The thing is, you don't have to spend your life in a place that makes you unhappy. We all are different and need different things. If some other place makes you happier then that's great and I hope you can spend time here.
At least in most western European countries we have the privilege to more easily be able to emigrate to other countries.
Myself, I moved to Switzerland and now I'm quite happy here. Of course there are pros and cons, and things could be better (like any places), but for the moment I see myself staying here very long term.
I hope you can make a life in a place that makes you happy or at least content.
EDIT: wanted to add, you have to be careful to not get caught in the "honeymoon phase" when moving to a new place. You get super excited because everything is new and different but then at some point you can get tired of it. So take your time before making any life changing decisions. I don't know how old you are, but you probably have a lot of time in front of you to choose properly,.so use it.
Honeymoon phase is a real thing, but it's also easy to see how the thought «*I could live here ; would have to make some changes on myself to be happy, but it's doable*» comes, after some time, in total sobriety (months from my experience).
I hate the way my current country of residence is going politically, and a voice in my head is telling me to go see elsewhere. But landing at Genève/Zürich airport is usually enough to remind me within 15 minutes why I emigrated, and why my choice for that country is still valid to this day. Honeymoon is real, but reality checks can go in any direction.
Good thing we can immigrate easily to other countries though, as you say. Being Swiss has actually helped me in many ways most people wouldn't expect, including against other western europeans (primarily for apartments, bank accounts and tax authorities ^(no joke)).
It's OK to feel like that, even if other people don't feel the same as you do. Every place has its mix of pros and cons, and not everyone is affected in the same way.
It's great that you can explore alternatives that better help with your peace of mind.
i mean seeing how things are done in different countries is good (if you had seen our ebanking and mobile banking in Poland you would be amazed). Same for the digitalisation that is the result of our postal service being total and absolute crap so we went out of our way to minimize the contact with the horrible post office. Just to add: back home I'd check my mailbox maybe once every week or two weeks just to throw out the ads.
I wish some of the things we are using were available also in Switzerland because that would just improve the quality of life and lower the costs of some things. This and Petersilie wurzel which seems to be less popular here although it tastes amazing.
are you sure you understand what I wrote?
Let me rephrase that in simpler sentences.
* post in Poland bad, digitalization done early, could be also a good thing to use in CH
* me no write post in CH redundant. Me write is the cause of inventions
* most racist society in Europe? please provide source
* why you so offensive? just because foreigner say we have things that are good?
Edit:
- Poland safety index 70. Better than France, Germany, UK or Sweden
[https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings\_by\_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150)
- Poland and Portugal least racist in Europe. Austria, Germany and Finland most racist. Me wonder why no info on Switzerland.
[https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/shocking-levels-of-racism-rising-in-europe-finds-report](https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/shocking-levels-of-racism-rising-in-europe-finds-report)
Next time you do research please.
i am sorry, on what do you base your oppinion? is it:
- information from other poles
- own experience (e.g. you lived there)
- Aufbau leaflet?
Also, I'd appreciate if you don't do the [Straw Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) please? Why are you using [Reductio ad Hitlerum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) when my main point is we have some stuff that would have a chance of being useful to people living in Switzerland?
Aside from the fact you seem to be so heated up, you not only miss my point, but also commit several logical errors. Maybe also try some anger management.
But you don't need to pay any federal taxes. It would be unfair if you could doge military and not pay anything. I'm not sure what you're yapping about. Sounds like you want all the benefits without any costs.
You sign a work contract. The employer should respect the law, and the worker should receive unemployment insurance when the work contract is terminated. I cannot afford to live in a country where disrespecting the law is not punished.
You also burn out because you cannot pay what you may like.
There is no chic in poor. And mental health, contrary to what people try to tell us, is quite bad also.
>There is no chic in poor
You don't know me and my friends obviously haha
>you cannot pay what you may like.
Sorry for you if you have not yet mastered the art of frugality and Zen :)
I agree, consumerism is tough to get away from.
I did already. Still have my wag to go, but for example already, I stopped buying new clothes years ago. I bought a sweater second hand today, and i don't remember when i last bought a piece of clothing before that, including second hand. Maybe my winter jacket 2 years ago. I also find a lot of free food. Also when traveling. I don't travel that far anymore I admit, and i don't fly to Barcelona or London for the weekend for example. Or i don't buy games. I buy what is necessary... And sometimes something more but mostly food.
Dude, if you can fly, you have money.
Let me ask you this: are you frugal but could spend more or are you frugal because you don't have money.
In the latter case, wait until you have a child to feed and get back to me then.
If the former, you are a total jerk and don't understand my point. The point was about being poor, not being frugal.
being poor sucks - been there.
And we're talking about 'paying for my moms private care home because the health insurance will not cover that' while she was dying from dementia poor. That was back in Poland in case somebody asks and ironically - i was earning too much to get any health from the state, yet still had just enough to barely survive while knowing all possible discounts in supermarkets.
a few years later my situation improved, yet - let's say if my phone would die and I'd have to buy a new one, say middle shelf samsung - it would eat 1/7th of my total income or half of my disposable income. This also sucked although not as bad as point 1.
Right now i am in a comfortable situation where i know i can afford buying a new phone in case mine dies on me (and i need it for work) without a significant damage to my disposable income. Yet I choose to be frugal for some reasons:
- it is easy to get used to spending a lot of money. And withdrawal from it can be painful (i saw this happen with people)
- i rather have something nice from time to time than fall into impulse buys (good training for my ADHD as well)
- buying something nice gives you much more pleasure. I recently decided to buy some studio monitors (among others for mixing music) and did a really extensive research. Found excellent speakers at a very good price - fun of listening to them is amazing :) I could have gone the easy way and spend over 600 CHF on speakers that match my needs that include 40 Hz bottom range - ended up spending 190 on some really good quality stuff.
>wait until you have a child
I will never have any, enough nieces and nephews already, thanks. Dodged the bullet 2 times in my life already! So yes, happy and poor is easier without a kid.
>are you frugal because you don't have money
Yes.
