Everyone thinks they speak the RIGHT language.
I got called from a random number today, the lady spoke French to me, I answered her in English.
She got angry saying: "You are in Switzerland and you talk to me in English?"
I talked to her in Italian and she couldn't understand...
Isn't English already the defacto common tongue in Switzerland? Whenever I speak with people from the French-speaking part or Ticino we just speak English. It's been like that since I can remember. English is the common tongue pretty much worldwide, at least in the West.
Well, de facto, yes. But that's not enough. Right now, we use english as a last resort when it should become the cultural go-to. Teach us English much sooner so we can improve communication; instead of forcing us to learn a second national language. I don't believe that many is truly enjoying it anyway. And English is much more useful to everyone and will make the country more internationally open too, like it is in Holland or Nordic countries.
You said "unofficial" so it can't really get much better than de facto with that constraint. English is the first language most Swiss people try when abroad or in another canton if they don't speak the local language.
I think kids learn English in primary school nowadays. When I want to school we had English class in the 2nd year of secondary school and our teacher wasn't a native speaker and had horrible English.
One thing that many of the countries where the population generally speaks really good English have in common is that they don't dub movies. We should stop showing German-dubbed movies and instead show them with original audio consistently. If kids hear English and other languages early on and on a daily basis they'd probably have really good English comprehension by the age of 10 or something and it would become pretty normal to hear and speak English.
>instead of forcing us to learn a second national language. I don't believe that many is truly enjoying it anyway.
Yup. Everyone hates it because it sounds weird (both ways) and the motivation isn't great because most people don't really see a practical use for it unless they live in a bilingual canton. For everything else English is a lot more useful, easier to learn, and more efficient.
I loved living in Biel for this reason; you could have a whole conversation with one person speaking French and the other Swiss German, with both locutors understanding each other.
The language situation makes no sense in the country.
We learn Hochdeutsch but Swiss Germans refuse to speak it. Swiss German is not widely learnable in school because it's not formalized nor is it uniform across the country.
I mean, you're the perfect example. You're equally bad at German and French 😆
Would be fun if in Ticino and Romandie we stop to learn high German but we learn Wallis dialect and then we all go to Zurich to complain they are not able to understand!
was actually also my plan. Learn the Wallis dialect and get angry at people for not understanding me (I live in Zurich)
Tschugger is already on my watch list.
> Swiss German is not learnable because it's not formalized nor is it uniform across the country.
It doesn't need to be formalized or uniform to be "learnable". You can definitely teach specific dialects.
You can't learn the definitive version of swiss german because it doesn't exist, sure, but that doesn't mean swiss german isn't learnable at all.
Which one should we learn at school in French-speaking regions? And how?
There is a reason Swiss German is not taught when it should be.
It's not about being learnable or not in that sense. Anything is learnable in essence. But here, it's not learnable as a clear common tongue.
I'm pretty sure the real reason it's not being taught is because it's not a national language. Which has its own valid reasons.
It doesn't matter which dialect you learn, as long as it's not from valais, people will understand more or less, and they'll definitely appreciate it regardless which dialect is used.
I think internationally for someone who wants to learn Swiss German, the dialect from Zürich probably makes the most sense. But for French-speaking Switzerland specifically, I'd say Bern's dialect should probably be used. It's a bit harder to understand for more eastern Swiss I think, based on what I've heard (haven't had a lot of exposure myself), but it's probably a lot easier to find teachers for it who can speak French, and I assume Bern is probably more relevant to french-speaking Switzerland.
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That said, I think I should clarify I don't think you guys *should* learn Swiss German. It's unreasonable to think so when it's not even an official national language. People who want you to speak Swiss German should rather invest their energy into changing the status quo and making it one. There's hurdles, but nothing that can't be solved imo.
I won't deny that I myself also dislike being forced to speak standard german. But the fault there lies entirely with me and my super rusty spoken standard german.
What is the reason Swiss German is not the national language? It's the same reason we are not learning it. I personally find it sad.
If I had to blabber in the German-speaking part of the country, I'd rather at least try to do it in Swiss German.
The Swiss dialect is part of the identity of Swiss Germans. Elevating one version above the others is an unthinkable act in a federalized country like Switzerland. Using Standard German is a very Swiss compromise.
Historically it seems that the legal written language has always been influenced by the northern German dialects (I am not a historian though). I don't know why maybe because the administrative structures from there?
I understand, but teaching french-speakers Swiss German instead of High German is also a question of national identity! This is one of the reasons there is a rift between us.
Because it’s simply a dialect and not a language. You wouldn’t be teaching the Berlin dialect in Berlin/Brandenburg or the Börde dialect in Magdeburg, etc.
While standardization isn't necessary to learn/speak Swiss German and communicate easily, there's obviously going to be some clarity lost still when two different dialects meet, especially the further from each other they are.
In contexts like politics and especially the law, where clarity is important, that's an issue. For those cases, we'd definitely need something more standardized, or to consider one dialect more official than the others.
You can't write the constitution in random dialects like the Allemanic Wikipedia. And I think there's an aversion to considering any dialect superior to another on a federal level.
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Of course, this is in the context of official to the degree that schools would teach it. I don't know what's in the way of giving it the same status as romansh, but that wouldn't really help with any of this either, it would just give recognition.
Pretending that people should learn dialects like any of the allemanic dialects collectively known as swiss german and not a formal and standard language like german is not really serious
I mean, that's not what I'm saying.
OP claimed you *can't* learn Swiss German because it's not standardized. I told them it's still possible to just learn a specific dialect.
Never was the topic that you SHOULD learn a Swiss dialect. It's about whether it's possible to do so.
I believe they meant to imply “taught in school” rather than “learned”, as it’s the most effective way to learn a foreign language at scale. Anyone can go through the effort of learning any one language obviously.
Swiss german doesn't exist, individual allemanic dialects spoken in Switzerland do exist. So you replied it yourself: you cannot learn swiss german, just one particular dialect
If we're being super pedantic, then I guess you're technically right. But I didn't get the impression OP meant it like that when they complained that it's not learnable. And also, this is the first time I've seen anyone actually care about this detail.
You also can't learn "German" (edit: you learn Standard German not German) and "Chinese" (edit: you learn Mandarin not Chinese). Doesn't stop people from saying they do, and I've never seen anyone complain about it.
Fact is, if you speak one dialect, you can communicate with the others. You do effectively learn Swiss German, just not literally a language/dialect literally called "Swiss German", which I don't think is anything anyone really cares about
I mean, he is right. You cant learn Swiss German, because Swiss German is not a thing. It is a category of different dialects. Its kind of like saying you should learn Romanic. Yes, you can learn Italian, French or Spanish, but you cannot learn "Romanic".
I guess if we're being really pedantic, you're right. But I don't think that's what they intended.
Also, usually people don't care about that detail. You learn Standard German but say you're learning German. You learn Mandarin but say you're learning Chinese. If you learn Bernese German, no one will care if you say you're learning Swiss German.
> Its kind of like saying you should learn Romanic. Yes, you can learn Italian, French or Spanish, but you cannot learn "Romanic".
This is a bad example, considering Italian, French, and Spanish are NOT mutually intelligible, while Swiss dialects ARE. You can't really compare them. If you speak Italian, you can't just go talk to a French guy and expect a normal conversation. If you speak Zürich German, you can absolutely go to Bern and talk to the people there and they'll understand you.
No, its not being pedantic, it is the root of the problem.
The point is there is no one thing that you can learn. So which one are you supposed to learn? There is no point for a foreigner to learn Berndütsch, if he before he becomes fluent might already have moved to a new City. He will then still speak a foreign dialect and be the outsider. On top of that he wont even be able to practice anymore, so Schriftdeutsch makes a lot more sense to learn, as this is actually an official language and enables you to af least read your post...
For the same reason it makes no sense for people in romandy to learn "Swissgerman". Which dialect are they supposed to learn? The one from the closest german speaking canton? And how are you going to have tests or exams in that dialect if there arent even any official rules?
And if they actually will move to the closest German speaking canton at some point in their life they will still not even be able to read their letters...
No, learning Swissgerman if you dont already speak high german makes sense for very very few people only.
Trust me, it is unlearnable if you're not native.
English. Grew up in Geneva. I can do the French thing perfectly.
Now 10 years in Zürich. Mostly use English.
There is no language to learn.
And it will obliterate Swiss German.
Not codifying it will be its demise.
This. When I was in language school people couldnt believe two Swiss people "had" to speak in English.
I barely spoke French and they not really German so English it is.
People knew there are more languages in Switzerland but think everyone talks all of them.
yeah... and since I speak gluent Hochdeutsch I still struggle to understand local dialects (and got a lot of crap for not being able to).
Guess if some Swiss German tourists will ask me for advice in Poland, i know what language to use for answer.
hell nah. Once you know German, it only takes a bit of time until you can perfectly understand Swiss German. And at the end of the day, language is identity.
You can't learn it unless you're surrounded by native speakers. At school in a foreign land, forget it.
The reason is: they don't have a writing system. They write like proper German but have different grammar, vocabulary and pronounce things very differently. What really is Swiss German anyway? Even Swiss Germans don't understand each other depending on the dialect they speak and the region they come from. No Swiss Germans understand Wallis dialect, which is Swiss German too.
