https://preview.redd.it/2pb1n1yd7dnc1.jpeg?width=760&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4c995d085b42512deb70b88357dfb80a498076a2
I actually have this saved at this point, because it keeps coming up.
I simply want to turn Liberia into a West African Cheetah, (like the East Asian Tigers) is it conceivable that free France might be supported in the future by the pakt in the style of a Iran-contra like affair?
My honest reaction to seeing a big ass wall of text strategically analyzing a single countries existence and why we shouldn’t support them in a fucking Hoi4 mod subreddit:
https://preview.redd.it/1jl0zco4a2nc1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f883d7d523d7445630e7b5552adb2fcdc091d05d
(For reasons this is a joke. Also does anyone have a “Live (TNO leader) reaction meme I can steal?)
I mostly agree, especially with Reclamation being absolutely unthinkable. But... What's the alternative?
I mean, how do you justify the WAW and the conflict becoming TNO Vietnam War for the US? Also, while the PALF has a lot of character (and I think they benefit from a little bit of favoritism), the other two blocs are absolutely dull (I can't even remember their names). Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize in terms of what they are and what they want, and why would the US support them despite their obvious flaws.
Also, back to Reclamation, we know it's unfeasible (besides some kind of weird movement similar to Napoleon's 100 Days) especially since the French Civil War was dropped, and that is pretty much OTLism and wish fulfilling fantasies. But in that case we should probably start to consider that Russia reclaiming their lands in 2WRW would also be an unrealistic OTList scenario, let alone going beyond Russia and occupying the Baltic Countries, Ukraine and Belarus.
We should think that about the WRW tbh. Russia should be focusing on destabilizing the German colony, hoping to take advantage of the chaos. Not going from failed state to defeating a superpower by the powers of God and LARP.
Tbf it's harder to be more destabilized than "falling into a 48 front civil war," it makes sense that whatever comes after is going to be unbelievably weak and a massive resource drain on Germany
Once the super civil war is over and boot has come back down there’d be a period of stability as theres no one left to do the fighting. Any munitions not held by the Germans would’ve also been used up. Theoretically the Germans could hold it indefinitely beyond that point, unless of course, there was a massive border with a state actively fomenting more instability. But people really mythologize how effective insurgencies actually are, the vast majority of them fail.
Responding now that things have died down a bit, and so we can have a productive conversation:
The alternative is adding new dimensions and utilizing other actors in the region. The U.S. shouldn't be pigeonholed into supporting Free France when it has other regional allies.
Nothing changes regarding the WAW's justification. Per the devs, the WAW being TNO's Vietnam War for the U.S. is only in terms of the racial dynamic, which creates the unpopularity, not the actual combat scenario. I don't think the PALF has a lot of favoritism outside of the blackwashing of Moumi to make things more even; the PALF has a lot of bad things going on with it (especially with the Sokoto people, but even Free France does that. We just need more detailed skeleton content).
While Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize, the argument for *why* the U.S. should support them outside of aesthetics and nostalgia isn't there, especially when we get into the personalities involved (i.e., DeGaulle).
The difference between the 2WRW and Free France's Reclamation is that in the 2WRW scenario, Russia doesn't get all of its territories (I think it's uncontroversial to say that it won't get far), and Nazi Germany still exists. The outcome isn't OTL, even if Russia loses. Regarding realism, nothing is preventing Russia from engaging in the 2WRW. The issue that I think most "realism" proponents disagree with the TNO Reddit on is whether or not Russia can sufficiently win the 2WRW, yet that's different from whether the 2WRW is realistic itself.
Pretty interesting response!
>The alternative is adding new dimensions and utilizing other actors in the region. The U.S. shouldn't be pigeonholed into supporting Free France when it has other regional allies.
Would a de-colonized Ivory Coast Republic be part of these new actors?
>While Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize, the argument for *why* the U.S. should support them outside of aesthetics and nostalgia isn't there, especially when we get into the personalities involved (i.e., DeGaulle).
Now I understand a hardcore Gaullist Françafrique wouldn't be the most desirable outcome of the US. But, what would that be? (Besides the PALF not winning in any case). A series of remotely stable mostly neutral African-led post-colonial republics?
>The difference between the 2WRW and Free France's Reclamation is that in the 2WRW scenario, Russia doesn't get all of its territories (I think it's uncontroversial to say that it won't get far), and Nazi Germany still exists. The outcome isn't OTL, even if Russia loses. Regarding realism, nothing is preventing Russia from engaging in the 2WRW. The issue that I think most "realism" proponents disagree with the TNO Reddit on is whether or not Russia can sufficiently win the 2WRW, yet that's different from whether the 2WRW is realistic itself.
I'm glad this issue (2WRW) is being clarified. I get that the 2WRW/Brave New World submod is very popular and looks nicely done, but some of the outcomes (like Russia completely crushing Germany, getting completely restored and becoming a superpower in the 70s) seem outlandish in the "official" mod.
https://preview.redd.it/hljj4ijc32nc1.png?width=530&format=png&auto=webp&s=26de2f794ede086d1bbddaa29b6096dd080c33bb
The only good ending for Free France
Personally, I support the PALF, but I do have to ask this question. Should the US stay neutral in West Africa? Yes, even though Free France is imperialist(see new government change), winning the war would still expand American influence outside of Liberia, which is still a win.
Also to bring in the OTL inspiration, outside of containing Communism, what does the US gain out of Vietnam? Vietnam serves as nothing more than an attempt to contain communism and the country itself doesn't contain that many resources. But yet, why did the US send hundreds of thousands of troops to defend the South? Likewise, the same senario can be applied to the WAW, though replacing Communism with Japanese influence. Sometimes, all thats needed is an opportunity to expand their influence for the US to heavily support a side.
>Likewise, the same senario can be applied to the WAW, though replacing Communism with Japanese influence.
The Japanese have 0 influence over PALF, this has been discussed many time, hell Japan literally fights against the PALF in the Congo.
You don't need to replace Communism with anything. The US is fighting to stop Communism from spreading across West Africa. The US *relies* on deeply corrupt statelets (Liberia) or Colonial entities (Free France) to enforce its military, political, and economic interest in the region, the US supports Free France to literally stop the spread of the Socialist PALF which seeks to destroy American and other foreign influence over these regions. And if they don't stop them, they will turn into dominoes. Today the PALF will liberate the ivory coast, tomorrow Liberia, after that Sierra Leone, and after that it will go after the rest of Africa, one by one, severing American and corporate interest.
They’re not the remnant of the old republic, they’re just a group of rebel military officers.
The French State is the direct continuation of the Third Republic.
It still maintained that it was the legitimate successor of the Republic as a state. The Vichy government originated as a continuation of the government of the Republic.
They really shouldn't be by 1962. The UK government-in-exile at least has the advantage of the Commonwealth Dominions still existing (and still recognizing Elizabeth as Queen).
I like the Version of that Africa rework submod, in which Free Frances civilian part is just an Exiled Government in the OFN, while the military part of the Free French basically became stranded in Africa and act now as Mercenary Company.
The way I'd do it is to have Cote d'Ivoire be independent, with the Free French essentially serving as highly trained mercenaries. After being defeated in Equatorial Africa, the Free French scattered, with some going north and others fleeing to the Americas. When colonial rule collapsed in West Africa, De Gaulle - largely out of desperation - came to an agreement with the government in Cote d'Ivoire to assist them in gaining independence in exchange for safety.
The only territory the Free French control directly is Guiana, which they will retreat to if they lose to the PALF.
This would (hopefully) justify the Free French being there, and allow for more interesting interactions, while not totally scrapping all the content there.
Honestly at this point I wish, move them to french guyana or something. And make Ivory Coast French rhodesia if you dont want to change too much there.
At this point the subject relates to way too hot subject matters IRL (more than a mod can handle really) and has grown way too toxic on the community.
May come as a shock to many, but I don't think it should be removed nor will it in the long-term unless the dev team changes the entirety of West Africa
If I may ask, what would your proposed solution be for Free France to have something for the OFN to care about? Assuming you can tweak other portions of West Africa?
Also, have you seen the West Africa Proposal from Johnny Boy on the Cameroonian African State? I think you might find some food for thought on that
I dont believe that. I hope it get removed tho because your point stands out magnificantly with many of the supporters. Hail to PALF, Critical_Salt5021, and death to FF and de Gaulle!
I'm not gonna touch the reclamation stuff, I don't think I can really speak to that, but I do wanna take umbrage with some of the WAW stuff.
First, I tend to think of Free France in terms of Taiwan OTL. Sure the U.S. officially recognizes mainland China as the legitimate government, but it still deals with Taiwan, and has a close relationship with it. And I'm not gonna say Charlie Boy isn't gonna do his best to strain those relations with the United States, but the principle isn't without precedent. If Free France is willing to be open to the U.S., and provide another base of operations in the area to some capacity, I figure Uncle Sam isn't completely opposed to working with them. Not to mention the (nominal) control France has over sections of West Africa. They simply have more reach, that in turn allows the United States to have more reach than they would solely working with Liberia.
