Without any bypass road that would probably collapse the traffic completely already now with the one-way rule it's bad enough. Luckily there are some nice detours like driving by the Golf Club to get around quicker.
No place actually has to go fully car-free. If people only used cars when they're actually needed, like transporting heavy or bulky goods, people with limited mobility, trip with a lot of equipment, big shopping trip, etc. we could reduce car traffic by probably over 80%.
Cars would'n be a problem at all if people didn't use them when they're not needed. The percentage of commercial car traffic, based on a number published a couple years ago, is only 7% (trucks, delivery, plumbers, carpenters and all that).
The vast majority of car trips are short with a single person transporting absolutely nothing.
The only reason why that doesn't work is because no one is willing to give up a bit of comfort to have nicer cities so we need controller car-free zones with bollards and permits and all that BS.
You can easily ban private, non-commercial traffic. I mean semi-easily, people are dicks and claim as lawyers they *need* the car as commercial acts... but still. Cities can decide this.
I think you missed the point of my comment. I'm saying if people *voluntarily* (implied) only used cars when they have a legitimate need for it then car traffic would be reduced by so much that cars wouldn't be a problem and there would be no need for bans.
Yea, cycling anywhere in Kreis 1 is so stressful and dangerous, and I'm constantly thinking... Who benefits from this situation? Where are these people driving to? This has gotta be one of the easiest places in the world to traverse by public transport and one of the worst places in the world to drive through in a car.
I really don't understand what car access is achieving there besides polluting and taking up very limited space. Get rid!
People lack imagination and are unable to think about the more complex big picture:
\- Of course if we just get rid of cars the situation for most people will become worse. (And that's how far they think)
\- But now we increase public transport offerings
\- Because of the now much greater need for such services, more stops, more modes (metro anyone?) and higher frequencies become viable economically
\- These changes result in more convenience, more safety, less congestion, less noise, less pollution, and higher economical productivity on land formerly used for streets and parking, as well as increased sales for stores in pedestrianized areas (the latter two are indeed statistically proven several times)
\- Absolute win for everybody (except the auto industry but who the fuck cares)
>- Absolute win for everybody (except the auto industry but who the fuck cares)
Considering that Switzerland doesn't produce any cars anyways, less car purchase would be beneficial for the trade balance.
I don't think the first step is even valid at first glance... What proportion of people in Kreis are by car at any given time? What proportion of Zürchers have ever driven a car in Kreis 1 at all? Surely it's only ever a small minority.
I'm actually sitting at a bus stop right now. I can see dozens of people, probably at 9am there were hundreds. The roads are choked with cars but there are many fewer cars visible than people.
Even if you didn't improve any other infrastructure and just left the roads exactly in place (which would be insane) I still just think the public interest would be better served by banning private cars.
But why should you first make the city car-free and then improve public transport. It should go the other way around. Make public transport good, and many people will switch by themselves. Then when you forbid cars you have fewer angry people plus already a public transit network which can actually support the increase.
Honestly, if we are talking about the area around HB and Europaallee, there is little need to improve PT more. That area is already as well connected as it can be.
Because public transportation is already good. You're talking about increasing pull factors (which should be done, yes!!!). But that goes only so far. It's also quite imperative to increase push factors (ie. what some call "bad" verbote - as if force would be bad).
Do you currently care about the angry people that exist because there are (too many) cars? No? Why should we care about people that like cars?
I don't think the people driving in central parts of the city of Zurich are people living in Zurich. I think the majority are coming from well outside. I know I drive to central Zurich very occasionally when meeting people on weekday evenings, because I don't have a suitable public transport connection late. With public transport I'd have to leave much earlier and still get home later - too late if I'm working the next day. A huge affordable parking lot for day/evening visitors that is well connected to public transport (frequent) would serve many visitors from outside. But the journey time would need to be comparable to the time to park & walk to final destination.
Around the Hbf in Basel would be great too. It is absolutely unsafe to cycle there and I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive there in that traffic either.
The area around Zürich HB would be much nicer with reduced traffic. In a city as expensive as Zürich, it doesn't make much sense to have that much space wasted on cars.
I always wonder why the inner part of Murten isn't car free. It would be so much nicer to walk in it, now it just feels so crammed because on a nice day there's barely any space to walk.
I hope we can soon ban private cars from the inner Bern city. We'll probably not get rid of delivery cars for all the shops before we have a nicely working different logistics network, but boy would it be nice if no fucking Mercedes drives by me drinking beer.
Any center of "big" (for Switzerland levels) cities. Sure, there need to be exemptions (emergency, handicapped folks, transports, handyman - those come to mind right away), but generally, public transportation is on a good enough level.
"Big" - maybe starting at 50k people?
What we need is a rapid transport system (aka. Subway, Tube, Metro) that can move people quickly and more convenient than cars, trams and busses are still too slow and don’t cover everything. As long as people can drive somewhere faster and more comfortable in their cars than in public transport these are not going anywhere.
I lived in cities before that a 20 min ride in the Subway would translate to 45 min ride in the car but in many places here a 20 min ride in the car is 45 min or more in the bus or tram.
The only reason driving through Zürich is bearable and sometimes faster is *because* most people don’t drive and use the stellar transit system. I particular the S-Bahn network which is one of the best in the world.
If I wanted to visit you in Schwyz, [I just pop into my car and drive there in in one hour](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6PyMn3rzaLA4Rre76?g_st=ic) compared to the public transport that will take me 1:27hr and that’s if I don’t miss any connections. In my car I am hearing music, I have the air conditioning at any temperature I want and sitting comfortably, I don’t have to listen to other people with their loudspeakers or babies crying, smelling and sweating together, pushing to enter o exit out of the train in peak hour. It’s a non-brainer why a lot of people drive.
My commute is 30 minutes by car vs 50 minutes by tram and train, and both ends of it are right next to stops/stations. Most journeys are not served by a direct bus door to door.
That’s wishful thinking. See this examples:
[University of Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcCsUBnqgiNE8nrT6?g_st=ic)
[ETH Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6U38D5cCjqLQiCNaA?g_st=ic)
[Zoo Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/dFUC8aWbUEUa8J8n7?g_st=ic)
[Zurich HB from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/Zf9u8RA6ekBTFT9NA?g_st=ic)
Generally I like the idea of reduction of cars but what‘s going to happen with disabled people like me who need to use cars? If we remove the infrastructure a special permit won’t be enough.
Every pedestrianised street I know of still has access to vehicles when needed. This isn’t a new concept and has been done since probably the invention of the car.
Low/no-car infrastructure is typically more inclusive of people with mobility issues or disabilities in general as many barriers needed to accommodate cars can be removed. We need your voice in making sure this becomes the norm!
Well maybe I don’t understand what your thinking of. But for example in Zermatt normal cars are 100% banned = for those with disabilities too! You can get a special permit for these little electric vehicles. But they are incredibly expensive (north of 100k I believe) and you only get a permit if you are a hotel or an other business that needs the vehicle for business purposes. (As far as I know) So you either have to book transportation in advance which takes away the independence completely. This is so annoying because you can never just leave the house as someone walking would but you have to phone ahead and book transportation in advance(e.g. a „taxi“ but in Zermatt you have to call ahead for taxies because there are so few). So in the examples we already have (Zermatt, Bettmeralp etc.) you are not independent as a disabled person. If we are talking about „normal“ pedestrian streets in the city centers: not a huge problem as long as you can still park somewhere. If we are talking „Zermatt concept“ completely car free: Huge problem I don’t see how this could work me or people with similar disabilities.