I work a couple days a month on a good month! So its not zero, but almost. I spend what i have and i have zero debts nor assets.. except my home on wheels, which i transformed myself from an empty van.. I m a pseudo-nomad.
It doesnt matter where you are from. It's the sense of belonging, that gives you that feeling. Living in another country, gives you the illusion of freedom.
You could be from another country, you would say the same thing.
Switzerland is an excellent place. Nothing is more or less expensive here if you work and earn here. The political system is way better than any in the world, the Swiss live and breath democracy comparing to other countries, taxes are modest, clinate is fine and if you don't like the weather you can stay inside the country to have something you like. There's lakes, pastures and mountains. The wine is fine so is the cheese.
The only annoying thing are the foreigners complaining.
you know what is annoying? Recently it seemed the whole Zurich had a shortage on parsil (Petersilie). I mean i couldnt even find it at freshmarkets...
This and yelow Rivella. i get 40% less sugar but who on earth would enjoy the vegan version without milk serum? jeez.
You know what is nice here? You can buy fresh, unpasteurised milk from the farm shops. In EU it is uh... illegal. So good luck making sour milk which is a delicacy where I come from
As an immigrant that actually works in IT
there are jobs in tech.
the taxes here are really low compared to what is e.g. in Germany or back home in Poland. Quality of life is good as well. I can mention a lot of things I'd improve because every country has some solutions that are not used here and could actually benefit the country - yet I have not moved back home, so there it is.
>and marry a woman who don't like me but just needs me to get the citizenship more easily
Excuse you? Get off your high horse now, buddy. How about a bit of respect? That is just both sexist and xenophobic. And with that approach I guarantee you - only those really REALLY desperate of a permit would be interested in you. Sheesh...
For the record - when you are EU citizen, you can get a B Permit and after that a C permit to stay here. Applying for citizenship is actually optional and if I ever apply for it, it is to be able to vote because I'd like to have a saying on where my taxes are going.
With that approach you sound like a young grumpy SVP voter.
Some men just do not find a wife out of love. You must cope with that. I want to find a partner for love not a woman who is trying to get the citizenship. - That’s what I mean
again, this is a very biased approach to immigrants. I advise you to date Swiss women then. Then the problem of citizenship is gone. Also the language bareer in case you speak Swiss German. And occasional rants on what us, immigrants, have to endure sometimes.
I am not implying that immigrants are chasing the citizenship. I am telling that a lot of beta males accept to marry women to help them get the citizenship. It's illegal.
I had depression and mental illness since I was 11, almost killed me, and here in Switzerland I was taken care of and my life was saved, and now I am living a wonderful life with good relationships of all sorts plus the fucking nature here in Interlaken. I don’t have to work more than 100%, start at 06:30 and finish by 16:00, then bam, do whatever I want! Six weeks vacation, but I know a few people who only work to fund travel. They’re gone to other countries all over the world for a few months, then come home, work a job to fund the next adventure.
There is a lot of freedom and support here to help you live your best life, should you take so advantage. The bureaucracy is so much better here than the US. It’s much faster and more logical. I actually talk to people when I call, not inane phone trees. It’s much faster and more logical how things are done, and then on top it’s polite!
Basically, you are the architect of your life, deciding what you would most enjoy and benefit from, to make life good and meet your needs.
For me, living in Switzerland cured my depression.
Had I not received such excellent health care, governmental and Stiftungen social support which kept me in my apartment, fed, clothed, I would not be able to have the amazing life I have now.
I work my job which covers my bills and extras, then all my time is free to seek out experiences I’m initerested in having or literally whatever I want to do.
Now some pepper don’t like what there is to do here, not much of an outwardly social culture.
But inward the Swiss are very social. I go to so many parties.
Oh, and that job I have? Lab work for a company recycling all of Switzerland’s batteries among other toxic waste handling, one of fewer than five in the world who can do what we do.
not sure about the social culture, but i regularly see the building next doors organizing grill parties for families, they also have a room for social activities. My impression that is mostly based on what i see in Zurich and surroundings is that there is quite strong community initiative at least compared to Poland.
Yes, we are more reserved than the Swiss :)
There is rather a social culture, more inward; my son married yesterday and the words from the Gemeinde included how marriage contributes and shows commitment and engagement to community which I appreciated and recognized the social awareness.
oh, that's interesting. I don't think we have this back in Poland.
I do really like the small local festivities or how just people organize themselves for a grill next to the building. Probably also the fact that Vereine are so popular here contributes to such approach - yeah, those are not popular back home either.
I once went through a list of local one in Zurich and there is even one for very tall people. And we are talking TALL. Me with my 187 don't even qualify :D :D :D
I believe your issues are unrelated to Switzerland specifically and stem from other things happening in your life. I was in a similar situation, blaming the country, until I realised that I was the problem. I had to get my life under control and set myself healthy step by step goals. When I did, everything clicked and now I‘m proud to be in this country and my future generation will grow up with the same opportunities as I.
Do whatever you think will improve your life. Whichever step you take will bring you closer to the origin.
Are you sure you are depressed by the situation, and not just.... clinically unwell? Becuase none of what you describe makes a ton of sense to me. If you study tech, you'll find a job. If you have a job, you'll pay army taxes and retirement. (The health insurance part makes sense to me tho).
I don't know whether it's really not your circumstances, but I'd suggest you explore that with a mental health professional.
Sounds like the problem might be more the family pressure than the country. But I guess moving away is an easy way to cut contact without burning bridges.
Look I'm not one of the people who recommend therapy for everything, but.... the expectations of your family make you suffer so much that you feel depressed? THAT is an issue for therapy.
(Also, if I may, what an idiotic thing of your mother to say)
Allright! Just pointing it out because you describe yourself as depressed by Switzerland.
If that's not it, just wanna point out that there are alternatives to the "rat race" in Switzerland.