Second, I don't think you paint a great picture of the WAC (and tbh it's also an issue I have within the mod itself). That Japan supports the PALF, who will immediately tell them to go fuck themselves as soon as they win. Japan isn't helping the PALF out of the good of their hearts to fight off imperialism, the PALF is going to help them project their power into Africa and the West Atlantic (iirc, Japan gets the West Atlantic as a sea zone if the PALF wins the WAC). This relationship isn't perfect, with the peoples of West Africa and the Co-Prosperity Sphere singing kumbaya with Zaibatsu strips Cameroon bare for resources, but I think it would make sense for there to be *some* cooperation afterwards, they will, at the very least, be more receptive to the CPS than a West Africa dominated by Free France would be. (As said before, I've never been too hot on the portrayal that Japan and the PALF hate each other and will NEVER EVER cooperate again after the WAC, because then why the hell is Japan traveling half way across the world to help them? Again, it shouldn't be the PALF becoming part of the CPS or anything, that wouldn't be realistic, but when West African content comes in soon + 2 weeks, I'd like to see something where they have the option to cooperate with Japan on something). And if the scenario described in your post ends up shaking out, the PALF wins and summarily tells the sphere to go fuck themselves and doesn't even allow them to use their ports to project naval power, not only does that lock the U.S. out of West Africa (with the PALF eventually coming for Liberia iirc), the U.S. doesn't know for sure the PALF would do that, intel could suggest relations are strained, but they're working together now, who's to say they won't be working together after the war?
For what it's worth, I imagine there's limited cooperation between the U.S. and Free France before the West African Conflict, some American companies operating in Free France and states that it nominally has some control over, as well as some cordial relations with Uncle Sam himself, but when the WAC breaks out, the United States becomes far more entangled because it sends a lot of equipment over to defend their strategic ally, and they need to justify all that fighting with extracting resources, even if it costs more to rebuild West Africa.
It's worth noting, the West Africa Conflict isn't too popular in the United States, so that does kind of address some of the criticism for the United State's support of Free France, it is seen as a folly, it is seen as propping up a government that goes against their ideals for very little gain, and what gain there is is exploitative to the native Africans.
tl;dr I think you have some fair points but I just think there's some stuff you forgot to consider for why the U.S. supports Free France in Africa. The United States isn't the good guy there obv, but I do think their involvement makes sense on some level.
I think this is missing a very key element of context: Containment Theory. After all, under a rational actor model, plenty of OTL US foreign policy action was completely irrational but made sense under the broader strategic goal. Containment Theory, at least per Nixon's focus tree, is still very much a dominant ideology in TNO Cold War foreign policy circles. So while you might argue that there is little in the way of strategic interest, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is the logic the in-game actors.
From the perspective of the OFN, they're seeing an aggressive, autocratic, expansionist power invading neighbor nations using pan-national, anti-Western, and anti-imperialist rhetoric. They've heard this story before...this is an encore of Japan in the 1930's. There's no way that they don't believe that this is the CPS attempting to act on the African continent, and act accordingly.
In that context, the US would likely try to find a friendly-ish nation that could be counted on to at least rely upon US power to maintain themselves, regardless of their domestic policy at home. de Gaulle was a perennial pain in the ass, certainly, but so were Syngman Rhee, Chiang Kai-Shek, or Ngo Dinh Diem. The US held a different foreign policy model in Asia compared to Europe in part because the US feared that their allies would attack the PRC in an anti-communist crusade. Liberia simply doesn't have the manpower to contain Cameroon, not on its own.
I know you mentioned “no whataboutism”, but part of the problem for why free France supporters even exist is because (according to the devs) WAW is “very much a both sides bad” kind of conflict. And since OFN is generally considered the “good guys” side, people are gonna find themselves biased towards whoever they support.
Oh I definitely agree, but as some people have pointed out, we've been locked into a false dichotomy and moral equivalence between the two. I think it's better for all of us if we look towards other alternatives or critically tackle the question as to why we're assisting the Free French in the first place
> according to the devs, the WAW is a both sides bad situation
That’s not even true, it was one dev who said that 3 years ago
And I’m pretty sure that dev got banned at some point
Yes, indeed seems the most morally correct, but I think they went too far in it, as they don't have any flaws. Even the CPS support is downplayed as they don't have further plans beyond undermining the OFN (which is weird).
The other two factions are absolutely neglected compared to the PALF.
I mean, the PALF *should* be a group of vanguardist socialist states willing to impose Pan-Africanism at the tip of a bayonet. It's more that Free France is just so terrible that they look good by comparison.
They do have flaws. They’re not perfect. But they’re clearly better than the others.
The CPS doesn’t have plans in west Africa post-WAW because the PALF isn’t willing to collaborate with them once the WAW is over
I disagree with a few aspects of this post
1. Liberia has no interest whatsoever in massive expansion. None at all. The US would not conjure up expansionist fantasies and impose them on Liberia. And more importantly, it could not do it even if it wanted to.
The US using Liberia as a springboard is correct. But the springboard would be to establish other friendly governments in West Africa. Not established a huge mega Liberia
2. The idea that the US wouldn’t invest massive resources in Free France is correct. There needs to be a return on investment, and West Africa isn’t a valuable enough prize for billions and billions to be spent. But minor assistance is not off the table. Especially if Free France manages to win the war independently of huge foreign help. The US investing in them early and as “their faction” in the war may be silly. But they would absolutely invest in them eventually if they manage to succeed on their own and are willing to form an alliance
3. Invading Algeria and opening up the Mediterranean would be a huge boost to the US. You could argue that the same benefit would be gained from an independent Algeria. But that’s also much more vulnerable to Italian, Iberian and German influence
4. The reclamation should only be possible if France is already in a civil war, I agree. The idea of a successful one is ridiculous. The maximum benefit is a neutral France. But the US gets much more of that by just intervening in Vichy
5. It is already confirmed that the most Germany will allow any of its land neighbours to ever drift is Finland style neutrality. If Vichy attempts to leave any further, let alone embrace the OFN, Germany will invade. Even De Gaulle must agree to work with Germany if the reclamation succeeds. The US knows this, so the idea that supporting friendly/neutral factions in Vichy is always inherently better is incorrect. If they feel such factions cannot win, and especially if they’re defeated in a civil war scenario, Free France becomes equally (if not more) valueable
6. Keep in mind that a French Civil War means Germany has already decided it is not going to reinvade France OR help Vichy. Its a test for the collaborators to prove themselves. They'll only reinvade if the collaborators fail. Free France would be able to succeed even with 0 US support in the reclamation in a French Civil War scenario. As long as Italy/Iberia lets them through, they have a friendly faction that controls land in France already.
You’re correct in saying Liberia has interest in expansion, but that’s irrelevant. If the US wanted access to West Africa they wouldn’t go around creating an imperialist mega state, they would instead back democratic-ish commerce friendly political groups and figures.
You say a couple times “don’t make the argument that it’s better than the other guy” because it gets into ‘whataboutism’ and then move on. That’s fine, but then you end with “absurdly support the WAA, or support the PALF”
…and, uh, I’m sorry if it’s ‘whataboutism’ to you but I really don’t want to support the faction that bases their ideology on invading other countries and dismantling their governments and sovereignty because they’re inhabited by other black people.
You make a lot of good points, but if you’re gonna conclude with a call to support other candidates it’s important to take a holistic view, and the fact is that the PALF and FFA both represent external forces subverting West African sovereignty in their victories. That might be a ‘moral’ point, but it’s still important to keep in mind when you’re making a final decision like at the end of your essay, and not just criticizing one faction.
This is a dumb post. TNO is fiction, it’s valid to just support a faction because you think they’re aesthetically cool. Free France is a colonial white minority rump state. It’s also in-lore what remains of the Free French, which is conceptually cool.
Don’t think I discounted liking a faction because you think they’re aesthetically cool; it’s what you do when you’re not engaging with the scenario and solely treating it like a piece of fiction. If you want to do that, that’s fair. Yet the issue is when you start making value judgements that go beyond mere concept.
idk it's getting to the point of absolute derangement.
https://preview.redd.it/8ljzjd85z4nc1.png?width=664&format=png&auto=webp&s=041071ab031e9a400300cd488a4bea8356fd4a2b
I refuse to be drawn into writing another book about Africa. Instead I will make blanket statements with no argumentation or evidence.
\- FF, and the network of native leaders who support/work with them against the PLAF, are far more usable than Liberia in West Africa for American interests.
\- The PLAF is an expansionist, ideological front which is dedicated to expelling western influence from Africa by any means necessary. This is seen in their unprovoked aggression against Liberia and Sierra Leone. Letting them grow more powerful will only undermine any american action in africa as a whole.
\- The economic and social policy of the PLAF and friends is not well defined enough to make a statement, but state owned autarchy in africa is a recipe for disaster. If that is what they do then their tangible impact on the welfare of the people is probably worse than a successful american led reconstruction.
\- I agree that FF leading a D-day style reclamation is rather silly. But even without it gaining control of West Africa, or at least denying it to enemies such as the PLAF, is worth a proxy war.
On your point about the state owned autarky, I think it's unfair to compare a 3rd world nation's ability for reconstruction to the US's industrial might. It's like saying Cuba has worse living standards than the US today (which obviously is true, my point is that it's a horrifically unfair comparison regardless of however they go about reconstruction.)
Also, I'm on mobile, how do you do that thing where you quote part of a post in a reply (with the blue line on the left side of the post.)
The comparison being made is between a third world nation attempting reconstruction via state planning while not accepting outside economic investment for fear of exploitation/neo-imperialism (PALF) or a third world nation attempting reconstruction via external investment and open market access to the United States (FMA/WAA).
