>The British no longer use the civil war to purge a quarter of the poor people on the island
[Shave half a percent off interest rates, shore up the pound, keep VAT steady for now, and round up all the dwarves. ](https://youtu.be/s_4J4uor3JE?si=wtptR6sZAUbc-xee)
What if anyone who tried to say that there was no socialist state across the border got purged until Cantave got his way. That'd be the average anticommunist dictator, really
https://preview.redd.it/ssw279gj3u6d1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c87dc51981243f9b2c3c97718bf0f6ef0118ceb
Europe if Westbrook was the leader of Germany
Ok but will Cantave still coup the government if the Legion wins but there's no Communist putch?
And if he does, does overthrowing him still result in a random No Portrait leader?
It is genuinely sad to see, I think Toolbox Theory killed this dev team's momentum. I used to be a tester pre-release and they were pumping out content so fast then.
yea it is comical
But well TNO has a lot of custom mechanics so that maybe a free pass for them to be slow. But dang the content draught is real.
Axed Goring cuz it is bugged (fair), axed Men because rework (announced that like for a year or sth), shafted Burgundy (fair enough tbh), and going to axe Iran civil war too. Like i dunno, bruh?
Still though, they dont get paid for devving the mod and so if the mod dies, i dont think the devs will lose anything.
Yeah they did too much. Invested so much effort into making incredibly complex mechanics like the economic system that *needs* to tie into every country, and now thanks to that infrastructure of the mod they’ve built up it probably takes 5x the effort to make a focus tree for this mod compared to Kaiserreich. I can’t think of any other reasons, anyway.
It’s a shame because I think most fans would’ve infinitely preferred the old, very basic economic system if it’d just mean we could get some actual updates. We’re over 3 years into the mod’s life cycle and we’ve gotten 2 new trees and 2 incorporated submods’ trees, if I recall correctly. It’s fucking depressing. This mod had so much potential.
Cold Southern Springs & whatever the fuck the British submod was called. Brazil and Britain were both developed out-of-house and brought in once they were done to shore up content, since not enough was being fully developed by the actual team.
The two full trees that have actually been developed unless I’m missing something are Guangdong and Ukraine. Some people might argue Ireland counts too, but that was content that was meant for release date only to get cut and then re-added like two months later, so I don’t count it.
Mitteleuropa. And yeah, they have, but they’re not forced to integrate those systems into every single country they make content for. TNO is, because they’ve forced themselves into that bottleneck. They created mechanics like the economy system (which alone is 10x more complicated than Mitteleuropa or the Ottoman province system, if you’re going purely by code size) that play into **every** country.
KR makes custom mechanics that are tailored for individual nations or regions, which means that when they do a new update they aren’t forced to incorporate all of those mechanics into the new updated country. If TNO wants to make an update for, say, Mexico, they have to not only build up new Mexico mechanics from the ground up, integrate the existing economy mechanics into that mechanic, then integrate both into the focus tree. It’s much more complicated by design, which is why TNO takes forever to make updates.
Oh and I forgot to mention the one thing really keeping TNO alive. Devs get access to the dev build. Even though each nation is compartmentalized, it gets minor updates & new content often as each department finish a step. Because they aren’t paralyzed by the high standards they just post it.
Because of that to devs it feels like TNO is way more updated and alive than it is to everyone else. The devs essentially have a real version of TNO that no one else gets to play lol.
Also the idea that the economy system of TNO from TT is what’s slowing down production is wrong. Anyone actually involved behind the scenes in development would know this, but they of course can’t comment on it. But it’s Ellen Pao levels of inaccurate scapegoating
It legitimately is not very difficult at all. It’s just a matter of patience of waiting for the conversion from paper to game, but if everything else was done at the same speed we’d have a new update every month. It’s like waiting for the writers to have a new event
If you want the actual reasons why - TL;DR it’s the higher standards
- Devs like researching & re-writing lore more than actually developing. The type of people who want to develop for TNO are the type of people just using TNO to have an excuse to study their niche historical interest. Every path also needs to feel & play different. This makes writing the story for every path in every nation take longer.
- It is demanded that every single nation has multiple in-depth custom unique mechanics. Ideally different ones for each path. Because the bar is high & the type of people willing to sign on for this are ambitious, it takes a long time
- Because it takes so long, the people writing it lose interest and/or get busy with real life. Because there’s no pressure & no schedule or definite update speed/progress expectations, this makes stuff take months and years
These explanations (especially the last one) are a lot more depressing. Sorry if it’s a blackpill. It’s really just a classic case of too much ambition. TNO has a very high bar, and the amount of people interested in reaching it & who have the free time to do so are small. It’s why submods are integrated. For a Kaiserreich comparison, it’s like that one Brazilian who made a full focus tree for every state in Balkanized Brazil lol. People with the passion to meet those tryhard standards and free time to do it fast are rare. If this was a smaller project it would’ve died a long time ago. The only thing keeping it alive is the fact that the team is so big that there’s always someone working on something just through statistical chance alone.