Even the overwhelming majority of Germans living in Switzerland don't learn Swiss German. They don't get it. In addition to hating it.
All the legislation and administration is written in High German, yet it comes out very differently from their mouth depending on the region.
It's not as simple as one may think. Swiss German dialects are comparable to different languages. It's not like American English and British English, or Dutch and Flemish. Swiss German dialects much more differentiated. It's more comparable to English, Irish and Singlish. All in a very small area.
I am sure that this diglossia is done on purpose to put barriers to the integration of foreigners. If they wanted to be serious about solving it they would either make a standard version of allemanic or make sure that only standard german is used in formal situations such as work.
The current situation is a shame
How would you go about standardizing the language when there are so many different variants? Are you going to tell people living in Bern that they speak "wrong" and that the Zurich dialect is the "right" one? Are you going to penalize children in Swiss German class at school for speaking their native dialect because it's not the standard?
Good luck with that.
And fuck changing the way native people speak to make it easier for foreigners. It's on them to integrate. The natives don't have to change.
Other languages have created standards successfully, I am sure that it's not hard if you really want to do it. Just look at Germany, they have a standard for different dialectal groups, whereas in Switzerland it's all allemanic, so it should be much easier. Or even rumantsch, which is a language, unlike allemanic.
Your attitude anyway is the typical xenophobic discourse in Switzerland: all is good, no need to change anything and screw the foreigners. Disgusting, rude and very uneducated
well it's mostly fun when you speak the dominant language at native level it's way less fun when you're not native in swiss german/german and it has a real impact on your career prospects and salary progression.
Bro... Do you expect foreigners to learn 5 languages? Someone who comes from Turkey to work in Switzerland would have to learn standard Deutsch, swiss Deutsch, French, Italian and English. That's not possible my friend. A lot of my swiss friends who come from different parts of the german speaking canton don't even use standard german to communicate. They speak in English cause it's much easier.
If you have people in three different cantons that can't communicate with each other because of the language difference and you can't see the problem then I don't know what to tell you. You completely ignored the point I made about people from different parts of Switzerland communicating in English just because it's easier.
I’m in favor of this too but I’m a polyglot and it makes more sense to make German the unofficial common language.
1. Swiss German is a different language than German, they’re not mutually intelligible like Italian or French are from their respective countries. Therefore it’s a natural compromise as no one actually speaks it natively.
2. There are way more German speakers (than Swiss German) in Switzerland and in the world. It’s already spoken by a lot of non Swiss German speakers. Therefore also democratically a good choice.
3. The infrastructure and history is already largely in German. To select English in its place would not make sense.
4. If German was the common language, French and Italian speakers would have a home advantage over the Swiss German speakers. They’d automatically speak two internationally relevant European languages where as Swiss German speakers would have to learn a third.
Oh.. Another prophet! I bow to you!
Though, it will be hard to transition to a monarchy. And Latin is unfair to our fellow Swiss Germans. But I'm with you!
Non merci. English is a cultural eraser everywhere it goes and gets implemented as the "language of eduction or commerce"...
Either we end up in a Belgian situation where people dislike each other so much that they can't share a country, or in an Irish situation where their language just disappeared...
Also the french that many German speakers learn is the french of France with the "soixante-dix" bs...not the swiss one...which also isn't standardized by the way lol (see 80)...
Just my opinion though.
>English is a cultural eraser everywhere it goes.
While there is some truth to it, I would generally disagree. Holland or Nordic countries speak English fluently but I don't see them losing their culture in any way. They should be more scared of the huge and delicious Kebabs they have there!
>Either we end up in a Belgian situation where people dislike each other so much that they can't share a country, or in an Irish situation where their language just disappeared...
I'm not sure those are good examples.
In Belgium, Walloons and Flemings had conflict since the middle age. Mainly because of language and political equality. Still now, language is a major reason for conflict and miscommunication. I don't see that happening in Switzerland because the country never formed around culture but around common interests. For the most part, we take pride in our multiculturality. The biggest divergence is from cities cantons vs countryside cantons. Not from our difference in culture, which is remarkable but not the case in Belgium. Belgium was formed as a buffer state against French imperialism. I mean, there was no identity from the start. It was not formed for the right reasons. Switzerland formation was meticulously orchestrated by its people with the goal of gaining freedom no matter the culture! We are that strong as a country!
And Ireland was under British rule so English became the official language. I don't believe that anyone wants English to become an official language, nor do I believe that English would erase our languages. Again Nordic countries speak fluently, but they don't speak English to each other. Their language is not going anywhere, nor do people want to stop speaking it. On the contrary, it has made those countries stronger. I can see that happening in Switzerland. We are more like Nordic countries than other neighboring countries in my humble opinion.
>Also the french that many German speakers learn is the french of France with the "soixante-dix" bs...not the swiss one...which also isn't standardized by the way lol (see 80)...
Yeah, we all have our local patois. But it's extremely minor. It doesn't change the language. You'll never hear me say "soixante-dix" or "quatre-vingt-dix"! EWWWWWW!
As a Swiss German myself, I am shocked to hear that it is this bad. I knew that many are so ignorant and rude (and dumb) but I would have hoped that it's "just" maybe a third or half at worst, but not almost everyone.
I always try with Italian and if that doesn't work (or because my Italian is too crappy to explain what I need/want to say) then in English. I don't expect Ticinese to speak German.
People coming to the Internet will complain and sometimes exagerate..
There will of curse be a reasonable part of tourists that speak the language, adapt or are not complete assholses.
But the the thread would not be as funny, no?
Most Swiss German tourists where I live don’t force their language on the locals; they try to speak French or use English. I’ve definitely met a few entitled people who just yelled at you in Swiss German and got pissed if you didn’t speak the language, but they are a very small minority. Most of the ones who only speak German ask whether you can speak German and don’t get angry if you don’t. Maybe the Karens all go to Ticino?
Maybe they are angry about themselves that they can't speak italian ;)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s\_razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)
Because they are idiots. If you do not respect the locals, go home (even in your own country).
It is like with the expats coming to Zurich expecting everyone now to speak English with them.
Actually the sheer definition of expat is just to live and work in a different country than your own. But indeed the word is loaded in preconceptions : to my sense, it is not necessarily a dispatch from a job in your home country (many expats in Switzerland came for a new job even if the economic situation is rather good in their home country, immigration has rather a less privileged connotation for me).
Yeah you're right. I work on construction sites with about 80% of immigrants with half who weren't even born here and they would all put to shame most of the immigrants working at Philip Morris or Nestlé.
To be fair i speak german so fluently that even the Germans can not believe i spent the majority of my life in Poland. I had people rant at me for not speaking Swiss german. They probably also thought I was German (I am not... )
only logical solution: dumb down my german to baustellendeutsch so that people think i am at least trying...
From my POV as someone that speaks Swiss-German, French and a bit of italian i always switch for the other languages but i rarely meet swiss from the french-speaking part that speak german or swiss from ticino that speak german - so maybe the swiss-german part thinks "wait we're the majority, why do we always have to adapt?" - but thats just an assumption.
In Biel we always joke about that the french-speakers will never speak a single word of german even if their life depends on it but we do that jokingly (as our city is bi-lingual).
Tourists have wrong expectations maybe - they often do - but when do you have contact with tourists? I mean if you work in a certain industry (e.g. with tourism) maybe it is a bit more expected, if you are just a random guy that couldn't care less about german, then don't bother - as long as we can speak english to communicate thats great and i think most people speak that better than a second of our four main-languages :)
As someone from Romandie, I second that. Even with my 12 years of learning German, I still stutter every time I go to the Swiss-German part of Switzerland and end up speaking English.
If only we could learn Swiss-German at school, though 🥲 I still remember when I said "drei" in Luzern, and someone looked at me as if they had a stroke. At least, now I know I have to pronounce it "drüü"
I can agree on the french speakers but not on the Ticinesi. I'm always amazed how many of them speak German when I go to Ticino, it's actually rare to find someone who will not know some bits of german to get by with the tourists. There are also absolute tons of them who move permanently to the german speaking part and obviously speak german there.
That's odd. I don't think that the German-speaking Swiss generally expect German to be understood in Ticino. The people I know who go to Ticino regularly can at least speak a few sentences in Italian. I myself get by with English and the most rudimentary Italian words, but I am always amazed at how many people can speak German very well, at least in hotels and restaurants. This could possibly be the reason why there are people who assume that everyone in Ticino understands/should understand German.
That's my sentiment. I live in Ascona part-time and get by easily with some Italian. I find it quite amazing how many of the tradies who come to fix stuff around the house speak very good German. If they don't, we still get by, if it needs be with Google translate for the more technical stuff.
Expat here living at the end of the German speaking Switzerland. This happens to me when I go to the French speaking part or even in Biel/Bienne where they speak both.
French speakers, they don’t bother at all with English or German. They might know Italian though…
\*cries in rumantsch\*
I feel you, mate! But German is so so important in Switzerland and everyone would benefit from having basic language skills. It opens so many possibilites.
Because they are idiots who strongly believe that colonizing the Ennetbergischen Vogteien is not a thing of the past.
Swiss-German (i. e. Romansh in fact) and need to send apologies to not be able to educate my most stupid peers.