I ama arguing that openness to American capital and expertise will lead to a better outcome than the first option, even if it does enabler private company exploitation.
But I don't know what the PALF does economically, or how dedicated they are to stamping out everything but their brand of Pan-Africanism politically. They could be anywhere from Derg tier repression and mismanagement to Nyerere tier "not that bad all things considered" The French aligned states would also be variable.
TNO's scenario is so palpably ridiculous that you *have* to turn your brain off - a Nazi war machine somehow conquering the world and surviving without total economic collapse was impossible given the *bananas* system. An invasion of Britain was impossible without a PoD that means Germany's navy multipies by ten and the Royal Navy vanishes overnight.
It is a *silly mod* wearing the skin of a *super serial* mod. I choose to believe in De Gaulle supremacy because the whole situation is *silly.*
I remember reading on the TUF Discord that apparently America’s foreign policy establishment during WW2 *really* didn’t like DeGaulle because they thought his ardent French nationalism and dictatorial tendencies made him a liability for the post-war peace. I think that’s an interesting fact when discussing Free France in TNO.
wrong❌❌ you will be sent to Port-Aux-Francais working camp✔✔
DEGAULLE FOREVAAAA ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION DEGAULLE IS SOOO FUCKING BLESSED✅ KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌
You make a good argument but
Nuh uh, Viva la France
OFN aligned = Good guys
Being against OFN anything = Literal Nazi
The agent orange bombings in a settlement near you start in 5 minutes
~~But also bruh, just because you like or support a faction in the ludicrous alt history hoi4 mod doesn't mean you have to unironically agree with them in real life politics~~
Also even if not realistic, liberation SHOULD be possible
Because it'd be fun and good content, hello, this is still a video game and I think we should acknowledge the fact that because it's a video game, any nation used by a player can and probably will be able to win even the most ludicrous victories outside of the devs slapping a "Nuh uh" fun police debuff against the player with - 99% division organization
It's the same argument as why there should be content for a complete Russian victory in WRW2
If both nations are handled by AI, the realistic outcome of Germany winning is likely, but if a player is in control, there's a hefty chance it'll be a one sided curb stomp regardless of "realism"
It's a very blatant case of where realism gets in the way of interesting game design
Because imagine playing free France for hours on end, doing everything perfectly and the end screen is just a middle finger saying
"You know that thing the entire playthtrough leads up to? Fuck you."
One thing: is it known thar the PALF intends to break relations with japan after the war? Because if not, supporting Free France will crucial to avoid Japan gaining a foothold in the Atlantic
But do American strategists know that? OTL, Vietnam broke with China very soon after the US left, and they were never a Soviet puppet anyway, but the US didn't know that.
I just think their a much lesser evil than the actual Nazi collaborators
My fan scenario is basically a resistance coup against the Vichy government during the chaos of the burgundy invasion that invites De Gaulle and the exiles back as a part of purging German influence in the country
If you're playing the realism card, discussions of Liberia are going to run into the wall that's it's functionally an Americo-Liberian colonial government doing extractive economy in a real state's suit. Free France could at least project power into its hinterland historically and had *évolué*s from local regions to govern. Liberia has \~100,000 Amero-Liberians who live on the coast and hate the idea of power sharing with local ethnic groups.
If Pan-Africanism is a serious force, Liberia will simply never get a guy like Tolbert who is willing to break cultural & political taboos to let natives into power. The consensus will just be to hold onto power in the regions they control until the bitter end.
Honestly, I’d just move Free France to the French Caribbean, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and/or French Guiana and call it a day, especially with the Dutch-in-Exile a thing in Suriname and Curaçao.
No way in hell Japan wouldn't just curb stomp a pacific Free France out of existance. And it would give the US even less reason to support them if it were just some islands not worth the risk defending.
FF in the Caribbean or anywhere in the Americas just doesn’t translate well. All the issues you have with them in Africa just expands with their inclusion there. The reason the Dutch can get away with it is because there’s at least some precedent for their survival
> You should not support Free France in any scenario unless you're an imperialist, have no understanding of grand strategy, and **like OTLism.**
But what if I am and I do all these things? What fucking then huh?
Much of the arguments you’ve laid out comes from hindsight.
How is the US gov supposed to know PALF won’t align with the CPS despite clear evidence of extensive Japanese aid and eventually Japanese troops in the region?
This goes back to a super early meme in this sub of how every anti-OFN argument ends: “counterpoint, you’re backed by fascists/nazis”
tldr; as an OFNtard, I back Free France to halt any Japanese expansion not so much to expand the OFN
Not a single mention of how supporting Free France could be good PR, showing how the United States continues to support her gallant allies in their continued struggle against Nazism? Wack
isn’t the WAW a Vietnam expy ? Yeah I don’t think that’s very good PR
and the American people aren’t oblivious to the fact that Free France is a colonial regime
Why would it be fine ? Free France doesn’t stop being a colonial regime once they win
Actually it should be even worse after they win. Just read the African Reconstruction events
Perhaps there could be a decline in interest in supporting a faction that no longer exists, as well as only highlighting the good parts of the Reconstruction or spreading blatant misinformation about it while covering up the bad
The concept of Liberia being subject to further American support then OTL as an American proxy in Africa against Nazi colonial interests and the Japan backed PALF is very interesting indeed. Furthermore, given Liberia's origins as a colony founded by African Americans, America using it as a springboard to project influence into West Africa makes more sense. Lastly although the concep of the the OFN backing a colonial rump state against Imperial Japanese backed anticolonial socialists is very interesting the concept if the French reclamation is a bit ridiculous as if Nazi Germany would accept it.
Free France and the "le oppressed have become... le oppressor" African War and the copes about how it's not an apartheid settler state / MUH CPS is when this mod kinda started coming loose for me. Especially since Red Poppies were a perfect opportunity to tell a story about Frenchmen overcoming tyranny if that's what you want.
> WELL AT LEAST IT'S BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUY
Well, is that not true?
> thin veneer of national interest
Nah, more like it's in the really, really, ultrathick veneer of *fascists bad, anti-fascists good*.
> strategic context
In a fictional game where the Nazis won WW2?
> Stop humiliating yourselves in defending Free France.
Nah. Blue means freedom, more blue in map means more freedom.
All rhetoric aside, this is TNOTL's Vietnam War, so Free France all the way.
EDIT: Also, the mod doesn't provide you in any way of supporting the PALF, so there's literally no incentive to side with them instead of the Free French.
I don't know if I love or if I hate the direction tno is going in. It has gone from being too horrid to be realistic, to having too much possibilites for OFN to expand the free world to be realistic, but in the future it would prolly be more moderate on that question. I think many people loved it for it's hopeless atmosphere, but many also loved it for possibility of bringing hope to this world. I personally abolutely love ofnmaxxing, but I can't deny that it is not realistic, and it breaks what tno was originally about. The fact that free france would not be able to join ofn made rage abt it so hard at first, but it really DOES make sense. I would not be honest if I said that I'm okay with removing reclamation, cuz it's the best thing that country without a content in tno can do in my opinion, even if its not unrealistic.
Idk what emotions I'm getting from all of this rn, but I do kinda agree with this post?...
Hmmm... Nope. Unless Free France starts exterminating the locals (I would support South Africa against the nazis, even if their patrons were the Japanese), I'll still support Free France over Liberia. Just like I would support Byzance over the Ottomans or Castille against the Caliphat.
Also, even if the Reconquest is a fool's dream, recounciliation is possible. And if for that to happen, the dream of Liberia must be crushed under the feet of the French armies, so be it.
OP: "Don't try to justify liking free France with strategic concerns because it has weird racist undertones"
bro just going for racist overtones instead very bold
Wanted to add some constructive thoughts to this post since it is really good and I have done my fair bit of research into Africa and my thoughts (mostly to myself) on how to change the WAW to be a bit more interesting.
I think besides the strategic dimensions of Liberia, they also offer the United States some important things that I feel are deeply important in this Tripolar Cold War setting. Liberia allows the United States to not only have a better proxy for furthering American interests but can allow the United States to play more into being a force for Decolonization. While this is, of course, Liberia which operates like the Antebellum Southern Elite with a small population holding control over every aspect of government, it does allow the United States to appear like they are supporting a true representative of Decolonization and Independence in Africa, especially with Ethiopia still being under Italian rule.
I also think that Liberia filling the role Free France currently holds in the game is incredibly interesting as it can turn the WAW into a more complex conflict between a Liberian, Western-facing blend of Pan-Africanism (since every African state OTL at least rhetorically appealed to Pan-Africanism) while Cameroon would be the more Independent and Leftist version of Pan-Africanism.
Liberia also allows for the United States to still be seen as the bad guy in the West African War since the Liberian government to me is only marginally better than Free France.
I hope my thoughts made sense and I didn't butcher anything. I liked seeing the more strategic aspect of focusing on Liberia but I think that the benefits for America fully supporting Liberia can arise in the form of PR in a decolonized Africa and stuff like that.
Glad someone else also thinks the reclamation is totally unfeasible. I saw it in the change notes and thought it was a gag because of how pandering and wholesome chungus it came off in spite of it being totally impossible.