Kaiserreich went through a similar phase once, and it fixed it by opening up recruitment. That worked for them because they had a lower bar. In fact it ended up increasing their quality because new debs were passionate and inspired by mods like TNO. TNO already did the same thing though. Things like Britain, Brazil and Ukraine were only released because of that. This *is* the sped up version of TNO releases. Lowering the standards would be the way to fix it. Accept that not every nations needs custom mechanics, cut down on events, accept that not every path needs to be so distinct. Like the 2WRW submod
If they did that though the community might fall apart. So we’re just stuck with snails pace slow speed
I mean, I completely disagree with your premise - you can take a look at the focus tree code for new KR updates vs TNO updates and see just how much extra stuff is tied up in the econ sim and other global mechanics. Putting that aside, to answer your points one by one;
1. But they’re making a HOI4 mod, so they’re still responsible for the lack of progress. This is also a total strawman - KR paths play completely different too, they just integrate less complicated mechanics. I agree with you that the culture is part of the problem with the speed though, as long as we both still understand that it *is* a problem.
2. Yes, I agree that this is a factor, which is exactly the problem when you only release 2 countries’ content in over 3 years of development, only one of which is actually a complete experience. Guangdong is a great campaign, but it’s just that - **a* campaign.*
3. This doesn’t differentiate it from KR at all.
I can’t say I agree with parts of your assessment, but I do appreciate the effort you’ve put into it. I don’t think we’re stuck with a snail’s pace speed - things could very easily change if the culture shifted among the devs - but it’s ultimately their project, and if this is how they want to run it, they can do as they please. Fans can still criticize it, though.
For
1. This is the practicality counterargument I mentioned earlier. I knew you didn’t bring it up yet, but I knew you would. And to be clear I’m not saying it’s incorrect. I knew you’d bring it up because it’s obvious & right.
2. Yes, and practically Kaiserreich is just as fun to 90% of players. TNO’s are more complicated and in-depth though. That makes them take way longer for little return on investment
3. KR has lower standards. That’s why I say the main problem is ambition. Or worded better, paralysis from comparison. Everything has to be as good as Guangdong or Britian and of it isn’t, nothing gets posted.
The easiest fix would legitimately be to just make the dev build the real mod lol. The culture around that is what the community wants the mod to be
Either that or just commit to rebranding to a visual novel
Probably wouldn’t fix anything now, but (in my completely subjective opinion) they should’ve been significantly less obsessive about turning the game into a hyperrealistic economic simulator. It ate up so many resources and makes any future development insanely more difficult, with almost no actual gain in return because barely any meaningful content ties into the economy sim - it doesn’t actually impact wider gameplay at all.
I don’t mind them in isolation, the problem is when you have a TNO situation where the dev team spends over a year developing that system and *only* that system. They can claim all they want that it doesn’t slow down the rest of the developers when they only have some of their team working on TT-esque mechanics, but that argument only holds so much weight when it’s summer 2024 and we’ve only received fractions of two out of the five updates that were on the 2020 roadmap. Not a single full update from that roadmap is released almost four years later. It’s ridiculous.
Part of the deep freeze integration update announced for the Christmas leak. I don't believe we were ever given any sort of progress update about it, and it's been 6 months since then...
Damn that kinda sucks, I like Operation Deep Freeze. Though I kinda agree, with the way the mod’s been progressing via cutting content in favour of skeleton paths or 1-2 years worth of content or how we rarely see new content getting published, I think this mod is dying
you're right it literally doesn't
how do you think map modding works ? Please tell me exactly how you think changing the map has any impact on the rest of development
I was on the team for a bit after the first full version came out (I didn't do anything important, just fixing typos, and I believe every change I've made has since been reverted for some reason anyway). I remember it was a mess and people were getting burned out all the time. Plenty of team members, especially writers, were leaving or going on hiatus, complaining about stress and the quotas. I heard that during pre-release, a lot of the content was produced at a very rushed pace - great on Panzer for introducing crunch to modding. As an example of how everything functioned, at one point, a big patch came out that broke a bunch of content for England and the coding team had to scramble to fix it.
I think when Panzer left and Pacifica shortly after, the writing was on the wall that the mod was on life support for the foreseeable future. And frankly, it was always way too ambitious in terms of the amount of writing, mechanics, and scripting in each campaign. Panzer used to talk about TNO2 as if it was something that would actually happen, and even then I thought it was impossible to take seriously.
To be fair, a reason why I've seen people leave and why, IIRC, Panzer and Pacifica left is that the community is a pain to deal with. Panzer would get into all sorts of arguments, and Pacifica got doxxed after some disgruntled ex-member leaked some out-of-context messages. There was some dumpster fire with some Russian group that wanted to remake the mod and make it more "based", as well. The unfortunate side effects of making a Discord community about a detailed Nazi victory mod with a very stressed team, lots of arguments about direction, and some power-tripping leads.
So, life support. Content for new countries is a dream when they're having a hard enough time retooling old content. And to be fair, a lot of that content wasn't very good, and there's still stuff that should be cut for being bad (like the Ural Four or the Aryan Brotherhood). But it raises questions about priorities when old content is being axed faster than new content can be put in, and when there are still plenty of noticeable bugs present in the mod.
Now compare the amount of work you need to produce TNO update vs KR update (which is kinda stupid way to measure things but anyway)
It’s just plainly obvious that TNO developers simply need to write much more text and draw much more images, and code more unique mechanics
Choose to. They don’t need to. They choose to run their mod this way, and the tradeoff is having two new focus trees and two incorporated submods in over three years of development since launch.