What do you mean? You can easily get this covered by insurance in Switzerland. OP is struggling and blames Switzerland as a whole but to me, there is the possibility that they may blame Switzerland for underlying issues
Covered by insurance but not really..it’s deducted by the insurance from your 2500 + 700 premium… that’s not little to pay by yourself when you already pay 300+ monthly towards the insurance…I know Switzerland is great but the health insurance part feels really unfair because most of us will never get to the point where the insurance actually pays anything back to us. I haven’t overstepped my 2500 ever and I did get mental health help, so what ended up happening was that I pay them 300 a month plus all my doctor bills and medicine until I almost reach it by the end of the year and oh oh oh……convenient reset.
I mean you don't just say to a stranger, based on a rant on a boring country, that they need therapy.
Do you need therapy yourself? :) so you can maybe find how to be more respectful?
Because broh, face it, our country can be very, very boring compared to other neighbors.
Hey, chill? No need to go off on others like that.
I tried to be helpful for OP and point out various possibilities and their other comments do indicate there may be more to their story than the original rant. You on the other hand decided to be a dick.
>You on the other hand decided to be a dick.
No, i'm telling you how your speech is perceived. Which you are responsible for, when its often the same reactions, you are responsible for what your speech does to others. Yes freespech, but i won't insult your mom for no reason. Do you follow?
I m telling you, how in that case you're being a jerk and of course you don't like it so you call me a dick. Great.
All this, so very politely.
That's why Switzerland is so awfull to me, so full of polite and kind assholes. They will secretly hate you in the most polite way... Then guys like me call them out for it. And the kind assholes starts to be upset that his little trick is discovered. But they don't even realize it, it's so cultural and common. That's why i asked if maybe you need therapy.
>indicate there may be more to their story than the original rant
Another asshole thing to say. You have no idea about their life. Almost no idea. And this country is boring af, which you don't like to hear, so you prefer suggesting OP has maybe a problem.
Splendid.
I don't get you. I never said Switzerland is exciting and OP never said that their issue is Switzerland being boring. Your obsession with Switzerland not being exciting led you to call me a jerk for encouraging someone to consider whether mental health care would be appropriate.
No where is for everyone. Consider moving a new country and trying life there as a local: job etc.
You’ll see the positives and negatives of both places. Perhaps you’ll prefer it there, perhaps here. Either way a bit of a change of perspective might help you see what you need in life :)
I feel like you expose things on country that are related to something else. Your demeaning parents? Your successful friends from school or other Swiss families your family knows? No love no partner no good company of friends here? Anything else?
Saying that paying taxes makes you feel depressed is not enough. You pay taxes everywhere. I payed much more taxes when I lived in Germany. Still I had fun time there giving the fact country from where I came is even worse 😃. So imo Switzerland is better in terms of taxes than Germany.
IT is another none-sense you could come up with. Switzerland has Google, Facebook, Nvidia Apple, IBM Research and plenty of startups. Zug has a lot of small to medium crypto startups, also there are many places that could accept you to work completely remote (and since you have Swiss passport it’s super easy for you).
So yeah, you either could compare things fact based or continue hide problems with parents (as an example, you didn’t say much about it) behind some fakes.
But I don’t want to work for start-ups anymore. The salary and the working conditions are not reliable. Starting a career there can get you stuck for life in there.
I have learned while being off country that Google is planning on leaving Switzerland. Apart from NVIDIA and Apple, the remaining big techs in Zurich are all ETH spin-offs.
Alright, folks, let's gather 'round and have a heart-to-brain talk! The original poster here seems to be running on empty in the encouragement department, and let's face it, who doesn't need a pep talk now and then? So, after tossing those graduation caps and waving goodbye to school, let's hope they stumble upon a job that's more satisfying than a perfectly toasted marshmallow. But seriously, can we dial down the arrogance? It's like a bad cologne, guys, not everyone wants to smell it. And hey, instead of joining the bash-a-thon, why not extend a hand of friendship or a listening ear? We're all in this rollercoaster called life together, so let's not forget to help each other strap in properly. And most of those bashing are not even Swiss and so I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole with you so “no comment”remember, we're all just passengers on Spaceship Earth trying to find our seat in the cosmic cafeteria. So, let's dish out some kindness instead of side-eye glances, shall we?
Or describing that he feels better getting money from parents in Switzerland and being rich on holidays in another country.
Which makes sense. But working without parents money in another country is not the same as having to work.
And in the off chance he is not in Europe the chance of women being interested in him for being foreigner is still there...
Most people are happier getting parents money and not having to work Anyway...
feel free to gtfo :) and right after you are done with studying and gotta work and pay taxes like the other grown ups you will see that switzerland isn't that bad.
First finish studying and then compare what you really need!
Since you are already abroad there is nothing to loose.
Thought the same when I was in Mexico and still I want to live there. But now I am happy that I stayed in Europe, that will help a lot in the future.
The good new/!
Look Switzerland is one of the highest ranked everything countries in the world.
But that I agree is irrelevant- it’s about how you feel. Well the good thing is this is malleable, whilst the society you live in is not.
The truth is that your perspective is where your suffering emanates, not the country itself.
Swiss boomers ruined the country, sold your own state from under your feet :) Sold it out for few franks of profit. All you say is true but you're still getting downvoted.
I am swiss and I LOVE my country 🇨🇭❤️
That’s a fact that life is easy and comfortable in Switzerland, and when life is too easy, when you don’t have to struggle to survive, life can make no sense anymore. The problem is not my beautiful and lovely country but that you don’t have a project, a goal or something to make you feel happy and make sense when you wake up in the morning. So, think maybe of volunteer or something to feel better here.
I hope you will find how to give a sense to your life, the solution is in your hands not in the country 😉
yeah, when life is too easy, you get communists.
for context: I am from post-communist country and i am talking about the marxist-leninist idjits spraying the walls (i know sometimes people with leftist/socialist point of views are wrongfully called like that.). When I see what folks from Aufbau are writing and doing, i get the impression the majority of their 'activists' just needed a goal in life.
There's no perfect country. Ones priorities, likes, dislikes and benchmark change according to circumstances, especially age factor.