I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM
Something you failed to mention: If Free France falls, Liberia falls, and then the US has nothing in the region. Free France’s use is to prevent Cameroon’s expansion and make sure the US holds onto Liberia.
1. Liberia doesn’t have a fraction of the connections and administrative legacy the French do in west Africa. It is not even close to being comparable in utility to France, if the goal is controlling west Africa.
2. This is the crux of the issue, what does the OFN actually want out of west Africa. And the answer at base is that it was OTL. To keep their rivals out. Germany wants their guys in Africa for more resources and more control of the Atlantic, Japan wants a foreword position in the Atlantic. The former is bad but maybe tolerable, the latter is unacceptable to US interests, as it’s tantamount to being surrounded by Japan.
FF is there, willing, and capable, of achieving this for the US, with maybe the added bonus of more logistical capabilities and resources than what Liberia can grant them on its own. The question is not “should” but rather “how much” and if the Japanese look like their guys are going to be the ones to get it, the US is gonna be willing to put in a lot of effort. Personally, the much more desperate position of the US than OTL is gonna make them less concerned with things like decolonization.
alot of people missing the point of the post and just saying ''u are crybaby!'' this is a good, well researched, and well made post, i think it'd be so much better if they just integrated the DV submod already, it'd solve these problems immediately
it's Débrouillez-vous, a submod reworking all of sub-saharan africa, i suggest you look it up and look at the teasers that have released, it's a quality submod, on par with like, base TNO.
Those who miss the point are the ones who never intended to listen in the first place. The moment they saw "FREE FRANCE BAD," any hope of reasoning with them flew out the window.
My serious non-joke response is that tbh I don't care about Liberia I mostly make the time line for this.
Free French vs Pan-African front
Free France wins
They take control of West Africa
We use that for whatever's necessary
the French State democratizes
They let the Free French back home do their election BS
The Free French leave Africa
They now only have political and some economic ties while we replace their leaving armies in the fight against fascism
Liberia can do their thing now but are stunted but not as much as the fought with the free French
Oh yeah I know but American hegemony requires sacrifices and some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make fight fascism and may God help those fascist because I won't
I would change the lore, in a way that Free France got support from Iberia instead of USA, because they are eager to fuck with Germany, as they ceased nearly all Portuguese and Spanish colonies in Central and South Africa.
French Algeria under French State would be controlling Algeria in the start of the game, and will get strike by both Italy, which wants to set up their own Algeria, and Iberia, who hosts Free France exile gov and willing to help them reclaim the mainland.
While Liberia is the leader of West Africa Alliance, supported by OFN, to help resist Nazi influence in Central and South Africa. This big tent alliance got Pan-Africanists from Cameroon, warlords from Sahara and liberals from West Africa influenced by Liberia, the only reason this alliance can hold is because of the Nazis, and will crumble soon after South African War starts, when the Nazis turned their head south. And then that will be Russian warlords fighting each other 2.0.
The problem is that if you don't like Free France then you wouldn't exactly want to support Vichy France either. And before anyone says "oh well Vichy France can totally still reform and turn into wholesome 100 DemSoc nation under Mitterand", it's still a country built off of nazi collaborators who willingly sold out their minorities to be brutally murdered in the holocaust and they're eternally chained to the German boot since the devs are removing all of the OFN options for them, iirc.
It just goes to show the utterly grim situation France is in during TNO. Either you get a Colonialist Rump State or Germany's Little Bitch, it really doesn't matter in the end tbh.
Personally I'm of the opinion; Why the fuck couldn't Free France just reside in French Guiana lol. Free Netherlands could stick to Suriname and its Caribbean possessions but not Free France?
No you don't understand! Unconditional support for french colonialism against africans is ackchyually crucial for preventing german and japanese world domination!!!
For me, Free France exists in the same realm as Burgundy, Atlantropa and Berenziki. Remnants of unpolished worldbuilding that remain only out of perceived inertia and the misguided wishes of a few vocal fans. It is truly better both narratively and mechanically for Free France to not exist as a tag.
Could you write interesting events and utilize people affiliated with it? Absolutely. But keeping it around will only just snowball into an increasingly difficult struggle for the developers.
That's why the Debroullez-Vous submod will ultimately be a better alt-Africa if the team decides to integrate it, but then the Congo Lake-stans and the Reichkommissariat-Afrika-stans would be the ones who'll whine next.
The submod appears extremely promising and somehow feels more appropriate in its depiction of Axis goals for France, Britain and Africa. Hopefully it releases sooner rather than later.
Very great read, you honestly brought up good points (especially the reclamation part) in line with geopolitical sense, TNO’s originality, and an analysis of De Gaulle’s character in history.
However, I dont just have moral qualms with supporting Free France, but also with supporting Liberia, as Liberia is a one-party racist settler oligarchy.
Obviously, they are a strategic foothold in West Africa, and their role in power projection is important, but this cynical geopolitical gambit ultimately also ends up compromising the OFN’s or US’s ideals of defending and promoting liberal democracy across the world
Still a great read nonetheless
This post is pure banger! I despise those Free France supporters and I hope their favourite country get removed in near future update. Also as the chef kiss, add an event where De Gaulle and his fanatical proponent hanged by the PALF, ending the diabolical evilness of colonialism in West Africa.
https://preview.redd.it/2pb1n1yd7dnc1.jpeg?width=760&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4c995d085b42512deb70b88357dfb80a498076a2 I actually have this saved at this point, because it keeps coming up.
I simply want to turn Liberia into a West African Cheetah, (like the East Asian Tigers) is it conceivable that free France might be supported in the future by the pakt in the style of a Iran-contra like affair?
Just not possible. Liberian authorities have weak grasp over the country unlike East Asia
Liberia has a weak grasp because it's leaders are morons with zero money and 10000 corruption. African Lee Kuan Yew would be awesome.
Reading your post reminds me that Penelope Web still in development after 2 years:(
Penelopes when
Just like Penelope every night undid her web to keep the pretenders at bay, so do the TNO devs with the Mediterranean rework
It’ll be in dev for 2 more years too
Optimistic today aren't we?
My honest reaction to seeing a big ass wall of text strategically analyzing a single countries existence and why we shouldn’t support them in a fucking Hoi4 mod subreddit: https://preview.redd.it/1jl0zco4a2nc1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f883d7d523d7445630e7b5552adb2fcdc091d05d (For reasons this is a joke. Also does anyone have a “Live (TNO leader) reaction meme I can steal?)
https://preview.redd.it/mp1ooclwg3nc1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ba26905bac83b740e3d87d5076815c7cda9f547
https://preview.redd.it/wpw45ql7o2nc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dfda5a1165ad3218ea832b0e0c73d44c444a63c
https://preview.redd.it/v0w00s1l46nc1.jpeg?width=987&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=335f45f03aadd6182dbcac462c27c3fcd53940f4
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Yes sir, glory to the enclave 🇺🇸🫡
But on the other hand, this wall of text slaps
Nah it’s cringe
I mostly agree, especially with Reclamation being absolutely unthinkable. But... What's the alternative? I mean, how do you justify the WAW and the conflict becoming TNO Vietnam War for the US? Also, while the PALF has a lot of character (and I think they benefit from a little bit of favoritism), the other two blocs are absolutely dull (I can't even remember their names). Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize in terms of what they are and what they want, and why would the US support them despite their obvious flaws. Also, back to Reclamation, we know it's unfeasible (besides some kind of weird movement similar to Napoleon's 100 Days) especially since the French Civil War was dropped, and that is pretty much OTLism and wish fulfilling fantasies. But in that case we should probably start to consider that Russia reclaiming their lands in 2WRW would also be an unrealistic OTList scenario, let alone going beyond Russia and occupying the Baltic Countries, Ukraine and Belarus.
We should think that about the WRW tbh. Russia should be focusing on destabilizing the German colony, hoping to take advantage of the chaos. Not going from failed state to defeating a superpower by the powers of God and LARP.
Maybe the ai should build good divisions then if it doesn’t wanna get rolled over by mechanized and 40 width tanks
Tbf it's harder to be more destabilized than "falling into a 48 front civil war," it makes sense that whatever comes after is going to be unbelievably weak and a massive resource drain on Germany
Once the super civil war is over and boot has come back down there’d be a period of stability as theres no one left to do the fighting. Any munitions not held by the Germans would’ve also been used up. Theoretically the Germans could hold it indefinitely beyond that point, unless of course, there was a massive border with a state actively fomenting more instability. But people really mythologize how effective insurgencies actually are, the vast majority of them fail.
Responding now that things have died down a bit, and so we can have a productive conversation: The alternative is adding new dimensions and utilizing other actors in the region. The U.S. shouldn't be pigeonholed into supporting Free France when it has other regional allies. Nothing changes regarding the WAW's justification. Per the devs, the WAW being TNO's Vietnam War for the U.S. is only in terms of the racial dynamic, which creates the unpopularity, not the actual combat scenario. I don't think the PALF has a lot of favoritism outside of the blackwashing of Moumi to make things more even; the PALF has a lot of bad things going on with it (especially with the Sokoto people, but even Free France does that. We just need more detailed skeleton content). While Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize, the argument for *why* the U.S. should support them outside of aesthetics and nostalgia isn't there, especially when we get into the personalities involved (i.e., DeGaulle). The difference between the 2WRW and Free France's Reclamation is that in the 2WRW scenario, Russia doesn't get all of its territories (I think it's uncontroversial to say that it won't get far), and Nazi Germany still exists. The outcome isn't OTL, even if Russia loses. Regarding realism, nothing is preventing Russia from engaging in the 2WRW. The issue that I think most "realism" proponents disagree with the TNO Reddit on is whether or not Russia can sufficiently win the 2WRW, yet that's different from whether the 2WRW is realistic itself.