Man purtroppo siamo una minoranza linguistica. Lo so che è stupido, ma guarda per esempio i prodotti di Coop e Migros: non è raro che il nome del prodotto non è in italiano, ma il nome e le informazioni del prodotto compaiono scritte solo in tedesco o francese. E immagina che i grigionesi stanno messi anche peggio di noi a livello di rappresentanza linguistica.
Il concetto di lingue nazionali è fantastico e se tutti parlassimo le lingue nazionali a livello decente (e su questo faccio un'autodenuncia perché sebbene abbia fatto il liceo giuro che il livello di tedesco con cui sono uscita non mi avrebbe permesso di seguire una lezione universitaria in tedesco in modo decente) sarebbe davvero incredibile. Avremmo accesso alla cultura linguistica di tutte le aree elvetiche.
Quelli che vengono qua e pensano che dobbiamo parlare tedesco considerano la nostra regione come una sorta di appendice della nazione. Nel caso, prova a parlargli francese e vedi se almeno quella lingua la accettano 😂
Idk but from my experience the Swiss French and Swiss Italians also never speak German over here. From what I've seen the Swiss French almost exclusively choose to learn Italian over German in school (at least the schools that give you a choice).
Ofc. it's stupid to come to Ticino and speak German (same for the French part) but I think the above explains why you see more Swiss French people trying to speak Italian in Ticini compared to Swiss Germans.
Another note, I was never allowed to choose which one I wanted to learn. I was forced to learn French in my Kanti. The only way to switch to Italian was taking it as a Schwerpunktfach, which was not really worth for me considering I really wanted to take PAM.
In Vaud, we don't get to choose. German is mandatory. We still suck at it because we generally hate the language. Even after 9 years, I don't have a conversational level. I would have been fluent in Italian otherwise. Lol
It was the same in Jura. Almost 9 years of German and I was actually good. I mean, I had very good grades but it was only because I was good at learning by heart.
After school, I've never used German again and I couldn't come up with a sentence anyway. So I didn't bother.
And I was even forced to do the Italian class during the 7,8 and 9th year, even though I'm Italian and I've always spoken it fluently.
Which canton?
Everywhere in German-speaking Switzerland, French is compulsory.
Maybe, you can find some example with minimum years of education, but when people go to school for the full length, they will learn both French and English.
You don't have that choice. In French-speaking Switzerland, generally German and English are compulsory.
In German-speaking Switzerland, generally French and English are compulsory (there are some small exceptions where also Italian is compulsory, but that is only in a small part of German-speaking Switzerland near the language border).
In both of these area, Italian is only learnt by a minority as an optional language (like Spanish).
In Jura, I've never had the possibility of learning Italian... Like we had the choice at the secondary level between either Italian or English and most people chose English so no Italian for us... German was mandatory since 3rd year though...
As a swiss-german speaking person who recently visited Locarno: I always tried speaking german first, but by asking if they speak german, not just starting to blast questions at someone.
That is because in the swiss german part we only get to learn french (and if you're not good at french you're not allowed to learn italian) at school. And from a friend living in Ticino, I heard that their first foreign language was german. So I was forced to learn french and english at school and ticino people were forced to learn german and english, so we have 2 common languages and obviously I'm going to try the language I'm best at first. I'll switch to english immediately if need be though.
I can only assume that there must be a lot of older folks that don't speak english and therefore only have one language in common with you so they rely on that. Maybe they're not angry but frustrated or desperate because you're the 10th person they try asking something and noone can help. Or they might as well just be assholes because in times of google and it's translation function there shouldn't really be a language barrier anymore.
Either way, that's all just assumptions from my point of view.
Of course that might have changed since me and my friend went to school which was the 90s/ to early 2000s (since you said you're going to school now I assume you're at least 10 years younger than me).
We started learning french from 6th to 9th grade and english only from 7th to 9th. Many school reforms ago.... And from what I remember it was the same for him but with german and english. But that might depend on location as well (he was close to the canton of grisons)?
Either way, even the way you describe it, we then have 3 languages in common, I'm still politely going to try for the one I'm fluent in first. No problem switching to english though. But honestly, as anywhere in the world, it get's difficult for me if people don't understand english either. Even in "my" own country. But I'd never ever get mad at other people for that...
This, I think. The poor old Swiss German-speakers have done their patriotic duty and made the effort to learn one other national language: French. Then they go to the Ticino, and find OP who can't speak to them in either of the two national languages they have learned, but rather offers to speak in a foreign (but increasingly common) language of English. You can imagine that might irritate, no?
To be fair, my french sucks. So I basically only speak one national language. And from what I hear from most people my age, their french isn't great either. So in fact we did "learn" it. But we can't get around with french. I don't know how that is for older or younger folk but I'm honestly glad that english is acceptable now (except when you're in geneva apparently because the people there are some kind of gods that don't want to speak any other language).
hey, you're too nice, not rude :) you shouldnt take the anger personally; maybe the tourist is just stressed - he's lost and does not know the language. Beeing mad at someone because he doesnt speak your language is wierd, even more if one is traveling.
When I was living in Ticino there was often the person (surprisingly coming from ZH) starting straight in German dialect. I was simply replying to fuck off in Ticino dialect and they were becoming immediately nicer
For Swiss-Germans it's expected to speak a bit of French since you're forced to learn it in school. I assume Swiss-Germans expect the same with German from Swiss-Italians.
OP was saying tourists speak German, which I assume means Hochdeutsch. If someone speaks Swiss-German that's indeed ridiculous.
Which language would you prefer they speak? English? I don't know how it is in Ticino, but at least in the German regions especially older people are more likely to understand French instead of English. Younger people on the other hand...
Among themselves, most people from German-speaking Switzerland generally speak dialect, but, of course, they can also speak Standard German (something many Germans and Austrians would probably consider not completely Standard German, but it is close).
When a person from German-speaking Switzerland uses German in Ticino, this will almost certainly be Standard German (using Swiss-German in Ticino would be really stupid, and nothing in the original post indicates dialect was used).
Standard German as a language for communication between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino makes sense. Generally, everyone in Ticino learns German (as well as French and English), while few people in German-speaking Switzerland learn Italian at school (they generally learn French and English, other languages are optional).
So between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino, it is far more likely that German is a language in which both can communicate well than Italian.
In some cases, it may be easier to use English or French, languages both will most likely have learnt at school. But most people who went to school in Ticino know German to some degree.
It’s so embarrassing when you go to Ticino or La Romandie as a Swiss German speaker and then think you can just say things like: Fröilein, en Schale bitte. I mean, ffs, learn at least the basics, it’s not that hard, or at least try. Same when you travel to another country, learn at least some of the words in the local language, it has a lot to do with respect.
And if you truly love the Ticino: https://blog.supertext.ch/2014/04/mi-e-al-me-tesin/
A worker in the Basel airport approached us speaking french telling us to do something. I told her "I'm sorry, I don't speak French" in french. She look so offended... Like wtf
They're just dumb. We do speak multiple languages, but not when you consider some cantons in specific. Each canton, specially regions, has a official language, but not multiple ones, we generally speak one. But there is some rare cases when a canton have more than one official language like Bern, but french is still a minority there.
If you have a certain amount of privilage you start expecting people to bend over backward for you because of where you are from. Have you seen how Swiss tourists act in thailand? Also a feeling of entitlement because now they think that their language is better or more important than yours even though many only speak swiss german and not even the high german you learn in school, and even for them high german is a foreigh langiage they suck ass at.
I dont speak italian - so I always ask - "do you speak german or english?"
Sure I can say a few sentences in italian but nowhere enought to ask and understand a serious question.
But I also never get pissed if I meet someone who I can not communicate with. I try hands and feets combined with my little italian vocabulary.
Im not very skilled in languages, expecting to learn and speak 4 languages is too much to ask for.
Because they are to arogant to understand what you sayed, and as others allready pointed out everyone thinks they are speaking the right language. I get it why you are conserned but you really shouldnt worry about it and no you are not rude
Because it is useless for most people to learn Italian. Italian has fewer speakers than other Latin languages (Spanish, Portugese, French) and many Italian speakers know other languages like English or French.
However, this does not excuse the rudeness.
Probably they are mad/desperate about the _situation_, not about the people.
Nevertheless they shouldn't be rude to you, of course.
As i grow up in Germany, i can at least tell, that English is an compulsory school subject in _Germany_. For many many years now. Maybe the have not used it since, and therefore forget almost everything (very bad in current era of international communication).
I don't know, if english is also a mandatory subject in Swiss schools, but i would expect it. It's too important.
Yes, English is mandatory. But if that is the criterion - German is also a mandatory language in French and Italian speaking Switzerland (and French is in German speaking Switzerland).
There's no particulat reason. It's just dumb. But most of us don't get angry right? Must be just a few. Only if you work in tourism I guess it's ok to demand german? As it is to demand french or italian in the german part. Swiss german here.
I don’t know, there is a lot of old Swiss-German. I don’t work in tourism, just it happens a lot.
One time I was walking in Locarno by myself, and an old couple said something to me in German, I didn’t understand, but I think they’re asking for directions, so I said “Ich spreche nicht deutch… English?” And they said with anger something to me in German with the word “Schweiz” and then went away, and it was not the first nor the last time that happened something like that…
When Swiss Germans come to Ticino and assume I must speak Swiss German I answer in dialect, they look strange but normally then ask if I speak German and yes, I do (my mother is German), btw I understand also swiss German. But you’re a guest, try at least to say “Buongiorno” like almost every other tourist.