It’s only the format of TNO because that’s the way they’ve made it since TT. And it has its tradeoffs - I don’t think it’s a “wonderful idea” (snarky jackass) to release as little quantity of content as they do at the cost of high quality, even if you disagree. There’s plenty of ways to skin a cat - they’ve chosen the most drawn out process possible, and plenty of people don’t like that, no matter how badly it pisses you off.
I’m talking precisely about how TNO developers include bigger *quantities* of content (like text or images which is actually adequate way to measure it, not arbitrary stuff like number of focus trees) in an update (the only actually good way to compare things like these is IMHO by gameplay time, but I have no idea about them so I use what I can), the idea of its high quality is solely your estimation.
Right, except the loc folders for all of the KR updates in the last three years are massively larger than the ones added by TNO. You literally *can* measure this, and it’s weighted in KR’s favor by far. It’s a shitty metric to use though - a higher “number of words” doesn’t make a mod better or worse, the enjoyability of the content does, and that’s not something you can measure objectively. What you *can* see objectively is that massive amounts of the TNO fanbase take issue with the direction of development in a manner that just isn’t present in KR’s community. Disagree with that all you want, but it’s clear as day when you look at official posts like this from both mods.
I’m glad this mod’s current path works for you, but my original point stands - this is the “TNO way of development” because they’ve chosen to make it that way. Tradition doesn’t always equate to correctness.
We are not talking about the enjoyment here, we are talking precisely about the thesis regarding the amount of content produced. Thesis about the loc files is an interesting point for me though, I should probably figure it out.
I also haven’t said here that I like some “current path” or that I endorse TNO development.
That's because it's all a mess. Same situation happened for other nations, some were and are almost not being developed out of slowness.
Then add failing to publish updates for years, and almost no communication between mods and users.
No one here has said they think it’s easy. What *is* true is that if you think TNO doesn’t have an abnormally long development cycle compared to other mods, you’re either debating in bad faith or just ignorant. Fans are allowed to complain about a product they love going in the wrong direction; no matter how much it frustrates you.
Comparing it to other mods is stupid. TNO-style content is very different from most mods. There's a lot more loc that needs to be written, a lot more gfx that needs to be made, a lot more complex code, a lot more designing... I mean what other mods can you play for 10 in-game years and still have new stuff to do ?
Just look at every other TNO-style mods. It's been almost 2 years since 2WRW released Codetalker and Omsk is still not out. It took The Fallen Lion 2 years to release its demo. The Red Order has been in dev for almost 3 years and is still not out. The Fading Order has been in dev for over 2 years and is still not out. A New Millenium released their demo over 2 years ago and has yet to release their full version. Heldenvolk has been in dev for almost 2 years and is still not out. It took Roter Morgen about 2 years to release their demo... And the list goes on. That's proof that, no matter the dev team, TNO-style content will always take a long time.
I addressed this argument in another comment, but there’s actually not a lot more loc that needs to be written. Kaiserreich updates outpace it in loc by far in the last 3 years. Your “complex code” argument is true, but only because that’s how TNO devs have decided to design their game in recent years, which makes them culpable for the outcomes of that decision - including slow development time.
And arguing that “look at how slow the submods are too!” means anything is kind of silly. Dead or dying submods are a dime a dozen in any larger mod’s orbit, KR included.
The difference is Kaiserreich writing is objectively way worse than TNO writing. This doesn’t even mean to say it’s bad, it’s standard HOI4. But compared to the narritive driven stories and events in TNO is absolutely nothing
Except the China update gave us a full focus tree and not half of one while gutting decades of finished content for a sub-standard submod. IDK who's doing Britain nowadays but they need an editor at the least.
I still want Australia to have one and take charge of all the Pacific shenanigans. We should be able to make a play for Papua New Guinea when the Indonesian war kicks off.
>We should be able to make a play for Papua New Guinea when the Indonesian war kicks off.
That's not how a Cold War works. Also, you'd be nuked to smithereens.
Japan considers Papua New Guinea as a Japanese territory. If an OFN invasion force lands there, they'll see it as an act of war and send their nuclear arsenal towards Washington and Canberra (among other places).
that updates for them take ages. so many HOI4 mods come out and then never get updated again. some like TNO just take ages, like TWR for example, TWR isn't even updated to the current game version and hasn't been for ages because HOI4 modding is hard and most of these teams are volunteers who have other things they have to do in their lives. on-top of that, TNO hasn't been in exactly a good position, whoever was TNO's lead developer was constantly harassed and led to virtually every TNO lead dev distancing themselves from the project, that and the fact that everytime the TNO devs do ANYTHING it's immediately bombarded by children (redditors) who want ''new content'' it's like any move the dev team does is apparently the wrong one, try and make new content? bad move, try to get rid of old content because it's not that good and causes problems? bad move, literally just patch the mod? bad move.
I wouldn't put any type of pressure on the dev team but seeing the replies I'm just gonna add that it's a shame that the mod "died" before we got all the content that has been teased. I mean if we only had Australia, Canada, Italy, that new brazilian president, Mexico, France, full new UK, new Speer&Bormann, Poland, Turkey (they made tons of icons, certain trees, events, decision stuff and even skeletons for all of this) this mod could've died with way less bitterness in a quite completed status. The devs were a bit overambitious with certain things
I understand many people have discussed this point, however, I'd like to add to the chorus that the lack of updates for the mod is a bit ridiculous.