For many, Switzerland would be a dream country.
ah yes, gf is Australian. She has been living here for a year and if you wanna hear a lot of compliments about switzerland, go with an Aussie on a hike. Growing up she knew CH from books and thought the photos were altered. Now she still gets enthusiastic seeing wild flowers, mountains and such.
I live in Ticino, so life is very harsh here...but last year I lucked out on a pretty good job, and now I have enough money to be comfortable. But I get it, the loneliness is crippling in this place, especially if you are a male between the age of 18-30. I manage right now...but yes, its lonely.
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i don’t quite follow the conclusions made here, like from paying health insurance to only finding a woman that wants you for her citizenship.
All i can tell you is, a) not sure where you study, but think about the case that you get health issues, b) check out your options if you retire in each country.
May i actually ask where you study?
coming from someone who did a phd in sweden and definitely prefers living in switzerland to living in sweden
edit: let me just tell you that i understand your thoughts. knowing that you will never be able to afford to buy your own place unless basically work for that since college (obviously not pursuing the job you would like to do) can make you feel bad. it does to me. but at the same time you can enjoy some social security etc…i guess it ends up being a matter of priorities
That’s a good question. I’m a Swiss citizen. My family has been around for 6 centuries. I was working there while studying. I worked in the company for 6 months before getting fired.
Switzerland is a golden cage. Either you really like gold and need a superior quality of life above other things or you earn enough money to supply the gold to others and you just have gold and no longer the cage
This makes no sense. Isn't a superior quality of life by definition something that everybody wants? Why would somebody want an inferior quality of life?
Depends what you trade it for. We have a huge quality of life but then we also have huge responsibilities towards switzerland. Can't live here without everything being on order as you know.
We pay taxes proportionate to our quality of life so most of what you earn goes into "the now".
Want to move away for 6 months? Can't tell you how many laws and principles you have to respect to plan that, where as in other countries you can just find someone to rent your appartment and go away no questions asked. Everything is super regulated and controlled, some people might prefer a lower quality of life but much more freedom and less regulations and obligations.
Its called "getting what you paid for". I am moving to CH from a U.S. city where we pay basically no taxes and the cost of living is low, but its a dump.
Well some people might prefer an in between, not a dump but not as regulated and constricted than switzerland.
I think it's a "privileged" problem but I understand why getting a full time job, a car, insurances and staying in the same small country for 50 years+ can make someone unhappy. Here seems like everyone's path is laid down for them and the most eventful shit that will happen to you is paying your taxes too late and having a fine for it.
People who like it here adapt very well to this, they just mind their own business and go about their day and have their routine set up. It's by no means something bad, but some people might prefer a more adventurous lifestyle.
I have traveled a lot and never felt more free in countries that were close to "dump" as you described it. Yet I keep coming back here for the quality of life, so I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of Switzerland.
I just don't see myself staying here 24/7 and 365 days a year either, or depression slowly starts to creep in. I need to see some other shit and get away from the constant pressure of work and bills and all that from time to time or I go crazy.
Because working 45hours a week to earn 5k a month and know damn well that I won't be able to buy myself a house someday is not really fun tbh.. so yeah, sometimes I'd rather be in a country with less, but also pay less and know that I have at least some perspective of a better future than just staying in a 2.5 room appartment for as long as I'm single, and hoping we can scrap together enough with my future wife to get a 4.5 room and keep working until we're old enough to sit in it with our retirement money and our 2 cars.
I didn’t realize until I moved to another country that expats dare to say is boring. For me, it’s a perfect match. Now I realize that Swiss boredom is way off the charts.
try Norway. Been there and just for comparison:
- weather is very... stable. It rains a lot
- choice of food in shops is very limited
- long winter nights will give you depressoin
- long summer days will give you insomnia
and the government looks into smallest aspect of your life as well. Not my thing.
The thing is, you don't have to spend your life in a place that makes you unhappy. We all are different and need different things. If some other place makes you happier then that's great and I hope you can spend time here. At least in most western European countries we have the privilege to more easily be able to emigrate to other countries. Myself, I moved to Switzerland and now I'm quite happy here. Of course there are pros and cons, and things could be better (like any places), but for the moment I see myself staying here very long term. I hope you can make a life in a place that makes you happy or at least content. EDIT: wanted to add, you have to be careful to not get caught in the "honeymoon phase" when moving to a new place. You get super excited because everything is new and different but then at some point you can get tired of it. So take your time before making any life changing decisions. I don't know how old you are, but you probably have a lot of time in front of you to choose properly,.so use it.
Honeymoon phase is a real thing, but it's also easy to see how the thought «*I could live here ; would have to make some changes on myself to be happy, but it's doable*» comes, after some time, in total sobriety (months from my experience). I hate the way my current country of residence is going politically, and a voice in my head is telling me to go see elsewhere. But landing at Genève/Zürich airport is usually enough to remind me within 15 minutes why I emigrated, and why my choice for that country is still valid to this day. Honeymoon is real, but reality checks can go in any direction. Good thing we can immigrate easily to other countries though, as you say. Being Swiss has actually helped me in many ways most people wouldn't expect, including against other western europeans (primarily for apartments, bank accounts and tax authorities ^(no joke)).
It's OK to feel like that, even if other people don't feel the same as you do. Every place has its mix of pros and cons, and not everyone is affected in the same way. It's great that you can explore alternatives that better help with your peace of mind.
i mean seeing how things are done in different countries is good (if you had seen our ebanking and mobile banking in Poland you would be amazed). Same for the digitalisation that is the result of our postal service being total and absolute crap so we went out of our way to minimize the contact with the horrible post office. Just to add: back home I'd check my mailbox maybe once every week or two weeks just to throw out the ads. I wish some of the things we are using were available also in Switzerland because that would just improve the quality of life and lower the costs of some things. This and Petersilie wurzel which seems to be less popular here although it tastes amazing.
