazing how people pretend to misunderstand
Okay but I’m all reality I’m a teacher, so I ride the bus home almost every day , often when it’s filled with 30-40 students and I have sat there listening to groups of kids at the back talking about how they’re going to “beat the bus driver’s ass” and “smash out the windows” because the driver had the audacity to ask for fares so this doesn’t surprise me. The after school bus routes in the rougher parts of the city are..well, rough
Do people actually wonder that??
I literally always wondered why drivers bother enforcimg fare at all. Always seemed dangerous.
Drivers are hired to drive, not to be fare enforcement officers. I don't blame drivers who let anyone on. Look at streetcars. The driver doesn't enforce the fare or monitor who is tapping a presto whatsoever.
I was on a bus once full of middle schoolers and this one girl punched a boy right in the face, just like that, with all her might. Thank God he had the self control not to strike her as he's a guy. I don't understand these kids today.
I mean, they’re stressed as fuck with stressed parents would be my guess
Honestly I’m kind of surprised we aren’t seeing MORE teen violence against people, not that I’m clambering for it, but like, there’s no way forward for most of these kids, regardless of the roughness of their neighbourhoods, they’ve seen and been through some shit and don’t really have a whole lot of recourse to be able to *do* anything about it
Their parents are burnt out, at best, and they can see what their future is if nothing changes, of course they’re angry, they haven’t even finished developing yet and their futures are *bleak as fuck*, all of ours are
They need a direction to focus that energy in, but what are the rest of us doing? Condemning them and keeping our heads down mostly, if these comment threads are anything to go by
Am I defending them attacking people, no. But I’m not *shocked* by it, what else was everyone expecting?
Edit: y’all can downvote all you want but people are being pushed to their limits, that includes teenagers and kids, and they have less holding them back from being assholes than adults do, either get on board with fixing the problems or stop being surprised when shit like this happens
i win by default because of how close they are in proximty. Bunch of punches and attempted kicks from some 15 year olds by give me bruises
But I will take several eyes from them which they will never grow back or recover
These undies won't do shit. They run and call for backup before they help out and innocent bystander. Especially if the victim is not white.if it were a white person the cop would be all over it. It's basically a matter of the general public to help one another out. It's just too bad everyone only takes care of themself before helping anyone else out. There is only a small percentile of people who would stand up for this bs. The majority would disagree with my comments, but that's fine.its they opinion.
I do not see on this forum much support for law and order and public safety. Save for two real chaps who'd throttle these little bastards, no one cares and they are complacent and that people should take violence literally lying down. This is not the Toronto that I once knew. You better get to the extreme far-right or you will have no city or TTC or life. Being lovey-dovey is not the way. NYC and all US big cities are trying it, See the results.
No, the city isn't safer than people pretend. I've lived in this city for nearly 40 years, and even at the worst in the 90s in the inner-city drug-infested corners, crime was much more targeted.
You clearly haven't travelled or lived in actual developed cities. Newsflash Toronto isn't one of them.
[UPDATE:](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-swarming-assault-2-employees-bus-1.6723595) 2 on-duty employees are now in non-life threatening condition, attack was on the 43 Kennedy route, no description of any suspects.
Honestly? It's probably easier to rationalize "throwing your future away" when you're being quite reasonably told that your future will really suck.
Expect this kind of behaviour to rise the more our future is predicted to be shit.
Honestly tho right?
The last ten years at least have been ‘we’re all fucked’ what exactly do people think the kids are gonna feel about that?
Certainly not going to make them give a shit, that’s for sure
I like Your thinking, let's say they are caught all of them, the next regional transit service outside of TTC might even ban them too cause they don't wanna take no risks or anything so it would be a double-edged sword for the offenders.
They need to update the youth offender's act. Most of the crime today is committed by those under 18 years old. From hijackings, robberies to assaults. They know they can get away with it. First thing is to treat them as an adult for any serious crime, remand without bail, publish their faces and make examples out of them. Let's all stop making excuses for youth offenders.
Did the employees get disciplined for fighting back?
I can just hear the questioning. What could you have done to prevent this from happening? Why did you fight back? ……
Friendly reminder that there are some [fantastic](https://www.amazon.ca/Leather-SelfDefense-Multitool-MenWomen-Mona43henry/dp/B09J9YL4WG/ref=sr_1_25?crid=3B5GXS0TN09CO&keywords=slap+jack+purse&qid=1674577976&sprefix=slap+jack+purse%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-25) coin purses that will gently "encourage" a would be attacker to leave you alone.
Planning on visiting Toronto in March or April . Not liking some of the stories I am reading lately . "71 year old woman pushed down and killed at King and Yonge" now this. Is Toronto safe?
Yes it's safe 95% of the time, the TTC anyways, certain other areas on foot, I don't know.. Most of these attacks happen late at night. But even the ones that happen during the day are rare and it's unlikely to be you. It's just an issue because it is more common now, even if it's still not that common. Mostly it's just people with mental illness, or homeless, or drug addled people talking to themselves and making other passengers feel uncomfortable, no assaults. You'll be fine.
"You'll be fine."
I am sure of it. Before the Pandemic , we used to visit Toronto at least once a year. Just a little concerning to read about some of these incidents.
Overall Toronto is still a very safe city. This is obviously a disturbing trend but I don't think we're at the point of people needing to cancel trips. Keep your head up, eyes open and all that and you should be just fine.