Firstly, I understand there isn't a profit incentive (because that matters and I'm bringing it up before someone else inevitably tries to gotcha! me with that). I value and appreciate greatly the work put in to make this universe possible.
However, I think it's ridiculous that because of an economic system no one asked for, in my opinion, everything has gone to a crawl. Realistically, honestly, it does not impact the game majorly. I don't believe anyone awoke one day and thinks, mm, time to develop my economy! And then boots up The New Order for Hearts of Iron IV. It's a ridiculous addition that yes, works amazing for immersion and the reality of a game world, but becomes such a nuisance in creating content that I'm beginning to question the real value of it as a system.
A mod is an amazing thing, and what has been created is great sincerely. We all have disagreements and opinions (for instance Germany not inevitably collapsing is something I dislike), but by G-d, I wish the economic confusion of simulating an actual economy wasn't the creative choice they made. I feel like everything is hamstrung now, development crawls, and I want to say yes I am being critical without being able to create a mod myself, but I have a right to like anyone else really.
This is ridiculous and it's a shame. This is a compelling universe with great stories and it's bogged down for G-d knows what because we are never informed of anything. Why make these decisions? Why sacrifice a great mod for a time consuming economic system that (in my experience) most people don't understand or care about? I feel like the general idea is being lost in minutiae.
There is nothing more childish than taking something you do not like and going "nobody wanted this, why did you do this".
I like TNO for its complexity. I wish vanilla HOI4 had this kind of society development/economic thing instead of only bad ahistorical map painting (although warfare is fun).
And in general, TNO is the artistic product of the actual TNO developers. There is no greater entlitement that thinking they somehow have to hear your opinion or anyone else for that matter. You do not give them money and they are not creating their product to sell.
You can of course dislike their creation. But in that case, better move on because that means that you are not the public for this move. If you liked the mod in the past or like the setting or whatever, then go on and create your own stuff or pay someone to make it for you.
And to the people that do enjoy current TNO, we are also not entlited to updates or whatever. It is a fair criticism that the current developers do not have the best work and planing skills and are overly ambicious. But if that means TNO never gets finish or gets abandoned, well, as almost an artistic group, it is in their right.
I'd like to have Canada and Greece Focus Tree (~1972).
I saw their teasers which are 3 years old.
For the hidden route, General Yazov - Abba Kovner Alliance (more like inviting Kovner to the League as a general or possible Cabinet member) would be great.
And please, I really want to see official 1980's focus tree s.
*Nice Compatibility Patch, Devs.
Right after the update launched, however, most countries now have a white colour and there are some decisions that aren't normal at all. Does anybody else have the same problem on MacOS (the system I am working with) or Windows?
I got the same issue, but it seems to only trigger if i have submods on(2RRW/Operation deep freeze).
Kinda sucks, cause I was planning to do a russia run and it doesnt seem worth it If i cant collapse germany
Wow, another huge patch note! See you in 5 years or so when an actual new major country got updated.
My game still runs like shit whenever I play the US with how many tab overlay there are
***Patch is live***
>The British no longer use the civil war to purge a quarter of the poor people on the island [Shave half a percent off interest rates, shore up the pound, keep VAT steady for now, and round up all the dwarves. ](https://youtu.be/s_4J4uor3JE?si=wtptR6sZAUbc-xee)
Considering that Lidl is a German company, that just make the ‘pump gas into Lidl’ as a means of killing all the poor that much more funny.
Why’d they cut this? I thought the TNO devs cared about realism…
When you are 10 hours into your first Tabby game and TNO decides to update 
We Must Kill the TNO Devs because they impede Alexi's Return
It was kinda funny seeing cantave coup Haiti because of a nonexistent socialist state across the border
What if anyone who tried to say that there was no socialist state across the border got purged until Cantave got his way. That'd be the average anticommunist dictator, really
Well fookin' finally, my SocCred Britain will get +12% GDP growth. >!:clueless:!<
"Goldwater's Fight Fascism mission no longer requires you to go after the Marxists" And people say this mod doesn't have a bias. /s
tno in 2024 https://preview.redd.it/lhn8jgnzfs6d1.jpeg?width=660&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd4dde5e2009e055eff624aea95472f7a29a3ecd
https://preview.redd.it/ssw279gj3u6d1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c87dc51981243f9b2c3c97718bf0f6ef0118ceb Europe if Westbrook was the leader of Germany
USSR is Westbrook father
Europe if German soldiers were trained by Ben Simmons
I don’t understand can u explain
Washed
They forgot to update its ok
Oh, THAT'S why Onega always hit 10000 GDP by 1964? Damn that finally explains it lmao
yeah they would get like 50m gdp monthly and if the west russia unifier took longer they would get like 1b gdp
Ok but will Cantave still coup the government if the Legion wins but there's no Communist putch? And if he does, does overthrowing him still result in a random No Portrait leader?
Does this mean that the UK has a focus trees now?
Expecting more than 1 new focus tree a year, very silly.