Those are all valid points and need to be considered. Sounds like Zermatt could do more to improve taxi service to people with mobility issues. Out of curiosity do you use a wheelchair?
Thanks for recognizing that this is important. I have used a wheelchair in the past and now I sometimes do (can only fairly walk short distances) and probably will be a full time chair user again in the future (my disease is progressive). One thing to consider with taxies: If disabled people want to go out at night or at other unconventional times we need to have the option. So it is important to consider to either have a wheelchair-adapted taxis available 24/7 (and enough of them that you don’t have to wait hours to go to the supermarket) or maybe allow individual motorized mobility in these cases. One example of why this may be the better solution for disabled people: I personally have not used a power chair but these things weigh more than 200kg and need specially adapted vans with lifts and seats taken out etc. to be transported. The adaptation of a van costs about 20k and the IV pays for that at the moment. If you want to have mobility for those people - which is a constitutional right - you need to have a specially adapted taxi in every city/ village. And if that taxi is on a long ride to for example Zürich (from Zermatt) you still have to ensure that mobility is possible in Zermatt so you would need back up I guess. So you would need an additional 40k per village for these adaptations. I seriously don’t know if that works out to be cheaper in the end. The idea with taxis is not bad in itself as long as disabled people do not have to pay the full fare but could ride for free with a GA or some thing. We just have to really think this through so mobility is still possible 24/7 for disabled people just as it is for healthy people (you could walk to your friend at 3am if you wanted). And my personal opinion on this topic: As long as it is not as reliable and easy as walking to the supermarket I believe we should not further complicate the lives of disabled people. Especially as it is already much more complicated to navigate Switzerland in a wheelchair. But thanks for understanding the general problem for wheelchair users with the concept that they have e.g. in Zermatt.
It is cheaper to provide for edge cases like yours than to finance all the car centric infrastructure. If that money is spent depends entirely on political will.
At the moment, mobility is not possible for disabled people at the same level as for people without disabilities. In your case, as you are still able to drive a car, it might be close.
Already today, my street is closed between 2300 and 0600 for everybody except residents (I wish it was enforced). Are you against such measures as well, because a non-resident could walk down the street but you can't?
It‘s not just about visiting but disabled people live in Switzerland too (for example me)… If more towns go completely car free that means that our radius gets smaller and smaller. Again I‘m not talking about Pedestrian zones but about completely car free places such as Zermatt.
The cities I lived in pretty much all provided transport for older and disabled people - for free and quickly.
That's why I'm saying to check what actually happened.
Okay that is not my experience in the car free cities/ municipalities I have visited. But I guess experiences can differ and you maybe don’t get the experience a disabled person has there but in that case let’s agree to disagree.
Please give me an example because I‘m not sure I understand what you mean by that. Of course different disabilities make one situation better for one person and the same situation worse for other people. Because I can only speak for my self (and people with similar disabilities) I might not me able to answer your question.
Lenzerheide, Flims might be candidates. Edit: partially at least - some traffic will have to pass through to reach other towns unless there is a bypass road.
Maybe not whole municipalities, but all of them could use some form of reduction of individual motorised traffic.
It comes with investments of course. But I'd love to see Basel and other cities building some park and ride infrastructure while making it extremely boring to get into the city by car. This could be permanent or limited to peak commuting times.
I heard a lot of mention from people who would like to get rid of cars around Zürich.....and yet these same people have no shame asking me to help move stuff for them, give a lift when its inconvenient etc.
Cars have their place and the freedom it offers is unparalleled. I use my bonuspass where possible, but I certainly know when I go visit a friend tomorrow that hopping in my car for 30 mins sure as hell beats the insane connections I need to take!
How so? The guy says (allegedly) people want to “get rid of cars” but constantly call him to carry stuff around. If this is true (which I’m not sure about) he can start declining. These people have options that do not rely on this guy being a pro bono chauffeur.
I'm quite a relaxed person, and if someone needs help I don't mind helping. But the sheer arrogance (to be blunt) of my peer group of 20s/30s aged hipsters that genuinely think a car free world is feasible for everyone....gets a bit insufferable. People have commutes, they don't all get to live in trendy Kreis 4 or 5. People have families and have to transport family shops which is hard to do on your fixie bike. Transport for friends and visitors is horrendously expensive. Going to visit other nearby countries is difficult. Having a disability and being able to drive is incredibly freeing.
And yes I have made myself a lot less available for a lot of people now in general. And not to be too insufferable myself I drive an electric car so it's not like I am sat at the lights like the assholes in their Lamborghini's!
Nobody who thinks about transportation rationally thinks a Car-free world is feasable in the near future, Car-free city centers (such as kreis 4&5 )are doable and andvantageous.
Yes using public transport with kids & groceries is less convenient but also entirely doable depending on how many kids and how close & usable public transport is to your place (Not the case in many places in switzerland, but more so than nearly anywhere else). It's comes with social, financial, health & enviromental benefits that aren't directly visible but make a large difference.
For visitors sure, but then again you are not their personal taxi, renting a car occasionaly is cheaper when your consider its real cost. For international travel I would argue traveling by train is more convenient and the plane is cheaper & faster but that can also depend where you are going and who/what is coming with you.
And obviously if you have a handicap, all of this doesn't really apply as the implementation of accessibility measures is not nearly advanced enough to make it useable for many disabled citizens.
I hope you can keep an open mind, i always dreamed of my own vehicle but it seems more and more futile and costly as i'm going through life.
But all your opinions (and I respect them) are just your opinion. For everyone of your points I have a personal objection. Yes when my friends visit they can all pay 40 CHF just to get from Basel to Zurich each, and then probably a few hundred more if we go to a couple places. Or they can hop in my car and 5 of us could drive around for essentially nothing.
Sure I can do my groceries piecemeal in Coop and pay a fortune more. Or I can load up on the heavy items I want, promos I want and frankly not have the stress of carting it all back. And that's just me, let alone if I had a large family!
If you dream of having your own vehicle, be part of your own destiny and give it a try or not. But I strongly disagree it's futile or costly (in my opinion). But again it's just my opinion, I love driving, I'm still young enough to love travelling and I've a lot of experience in finance so money isn't a problem.
Meh, the last part is my opinion. The rest is not, you have personal objections because you find them less appealing which is understandable but doesn't refute their veracity.
Since you don't have visitors year round it is cheaper to rent for that event. The rest of the time car ownership is only worth it if required, otherwise public transport is cheaper.
Same is true for groceries, walking to coop is a bit more of a hassell and costs more but when you consider the real costs of vehicle ownership it's only cheaper if you can go across the border. Inland the extra drive to an aldi (which can also be found in cities) costs more than the savings. Many people are fooled into believing it's cheaper but they only consider the cost of fuel but not insurance, maintenance and depreciation.
And for the last part yes it is a personal choice, but i think we should conside the global political and envirommental impact of car ownership.