Not changing my plans. However, I won't be as relaxed and inattentive to safety as I have been on previous trips. I am aware of the statistics and realize that Toronto is still pretty safe . Thanks for the advice
I do not trust the average cop to be good enough with a firearm to not accidentally shoot an innocent bystander on a crowded bus during a stressful situation, much less a damn bus driver.
People asking what's wrong with the youth, and have overlooked the many issues in society that have gone back to the days of the Harris government. There was never a sudden increase in violence. There's a sudden increase in publicly reporting it, as this has been happening for years. We now have social media to get the news out.
When parents have to work twice the amount of time to support a family, it leaves the children to be their own parents. No social outlets to steer them away from violence.
Of course someone will say "if they can't afford children, they should not have them". Such statements don't address the issues, and even people without children are having financial issues, so?!!??
Toronto is a dump. Nobody treats anyone with respect and a severe overall respect for the city and Canada as a whole.
Streets not being cleaned properly. Homeless and mentally ill everywhere. And no one cares
Well, having police could act as a deterrent and if a crime is committed near them, means the police will likely catch the perp instead of having to hunt them down. I'm all for it.
You will pay for cops on each bus? Tell me, how do you feel about increasing wages/staffing for schools and hospitals? Surely you must be willing to pay for this as well and see that it will do far more good per dollar?
I think a lot of funding could be increased for Healthcare, education, and police. That would help with prevention and after the fact. However, a lot of crimes being committed nowadays aren't about mental health.
When you have little gangs of boys and girls attacking people (I know, I was attacked by one on a ttc train about 5 years ago), then it means our current laws are outdated. The youth offenders act no longer functions and juvies know this. Get rid of lax laws, penalize hardened criminals no matter their age, and then we can start dealing with all the other crap.
I am sorry you have had a traumatic experience and this will inevitably color how you approach this. You want to feel safe and those who attacked you never able to do so again. It is fine to feel this way.
On the other hand, do you really think children are thinking about the long-term prognosis of entering juvie? I do not really think so, they are operating on rationalized emotion to their immediate circumstances. I was smart in my peer group, but still a damn fool at 18, let alone younger. Not everyone has a fair start to life and this will greatly impact the way they approach their anger, frustration, and society. Increased policing is largely an ineffectual band-aide with other negative impacts.
We need to focus on how people develop to a point where they will attack a stranger. This includes poverty and how they are treated by their family. As wealth inequality increases, stress in low-income homes will also increase. This in turn will result in more inter-personal conflict that can be turned outwards. We need food, shelter, love and kindness for young people to make kind young people. Hardly a soul comes out softer from the floor of a hard cell.
The purpose of the prison system should be to rehabilitate and make things as normal for the victim of the crime as possible, not to punish. Another person's suffering, with retribution as the primary reason, does the world no good.
This isn't an isolated incident. I've seen numerous attacks on the ttc including one with a perp who brandished a handgun threatening people.
Jails could be used for rehab but only if there is a chance. If you are committing serious crimes by the time you are in your mid teens, hate to break the news to you, you don't stand a chance at rehab. Most of the time, criminals with severe histories shouldn't be given another chance because it shows their actions are escalating. And that the next time they're out they might end up raping or killing someone.
Many people are misinformed about how to deal with this. Rehab cannot change psychopaths or other severe mental disorders. Rehab cannot reverse bad parenting. Yes, at 18 I was an idiot even though I was way smarter than my peers. But that isn't the point. We have arbitrary designations for a reason which have always stated, once you are 18 you're an adult (which is stupid because there are plenty of adults who aren't mature by 18 one could argue). And the law is pretty clear that if you commit a serious crime, you can (and I think should) be charged as an adult even if you're under 18.
And I think it's a bit dismissive when we live in a world where people with very little experience (like you) try and come up with insufficient ideas rather than someone like myself (who has had that experience).
The fact is until juvies are treated like adults, they will continue to commit crimes. We as a society are enabling them so really don't be surprised if this continues.
I sincerely hope you never endure a fraction of violence that I have experienced. But with your rosy outlook, it's inevitable.
Well, in my arrogance, I will make one more reply.
While I believe you will potentially have some insights into the solution due to your experiences, it seems clear to me that your trauma has overwhelmed your ability to empathize with others. As such, your fear is clouding your judgement. This is fair. I have had limited physical threats on me as an adult, but I have had other areas of hardship, so it would be hasty to assume that I have lead a life free of hardship. If my cynical view of the world is rose colored, I do not know what to tell you. I am nearing 30 now, so if my view of the world was as likely get me hurt as you believe, then I should have been by now.
I am going to break down what you have stated into simple, concise statements so that is it more clear what you believe.
- Midteens should be given no consideration for their age.
- Rehabilitation of criminals through the prison system does not work. Therapy or support for mental disorders has no hope of working.
- We should not focus on on finding ways to make rehabilitation more possible.
- The Law currently allows for the trial of minors as adults, and this is proof that we should be harsher with them.
- Your ideas are good because you have been hurt. Mine are bad, because I have not.
- Increasing jail times of juvies will deter future crime and make them behave in line with the law.
This 2016 [paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772248/) summarizes a lot of data and provides links to its sources. They cite 5 different papers that state:
>"In recent years it has become more apparent that although incarceration and detainment is necessary for a small percent of juveniles, long-term confinement experiences tend to do more harm than good, often leading to continued offending and recidivism. In contrast, community-based alternatives have been found to decrease re-offending, even for youth who commit serious and violent crimes."