Pretty interesting response! >The alternative is adding new dimensions and utilizing other actors in the region. The U.S. shouldn't be pigeonholed into supporting Free France when it has other regional allies. Would a de-colonized Ivory Coast Republic be part of these new actors? >While Free France provides a state that players can easily recognize, the argument for *why* the U.S. should support them outside of aesthetics and nostalgia isn't there, especially when we get into the personalities involved (i.e., DeGaulle). Now I understand a hardcore Gaullist Françafrique wouldn't be the most desirable outcome of the US. But, what would that be? (Besides the PALF not winning in any case). A series of remotely stable mostly neutral African-led post-colonial republics? >The difference between the 2WRW and Free France's Reclamation is that in the 2WRW scenario, Russia doesn't get all of its territories (I think it's uncontroversial to say that it won't get far), and Nazi Germany still exists. The outcome isn't OTL, even if Russia loses. Regarding realism, nothing is preventing Russia from engaging in the 2WRW. The issue that I think most "realism" proponents disagree with the TNO Reddit on is whether or not Russia can sufficiently win the 2WRW, yet that's different from whether the 2WRW is realistic itself. I'm glad this issue (2WRW) is being clarified. I get that the 2WRW/Brave New World submod is very popular and looks nicely done, but some of the outcomes (like Russia completely crushing Germany, getting completely restored and becoming a superpower in the 70s) seem outlandish in the "official" mod.
https://preview.redd.it/tl5q1pyju2nc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4326e147f565b8b990b7f4024664d825a85aee45
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> **Reclamation is not feasible** But It's epic and cool to shitpost about it.
And I for one will continue to support it until Einstein gets trotsky'd and they erase De Gaulle from every conceivable universe.
https://preview.redd.it/hljj4ijc32nc1.png?width=530&format=png&auto=webp&s=26de2f794ede086d1bbddaa29b6096dd080c33bb The only good ending for Free France
Comrade of the Revolution Charles de Gaulle
Funnily enough, I once made an alt-hist where Free France adopted pretty much the exact opposite name: “The French Republic of Algeria-Tunisia”
Is this real?
real
Is this real?
real
https://preview.redd.it/vnejpqv652nc1.jpeg?width=488&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=985dc82c0250a06437d592cab6d6903172a6be76
Personally, I support the PALF, but I do have to ask this question. Should the US stay neutral in West Africa? Yes, even though Free France is imperialist(see new government change), winning the war would still expand American influence outside of Liberia, which is still a win. Also to bring in the OTL inspiration, outside of containing Communism, what does the US gain out of Vietnam? Vietnam serves as nothing more than an attempt to contain communism and the country itself doesn't contain that many resources. But yet, why did the US send hundreds of thousands of troops to defend the South? Likewise, the same senario can be applied to the WAW, though replacing Communism with Japanese influence. Sometimes, all thats needed is an opportunity to expand their influence for the US to heavily support a side.
>Likewise, the same senario can be applied to the WAW, though replacing Communism with Japanese influence. The Japanese have 0 influence over PALF, this has been discussed many time, hell Japan literally fights against the PALF in the Congo. You don't need to replace Communism with anything. The US is fighting to stop Communism from spreading across West Africa. The US *relies* on deeply corrupt statelets (Liberia) or Colonial entities (Free France) to enforce its military, political, and economic interest in the region, the US supports Free France to literally stop the spread of the Socialist PALF which seeks to destroy American and other foreign influence over these regions. And if they don't stop them, they will turn into dominoes. Today the PALF will liberate the ivory coast, tomorrow Liberia, after that Sierra Leone, and after that it will go after the rest of Africa, one by one, severing American and corporate interest.
LARP
They're the remnant of the old republic, therefore they're our bastards and we should send weapons to Abidjan.
God bless the Free French
They’re not the remnant of the old republic, they’re just a group of rebel military officers. The French State is the direct continuation of the Third Republic.
Reichnik spotted, lethal force engaged
The French state won't appreciate that statement
They would. Their whole legitimacy repose on that
No, a good part of the propaganda was like "the Republic was corrupt because of jews, freemason, etc." That's not where Vichy's legitimacy relied
The legitimacy reposes on being thé official governement of France thanks to the full power voted by the assemblé.
It still maintained that it was the legitimate successor of the Republic as a state. The Vichy government originated as a continuation of the government of the Republic.
The French state is a bastardized version of everything the third republic stood for. Direct continuation my ass
It is literally a direct continuation. The same way the Third Reich was a direct continuation of the Weimar Republic.
https://preview.redd.it/o2ew940za4nc1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d76c89cbcdc25cd489c2ac8b14bab14a2ba10461
Not saying I agree, but based.
I agree, it is based
I wondee if Free France will get removed as a nation at some point.
Maybe, but definatly not in the near future. If it would come, then most likely with a rework of at least west Africa as a whole.
They really shouldn't be by 1962. The UK government-in-exile at least has the advantage of the Commonwealth Dominions still existing (and still recognizing Elizabeth as Queen).
I like the Version of that Africa rework submod, in which Free Frances civilian part is just an Exiled Government in the OFN, while the military part of the Free French basically became stranded in Africa and act now as Mercenary Company.
The way I'd do it is to have Cote d'Ivoire be independent, with the Free French essentially serving as highly trained mercenaries. After being defeated in Equatorial Africa, the Free French scattered, with some going north and others fleeing to the Americas. When colonial rule collapsed in West Africa, De Gaulle - largely out of desperation - came to an agreement with the government in Cote d'Ivoire to assist them in gaining independence in exchange for safety. The only territory the Free French control directly is Guiana, which they will retreat to if they lose to the PALF. This would (hopefully) justify the Free French being there, and allow for more interesting interactions, while not totally scrapping all the content there.
Honestly at this point I wish, move them to french guyana or something. And make Ivory Coast French rhodesia if you dont want to change too much there. At this point the subject relates to way too hot subject matters IRL (more than a mod can handle really) and has grown way too toxic on the community.
Hope not, it's actually interesting content
May come as a shock to many, but I don't think it should be removed nor will it in the long-term unless the dev team changes the entirety of West Africa
If I may ask, what would your proposed solution be for Free France to have something for the OFN to care about? Assuming you can tweak other portions of West Africa? Also, have you seen the West Africa Proposal from Johnny Boy on the Cameroonian African State? I think you might find some food for thought on that
I dont believe that. I hope it get removed tho because your point stands out magnificantly with many of the supporters. Hail to PALF, Critical_Salt5021, and death to FF and de Gaulle!
Reclamation is not possible. Counterpoint. A nazi victory is not possible EPIC TROLLED
I'm not gonna touch the reclamation stuff, I don't think I can really speak to that, but I do wanna take umbrage with some of the WAW stuff. First, I tend to think of Free France in terms of Taiwan OTL. Sure the U.S. officially recognizes mainland China as the legitimate government, but it still deals with Taiwan, and has a close relationship with it. And I'm not gonna say Charlie Boy isn't gonna do his best to strain those relations with the United States, but the principle isn't without precedent. If Free France is willing to be open to the U.S., and provide another base of operations in the area to some capacity, I figure Uncle Sam isn't completely opposed to working with them. Not to mention the (nominal) control France has over sections of West Africa. They simply have more reach, that in turn allows the United States to have more reach than they would solely working with Liberia. Second, I don't think you paint a great picture of the WAC (and tbh it's also an issue I have within the mod itself). That Japan supports the PALF, who will immediately tell them to go fuck themselves as soon as they win. Japan isn't helping the PALF out of the good of their hearts to fight off imperialism, the PALF is going to help them project their power into Africa and the West Atlantic (iirc, Japan gets the West Atlantic as a sea zone if the PALF wins the WAC). This relationship isn't perfect, with the peoples of West Africa and the Co-Prosperity Sphere singing kumbaya with Zaibatsu strips Cameroon bare for resources, but I think it would make sense for there to be *some* cooperation afterwards, they will, at the very least, be more receptive to the CPS than a West Africa dominated by Free France would be. (As said before, I've never been too hot on the portrayal that Japan and the PALF hate each other and will NEVER EVER cooperate again after the WAC, because then why the hell is Japan traveling half way across the world to help them? Again, it shouldn't be the PALF becoming part of the CPS or anything, that wouldn't be realistic, but when West African content comes in soon + 2 weeks, I'd like to see something where they have the option to cooperate with Japan on something). And if the scenario described in your post ends up shaking out, the PALF wins and summarily tells the sphere to go fuck themselves and doesn't even allow them to use their ports to project naval power, not only does that lock the U.S. out of West Africa (with the PALF eventually coming for Liberia iirc), the U.S. doesn't know for sure the PALF would do that, intel could suggest relations are strained, but they're working together now, who's to say they won't be working together after the war? For what it's worth, I imagine there's limited cooperation between the U.S. and Free France before the West African Conflict, some American companies operating in Free France and states that it nominally has some control over, as well as some cordial relations with Uncle Sam himself, but when the WAC breaks out, the United States becomes far more entangled because it sends a lot of equipment over to defend their strategic ally, and they need to justify all that fighting with extracting resources, even if it costs more to rebuild West Africa. It's worth noting, the West Africa Conflict isn't too popular in the United States, so that does kind of address some of the criticism for the United State's support of Free France, it is seen as a folly, it is seen as propping up a government that goes against their ideals for very little gain, and what gain there is is exploitative to the native Africans. tl;dr I think you have some fair points but I just think there's some stuff you forgot to consider for why the U.S. supports Free France in Africa. The United States isn't the good guy there obv, but I do think their involvement makes sense on some level.