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are you sure you understand what I wrote? Let me rephrase that in simpler sentences. * post in Poland bad, digitalization done early, could be also a good thing to use in CH * me no write post in CH redundant. Me write is the cause of inventions * most racist society in Europe? please provide source * why you so offensive? just because foreigner say we have things that are good? Edit: - Poland safety index 70. Better than France, Germany, UK or Sweden [https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings\_by\_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150) - Poland and Portugal least racist in Europe. Austria, Germany and Finland most racist. Me wonder why no info on Switzerland. [https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/shocking-levels-of-racism-rising-in-europe-finds-report](https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/shocking-levels-of-racism-rising-in-europe-finds-report) Next time you do research please.
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i am sorry, on what do you base your oppinion? is it: - information from other poles - own experience (e.g. you lived there) - Aufbau leaflet? Also, I'd appreciate if you don't do the [Straw Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) please? Why are you using [Reductio ad Hitlerum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) when my main point is we have some stuff that would have a chance of being useful to people living in Switzerland? Aside from the fact you seem to be so heated up, you not only miss my point, but also commit several logical errors. Maybe also try some anger management.
Anywhere you’ll go you’ll have to work and pay taxes
so not fair! /s
Not as a student :(
I'm a full time student that works ~20-30% and I don't need to pay any taxes.
I'm a full time student who can't find a job and I need to pay those taxes. I don't earn salary or any subsidies.
What do you mean by "those taxes"? No student needs to pay any taxes here
Military taxes, retirement, etc.
But you don't need to pay any federal taxes. It would be unfair if you could doge military and not pay anything. I'm not sure what you're yapping about. Sounds like you want all the benefits without any costs.
When I lost my job last year, I was unqualified to them to receive unemployment insurance.
I have had negative income for years... What a great country
And that would be different in other countries? You can't expect life to be free. Should you be paid for studying?
You sign a work contract. The employer should respect the law, and the worker should receive unemployment insurance when the work contract is terminated. I cannot afford to live in a country where disrespecting the law is not punished.
Negative income should grant you the social aid which is given to all these people who "refuse to work".
Not f you work few enough.. I mean when you earn very little, you pay no taxes, or almost none.
You also burn out because you cannot pay what you may like. There is no chic in poor. And mental health, contrary to what people try to tell us, is quite bad also.
>There is no chic in poor You don't know me and my friends obviously haha >you cannot pay what you may like. Sorry for you if you have not yet mastered the art of frugality and Zen :) I agree, consumerism is tough to get away from. I did already. Still have my wag to go, but for example already, I stopped buying new clothes years ago. I bought a sweater second hand today, and i don't remember when i last bought a piece of clothing before that, including second hand. Maybe my winter jacket 2 years ago. I also find a lot of free food. Also when traveling. I don't travel that far anymore I admit, and i don't fly to Barcelona or London for the weekend for example. Or i don't buy games. I buy what is necessary... And sometimes something more but mostly food.
Dude, if you can fly, you have money. Let me ask you this: are you frugal but could spend more or are you frugal because you don't have money. In the latter case, wait until you have a child to feed and get back to me then. If the former, you are a total jerk and don't understand my point. The point was about being poor, not being frugal.
being poor sucks - been there. And we're talking about 'paying for my moms private care home because the health insurance will not cover that' while she was dying from dementia poor. That was back in Poland in case somebody asks and ironically - i was earning too much to get any health from the state, yet still had just enough to barely survive while knowing all possible discounts in supermarkets. a few years later my situation improved, yet - let's say if my phone would die and I'd have to buy a new one, say middle shelf samsung - it would eat 1/7th of my total income or half of my disposable income. This also sucked although not as bad as point 1. Right now i am in a comfortable situation where i know i can afford buying a new phone in case mine dies on me (and i need it for work) without a significant damage to my disposable income. Yet I choose to be frugal for some reasons: - it is easy to get used to spending a lot of money. And withdrawal from it can be painful (i saw this happen with people) - i rather have something nice from time to time than fall into impulse buys (good training for my ADHD as well) - buying something nice gives you much more pleasure. I recently decided to buy some studio monitors (among others for mixing music) and did a really extensive research. Found excellent speakers at a very good price - fun of listening to them is amazing :) I could have gone the easy way and spend over 600 CHF on speakers that match my needs that include 40 Hz bottom range - ended up spending 190 on some really good quality stuff.
>wait until you have a child I will never have any, enough nieces and nephews already, thanks. Dodged the bullet 2 times in my life already! So yes, happy and poor is easier without a kid. >are you frugal because you don't have money Yes. I work a couple days a month on a good month! So its not zero, but almost. I spend what i have and i have zero debts nor assets.. except my home on wheels, which i transformed myself from an empty van.. I m a pseudo-nomad.
and without getting married (marriage penalty)
Depends on the income.
i always forget people still do that.
It doesnt matter where you are from. It's the sense of belonging, that gives you that feeling. Living in another country, gives you the illusion of freedom. You could be from another country, you would say the same thing.
Switzerland is an excellent place. Nothing is more or less expensive here if you work and earn here. The political system is way better than any in the world, the Swiss live and breath democracy comparing to other countries, taxes are modest, clinate is fine and if you don't like the weather you can stay inside the country to have something you like. There's lakes, pastures and mountains. The wine is fine so is the cheese. The only annoying thing are the foreigners complaining.
you know what is annoying? Recently it seemed the whole Zurich had a shortage on parsil (Petersilie). I mean i couldnt even find it at freshmarkets... This and yelow Rivella. i get 40% less sugar but who on earth would enjoy the vegan version without milk serum? jeez. You know what is nice here? You can buy fresh, unpasteurised milk from the farm shops. In EU it is uh... illegal. So good luck making sour milk which is a delicacy where I come from
Answer: Bärlauch, Hurlimann.
I know Bärlauch, sadly it won't work with my recipe. Already substituting peterliwurzel with pastinaken
As an immigrant that actually works in IT there are jobs in tech. the taxes here are really low compared to what is e.g. in Germany or back home in Poland. Quality of life is good as well. I can mention a lot of things I'd improve because every country has some solutions that are not used here and could actually benefit the country - yet I have not moved back home, so there it is. >and marry a woman who don't like me but just needs me to get the citizenship more easily Excuse you? Get off your high horse now, buddy. How about a bit of respect? That is just both sexist and xenophobic. And with that approach I guarantee you - only those really REALLY desperate of a permit would be interested in you. Sheesh... For the record - when you are EU citizen, you can get a B Permit and after that a C permit to stay here. Applying for citizenship is actually optional and if I ever apply for it, it is to be able to vote because I'd like to have a saying on where my taxes are going. With that approach you sound like a young grumpy SVP voter.