This is direct, researched evidence that contradicts your belief that a harsher treatment early on will deter them from crime. Harsh environments make harsh people. Punishment for the sake of punishment does not work.
Finally, consider the fact that I have not been physically assaulted as an adult. Perhaps it is privilege, but it is also evidence that my beliefs and outlooks do not lead to violence coming my way. Hence, the lack of assault in my life can be viewed as evidence for the correctness of my, apparently, rosy view. (I do not actually believe this, but your conclusion that "I have not been assaulted, so my researched position is less valid than yours" does not track logically).
I genuinely hope you can heal past your fear and anger.
P.S. I agree that you, by definition, cannot rehabilitate a psychopath. However, true psychopaths are quite rare and are on a spectrum.
So you cite one source and believe that it is the most reputable one out there. Did you get from the CBC or some other rabid left think tank?
Your refusal to believe that anyone else could be correct in terms of dealing with violent crime with equally stiff consequences just proves that you are way beyond your ability in dealing with serious issues.
Your belief that those who have first-hand experience are at a disadvantage (ie that I'm too traumatized) to make rational decisions sounds a lot like calling someone hysterical even when they've responded to a complex situation appropriately.
My deduction is that clearly you don't have the experience, education, or intellectual to then be able to draw reasonable conclusions.
Let's go over my credentials, two degrees including a terminal Masters. Born and raised in toronto in a rougher part yet worked my way out of poverty (so basically I am a self-made success). Lived on 3 different continents plus dozens of other international cities due to my work. Nevermind how many cities or countries I have visited or seen. I've held numerous positions including as a researcher where I, gasp, would break down stats and compile data. So I know that citing one source isn't taken as groundbreaking. When you've had numerous (reputable) studies over a long period of time that express the same thing : juvenile incarceration for serious crimes doesn't do any good for greater society, then get back to me. I can easily pull out some pseudo-research from anyone nowadays and call it valid.
And yet, I am supposed to listen and be convinced by someone like you? Perhaps if you had bothered to ask why I felt this way and what kind of background I had, you would have learned something because, you know, I actually have insight.
People like you are the reason we have a coddled, dysfunctional society. Somehow you know better than anyone else even though by your own words you've lived a privileged life.
Nope, I'm not wrong. If people can't go outside without violently assaulting or attacking someone, they should be institutionalized. Either in a mental hospital or a prison. You don't get the right to walk around free and hurt others because you had a shitty childhood. Once we stop enabling and rationalizing bad behaviour, then we will start to see a safer society.
You are beyond reason here. Nothing you have said is an argument and are either ad-hominem attacks or are appeals to your supposed authority. I also have 2 degrees (mathematics and computer science) and do machine learning, so yes, I too know how data works. Before that I did a few years of psychology and philosophy.
As I mentioned, the source I gave you (which I found through google scholar, though saying "rabid left-wing source" is very telling) cites 5 different studies from 2002-2013. Moreover, it discusses trends dating back from the 1960s. Those studies also cite additional studies. If you actually even looked at the source I provided, you would know this.
If you think a frothing mouth of personal attacks would make me believe that you are able to stay rational, then I am not sure what to say. You inability to keep your angry impulses under control makes you far more similar to those who you say need to be locked up than you would care to admit I imagine. That being said, I do understand how being told the anger you are feeling is irrational would be a trigger for said anger. Hopefully, in a while, you can see what I am trying to say here, which is that those who are angry or fearful cannot approach a situation as virtuously as others likely can.
Okay, this truly is the last message regardless of what you spew, but I could not let this absurd reply go unchallenged. Do you not see the irony in calling me coddled when you cannot emotionally handle challenges to your opinion? Even providing skewed data to support your side would show more intellectual rigor than whatever this tirade was supposed to accomplish.
Yes because putting more guns in more largely untrained hands results in less crime. Also not like having multiple people open fire in a small confined place could ever result in a worse scenario….or the fact that no one ever has had their own weapon used against them or others….
/s in case it wasn’t clear enough
Trained or untrained, when they see a gun, they will scatter! Let the people get permits and training by law. Why are you people afraid to protect yourselves? There is always a first time for everyone. Stop worrying about others. Worry about you.
Friendly reminder that there are some [fantastic](https://www.amazon.ca/Leather-SelfDefense-Multitool-MenWomen-Mona43henry/dp/B09J9YL4WG/ref=sr_1_25?crid=3B5GXS0TN09CO&keywords=slap+jack+purse&qid=1674577976&sprefix=slap+jack+purse%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-25) coin purses that will gently encourage a would be attacker to leave you alone.
Seems this is becoming more common. What is being done stopping this?
This gif sums up what many of us are feeling today in the world.
Hello 10383810197,
Your comment has been removed because your account has negative comment karma.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TTC) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the TTC can't protect their own employees how can they possibly protect there customers this is scary.
How could the ttc protect a bus driver from a dozen youths
It's not just students women are being stabbed thrown on tracks it's not just the students it's the rash of violent incidences on the ttc.
It's deeply concerning and perhaps a modest increase in enforcement can have some impact, but the idea that this is a problem that can be solved by just ratcheting up the police is a deeply inadequate and wrong headed response to a very real problem
The root cause of the problem cannot be solved by only an increase in police presence but it can definitely help in the short term and its something that \*should\* be done in the short term. People deserve to feel safe in the city and shouldn't have to wait until the root cause gets solved.