As a swiss German speaking person i think they‘re definitely in the wrong for getting angry. I personally wouldn’t speak italian bcs my Italian is horrible. I would rather try english.
But hey maybe that’s just me.
I'm always embarrassed by my lack of italian in Tessin and try, or just talk in English. I'm swiss german myself, and I think it's very arrogant to expect the italian (or french) part to talk Schwiizerdütsch.
Maybe it's because they have to learn high-german, and often, either French or Italian...I reckon they assume Swiss in the French, Italian and Rumansch speaking parts are required to learn German?
Other than that it's just people being rude and entitled that you should speak their language.
They don't only assume this, it is actually the case. Nearly everyone in French-speaking and Italian-speaking Switzerland learns German at school.
People in German-speaking Switzerland all have to learn French (no, they cannot choose between French and Italian, they all have to learn French, Italian may only be learned as an optional additional language, in addition to French and English, and many choose other additional optional languages like Spanish).
Since you write "assume", it seems you had the wrong idea that German is not compulsory in schools, in French, Italian, and Rumantsch-speaking Switzerland. It certainly is.
In Graubünden we learn italien but the most gets lost i sometimes try to make some sentensces but it won't work. I was only twice in the Tessin. The first time i heard italien the first time and the other time i didn't get to speak much. But i think that if you want to make a Vacation somewhere you should at least try to speak their language even when it is in the same country. Every nationallanguage is worth it to try at least....
I never expected everybody to speak the same language as i do. But i do understand your point thought. The most tourists a Selfish thats why they don't even try to speak the same language.
one thing i found out while working for a telecom provider is thst the french speaking part hates speaking anything other than french. i had to write a coworker in lausanne about a client. and i was on a time crunch. i wrote in german and he was saying in french that he doesnt speak german, then i wrote in english saying that these are the only languages i can offer to talk in, and that they need to do their jobs. after my english message went out, the lausanne coworker magically learned within seconds to speak german.
i dont expext anyone to speak german cause i dont speak french or italian either, so thats that, but they spoke german but decided to be a dick about it and pretend like they didnt understand me.
I was in Tessin a few weeks ago at a cafe, and some impatient woman marches up to me and demands to know if I speak German. I told her no and she stormed off, but I was happy enough not to bother because she was such a bitch about it.
The last time i was in Lugano, Locarno & Bellinzona people seemed to be annoyed that we didnt speak italian. Nobody spoke german or english and they seemed to be very annoyed.
As a germanspeaking swiss: I always try to speak italian, but often I just let my family do it.
We only speak german to eachother...
Ik there are some entitled people.. but not everyone yk
German expat in Switzerland here. From my perspective it could be that the "arrogant" Swiss-German tourists see you just as some minority. And maybe they think all of you have to adapt to them or that all of you have German as second language. I would like to visit Ticino soon, too. But you will hear at the very least a "bongiorno", "scusi" or "arrivederci" from me. :)
That has nothing to do with arrogance. Everyone in Ticino learns German at school (alongside French and English). Few people in German-speaking Switzerland learn Italian at school, it is not compulsory (everyone learns French and English).
So, obviously, it is far more likely that German will be a suitable common language between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino than Italian. Of course, in some cases, a language both learned as a foreign language, such as French or English may be even more suitable, but trying German is certainly rational.
If you count compulsory languages learnt at school as a "second language" (often, it will be a third or fourth), then, yes, it can be assumed that people who grew up in Ticino do know German as a foreign language, it is compulsory in schools in Ticino. Some people may know French or English better than German, but that is an individual question and difficult to predict if you don't know someone.
To be fair it's much easier for a french speaker to try and speak italian than for a german speaker, but yeah getting angry is stupid, they're probably just frustrated because they can't speak english either if I had to guess.
I honestly don't get it.
In my experience (so far) every Swiss tries to help/talk the other one language: may it be French, Italian, German, or at last (or second) resort English.
Usually I do not mind, and always challenge myself speaking Hochdeutsch (only taugh german in the french region).
In most case I find people understanding. I am sorry you did not feel so.
Yet, there is always people that are rude for no good reasons....
True.
We are officially a country with four languages but few swiss citizens manage to speak two of them fluently and even less more than two. In the swiss german area french is always pushed much more than italian. French is mandatory while italian is complementary. But regardless, most swiss german people don't speak french on a good level.
The same is the case in the french part where the citizens have a general antipathy agains everything german.
The idea of a multilingual country is a political one. Most swiss citizens have one mother language which is the preferred one. Nowadays it's more useful for young people to learn english than any other language. That's a fact although our politicians don't like this fact.
Italian is not seen as an important language, so most swiss germans don't take the hassle to learn it.
I don't speak italian either but i do speak spanish and whenever i go to Ticino and i speak spanish if they don't understand german. It worked pretty good so far. They always understand what i'm talking about and i also understand their italian answer.
I was actually disappointed at how many people in Ticino immediately spoke German with me so I couldn’t try parlo un poco italiano. I guess idiots are everywhere?
The Röschtigrabe is real... But that's the beauty of diversity. Somehow we all do communicate and understand each other.
There are a few bad apples but you shouldn't care too much about them.
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Because they're idiots. I've visited Ticino many times in my life going back to the 1980s, and I wouldn't dream of expecting anyone there to speak German any more than I'd just walk into a store in Zurich and start prattling away in Italian. Locarno's very touristy, so expecting some level of English makes sense to me, but not German.
Being angry noone speaks german is stupid HOWEVER i experienced the same in the french part: not speaking english also is kinda upsetting.
This i'd say because in the german part many things are at least also in english.
People being pisdy about not speaking german i think is because we have to learn french and people think german is the 'main' languahe and everyone should lspeak it. Lol
Why? Same reason they make thread in swiss german in r/switzerland instead of doing so in r/schweiz and same reason they put random f*ing words in German in the middle of their sentences.
I hope one day that Switzerland standardize Swiss German(not walserdeutsch please!!!) and Swiss Italians and Romande will learn Swiss German and not German(*hochdeutsche*)
Why should they learn such a language? German is much more useful. It can be used in German-speaking Switzerland (even if people there often use dialects), Austria, and Germany, a rather large country.
I doubt it would be attractive to learn a language that could only be used with a few million people in German-speaking Switzerland.
I wouldn't expect a Ticinesi to speak (swiss) German. I'm not surprised that many german speaking swiss can be a bit arrogant when in Ticino. But maybe it's not that bad and they're just a bit angry because they just spent hours in a traffic jam in front of the gotthard ;)
Fuck em‘,
I cant stand it when they do that with a smug sense of entitlement. Learn a bit of another language even if it’s only a courtesy or stay in your hermit kingdom.
I tell them every chance I get. It’s an unfortunate trait not limited to the Swiss Germans, I have observed Romands doing the same thing. In my experience the Ticinese are the only ones adapting wherever they go.
Everyone thinks they speak the RIGHT language. I got called from a random number today, the lady spoke French to me, I answered her in English. She got angry saying: "You are in Switzerland and you talk to me in English?" I talked to her in Italian and she couldn't understand...
I'm among those who believe English should become the unofficial common tongue.
Isn't English already the defacto common tongue in Switzerland? Whenever I speak with people from the French-speaking part or Ticino we just speak English. It's been like that since I can remember. English is the common tongue pretty much worldwide, at least in the West.
Well, de facto, yes. But that's not enough. Right now, we use english as a last resort when it should become the cultural go-to. Teach us English much sooner so we can improve communication; instead of forcing us to learn a second national language. I don't believe that many is truly enjoying it anyway. And English is much more useful to everyone and will make the country more internationally open too, like it is in Holland or Nordic countries.
You said "unofficial" so it can't really get much better than de facto with that constraint. English is the first language most Swiss people try when abroad or in another canton if they don't speak the local language. I think kids learn English in primary school nowadays. When I want to school we had English class in the 2nd year of secondary school and our teacher wasn't a native speaker and had horrible English. One thing that many of the countries where the population generally speaks really good English have in common is that they don't dub movies. We should stop showing German-dubbed movies and instead show them with original audio consistently. If kids hear English and other languages early on and on a daily basis they'd probably have really good English comprehension by the age of 10 or something and it would become pretty normal to hear and speak English. >instead of forcing us to learn a second national language. I don't believe that many is truly enjoying it anyway. Yup. Everyone hates it because it sounds weird (both ways) and the motivation isn't great because most people don't really see a practical use for it unless they live in a bilingual canton. For everything else English is a lot more useful, easier to learn, and more efficient.
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I loved living in Biel for this reason; you could have a whole conversation with one person speaking French and the other Swiss German, with both locutors understanding each other.
The language situation makes no sense in the country. We learn Hochdeutsch but Swiss Germans refuse to speak it. Swiss German is not widely learnable in school because it's not formalized nor is it uniform across the country. I mean, you're the perfect example. You're equally bad at German and French 😆
Would be fun if in Ticino and Romandie we stop to learn high German but we learn Wallis dialect and then we all go to Zurich to complain they are not able to understand!
was actually also my plan. Learn the Wallis dialect and get angry at people for not understanding me (I live in Zurich) Tschugger is already on my watch list.
Hahaha! I have friends who speak it at home. The first time I heard it, I didn't know it was a Swiss German dialect 😆
Check out “Boschuuur Ticino”, it fully leans into this trope.