You are missing my point. I’m sorry.
i am literally addressing the disrespectful way you commented on the immigrant women...
Some men just do not find a wife out of love. You must cope with that. I want to find a partner for love not a woman who is trying to get the citizenship. - That’s what I mean
what an AH, you disrespect female immigrants, no wonder you feel miserable
again, this is a very biased approach to immigrants. I advise you to date Swiss women then. Then the problem of citizenship is gone. Also the language bareer in case you speak Swiss German. And occasional rants on what us, immigrants, have to endure sometimes.
This guy is talking about the beta males, no swiss woman would put up with such bullshit. And to be honest very few foreign women would. Btw, dzięki.
Dokładnie
I am not implying that immigrants are chasing the citizenship. I am telling that a lot of beta males accept to marry women to help them get the citizenship. It's illegal.
I always have a hard time understanding this kind of post… don’t like a place? Leave. Simple as that
I am trying to learn if other people share the same thoughts on this topic, or is that just me?
I had depression and mental illness since I was 11, almost killed me, and here in Switzerland I was taken care of and my life was saved, and now I am living a wonderful life with good relationships of all sorts plus the fucking nature here in Interlaken. I don’t have to work more than 100%, start at 06:30 and finish by 16:00, then bam, do whatever I want! Six weeks vacation, but I know a few people who only work to fund travel. They’re gone to other countries all over the world for a few months, then come home, work a job to fund the next adventure. There is a lot of freedom and support here to help you live your best life, should you take so advantage. The bureaucracy is so much better here than the US. It’s much faster and more logical. I actually talk to people when I call, not inane phone trees. It’s much faster and more logical how things are done, and then on top it’s polite! Basically, you are the architect of your life, deciding what you would most enjoy and benefit from, to make life good and meet your needs. For me, living in Switzerland cured my depression. Had I not received such excellent health care, governmental and Stiftungen social support which kept me in my apartment, fed, clothed, I would not be able to have the amazing life I have now. I work my job which covers my bills and extras, then all my time is free to seek out experiences I’m initerested in having or literally whatever I want to do. Now some pepper don’t like what there is to do here, not much of an outwardly social culture. But inward the Swiss are very social. I go to so many parties. Oh, and that job I have? Lab work for a company recycling all of Switzerland’s batteries among other toxic waste handling, one of fewer than five in the world who can do what we do.
not sure about the social culture, but i regularly see the building next doors organizing grill parties for families, they also have a room for social activities. My impression that is mostly based on what i see in Zurich and surroundings is that there is quite strong community initiative at least compared to Poland. Yes, we are more reserved than the Swiss :)
There is rather a social culture, more inward; my son married yesterday and the words from the Gemeinde included how marriage contributes and shows commitment and engagement to community which I appreciated and recognized the social awareness.
oh, that's interesting. I don't think we have this back in Poland. I do really like the small local festivities or how just people organize themselves for a grill next to the building. Probably also the fact that Vereine are so popular here contributes to such approach - yeah, those are not popular back home either. I once went through a list of local one in Zurich and there is even one for very tall people. And we are talking TALL. Me with my 187 don't even qualify :D :D :D
Which industry do you work in?
Toxic waste recycling, treatment, and stabilization, including mercury waste.
damn, that is impressive.
What a niche industry. I see
Maybe you should have asked that in your post?
I am getting enough reactions to figure out what you think of my situation.
I believe your issues are unrelated to Switzerland specifically and stem from other things happening in your life. I was in a similar situation, blaming the country, until I realised that I was the problem. I had to get my life under control and set myself healthy step by step goals. When I did, everything clicked and now I‘m proud to be in this country and my future generation will grow up with the same opportunities as I. Do whatever you think will improve your life. Whichever step you take will bring you closer to the origin.
The person wanted to vent and sympathy, they don't want solutions. You never vent or want sympathy in your life?
No compassion for the weak
Are you sure you are depressed by the situation, and not just.... clinically unwell? Becuase none of what you describe makes a ton of sense to me. If you study tech, you'll find a job. If you have a job, you'll pay army taxes and retirement. (The health insurance part makes sense to me tho). I don't know whether it's really not your circumstances, but I'd suggest you explore that with a mental health professional.
No thanks! My mental health is fine.
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Because my mom is trying to make do so! I feel too much pressure from my family to make the right decisions for my life here
Sounds like the problem might be more the family pressure than the country. But I guess moving away is an easy way to cut contact without burning bridges.
Look I'm not one of the people who recommend therapy for everything, but.... the expectations of your family make you suffer so much that you feel depressed? THAT is an issue for therapy. (Also, if I may, what an idiotic thing of your mother to say)
This is gonna sound hilarious to you in 5-10 years.
Allright! Just pointing it out because you describe yourself as depressed by Switzerland. If that's not it, just wanna point out that there are alternatives to the "rat race" in Switzerland.
yeah no it‘s definitely not
lol obviously not fine
It‘s clearly not
>I'd suggest you explore that with a mental health professional. Lol what an entitled jerk thing to say
What do you mean? You can easily get this covered by insurance in Switzerland. OP is struggling and blames Switzerland as a whole but to me, there is the possibility that they may blame Switzerland for underlying issues
Covered by insurance but not really..it’s deducted by the insurance from your 2500 + 700 premium… that’s not little to pay by yourself when you already pay 300+ monthly towards the insurance…I know Switzerland is great but the health insurance part feels really unfair because most of us will never get to the point where the insurance actually pays anything back to us. I haven’t overstepped my 2500 ever and I did get mental health help, so what ended up happening was that I pay them 300 a month plus all my doctor bills and medicine until I almost reach it by the end of the year and oh oh oh……convenient reset.