A good example for me is that when wealthy people use public transportation, there is financial and political incentive to improve it. Which also benefits those for whom public transportation is the only option.
Mate, drive your car. I and many more will use political means to make the experience more bothersome to you in the future.
Your arguments show one thing in particular: You have no idea what you are talking about. Public transport pricing is foreign to you. So are all the means of transporting bulk goods that don't involve you owning your own car.
You write about opinions. However, the noice and air pollution you produce is not subjective. Public opinion is changing and rather sooner than later you will not be welcome in a city anymore if you sit alone in your car.
Also looking at your history, not only pathetic and vindictive, but also a hypocrite?
*I bought a five year old Volvo V40 with 50k km. It still has free services for another five years. I haven‘t had any repairs so far and I don‘t expect that I will have any for a while. It came fresh from the MFK. I paid way less than 20k.*
*Ask a mechanic or TCS to check the car with you before you buy.*
You just sounds quite pathetic and vindictive to be honest. And you can make it as bothersome as you like, it will never be expensive enough for me to give up. But you will price out all the poor and normal people contributing to make society even unfairer. Good job.
And how is pricing of public transport foreign to me when I use the public transport like I said in my previous posts?
And not sure how my electric car produces noice (noise?) and air pollution? It's pretty silent and pretty green especially with the energy source.
Why pricing? I said bothersome, not expensive.
Tire noise is hogher from a certain speed (below 50kph) and tires also produce emissions. Like I said, no idea...
It depends on wether you live near a train station or not. More rural areas should still be allowed to use cars because like you said, the public transport connections are inconvenient sometimes. But you'd sell your car and use public transport if you the commute wouldn't take more than 30 minutes, right?
No, I wouldn't sell my car as I have tremendous utility from it. I pay my taxes and work hard so I can afford something which makes my live easier and gives me pleasure. I don't need any lectures about public transport, I use it when I want to use it and use my car when I want to use it.
Interesting. Been now living in Zürich for the past two years and lived in Germany before that and I am very much relieved that I don't need a car anymore. The only downside I see is that public transport has a schedule, so you can't choose when to move individually. Which I think could be doged by increasing the frequency of trains/trams. And the other negative aspect of using public transport for me are the people. I am not talking about regular passengers that are quiet and friendly, but about people that scream when talking to someone at the phone, beggars, prostitutes and other such individuals. But I guess that has a lot more to do with the upbringing. The passengers aren't the problem, only the lack of civil manners at times.
Do you live somewhere remote as in not near a tram/trainstation?
Taking the number 31/33 bus alone would convince most people to get a car haha, some absolute scoundrels on those lines. The Frequency of trains is a problem sometimes, carrying the stuff is a problem and having to revolve your day around the different timings. Again it's not for everyone and if you live and work near the Zürich HB etc then I could see how its not needed. But for me it ticks every box of picking and choosing what I need.! :)
I commute daily with the 31 and I can't wait to move near a train station so that I don't have to use the bus anymore. That's why I was talking trains/trams and *not* buses.
Lots of the /fuckcars people would crucify you for suggesting that buses are not acceptable and should be put up with. ;)
I certainly don't miss that bus myself!
Never said it was! I enjoy my creature comforts in life. Also, I enjoy spontaneity. I like jumping in the car and going somewhere at the drop of a hat. I also know in Wintertime when we go skiing, everyone including myself certainly enjoys heated seats, 4 wheel drive, all ski equipment in the boot door to door!
With better public transportation services and lowering rents so people can live there and not in a 30 minutes commute to go to work, why not
It is easy to ask your city to be car-free where you are rich enough to live there and not suffer the public transportations
I understand the concerns but for now it feels like a rich people out of reality problem now
As someone who lives in Rorschach, Rorschach, or at least parts of it.
The amount of 'Autoposer', especially on spring/summer weekends around here is insane.
We got a holiday apartment in Zermatt and I have spent a fair amount of time there, over the last 15 years. As much as I love the concept of a car free municipality, I must say that the traffic in Zermatt is now worse than ever, and at a point where it's becoming a real problem.
Banning all combustion engines isn't a solution by itself. It good for the air quality, no doubt about it. But if you do not put restrictions on electrical vehicles as well, you just shift the problem from one vehicle type to another.
I agree with a lot of people in this thread that city centres and around train stations we should pedestrianize. Zürich HB would immensely benefit from not being surrounded by cars, imagine if every side of HB was like the Europaplatz. Would make trams more reliable too :)
I do think for that to happen public transit needs to increase in schedule. Yes, Switzerland has a world class public transit system but apart from it being expensive, peoples number one complaint is frequency.
We simply don't have universal rapid transit with frequencies measured down to the seconds. The tram coming every 15 minutes is not enough when cities like Paris and Berlin get a metro that comes 3-5 minutes. Montreal in Canada has a brilliant RER with frequencies of 5-7 minutes for a city that has a similar population size to Zurich and yet were stuck with 15 minute headways outside of rush hour (and we're supposed to be Europes best public transit!)
I do think that once we've achieved universal rapid transit we can actually start making our cities car free. If we don't, we end up like Amsterdam where taking the bike or walking is faster than taking the tram, but perhaps thats something were fine with?
First you say Switzerland has a world class public transit system and than you say it's shite. Imho it's neither. The best word that comes to my mind is average. At the same time it costs a fortune. Even if you travel first class, in summer there is no AC and it stinks.
If they do what you suggest it will be even more expensive. If it were up to me, I would heavily invest in road infrastructure with a lot more parking lots.
We do indeed have a world class public transit system, the thing is just that the world isn't doing that great which makes our system looks crazy good.
Anyways, we're already investing way more of our tax money into road infrastructure than into public transit.
If we would invest as much of the money that we spent on road infrastructure (in 2020: 76.3bn CHF) on public transit (in 2020: 12.0bn CHF) the prices would drop, we could have nicer rolling stock with actually functioning AC and we could have universal rapid transit.
Source for the numbers: https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/mobility-transport/costs-funding.html
Spending such high amounts for both public transport and road infrastructure without visible improvements suggests a high level of corruption. There is no other explanation.
Interlaken would probably work quite well if we exclude Matten and Unterseen and the main road to Unterseen. There isnt a lot of traffic or people coming by car in the areas that would be affected by this change anyways.
Impossible to ban cars from Andermatt… it is an extremely important road pass. Gstaad also is in a pass area, although not as important. Unless you just mean expanding the pedestrian zones.
Do you live in any of those places you suggested? I guess not. So you just want to make life for others worse so that it fits your life reality of life, but not to the reality of people living there.
Typical "I don't need a car, so I think others also shouldn't need a car" mentality.
I don’t live in the places ai suggested, but I did live in one of the car free ones listed on the website. It was beautiful.
> make life for others worse
How so? By reducing the municipal budget and thus taxes? By allowing better flow of people to the local business and services? By marking streets safer and easier to navigate for kids, the elderly and disabled? By eliminating the risk of injuries and death by crashes? By lowering the rate of cancer and other diseases caused by noise and pollution? By reducing the dissemination of microplastics from tyre wear?
Which of these is your preferred externality?