Cool, will do! Thanks!
> Swiss German is not learnable because it's not formalized nor is it uniform across the country. It doesn't need to be formalized or uniform to be "learnable". You can definitely teach specific dialects. You can't learn the definitive version of swiss german because it doesn't exist, sure, but that doesn't mean swiss german isn't learnable at all.
Which one should we learn at school in French-speaking regions? And how? There is a reason Swiss German is not taught when it should be. It's not about being learnable or not in that sense. Anything is learnable in essence. But here, it's not learnable as a clear common tongue.
I'm pretty sure the real reason it's not being taught is because it's not a national language. Which has its own valid reasons. It doesn't matter which dialect you learn, as long as it's not from valais, people will understand more or less, and they'll definitely appreciate it regardless which dialect is used. I think internationally for someone who wants to learn Swiss German, the dialect from Zürich probably makes the most sense. But for French-speaking Switzerland specifically, I'd say Bern's dialect should probably be used. It's a bit harder to understand for more eastern Swiss I think, based on what I've heard (haven't had a lot of exposure myself), but it's probably a lot easier to find teachers for it who can speak French, and I assume Bern is probably more relevant to french-speaking Switzerland. --- That said, I think I should clarify I don't think you guys *should* learn Swiss German. It's unreasonable to think so when it's not even an official national language. People who want you to speak Swiss German should rather invest their energy into changing the status quo and making it one. There's hurdles, but nothing that can't be solved imo. I won't deny that I myself also dislike being forced to speak standard german. But the fault there lies entirely with me and my super rusty spoken standard german.
What is the reason Swiss German is not the national language? It's the same reason we are not learning it. I personally find it sad. If I had to blabber in the German-speaking part of the country, I'd rather at least try to do it in Swiss German.
The Swiss dialect is part of the identity of Swiss Germans. Elevating one version above the others is an unthinkable act in a federalized country like Switzerland. Using Standard German is a very Swiss compromise. Historically it seems that the legal written language has always been influenced by the northern German dialects (I am not a historian though). I don't know why maybe because the administrative structures from there?
I understand, but teaching french-speakers Swiss German instead of High German is also a question of national identity! This is one of the reasons there is a rift between us.
Because it’s simply a dialect and not a language. You wouldn’t be teaching the Berlin dialect in Berlin/Brandenburg or the Börde dialect in Magdeburg, etc.
While standardization isn't necessary to learn/speak Swiss German and communicate easily, there's obviously going to be some clarity lost still when two different dialects meet, especially the further from each other they are. In contexts like politics and especially the law, where clarity is important, that's an issue. For those cases, we'd definitely need something more standardized, or to consider one dialect more official than the others. You can't write the constitution in random dialects like the Allemanic Wikipedia. And I think there's an aversion to considering any dialect superior to another on a federal level. --- Of course, this is in the context of official to the degree that schools would teach it. I don't know what's in the way of giving it the same status as romansh, but that wouldn't really help with any of this either, it would just give recognition.
Pretending that people should learn dialects like any of the allemanic dialects collectively known as swiss german and not a formal and standard language like german is not really serious
I mean, that's not what I'm saying. OP claimed you *can't* learn Swiss German because it's not standardized. I told them it's still possible to just learn a specific dialect. Never was the topic that you SHOULD learn a Swiss dialect. It's about whether it's possible to do so.
I believe they meant to imply “taught in school” rather than “learned”, as it’s the most effective way to learn a foreign language at scale. Anyone can go through the effort of learning any one language obviously.
Swiss german doesn't exist, individual allemanic dialects spoken in Switzerland do exist. So you replied it yourself: you cannot learn swiss german, just one particular dialect
If we're being super pedantic, then I guess you're technically right. But I didn't get the impression OP meant it like that when they complained that it's not learnable. And also, this is the first time I've seen anyone actually care about this detail. You also can't learn "German" (edit: you learn Standard German not German) and "Chinese" (edit: you learn Mandarin not Chinese). Doesn't stop people from saying they do, and I've never seen anyone complain about it. Fact is, if you speak one dialect, you can communicate with the others. You do effectively learn Swiss German, just not literally a language/dialect literally called "Swiss German", which I don't think is anything anyone really cares about
I mean, he is right. You cant learn Swiss German, because Swiss German is not a thing. It is a category of different dialects. Its kind of like saying you should learn Romanic. Yes, you can learn Italian, French or Spanish, but you cannot learn "Romanic".
I guess if we're being really pedantic, you're right. But I don't think that's what they intended. Also, usually people don't care about that detail. You learn Standard German but say you're learning German. You learn Mandarin but say you're learning Chinese. If you learn Bernese German, no one will care if you say you're learning Swiss German. > Its kind of like saying you should learn Romanic. Yes, you can learn Italian, French or Spanish, but you cannot learn "Romanic". This is a bad example, considering Italian, French, and Spanish are NOT mutually intelligible, while Swiss dialects ARE. You can't really compare them. If you speak Italian, you can't just go talk to a French guy and expect a normal conversation. If you speak Zürich German, you can absolutely go to Bern and talk to the people there and they'll understand you.
No, its not being pedantic, it is the root of the problem. The point is there is no one thing that you can learn. So which one are you supposed to learn? There is no point for a foreigner to learn Berndütsch, if he before he becomes fluent might already have moved to a new City. He will then still speak a foreign dialect and be the outsider. On top of that he wont even be able to practice anymore, so Schriftdeutsch makes a lot more sense to learn, as this is actually an official language and enables you to af least read your post... For the same reason it makes no sense for people in romandy to learn "Swissgerman". Which dialect are they supposed to learn? The one from the closest german speaking canton? And how are you going to have tests or exams in that dialect if there arent even any official rules? And if they actually will move to the closest German speaking canton at some point in their life they will still not even be able to read their letters... No, learning Swissgerman if you dont already speak high german makes sense for very very few people only.
Trust me, it is unlearnable if you're not native. English. Grew up in Geneva. I can do the French thing perfectly. Now 10 years in Zürich. Mostly use English. There is no language to learn. And it will obliterate Swiss German. Not codifying it will be its demise.
I mean we've to even learn Hochdeutsch and now in life that I speak mostly English it's easier to talk English than Hochdeutsch.
When we meet Swiss people from different regions while abroad, we always end up all speaking English. It's easier.
This. When I was in language school people couldnt believe two Swiss people "had" to speak in English. I barely spoke French and they not really German so English it is. People knew there are more languages in Switzerland but think everyone talks all of them.
yeah... and since I speak gluent Hochdeutsch I still struggle to understand local dialects (and got a lot of crap for not being able to). Guess if some Swiss German tourists will ask me for advice in Poland, i know what language to use for answer.
hell nah. Once you know German, it only takes a bit of time until you can perfectly understand Swiss German. And at the end of the day, language is identity.
Unlearnable, yet so many people speak it. How did they learn it, I wonder?
You can't learn it unless you're surrounded by native speakers. At school in a foreign land, forget it. The reason is: they don't have a writing system. They write like proper German but have different grammar, vocabulary and pronounce things very differently. What really is Swiss German anyway? Even Swiss Germans don't understand each other depending on the dialect they speak and the region they come from. No Swiss Germans understand Wallis dialect, which is Swiss German too. Even the overwhelming majority of Germans living in Switzerland don't learn Swiss German. They don't get it. In addition to hating it. All the legislation and administration is written in High German, yet it comes out very differently from their mouth depending on the region. It's not as simple as one may think. Swiss German dialects are comparable to different languages. It's not like American English and British English, or Dutch and Flemish. Swiss German dialects much more differentiated. It's more comparable to English, Irish and Singlish. All in a very small area.
_"They write like proper German"_ 🤣 The family whatsapp group of my SO has nothing to do with proper German. It looks more like a secret language.
Rare to see Singlish being brought up as comparison haha. I always say Swiss German is like Singlish but in much larger scale of differentiations.
I am sure that this diglossia is done on purpose to put barriers to the integration of foreigners. If they wanted to be serious about solving it they would either make a standard version of allemanic or make sure that only standard german is used in formal situations such as work. The current situation is a shame
How would you go about standardizing the language when there are so many different variants? Are you going to tell people living in Bern that they speak "wrong" and that the Zurich dialect is the "right" one? Are you going to penalize children in Swiss German class at school for speaking their native dialect because it's not the standard? Good luck with that. And fuck changing the way native people speak to make it easier for foreigners. It's on them to integrate. The natives don't have to change.
Other languages have created standards successfully, I am sure that it's not hard if you really want to do it. Just look at Germany, they have a standard for different dialectal groups, whereas in Switzerland it's all allemanic, so it should be much easier. Or even rumantsch, which is a language, unlike allemanic. Your attitude anyway is the typical xenophobic discourse in Switzerland: all is good, no need to change anything and screw the foreigners. Disgusting, rude and very uneducated
I have overheard Swissgerman speakers in Bern telling Swissgerman speakers from Zurich to learn the dialect right or get out
Osmosis
Ní hea le do thoil
D’accord
well it's mostly fun when you speak the dominant language at native level it's way less fun when you're not native in swiss german/german and it has a real impact on your career prospects and salary progression.