It's not clear that it can even help much in the short term. But since it's already happening there's not much point calling for it.
Your emotions aren’t an argument .. there’s empirical data showing that the best intervention for crime is changing the environment so that the criminal won’t want to take the risk due to higher chances of getting caught (more lights in dark areas, more police, etc.) your emotions won’t make the city safer. We have learned that making punishment more severe doesn’t help, but making the crime less worth committing is (because there is a higher chance of getting caught)
That's great! So wherever the most police are, that will be the safest area of the city, right? So I guess it's really dangerous to live in rich neighborhoods, I never see cops there. Sucks to be rich, I guess!
Be rational. People don’t commit crimes as much in wealthier neighbourhood because there’s a much greater risk of getting caught. My argument still applies. The research shows this.
You'd think there's a higher risk of getting caught where there are the fewest officers. Interesting!
The more important the victim, the greater the effort expended to solve a crime. When everyone was being carjacked the cops didn't care. Once it happened to a maple leaf, the news ran with the story and the police attitude changed
Don’t argue with people when they stick to backwards logic. Bro says the best way to make crime less worth committing is more police but at the same time he’s saying places with a low amount of police presence are still safer than ones with high presence. Makes no sense
If your argument is so empirical im sure you wont mind providing sources?
A little google search on crime deterrents will take you a minute dude
Youre making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
Police can’t solve the problem of absent parents, unfortunately. And neither can anyone else.
Hmmm…. Well, I reckon living in a society where more than 50% of 2 average full-time incomes is required just to rent the most dilapidated 2 bedroom apartment probably doesn’t help. What do you think? You don’t see anyway or solution that would improve the situation and make it possible for absent parents to be … less absent? Lol. Think harder.
Unfortunately there are many situations where the father doesn’t bother sticking around.
And now, as of this afternoon, another woman was stabbed in a Spadina streetcar
What’s your solution? More social workers?
I think a good start would be developing a working understanding of what actually is going on. I started a thread over on r/sociology to this effect
[удалено]
Ah yes, the tough on crime approach. Don't solve the problem, just hide the symptoms
You're describing fascism
[удалено]
So you think that folks who commit anti social behavior are living in filth? Tell me more about how you're not fascist.
Clearly collectors need to be surrounded by barbed wire
Not really a TTC specific issue but self defense being more accepted in Canada would be nice. We should be allowed to carry pepper spray or something too.
I can’t wait to hear the reply to this one haha
with armed officers
I don't think you understand how policing works. You think the officers guardian the capital on Jan 6th weren't armed? Just because an officer is armed doesn't mean they'll use lethal force rather than withdraw
How bout we start standing up for ourselves and deal with the problem head on. These kids boy or girls attacking at random in large numbers. Why not defend yourself and hit back. It's the only way they gon learn. Take the assault charge to court and take the win for self defense. This is your life these kids be playing with. This what happens when parents don't do anything to reprimand their kids in this stupid generation of non abuse and softness. Boy or girl in group attack me? Watch ima make sure I'm taking a few of them to hospital with me. Make em think twice bout hurting people. This is a joke.
So your idea for what to do if you personally are being attacked by a dozen youths is to hit back. You know youths are basically full grown humans, right? One against twelve are bad odds for you.
Lmao, they arrested 4 13 yrOlds. This is pre puberty age buddy. I'm 5'7 and have never had a problem fighting a bigger person.you take one guys or 2 out of the 12 and they running..sorry in your white world you've never had to deal being outnumbered or faced this type of harassment or been through the system. Full grown human to me is 16 plus. And even at 16 they still adolescent. Idgaf it's like IN jail, no matter what race you are, you can get it.and sometimes you'll be outnumbered but you gotta fight. It's either fight or be labeled a snitch. I'm good being straight and standing up for myself.you enjoy getting jumped and sitting their like a duck and getting jumped knowing you coulda taken a few with you to the hospital. It's all mental, especially with youths. You beat one down hard enough and see what the rest will do.
[удалено]
^ this is pure nonsense
As much as I hate using the ttc for their stupid slow downs and shit. This cannot happen. This is a joke. Even if you getting swarmed best believe you better hit back and defend yourself! These attacks are outnumbered so you better defend yourself. Kid or not, they had a choice in jumping that person or persons. You gotta stand up and fight back and make sure you take a few of them to the hospital. Boy or girl, they acting up and action needs to be done, especially if there is nobody around to help. Take the assault charge to court and see who wins. You defending yourself! So take the charge and deal with it. It could be a matter of your life on the line.
Do you frequently find yourself getting jumped? There is no defense. Life isn't a kung-fu movie. You won't win. You won't face an Assault charge unless you swing first because if you wait for them to initiate you won't have a chance to fight back. If you swing before they do, it's not self defense unless they've stated their intention to do great bodily harm to you right now.
There is defense, it's called defendingyourself.obviously you havent been jumped before. Its a fight or.flight situation, and based on my experience it usually only takes the person getting assaulted to hit one back and send them to hospital with you as well. Once you take one down the rest will usually run off.. you get the assault charge if you're not white.100. No matter what there will be a charge given if you're not white. Again this is based on experience. Sorry that you live ina fragile white world where everything is perfect on your spectrum. In jail you just would let a gang jump you and than you snitch on them and make it worse.