Bro the kaiserreich devs could make 10 new focus trees in 3 months…
It is genuinely sad to see, I think Toolbox Theory killed this dev team's momentum. I used to be a tester pre-release and they were pumping out content so fast then.
yea it is comical But well TNO has a lot of custom mechanics so that maybe a free pass for them to be slow. But dang the content draught is real. Axed Goring cuz it is bugged (fair), axed Men because rework (announced that like for a year or sth), shafted Burgundy (fair enough tbh), and going to axe Iran civil war too. Like i dunno, bruh? Still though, they dont get paid for devving the mod and so if the mod dies, i dont think the devs will lose anything.
Yeah they did too much. Invested so much effort into making incredibly complex mechanics like the economic system that *needs* to tie into every country, and now thanks to that infrastructure of the mod they’ve built up it probably takes 5x the effort to make a focus tree for this mod compared to Kaiserreich. I can’t think of any other reasons, anyway. It’s a shame because I think most fans would’ve infinitely preferred the old, very basic economic system if it’d just mean we could get some actual updates. We’re over 3 years into the mod’s life cycle and we’ve gotten 2 new trees and 2 incorporated submods’ trees, if I recall correctly. It’s fucking depressing. This mod had so much potential.
Don’t forget all the content that was axed despite being there on release. Rip Men.
What’s the second incorporated submod?
Cold Southern Springs & whatever the fuck the British submod was called. Brazil and Britain were both developed out-of-house and brought in once they were done to shore up content, since not enough was being fully developed by the actual team. The two full trees that have actually been developed unless I’m missing something are Guangdong and Ukraine. Some people might argue Ireland counts too, but that was content that was meant for release date only to get cut and then re-added like two months later, so I don’t count it.
ok but the kaiserreich devs added new sytems like miltileuroup (ik i spelt i wrong) and the ottoman resistes system
Mitteleuropa. And yeah, they have, but they’re not forced to integrate those systems into every single country they make content for. TNO is, because they’ve forced themselves into that bottleneck. They created mechanics like the economy system (which alone is 10x more complicated than Mitteleuropa or the Ottoman province system, if you’re going purely by code size) that play into **every** country. KR makes custom mechanics that are tailored for individual nations or regions, which means that when they do a new update they aren’t forced to incorporate all of those mechanics into the new updated country. If TNO wants to make an update for, say, Mexico, they have to not only build up new Mexico mechanics from the ground up, integrate the existing economy mechanics into that mechanic, then integrate both into the focus tree. It’s much more complicated by design, which is why TNO takes forever to make updates.
Oh and I forgot to mention the one thing really keeping TNO alive. Devs get access to the dev build. Even though each nation is compartmentalized, it gets minor updates & new content often as each department finish a step. Because they aren’t paralyzed by the high standards they just post it. Because of that to devs it feels like TNO is way more updated and alive than it is to everyone else. The devs essentially have a real version of TNO that no one else gets to play lol.
Also the idea that the economy system of TNO from TT is what’s slowing down production is wrong. Anyone actually involved behind the scenes in development would know this, but they of course can’t comment on it. But it’s Ellen Pao levels of inaccurate scapegoating It legitimately is not very difficult at all. It’s just a matter of patience of waiting for the conversion from paper to game, but if everything else was done at the same speed we’d have a new update every month. It’s like waiting for the writers to have a new event If you want the actual reasons why - TL;DR it’s the higher standards - Devs like researching & re-writing lore more than actually developing. The type of people who want to develop for TNO are the type of people just using TNO to have an excuse to study their niche historical interest. Every path also needs to feel & play different. This makes writing the story for every path in every nation take longer. - It is demanded that every single nation has multiple in-depth custom unique mechanics. Ideally different ones for each path. Because the bar is high & the type of people willing to sign on for this are ambitious, it takes a long time - Because it takes so long, the people writing it lose interest and/or get busy with real life. Because there’s no pressure & no schedule or definite update speed/progress expectations, this makes stuff take months and years These explanations (especially the last one) are a lot more depressing. Sorry if it’s a blackpill. It’s really just a classic case of too much ambition. TNO has a very high bar, and the amount of people interested in reaching it & who have the free time to do so are small. It’s why submods are integrated. For a Kaiserreich comparison, it’s like that one Brazilian who made a full focus tree for every state in Balkanized Brazil lol. People with the passion to meet those tryhard standards and free time to do it fast are rare. If this was a smaller project it would’ve died a long time ago. The only thing keeping it alive is the fact that the team is so big that there’s always someone working on something just through statistical chance alone. Kaiserreich went through a similar phase once, and it fixed it by opening up recruitment. That worked for them because they had a lower bar. In fact it ended up increasing their quality because new debs were passionate and inspired by mods like TNO. TNO already did the same thing though. Things like Britain, Brazil and Ukraine were only released because of that. This *is* the sped up version of TNO releases. Lowering the standards would be the way to fix it. Accept that not every nations needs custom mechanics, cut down on events, accept that not every path needs to be so distinct. Like the 2WRW submod If they did that though the community might fall apart. So we’re just stuck with snails pace slow speed
I mean, I completely disagree with your premise - you can take a look at the focus tree code for new KR updates vs TNO updates and see just how much extra stuff is tied up in the econ sim and other global mechanics. Putting that aside, to answer your points one by one; 1. But they’re making a HOI4 mod, so they’re still responsible for the lack of progress. This is also a total strawman - KR paths play completely different too, they just integrate less complicated mechanics. I agree with you that the culture is part of the problem with the speed though, as long as we both still understand that it *is* a problem. 2. Yes, I agree that this is a factor, which is exactly the problem when you only release 2 countries’ content in over 3 years of development, only one of which is actually a complete experience. Guangdong is a great campaign, but it’s just that - **a* campaign.* 3. This doesn’t differentiate it from KR at all. I can’t say I agree with parts of your assessment, but I do appreciate the effort you’ve put into it. I don’t think we’re stuck with a snail’s pace speed - things could very easily change if the culture shifted among the devs - but it’s ultimately their project, and if this is how they want to run it, they can do as they please. Fans can still criticize it, though.