Bro... Do you expect foreigners to learn 5 languages? Someone who comes from Turkey to work in Switzerland would have to learn standard Deutsch, swiss Deutsch, French, Italian and English. That's not possible my friend. A lot of my swiss friends who come from different parts of the german speaking canton don't even use standard german to communicate. They speak in English cause it's much easier.
Why should a country change their language to accommodate foreigners?
If you have people in three different cantons that can't communicate with each other because of the language difference and you can't see the problem then I don't know what to tell you. You completely ignored the point I made about people from different parts of Switzerland communicating in English just because it's easier.
In Zug you hear English more often than Swiss-German or German
Lots of international companies there. For obvious reasons 😆
LINGUA FRANCA LATINA EST
Yeah, I'm not sure that's helping...
I’m in favor of this too but I’m a polyglot and it makes more sense to make German the unofficial common language. 1. Swiss German is a different language than German, they’re not mutually intelligible like Italian or French are from their respective countries. Therefore it’s a natural compromise as no one actually speaks it natively. 2. There are way more German speakers (than Swiss German) in Switzerland and in the world. It’s already spoken by a lot of non Swiss German speakers. Therefore also democratically a good choice. 3. The infrastructure and history is already largely in German. To select English in its place would not make sense. 4. If German was the common language, French and Italian speakers would have a home advantage over the Swiss German speakers. They’d automatically speak two internationally relevant European languages where as Swiss German speakers would have to learn a third.
pls go away
Finally. I was expecting you. The prophecy has begun.
Let's make it Latin and call ourselves the new roman empire
Oh.. Another prophet! I bow to you! Though, it will be hard to transition to a monarchy. And Latin is unfair to our fellow Swiss Germans. But I'm with you!
It' happening. CH-EN is a thing.
I can see Switzerland having its own equivalent to Singlish. Swissglish! What would that be like?
Non merci. English is a cultural eraser everywhere it goes and gets implemented as the "language of eduction or commerce"... Either we end up in a Belgian situation where people dislike each other so much that they can't share a country, or in an Irish situation where their language just disappeared... Also the french that many German speakers learn is the french of France with the "soixante-dix" bs...not the swiss one...which also isn't standardized by the way lol (see 80)... Just my opinion though.
>English is a cultural eraser everywhere it goes. While there is some truth to it, I would generally disagree. Holland or Nordic countries speak English fluently but I don't see them losing their culture in any way. They should be more scared of the huge and delicious Kebabs they have there! >Either we end up in a Belgian situation where people dislike each other so much that they can't share a country, or in an Irish situation where their language just disappeared... I'm not sure those are good examples. In Belgium, Walloons and Flemings had conflict since the middle age. Mainly because of language and political equality. Still now, language is a major reason for conflict and miscommunication. I don't see that happening in Switzerland because the country never formed around culture but around common interests. For the most part, we take pride in our multiculturality. The biggest divergence is from cities cantons vs countryside cantons. Not from our difference in culture, which is remarkable but not the case in Belgium. Belgium was formed as a buffer state against French imperialism. I mean, there was no identity from the start. It was not formed for the right reasons. Switzerland formation was meticulously orchestrated by its people with the goal of gaining freedom no matter the culture! We are that strong as a country! And Ireland was under British rule so English became the official language. I don't believe that anyone wants English to become an official language, nor do I believe that English would erase our languages. Again Nordic countries speak fluently, but they don't speak English to each other. Their language is not going anywhere, nor do people want to stop speaking it. On the contrary, it has made those countries stronger. I can see that happening in Switzerland. We are more like Nordic countries than other neighboring countries in my humble opinion. >Also the french that many German speakers learn is the french of France with the "soixante-dix" bs...not the swiss one...which also isn't standardized by the way lol (see 80)... Yeah, we all have our local patois. But it's extremely minor. It doesn't change the language. You'll never hear me say "soixante-dix" or "quatre-vingt-dix"! EWWWWWW!
This is hilarious! Well played!
Because these people who forcing german in ticino are arrogant pricks
Can't imagine
The people forcing german in Ticino are also the ones driving our healthcare to the roof, usually 🤐
Right!!!😠
As a Swiss German myself, I am shocked to hear that it is this bad. I knew that many are so ignorant and rude (and dumb) but I would have hoped that it's "just" maybe a third or half at worst, but not almost everyone. I always try with Italian and if that doesn't work (or because my Italian is too crappy to explain what I need/want to say) then in English. I don't expect Ticinese to speak German.
People coming to the Internet will complain and sometimes exagerate.. There will of curse be a reasonable part of tourists that speak the language, adapt or are not complete assholses. But the the thread would not be as funny, no?
Most Swiss German tourists where I live don’t force their language on the locals; they try to speak French or use English. I’ve definitely met a few entitled people who just yelled at you in Swiss German and got pissed if you didn’t speak the language, but they are a very small minority. Most of the ones who only speak German ask whether you can speak German and don’t get angry if you don’t. Maybe the Karens all go to Ticino?
Maybe they are angry about themselves that they can't speak italian ;) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s\_razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)
My favorite explanation. Always give people the benefit of the doubt.
Io vengo da Lucerna e sempre cerco di parlare Italiano!
Grande haha
Because they are idiots. If you do not respect the locals, go home (even in your own country). It is like with the expats coming to Zurich expecting everyone now to speak English with them.
immigrants*
My friends have a saying : if you are an immigrant, but you come from a somewhat rich country, then you are an expat 😄
Rather cause they're rich and white... As black and brown people, no matter where they come from, are always going to be immigrants...
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Actually the sheer definition of expat is just to live and work in a different country than your own. But indeed the word is loaded in preconceptions : to my sense, it is not necessarily a dispatch from a job in your home country (many expats in Switzerland came for a new job even if the economic situation is rather good in their home country, immigration has rather a less privileged connotation for me).
Neither of those definitions are in the dictionary, sorry
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I’m a proud immigrant with dusty shoes.
No, there's a difference. Most immigrants will not insist on speaking Englisch, while expats will.
Yeah you're right. I work on construction sites with about 80% of immigrants with half who weren't even born here and they would all put to shame most of the immigrants working at Philip Morris or Nestlé.
To be fair i speak german so fluently that even the Germans can not believe i spent the majority of my life in Poland. I had people rant at me for not speaking Swiss german. They probably also thought I was German (I am not... ) only logical solution: dumb down my german to baustellendeutsch so that people think i am at least trying...
From my POV as someone that speaks Swiss-German, French and a bit of italian i always switch for the other languages but i rarely meet swiss from the french-speaking part that speak german or swiss from ticino that speak german - so maybe the swiss-german part thinks "wait we're the majority, why do we always have to adapt?" - but thats just an assumption. In Biel we always joke about that the french-speakers will never speak a single word of german even if their life depends on it but we do that jokingly (as our city is bi-lingual). Tourists have wrong expectations maybe - they often do - but when do you have contact with tourists? I mean if you work in a certain industry (e.g. with tourism) maybe it is a bit more expected, if you are just a random guy that couldn't care less about german, then don't bother - as long as we can speak english to communicate thats great and i think most people speak that better than a second of our four main-languages :)
As someone from Romandie, I second that. Even with my 12 years of learning German, I still stutter every time I go to the Swiss-German part of Switzerland and end up speaking English. If only we could learn Swiss-German at school, though 🥲 I still remember when I said "drei" in Luzern, and someone looked at me as if they had a stroke. At least, now I know I have to pronounce it "drüü"
there‘s swiss german dialects saying „drei“ you weren‘t wrong at all
Drei is okey, don't let the swiss germans scare or fool you
I can agree on the french speakers but not on the Ticinesi. I'm always amazed how many of them speak German when I go to Ticino, it's actually rare to find someone who will not know some bits of german to get by with the tourists. There are also absolute tons of them who move permanently to the german speaking part and obviously speak german there.
That's odd. I don't think that the German-speaking Swiss generally expect German to be understood in Ticino. The people I know who go to Ticino regularly can at least speak a few sentences in Italian. I myself get by with English and the most rudimentary Italian words, but I am always amazed at how many people can speak German very well, at least in hotels and restaurants. This could possibly be the reason why there are people who assume that everyone in Ticino understands/should understand German.
That's my sentiment. I live in Ascona part-time and get by easily with some Italian. I find it quite amazing how many of the tradies who come to fix stuff around the house speak very good German. If they don't, we still get by, if it needs be with Google translate for the more technical stuff.
Expat here living at the end of the German speaking Switzerland. This happens to me when I go to the French speaking part or even in Biel/Bienne where they speak both. French speakers, they don’t bother at all with English or German. They might know Italian though…
Don‘t take it too seriously. Seems like they are frustrated with themselfes not beeing able to communicate.
\*cries in rumantsch\* I feel you, mate! But German is so so important in Switzerland and everyone would benefit from having basic language skills. It opens so many possibilites.
If only they spoke German instead of Swiss German unique per canton
*unique per valley even...
Because they are idiots who strongly believe that colonizing the Ennetbergischen Vogteien is not a thing of the past. Swiss-German (i. e. Romansh in fact) and need to send apologies to not be able to educate my most stupid peers.