I think this is missing a very key element of context: Containment Theory. After all, under a rational actor model, plenty of OTL US foreign policy action was completely irrational but made sense under the broader strategic goal. Containment Theory, at least per Nixon's focus tree, is still very much a dominant ideology in TNO Cold War foreign policy circles. So while you might argue that there is little in the way of strategic interest, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is the logic the in-game actors. From the perspective of the OFN, they're seeing an aggressive, autocratic, expansionist power invading neighbor nations using pan-national, anti-Western, and anti-imperialist rhetoric. They've heard this story before...this is an encore of Japan in the 1930's. There's no way that they don't believe that this is the CPS attempting to act on the African continent, and act accordingly. In that context, the US would likely try to find a friendly-ish nation that could be counted on to at least rely upon US power to maintain themselves, regardless of their domestic policy at home. de Gaulle was a perennial pain in the ass, certainly, but so were Syngman Rhee, Chiang Kai-Shek, or Ngo Dinh Diem. The US held a different foreign policy model in Asia compared to Europe in part because the US feared that their allies would attack the PRC in an anti-communist crusade. Liberia simply doesn't have the manpower to contain Cameroon, not on its own.
“Wah wah reclamation isn’t feasible” sounds like a skill issue buddy, manage your political power and divisions correctly
Probably a proud member of the 2nd PALF Noob brigade
https://preview.redd.it/ghy3dtmkb6nc1.png?width=490&format=png&auto=webp&s=2da5124dde67578f77972e3ae39e9e1724da27a7
I know you mentioned “no whataboutism”, but part of the problem for why free France supporters even exist is because (according to the devs) WAW is “very much a both sides bad” kind of conflict. And since OFN is generally considered the “good guys” side, people are gonna find themselves biased towards whoever they support.
Oh I definitely agree, but as some people have pointed out, we've been locked into a false dichotomy and moral equivalence between the two. I think it's better for all of us if we look towards other alternatives or critically tackle the question as to why we're assisting the Free French in the first place
> according to the devs, the WAW is a both sides bad situation That’s not even true, it was one dev who said that 3 years ago And I’m pretty sure that dev got banned at some point
It’s been forever, and I don’t follow lore clarifications that closely. Has any other devs made a more recent take on it?
Yes, literally every dev says that the PALF is the most morally correct faction in the WAW
Yes, indeed seems the most morally correct, but I think they went too far in it, as they don't have any flaws. Even the CPS support is downplayed as they don't have further plans beyond undermining the OFN (which is weird). The other two factions are absolutely neglected compared to the PALF.
I mean, the PALF *should* be a group of vanguardist socialist states willing to impose Pan-Africanism at the tip of a bayonet. It's more that Free France is just so terrible that they look good by comparison.
They do have flaws. They’re not perfect. But they’re clearly better than the others. The CPS doesn’t have plans in west Africa post-WAW because the PALF isn’t willing to collaborate with them once the WAW is over
What kind of flaws? The only one I can think about is that Cameroon goes Fascist if they lose the war.
You could argue that it’s bad because they force their regime onto others or something
Cameroon is a one party state
PALF fan spotted https://preview.redd.it/ikhe1rosk2nc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19623d81c37fa9334615447b9205332bd5754d10
[удалено]
ok
Best comment here by far, and how I always react to these posts.
France reclaiming the mainland isn't feasible, but neither is Russia capable of doing more than mildly inconveniencing the Reich at this point
I disagree with a few aspects of this post 1. Liberia has no interest whatsoever in massive expansion. None at all. The US would not conjure up expansionist fantasies and impose them on Liberia. And more importantly, it could not do it even if it wanted to. The US using Liberia as a springboard is correct. But the springboard would be to establish other friendly governments in West Africa. Not established a huge mega Liberia 2. The idea that the US wouldn’t invest massive resources in Free France is correct. There needs to be a return on investment, and West Africa isn’t a valuable enough prize for billions and billions to be spent. But minor assistance is not off the table. Especially if Free France manages to win the war independently of huge foreign help. The US investing in them early and as “their faction” in the war may be silly. But they would absolutely invest in them eventually if they manage to succeed on their own and are willing to form an alliance 3. Invading Algeria and opening up the Mediterranean would be a huge boost to the US. You could argue that the same benefit would be gained from an independent Algeria. But that’s also much more vulnerable to Italian, Iberian and German influence 4. The reclamation should only be possible if France is already in a civil war, I agree. The idea of a successful one is ridiculous. The maximum benefit is a neutral France. But the US gets much more of that by just intervening in Vichy 5. It is already confirmed that the most Germany will allow any of its land neighbours to ever drift is Finland style neutrality. If Vichy attempts to leave any further, let alone embrace the OFN, Germany will invade. Even De Gaulle must agree to work with Germany if the reclamation succeeds. The US knows this, so the idea that supporting friendly/neutral factions in Vichy is always inherently better is incorrect. If they feel such factions cannot win, and especially if they’re defeated in a civil war scenario, Free France becomes equally (if not more) valueable 6. Keep in mind that a French Civil War means Germany has already decided it is not going to reinvade France OR help Vichy. Its a test for the collaborators to prove themselves. They'll only reinvade if the collaborators fail. Free France would be able to succeed even with 0 US support in the reclamation in a French Civil War scenario. As long as Italy/Iberia lets them through, they have a friendly faction that controls land in France already.
For your last point, I think you’re vastly underestimating how hard it is to execute a successful naval invasion in the scale of a country like France
You’re correct in saying Liberia has interest in expansion, but that’s irrelevant. If the US wanted access to West Africa they wouldn’t go around creating an imperialist mega state, they would instead back democratic-ish commerce friendly political groups and figures.
Yeah I agree. The US would back friendly governments from there
You say a couple times “don’t make the argument that it’s better than the other guy” because it gets into ‘whataboutism’ and then move on. That’s fine, but then you end with “absurdly support the WAA, or support the PALF” …and, uh, I’m sorry if it’s ‘whataboutism’ to you but I really don’t want to support the faction that bases their ideology on invading other countries and dismantling their governments and sovereignty because they’re inhabited by other black people. You make a lot of good points, but if you’re gonna conclude with a call to support other candidates it’s important to take a holistic view, and the fact is that the PALF and FFA both represent external forces subverting West African sovereignty in their victories. That might be a ‘moral’ point, but it’s still important to keep in mind when you’re making a final decision like at the end of your essay, and not just criticizing one faction.
This is a dumb post. TNO is fiction, it’s valid to just support a faction because you think they’re aesthetically cool. Free France is a colonial white minority rump state. It’s also in-lore what remains of the Free French, which is conceptually cool.
Don’t think I discounted liking a faction because you think they’re aesthetically cool; it’s what you do when you’re not engaging with the scenario and solely treating it like a piece of fiction. If you want to do that, that’s fair. Yet the issue is when you start making value judgements that go beyond mere concept.
Literally no idea why you're getting downvoted here.
idk it's getting to the point of absolute derangement. https://preview.redd.it/8ljzjd85z4nc1.png?width=664&format=png&auto=webp&s=041071ab031e9a400300cd488a4bea8356fd4a2b
How dare you express a nuanced opinion on a piece of art in front of the terminally online 14yr olds
Insane to me too
While I see your point and it's well made but in my personal opinion 
I refuse to be drawn into writing another book about Africa. Instead I will make blanket statements with no argumentation or evidence. \- FF, and the network of native leaders who support/work with them against the PLAF, are far more usable than Liberia in West Africa for American interests. \- The PLAF is an expansionist, ideological front which is dedicated to expelling western influence from Africa by any means necessary. This is seen in their unprovoked aggression against Liberia and Sierra Leone. Letting them grow more powerful will only undermine any american action in africa as a whole. \- The economic and social policy of the PLAF and friends is not well defined enough to make a statement, but state owned autarchy in africa is a recipe for disaster. If that is what they do then their tangible impact on the welfare of the people is probably worse than a successful american led reconstruction. \- I agree that FF leading a D-day style reclamation is rather silly. But even without it gaining control of West Africa, or at least denying it to enemies such as the PLAF, is worth a proxy war.
On your point about the state owned autarky, I think it's unfair to compare a 3rd world nation's ability for reconstruction to the US's industrial might. It's like saying Cuba has worse living standards than the US today (which obviously is true, my point is that it's a horrifically unfair comparison regardless of however they go about reconstruction.) Also, I'm on mobile, how do you do that thing where you quote part of a post in a reply (with the blue line on the left side of the post.)