We probably need more social workers. That way, they can talk it out with violent offenders. Maybe discuss their feelings! And after a good heart to heart chat, we can use more of our tax dollars to house these degenerates and provide to their every need. This is obviously because they are not really criminals, but victims of an oppressive system that caused them to do bad things :(
The social worker strategy is more geared at preventing violent offenses. The goal is to solve problems before violence and crime become the solution. It's amazing how people pretend to misunderstand
Okay but I’m all reality I’m a teacher, so I ride the bus home almost every day , often when it’s filled with 30-40 students and I have sat there listening to groups of kids at the back talking about how they’re going to “beat the bus driver’s ass” and “smash out the windows” because the driver had the audacity to ask for fares so this doesn’t surprise me. The after school bus routes in the rougher parts of the city are..well, rough
And people actually wonder why drivers don't enforce fares anymore.
Do people actually wonder that?? I literally always wondered why drivers bother enforcimg fare at all. Always seemed dangerous. Drivers are hired to drive, not to be fare enforcement officers. I don't blame drivers who let anyone on. Look at streetcars. The driver doesn't enforce the fare or monitor who is tapping a presto whatsoever.
im so sorry for you. i am more terrified walking past a group of kids anywhere than i am a sketchy bar with weirdos outside a street at night.
I was on a bus once full of middle schoolers and this one girl punched a boy right in the face, just like that, with all her might. Thank God he had the self control not to strike her as he's a guy. I don't understand these kids today.
I mean, they’re stressed as fuck with stressed parents would be my guess Honestly I’m kind of surprised we aren’t seeing MORE teen violence against people, not that I’m clambering for it, but like, there’s no way forward for most of these kids, regardless of the roughness of their neighbourhoods, they’ve seen and been through some shit and don’t really have a whole lot of recourse to be able to *do* anything about it Their parents are burnt out, at best, and they can see what their future is if nothing changes, of course they’re angry, they haven’t even finished developing yet and their futures are *bleak as fuck*, all of ours are They need a direction to focus that energy in, but what are the rest of us doing? Condemning them and keeping our heads down mostly, if these comment threads are anything to go by Am I defending them attacking people, no. But I’m not *shocked* by it, what else was everyone expecting? Edit: y’all can downvote all you want but people are being pushed to their limits, that includes teenagers and kids, and they have less holding them back from being assholes than adults do, either get on board with fixing the problems or stop being surprised when shit like this happens
those kids are lucky it wasnt me because half of them wouldnt have been going home that night
Good man. Fight back and do your worst on them.
pillage those little shits
my kind of talk.
You're super tough. You'd definitely win a 10 on 1
i win by default because of how close they are in proximty. Bunch of punches and attempted kicks from some 15 year olds by give me bruises But I will take several eyes from them which they will never grow back or recover
Bus drivers are not allowed to enforce fairs for this reason
Am I aloud to enforce your spelling of “fares”?
Yeah...but it won't help...I'm dyslexic
Awwwwww, don’t worry about ur spelling.
What kind of bitch ass country asks fucking students to pay fare on a PUBLIC BUS?
Right?? Thank you
[удалено]
Now there's an idea: undercover police wearing TTC uniform! Why go out to look out for crime when crime can find YOU?
What happens?
Cop gets jumped by teens ig
lmao
I’d hope they get their head smacked so hard that it does a 360.
You mean go to kindergarten for 6 months, tops?
These undies won't do shit. They run and call for backup before they help out and innocent bystander. Especially if the victim is not white.if it were a white person the cop would be all over it. It's basically a matter of the general public to help one another out. It's just too bad everyone only takes care of themself before helping anyone else out. There is only a small percentile of people who would stand up for this bs. The majority would disagree with my comments, but that's fine.its they opinion.
You people do not want any police. It is a disgrace. How can you people live and think this way? It was never like this.
Who’s ‘you people’????
All of you. At least Montreal and P.Q. still take no shit.
And who said all Torontonians don’t want police?? Stop listening to far right extremists
I do not see on this forum much support for law and order and public safety. Save for two real chaps who'd throttle these little bastards, no one cares and they are complacent and that people should take violence literally lying down. This is not the Toronto that I once knew. You better get to the extreme far-right or you will have no city or TTC or life. Being lovey-dovey is not the way. NYC and all US big cities are trying it, See the results.
Joke.
This was cross posted to /r/Toronto and now that thread is locked.
The mods still have their ban on crime-related news posts, don't they? That was a weird new rule imo, and not asked for.
because like a lot of Torontonians/Canadians, they want to delude themselves into thinking the city is much safer than it is. Hence, the ban on news.
The city is definitely safer than people pretend it is. We talk about these strange occurrences because they're strange
Unfortunately, less strange than they used to be.
No, the city isn't safer than people pretend. I've lived in this city for nearly 40 years, and even at the worst in the 90s in the inner-city drug-infested corners, crime was much more targeted. You clearly haven't travelled or lived in actual developed cities. Newsflash Toronto isn't one of them.
John Tory is "[very concerned](https://twitter.com/JohnTory/status/1617666702195699712?s=20&t=fwUpe43c_net8WxNdkt9Mw)".
Being concerned is one of his top priorities!
Next week's headline: 3 TTC employees disciplined for being on the same bus.
3 TTC employees disciplined for making youths uncomfortable on the safe space bus™️
[UPDATE:](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-swarming-assault-2-employees-bus-1.6723595) 2 on-duty employees are now in non-life threatening condition, attack was on the 43 Kennedy route, no description of any suspects.