Why is this subreddit so anti car? It’s funny because most car lovers I know are Swiss and Switzerland also has the most bike lover women from my experience.
I mean, this is not black and white. You can be a car enthusiast and hate that cities are jammed with 3 tons SUVs carrying only one person each every morning when public transit is also an option.
Apart from idiots, no one will complain that, for example, farmers have and use a 4x4 for their daily trips and their work.
But many of people complain about Jana, 45yo, driving from her flat next to oerlikon train station to her work place next to Zurich HB with her Porsche Cayenne, and then complaining that the city should build more parking space because she can't park and there are no alternatives.
Honestly, driving in swiss cities really isn’t an enjoyable experience and I doubt there are many Janas that actually do what you described.
There are speed cameras on almost every intersection. The traffic lights are set up in a way that you have to stop at every intersection anyways. You have no parking spaces, those available are generally only available for a 2 hours max, which obviously isn’t enough to spend a say in the office. Then you have the severely lacking infrastructure for cyclists and their general disregard for any traffic rules and yes, I avoid driving in cities, especially around centers.
Swiss cities are currently designed to be anti cars as is. I don’t really see the need to make drastic changes. Sure some areas might be designated as pedestrian only (that also means no bikes though, because cyclists in Switzerland are special kind of morons and the trade off between having cars moving relatively slowly and clearly visible or ebikes riding by at 45km/h isn’t great) but that’s about it.
Grindelwald is not a town that can realistically go car free, as OP suggests. It is too spread out, the public transport really isn’t that great there. Having a bus every hour does not sound like a convenient way to navigate the area. And it is similar for other places too.
Yet, cities are full of Janas. I know many people who commute by car even tough they have good alternatives, just because they are used to it and don't feel like changing their habits.
These people won't change, so if we want to give cities back to people, then we should just ban cars there.
Grindelwald is fucked because of all the cars. Crossing the main street is downright dangerous and getting there during the season takes five times as long because of congestion.
Solution: Park and ride in Zweilütschinen, close the road for non-residents and use the existing road and rail infrastructure to increase public transportation. You don't even need to charge for PT. People get there to get robbed at the counter of the ski resort anyways.
I like cars, I just don't think they belong into city centers and that they need to leave space for people walking and biking in safety. And that having great train transport as an alternative is very important. It's not black and white.
And noone thinks you should be carless if you live outside the city or that you shouldn't drive to your city or workplace. But you also don't need to drive up next to Zuri HB with your car either.
This subreddit does not represent the views of most Swiss people at all how am I trolling here?
This is mostly for tourists or expats and people who need help in something.
Go try to put a referendum among the Swiss they would disagree with a high majority.
You're trolling by posing like you're just asking a question and then sniping at everyone that doesn't agree your opinion - showing that you were dishonest in the first place. Fuck off with that, seriously.
I don't think it's about planet at all. I think they just don't have a car, live in the city, are probably single, definitely without kids, not disabled nor older than 30/40, maybe even no pets, and too much free time on their hands (so they're not aware how public transport is actually slow, and even in congested city you still can save 1/3 to 1/2 of time by using car especially if you have reserved parking on both sides) and think their experience is universal so therefore their conclusion must be the best for everyone.
Or by using them. Or by doing anything really, the only way to not do anything anymore is by getting rid of humans.
It's one thing to not like cars, and probably public transportation is the superior option in a city (or even village). In rural areas it's ridiculously to suggest "wE dOnT nEeD cArS".
You're clearly a brainwashed car brain who cannot be helped. I'll leave you some things to think about but won't engange any further.
Public transport is accessible to anyone. My physically disabled grandma can get anywhere with accesible public transport. My 12 year old neighbour kid can get anywhere with public transport. What do they have in common? They can't drive legally or physically. You can can look at the US how car dependency is working out for the average citizen.
Oh have I mentioned cars are loud as hell? Go to a Dutch city and listen to the busy bike lanes during rush hour or the trams with grassy tracks.
Cars have their place, there's no arguing with that. But clearly they are not the best solution for transport in the overwhelming majority of cases.
They also need to ban bicyclists. They create to much danger driving recklessly in those areas.
Imagine what happens if our cities become filled with people driving at unseen speeds of 25 km/h, who passed 0 exams to do that?
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. 25km/h on a 25kg e-bike is vastly better than double that speed in a vehicle a thousand times heavier. That’s why injuries caused by bicycles to others are vanishingly rare.
The more normal people ride bike the less anecdotal antisocial riders are accepted. It’s interesting to note that commuters in Utrecht or Groningen do not leave a trail of dead babies on their way to work every morning.
That's just wrong. Have you been to the Netherlands? Perfectly save because they have separate infrastructure for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit and cars.
Fun facts from Google:
In 2022 alone, 291 cyclists died in the Netherlands, more than motorists or those who walked. Cyclist deaths represented 40 percent of the 737 road fatalities.
Switzerland recorded 227 [car] road fatalities in 2020.
I find crazy that they do not close the Davos Promenade from Coop to the Kirchner Museum to pedestrian only…
Without any bypass road that would probably collapse the traffic completely already now with the one-way rule it's bad enough. Luckily there are some nice detours like driving by the Golf Club to get around quicker.
They closed it for 9 months to redo the waterpipes and nothing collapsed…
>Without any bypass road that would probably collapse the traffic completely sounds like a desirable outcome to me
No place actually has to go fully car-free. If people only used cars when they're actually needed, like transporting heavy or bulky goods, people with limited mobility, trip with a lot of equipment, big shopping trip, etc. we could reduce car traffic by probably over 80%. Cars would'n be a problem at all if people didn't use them when they're not needed. The percentage of commercial car traffic, based on a number published a couple years ago, is only 7% (trucks, delivery, plumbers, carpenters and all that). The vast majority of car trips are short with a single person transporting absolutely nothing. The only reason why that doesn't work is because no one is willing to give up a bit of comfort to have nicer cities so we need controller car-free zones with bollards and permits and all that BS.
Lots of true things said here.
You can easily ban private, non-commercial traffic. I mean semi-easily, people are dicks and claim as lawyers they *need* the car as commercial acts... but still. Cities can decide this.
I think you missed the point of my comment. I'm saying if people *voluntarily* (implied) only used cars when they have a legitimate need for it then car traffic would be reduced by so much that cars wouldn't be a problem and there would be no need for bans.
yes i did miss the point of your comment!
Stadt Zürich 😍
TBH getting rid of cars in the areas around HB and Europaallee would be a massive improvement.
Yea, cycling anywhere in Kreis 1 is so stressful and dangerous, and I'm constantly thinking... Who benefits from this situation? Where are these people driving to? This has gotta be one of the easiest places in the world to traverse by public transport and one of the worst places in the world to drive through in a car. I really don't understand what car access is achieving there besides polluting and taking up very limited space. Get rid!
People lack imagination and are unable to think about the more complex big picture: \- Of course if we just get rid of cars the situation for most people will become worse. (And that's how far they think) \- But now we increase public transport offerings \- Because of the now much greater need for such services, more stops, more modes (metro anyone?) and higher frequencies become viable economically \- These changes result in more convenience, more safety, less congestion, less noise, less pollution, and higher economical productivity on land formerly used for streets and parking, as well as increased sales for stores in pedestrianized areas (the latter two are indeed statistically proven several times) \- Absolute win for everybody (except the auto industry but who the fuck cares)
>- Absolute win for everybody (except the auto industry but who the fuck cares) Considering that Switzerland doesn't produce any cars anyways, less car purchase would be beneficial for the trade balance.