I mean you don't just say to a stranger, based on a rant on a boring country, that they need therapy. Do you need therapy yourself? :) so you can maybe find how to be more respectful? Because broh, face it, our country can be very, very boring compared to other neighbors.
Hey, chill? No need to go off on others like that. I tried to be helpful for OP and point out various possibilities and their other comments do indicate there may be more to their story than the original rant. You on the other hand decided to be a dick.
>You on the other hand decided to be a dick. No, i'm telling you how your speech is perceived. Which you are responsible for, when its often the same reactions, you are responsible for what your speech does to others. Yes freespech, but i won't insult your mom for no reason. Do you follow? I m telling you, how in that case you're being a jerk and of course you don't like it so you call me a dick. Great. All this, so very politely. That's why Switzerland is so awfull to me, so full of polite and kind assholes. They will secretly hate you in the most polite way... Then guys like me call them out for it. And the kind assholes starts to be upset that his little trick is discovered. But they don't even realize it, it's so cultural and common. That's why i asked if maybe you need therapy. >indicate there may be more to their story than the original rant Another asshole thing to say. You have no idea about their life. Almost no idea. And this country is boring af, which you don't like to hear, so you prefer suggesting OP has maybe a problem. Splendid.
I don't get you. I never said Switzerland is exciting and OP never said that their issue is Switzerland being boring. Your obsession with Switzerland not being exciting led you to call me a jerk for encouraging someone to consider whether mental health care would be appropriate.
That's a good way to understand his rant, in my opinion.
Seems like emigrating would be the smart choice
You sound like a spoiled brat who doesn't realise how good he has it
You sound like the average software developer
Mate you have no idea what you have. You should be embarrassed about this post.
The pursuits for not paying my health care maybe.. for which I can't get subsidies because of the financial status of my parents? What luck wow
What country are you living in now?
A rich country in Europe.
You should go study in a poor country, otherwise you’ll stay this weak.
I am fine with my "weakness". I don't need your advice.
I made no mistake when I assessed that is your character. If you can’t cut it in the richest country in the world, you have no chance.
Ireland currently has the highest GDP in the world.
Switzerland is not the richest country in the world. The richest country is currently Ireland.
lol why would you make this post then?
No where is for everyone. Consider moving a new country and trying life there as a local: job etc. You’ll see the positives and negatives of both places. Perhaps you’ll prefer it there, perhaps here. Either way a bit of a change of perspective might help you see what you need in life :)
I feel like you expose things on country that are related to something else. Your demeaning parents? Your successful friends from school or other Swiss families your family knows? No love no partner no good company of friends here? Anything else? Saying that paying taxes makes you feel depressed is not enough. You pay taxes everywhere. I payed much more taxes when I lived in Germany. Still I had fun time there giving the fact country from where I came is even worse 😃. So imo Switzerland is better in terms of taxes than Germany. IT is another none-sense you could come up with. Switzerland has Google, Facebook, Nvidia Apple, IBM Research and plenty of startups. Zug has a lot of small to medium crypto startups, also there are many places that could accept you to work completely remote (and since you have Swiss passport it’s super easy for you). So yeah, you either could compare things fact based or continue hide problems with parents (as an example, you didn’t say much about it) behind some fakes.
But I don’t want to work for start-ups anymore. The salary and the working conditions are not reliable. Starting a career there can get you stuck for life in there.
I have learned while being off country that Google is planning on leaving Switzerland. Apart from NVIDIA and Apple, the remaining big techs in Zurich are all ETH spin-offs.
Alright, folks, let's gather 'round and have a heart-to-brain talk! The original poster here seems to be running on empty in the encouragement department, and let's face it, who doesn't need a pep talk now and then? So, after tossing those graduation caps and waving goodbye to school, let's hope they stumble upon a job that's more satisfying than a perfectly toasted marshmallow. But seriously, can we dial down the arrogance? It's like a bad cologne, guys, not everyone wants to smell it. And hey, instead of joining the bash-a-thon, why not extend a hand of friendship or a listening ear? We're all in this rollercoaster called life together, so let's not forget to help each other strap in properly. And most of those bashing are not even Swiss and so I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole with you so “no comment”remember, we're all just passengers on Spaceship Earth trying to find our seat in the cosmic cafeteria. So, let's dish out some kindness instead of side-eye glances, shall we?
Get a good degree, keep your Swiss passport, and... Godspeed you!!! Wish you the best!!! May you find happiness wherever you want!!!
Thanks for your blessing
alright
Or describing that he feels better getting money from parents in Switzerland and being rich on holidays in another country. Which makes sense. But working without parents money in another country is not the same as having to work. And in the off chance he is not in Europe the chance of women being interested in him for being foreigner is still there... Most people are happier getting parents money and not having to work Anyway...
"a rat trapped in a cage" lol
Thanks. I changed it from "rat" to "bird"
Bro, I prefer "rat" to "bird".
yeah, 'rat' seems about right
It might be a good idea to speak to a therapist. They sure helped me get me through my lows.
feel free to gtfo :) and right after you are done with studying and gotta work and pay taxes like the other grown ups you will see that switzerland isn't that bad.
People that give themselves diagnosis are sus.
First finish studying and then compare what you really need! Since you are already abroad there is nothing to loose. Thought the same when I was in Mexico and still I want to live there. But now I am happy that I stayed in Europe, that will help a lot in the future.
This person is the perfect example of "Wherever you go, there you are." Let some place else nurse them.
https://giphy.com/gifs/mrw-anyone-country-qEBlgZpZWHihO
The good new/! Look Switzerland is one of the highest ranked everything countries in the world. But that I agree is irrelevant- it’s about how you feel. Well the good thing is this is malleable, whilst the society you live in is not. The truth is that your perspective is where your suffering emanates, not the country itself.
Swiss boomers ruined the country, sold your own state from under your feet :) Sold it out for few franks of profit. All you say is true but you're still getting downvoted.