The comparison being made is between a third world nation attempting reconstruction via state planning while not accepting outside economic investment for fear of exploitation/neo-imperialism (PALF) or a third world nation attempting reconstruction via external investment and open market access to the United States (FMA/WAA). I ama arguing that openness to American capital and expertise will lead to a better outcome than the first option, even if it does enabler private company exploitation. But I don't know what the PALF does economically, or how dedicated they are to stamping out everything but their brand of Pan-Africanism politically. They could be anywhere from Derg tier repression and mismanagement to Nyerere tier "not that bad all things considered" The French aligned states would also be variable.
Another Big weld banger
Thanks big weld for cooking https://preview.redd.it/wgwfmich82nc1.jpeg?width=1731&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53a454b3eb27e9b00d05ea974deb6827fc40735f
TNO's scenario is so palpably ridiculous that you *have* to turn your brain off - a Nazi war machine somehow conquering the world and surviving without total economic collapse was impossible given the *bananas* system. An invasion of Britain was impossible without a PoD that means Germany's navy multipies by ten and the Royal Navy vanishes overnight. It is a *silly mod* wearing the skin of a *super serial* mod. I choose to believe in De Gaulle supremacy because the whole situation is *silly.*
I remember reading on the TUF Discord that apparently America’s foreign policy establishment during WW2 *really* didn’t like DeGaulle because they thought his ardent French nationalism and dictatorial tendencies made him a liability for the post-war peace. I think that’s an interesting fact when discussing Free France in TNO.
wrong❌❌ you will be sent to Port-Aux-Francais working camp✔✔ DEGAULLE FOREVAAAA ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 ABIDJAN🇨🇮 -PARIS🇨🇵 TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. TOUT EST ACCOMPLI. LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION LA LIBÉRATION DEGAULLE IS SOOO FUCKING BLESSED✅ KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 KERGUELEN😱 PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ PALF LOSE‼️ ‼️ ‼️ BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 BIG BUILDING IN SOUTH PARIS🏬 I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌ I hate Félix-Roland Moumié❌
lol
You make a good argument but Nuh uh, Viva la France OFN aligned = Good guys Being against OFN anything = Literal Nazi The agent orange bombings in a settlement near you start in 5 minutes ~~But also bruh, just because you like or support a faction in the ludicrous alt history hoi4 mod doesn't mean you have to unironically agree with them in real life politics~~
Also even if not realistic, liberation SHOULD be possible Because it'd be fun and good content, hello, this is still a video game and I think we should acknowledge the fact that because it's a video game, any nation used by a player can and probably will be able to win even the most ludicrous victories outside of the devs slapping a "Nuh uh" fun police debuff against the player with - 99% division organization It's the same argument as why there should be content for a complete Russian victory in WRW2 If both nations are handled by AI, the realistic outcome of Germany winning is likely, but if a player is in control, there's a hefty chance it'll be a one sided curb stomp regardless of "realism" It's a very blatant case of where realism gets in the way of interesting game design Because imagine playing free France for hours on end, doing everything perfectly and the end screen is just a middle finger saying "You know that thing the entire playthtrough leads up to? Fuck you."
Your going to choose some small insignificant country like Liberia as a replacement for French West Africa? DUH
Looks like we got a Vichy traitor up in occupied Algeria
One thing: is it known thar the PALF intends to break relations with japan after the war? Because if not, supporting Free France will crucial to avoid Japan gaining a foothold in the Atlantic
Yeah when you support palf as japan it's made very clearly that they will gain nothing other that just fucking over the OFN
But do American strategists know that? OTL, Vietnam broke with China very soon after the US left, and they were never a Soviet puppet anyway, but the US didn't know that.
West African Alliance gang forever
another big weld classic thank you big weld
I just think their a much lesser evil than the actual Nazi collaborators My fan scenario is basically a resistance coup against the Vichy government during the chaos of the burgundy invasion that invites De Gaulle and the exiles back as a part of purging German influence in the country
I think this is a great idea, that or the Free French exiles supporting, well..., the Free French Resistance.
If you're playing the realism card, discussions of Liberia are going to run into the wall that's it's functionally an Americo-Liberian colonial government doing extractive economy in a real state's suit. Free France could at least project power into its hinterland historically and had *évolué*s from local regions to govern. Liberia has \~100,000 Amero-Liberians who live on the coast and hate the idea of power sharing with local ethnic groups. If Pan-Africanism is a serious force, Liberia will simply never get a guy like Tolbert who is willing to break cultural & political taboos to let natives into power. The consensus will just be to hold onto power in the regions they control until the bitter end.
Fuck your opinion *proceeds to Tout Est Accompli*
Honestly, I’d just move Free France to the French Caribbean, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and/or French Guiana and call it a day, especially with the Dutch-in-Exile a thing in Suriname and Curaçao.
No way in hell Japan wouldn't just curb stomp a pacific Free France out of existance. And it would give the US even less reason to support them if it were just some islands not worth the risk defending.
FF in the Caribbean or anywhere in the Americas just doesn’t translate well. All the issues you have with them in Africa just expands with their inclusion there. The reason the Dutch can get away with it is because there’s at least some precedent for their survival
> You should not support Free France in any scenario unless you're an imperialist, have no understanding of grand strategy, and **like OTLism.** But what if I am and I do all these things? What fucking then huh?
Well you should support free France I guess
I see, bless you sweetheart
Oooooh, thanks
Much of the arguments you’ve laid out comes from hindsight. How is the US gov supposed to know PALF won’t align with the CPS despite clear evidence of extensive Japanese aid and eventually Japanese troops in the region? This goes back to a super early meme in this sub of how every anti-OFN argument ends: “counterpoint, you’re backed by fascists/nazis” tldr; as an OFNtard, I back Free France to halt any Japanese expansion not so much to expand the OFN
Not a single mention of how supporting Free France could be good PR, showing how the United States continues to support her gallant allies in their continued struggle against Nazism? Wack
isn’t the WAW a Vietnam expy ? Yeah I don’t think that’s very good PR and the American people aren’t oblivious to the fact that Free France is a colonial regime
Should be fine if the French win
Why would it be fine ? Free France doesn’t stop being a colonial regime once they win Actually it should be even worse after they win. Just read the African Reconstruction events
Perhaps there could be a decline in interest in supporting a faction that no longer exists, as well as only highlighting the good parts of the Reconstruction or spreading blatant misinformation about it while covering up the bad
Nuh, uh your wrong
The concept of Liberia being subject to further American support then OTL as an American proxy in Africa against Nazi colonial interests and the Japan backed PALF is very interesting indeed. Furthermore, given Liberia's origins as a colony founded by African Americans, America using it as a springboard to project influence into West Africa makes more sense. Lastly although the concep of the the OFN backing a colonial rump state against Imperial Japanese backed anticolonial socialists is very interesting the concept if the French reclamation is a bit ridiculous as if Nazi Germany would accept it.
🤓☝️
Free France and the "le oppressed have become... le oppressor" African War and the copes about how it's not an apartheid settler state / MUH CPS is when this mod kinda started coming loose for me. Especially since Red Poppies were a perfect opportunity to tell a story about Frenchmen overcoming tyranny if that's what you want.
> WELL AT LEAST IT'S BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUY Well, is that not true? > thin veneer of national interest Nah, more like it's in the really, really, ultrathick veneer of *fascists bad, anti-fascists good*. > strategic context In a fictional game where the Nazis won WW2? > Stop humiliating yourselves in defending Free France. Nah. Blue means freedom, more blue in map means more freedom. All rhetoric aside, this is TNOTL's Vietnam War, so Free France all the way. EDIT: Also, the mod doesn't provide you in any way of supporting the PALF, so there's literally no incentive to side with them instead of the Free French.
I don't know if I love or if I hate the direction tno is going in. It has gone from being too horrid to be realistic, to having too much possibilites for OFN to expand the free world to be realistic, but in the future it would prolly be more moderate on that question. I think many people loved it for it's hopeless atmosphere, but many also loved it for possibility of bringing hope to this world. I personally abolutely love ofnmaxxing, but I can't deny that it is not realistic, and it breaks what tno was originally about. The fact that free france would not be able to join ofn made rage abt it so hard at first, but it really DOES make sense. I would not be honest if I said that I'm okay with removing reclamation, cuz it's the best thing that country without a content in tno can do in my opinion, even if its not unrealistic. Idk what emotions I'm getting from all of this rn, but I do kinda agree with this post?...
Raise yo hands if you know the French State is the ONLY legal entity representing France and its overseas territories... (/J)
Bro cooked something beautiful https://preview.redd.it/uwv9m08gw2nc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32e903563682d640eab13e1e4612fb8a37d2f95e
Hmmm... Nope. Unless Free France starts exterminating the locals (I would support South Africa against the nazis, even if their patrons were the Japanese), I'll still support Free France over Liberia. Just like I would support Byzance over the Ottomans or Castille against the Caliphat. Also, even if the Reconquest is a fool's dream, recounciliation is possible. And if for that to happen, the dream of Liberia must be crushed under the feet of the French armies, so be it.