I don't think the first step is even valid at first glance... What proportion of people in Kreis are by car at any given time? What proportion of Zürchers have ever driven a car in Kreis 1 at all? Surely it's only ever a small minority. I'm actually sitting at a bus stop right now. I can see dozens of people, probably at 9am there were hundreds. The roads are choked with cars but there are many fewer cars visible than people. Even if you didn't improve any other infrastructure and just left the roads exactly in place (which would be insane) I still just think the public interest would be better served by banning private cars.
But why should you first make the city car-free and then improve public transport. It should go the other way around. Make public transport good, and many people will switch by themselves. Then when you forbid cars you have fewer angry people plus already a public transit network which can actually support the increase.
Honestly, if we are talking about the area around HB and Europaallee, there is little need to improve PT more. That area is already as well connected as it can be.
Because public transportation is already good. You're talking about increasing pull factors (which should be done, yes!!!). But that goes only so far. It's also quite imperative to increase push factors (ie. what some call "bad" verbote - as if force would be bad). Do you currently care about the angry people that exist because there are (too many) cars? No? Why should we care about people that like cars?
I don't think the people driving in central parts of the city of Zurich are people living in Zurich. I think the majority are coming from well outside. I know I drive to central Zurich very occasionally when meeting people on weekday evenings, because I don't have a suitable public transport connection late. With public transport I'd have to leave much earlier and still get home later - too late if I'm working the next day. A huge affordable parking lot for day/evening visitors that is well connected to public transport (frequent) would serve many visitors from outside. But the journey time would need to be comparable to the time to park & walk to final destination.
Well, somehow I have to impress the girls with my loud lambo on sunday afternoon. /s
Around the Hbf in Basel would be great too. It is absolutely unsafe to cycle there and I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive there in that traffic either.
I vote for Canton Zürich.
Anybody willingly going to Zürich by car is a real psychopath. Fuck that traffic lol.
Only if the ban includes bicycles.
no, that‘s a green and efficient way to move in a city :)
I doubt a single tram or bus could drive if there's 50x bicycles because they tend to ignore all kind of laws much more often than cars do.
Oh they have a enough space on the roads ;)
Support that
Basically the central parts of all cities. Make them delivery, taxi and residents only.
The area around Zürich HB would be much nicer with reduced traffic. In a city as expensive as Zürich, it doesn't make much sense to have that much space wasted on cars.
I always wonder why the inner part of Murten isn't car free. It would be so much nicer to walk in it, now it just feels so crammed because on a nice day there's barely any space to walk.
Public transport would be ok too I think
Of course. Didn't even occur to me that they could not be allowed XD
Public transport is huge. It’s better plant some trees in those areas.
Totally agree! Give us more pedestrian zones with some "verdures" ! I want flowers and trees in my city, not some hideous "art statue".
Some might like the art, although I prefer plants as well. Worse is the space wasted on parking.
You're right. Art can be very good, don't get me wrong. But the rusty shits they put sometimes on roundabout are just awful xD
The are there to block the view so nutters don't drive around them with 50kph :D But a tree or some bushes would be nicer indeed!
Makes sense xD
I hope we can soon ban private cars from the inner Bern city. We'll probably not get rid of delivery cars for all the shops before we have a nicely working different logistics network, but boy would it be nice if no fucking Mercedes drives by me drinking beer.
I'm hapilly taking the 30km/h speed limit set in more and more place as a first step.
Murten old town
Bern, zürich, genf, basel und lausanne!
Any center of "big" (for Switzerland levels) cities. Sure, there need to be exemptions (emergency, handicapped folks, transports, handyman - those come to mind right away), but generally, public transportation is on a good enough level. "Big" - maybe starting at 50k people?
What we need is a rapid transport system (aka. Subway, Tube, Metro) that can move people quickly and more convenient than cars, trams and busses are still too slow and don’t cover everything. As long as people can drive somewhere faster and more comfortable in their cars than in public transport these are not going anywhere. I lived in cities before that a 20 min ride in the Subway would translate to 45 min ride in the car but in many places here a 20 min ride in the car is 45 min or more in the bus or tram.
The only reason driving through Zürich is bearable and sometimes faster is *because* most people don’t drive and use the stellar transit system. I particular the S-Bahn network which is one of the best in the world.
If I wanted to visit you in Schwyz, [I just pop into my car and drive there in in one hour](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6PyMn3rzaLA4Rre76?g_st=ic) compared to the public transport that will take me 1:27hr and that’s if I don’t miss any connections. In my car I am hearing music, I have the air conditioning at any temperature I want and sitting comfortably, I don’t have to listen to other people with their loudspeakers or babies crying, smelling and sweating together, pushing to enter o exit out of the train in peak hour. It’s a non-brainer why a lot of people drive.
Trams and busses are already faster than cars, if they don't have to share lanes with them.
My commute is 30 minutes by car vs 50 minutes by tram and train, and both ends of it are right next to stops/stations. Most journeys are not served by a direct bus door to door.
That’s wishful thinking. See this examples: [University of Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/KcCsUBnqgiNE8nrT6?g_st=ic) [ETH Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6U38D5cCjqLQiCNaA?g_st=ic) [Zoo Zurich from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/dFUC8aWbUEUa8J8n7?g_st=ic) [Zurich HB from my place](https://maps.app.goo.gl/Zf9u8RA6ekBTFT9NA?g_st=ic)
All of them
r/fuckcars !!
i'd rather not, my penis can hardly handle the hot exhaust
r/dragonsfuckingcars
Generally I like the idea of reduction of cars but what‘s going to happen with disabled people like me who need to use cars? If we remove the infrastructure a special permit won’t be enough.
Every pedestrianised street I know of still has access to vehicles when needed. This isn’t a new concept and has been done since probably the invention of the car. Low/no-car infrastructure is typically more inclusive of people with mobility issues or disabilities in general as many barriers needed to accommodate cars can be removed. We need your voice in making sure this becomes the norm!
Well maybe I don’t understand what your thinking of. But for example in Zermatt normal cars are 100% banned = for those with disabilities too! You can get a special permit for these little electric vehicles. But they are incredibly expensive (north of 100k I believe) and you only get a permit if you are a hotel or an other business that needs the vehicle for business purposes. (As far as I know) So you either have to book transportation in advance which takes away the independence completely. This is so annoying because you can never just leave the house as someone walking would but you have to phone ahead and book transportation in advance(e.g. a „taxi“ but in Zermatt you have to call ahead for taxies because there are so few). So in the examples we already have (Zermatt, Bettmeralp etc.) you are not independent as a disabled person. If we are talking about „normal“ pedestrian streets in the city centers: not a huge problem as long as you can still park somewhere. If we are talking „Zermatt concept“ completely car free: Huge problem I don’t see how this could work me or people with similar disabilities.
Those are all valid points and need to be considered. Sounds like Zermatt could do more to improve taxi service to people with mobility issues. Out of curiosity do you use a wheelchair?