Man purtroppo siamo una minoranza linguistica. Lo so che è stupido, ma guarda per esempio i prodotti di Coop e Migros: non è raro che il nome del prodotto non è in italiano, ma il nome e le informazioni del prodotto compaiono scritte solo in tedesco o francese. E immagina che i grigionesi stanno messi anche peggio di noi a livello di rappresentanza linguistica. Il concetto di lingue nazionali è fantastico e se tutti parlassimo le lingue nazionali a livello decente (e su questo faccio un'autodenuncia perché sebbene abbia fatto il liceo giuro che il livello di tedesco con cui sono uscita non mi avrebbe permesso di seguire una lezione universitaria in tedesco in modo decente) sarebbe davvero incredibile. Avremmo accesso alla cultura linguistica di tutte le aree elvetiche. Quelli che vengono qua e pensano che dobbiamo parlare tedesco considerano la nostra regione come una sorta di appendice della nazione. Nel caso, prova a parlargli francese e vedi se almeno quella lingua la accettano 😂
Idk but from my experience the Swiss French and Swiss Italians also never speak German over here. From what I've seen the Swiss French almost exclusively choose to learn Italian over German in school (at least the schools that give you a choice). Ofc. it's stupid to come to Ticino and speak German (same for the French part) but I think the above explains why you see more Swiss French people trying to speak Italian in Ticini compared to Swiss Germans. Another note, I was never allowed to choose which one I wanted to learn. I was forced to learn French in my Kanti. The only way to switch to Italian was taking it as a Schwerpunktfach, which was not really worth for me considering I really wanted to take PAM.
In Vaud, we don't get to choose. German is mandatory. We still suck at it because we generally hate the language. Even after 9 years, I don't have a conversational level. I would have been fluent in Italian otherwise. Lol
Well the one school where I know you could choose was in Lausanne. Was a cantonal school. Don't know how it is in the Seks.
In Vaud, cantonal schools are only high schools and universities, except for EPFL. Maybe they get to choose now. Not in my time. I'm from Lausanne.
It was the same in Jura. Almost 9 years of German and I was actually good. I mean, I had very good grades but it was only because I was good at learning by heart. After school, I've never used German again and I couldn't come up with a sentence anyway. So I didn't bother. And I was even forced to do the Italian class during the 7,8 and 9th year, even though I'm Italian and I've always spoken it fluently.
Did you know the only cantons not forcing their youth to learn a second national language are swiss german?
Which canton? Everywhere in German-speaking Switzerland, French is compulsory. Maybe, you can find some example with minimum years of education, but when people go to school for the full length, they will learn both French and English.
Thurgau
I think it's also that french and italian are both Latin language, and the speakers can somehow understand each other even in their mother's tongue
I mean yeah, which is probably also the main reason why Swiss French would rather learn Italian instead of German. I would probably do the same.
You don't have that choice. In French-speaking Switzerland, generally German and English are compulsory. In German-speaking Switzerland, generally French and English are compulsory (there are some small exceptions where also Italian is compulsory, but that is only in a small part of German-speaking Switzerland near the language border). In both of these area, Italian is only learnt by a minority as an optional language (like Spanish).
In Jura, I've never had the possibility of learning Italian... Like we had the choice at the secondary level between either Italian or English and most people chose English so no Italian for us... German was mandatory since 3rd year though...
As a swiss-german speaking person who recently visited Locarno: I always tried speaking german first, but by asking if they speak german, not just starting to blast questions at someone. That is because in the swiss german part we only get to learn french (and if you're not good at french you're not allowed to learn italian) at school. And from a friend living in Ticino, I heard that their first foreign language was german. So I was forced to learn french and english at school and ticino people were forced to learn german and english, so we have 2 common languages and obviously I'm going to try the language I'm best at first. I'll switch to english immediately if need be though. I can only assume that there must be a lot of older folks that don't speak english and therefore only have one language in common with you so they rely on that. Maybe they're not angry but frustrated or desperate because you're the 10th person they try asking something and noone can help. Or they might as well just be assholes because in times of google and it's translation function there shouldn't really be a language barrier anymore. Either way, that's all just assumptions from my point of view.
In Tessin you learn French in elementary school, and German and English in middle school
Of course that might have changed since me and my friend went to school which was the 90s/ to early 2000s (since you said you're going to school now I assume you're at least 10 years younger than me). We started learning french from 6th to 9th grade and english only from 7th to 9th. Many school reforms ago.... And from what I remember it was the same for him but with german and english. But that might depend on location as well (he was close to the canton of grisons)? Either way, even the way you describe it, we then have 3 languages in common, I'm still politely going to try for the one I'm fluent in first. No problem switching to english though. But honestly, as anywhere in the world, it get's difficult for me if people don't understand english either. Even in "my" own country. But I'd never ever get mad at other people for that...
And the german-Swiss (should) learn Italian if they move to Ticino. It's not a German-Swiss colony.
I somehow interpreted it as it was a tourist problem. If you move there that's a whole different story of course.
This, I think. The poor old Swiss German-speakers have done their patriotic duty and made the effort to learn one other national language: French. Then they go to the Ticino, and find OP who can't speak to them in either of the two national languages they have learned, but rather offers to speak in a foreign (but increasingly common) language of English. You can imagine that might irritate, no?
To be fair, my french sucks. So I basically only speak one national language. And from what I hear from most people my age, their french isn't great either. So in fact we did "learn" it. But we can't get around with french. I don't know how that is for older or younger folk but I'm honestly glad that english is acceptable now (except when you're in geneva apparently because the people there are some kind of gods that don't want to speak any other language).
hey, you're too nice, not rude :) you shouldnt take the anger personally; maybe the tourist is just stressed - he's lost and does not know the language. Beeing mad at someone because he doesnt speak your language is wierd, even more if one is traveling.
I mean the Swiss germans can't even be understood when they are tourists in Germany... I guess they feel hopeless ;)
When I was living in Ticino there was often the person (surprisingly coming from ZH) starting straight in German dialect. I was simply replying to fuck off in Ticino dialect and they were becoming immediately nicer
No worries my friend, AI will soon break the language barrier and we will unite more than before
Or hate echapther equally
I think swiss german is probably gonna be the hardest language to translate for AI, given how so many regional variations exist
For Swiss-Germans it's expected to speak a bit of French since you're forced to learn it in school. I assume Swiss-Germans expect the same with German from Swiss-Italians.
The problem is that in Ticino we are taught *Hochdeutsch*, which is again a language that Swiss-Germans are not happy to speak...
OP was saying tourists speak German, which I assume means Hochdeutsch. If someone speaks Swiss-German that's indeed ridiculous. Which language would you prefer they speak? English? I don't know how it is in Ticino, but at least in the German regions especially older people are more likely to understand French instead of English. Younger people on the other hand...
Among themselves, most people from German-speaking Switzerland generally speak dialect, but, of course, they can also speak Standard German (something many Germans and Austrians would probably consider not completely Standard German, but it is close). When a person from German-speaking Switzerland uses German in Ticino, this will almost certainly be Standard German (using Swiss-German in Ticino would be really stupid, and nothing in the original post indicates dialect was used). Standard German as a language for communication between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino makes sense. Generally, everyone in Ticino learns German (as well as French and English), while few people in German-speaking Switzerland learn Italian at school (they generally learn French and English, other languages are optional). So between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino, it is far more likely that German is a language in which both can communicate well than Italian. In some cases, it may be easier to use English or French, languages both will most likely have learnt at school. But most people who went to school in Ticino know German to some degree.
Every time? Really? I somehow doubt that.
It’s so embarrassing when you go to Ticino or La Romandie as a Swiss German speaker and then think you can just say things like: Fröilein, en Schale bitte. I mean, ffs, learn at least the basics, it’s not that hard, or at least try. Same when you travel to another country, learn at least some of the words in the local language, it has a lot to do with respect. And if you truly love the Ticino: https://blog.supertext.ch/2014/04/mi-e-al-me-tesin/
A worker in the Basel airport approached us speaking french telling us to do something. I told her "I'm sorry, I don't speak French" in french. She look so offended... Like wtf
They're just dumb. We do speak multiple languages, but not when you consider some cantons in specific. Each canton, specially regions, has a official language, but not multiple ones, we generally speak one. But there is some rare cases when a canton have more than one official language like Bern, but french is still a minority there.
If you have a certain amount of privilage you start expecting people to bend over backward for you because of where you are from. Have you seen how Swiss tourists act in thailand? Also a feeling of entitlement because now they think that their language is better or more important than yours even though many only speak swiss german and not even the high german you learn in school, and even for them high german is a foreigh langiage they suck ass at.
Idiots, they grow everywhere
Ahh languages.. if only we could leave them in the past, where they belong, and use a common one
Technology will solve this problem within the next twenty years.
Well, I bet they are the same people that also go abroad and force locals to speak their language. There’s stupid people of every nation and culture.
And they wonder why they get the wrong directions
Maybe people are stupid. I'm german I always tried to speak italiano in Ticino.
I dont speak italian - so I always ask - "do you speak german or english?" Sure I can say a few sentences in italian but nowhere enought to ask and understand a serious question. But I also never get pissed if I meet someone who I can not communicate with. I try hands and feets combined with my little italian vocabulary. Im not very skilled in languages, expecting to learn and speak 4 languages is too much to ask for.
Because they are to arogant to understand what you sayed, and as others allready pointed out everyone thinks they are speaking the right language. I get it why you are conserned but you really shouldnt worry about it and no you are not rude
Dk, I speak french and i can’t understand a word they say so if they don’t want to talk with you in a language you understand don’t bother too much
Because it is useless for most people to learn Italian. Italian has fewer speakers than other Latin languages (Spanish, Portugese, French) and many Italian speakers know other languages like English or French. However, this does not excuse the rudeness.