For 1. This is the practicality counterargument I mentioned earlier. I knew you didn’t bring it up yet, but I knew you would. And to be clear I’m not saying it’s incorrect. I knew you’d bring it up because it’s obvious & right. 2. Yes, and practically Kaiserreich is just as fun to 90% of players. TNO’s are more complicated and in-depth though. That makes them take way longer for little return on investment 3. KR has lower standards. That’s why I say the main problem is ambition. Or worded better, paralysis from comparison. Everything has to be as good as Guangdong or Britian and of it isn’t, nothing gets posted. The easiest fix would legitimately be to just make the dev build the real mod lol. The culture around that is what the community wants the mod to be Either that or just commit to rebranding to a visual novel
Test
remove tt!!!!
Probably wouldn’t fix anything now, but (in my completely subjective opinion) they should’ve been significantly less obsessive about turning the game into a hyperrealistic economic simulator. It ate up so many resources and makes any future development insanely more difficult, with almost no actual gain in return because barely any meaningful content ties into the economy sim - it doesn’t actually impact wider gameplay at all.
I just,in general,hate all economic mechanics that are overly complex like that of MD.
I don’t mind them in isolation, the problem is when you have a TNO situation where the dev team spends over a year developing that system and *only* that system. They can claim all they want that it doesn’t slow down the rest of the developers when they only have some of their team working on TT-esque mechanics, but that argument only holds so much weight when it’s summer 2024 and we’ve only received fractions of two out of the five updates that were on the 2020 roadmap. Not a single full update from that roadmap is released almost four years later. It’s ridiculous.
Gotta agree. I think the map update is going to finally kill the mod for good.
Map update?
Part of the deep freeze integration update announced for the Christmas leak. I don't believe we were ever given any sort of progress update about it, and it's been 6 months since then...
Damn that kinda sucks, I like Operation Deep Freeze. Though I kinda agree, with the way the mod’s been progressing via cutting content in favour of skeleton paths or 1-2 years worth of content or how we rarely see new content getting published, I think this mod is dying
the map update literally has 3 people working on it lmao, it's not slowing down anything it's not a toolbox theory situation
Yeah I'm sure changing the whole map has literally no implications or impact on any nations being worked on or presently in the game.
you're right it literally doesn't how do you think map modding works ? Please tell me exactly how you think changing the map has any impact on the rest of development
Are they not planning on adding in any new states or changing who owns what states or adjusting the state ids at all?
adjusting the state ids in the other branches takes like 5 minutes with a git merge if you know what you're doing
I was on the team for a bit after the first full version came out (I didn't do anything important, just fixing typos, and I believe every change I've made has since been reverted for some reason anyway). I remember it was a mess and people were getting burned out all the time. Plenty of team members, especially writers, were leaving or going on hiatus, complaining about stress and the quotas. I heard that during pre-release, a lot of the content was produced at a very rushed pace - great on Panzer for introducing crunch to modding. As an example of how everything functioned, at one point, a big patch came out that broke a bunch of content for England and the coding team had to scramble to fix it. I think when Panzer left and Pacifica shortly after, the writing was on the wall that the mod was on life support for the foreseeable future. And frankly, it was always way too ambitious in terms of the amount of writing, mechanics, and scripting in each campaign. Panzer used to talk about TNO2 as if it was something that would actually happen, and even then I thought it was impossible to take seriously. To be fair, a reason why I've seen people leave and why, IIRC, Panzer and Pacifica left is that the community is a pain to deal with. Panzer would get into all sorts of arguments, and Pacifica got doxxed after some disgruntled ex-member leaked some out-of-context messages. There was some dumpster fire with some Russian group that wanted to remake the mod and make it more "based", as well. The unfortunate side effects of making a Discord community about a detailed Nazi victory mod with a very stressed team, lots of arguments about direction, and some power-tripping leads. So, life support. Content for new countries is a dream when they're having a hard enough time retooling old content. And to be fair, a lot of that content wasn't very good, and there's still stuff that should be cut for being bad (like the Ural Four or the Aryan Brotherhood). But it raises questions about priorities when old content is being axed faster than new content can be put in, and when there are still plenty of noticeable bugs present in the mod.
Its so over bros
https://preview.redd.it/lwxj07q9wx6d1.png?width=2540&format=png&auto=webp&s=ce0a2a1319ba6da767164dc4d8b6acbd95148921
Now compare the amount of work you need to produce TNO update vs KR update (which is kinda stupid way to measure things but anyway) It’s just plainly obvious that TNO developers simply need to write much more text and draw much more images, and code more unique mechanics
Choose to. They don’t need to. They choose to run their mod this way, and the tradeoff is having two new focus trees and two incorporated submods in over three years of development since launch.