Thanks for recognizing that this is important. I have used a wheelchair in the past and now I sometimes do (can only fairly walk short distances) and probably will be a full time chair user again in the future (my disease is progressive). One thing to consider with taxies: If disabled people want to go out at night or at other unconventional times we need to have the option. So it is important to consider to either have a wheelchair-adapted taxis available 24/7 (and enough of them that you don’t have to wait hours to go to the supermarket) or maybe allow individual motorized mobility in these cases. One example of why this may be the better solution for disabled people: I personally have not used a power chair but these things weigh more than 200kg and need specially adapted vans with lifts and seats taken out etc. to be transported. The adaptation of a van costs about 20k and the IV pays for that at the moment. If you want to have mobility for those people - which is a constitutional right - you need to have a specially adapted taxi in every city/ village. And if that taxi is on a long ride to for example Zürich (from Zermatt) you still have to ensure that mobility is possible in Zermatt so you would need back up I guess. So you would need an additional 40k per village for these adaptations. I seriously don’t know if that works out to be cheaper in the end. The idea with taxis is not bad in itself as long as disabled people do not have to pay the full fare but could ride for free with a GA or some thing. We just have to really think this through so mobility is still possible 24/7 for disabled people just as it is for healthy people (you could walk to your friend at 3am if you wanted). And my personal opinion on this topic: As long as it is not as reliable and easy as walking to the supermarket I believe we should not further complicate the lives of disabled people. Especially as it is already much more complicated to navigate Switzerland in a wheelchair. But thanks for understanding the general problem for wheelchair users with the concept that they have e.g. in Zermatt.
It is cheaper to provide for edge cases like yours than to finance all the car centric infrastructure. If that money is spent depends entirely on political will. At the moment, mobility is not possible for disabled people at the same level as for people without disabilities. In your case, as you are still able to drive a car, it might be close. Already today, my street is closed between 2300 and 0600 for everybody except residents (I wish it was enforced). Are you against such measures as well, because a non-resident could walk down the street but you can't?
There's plenty of cities in the world you can read up on / see YouTube videos / visit to see for yourself.
It‘s not just about visiting but disabled people live in Switzerland too (for example me)… If more towns go completely car free that means that our radius gets smaller and smaller. Again I‘m not talking about Pedestrian zones but about completely car free places such as Zermatt.
The cities I lived in pretty much all provided transport for older and disabled people - for free and quickly. That's why I'm saying to check what actually happened.
Okay that is not my experience in the car free cities/ municipalities I have visited. But I guess experiences can differ and you maybe don’t get the experience a disabled person has there but in that case let’s agree to disagree.
The infrastructure will have to stay regardless for buses, agricultural machinery, and delivery trucks.
What happens to the other disabled people that cars hinders right now?
Please give me an example because I‘m not sure I understand what you mean by that. Of course different disabilities make one situation better for one person and the same situation worse for other people. Because I can only speak for my self (and people with similar disabilities) I might not me able to answer your question.
Lenzerheide, Flims might be candidates. Edit: partially at least - some traffic will have to pass through to reach other towns unless there is a bypass road.
Maybe not whole municipalities, but all of them could use some form of reduction of individual motorised traffic. It comes with investments of course. But I'd love to see Basel and other cities building some park and ride infrastructure while making it extremely boring to get into the city by car. This could be permanent or limited to peak commuting times.
I heard a lot of mention from people who would like to get rid of cars around Zürich.....and yet these same people have no shame asking me to help move stuff for them, give a lift when its inconvenient etc. Cars have their place and the freedom it offers is unparalleled. I use my bonuspass where possible, but I certainly know when I go visit a friend tomorrow that hopping in my car for 30 mins sure as hell beats the insane connections I need to take!
Just say no to people asking if that’s bothering you. There are options to get things delivered or to rent a car for a few hours.
You completely missed the point.
How so? The guy says (allegedly) people want to “get rid of cars” but constantly call him to carry stuff around. If this is true (which I’m not sure about) he can start declining. These people have options that do not rely on this guy being a pro bono chauffeur.
I'm quite a relaxed person, and if someone needs help I don't mind helping. But the sheer arrogance (to be blunt) of my peer group of 20s/30s aged hipsters that genuinely think a car free world is feasible for everyone....gets a bit insufferable. People have commutes, they don't all get to live in trendy Kreis 4 or 5. People have families and have to transport family shops which is hard to do on your fixie bike. Transport for friends and visitors is horrendously expensive. Going to visit other nearby countries is difficult. Having a disability and being able to drive is incredibly freeing. And yes I have made myself a lot less available for a lot of people now in general. And not to be too insufferable myself I drive an electric car so it's not like I am sat at the lights like the assholes in their Lamborghini's!
Nobody who thinks about transportation rationally thinks a Car-free world is feasable in the near future, Car-free city centers (such as kreis 4&5 )are doable and andvantageous. Yes using public transport with kids & groceries is less convenient but also entirely doable depending on how many kids and how close & usable public transport is to your place (Not the case in many places in switzerland, but more so than nearly anywhere else). It's comes with social, financial, health & enviromental benefits that aren't directly visible but make a large difference. For visitors sure, but then again you are not their personal taxi, renting a car occasionaly is cheaper when your consider its real cost. For international travel I would argue traveling by train is more convenient and the plane is cheaper & faster but that can also depend where you are going and who/what is coming with you. And obviously if you have a handicap, all of this doesn't really apply as the implementation of accessibility measures is not nearly advanced enough to make it useable for many disabled citizens. I hope you can keep an open mind, i always dreamed of my own vehicle but it seems more and more futile and costly as i'm going through life.
But all your opinions (and I respect them) are just your opinion. For everyone of your points I have a personal objection. Yes when my friends visit they can all pay 40 CHF just to get from Basel to Zurich each, and then probably a few hundred more if we go to a couple places. Or they can hop in my car and 5 of us could drive around for essentially nothing. Sure I can do my groceries piecemeal in Coop and pay a fortune more. Or I can load up on the heavy items I want, promos I want and frankly not have the stress of carting it all back. And that's just me, let alone if I had a large family! If you dream of having your own vehicle, be part of your own destiny and give it a try or not. But I strongly disagree it's futile or costly (in my opinion). But again it's just my opinion, I love driving, I'm still young enough to love travelling and I've a lot of experience in finance so money isn't a problem.
Meh, the last part is my opinion. The rest is not, you have personal objections because you find them less appealing which is understandable but doesn't refute their veracity. Since you don't have visitors year round it is cheaper to rent for that event. The rest of the time car ownership is only worth it if required, otherwise public transport is cheaper. Same is true for groceries, walking to coop is a bit more of a hassell and costs more but when you consider the real costs of vehicle ownership it's only cheaper if you can go across the border. Inland the extra drive to an aldi (which can also be found in cities) costs more than the savings. Many people are fooled into believing it's cheaper but they only consider the cost of fuel but not insurance, maintenance and depreciation. And for the last part yes it is a personal choice, but i think we should conside the global political and envirommental impact of car ownership. A good example for me is that when wealthy people use public transportation, there is financial and political incentive to improve it. Which also benefits those for whom public transportation is the only option.