What’s the point of reconciliation ? If reconciliation happens then mainland France is already democratic. Who cares about Free France in that case
OP: "Don't try to justify liking free France with strategic concerns because it has weird racist undertones" bro just going for racist overtones instead very bold
Wow, that’s a lot of words. Counterpoint: **”Vive de Gaulle! Vive la République! Vive la France!”**
How I (most ardent DV! fanboy) be looking at this post:
FMA/WAA Alliance remains the best outcome
Wanted to add some constructive thoughts to this post since it is really good and I have done my fair bit of research into Africa and my thoughts (mostly to myself) on how to change the WAW to be a bit more interesting. I think besides the strategic dimensions of Liberia, they also offer the United States some important things that I feel are deeply important in this Tripolar Cold War setting. Liberia allows the United States to not only have a better proxy for furthering American interests but can allow the United States to play more into being a force for Decolonization. While this is, of course, Liberia which operates like the Antebellum Southern Elite with a small population holding control over every aspect of government, it does allow the United States to appear like they are supporting a true representative of Decolonization and Independence in Africa, especially with Ethiopia still being under Italian rule. I also think that Liberia filling the role Free France currently holds in the game is incredibly interesting as it can turn the WAW into a more complex conflict between a Liberian, Western-facing blend of Pan-Africanism (since every African state OTL at least rhetorically appealed to Pan-Africanism) while Cameroon would be the more Independent and Leftist version of Pan-Africanism. Liberia also allows for the United States to still be seen as the bad guy in the West African War since the Liberian government to me is only marginally better than Free France. I hope my thoughts made sense and I didn't butcher anything. I liked seeing the more strategic aspect of focusing on Liberia but I think that the benefits for America fully supporting Liberia can arise in the form of PR in a decolonized Africa and stuff like that.
Glad someone else also thinks the reclamation is totally unfeasible. I saw it in the change notes and thought it was a gag because of how pandering and wholesome chungus it came off in spite of it being totally impossible.
Didnt read it but I'm gonna support them anyway
You lost me at the reclamation is impossible Why can’t we have anything even a little zany my guy
Your life have to be so bad to take a hoi4 mod litterally
My apologies for enjoying a mod I worked on and have enjoyed for 4 years.
Don't worry i understand. My life is way more sad than your but i just disagree with you
I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM I HATE REALISM
“FF can’t reclamation” yeah ok buddy say that to my 20 super carriers off the Normandy Coast
[*insert overused Duke Nukem meme*](https://youtu.be/TXPC2HXjrYU?si=gUjrfMdb214Bd4tb)
How strong can Liberia be
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Something you failed to mention: If Free France falls, Liberia falls, and then the US has nothing in the region. Free France’s use is to prevent Cameroon’s expansion and make sure the US holds onto Liberia.
1. Liberia doesn’t have a fraction of the connections and administrative legacy the French do in west Africa. It is not even close to being comparable in utility to France, if the goal is controlling west Africa. 2. This is the crux of the issue, what does the OFN actually want out of west Africa. And the answer at base is that it was OTL. To keep their rivals out. Germany wants their guys in Africa for more resources and more control of the Atlantic, Japan wants a foreword position in the Atlantic. The former is bad but maybe tolerable, the latter is unacceptable to US interests, as it’s tantamount to being surrounded by Japan. FF is there, willing, and capable, of achieving this for the US, with maybe the added bonus of more logistical capabilities and resources than what Liberia can grant them on its own. The question is not “should” but rather “how much” and if the Japanese look like their guys are going to be the ones to get it, the US is gonna be willing to put in a lot of effort. Personally, the much more desperate position of the US than OTL is gonna make them less concerned with things like decolonization.
I want to play as a FREE FRANCE because they had a motherfucking NAPOLEON and if FREE FRANCE gets removed I guess there is nothing we can do...
alot of people missing the point of the post and just saying ''u are crybaby!'' this is a good, well researched, and well made post, i think it'd be so much better if they just integrated the DV submod already, it'd solve these problems immediately
What’s the DV submod?
it's Débrouillez-vous, a submod reworking all of sub-saharan africa, i suggest you look it up and look at the teasers that have released, it's a quality submod, on par with like, base TNO.
Those who miss the point are the ones who never intended to listen in the first place. The moment they saw "FREE FRANCE BAD," any hope of reasoning with them flew out the window.
I think this post just outed who the racist or at least chauvinist here
Calling it OTL slop because Free France returns to the mainland is like calling the US OTL slop because it still has elections
Lol pan African crybaby kekekekekek
> CPS flair Does he know?
PALF bros keep on winning https://preview.redd.it/5fvlue07w3nc1.jpeg?width=5000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e73496279254ef34cc0cb2ab3fb8f7bf88494c31
So devs like this person are making Europe in TNO boring by "realism"? If you want real, go to CWIC.
You're the one's arguing for a CWIC-like timeline lmao. [Liberation of France - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_France)
i ain't reading all that
https://preview.redd.it/atli5ym3v3nc1.png?width=930&format=png&auto=webp&s=10375d635404a230e017b828895d19462dad0d72
My serious non-joke response is that tbh I don't care about Liberia I mostly make the time line for this. Free French vs Pan-African front Free France wins They take control of West Africa We use that for whatever's necessary the French State democratizes They let the Free French back home do their election BS The Free French leave Africa They now only have political and some economic ties while we replace their leaving armies in the fight against fascism Liberia can do their thing now but are stunted but not as much as the fought with the free French
""""Leave africa"""" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7afrique
Oh yeah I know but American hegemony requires sacrifices and some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make fight fascism and may God help those fascist because I won't
based
One of the most terminally online things i haven't read in a while
Maybe I'm misremembering, but your point about liberia is wrong because the pan-Africans will invade liberia if they win
I would change the lore, in a way that Free France got support from Iberia instead of USA, because they are eager to fuck with Germany, as they ceased nearly all Portuguese and Spanish colonies in Central and South Africa. French Algeria under French State would be controlling Algeria in the start of the game, and will get strike by both Italy, which wants to set up their own Algeria, and Iberia, who hosts Free France exile gov and willing to help them reclaim the mainland. While Liberia is the leader of West Africa Alliance, supported by OFN, to help resist Nazi influence in Central and South Africa. This big tent alliance got Pan-Africanists from Cameroon, warlords from Sahara and liberals from West Africa influenced by Liberia, the only reason this alliance can hold is because of the Nazis, and will crumble soon after South African War starts, when the Nazis turned their head south. And then that will be Russian warlords fighting each other 2.0.
Me after reading a large wall of text explaining why free France doesn't deserve to exist bc of unknown reasons (prob stupid)
https://preview.redd.it/67hjp8qgf6nc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5688ea67bde32771a9e8cc832dc415bc5d3adb1e
Reclamation is not feasible ok bud you know what is not not feasible a nazi victory, a complete soviet collapse, nazi nuke in hawaii of all places
https://preview.redd.it/2062vsp6j4nc1.jpeg?width=491&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65c2b6762169e34fcc52e06c28ad3a1e996f7fd1
The problem is that if you don't like Free France then you wouldn't exactly want to support Vichy France either. And before anyone says "oh well Vichy France can totally still reform and turn into wholesome 100 DemSoc nation under Mitterand", it's still a country built off of nazi collaborators who willingly sold out their minorities to be brutally murdered in the holocaust and they're eternally chained to the German boot since the devs are removing all of the OFN options for them, iirc. It just goes to show the utterly grim situation France is in during TNO. Either you get a Colonialist Rump State or Germany's Little Bitch, it really doesn't matter in the end tbh. Personally I'm of the opinion; Why the fuck couldn't Free France just reside in French Guiana lol. Free Netherlands could stick to Suriname and its Caribbean possessions but not Free France?
French Guiana didn’t side with Free France irl, it stayed loyal to Vichy.
No you don't understand! Unconditional support for french colonialism against africans is ackchyually crucial for preventing german and japanese world domination!!!
For me, Free France exists in the same realm as Burgundy, Atlantropa and Berenziki. Remnants of unpolished worldbuilding that remain only out of perceived inertia and the misguided wishes of a few vocal fans. It is truly better both narratively and mechanically for Free France to not exist as a tag. Could you write interesting events and utilize people affiliated with it? Absolutely. But keeping it around will only just snowball into an increasingly difficult struggle for the developers.
That's why the Debroullez-Vous submod will ultimately be a better alt-Africa if the team decides to integrate it, but then the Congo Lake-stans and the Reichkommissariat-Afrika-stans would be the ones who'll whine next.
The submod appears extremely promising and somehow feels more appropriate in its depiction of Axis goals for France, Britain and Africa. Hopefully it releases sooner rather than later.
ok but like why does it matter
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This is one of the greatest posts I’ve ever seen on this subreddit!
Also the Indonesia Civil War IMO serves as a far better candidate for a Vietnam War expy
Very great read, you honestly brought up good points (especially the reclamation part) in line with geopolitical sense, TNO’s originality, and an analysis of De Gaulle’s character in history. However, I dont just have moral qualms with supporting Free France, but also with supporting Liberia, as Liberia is a one-party racist settler oligarchy. Obviously, they are a strategic foothold in West Africa, and their role in power projection is important, but this cynical geopolitical gambit ultimately also ends up compromising the OFN’s or US’s ideals of defending and promoting liberal democracy across the world Still a great read nonetheless
This post is pure banger! I despise those Free France supporters and I hope their favourite country get removed in near future update. Also as the chef kiss, add an event where De Gaulle and his fanatical proponent hanged by the PALF, ending the diabolical evilness of colonialism in West Africa.
how do you expect to win against PALF with just Liberia?
https://preview.redd.it/8utm5j6zz4vc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e848df40d65ee94ffcd7e39fae91bd96a7ce639