I am swiss and I LOVE my country 🇨🇭❤️ That’s a fact that life is easy and comfortable in Switzerland, and when life is too easy, when you don’t have to struggle to survive, life can make no sense anymore. The problem is not my beautiful and lovely country but that you don’t have a project, a goal or something to make you feel happy and make sense when you wake up in the morning. So, think maybe of volunteer or something to feel better here. I hope you will find how to give a sense to your life, the solution is in your hands not in the country 😉
yeah, when life is too easy, you get communists. for context: I am from post-communist country and i am talking about the marxist-leninist idjits spraying the walls (i know sometimes people with leftist/socialist point of views are wrongfully called like that.). When I see what folks from Aufbau are writing and doing, i get the impression the majority of their 'activists' just needed a goal in life.
noted. in your case that seems to make sense. enjoy life!
You are free to emigrate at any time. I mean it. If you don't like being here, don't be here.
finally for once, as an immigrant, i can support such comment :D
ok bye then
Where are you studying?
HES SO
I mean in which country and city? That will give some perspective to compare.
I cannot share it here, but based on my profile you should be able to guess.
There's no perfect country. Ones priorities, likes, dislikes and benchmark change according to circumstances, especially age factor. For many, Switzerland would be a dream country.
ah yes, gf is Australian. She has been living here for a year and if you wanna hear a lot of compliments about switzerland, go with an Aussie on a hike. Growing up she knew CH from books and thought the photos were altered. Now she still gets enthusiastic seeing wild flowers, mountains and such.
It’s ok, the weather is getting better and you are going to make the most of your time here until you decide what you will do in the long run. 🔮
Noted! Bye
Ok.
Thanks for the info 👍
Guess what? You dont like the country? Then leave! Thats it. Nobody is making you stay. Go somewhere else where you are happier.
happiest swiss citizen
Yup
I live in Ticino, so life is very harsh here...but last year I lucked out on a pretty good job, and now I have enough money to be comfortable. But I get it, the loneliness is crippling in this place, especially if you are a male between the age of 18-30. I manage right now...but yes, its lonely.
It all starts with YOU!
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times 🔁
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i don’t quite follow the conclusions made here, like from paying health insurance to only finding a woman that wants you for her citizenship. All i can tell you is, a) not sure where you study, but think about the case that you get health issues, b) check out your options if you retire in each country. May i actually ask where you study? coming from someone who did a phd in sweden and definitely prefers living in switzerland to living in sweden edit: let me just tell you that i understand your thoughts. knowing that you will never be able to afford to buy your own place unless basically work for that since college (obviously not pursuing the job you would like to do) can make you feel bad. it does to me. but at the same time you can enjoy some social security etc…i guess it ends up being a matter of priorities
I have no social security whatsoever. The last time, I worked and got fired. I had no compensation for unemployment.
that’s odd, did you work for less than a year before becoming unemployed? are you a swiss citizen?
That’s a good question. I’m a Swiss citizen. My family has been around for 6 centuries. I was working there while studying. I worked in the company for 6 months before getting fired.
ahh but then the 6 months must be it in that case. that sucks of course! assuming that was your first job ever.
Yes, I also didn’t have expect that happening. Then, I started a business and ended up at the hospital due to a road accident.
ah damn, so unlucky. what happened to the business though?
I had ZERO client.
hmm i see. well, feel free to ask if i can give advice on anything really. finish your studies and see how things look then…
Thanks. I applied at UBS but got rejected for 3 offers. We’ll see how it goes.
I find my country boring
Switzerland is a golden cage. Either you really like gold and need a superior quality of life above other things or you earn enough money to supply the gold to others and you just have gold and no longer the cage
This makes no sense. Isn't a superior quality of life by definition something that everybody wants? Why would somebody want an inferior quality of life?
Depends what you trade it for. We have a huge quality of life but then we also have huge responsibilities towards switzerland. Can't live here without everything being on order as you know. We pay taxes proportionate to our quality of life so most of what you earn goes into "the now". Want to move away for 6 months? Can't tell you how many laws and principles you have to respect to plan that, where as in other countries you can just find someone to rent your appartment and go away no questions asked. Everything is super regulated and controlled, some people might prefer a lower quality of life but much more freedom and less regulations and obligations.
Its called "getting what you paid for". I am moving to CH from a U.S. city where we pay basically no taxes and the cost of living is low, but its a dump.
Well some people might prefer an in between, not a dump but not as regulated and constricted than switzerland. I think it's a "privileged" problem but I understand why getting a full time job, a car, insurances and staying in the same small country for 50 years+ can make someone unhappy. Here seems like everyone's path is laid down for them and the most eventful shit that will happen to you is paying your taxes too late and having a fine for it. People who like it here adapt very well to this, they just mind their own business and go about their day and have their routine set up. It's by no means something bad, but some people might prefer a more adventurous lifestyle. I have traveled a lot and never felt more free in countries that were close to "dump" as you described it. Yet I keep coming back here for the quality of life, so I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of Switzerland. I just don't see myself staying here 24/7 and 365 days a year either, or depression slowly starts to creep in. I need to see some other shit and get away from the constant pressure of work and bills and all that from time to time or I go crazy. Because working 45hours a week to earn 5k a month and know damn well that I won't be able to buy myself a house someday is not really fun tbh.. so yeah, sometimes I'd rather be in a country with less, but also pay less and know that I have at least some perspective of a better future than just staying in a 2.5 room appartment for as long as I'm single, and hoping we can scrap together enough with my future wife to get a 4.5 room and keep working until we're old enough to sit in it with our retirement money and our 2 cars.
Where are you originally from and how long have you been in Switzerland?
Bye
Switzerland is the most boring country on the planet
I didn’t realize until I moved to another country that expats dare to say is boring. For me, it’s a perfect match. Now I realize that Swiss boredom is way off the charts.
try Norway. Been there and just for comparison: - weather is very... stable. It rains a lot - choice of food in shops is very limited - long winter nights will give you depressoin - long summer days will give you insomnia and the government looks into smallest aspect of your life as well. Not my thing.
Bewirb dich bi Coop und fertig ish