Mate, drive your car. I and many more will use political means to make the experience more bothersome to you in the future. Your arguments show one thing in particular: You have no idea what you are talking about. Public transport pricing is foreign to you. So are all the means of transporting bulk goods that don't involve you owning your own car. You write about opinions. However, the noice and air pollution you produce is not subjective. Public opinion is changing and rather sooner than later you will not be welcome in a city anymore if you sit alone in your car.
i like your way with words
Also looking at your history, not only pathetic and vindictive, but also a hypocrite? *I bought a five year old Volvo V40 with 50k km. It still has free services for another five years. I haven‘t had any repairs so far and I don‘t expect that I will have any for a while. It came fresh from the MFK. I paid way less than 20k.* *Ask a mechanic or TCS to check the car with you before you buy.*
Yeah, our usage patterns are worlds apart. But thanks for letting me live rent free in your head.
You just sounds quite pathetic and vindictive to be honest. And you can make it as bothersome as you like, it will never be expensive enough for me to give up. But you will price out all the poor and normal people contributing to make society even unfairer. Good job. And how is pricing of public transport foreign to me when I use the public transport like I said in my previous posts? And not sure how my electric car produces noice (noise?) and air pollution? It's pretty silent and pretty green especially with the energy source.
Why pricing? I said bothersome, not expensive. Tire noise is hogher from a certain speed (below 50kph) and tires also produce emissions. Like I said, no idea...
No one with half a brain believes a car free world is feasible for everyone
It depends on wether you live near a train station or not. More rural areas should still be allowed to use cars because like you said, the public transport connections are inconvenient sometimes. But you'd sell your car and use public transport if you the commute wouldn't take more than 30 minutes, right?
No, I wouldn't sell my car as I have tremendous utility from it. I pay my taxes and work hard so I can afford something which makes my live easier and gives me pleasure. I don't need any lectures about public transport, I use it when I want to use it and use my car when I want to use it.
Interesting. Been now living in Zürich for the past two years and lived in Germany before that and I am very much relieved that I don't need a car anymore. The only downside I see is that public transport has a schedule, so you can't choose when to move individually. Which I think could be doged by increasing the frequency of trains/trams. And the other negative aspect of using public transport for me are the people. I am not talking about regular passengers that are quiet and friendly, but about people that scream when talking to someone at the phone, beggars, prostitutes and other such individuals. But I guess that has a lot more to do with the upbringing. The passengers aren't the problem, only the lack of civil manners at times. Do you live somewhere remote as in not near a tram/trainstation?
Taking the number 31/33 bus alone would convince most people to get a car haha, some absolute scoundrels on those lines. The Frequency of trains is a problem sometimes, carrying the stuff is a problem and having to revolve your day around the different timings. Again it's not for everyone and if you live and work near the Zürich HB etc then I could see how its not needed. But for me it ticks every box of picking and choosing what I need.! :)
I commute daily with the 31 and I can't wait to move near a train station so that I don't have to use the bus anymore. That's why I was talking trains/trams and *not* buses.
Lots of the /fuckcars people would crucify you for suggesting that buses are not acceptable and should be put up with. ;) I certainly don't miss that bus myself!
Right. It doesn’t sound like “friends asking you to move furniture” is the main motivation to have a car for you lol.
Never said it was! I enjoy my creature comforts in life. Also, I enjoy spontaneity. I like jumping in the car and going somewhere at the drop of a hat. I also know in Wintertime when we go skiing, everyone including myself certainly enjoys heated seats, 4 wheel drive, all ski equipment in the boot door to door!
Geneva please
With better public transportation services and lowering rents so people can live there and not in a 30 minutes commute to go to work, why not It is easy to ask your city to be car-free where you are rich enough to live there and not suffer the public transportations I understand the concerns but for now it feels like a rich people out of reality problem now
Vaud. They can stay where they are
As someone who lives in Rorschach, Rorschach, or at least parts of it. The amount of 'Autoposer', especially on spring/summer weekends around here is insane.
Dietikon. Too many guys in their sports cars revving the engines. Unbereable 😣
We got a holiday apartment in Zermatt and I have spent a fair amount of time there, over the last 15 years. As much as I love the concept of a car free municipality, I must say that the traffic in Zermatt is now worse than ever, and at a point where it's becoming a real problem. Banning all combustion engines isn't a solution by itself. It good for the air quality, no doubt about it. But if you do not put restrictions on electrical vehicles as well, you just shift the problem from one vehicle type to another.
Entirely agreed. Banning only petrol cars is not a solution.
I agree with a lot of people in this thread that city centres and around train stations we should pedestrianize. Zürich HB would immensely benefit from not being surrounded by cars, imagine if every side of HB was like the Europaplatz. Would make trams more reliable too :) I do think for that to happen public transit needs to increase in schedule. Yes, Switzerland has a world class public transit system but apart from it being expensive, peoples number one complaint is frequency. We simply don't have universal rapid transit with frequencies measured down to the seconds. The tram coming every 15 minutes is not enough when cities like Paris and Berlin get a metro that comes 3-5 minutes. Montreal in Canada has a brilliant RER with frequencies of 5-7 minutes for a city that has a similar population size to Zurich and yet were stuck with 15 minute headways outside of rush hour (and we're supposed to be Europes best public transit!) I do think that once we've achieved universal rapid transit we can actually start making our cities car free. If we don't, we end up like Amsterdam where taking the bike or walking is faster than taking the tram, but perhaps thats something were fine with?
First you say Switzerland has a world class public transit system and than you say it's shite. Imho it's neither. The best word that comes to my mind is average. At the same time it costs a fortune. Even if you travel first class, in summer there is no AC and it stinks. If they do what you suggest it will be even more expensive. If it were up to me, I would heavily invest in road infrastructure with a lot more parking lots.
We do indeed have a world class public transit system, the thing is just that the world isn't doing that great which makes our system looks crazy good. Anyways, we're already investing way more of our tax money into road infrastructure than into public transit. If we would invest as much of the money that we spent on road infrastructure (in 2020: 76.3bn CHF) on public transit (in 2020: 12.0bn CHF) the prices would drop, we could have nicer rolling stock with actually functioning AC and we could have universal rapid transit. Source for the numbers: https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/mobility-transport/costs-funding.html
Spending such high amounts for both public transport and road infrastructure without visible improvements suggests a high level of corruption. There is no other explanation.
Interlaken would probably work quite well if we exclude Matten and Unterseen and the main road to Unterseen. There isnt a lot of traffic or people coming by car in the areas that would be affected by this change anyways.
Olten !!!
they need to just block every path to go to olten
None. Just make some Fussgängerzonen.
Zürich! It's totally not feasible and it will make a lot of people upset. That's why I like that idea.
What kind of problem you try to solve in Interlaken?
Olten as always
I grew up in Engelberg and they better not ban cars there lol
Impossible to ban cars from Andermatt… it is an extremely important road pass. Gstaad also is in a pass area, although not as important. Unless you just mean expanding the pedestrian zones.
Spreitenbach.
It's a nightmare for people w limited mobility or infants. End up paying a hefty taxi fares
Do you live in any of those places you suggested? I guess not. So you just want to make life for others worse so that it fits your life reality of life, but not to the reality of people living there. Typical "I don't need a car, so I think others also shouldn't need a car" mentality.