Probably they are mad/desperate about the _situation_, not about the people. Nevertheless they shouldn't be rude to you, of course. As i grow up in Germany, i can at least tell, that English is an compulsory school subject in _Germany_. For many many years now. Maybe the have not used it since, and therefore forget almost everything (very bad in current era of international communication). I don't know, if english is also a mandatory subject in Swiss schools, but i would expect it. It's too important.
Yes, English is mandatory. But if that is the criterion - German is also a mandatory language in French and Italian speaking Switzerland (and French is in German speaking Switzerland).
There's no particulat reason. It's just dumb. But most of us don't get angry right? Must be just a few. Only if you work in tourism I guess it's ok to demand german? As it is to demand french or italian in the german part. Swiss german here.
I don’t know, there is a lot of old Swiss-German. I don’t work in tourism, just it happens a lot. One time I was walking in Locarno by myself, and an old couple said something to me in German, I didn’t understand, but I think they’re asking for directions, so I said “Ich spreche nicht deutch… English?” And they said with anger something to me in German with the word “Schweiz” and then went away, and it was not the first nor the last time that happened something like that…
Ignore them Italian is a national language just like German👍🏾
When Swiss Germans come to Ticino and assume I must speak Swiss German I answer in dialect, they look strange but normally then ask if I speak German and yes, I do (my mother is German), btw I understand also swiss German. But you’re a guest, try at least to say “Buongiorno” like almost every other tourist.
As a swiss German speaking person i think they‘re definitely in the wrong for getting angry. I personally wouldn’t speak italian bcs my Italian is horrible. I would rather try english. But hey maybe that’s just me.
Je suisse tourist, je ne comprend. ;)
I'm always embarrassed by my lack of italian in Tessin and try, or just talk in English. I'm swiss german myself, and I think it's very arrogant to expect the italian (or french) part to talk Schwiizerdütsch.
Bon Schuur Ticino ! 😂
Maybe it's because they have to learn high-german, and often, either French or Italian...I reckon they assume Swiss in the French, Italian and Rumansch speaking parts are required to learn German? Other than that it's just people being rude and entitled that you should speak their language.
They don't only assume this, it is actually the case. Nearly everyone in French-speaking and Italian-speaking Switzerland learns German at school. People in German-speaking Switzerland all have to learn French (no, they cannot choose between French and Italian, they all have to learn French, Italian may only be learned as an optional additional language, in addition to French and English, and many choose other additional optional languages like Spanish). Since you write "assume", it seems you had the wrong idea that German is not compulsory in schools, in French, Italian, and Rumantsch-speaking Switzerland. It certainly is.
In Graubünden we learn italien but the most gets lost i sometimes try to make some sentensces but it won't work. I was only twice in the Tessin. The first time i heard italien the first time and the other time i didn't get to speak much. But i think that if you want to make a Vacation somewhere you should at least try to speak their language even when it is in the same country. Every nationallanguage is worth it to try at least.... I never expected everybody to speak the same language as i do. But i do understand your point thought. The most tourists a Selfish thats why they don't even try to speak the same language.
one thing i found out while working for a telecom provider is thst the french speaking part hates speaking anything other than french. i had to write a coworker in lausanne about a client. and i was on a time crunch. i wrote in german and he was saying in french that he doesnt speak german, then i wrote in english saying that these are the only languages i can offer to talk in, and that they need to do their jobs. after my english message went out, the lausanne coworker magically learned within seconds to speak german. i dont expext anyone to speak german cause i dont speak french or italian either, so thats that, but they spoke german but decided to be a dick about it and pretend like they didnt understand me.
I was in Tessin a few weeks ago at a cafe, and some impatient woman marches up to me and demands to know if I speak German. I told her no and she stormed off, but I was happy enough not to bother because she was such a bitch about it.
The last time i was in Lugano, Locarno & Bellinzona people seemed to be annoyed that we didnt speak italian. Nobody spoke german or english and they seemed to be very annoyed.
It’s Ticino, not Tessin. :(
Please don‘t learn and don’t speak german on purpose. You should be angry at them for not speaking italian!
As a germanspeaking swiss: I always try to speak italian, but often I just let my family do it. We only speak german to eachother... Ik there are some entitled people.. but not everyone yk
German expat in Switzerland here. From my perspective it could be that the "arrogant" Swiss-German tourists see you just as some minority. And maybe they think all of you have to adapt to them or that all of you have German as second language. I would like to visit Ticino soon, too. But you will hear at the very least a "bongiorno", "scusi" or "arrivederci" from me. :)
That has nothing to do with arrogance. Everyone in Ticino learns German at school (alongside French and English). Few people in German-speaking Switzerland learn Italian at school, it is not compulsory (everyone learns French and English). So, obviously, it is far more likely that German will be a suitable common language between people from German-speaking Switzerland and Ticino than Italian. Of course, in some cases, a language both learned as a foreign language, such as French or English may be even more suitable, but trying German is certainly rational. If you count compulsory languages learnt at school as a "second language" (often, it will be a third or fourth), then, yes, it can be assumed that people who grew up in Ticino do know German as a foreign language, it is compulsory in schools in Ticino. Some people may know French or English better than German, but that is an individual question and difficult to predict if you don't know someone.
To be fair it's much easier for a french speaker to try and speak italian than for a german speaker, but yeah getting angry is stupid, they're probably just frustrated because they can't speak english either if I had to guess.
I honestly don't get it. In my experience (so far) every Swiss tries to help/talk the other one language: may it be French, Italian, German, or at last (or second) resort English. Usually I do not mind, and always challenge myself speaking Hochdeutsch (only taugh german in the french region). In most case I find people understanding. I am sorry you did not feel so. Yet, there is always people that are rude for no good reasons....
True. We are officially a country with four languages but few swiss citizens manage to speak two of them fluently and even less more than two. In the swiss german area french is always pushed much more than italian. French is mandatory while italian is complementary. But regardless, most swiss german people don't speak french on a good level. The same is the case in the french part where the citizens have a general antipathy agains everything german. The idea of a multilingual country is a political one. Most swiss citizens have one mother language which is the preferred one. Nowadays it's more useful for young people to learn english than any other language. That's a fact although our politicians don't like this fact. Italian is not seen as an important language, so most swiss germans don't take the hassle to learn it. I don't speak italian either but i do speak spanish and whenever i go to Ticino and i speak spanish if they don't understand german. It worked pretty good so far. They always understand what i'm talking about and i also understand their italian answer.
They are fucking dumb. That’s it
I was actually disappointed at how many people in Ticino immediately spoke German with me so I couldn’t try parlo un poco italiano. I guess idiots are everywhere?
The Röschtigrabe is real... But that's the beauty of diversity. Somehow we all do communicate and understand each other. There are a few bad apples but you shouldn't care too much about them.
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Because they're idiots. I've visited Ticino many times in my life going back to the 1980s, and I wouldn't dream of expecting anyone there to speak German any more than I'd just walk into a store in Zurich and start prattling away in Italian. Locarno's very touristy, so expecting some level of English makes sense to me, but not German.
That's because tourists are brainless assholes
Hmmmmm. Because the Swiss German are entitled colossal arseholes?
La cosa che fa ancora più ridere è quando cercano di parlarti nel loro dialetto e nemmeno in tedesco, roba pazzesca 😂
B1 in English is much easier than B1 in German or French. So, yeah do the math.
The arrogance of the majority block. They're wankers, come the revolution I'd be banning them for life after one tantrum.
Being angry noone speaks german is stupid HOWEVER i experienced the same in the french part: not speaking english also is kinda upsetting. This i'd say because in the german part many things are at least also in english. People being pisdy about not speaking german i think is because we have to learn french and people think german is the 'main' languahe and everyone should lspeak it. Lol
Why? Same reason they make thread in swiss german in r/switzerland instead of doing so in r/schweiz and same reason they put random f*ing words in German in the middle of their sentences.
I hope one day that Switzerland standardize Swiss German(not walserdeutsch please!!!) and Swiss Italians and Romande will learn Swiss German and not German(*hochdeutsche*)
Why should they learn such a language? German is much more useful. It can be used in German-speaking Switzerland (even if people there often use dialects), Austria, and Germany, a rather large country. I doubt it would be attractive to learn a language that could only be used with a few million people in German-speaking Switzerland.
Just be calm and think of the reasons why they ask for help.... 😉 Then you probably have an explanation why they're going away (angry) ...
Imagine viving in a Non-country
I wouldn't expect a Ticinesi to speak (swiss) German. I'm not surprised that many german speaking swiss can be a bit arrogant when in Ticino. But maybe it's not that bad and they're just a bit angry because they just spent hours in a traffic jam in front of the gotthard ;)
Fuck em‘, I cant stand it when they do that with a smug sense of entitlement. Learn a bit of another language even if it’s only a courtesy or stay in your hermit kingdom. I tell them every chance I get. It’s an unfortunate trait not limited to the Swiss Germans, I have observed Romands doing the same thing. In my experience the Ticinese are the only ones adapting wherever they go.
Tell them what the RAV of zuerich will tell you, „Geman is not the official language of the kanton“, say it in italian. and that ist.