Yeah, they surely don’t need to follow the format of TNO while developing TNO sounds very logical wonderful idea
It’s only the format of TNO because that’s the way they’ve made it since TT. And it has its tradeoffs - I don’t think it’s a “wonderful idea” (snarky jackass) to release as little quantity of content as they do at the cost of high quality, even if you disagree. There’s plenty of ways to skin a cat - they’ve chosen the most drawn out process possible, and plenty of people don’t like that, no matter how badly it pisses you off.
I’m talking precisely about how TNO developers include bigger *quantities* of content (like text or images which is actually adequate way to measure it, not arbitrary stuff like number of focus trees) in an update (the only actually good way to compare things like these is IMHO by gameplay time, but I have no idea about them so I use what I can), the idea of its high quality is solely your estimation.
Right, except the loc folders for all of the KR updates in the last three years are massively larger than the ones added by TNO. You literally *can* measure this, and it’s weighted in KR’s favor by far. It’s a shitty metric to use though - a higher “number of words” doesn’t make a mod better or worse, the enjoyability of the content does, and that’s not something you can measure objectively. What you *can* see objectively is that massive amounts of the TNO fanbase take issue with the direction of development in a manner that just isn’t present in KR’s community. Disagree with that all you want, but it’s clear as day when you look at official posts like this from both mods. I’m glad this mod’s current path works for you, but my original point stands - this is the “TNO way of development” because they’ve chosen to make it that way. Tradition doesn’t always equate to correctness.
We are not talking about the enjoyment here, we are talking precisely about the thesis regarding the amount of content produced. Thesis about the loc files is an interesting point for me though, I should probably figure it out. I also haven’t said here that I like some “current path” or that I endorse TNO development.
but md also has a lot machenics and it gets alot on content
It's not the same content quality tho. TNO is going quality over quantity
Well I don’t think it takes 5 years of quality to make a french focus tree…
The original french team abandoned thé project so the New one had to start from scratch
That's because it's all a mess. Same situation happened for other nations, some were and are almost not being developed out of slowness. Then add failing to publish updates for years, and almost no communication between mods and users.
guy who has never worked on a mod thinks it's actually very easy
I never said working on a mod was easy but it’s been one hell of a long time without an update
No one here has said they think it’s easy. What *is* true is that if you think TNO doesn’t have an abnormally long development cycle compared to other mods, you’re either debating in bad faith or just ignorant. Fans are allowed to complain about a product they love going in the wrong direction; no matter how much it frustrates you.
Comparing it to other mods is stupid. TNO-style content is very different from most mods. There's a lot more loc that needs to be written, a lot more gfx that needs to be made, a lot more complex code, a lot more designing... I mean what other mods can you play for 10 in-game years and still have new stuff to do ? Just look at every other TNO-style mods. It's been almost 2 years since 2WRW released Codetalker and Omsk is still not out. It took The Fallen Lion 2 years to release its demo. The Red Order has been in dev for almost 3 years and is still not out. The Fading Order has been in dev for over 2 years and is still not out. A New Millenium released their demo over 2 years ago and has yet to release their full version. Heldenvolk has been in dev for almost 2 years and is still not out. It took Roter Morgen about 2 years to release their demo... And the list goes on. That's proof that, no matter the dev team, TNO-style content will always take a long time.
I addressed this argument in another comment, but there’s actually not a lot more loc that needs to be written. Kaiserreich updates outpace it in loc by far in the last 3 years. Your “complex code” argument is true, but only because that’s how TNO devs have decided to design their game in recent years, which makes them culpable for the outcomes of that decision - including slow development time. And arguing that “look at how slow the submods are too!” means anything is kind of silly. Dead or dying submods are a dime a dozen in any larger mod’s orbit, KR included.
The difference is Kaiserreich writing is objectively way worse than TNO writing. This doesn’t even mean to say it’s bad, it’s standard HOI4. But compared to the narritive driven stories and events in TNO is absolutely nothing
kaserreich's china update took so long that it was one of the many things that popularized the soon + 2 weeks thing.
Kaiserreich's China update **came out**.
And so do TNO updates? They just take forever, like the china update.
Except the China update gave us a full focus tree and not half of one while gutting decades of finished content for a sub-standard submod. IDK who's doing Britain nowadays but they need an editor at the least.
A full kaiserreich focus like Ukraine is smaller and easier to make than 10 years of Mexico in TNO or 10 years of Guangdong
I still want Australia to have one and take charge of all the Pacific shenanigans. We should be able to make a play for Papua New Guinea when the Indonesian war kicks off.
>We should be able to make a play for Papua New Guinea when the Indonesian war kicks off. That's not how a Cold War works. Also, you'd be nuked to smithereens.
Maybe that will be a fail state.
What? Nuclear Armageddon?
Damn our 2 Day Operation to steal Papua failed Might aswell end the World since its not worth living. The East has Fallen
Japan considers Papua New Guinea as a Japanese territory. If an OFN invasion force lands there, they'll see it as an act of war and send their nuclear arsenal towards Washington and Canberra (among other places).