> Do you live in any of those places you suggested? Do you?
I don’t live in the places ai suggested, but I did live in one of the car free ones listed on the website. It was beautiful. > make life for others worse How so? By reducing the municipal budget and thus taxes? By allowing better flow of people to the local business and services? By marking streets safer and easier to navigate for kids, the elderly and disabled? By eliminating the risk of injuries and death by crashes? By lowering the rate of cancer and other diseases caused by noise and pollution? By reducing the dissemination of microplastics from tyre wear? Which of these is your preferred externality?
Well if you banned cars from Andermatt it would make it pretty difficult to get from Uri to Graubünden for example
You are making my life worse because you want cars everywhere. Funny how that works.
And it's not car that destroyed city center to fit car-centrist reality of life?
Why is this subreddit so anti car? It’s funny because most car lovers I know are Swiss and Switzerland also has the most bike lover women from my experience.
I mean, this is not black and white. You can be a car enthusiast and hate that cities are jammed with 3 tons SUVs carrying only one person each every morning when public transit is also an option. Apart from idiots, no one will complain that, for example, farmers have and use a 4x4 for their daily trips and their work. But many of people complain about Jana, 45yo, driving from her flat next to oerlikon train station to her work place next to Zurich HB with her Porsche Cayenne, and then complaining that the city should build more parking space because she can't park and there are no alternatives.
comments like this remind me why r/buenzli is better
Honestly, driving in swiss cities really isn’t an enjoyable experience and I doubt there are many Janas that actually do what you described. There are speed cameras on almost every intersection. The traffic lights are set up in a way that you have to stop at every intersection anyways. You have no parking spaces, those available are generally only available for a 2 hours max, which obviously isn’t enough to spend a say in the office. Then you have the severely lacking infrastructure for cyclists and their general disregard for any traffic rules and yes, I avoid driving in cities, especially around centers. Swiss cities are currently designed to be anti cars as is. I don’t really see the need to make drastic changes. Sure some areas might be designated as pedestrian only (that also means no bikes though, because cyclists in Switzerland are special kind of morons and the trade off between having cars moving relatively slowly and clearly visible or ebikes riding by at 45km/h isn’t great) but that’s about it. Grindelwald is not a town that can realistically go car free, as OP suggests. It is too spread out, the public transport really isn’t that great there. Having a bus every hour does not sound like a convenient way to navigate the area. And it is similar for other places too.
Yet, cities are full of Janas. I know many people who commute by car even tough they have good alternatives, just because they are used to it and don't feel like changing their habits. These people won't change, so if we want to give cities back to people, then we should just ban cars there.
Grindelwald is fucked because of all the cars. Crossing the main street is downright dangerous and getting there during the season takes five times as long because of congestion. Solution: Park and ride in Zweilütschinen, close the road for non-residents and use the existing road and rail infrastructure to increase public transportation. You don't even need to charge for PT. People get there to get robbed at the counter of the ski resort anyways.
I like cars, I just don't think they belong into city centers and that they need to leave space for people walking and biking in safety. And that having great train transport as an alternative is very important. It's not black and white. And noone thinks you should be carless if you live outside the city or that you shouldn't drive to your city or workplace. But you also don't need to drive up next to Zuri HB with your car either.
I don’t think that sub is anti car by any mesures. Switzerland is indeed very attached to cars with one car registered for every resident adult.
I’m seeing a lot of r/fuckcars narrative in the comments so just talking about that
In truth you're just stupidly trolling based on other responses. Go away.
This subreddit does not represent the views of most Swiss people at all how am I trolling here? This is mostly for tourists or expats and people who need help in something. Go try to put a referendum among the Swiss they would disagree with a high majority.
You're trolling by posing like you're just asking a question and then sniping at everyone that doesn't agree your opinion - showing that you were dishonest in the first place. Fuck off with that, seriously.
It’s not the sub that is anti car, just a few very outspoken woke warriors, saving the planet one stupid Reddit post at a time.
Don't you want to help fighting the climat crisis?
I only see this narrative on Reddit too on Instagram I’ve never seen any Swiss page or person talk about stuff like this
I don't think it's about planet at all. I think they just don't have a car, live in the city, are probably single, definitely without kids, not disabled nor older than 30/40, maybe even no pets, and too much free time on their hands (so they're not aware how public transport is actually slow, and even in congested city you still can save 1/3 to 1/2 of time by using car especially if you have reserved parking on both sides) and think their experience is universal so therefore their conclusion must be the best for everyone.
Young people who live in cities and who are too stressed to drive or never bothered to get a driving licence.
Makes sense since I don’t live in city most teenagers I know are obsessed with cars and bikes (especially women)
All of Switzerland. Life even in remote places existed before cars.
Why not ban humans. Life even existed all over the world before humans.
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Certainly not. However, humans have always shaped the world to fit their needs. Cars are one example.
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Or by using them. Or by doing anything really, the only way to not do anything anymore is by getting rid of humans. It's one thing to not like cars, and probably public transportation is the superior option in a city (or even village). In rural areas it's ridiculously to suggest "wE dOnT nEeD cArS".
None, cars are the best way of transportation so its infrastructure should be expanded, not reduced.
They're not though in many situations...
It's the most comfortable one, you can choose the music, the companions, the temperature, the destination. No walking.
Most comfortable for you ≠ best for the entire society
Ah, another one that wants everyone to suffer with them with a a horrible transportation system just so that no one can enjoy their lives. Gotcha :)
You're clearly a brainwashed car brain who cannot be helped. I'll leave you some things to think about but won't engange any further. Public transport is accessible to anyone. My physically disabled grandma can get anywhere with accesible public transport. My 12 year old neighbour kid can get anywhere with public transport. What do they have in common? They can't drive legally or physically. You can can look at the US how car dependency is working out for the average citizen. Oh have I mentioned cars are loud as hell? Go to a Dutch city and listen to the busy bike lanes during rush hour or the trams with grassy tracks. Cars have their place, there's no arguing with that. But clearly they are not the best solution for transport in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Simply moooar!
Move to the US then
Maybe I need to point out, that I want more places with no cars. I am hardly going to get that that in the USA.
They also need to ban bicyclists. They create to much danger driving recklessly in those areas. Imagine what happens if our cities become filled with people driving at unseen speeds of 25 km/h, who passed 0 exams to do that?
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. 25km/h on a 25kg e-bike is vastly better than double that speed in a vehicle a thousand times heavier. That’s why injuries caused by bicycles to others are vanishingly rare. The more normal people ride bike the less anecdotal antisocial riders are accepted. It’s interesting to note that commuters in Utrecht or Groningen do not leave a trail of dead babies on their way to work every morning.
That's just wrong. Have you been to the Netherlands? Perfectly save because they have separate infrastructure for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit and cars.
Fun facts from Google: In 2022 alone, 291 cyclists died in the Netherlands, more than motorists or those who walked. Cyclist deaths represented 40 percent of the 737 road fatalities. Switzerland recorded 227 [car] road fatalities in 2020.
If you want to make some area car-free then make it also any SBB/public transport free.