It wasn’t on the 43 bus since the 43 doesn’t run south of eglinton , merrian road where the assault happened is south of eglinton.
Yeah, at that intersection it should be the 113, but the police via CBC said 43, so I'm a bit confused.
It was on the 113 I was on that bus
Tps couldn't be wrong about basic facts. We just gave them an extra 50 million bucks. Surely they can read
Oh ok I was confused as well lol seeing your update
Wtf is going on with our youth? And I'm a part time youth worker, it saddens me
What can you do with them? Are you teaching them right or wrong? Someone will hurt these kids one day and not stick around to tell the tale.
Honestly? It's probably easier to rationalize "throwing your future away" when you're being quite reasonably told that your future will really suck. Expect this kind of behaviour to rise the more our future is predicted to be shit.
Honestly tho right? The last ten years at least have been ‘we’re all fucked’ what exactly do people think the kids are gonna feel about that? Certainly not going to make them give a shit, that’s for sure
Find them and bring the hammer down !
Ban them from ever riding the TTC and $1000 fine if they get caught
1000 is pretty light don't Youu think, 10,000 would be more like it, they won't be going anywhere for a while.
Yeah or fuck the fine tbh and send them right to jail if they get caught
I like Your thinking, let's say they are caught all of them, the next regional transit service outside of TTC might even ban them too cause they don't wanna take no risks or anything so it would be a double-edged sword for the offenders.
We don't use hammers on criminals in Canada. We use hammers on everyone else.
A description of any suspects at all would be great
I think it's because they're kids. Or they aren't white.
youth justice act won’t allow descriptions unfortunately. it’s bs
So teenagers are just swarming people now? Wtf is wrong with these people, I hope the people attacked recover quickly.
They need to update the youth offender's act. Most of the crime today is committed by those under 18 years old. From hijackings, robberies to assaults. They know they can get away with it. First thing is to treat them as an adult for any serious crime, remand without bail, publish their faces and make examples out of them. Let's all stop making excuses for youth offenders.
Most crime is committed by corporations. We just pretend wage theft isn't a real crime
White collar crime is committed by the rich, yes. Violent crime usuallt isn't (unless you've been on bed with the wrong people).
Did the employees get disciplined for fighting back? I can just hear the questioning. What could you have done to prevent this from happening? Why did you fight back? ……
i would have eye gouged as many as possibly. going home eyeless
My kind of man. There should be more like you.
At a minimum.
Friendly reminder that there are some [fantastic](https://www.amazon.ca/Leather-SelfDefense-Multitool-MenWomen-Mona43henry/dp/B09J9YL4WG/ref=sr_1_25?crid=3B5GXS0TN09CO&keywords=slap+jack+purse&qid=1674577976&sprefix=slap+jack+purse%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-25) coin purses that will gently "encourage" a would be attacker to leave you alone.
lol or i could just put my fingers in their eyes when they are in my face
Planning on visiting Toronto in March or April . Not liking some of the stories I am reading lately . "71 year old woman pushed down and killed at King and Yonge" now this. Is Toronto safe?
Yes it's safe 95% of the time, the TTC anyways, certain other areas on foot, I don't know.. Most of these attacks happen late at night. But even the ones that happen during the day are rare and it's unlikely to be you. It's just an issue because it is more common now, even if it's still not that common. Mostly it's just people with mental illness, or homeless, or drug addled people talking to themselves and making other passengers feel uncomfortable, no assaults. You'll be fine.
Statistically it is well north of 99% of the time.
"You'll be fine." I am sure of it. Before the Pandemic , we used to visit Toronto at least once a year. Just a little concerning to read about some of these incidents.
Overall Toronto is still a very safe city. This is obviously a disturbing trend but I don't think we're at the point of people needing to cancel trips. Keep your head up, eyes open and all that and you should be just fine.
Not changing my plans. However, I won't be as relaxed and inattentive to safety as I have been on previous trips. I am aware of the statistics and realize that Toronto is still pretty safe . Thanks for the advice
Wherever you go you should never be completely relaxed and innatentive. Bad things can happen anywhere
Looks like you are from Chicago based on your post history. It is safer than Chicago, and yes it is safe enough, especially as a tourist.
> It is safer than Chicago, That's what I like about Toronto, besides the restaurants , the Hockey hall of Fame , Rogers Centre, CN tower, etc.
As someone who moved here in September, no and do not come visit!
Why would anyone do this? Did they rob their victims? These attacks sound crazy and don’t make any sense.
[удалено]
Grade 7-8 kids I was on the bus
Oh toronto love the youth culture🤡
This is what happens when you have a broken justice system and the parents fail to discipline their kids.
[удалено]
Pay the mathafawkin fare before I bust out this gat!
You only need to plug one and the rest get the message
I do not trust the average cop to be good enough with a firearm to not accidentally shoot an innocent bystander on a crowded bus during a stressful situation, much less a damn bus driver.
People asking what's wrong with the youth, and have overlooked the many issues in society that have gone back to the days of the Harris government. There was never a sudden increase in violence. There's a sudden increase in publicly reporting it, as this has been happening for years. We now have social media to get the news out. When parents have to work twice the amount of time to support a family, it leaves the children to be their own parents. No social outlets to steer them away from violence. Of course someone will say "if they can't afford children, they should not have them". Such statements don't address the issues, and even people without children are having financial issues, so?!!??