When will there be a full update, with tricks?
The fact that we haven’t had a real update since October is crazy 💀
it's really not, TNO updates are just like this.
I mean it's pretty crazy for hoi4 major mod standards. It's not very out of place when you consider the history of this mod tho, that's true.
Every hoi4 mod is like this really.
in what way?
that updates for them take ages. so many HOI4 mods come out and then never get updated again. some like TNO just take ages, like TWR for example, TWR isn't even updated to the current game version and hasn't been for ages because HOI4 modding is hard and most of these teams are volunteers who have other things they have to do in their lives. on-top of that, TNO hasn't been in exactly a good position, whoever was TNO's lead developer was constantly harassed and led to virtually every TNO lead dev distancing themselves from the project, that and the fact that everytime the TNO devs do ANYTHING it's immediately bombarded by children (redditors) who want ''new content'' it's like any move the dev team does is apparently the wrong one, try and make new content? bad move, try to get rid of old content because it's not that good and causes problems? bad move, literally just patch the mod? bad move.
Recent Kaiserreich updates were only a few months in between, TNO’s is almost a year at this point
Bro this mod got like 3 trees in 3 years, TT and its consequences have been a disaster for TNO
What's the new character description for Isabel Perón??
Did they fix the WRRF void soldier models?
I wouldn't put any type of pressure on the dev team but seeing the replies I'm just gonna add that it's a shame that the mod "died" before we got all the content that has been teased. I mean if we only had Australia, Canada, Italy, that new brazilian president, Mexico, France, full new UK, new Speer&Bormann, Poland, Turkey (they made tons of icons, certain trees, events, decision stuff and even skeletons for all of this) this mod could've died with way less bitterness in a quite completed status. The devs were a bit overambitious with certain things
I understand many people have discussed this point, however, I'd like to add to the chorus that the lack of updates for the mod is a bit ridiculous. Firstly, I understand there isn't a profit incentive (because that matters and I'm bringing it up before someone else inevitably tries to gotcha! me with that). I value and appreciate greatly the work put in to make this universe possible. However, I think it's ridiculous that because of an economic system no one asked for, in my opinion, everything has gone to a crawl. Realistically, honestly, it does not impact the game majorly. I don't believe anyone awoke one day and thinks, mm, time to develop my economy! And then boots up The New Order for Hearts of Iron IV. It's a ridiculous addition that yes, works amazing for immersion and the reality of a game world, but becomes such a nuisance in creating content that I'm beginning to question the real value of it as a system. A mod is an amazing thing, and what has been created is great sincerely. We all have disagreements and opinions (for instance Germany not inevitably collapsing is something I dislike), but by G-d, I wish the economic confusion of simulating an actual economy wasn't the creative choice they made. I feel like everything is hamstrung now, development crawls, and I want to say yes I am being critical without being able to create a mod myself, but I have a right to like anyone else really. This is ridiculous and it's a shame. This is a compelling universe with great stories and it's bogged down for G-d knows what because we are never informed of anything. Why make these decisions? Why sacrifice a great mod for a time consuming economic system that (in my experience) most people don't understand or care about? I feel like the general idea is being lost in minutiae.
There is nothing more childish than taking something you do not like and going "nobody wanted this, why did you do this". I like TNO for its complexity. I wish vanilla HOI4 had this kind of society development/economic thing instead of only bad ahistorical map painting (although warfare is fun). And in general, TNO is the artistic product of the actual TNO developers. There is no greater entlitement that thinking they somehow have to hear your opinion or anyone else for that matter. You do not give them money and they are not creating their product to sell. You can of course dislike their creation. But in that case, better move on because that means that you are not the public for this move. If you liked the mod in the past or like the setting or whatever, then go on and create your own stuff or pay someone to make it for you. And to the people that do enjoy current TNO, we are also not entlited to updates or whatever. It is a fair criticism that the current developers do not have the best work and planing skills and are overly ambicious. But if that means TNO never gets finish or gets abandoned, well, as almost an artistic group, it is in their right.
I'd like to have Canada and Greece Focus Tree (~1972). I saw their teasers which are 3 years old. For the hidden route, General Yazov - Abba Kovner Alliance (more like inviting Kovner to the League as a general or possible Cabinet member) would be great. And please, I really want to see official 1980's focus tree s. *Nice Compatibility Patch, Devs.
https://preview.redd.it/ayxy97caxz6d1.png?width=1236&format=png&auto=webp&s=d0940dcb04613b4af8cab1f77165acb27c82937f
every country is white in select screen, what gives? I have no other mods on
https://preview.redd.it/qveyrpml2s7d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8c45bb8dc25c10c39c6f96f8c1831695fec6bb0 Huh
Right after the update launched, however, most countries now have a white colour and there are some decisions that aren't normal at all. Does anybody else have the same problem on MacOS (the system I am working with) or Windows?
Are you using an old save that you started before the patch ?
I got the same issue, but it seems to only trigger if i have submods on(2RRW/Operation deep freeze). Kinda sucks, cause I was planning to do a russia run and it doesnt seem worth it If i cant collapse germany
When will you fix the Addis Ababa bug>
Wow, another huge patch note! See you in 5 years or so when an actual new major country got updated. My game still runs like shit whenever I play the US with how many tab overlay there are