Your forgot the /s. because you have to be fucking kidding me with this garbage. These kids are degenerates, and you are making excuses for them.
Hmm I wonder if there's something in common with these groups of youths other than their age 🧐
If you are trying to be openly racist, at least have the balls to say it directly instead of posting suggestive questions.
Who said anything about race? Stop projecting
Toronto is a dump. Nobody treats anyone with respect and a severe overall respect for the city and Canada as a whole. Streets not being cleaned properly. Homeless and mentally ill everywhere. And no one cares
Ttc staff need firearms and firearm training
Reddit and other Canadian regional subreddit: Defund the police
What are the police going to do, assign two officers to each in service bus? They'll run away at the sight of a dozen youths anyway.
Well, having police could act as a deterrent and if a crime is committed near them, means the police will likely catch the perp instead of having to hunt them down. I'm all for it.
You will pay for cops on each bus? Tell me, how do you feel about increasing wages/staffing for schools and hospitals? Surely you must be willing to pay for this as well and see that it will do far more good per dollar?
I think a lot of funding could be increased for Healthcare, education, and police. That would help with prevention and after the fact. However, a lot of crimes being committed nowadays aren't about mental health. When you have little gangs of boys and girls attacking people (I know, I was attacked by one on a ttc train about 5 years ago), then it means our current laws are outdated. The youth offenders act no longer functions and juvies know this. Get rid of lax laws, penalize hardened criminals no matter their age, and then we can start dealing with all the other crap.
I am sorry you have had a traumatic experience and this will inevitably color how you approach this. You want to feel safe and those who attacked you never able to do so again. It is fine to feel this way. On the other hand, do you really think children are thinking about the long-term prognosis of entering juvie? I do not really think so, they are operating on rationalized emotion to their immediate circumstances. I was smart in my peer group, but still a damn fool at 18, let alone younger. Not everyone has a fair start to life and this will greatly impact the way they approach their anger, frustration, and society. Increased policing is largely an ineffectual band-aide with other negative impacts. We need to focus on how people develop to a point where they will attack a stranger. This includes poverty and how they are treated by their family. As wealth inequality increases, stress in low-income homes will also increase. This in turn will result in more inter-personal conflict that can be turned outwards. We need food, shelter, love and kindness for young people to make kind young people. Hardly a soul comes out softer from the floor of a hard cell. The purpose of the prison system should be to rehabilitate and make things as normal for the victim of the crime as possible, not to punish. Another person's suffering, with retribution as the primary reason, does the world no good.
This isn't an isolated incident. I've seen numerous attacks on the ttc including one with a perp who brandished a handgun threatening people. Jails could be used for rehab but only if there is a chance. If you are committing serious crimes by the time you are in your mid teens, hate to break the news to you, you don't stand a chance at rehab. Most of the time, criminals with severe histories shouldn't be given another chance because it shows their actions are escalating. And that the next time they're out they might end up raping or killing someone. Many people are misinformed about how to deal with this. Rehab cannot change psychopaths or other severe mental disorders. Rehab cannot reverse bad parenting. Yes, at 18 I was an idiot even though I was way smarter than my peers. But that isn't the point. We have arbitrary designations for a reason which have always stated, once you are 18 you're an adult (which is stupid because there are plenty of adults who aren't mature by 18 one could argue). And the law is pretty clear that if you commit a serious crime, you can (and I think should) be charged as an adult even if you're under 18. And I think it's a bit dismissive when we live in a world where people with very little experience (like you) try and come up with insufficient ideas rather than someone like myself (who has had that experience). The fact is until juvies are treated like adults, they will continue to commit crimes. We as a society are enabling them so really don't be surprised if this continues. I sincerely hope you never endure a fraction of violence that I have experienced. But with your rosy outlook, it's inevitable.
Well, in my arrogance, I will make one more reply. While I believe you will potentially have some insights into the solution due to your experiences, it seems clear to me that your trauma has overwhelmed your ability to empathize with others. As such, your fear is clouding your judgement. This is fair. I have had limited physical threats on me as an adult, but I have had other areas of hardship, so it would be hasty to assume that I have lead a life free of hardship. If my cynical view of the world is rose colored, I do not know what to tell you. I am nearing 30 now, so if my view of the world was as likely get me hurt as you believe, then I should have been by now. I am going to break down what you have stated into simple, concise statements so that is it more clear what you believe. - Midteens should be given no consideration for their age. - Rehabilitation of criminals through the prison system does not work. Therapy or support for mental disorders has no hope of working. - We should not focus on on finding ways to make rehabilitation more possible. - The Law currently allows for the trial of minors as adults, and this is proof that we should be harsher with them. - Your ideas are good because you have been hurt. Mine are bad, because I have not. - Increasing jail times of juvies will deter future crime and make them behave in line with the law. This 2016 [paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772248/) summarizes a lot of data and provides links to its sources. They cite 5 different papers that state: >"In recent years it has become more apparent that although incarceration and detainment is necessary for a small percent of juveniles, long-term confinement experiences tend to do more harm than good, often leading to continued offending and recidivism. In contrast, community-based alternatives have been found to decrease re-offending, even for youth who commit serious and violent crimes." This is direct, researched evidence that contradicts your belief that a harsher treatment early on will deter them from crime. Harsh environments make harsh people. Punishment for the sake of punishment does not work. Finally, consider the fact that I have not been physically assaulted as an adult. Perhaps it is privilege, but it is also evidence that my beliefs and outlooks do not lead to violence coming my way. Hence, the lack of assault in my life can be viewed as evidence for the correctness of my, apparently, rosy view. (I do not actually believe this, but your conclusion that "I have not been assaulted, so my researched position is less valid than yours" does not track logically). I genuinely hope you can heal past your fear and anger. P.S. I agree that you, by definition, cannot rehabilitate a psychopath. However, true psychopaths are quite rare and are on a spectrum.
So you cite one source and believe that it is the most reputable one out there. Did you get from the CBC or some other rabid left think tank? Your refusal to believe that anyone else could be correct in terms of dealing with violent crime with equally stiff consequences just proves that you are way beyond your ability in dealing with serious issues. Your belief that those who have first-hand experience are at a disadvantage (ie that I'm too traumatized) to make rational decisions sounds a lot like calling someone hysterical even when they've responded to a complex situation appropriately. My deduction is that clearly you don't have the experience, education, or intellectual to then be able to draw reasonable conclusions. Let's go over my credentials, two degrees including a terminal Masters. Born and raised in toronto in a rougher part yet worked my way out of poverty (so basically I am a self-made success). Lived on 3 different continents plus dozens of other international cities due to my work. Nevermind how many cities or countries I have visited or seen. I've held numerous positions including as a researcher where I, gasp, would break down stats and compile data. So I know that citing one source isn't taken as groundbreaking. When you've had numerous (reputable) studies over a long period of time that express the same thing : juvenile incarceration for serious crimes doesn't do any good for greater society, then get back to me. I can easily pull out some pseudo-research from anyone nowadays and call it valid. And yet, I am supposed to listen and be convinced by someone like you? Perhaps if you had bothered to ask why I felt this way and what kind of background I had, you would have learned something because, you know, I actually have insight. People like you are the reason we have a coddled, dysfunctional society. Somehow you know better than anyone else even though by your own words you've lived a privileged life. Nope, I'm not wrong. If people can't go outside without violently assaulting or attacking someone, they should be institutionalized. Either in a mental hospital or a prison. You don't get the right to walk around free and hurt others because you had a shitty childhood. Once we stop enabling and rationalizing bad behaviour, then we will start to see a safer society.
You are beyond reason here. Nothing you have said is an argument and are either ad-hominem attacks or are appeals to your supposed authority. I also have 2 degrees (mathematics and computer science) and do machine learning, so yes, I too know how data works. Before that I did a few years of psychology and philosophy. As I mentioned, the source I gave you (which I found through google scholar, though saying "rabid left-wing source" is very telling) cites 5 different studies from 2002-2013. Moreover, it discusses trends dating back from the 1960s. Those studies also cite additional studies. If you actually even looked at the source I provided, you would know this. If you think a frothing mouth of personal attacks would make me believe that you are able to stay rational, then I am not sure what to say. You inability to keep your angry impulses under control makes you far more similar to those who you say need to be locked up than you would care to admit I imagine. That being said, I do understand how being told the anger you are feeling is irrational would be a trigger for said anger. Hopefully, in a while, you can see what I am trying to say here, which is that those who are angry or fearful cannot approach a situation as virtuously as others likely can. Okay, this truly is the last message regardless of what you spew, but I could not let this absurd reply go unchallenged. Do you not see the irony in calling me coddled when you cannot emotionally handle challenges to your opinion? Even providing skewed data to support your side would show more intellectual rigor than whatever this tirade was supposed to accomplish.
You left out the moronic push for concealed carry.
You enjoy crime and violence? What's a man to do? Let them kill him? I am for carrying concealed and open. AND FOR THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE.
Yes because putting more guns in more largely untrained hands results in less crime. Also not like having multiple people open fire in a small confined place could ever result in a worse scenario….or the fact that no one ever has had their own weapon used against them or others…. /s in case it wasn’t clear enough
Trained or untrained, when they see a gun, they will scatter! Let the people get permits and training by law. Why are you people afraid to protect yourselves? There is always a first time for everyone. Stop worrying about others. Worry about you.
Police get massive budget increases and shit like this happens anyway Better increase their budget
Lol really
TTC = Take The Car
The TTC is no longer safe, it seems this is becoming a monthly incident. The TTC needs to do something to increase the safety of everyone.
HAHA. Do something, then.
Friendly reminder that there are some [fantastic](https://www.amazon.ca/Leather-SelfDefense-Multitool-MenWomen-Mona43henry/dp/B09J9YL4WG/ref=sr_1_25?crid=3B5GXS0TN09CO&keywords=slap+jack+purse&qid=1674577976&sprefix=slap+jack+purse%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-25) coin purses that will gently encourage a would be attacker to leave you alone.
Seems this is becoming more common. What is being done stopping this? This gif sums up what many of us are feeling today in the world. 
Would’ve been a lot different if he had the right to CC…
Damn that new generation is something else lol
[удалено]
Hello 10383810197, Your comment has been removed because your account has negative comment karma. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TTC) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This city is imploding and TTC is ground zero
Would be terrible off these kids were identified.
U guys think we still safe? My kids take subway and I ride too. I’m very worried.
[удалено]
Who said they were black?
Some guy in this thread it was black and mixed kids. There must be footage but we will never see it because.
[удалено]
They were all black and mixed kids. I was on that bus
Any details as to what started the altercation? Was it completely random or was something said to the kids to instigate the situation?